From ???@??? Mon Mar 03 12:31:37 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA19524 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 2 Mar 1997 06:19:12 +0100 Message-Id: <199703020519.AA19524@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <9.1B7E1B7D@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Sun, 2 Mar 1997 6:19:11 +0100 Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 00:01:14 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 27 Feb 1997 to 1 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 27 messages totalling 1024 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Beginners costume questions and stuff (fwd) (2) 2. Regency period, War of 1812 (3) 3. Aesthetic and reform Dress 4. Ren Faire costume competition 5. 15th century headgear 6. Fw: Smocking - how far back in time? 7. 15th century costume 8. Appropriate colour 9. merkin/murkin 10. Camlet and Looms 11. brocade and jacquard 12. Vintage Menswear 13. 1960's and Zonal waists and perceptions (2) 14. Costume Books 15. hats 16. 1966 wedding 17. 16th-century fabric reference 18. Beginners costume questions, puffed sleeves 19. 15th-century costume 20. Camlet 21. Mardis Gras 22. appropriate color 23. Costuming at Medieval Times, et.al. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:29:50 -0500 From: Gray Hunter Subject: Re: Beginners costume questions and stuff (fwd) I do costumes...not period "clothes" ....for film & theatre & don't really have expertise it one single time period but I'll throw in my 2 cents .... After all I've made lots of different period stuff for lots of different reasons. Anyway.... Seam finishes- It seems to me that if you're not sewing the entire garment by hand there's no reason you can't surge the SA's or use French seams. If you are going whole hog however I know that in Tudor thru Georgian times a garment made of velvet would most likely be lined throughout. Usually each pattern piece would be lined individually w/ the SAs turned inside each piece...like bag lining. Then the pieces were butted up together and stitched by hand. Many garments before say, 1790's were not sewn as well as we might like today. Remember that all that braid you see on garments before the sewing machine is there to cover clunky hand sewn seams as well as to be decorative. I've seen on 1840's gowns the raw edges simply overcast w/ a whip stitch. This being a logical & practical solution there's no reason to doubt it wasn't used since ancient times. Books and sleeves- Sleeve is a sleeve is a sleeve...thank you Gertrude Stein. To get the look you want you must cut it the way that makes it look that way. Then as now, the more fabric you take out from under the arm, the more the sleeve will hang close to the body. Many Elizabethan sleeves have shallow curves up top but they had to do what you have to do to get the right shape. The physics of fabric is still the same. In 600 however I would think that most sleeves were cut into the body...the T-shaped tunic. Do not underestimate the beauty of the T-shaped tunic. In the right fabric it can be as elegant as any set in sleeve. A pleat at the shoulder [where the seam would be] creates a lovely effect. Undergarments- Most early undergarments are cut in squares & rectangles. As they are often full & gathered or smocked this doesn't present fitting problems. If one was wealthy enough to afford expensive, embroidered underwear....one showed it off. Of course a touch of fine white linen spilling from a low neckline shows of a beautiful neck & shoulders well. Don't take my suggestions as gospel ....others into restoration or museum work have more knowledge than I. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:30:18 -0500 From: Gray Hunter Subject: Re: Regency period, War of 1812 My friend who collects vintage stuff has a pair of these shoes. They have no left or right & are very simple...3 pieces of silk & a sole. [If I remember correctly they are soft leather covered in pale pink silk.] There's a seam down the ankle & one down the center of the top of the shoe. The inside piece is seamless but the outside is split at the widest part & laces thru small hand worked eyelets They come up quite high...to the ankle bone where they are trimmed w/ short gold bullion fringe. This seems to me an easy thing to make if covering a ballet slipper, as suggested earlier. Yes, the toes are square. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:30:21 -0500 From: Eleanor Farrell Subject: Re: Aesthetic and reform Dress In response to Heidi Schultz' inquiry about references: _The Aesthetic Movement: Prelude to Art Nouveau_ by Elizabeth Aslin (1981: New York, Excalibur Books, ISBN 0-809673-097-2) includes a chapter on "The Fashionable Aesthete" and may be useful also, _With Grace and Favour: Victorian and Edwardian Fashion in America_, published by the Cincinnati Art Museum as a catalogue to one of their exhibits (1993, ISBN 0-931537-16-9), contains an excellent essay by Patricia Cunningham on "Healthful, Artistic, and Correct Dress." Hope these help! Eleanor Farrell emfarrell@earthlink.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:30:24 -0500 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: Ren Faire costume competition At 02:53 PM 2/27/97 -0500, you wrote: > >A question for those in the know... Does anyone know when or if there will >be a costume competition at Northern California Rennaissance Pleasure >Faire (Novato) this year? Northern Faire lost its sponsor for the costume competition (House of Fabrics, which is going through some {deserved} hard times), which is why there was no major competition last year. I heard that The Living History Center (NOT Renaissance Entertainment Corporation, which now owns the faire) will be trying to get a new sponsor. I would try phoning them; I don't have their number, but Information for San Rafael will have it. It seems unlikely that the prize will be a sewing machine or serger as in past years. Oh well, the year I won, I figured the value of the serger and the cash prizes didn't quite cover the expense of making the costume, but it looks good on a resume! Margo Anderson > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:30:27 -0500 From: Jennifer Markham Subject: Re: 15th century headgear >>>> Now we've got someone else interested in the 15th century on the list, I shall ask a question I was otherwise going to address just to Dave Key. >>>> Oops, no more lurking for me, either.=20 >>>> how valid are the horned linen head-dresses shown by van der Leyden et al for English wear - or should English women be wearing something else? Some of them are wearing gowns with gathered fronts and fur edging which (private communication) Dave = Key has said are fine for England. >>>> I happen to have a book of brass rubbings from the Victoria and Albert = museums. Judging by the 15th century ones, the English did not go in = for the damsel-in-distress pointy hats, but did have some with rounded = horns. The pattern in the rubbings seems to be the same for the earlier = cauls as for the horns, so it seems to me they may have "grown" out and = up as the fashion moved from the sidless surcoat to the gowns I think = you mean - close to the Houpelande, but with tighter or baggy sleeves = cuffed at the wrist instead of dags. The horns seem to extend a few inches above the crown of the head, and = the linen drapes mid-forehead over the front, following upward along the = line of the horns and then sometimes dipping in the back behind the = shoulders, sometimes staying at chin-level in the back. The other look which predominates is the gown I believe is called a = Kirtle - off the shoulders with a wide collar, _very_ tight sleeves with = enormous white cuffs. With this, the women wear either a small = squarish-cylindrical hat far back on the head with an elaborate = translucent veil supported by wires, or a cylindrical cap (again, far = back on the head) with a folded-back brim which hangs down past the = shoulders (You've probably seen this in other pictures as well). I can give specific years, etc. if requested. Jennifer Markham Allentown, PA in the SCA: Lady Anne Liese Wolkenhaar Shire of Eisenthal, East Kingdom ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:30:30 -0500 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Fw: Smocking - how far back in time? >> Does anyone have any information on how far back smocking goes? This is a reposting of an old post to h-costume that I made a year or two ago. My permission is given to repost it to another list in total: There are a number of what I believe are examples of smocking in "Lucas Cranach" and "The German Renaissance Woodcut" (which normally can only be found at a University, there is only one complete set publicly available in California that I know of). I tried to present here some examples from sources that most people can access. For the purpose of this discussion, I am defining the term smocking to refer to pleating fabric into even pleats by gathering and then embroidering over the top. This embroidery can be flexible and have elasticity, but can also be a decorative way to hold pleats in place. For those of you who have not smocked, the stitch chosen, how it is placed, and the tension used, controls the elasticity. I believe Durer shows some smocked shirts in other works. I don't generally consider the gathered shirt in his "self-portrait" as true smocking, though it might loosely fit into the definition above. The following are some of the examples that I base my opinion on (but not all, many of these paintings need to be seen in person): "Lucas Cranach" by Friedlander and Rosenberg, The Wellfleet Press, New Jersey, 1978 ISBN:1-55521-475-4 Possible smocked items: #13-St Dorothy, St. Agnes, St Cunegunde - chemise #80-Virgin and Child, the Child holding and Apple - chemise #81-Virgin giving suck - chemise #152-Von Brandenburg, Duke of Prussia-Shirt (maybe smocked) #155-The ill-match lovers - chemise #220-The Feast of Herod- chemise or placket #323-Portrait of Margrave-shirt (maybe smocked) #Sup15-Sup 18 Men's portraits - shirts (maybe smocked) "The complete woodcuts of Albrecht Durer" Dover Press Pg. 100-The knight and the landsknecht, 1497 "The Complete Etchings and Engravings of Albrecht Durer" Dover Press pg 166 - Melancolia I - smocked apron pg 159 - Peasant couple dancing - (not smocked, but a clear picture of a type apron which I have seen smocked at the top) Loose Woodcut Zeroxs (from The German woodcut series) Lucas von leydon - The dentist - chemise Edward Schoen- Distribution of foolscaps -1538 - chemise And the following two I consider the Most Clear representations by the way they are drawn and hang: Edward Schoen- Tailor as Lansquenet and Seamstress-1535- -sleeves Lucas Cranach the Elder-Beheading of John the babtist- 1505-sleeves Holbein - Portrait of Jacob Meyer - shirt Textiler Hausrat, Keidung und Haustextilien in Nurnberg von 1500-1600-by Jutta Zander-Seidel, Deutscher Kunstverlag 1990 ISBN:3-422-06067-7 (has duplicates of some previously mentioned, can be purchased at the Germanisches National Museum in Munchen, or the Bayerisches Museum in Nurnberg-this book is sort of the "janet arnold for german 16th cent. costuming and a bit more) There are some examples which look to be smocked with white thread on white fabric. I am not as sure about some of my men's shirt examples. I also have a theory that some of the pleated high-necked chemises are smocked on the back in white to hold the pleat, but just a theory, but that is how I add tension to cuffs. In Cranach, they show some smocking that is like Durer's, but some is not. The smocking is usually either in simple lines straight across, or in diamond patterns. I have never found picture smocking. What convinced me in the end was seeing some of these pictures in person. Many of the Cranach's are extremely large and a lot of detail is lost looking at a book. Of the two shirts with smocked bands around the sleeves, one is on a noblewoman and one of a seamstress campfollower in grubby clothing. I made one of these shirts using smocking and it looks pretty much like the woodcuts. There are several women with aprons that have smocked waistbands. (see Durer's Melancholia I). This type of apron is like a shorter skirt, with no banding trim (and is not, like many people think, a short overskirt). There are some "jumpsuit"-like aprons, built almost like a viking apron with a narrow top. The top is either smooth, a fabric yoke, or the fabric is smocked into a narrow band, shown in Durer's "peasant couple dancing". Certainly my opinion on this is based on interpretations of visual examples only and then "testing" those theories by creating the garments and then comparing the look and drape to the woodcuts/paintings. I would love to know if anyone has seen any written info on smocking in the 16th cent. or seen any existing examples. My German is poor at best, and my 16th cent. German even worse.... Julie Adams savaskan@sd.znet.com aka Juliana Neuneker Hirsch, OL Julie Adams http://www.idyllmtn.com/savaskan/homepage.html http://www.lgd.org/ Drache 5yr rough stud, Kirsche 5 yr smooth bitch - "karabash" Shimmi - 5 month smooth bitch Savaskan Anatolian Shepherd Dogs aka "choban kopegi", "kangal kopegi", "chomar" Jon - 3 yr old son-- ASD in training Liebshon - housecat (Kirsche is the better mouser...) and 3 little hens.... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:30:33 -0500 From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Re: 15th century costume There are lots of us - I think Caroline was speaking slightly with her tongue in her cheek when she said that - just get us started talking about the 15th century and you'll never shut us up!!!! Sally Ann ---------- From: Susannah Gort To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME Subject: Re: 15th century costume Date: 27 February 1997 16:42 > Now we've got someone else interested in the 15th century on the list, I > shall ask a question I was otherwise going to address just to Dave Key. > Aaah! No! I know at least two people besides myself who're interested in 15th century costume but haven't posted on it in a while, mainly because we didn't have any specific questions at the moment and nobody else was talking about it. Now I know why - people were assuming we weren't interested. Please don't keep it off the list! Susannah Gort ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:30:36 -0500 From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Re: Beginners costume questions and stuff (fwd) I speak on behalf of all of the list members, I'm sure , in saying how welcome you are. We were all beginners once and anyone who claims to be an expert in every detail of every period is telling great big fibs! Nothing's certain at this period but you might try the following approaches. Sew a flat seam then catch the seam allowance to the main fabric by means of a running stitch or a hem stitch. It will show on the right side - it should. If you hem it you can turn in the rough edge first but seam allowances are tiny. This, of course has a lot to do with the fact that their fabrics were very different to ours and modern fabrics may need a slightly bigger allowance. On felted wools you can overlap the two edges and sew them together with a running stitch but my modern sensibilities make this appear rather untidy. See HMSO's Clothing and Textiles book. I'm not sure how to describe this but the bottom of the armscye might be cut flat rather than rounded making the complete shape an arch rather than an oval. I have evidence for this but heaven knows where! This gives much more movement than an oval armscye but I think it's rather later than the date you quote for ordinary mortals. At that period I'd tend to cut a straight , square cut sleeve which obviously wouldn't fit the arm s you suggest. I'd sew the latter sleeve on (or it wouldn't work at all) and I might tie the former - again , there is evidence but I don't know where. (As the evidence is all pictorial it all suggests rather then proves). The women's undergarment sometimes showed and sometimes didn't, as far as I know. There is some evidence from Italian sources to cut it square with gores at the hip to hem and gussets under the arms. You can do what you like with the neck as long as you don't add a drawstring as some of us would have the screaming abdabs! All rather brief, I'm afraid. (Too early in the morning for me). E-mail me privately, Wendy, if I can be of more help. Best wishes, Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ---------- From: Wendy Robertson & Tim Weitzel To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME Subject: Beginners costume questions and stuff (fwd) Date: 27 February 1997 14:52 I am forwarding these questions for my sister, a new list member, who has been having trouble posting to the list. Wendy Robertson wcrobert@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: pnomail@BRATSHB.UWC.EDU Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 10:34:21 -0600 To: wendy-robertson@UIOWA.EDU Subject: Beginners costume questions and stuff Hello, I'm new to this list, and to historical sewing in general. As a dressmaker and pattern drafter, I have some degree of skill, and experience. I also have some questions. First, are beginner questions welcomed here? If they are, then please read on. If they are not, then I extend my apologies and will just keep my mouth shut and read my mail as it comes in. Do you have an FAQ? If any of these questions are covered there, just refer me. What follows is a fairly long post, with subject headings. The specific years in question are in ( ). I have recently started attending the SCA. I am interested in about 1400- the reformation, my husband is interested in the very early 600ish and the friend who introduced us is interested in the Middle Ages in general (i.e. toss something together using fabric purchased at St Vinnie's, go and have fun.) I have been trying to find the answers in various books, but to no avail. Seam finishes- Since the fabrics we have today, and the machines for making, sewing, and cleaning them are vastly different from what was available then, how do I finish seams? I have enough velvet scraps to make a variation of the Greenland dress, but it is acetate/rayon high-nap velvet and frays badly. As a dressmaker, for this purpose, I want to serge, and be done with it. What techniques would be correct? How was velvet handled? I can make the judgement call during construction on which ones the garment requires. Does silk velvet fray as badly? I have some felted wool crepe that still frays slightly. And an even-weave washable wool blend (from the stash so the price is right). This also frays. Again, what seam finishes? Books and sleeves- I have been reading books on the subjects of costumes and fashion covering the outside. I have books on reproducing costumes _for theatre_ that talk about the insides of garments, for stage use. Kohler's book with it's diagrams is my strongest resource for what I assume fairly accurate reproduction. Are there better sources? Kohler does not talk much about sleeve and armseye shapes. Should I use a standard curved cap set-in sleeve for all tight sleeves? The curved and arching sleeve cap and the tapered sleeves make for lots of fabric waste. (1400+) I have seen cutting diagrams with almost no fabric waste, but I can't recall the sleeve shape, or the time period. I also recall reading (in a theatre book) that sleeves were tied on, at the shoulder, but don't see proof. Undergarments- I haven't seen much discussion on the "lingerie" of the period. What is the cutting shape? What is the neckline. Looking at black and white pictures of statues, rubbings and art, I can't tell if the chemise shows at the neck and sleeve or is completely hidden. (1400-1500) It looks like some are each way. Is it wearer's choice, depending on modesty and temperature? Thanks for bearing with me through this post. I appreciate any help and guidance given to me while I learn new skills. Thanks muchly. DJ DJ on her husband's account ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:30:38 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: Appropriate colour In a message dated 97-02-27 14:55:18 EST, meowhaus@pacbell.net (noelle) writes: > > I am currently in the middle of reading the collected Mabinogian > (Welsh/Gaelic myths and legends) in their "most original" form. In one, > the heroine in described as wearing a dress of "flame coloured silk." > While it is more likely that this was a noile, or some similarly raw > weave, At least this is decent documentation on the colour . .. =) > > Yours, > > Noelle > Presume the silk is as finely finished as you would like it. Slubby silk? Your mother, who taught you to spin, would slap you. Maggie Mairghread-Ros FitzGarret of Desmond, O.L. (Caid) Mary Countess of Southampton ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:30:41 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: merkin/murkin In a message dated 97-02-27 14:55:22 EST, RMITCHELL@washjeff.edu writes: > > As President Johnson used to say: Mah fellow Murkins ... > > Lloyd Mitchell > LOL, very very twisted. Possibly sprained. Maggie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:30:44 -0500 From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Camlet and Looms Re: Camlet I've come across 'chamlet' in Edward IV's Wardrobe Accounts (on the web at http://www.webcom.com/blanchrd/bookcase/wardrobe/ward18.html (not the index page, but it will get you in there)) in a context which implies its a silk - used as a lining like satyn, sarsanet, or damask. Re: Brocade/Jacquard No-one would deny that fabrics with intrinsic (raised) patterns, often called brocades in English, were being woven very early, particularly in places like Byzantium and a little later the Arab world. This was mainly silk and produced very expensive cloth, presumably by specialist weavers on draw-looms. However, the term "Jacquard" relates to a particular apparatus with perforated cards, fitted to the loom to facilitate the weaving of figured fabrics, named after the inventor. This made figured fabrics cheaper. I admit I don't have a date on him, but I understood this was 17th century at the earliest. I have certainly never come across any mention of a medieval loom using perforated cards. So, the jacquard attachment was invented to make brocades easier (cheaper) to weave. To add to Donna's interesting explanation, not all brocades are jacquards and the terms drawloom and jacquard loom are not synonymous. There may well be no difference in the final fabric (anyone handweaving brocade out there?), but the term 'jacquard' would be inappropriate through the medieval period. I hope this clarifies terminology. Re: Wedding Rings Inger said >(I guess I could have worn both on my left, butmost people would find that >a bit odd...) This makes me wonder, could thechoise between right and left >hand for the wedding ring have something to dowith wearing or not wearing >additional rings at some point when fashion was set? In England, if you are wearing both engagement and wedding rings, its usually both on the third finger of the left hand (now - don't know when it started). I have read in the 16th century that if you could not afford a wedding ring you would be lent one for the ceremony that would then be handed back to the priest for the next wedding. I understood that the choice of finger and hand related to a medieval belief (Galen?) that a vein ran straight from there to the heart, so carrying affection. One term for wearing an outer garment sideways was 'coley westwards' (16th century English) - no, I don't know where that came from! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:30:47 -0500 From: Wendy Purcell Subject: Re: Regency period, War of 1812 Yup on the shoes. About a year ago, I made a re-creation British naval uniform (yeah, okay, male but you didn't specify sex) and had a lot of success with the shoes by adapting a pair of soft, leather slip-ons. I removed the elastic from inside the upper and placed a buckle and strap over the top of each shoe to fasten it. I was lucky to find some large, metal belt buckles in an op shop. A note on the buckles: most illustrations suggest brass or gold buckles for naval uniforms of the time when, in fact, steel was quite common. -CHRISTOPHER BALLIS (still tryna convince netspace it's his account, not Wendy's - sigh). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:30:49 -0500 From: Stone Subject: brocade and jacquard Please excuse if this info has alread been covered as I get h-costume in digest and am usually a day or so behind in the discussion. Brocade as a noun is widely used to cover a wide variety of pattern or fiqured fabrics, usually silk. It's definition differs in the details though. Many people refer to brocade as a patterned fabric using gold or silver threads. It's general use connotes, however, nothing more specific than a woven-in pattern. Brocade as a verb, as in brocaded or brocading, implies structural elements: a compound weave with patterning achieved by means of supplimentary elements, most specifically by supplimentary wefts. Textile historians continue to argue whether brocading can apply to selvedge to selvedge, continuous pattern wefts or whether it should refer to discontinuous wefts only. (Refer to Irene Emery's "The Primary Structures of Fabrics") Brocades used in this sense would not necessarily be reversible as the supplimental wefts can, and usually do, float behind within the individual design elements or between designs. Jacquard refers only to any fabric woven on a loom with a jacquard attatchement. The jacquard attatchment was introduced in 1805 by Joseph Marie Jacquard, though similar work towards the same goal was done by Basile Bouchon in 1725, Falcon in 1728 and Jacques de Vaucanson in 1745. The jacquard looms were greeted with hostility by the French weavers of the 19th century who feared that their jobs were at stake, though it led to the revitilization of the industry. Here's how it works: The jacquard weaver did not have to be a skilled weaver, however " [he] did have to be skilled in stting up the loom. First, the design was copied onto squared drafting paper. Then a card was punched for each pick to show the warp to be raised; the number of cards equaled the nuber of picks in one design repeat. The cards were laced together and placed on a cylinder. As the cylinder turned, each card was pressed against a set of horizontal needlels, each connectied to a separate vertical hook that raised or lowered the warp it controlled. The cards could be taken off the loom, stored, and used again whenever that particular pattern was wanted." (Wilson, "History or Textiles") ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:30:53 -0500 From: Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living Subject: Re: Vintage Menswear At 07:20 PM 2/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >Mary Weiss wrote: > >>Can anyone recommend a website or shop which specializes in VERY FINE >>vintage accessories for men? We have requests for the following items and >>would appreciate a lead: .............................................. I do have some men's costume and accessories on my Reflections of the Past site. I just added a pair of men's early 19th C. braces (suspenders) and there are berlinwork slippers and an embroidered vest. These could be too early since you did say "vintage". ***************************************************** Joanne Haug "Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living" http://www.victoriana.com and "Reflections of the Past, Antique Costume & Textiles" http://www.victoriana.com/antiques registry@victoriana.com Voice/Fax(216)835-6924 ***************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:30:57 -0500 From: Roxann Barber Subject: Re: 1960's and Zonal waists and perceptions LuAnn Mason wrote: > You know I had a thought (always dangerous, I know! :-) ): I wonder > whether the "conformity" we seen in women's clothing in the 1860's is > true "conformity", or if WE don't see the differences in their dresses > 130 years later, because of the time lapse. > BUT I think we may be overlooking the details that make the dress "speak". > Just because things look monotonously similar to US, doesn't mean they > were similar to THEM... > > So I guess my question is: was it conformity, or was it perception? The value, as always, is in the asking, not necessarily the answering.... Excellent point LuAnn, just look at the discussion of the 1960's going on right now and the different perceptions of the people who actually wore the clothes. Slight time and regional variances can make a huge difference in what was worn, how, when and for how long. And the different perceptions of the wearer and the viewer, contemporary or in retrospect. Of course this is from one who gets confused when Star Trek goes through a time warp! Is it Memorex or is it........... Roxy Barber ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:30:59 -0500 From: Elizabeth Coffey Subject: Re: Regency period, War of 1812 Also continuing on Fran's thought on ballet slippers. I have taken the ballen slippers to my local shoe repair person who adds a leather sole and very small heal to the ballet slipper in addition to the ties. Again they are not identical, but an reasonably priced alternative. You might consider taking a picture of what you want to the repair place. Our repair person around here has done enough pairs, she knows what to do. On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Frances Grimble wrote: > Sheila, > > Has anyone on the list had luck in manufacturing shoes, > > particularly the light weight leather flats of the period. > > For the thin shoes I would recommend ballet slippers. They are not > identical to early 19th-century shoes--the latter often had squarer > toes and long ribbon ties, though you can sew those on. But ballet > slippers look pretty good and are available in a wide range of sizes, > inexpensive, and sturdier than they look. > > Fran Grimble > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:31:02 -0500 From: Kathleen Songal Subject: Costume Books A reference book that might be of interest to 1812 costume fans is called "The Age of Napoleon, Costume from Revolution to Empire 1789-1815", by the Metropolitan Museum of Art, Katell le Bourhis, General Editor. Published 1989. ISBN 0-87099-570-7. It contains 270pp. I counted the pics (might be off by one or two). There are 38 different women's outfits. There are 23 different pics of men's attire (plus uniforms, helmets, etc). In addition, there are close-ups of some of these same outfits making for more pics. There are chapters on jewelry, church vestments, silks, uniforms, the emperors' wardrobe, and American fashion with seven fashion plates from fashion periodicals of the day. Altogether there are 227 pictures. I am curious about four other books that I have not seen. Can anyone give a short critique on any of the following books? Please include approximate number of actual clothing pictured. Le Costume-Consulat-Empire, by Madeleine Delpierre, 1990. Ancien Regime-Premier Empire 1785-1805, 1989. Modes and Revolutions 1780-1804 Moden 1790-1849, by Anderson. Sincerely, Kathy Songal asongal@wincom.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:31:05 -0500 From: Tim Allison Subject: hats Amazon has hat patterns ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:31:08 -0500 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: 1966 wedding I can't stand it anymore so I have to put my 2c in. I got married in Dec. 1966 (but I was *very* young!) in Santa Cruz (possibly even hipper than Berkeley or San Fran.) Very small, informal wedding. My dress was kneelength, off the rack, but classic-looking. Winter white in a heavy cotton knit/weave -- I liked to think of it as Givenchy-esque. (Audrey Hepburn was always my idol) White lace mantilla-type "veil", bone shoes, off-white stockings, and of course, pearls. My mom, my attendant and I all had corsages instead of bouquets. I think this look was far more typical of the "60's" than the weird hippy look or the extreme fashion-victim look of Nehru jacket for groom and mini-skirt, go-go boots for bride. (I know people now who won't let anyone see their wedding pictures because they're embarrassed) The young lady who wants to get married in the 60's look might not think it so cool in 20-30 yrs.! We were married in a church, chosen primarily for its architecture and proximity to my mothers house, where the small reception was held. We had chocolate cake and the punch was made with 150 Blue Flame rum! One of my cousins was married the same year and another one the following year (i.e. 1967) -- they both went *whole hog*! Big church wedding, Big fancy dress, veil, train 3-4 tier wedding cake. the whole bit. Weird to think I'm contributing to history here. cheers to all Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu p.s. "Camlet" (in response to another question) is camelhair or mohair, depending. *never* felt. I have a Textile Museum Journal at home with a good reference -- I'll try to remember to look it up. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:31:33 -0500 From: Susan Carter Subject: Re: 16th-century fabric reference Laura, I can't lay my hands on the exact issue but the journal of the Textile Museum in DC had an excellent article on camblet/camlet within the last few years. The possible animal association is not camel but goat, as in mohair. It seems to me the name has something to do with the native name for the goat or the fabric? If I turn up the exact citation within over the weekend I'll post it. Good luck, Su Carter, Williamsburg, VA _ sucarter@msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:31:45 -0500 From: Nick Worthington & Jamie Nikkel Subject: Re: Beginners costume questions, puffed sleeves > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: pnomail@BRATSHB.UWC.EDU > Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 10:34:21 -0600 > To: wendy-robertson@UIOWA.EDU > Subject: Beginners costume questions and stuff > > Hello, > > I'm new to this list, and to historical sewing in general. As a dressmaker > and pattern drafter, I have some degree of skill, and experience. I also > have some questions. > snipped for space > > I have recently started attending the SCA. I am interested in about 1400- > the reformation, my husband is interested in the very early 600ish and the > friend who introduced us is interested in the Middle Ages in general (i.e. > toss something together using fabric purchased at St Vinnie's, go and have > fun.) I have been trying to find the answers in various books, but to no > avail. the following interesting and detailed question about clothing constuction techniques snipped for space and because I have no good answers for her I think you might find a book called the Development of Costume by Naomi Tarrant (now available in an American paperback edition, ISBN 0-415-08019-3) of interest. It won't give you much in the way of specific instructions on how to make any particular garment; what is does do is give a very good structural history of clothing: how basic shapes developed, how constuction techniques developed (including the historical seam finishings you were asking about). I think it is has the sort of background info that is helpful to know when you are looking at period sources and trying to figure out what is going on with the garments depicted. IMHO, of course. > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:55:10 -0500 > From: SaraFern@aol.com > Subject: Re: period impressions > > Many portraits during this time period (1830's) were, similar to modern > times, people wearing their best clothes, but from books such as Workwoman's > guide, pictures like Best's and patterns of originals like Lowell Mill girl's > dress from Past Patterns - it would seem that many servants were dressed in > puffed sleeves - even though it is hard to do any work in puffed sleeves (I > know!) > > I would hazzard a guess that they often wanted to "dress above their rank" - > perhaps they received castoffs or attempted their own creations from > observing what the ladies of the house were wearing. Similar to today, > people often wear what is looked favorably upon by society, not necessarily > what is comfortable (ever try putting dishes away on high shelves while > wearing sleeve puffs!) > While it is difficult, well, impossible really, to argue with someone's personal experience in something like this, I have to say that mine differs from that expressed above. I've made the puffed sleeve Lowell Mill girls's dress. I did the sleeve and the armhole straight off the pattern. I've worn it to dance in (while it was new), to do camp work in (after it became faded.) I once rowed a boat all around Stowe Lake in it. I did not find the sleeves at all restricting. It seems to me that puffed sleeves are less inhibiting to movement than tightly fitted ones can be. (Thinking of all the Renaissance fencers in big puffy sleeves.) Anyway, as in most things Your Milage May Vary. Jamie Nikkel ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:31:59 -0500 From: Gaelscot@aol.com Subject: 15th-century costume Add me to the ranks of people interested in 15th-century costume! I am sadly lacking in all but the basics, and would be interested in anything at all. (If anyone is waiting for questions, I've got plenty!) If only there were a whole list just devoted to it!!!! Okay, so here's a question. What fabrics would upper-class clothing be made of? Just silk and wool? How about linen -- was it ever used for outerwear? What about for those gowns that are worn over the chemise for casual outerwear but also worn under the really fancy stuff? What were THEY made of? And how about men's clothing? Gail Finke ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 17:45:00 -0500 From: Kat Hargus Subject: Camlet According to Doreen Yarwood "The Encyclopedia of World Costume" : Camlet Appears in English in different forms - camblet. chamlyt, camelot. In early European history, the word was associated with fabrics made from camel's hair, but before this it probably originated from the Arabic words khamalat or khaml, meaning the nap or surface of the cloth. In the seventeen and eighteen centuries camelot, according to Samuel Johnson, referred to a fabric of a mixture of silk or velvet with camel's hair. By the nineteenth century camelot refers to fabrics made from fibres of the angora goat. In early times the name was given to some beautiful, costly fabrics of silk and wool. It is not established whether camel's hair was employed in the material, but certainly that of the angora goat was incorporated. Kat Hargus, owner, Making Time www.makingtime.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 17:50:19 -0500 From: Mary Ann Westfield Subject: Mardis Gras I was wondering if anyone could help me find information on the costumes for Mardis Gras back in the beginning (1830ish I think). I've tried searching the net a little, but am having little luck. Thank you! -- Mary Ann mawestfield@hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 17:50:26 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: 1960's and Zonal waists and perceptions In a message dated 97-03-01 11:32:05 EST, x90barber11@wmich.edu (Roxann Barber) writes: > > > So I guess my question is: was it conformity, or was it perception? The > value, as always, is in the asking, not necessarily the answering.... > > Excellent point LuAnn, just look at the discussion of the 1960's going > on right now and the different perceptions of the people who actually > wore the clothes. You know, you're right! Does this mean even primary sources are suspect? :::holding her head in her hands in despair::::::: No wait, there's another word for this kind of testamentary documentation. Maybe there's hope after all. MaggiRos ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 17:50:30 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: appropriate color Leafing through Herald's Renaissance Dress In Italy 1400-1500, I'd say the orangey-red is OK, and I saw a few monocromes--or at least shaded, but the brocades seem to all be heavy weight, looking like furniture fabric of today. Allison ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 17:50:33 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: Re: Costuming at Medieval Times, et.al. On Fri, 21 Feb 1997 17:29:00 -0500 Susan Carroll-Clark writes: >Greetings! > >> Do the folks here who have more contact with the needs of a >>commerical market, have any insight on why the restaurants would >dress >>their allegedly medieval wait-staff in costumes hundreds of years >removed >>from their target era? > >It's very simple. They don't care a whit about historical >authenticity. Now, I have a related question. Of course, sex sells, and the restaurants don't care about authenticity, but why do so many movies/plays/operas et al do such a terribly un-authentic job? The professional costumers I have encountered are intelligent people who love what they do. How can there be so many others who can't seem to find it relevant to pick up a couple of good costume books and look at some art reproductions of the appropriate time? I went to an opera in Pittsburgh last week-end that really had my teeth on edge. Act 3 was good, but act 1 had women's dresses from 5 different times--the cast had 5 women--looked like "grab something out of the costume room fast, we go on in 5 minutes". Yes, it gives us a good laugh when the 'armor' from Excaliber floats downstream, but it seems to me really insulting--as though none of us had the wit, education, information--whatever it takes to be anything but a mental couch potato. (Actually, I do spend a lot of time on the couch, but I've got a book on my lap.) Do they think we don't know? Don't care? OK, 'Indignation off'. Allison ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 27 Feb 1997 to 1 Mar 1997 *************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Mar 03 12:31:38 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA22738 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 3 Mar 1997 06:18:51 +0100 Message-Id: <199703030518.AA22738@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <8.396FA44D@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 6:18:50 +0100 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 00:01:14 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 1 Mar 1997 to 2 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 6 messages totalling 146 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Costumes for Period Theater 2. 1960's and Zonal waists and perceptions 3. Costuming at Medieval Times, et.al. 4. Mardis Gras 5. lowell mill girl dress and puffed sleeves 6. JANE AUSTEN - BOOK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 10:40:52 -0500 From: J&B Subject: Re: Costumes for Period Theater > I went to an opera in Pittsburgh last week-end that really had my teeth > on edge. Act 3 was good, but act 1 had women's dresses from 5 different > times--the cast had 5 women--looked like "grab something out of the > costume room fast, we go on in 5 minutes". > Allison Dear Allison- Opera productions on a tight budget often put together costumes for a particular show out of stock - thus the "thrown together look." There is of course, a difference between period clothing and period stage costumes; what was worn on the stage in the 18thc for example was not what was worn in private life. I myself choreograph for a Minneapolis based opera company that recreates 17th and 18th c theatre costumes, as well as dance, scenery, music and acting and gesture style. Is there anyone else in this group who is interested particularly in costumes as used in period theaters? I'd love to hear from you! Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 10:40:55 -0500 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: 1960's and Zonal waists and perceptions > Does this mean even primary sources are suspect? Primary sources are absolutely suspect, in the sense that they should never be accepted without analysis and comparison to other sources, any more than secondary sources. For example, fashion advice often focuses on styles and attitudes toward fashion that were being promoted by the writers. Even if the source asserts "such-and-such is always done/worn," that does not guarantee it is true. Few people are 100% objective; they usually have some axe to grind, or some bias, whether consciously or not. Later written or oral accounts of styles (as you've seen in the 1960s discussion) can be vague because many people's memories fade and they get mixed up on their dates. Fran Grimble Author of _After a Fashion: How to Reproduce, Restore, and Wear Vintage Styles_ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 10:40:58 -0500 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: Costuming at Medieval Times, et.al. > Now, I have a related question. Of course, sex sells, and the > restaurants don't care about authenticity, but why do so many > movies/plays/operas et al do such a terribly un-authentic job? The > professional costumers I have encountered are intelligent people who love > what they do. How can there be so many others who can't seem to find it > relevant to pick up a couple of good costume books and look at some art > reproductions of the appropriate time? This question has been discussed on h-costume before. Basically, theater, film, and opera producers have different goals than museums. They are trying to produce good and appealing drama, and this may or may not involve "accurate" costuming. It's not that theatrical costumers are inept. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 10:41:15 -0500 From: "William B. Birner" Subject: Re: Mardis Gras At 05:50 PM 3/1/97 -0500, Mary Ann Westfield wrote: >I was wondering if anyone could help me find information on the costumes >for Mardis Gras back in the beginning (1830ish I think). > >I've tried searching the net a little, but am having little luck. > >Thank you! >-- >Mary Ann >mawestfield@hotmail.com Contect the Special Collections Librarian at Tulane University, New Orleans. I think they have some early materials. I'll see if I have any "ancient" pictorials. Ciao, Bill ------------- wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 20:36:06 -0500 From: SaraFern@aol.com Subject: Re: lowell mill girl dress and puffed sleeves Wow! Rowing in the lowell girl dress - I'm impressed. If you don't mind me asking - what do you hold your sleeve out with and what are they filled with - I prefer down in my sleeve puffs, but it is a bit expensive. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 20:36:40 -0500 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: JANE AUSTEN - BOOK Nancy Saputo wrote: > > __JANE AUSTEN: IN STYLE__, By Susan Watkins > > I just purchased the above-entitled book (published1990, ISBN No. > 0-500-27900-4). It is a treasure trove of fashion plates, oil paintings, > period rooms, food, fabric photos, manor houses, etc.! > > Quoting the PREFACE: "__Jane Austen: In Style__ offers an opportunity to > wander, to gaze and to gain an almost tactile understanding of this > world--the world of Jane Austen." > > Nancy Saputo Fran Grimble reviewed this book for RAGS and said (in part) "The text is rather disapointing. Although it is well written it includes some errors: Austen fans will be unsetled by references that confuse which character belongs in which novel...Historic dancers weill be annoyed...Costume Historians will be puzzled..." etc. She says that correct information is available in more in depth , also well-illustrated books. i.e. it is pretty but it is not terribly accurate. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 1 Mar 1997 to 2 Mar 1997 ************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Mar 04 13:44:46 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA01762 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 4 Mar 1997 06:27:11 +0100 Message-Id: <199703040527.AA01762@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <8.8D6505A5@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 6:27:09 +0100 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:03:09 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Mar 1997 to 3 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 25 messages totalling 1103 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Mystery Accessory. Again. 2. Fans (2) 3. lowell mill girl dress and puffed sleeves (2) 4. 1812 (Off-Topic) 5. mail list help 6. Williamsburg stockings 7. SEams 8. Horsehair 9. Thanks 10. Resent mail.... 11. Confessions of a Regency shoe-aholic 12. Camlet; was 16th c. Fabric reference 13. 1930s patterns 14. SPRINGTIME SALE @ SUSANNAH S! 15. Mens & Childrens Sale Items 16. FABRIC & PATTERN SALE @ SUSANNAH S 17. 196os again 18. 1966 wedding 19. Celtic? Rings 20. JANE AUSTEN - BOOK 21. A question on what was "scandalous". 22. Pattern Drafting 23. Bonnets, Hats and Other Head Coverings.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:13:20 -0500 From: Robin Hill Subject: Mystery Accessory. Again. I may have failed to pique anyone's interest the first time, but, undaunted, I try again, this time with references to visual aids. Some weeks ago, I submitted this query: ------------ Here is a question I've had for years: The painting called "The Long Engagement," by Arthur Hughes, shows two young people enjoying a moment of emotional suffering in a forest. She is wearing a short purple velvet cape over her dress, and there is a bundle of lavender velvet showing between his trousers and her skirt. What in the world is it? A bonnet on a stick? A cloak for the spaniel? A part of her dress that I don't understand? A matching ghost? A sporran run wild? Hughes was a Pre-Raphaelite, or at least a Pre-Raph wannabe--right?--so this is British, mid-to-late 19th-century. ------------ I have since found a rendering on the WWWeb, thanks to FrogPotPie: http://www.bestweb.net:80/~froggy/page13t.htm It shows only the top half of the painting, but it might be enough. There's also a book, "The Restless Century," by William Gaunt, that has this painting on the cover, but, again, not a full version. And, if you're in Birmingham--the one in the Midlands, not Alabama--you can see it in your local museum. Having looked at it for some time in my old poster version, it occurred to me that it might be something hanging from her wrist, but I see no strap. Notice that all four hands are visible (one of his is overhead in the tree branches). Someone out there, I just know it, can take one glance and say, graciously concealing her contempt, "Why, that's just a Welsh reticular demi-wimple" or some such thing. --- Robin Hill hill@uwyo.edu (307)766-5289 Department of Computer Science, University of Wyoming ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:13:29 -0500 From: Broneske Subject: Fans I have a question regarding fans, which I was asked the other day and wasn't quite sure what to reply. Are the little round, unfolding paper fans with the metal handle appropriate for 1860's usage? ---- / \ / \ \ ______ / | | Joan Broneske unicorn@softcom.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:13:33 -0500 From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Re: lowell mill girl dress and puffed sleeves At 08:36 PM 3/2/97 -0500, SaraFern@aol.com wrote: >Wow! Rowing in the lowell girl dress - I'm impressed. >If you don't mind me asking - what do you hold your sleeve out with and what >are they filled with - I prefer down in my sleeve puffs, but it is a bit >expensive. > The ladies I know who have made the Lowell Mill Girl dress don't wear sleeve puffs. It looks just fine. Joan Jurancich Sacramento, California joanj@quiknet.com ================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:13:41 -0500 From: Elizabeth Pruyn Subject: Re: 1812 (Off-Topic) Hi there, In May my husband and I will be attending a themed Ball circa 1812. There is to be a potluck before the dance and I would like to bring something appropriate to the theme/timeframe. My problem is that I don't have any American cookbooks for that time. Could someone involved in 1812 re-enactment send me some suggestions fot titles off-line? Or should I use my Jane Austen and Georgian cookbooks? Thanks, Elizabeth Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? Well, she would have been the paint brush..." - Dawn French ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:13:54 -0500 From: Gwnvr@aol.com Subject: mail list help Can Anyone give me the address for the fantasy costume mail list? Our local high school drama dept is doing "Macbeth" as sort of "Road Warrior/Mad Max" meets Shakespeare...(I've been trying to help make breast plates out of old pie tins...how that for a visual image?) the things i get myself into... Jennifer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:13:59 -0500 From: Nick Worthington & Jamie Nikkel Subject: Re: lowell mill girl dress and puffed sleeves > > Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 20:36:06 -0500 > From: SaraFern@aol.com > Subject: Re: lowell mill girl dress and puffed sleeves > > Wow! Rowing in the lowell girl dress - I'm impressed. > If you don't mind me asking - what do you hold your sleeve out with and what > are they filled with - I prefer down in my sleeve puffs, but it is a bit > expensive. > > ------------------------------ Layers of gathered tulle. Starching the sleeve helps too. --Jamie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:14:05 -0500 From: "Diana H." Subject: Williamsburg stockings Hello fellow costume enthusiasts! I live in California and recently went to one of the Living History Days at Sutter's Fort that Joan J. mentioned a few weeks ago. The docents were great and the facility itself very interesting to wander around. A nice few hours to spend if you happen to be in the area. While I was there, I bought a pair of (mostly) cotton stockings that come to above the knee. But....they only had one color--blue. I was told that they also come in 4 other colors and that they are made in *Williamsburg, VA*. Does anyone know how I could order some more of these? The contain 75% cotton and 25% nylon and I think they may even be made in *Colonial Williamsburg*. Does somebody offer them in a catalog? Can I get them straight from the company? Any leads or help would be very greatly appreciated! Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:14:38 -0500 From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: SEams For the beginner - of course we'll answer sensible questions like yours. The ones that get people irritated are the 'please tell me everything about x'! Just to explain why (quickly) a) it takes too long (on any subject) b) you need pictures and c) if I knew that much I'd be writing books and making a fortune (!) For authentic period seams (1100 - 1450), the Museum of London book on Textiles is the best source. Anything by Janet Arnold is in there close (yes, I know much of her work is later). The other books in the series are also superb - Dress Accessories, Shoes and Patterns and Knives and Scabbards. However, I did want to comment on Gray Hunter's comments >Seam finishes-It seems to me that if you're not sewing the entire garment >by hand there'sno reason you can't surge the SA's or use French seams. Plus, if I remember the original query correctly, it related to acrylic velvet, so I don't see why the seam edges shouldn't be finished, or the seams machine sewn. If you are going to the effort to make the construction as close to the original as possible it would seem sensible to me to use fabric as close as possible as well. >If >you are goingwhole hog however I know that in Tudor thru Georgian >times a garment made ofvelvet would most likely be lined throughout. >Usually each pattern piecewould be lined individually. Well, there are different ways of lining, and Janet Arnold shows other ways as well. There is flat lining (where the lining is treated as if it were part of the top fabric) and bag lining as well, where you make two garments, one inside out from the other and sew the two together - good for velvet! >Remember that all that braid you see on garments before the sewing machine >is there to cover clunky hand sewn seams as well as to be decorative. This is what I really have to disagree with, certainly for the 15th and 16th centuries, which is what I know about, I can't comment on Georgian. Virtually all outer garments were made by professional tailors who spent their lives, and earned their living, handsewing, sometimes for people who could afford extremely expensive cloth. Most modern hand sewing may be 'clunky', because the people doing it have very little practice; there is no reason to assume that was the case in the past, or even today amongst those who do a lot of hand sewing. (I will declare an interest here, all my period stuff, and a lot of my modern clothes, are handsewn). Not only are there no signs of 'clunky' sewing in pictures of clothes of the 15th and 16th century, in the original examples of sewing I have examined (mostly embroidery to be fair) the standard of sewing is far higher than modern machine sewing, even in garments probably made domestically (shirts, coifs etc). I can't see any reason why domestic sewing would be of a higher standard than professional. Garments in the 15th century don't have 'all that braid', there is in fact very little decoration; usually around the hem, cuffs and neck - sometimes up centre front. When highly decorated surfaces do come in, late 16th century in England, the braid is not focused over seam lines. Indeed it is not uncommon for the braid to be at right angles to the seam lines! Apart from defending the honour of our predecessors who made the originals of the clothes, I don't think it does anyone a service suggesting that poorly made clothes are appropriate. Most of the garments I've seen, machine or handsewn, suggest the maker should strive for higher standards rather than settle for lower - and I do not except my own attempts. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:14:35 -0500 From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Horsehair Some medieval garments were, apparently, stuffed with horsehair - particularly arming caps and aketons. Excuse my ignorance, but would this be the sort of horsehair you brush off the animal when you're grooming it or something else? Many thanks, Sally Ann Chandler s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:14:41 -0500 From: laura yungblut Subject: Thanks Thanks to those who replied to my request about information on camlet. Could someone please refresh my memory on how to subscribe to this list so I can tell my friend -- and he can ask his fabric questions himself? ;-) Laura Yungblut Dept. History Univ. Dayton yungblut@checkov.hm.udayton.edu ******************************************** Domina Misericordia non domi erit hac nocte. Sic hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes. ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:14:46 -0500 From: David Key Subject: Resent mail.... Subject:C15th English Headress Dear Caroline (et al), You said that ... >Given we have so few sources for 15th century England, so most of the >reference material used is Flemish, how valid are the horned linen >head-dresses shown by van der Leyden et al for English wear - or >should English women be wearing something else? Some of them are >wearing gowns with gathered fronts and fur edging which (private >communication) Dave Key has said are fine for England. Now I'm feeling paranoid ... but hopefully this quick post will help stir up the debate if nothing else ... >There are quite a lot of variants in the >head-dresses, but the one I'm specifically looking at is of the >variant which appear to be made in (at least) two parts - a 'base' >with two horns rising above the ears, which completely cover the >hair and ears. This is draped with a fine linen cloth which goes down >to the eyebrows over the face and over the shoulders at the front - >probably about the same level at the back. > >Caroline I'm trying to recall the precise illustrations you mean but ... assuming I've got the right end of the stick ... the completely linen covered 'horned' headresses seen in some Flemish illustrations do seem to be a relatively common variation on the Caul used in the C14th. They look like a wire framed linen pocket almost certainly designed to retain the coiled hair. Similar frames, without the solid linen covering also appear in other illustrations. On top of this 'horned' frame a kerchief is draped and pinned in place. Possibly a wimple is also attached, Margaret Scott suggests that the pinning of the wimple to the 'horned headress' just below the ears is a particularly Bruges fashion ... possible, as other illustrations seem to show the wimple passing behind the ears but I wouldn't like to be to definitive on that one. Now ... as to England. There are numerous funeral effiges which show English women wearing a variation of this 'Flemish' style. The Rous roll of c.1480 attempts to show changing fashions to describe the history of the Earls of Warwick ... in several of the illustrations the coiled hair necessary for the hornned headress is clearly visible for the 'earlier' women. This style being replaced by the 'butterfly' headress with short hennin, suspension wires & fine kerchief drapped over which became fashionable in England in the c.1470's & 1480's. The horned headresses do appear to have been worn in England throughout the 1440s- 1470s although they changed in style & structure somewhat & in their place in the 'fashion hierarchy'. By the later part of the period they had become respectable & conservative (which is NOT the same as old fashioned). The horns (if I remember correctly) moved from low horns just above the ear to a more raised position on the sides, but still low. The kerchief was still draped across the top, and, from the folds, appears to have been pinned at the top/back of the horns, causing them to fold & fall in 2 distinct folds at the back. Most English illustrations show these kerchiefs just reaching the shoulders & lacking much of the bulk of their Flemish & particularly German counterparts. I'll try & check what I've just written later tonight ... but corrections are more than welcome (even if I wind up sulking for a day or two). As a final add on ...don't forget that the Museum of London book on dress acccessories has some examples of (admittedly slightly earlier) silk covered wire which is almost certainly for the cauls. Similarly there is evidence for the continued importation of "caul wire" into London in 1480. Whether this was used for 'cauls' as we might describe them or it was just they had become known by that name I don't know. I'd be VERY interested in any primary evidence which people have on this subject as it is one I have been avoiding to a fair degree in my research to date ... but I suppose now is as good a time as any to bite the bullet! Cheers, Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:14:54 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Confessions of a Regency shoe-aholic Shelia wrote: > Has anyone on the list had luck in manufacturing shoes, > particularly the light weight leather flats of the period. Someone answered: > For the thin shoes I would recommend ballet slippers [they] look > pretty good and are available in a wide range of sizes, inexpensive, > and sturdier than they look. WHAT??? Not wanting to re-enact the War of 1812 again, but ballet slippers are absolutely NOT appropriate for this period, or any other that I know of. Having been a dancer myself for over 28 years, I can attest to the fact that I have gone through $30.00 to $50.00 ballet slippers to the tune of four to six pair a year I don t darn them, (how do you darn leather, anyway?) as our ancestors might have even if they wore them, but they do wear out and are ridiculous for outdoor wear. Ballet slippers have a very obvious drawstring casing around the top edge and if you --incorrectly wear the tie end out in a little bow it is distracting and immediately recognizable to all but the most dim eye you ll get the question, "did they always wear ballet slippers?" a hundred and seventy-two times. Also, the soles are MUCH too thin. We get a skewed idea of this sometimes when we read Gothic and Regency novels, I think --yes, RELATIVELY thin soled shoes were worn, but they were not constructed at all in the same way as ballet shoes, which are gathered tightly onto an extremely undersized sole. The early 19th c. slippers I have examined and seen pictures of were surprisingly comparable to the "thin" leather flats we wear today. For those of you who try to find good modern shoes that to most eyes approximate well the styles worn, Speigel (Bijou, Nina and Nine West), Peebles (Unlisted by Kenneth Cole) and JC Penneys (their own brand) have had perfectly shaped copies of Regency snipped- or squared-toe leather flats in the $30 - $40 range the only thing is the soles aren t leather, but they are "thin" although not so much that you ll go through more than a pair a year. You can add ribbons across the instep if you choose for dancing or dress, or omit them for daywear if you like, or if your docent is older. Very pointy toed-shoes were also worn in the decade prior to 1812 and might still have been seen occasionally, so a middle-aged or older docent or two might wear them, since they were also recently out of style in modern times (1980s). These would look best if your docent has a relatively long or narrow foot. Also, check p. 64 in the new Spring Speigel catalog wonderful blunt, square-toed silk peau de soie leather-soled slippers by Nina in pastels, and leather versions in black and white. $39.00!! These would be better for later in the era, after 1810, through the 30s. Trivia: Marie Taglioni "invented" dancing on the points of her toes in stiffened shoes of this sort in the early 1830s. Modern pointe shoes are really extremely stiffened versions of these handmade shoes. But you don t want to wear them, either, as these are again specially made for dancing, and not for walking around in. Other shoe styles include a sturdy pancake-heeled two or three-eyelet oxford of black "rough-out" or suede leather. NOT modern jazz shoes, by the way, as some sites often try to get by with. Again, immediately recognizable, especially when you have school groups visiting your site. Also, much too expensive for the wear they give, and they don t really look like period shoes as they are not pieced the same way at all. Good photos of extant shoes of this type in Rural Pennsylvania Clothing - but you re going to have to look around for modern versions of these shoes. Black canvas flats are available at almost every Walmart or Pic n Pay for about $10.00 a pair these with a lip throat and often have an embroidered crest on the toe, _not_ the little Chinese slippers with a Mary-Jane style strap. These approximate soft leather and canvas shoes of the period, but they do wear out quickly. They are comfy, though, and good for work outside in the summer because you can wear them without stockings if you wish. I wouldn t wear these with anything other than work attire, such as your shortgowns and such. There are also some in the Speigel catalog by Gloria Vanderbilt (p. 70 big Spring book) of leather with a snipped toe that are good approximations of the everyday slip-on shoes worn by many common people, although probably better made than what many wore. Period accounts in this area (NC) attest also to the fact that women wore cast-off boots of their husbands , so some might wear men s two-eyelet booties (wonderful ones at Catalana Bootmaker for around $85 a pair) - expect a two or three month wait, though. Again, hard to find good modern ankle-high boots, no matter what many people think. Most have speed lacing and obvious brass eyelets - which make them useless for re-enacting. There are also Louis-heeled 2 or 3-eyelet oxfords I bought a bunch last year to sell and have 4 pair left. (see my sale posting) These would be older style shoes from the late 1700s but are still seen in pictures of working class and middle class women through the 1820s. Speigel had these for several seasons but I don t see them this year in the catalog so I guess they re finally gone! They look much like the $80 (and up) reproduction shoes you usually see worn with buckles, but were also worn with ties. As to patterns, the re-printed edition _Every Lady Her Own Shoemaker_ has instructions for making your own soft practical shoes as were worn in the early to mid-century, as I remember. Haven t checked it out yet to see firsthand but I keep meaning to I know Amazon Drygoods has it. Also, a company in Texas called Thumblands has patterns for pointed-toe 19th century embroidered Berlin-work slippers. I ll try to find the address for you. I ve looked through the book by Mary Wales Loomis on Making your Own Shoes, also available at Amazon Drygoods, and her method covers making your own flats and your own lasts for making the shoes. If you re serious, check it out and just follow her guaranteed methods. Sounds like fun to me, but I m already swamped over my head with stuff. Another year, and I might find the time! Shelia, as enterprising as you are I bet you can come up with a good facsimile of an early satin or linen shoe. I ve experimented a little a few years back I made a pretty good copy of a pair of canvas flats that I d loved and worn out using this method. My daddy helped me come up with the stiffener, I can t remember what it was and unfortunately he has since passed away. Take a pattern of your foot in cardboard, and experiment with draping and stiffening satins and linens to get the shape, which again should be somewhat pointy but squared at the tips of the toes, and elongated slightly more than your normal foot. You want a narrow look, and the elongation helps with this. You will need a form of some kind a last would of course be best but my dad made a small form of wood for the toe area and we used a piece of wide dowel for the very back (heel area). You will sandwich the tucked-under edges of the tops between a soft leather copy of your foot pattern and a thicker one of the outsole. Glue these together securely, and expect to repair them often. Those Regency girls did. There are pictures of dressy satin shoes of this period in Linda Baumgarten s Everyday Clothing at Williamsburg (with very pointy toes), and several sketches c. 1803 - 1815 in R. Turner Wilcox s The Mode in Costume. Not great, but it s a start. I know that this subject has been discussed here before, and that there are whole books devoted just to shoes, I just don t happen to have any on my shelf right now. Shoes are also discussed in Estelle Ansley Worrell s books. You might drive down to my hometown of Martinsville, a couple hours south of you. The Virginia Windle shoe collection is being exhibited at the Piedmont Arts Association on Starling Avenue. Virginia has over 700 shoes dating from the Revolutionary period through the 1970s. I don t know what is in the exhibit, but I have personally viewed many of her shoes and they are wonderful. We need to meet next time I go home and just go visit her! Quickly, as to your other queries, pantalets were for the young very fashion-conscious. They were considered shocking and somewhat bothersome; some women considered them de riguer for modesty s sake (they covered the part of the stockinged leg that would have been seen otherwise from the shortened dresses) but remember, not everyone bought into the shortened hemlines, and they went up and down like mini blinds over the decade. Put your married, middle-aged, and older women in conservative instep-length or longer gowns and leave the pantalets for the frivolous and the children at your site. I know if they were considered scandalous among the English they were twice so in the Backcountry and the Piedmont. Skeleton suits as far as I have seen, around eight or nine boys abandoned them in favor of "little man" attire patterned after that of their fathers. My impression is that they were generally worn by more well-to-do families, and less wealthy sons wore little trousers and single-breasted jackets with various types of shirts. Great source but out of print so check your library Children s Costume in America by E. A. Worrell. If you can t find it let me know and I ll try to xerox some of mine to send you. Wonderful bw line drawings based on extant articles, period portraits, etc., with incredible descriptions & detail. Fitting trousers over a belly - cut the front fall and upper waist area on all pieces curved upward three or so inches higher than the sides slope the line back to blend in at the seamline. Try on and adjust as needed, using a piece of elastic knotted around the waist of your subject to hold the pants up while you mark the adjusted waist seamline. You will need to allow extra length in the waistband to come up and over as well as around the belly. Past Patterns Small Fall Trousers has guidelines for fitting "portly gentlemen," and is an excellent one. I am making a museum reproduction of an extant pair of striped trousers that belonged to such a person, BTW, dated 1827 but as the shirt and tailcoat that go with them contain myriad details from much earlier periods, and the man was in his elderly years at the time, it would stand to reason that these details could have been used earlier. The entire waistband on these small-fall trousers is a 1 1/2" casing, with a 3/4" tape run through it that ties in the front. The fall buttons up over this, and covers the detail nicely. There is a pair of flaps that cross to close under the area for modesty s sake. Gotta go, been at the computer too long! Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:14:58 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Camlet; was 16th c. Fabric reference According to "The Colonial American English Dictionary," ed. by Richard M. Lederer: Camlet (n.) A fabric made originally from camel s hair, later from Angora goat hair and other materials. In 1713 Samuel Sewall wrote, "Send a pattern for a cloak of good black hair camlet." Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:15:02 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Re: 1930s patterns The Attic Copies are produced by Past Patterns. They are exact copies of old patterns, complete with the original directions. Some have some notes added by Saundra that are helpful. If you are not used to working with old patterns, they can be confusing but on the whole I have found the ones I have used to be wonderful & exciting to use -mostly 1890s & early 20th c. I, too, have found Amazon s telephone people to be somewhat "busy," and definitely clueless about their products and even history in general, but Janet Burgess is a very nice person and very helpful. You just have to call their consultation line, not the toll-free one, to talk to her. There is also a gentleman who sometimes answers the phone who seems more knowledgeable than the rest. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:15:08 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: SPRINGTIME SALE @ SUSANNAH S! For Ladies Only----- See subsequent posts for great mens and childrens items, and fabrics and patterns! Hi all, I have the following items for sale as I am cleaning out my trunks and making way for new stuff. These are items that did not sell in the past year, employees learning pieces, or were samples, and are not up to my current museum-quality standards, although fine for most re-enactor and docent wear. The items are machine stitched inside with mostly hand-finished hems, buttonholes, etc. There may be some serging inside the caps to prevent raveling, especially with the cotton lawn. All items are made of pre-washed fabric with the exception of wool items. Since I have gone to entirely hand-stitched garments with some exceptions in items dating after 1850, these have to go. If you are interested, send the price of the item plus shipping (see below) to Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd. 502 South Washington Street Monroe, NC 28112 and I will ship it to you post-haste! (via UPS ground delivery). Overseas customers, please use US dollars. First come, first served, and remember, once they are gone, there won t be others like them! If the item you want is no longer available, I will return your check immediately, uncashed, or refund you the amount for any unavailable items if you ordered more than one thing. Thank you! NC residents add 6% sales tax. Please make your check to Susannah s Heirloom. Shipping: $4.55 one item, $5.75 more than one item E of Mississippi, $6.75 W of Mississippi. This covers only a portion of the cost, I pay the rest. Hurry! I want to be rid of all this stuff! APRONS $18.00 All eras 45" wide 1 med. Blue & white narrow stripe, 100% cotton, on white cotton twill tape waist, 32" length 1 dark blue & white check, 100% cotton handwoven fabric, on off-white cotton tape waist, 33" length KITS $11.00 Contain everything you need to make an APRON, including 100% cotton fabric, tape for ties, fine English needle, 100% cotton sewing thread and complete instructions 1 med. Dark green and Tan check 1 med. Blue & off-white narrow stripe PINNER APRONS $28.00 Primarily for revolutionary, 1840s and American Civil War eras 1 Red and white check 100% cotton, size Medium 1 blue and tan tiny gingham 100% cotton handwoven, size Small EMPIRE-WAIST APRONS $28.00 Yrs. 1800 - 1828. With cute little gathered pockets. 3 size Small-Med (4-12) 1 Pink & white check, 1 Black linen, 1 Grey linen SHORTGOWNS $34.00 1 Small-Med. (4-10), peach linen, lined with unbl. cotton. Fitted jacket style with peplum waist. Pin closed. 1 Small-Med same as above , purple linen, lined with tan cotton. 1 Medium Petite (8-12) red/green/gold stripe cotton, faced with print, back pleats, 3/4 sleeves, unlined. 3 Small-Med. Backcountry Bedgown, high drawstring waist, long sleeve, 1 light aqua & white narrow striped cotton and 1 pink/white wide striped cotton, 1 dark green and gold regency floral print. 2 Large Backcountry Bedgown, long sleeve, 1 taupe/rose/ecru rose printed floral vine, 1 pokeberry-dyed ltwt. linen (sort of a dark purplish-fuschia color). WORKPETTICOATS (SKIRTS) c. 1700 - 1840. 90" wide. 1 dk red, green, gold, black narrow handwoven 100% cotton stripe. Waist 27" - 38", 34" length hemmed. Double-apron tie waistband with unbl. linen ties expands for pregnancy or weight gain or loss. $35.00 CAPS $15.00 All 100% cotton, all solid white. Suitable for years 1750 - 1830. Measurement is head circumference above eyebrows, not where cap is worn. Descriptions: Callicoe: opaque, tightly woven, crisp fabric. Lawn: sheer, transparent, not so tightly woven, lightweight Mull: translucent, finely woven, lightweight "Biggin": shaped band, low at ears, with 1" ruffle all around, moderately full crown Ruffled w/ chin ties: straight over-the-head style band with ruffle all around face and back to ears. Narrow back, fitted with small drawstring at back of head German cap: split-front ruffle all around, slightly longer at back, full crown fitted with small drawstring at back Common cap: straight 1 1/4" wide band all around, shaped ruffle longer at back and sides, full crown ALL CAPS ARE $15.00!!!! Small (22") - 1 lawn Common cap, 1 lawn German cap Medium (22 1/2")- 1 lawn "Biggin", 1 lawn & 1 callicoe Common cap, 1 lawn German cap, 2 mull ruffled w/ chin ties Large (23") - 1 lawn German cap, 3 mull Ruffled w/ chin ties, 3 lawn Common cap (2 w/cotton lace) X Large (23 1/2")- 2 mull ruffled w/ chin ties, 2 lawn common caps SHIFTS/CHEMISES all white 1 Ladies Medium (8-12), Late 18th - Early 19th c., of mull, cotton drawstring neck, short square sleeves 28.00 1 Ladies Medium (8-12), Colonial Era, of lawn, 1/8" heavy silk ribbon drawstrings, 3/4 sleeves, 1" cotton lace at neck and sleeves $34.00 2 Ladies Large (18-26), Late 18th - Early 19th c., of callicoe, cotton tape drawstring neck, short square sleeves $28.00 UNDERPETTICOATS $35.00 or 3/$100 5 Ladies medium (8-12), hook & eye waist, white lightweight cotton, 4 tucks with 8" deep ruffle 2 Ladies small to medium (4-12), drawstring waist, white lightweight cotton, 2 tucks with 6" deep ruffle KERCHIEFS - Triangular unless otherwise specified. Measurement given is on a straight side, not the long bias one. All 100% cotton handwoven unless otherwise stated, and all are COMPLETELY HAND-STITCHED (but some of them have edges that were finished with a serger before hemming-this is not usually visible). Children s X-Small (size 1-4) 22" 1 red/tan check, 2 red/white plaid $12.00 each Small (Child s 6-10 or Men s Regular size) 28" 1 pink/white check, 1 lt. blue/white check, 1 blue "kerchief plaid" w/ brown, 1 blue/tan gingham $15.00 each Medium (Men s Large or Ladies Regular size) 32" 1 red/black plaid, 1 red/white plaid $16.00 each 2 fine cotton mull w/ 100% cotton lace, 36" $20.00 each KERCHIEF KITS - $7.00 Pre-cut fabric, needle, cotton thread, instructions. 2 Small 24" on a side triangular - indigo med. blue/white gingham, dk. Blue/white check 3 Medium 32" on a side triangular - red/black plaid, rose/red/peach "kerchief plaid", brick red/white check POCKETS - $8.00 5 white linen with white cotton tape ties, 1 tow (unbl.) linen with black cotton tape ties SHOES - Ladies only, limited sizes. Suitable for years 1750 - 1820. 1 black canvas flat with embroidered emblem, lip throat. Black, 7M $9.00 Rough-out 2-eyelet walking shoe w/ pointed toe, 1 1/4" "squash" or Louis heel, left and right but looks like straight-lasted shoes from most angles, very comfortable to wear Black - sizes 6 1/2 M, 7M Chocolate - size 7M Taupe - size 7M STOCKINGS - unlimited supply, just thought I d add them in here! Sizes S, M, L 100% cotton. Come in Black, White, Beige $6.00/pair RIBBON GARTERS - 3 pair. Black, 1" wide. Rayon grosgrain with elastic fitting hidden underneath. $4.00 pair SOCKS - 100% wool. Taupe, flat woven, just to knee fit. 2 pair, ladies 9-11. $9.00 pair 30-Day Return Policy: New, unused items may be returned for full refund within 30 days of purchase, no questions asked. Respectfully, Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:15:11 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Mens & Childrens Sale Items Hi all, Here are the mens and childrens items mentioned in my last post. In case you missed it, I am cleaning out items which either did not sell in the past year, were employees learning pieces, or samples. These items are nice, but not up to my current museum standards (I am now doing nearly everything by hand and most of these have machine stitching on the insides). Please e-mail if you have questions. When these are gone, I will no longer keep inventory but will do everything custom-order only. If you see something you like, please send a check or money order for the price of the item plus shipping (see below), plus 6% sales tax if you live in North Carolina to: Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd. 502 S. Washington St. Monroe, NC 28112 and I will send the items you ordered, post-haste! (via UPS ground delivery). Overseas customers, please use US dollars. If the item you desired is gone, I will promptly refund your check, or the difference if you ordered more than one item. I want these gone! Hurry! Please make your check to Susannah s Heirloom. Shipping: $4.55 one item, $5.75 more than one item E of Mississippi, $6.75 W of Mississippi. This covers only a portion of the cost, I pay the rest. INFANTS CHEMISES - 100% cotton callicoe. Short sleeve, drawstring neck, mid-calf to knee length. Have 3 size 3 mos. - 9 mos. $21.00 INFANTS CAPS - 100% cotton flannelette w/ 100% cotton picot lace trim. Size 6 mos. - 18 mos. Cotton tape ties. $10.00 INFANTS GOWNS - $25.00 c. 1790 - 1830. Drawstring neck and waist, mid-calf to ankle length, size 6 mos. - 18 mos. 1 pale pink finest mull, short sleeve 1 lilac printed callicoe, tiny sprigs, short puffed sleeve 1 white dimity lawn, long straight sleeve CHILDRENS STRAW HATS - Fit children approx. 1 - 3 years. 2 Flat crown colonial wide brim $12.00 4 Round crown country style $6.00 KERCHIEFS - Triangular unless otherwise specified. Measurement given is on a straight side, not the long bias one. All 100% cotton handwoven unless otherwise stated, and all are COMPLETELY HAND-STITCHED (but some of them have edges that were finished with a serger before hemming-this is not usually visible). Children s X-Small (size 1-4) 22" 1 red/tan check, 2 red/white plaid $12.00 each Small (Child s 6-10 or Men s Regular size) 28" 1 pink/white check, 1 lt. blue/white check, 1 blue "kerchief plaid" w/ brown, 1 blue/tan gingham $15.00 each Medium (Men s Large or Ladies Regular size) 32" 1 red/black plaid, 1 red/white plaid $16.00 each REVOLUTIONARY WAR BLUECOAT - size 40 - 42. Navy 100% wool shell, red facings, cuffs, and standing collar. Coattee length. White callicoe (cotton broadcloth) lining, red hearts at turnbacks. Pocket flaps. Completely finished with buttonholes but no buttons or lace. All machine stitched. As is ONLY $65.00!! TROUSERS & KNEE BREECHES 3 pr. size 32, 34, 36 waist unbl. Tow linen warp/white cotton weft very rough-woven knee breeches w/ 4-hole wooden buttons. Broadfall. Buttoned knee bands. Perfect for poorest and slave wear. $38.00 1 pr. size 38 brown linen narrow fall trousers. Horn buttons. Unhemmed, 36" length. Specify your inseam and I ll hem them for you free. $42.00 WAISTCOATS 1 size 40 dark brick worsted wool, lightly fulled, lined with red/white check cotton. Dark horn buttons & working pockets. Mid 18th c. hip length. $45.00 1 size 40 brown linen late 18th - early 19th c. lined with beige jacobean chintz, pewter buttons. Not tightly fitted. Narrow welt pockets $40.00 30-Day Return Policy: New, unused items may be returned for full refund within 30 days of purchase, no questions asked. Respectfully, Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:15:13 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: FABRIC & PATTERN SALE @ SUSANNAH S Hi y all, Here are the fabrics & patterns I have for sale, mentioned in my last post. In case you missed it, I am cleaning out samples, fabrics, and other things. When these are gone, I will no longer keep inventory but will do everything custom-order only. If you see something you like, please send a check or money order for the price of the item plus shipping (see below), plus 6% sales tax if you live in North Carolina to: Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd. 502 S. Washington St. Monroe, NC 28112 and I will send the items you ordered, post-haste! (via UPS ground delivery). Overseas customers, please use US dollars. If the item you desired is gone, I will promptly refund your check, or the difference if you ordered more than one item. Please make your check to Susannah s Heirloom. I want these gone! Please Hurry! Shipping: $4.55 one item, $5.75 more than one item E of Mississippi, $6.75 W of Mississippi. This covers only a portion of the cost, I pay the rest. PERIOD FABRICS - minimum order 1 yard. All 45" wide. 100% cotton "old" muslin - white only, fine weight, like baby batiste $7.50/yd. 100% cotton handwoven checks - dk. blue, sage green, or brick red w/ white $6.50/yd. 100% silk sheer crape - black only $15.00/yd. BEST for Mourning! 100% cotton period prints - e-mail me for descriptions, colors, or swatches Group I - True to period in Style & Color $5.50/yd. Group II - Actual Repro. Authentic Print $9.50/yd. ^^ALSO --- PERIOD LACES, TAPES, CORDING, TRIMS E-MAIL IF INTERESTED OR LOOKING FOR SOMETHING SPECIFIC AND I WILL SEND SWATCH(ES) PATTERNS $7.00 each!! Backcountry Drawstring-Fitted Gown: Simplest to Sew for period 1785 - 1815 popular transitional style. Formal, day or work gown with choice of sleeves---May be made in fine muslin, callicoe, or handwoven cotton or linens. Pattern runs a little small but is easy to adjust. Illustrated with full directions and historical notes. Sizes: Girls Large (12-14), Ladies S (4-6), Ladies Medium (8-12) only. Hand-drafted large scale (full size) Xerox printed sheets on sturdy paper. Infants Gown with front pleats and petticoat. Mill Farm discontinued patterns. Size 3-9 mos. 30-Day Return Policy: New, unused items may be returned for full refund within 30 days of purchase, no questions asked. Respectfully, Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:15:53 -0500 From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: 196os again I'll put in my second 2 cents: I was a bridesmaid in a wedding in LA in 1968 and the look was classic, not hippy, but I went to college in both Berkeley and SF from 1964-1971, where hiopy-flower child-radical protester was most in vogue. The 60s, as those of us know who lived through them, was a period of extremes so I don't believe there is one typical look. To illustrate just how extreme they were, I have a neighbor now who was a young woman in the 60s in North Dakota, and one night, when we were watching tv, the movie "The Doors" was on, and she had to ask me who they were! By the way, Susan, no way was Santa Cruz hipper than Berkeley. We started it all (just kidding-- no flames please). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:16:28 -0500 From: Loren Dearborn Subject: 1966 wedding I got married in Dec. 1966 (but I was *very* young!) in Santa Cruz (possibly even hipper than Berkeley or San Fran.) Very small, informal wedding. My dress was kneelength, off the rack, but classic-looking. Winter white in a heavy cotton knit/weave -- I liked to think of it as Givenchy-esque. (Audrey Hepburn was always my idol) White lace mantilla-type "veil", bone shoes, off-white stockings, and of course, pearls. My mom, my attendant and I all had corsages instead of bouquets. My mother was also married in a style like this: knee length, sleeveless white dress in a fairly heavy fabric, cut in a very Hepburnesque style (who was her idol too). This was in Chicago in 1964, btw. She wore a tiny pillbox hat with shorter than shoulder length veil and small "posey" style bouquet, I think maybe gloves too. They eloped so there were no female attendants. She was very much into the "hippie" look but in the photos of her that didn't seem to come into play until later on, 69-70ish. Cheers, Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 20:07:50 -0500 From: Loren Dearborn Subject: Celtic? Rings I have been trying to find information on a type of ring that I thought someone on this list might know about. I've seen two, one was a replica of a ring at the British Museum, and was gold, the other was a mixture of metals and had slightly faceted sides. I seem to recall reading something that leads me to believe it was an old Celtic design, however they do not look like the typical Celtic knotwork rings one sees so frequently. They both had alternating patterns of tiny animals and flowers or leaves etched on then. If anyone knows anything about this style of ring, what it's called, where it's from I'd greatly appreciate hearing from you. Thanks. Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 20:11:01 -0500 From: "Karen A. Allen" Subject: Re: JANE AUSTEN - BOOK >Nancy Saputo wrote: >> >> __JANE AUSTEN: IN STYLE__, By Susan Watkins >> This book is also a reprint of _JANE AUSTEN'S TOWN AND COUNTRY STYLE_, with minor edits. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Karen A. Allen (aka Mistress Angelina Nicollette de Beaumont, O.L.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 20:11:05 -0500 From: J&B Subject: Re: A question on what was "scandalous". Steve & Michelle Plumb wrote: > ... after watching a Roscoe Arbuckle/Mabel > Normand film, I had to ask a question. > > It was a film from 1915, involving a visit to the opera. A man > accompanied by 2 women had a box seat, and one of the women caused > quite a stir. She had on a particularly low-cut dress that got a lot > of attention." This sounds like a famous incident in which the Cuban-American socialite Rita de Acosta Lydig wore "the first(?)" backless dress to the (old) Met sometime about 1913. A dress decent enough to appear "too" low-cut in a movie would not have been particularly scandalous at the opera. James Middleton ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 20:11:29 -0500 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: Fans Broneske wrote: > >Are the little round, unfolding paper fans with the metal handle appropriate for >1860's usage? That basic style of fan was one of the styles used in the 1860's. I own one picture and have seen another picture of women holding them. The difference is the quality and construction has changed in modern times, and not for the better as you can well imagine. The original fans I've seen have all been silk painted or otherwise coated to stiffen it. The handles were rounded metal covered with leather (faux or otherwise) with metal tips. The modern fans just don't cut it if close up accuracy is critical. The look okay from a distance (a play, etc.) That's probably more than you wanted to hear as usual from me. :-) Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net Visit The Curiosity Shop! http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 20:11:31 -0500 From: Anne Bannon Subject: Pattern Drafting Hello! I'm new to the list, and have been enjoying it immensely. I hope I don't open a can of worms with my question, but since you people don't seem to mind us beginners, I thought I'd ask. I'm an advanced seamstress with enough skills to adapt a paper pattern, but would like to get a book on how to draft patterns from scratch. The problem is, I'm interested in several historical periods, so basically what I need is a text that will enable me to translate what I see in a book onto paper and fabric. For space reasons, I do not have a dressmaker's dummy, so I am limited to flat patterns. And while the historian in me adores accuracy (as does my husband, the historian by career), my background in theatre recognizes the occasional need for concessions to modernism. So a book with modern techniques would perhaps be more helpful at first because that's the milieu I'm familiar with. Although, books on how it used to be done would be fascinating for future reference. You can e-mail me privately, unless you think the information would be good for the whole group. Many thanks, A. Bannon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 20:11:40 -0500 From: Broneske Subject: Bonnets, Hats and Other Head Coverings.... I have just recently been delving into bonnet and hat making using = information I gleaned from "The Costume Technician's Handbook" and "From = the Neck Up". My first couple of attempts came out pretty well for an = amateur. I would like to know if any of you out there have any = experience in millinery and if you can offer any hints, tips, = techniques, etc. Thanks, Joan Broneske unicorn@softcom.net ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 2 Mar 1997 to 3 Mar 1997 ************************************************** From ???@??? Wed Mar 05 10:10:12 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA08976 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 5 Mar 1997 06:29:33 +0100 Message-Id: <199703050529.AA08976@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.0CAB1D5D@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 6:29:32 +0100 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 00:03:05 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Mar 1997 to 4 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 29 messages totalling 930 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 19th Century Eye Glasses 2. 1930s patterns 3. Bonnets, Hats and Other Head Coverings.... 4. Help with a men's peasocod belly 5. Regency slippers 6. Horsehair (5) 7. Pattern Drafting (2) 8. LETTICE CAP 9. hat hints 10. EMMA 11. FW: H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Feb 1997 to 18 Feb 1997 12. Mystery Accessory. Again. 13. Confessions of a Regency shoe-aholic 14. Handsewn Seams and Book question 15. H-COSTUME Digest - 23 Feb 1997 to 24 Feb 1997 16. The use of Linen in period costumes 1300-1600 (2) 17. patterns of fashion 18. Seams 19. new tailoring book 20. Pattern Drafting and Williamsburg Stockings 21. Beginners costume questions and stuff (fwd) 22. Williamsburg stockings 23. Where are you, Sally Chandler?! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:53:53 -0500 From: Kimberly Burnette Subject: 19th Century Eye Glasses Does anyone know of a source for 19th century glasses? Specifically, I am searching for glasses that would be appropriate for the time period from 1845-1855. Thanks! Kimberly burnette@roanoke.infi.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:53:57 -0500 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: 1930s patterns Dale Loberger wrote: > > > I, too, have found Amazon s telephone people to be somewhat "busy," and > definitely clueless about their products and even history in general, > but Janet Burgess is a very nice person and very helpful. You just have > to call their consultation line, not the toll-free one, to talk to her. > There is also a gentleman who sometimes answers the phone who seems > more knowledgeable than the rest. > > Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring It might be well to remember that Janet Burgess makes it a point to hire physically dis-advantaged people to work there. A little patience might be in order. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:54:54 -0500 From: Triple Breasted Whore of Eroticon-6 Subject: Re: Bonnets, Hats and Other Head Coverings.... I have done some hatmaking for myself and for several theater productions. My best advice is take your time and don;t fear handwork. Most of my hats are put together entierly by hand and they look much better then the ones I stich by machine. It take a little longer, but the effect is much lighter. I also would encourage you to experiment alot with trimings. You would be suprised what awfull things look stunning on a well made hat. Heidi Schultz freya@mills.edu http://www.mills.edu/PEOPLE/ug.pages/freya.public.html/freya.homepage.html ************************************************************************** "Let him who does not understand either be silent or learn" -John Dee ************************************************************************** Smoking a cigarette is like giving Death a blow job. ************************************************************************** On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Broneske wrote: > I have just recently been delving into bonnet and hat making using information I gleaned from "The Costume Technician's Handbook" and "From the Neck Up". My first couple of attempts came out pretty well for an amateur. I would like to know if any of you out there have any experience in millinery and if you can offer any hints, tips, techniques, etc. > > Thanks, > > Joan Broneske > unicorn@softcom.net > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:55:02 -0500 From: SyRilla@aol.com Subject: Help with a men's peasocod belly Has anyone used the Period Patterns no58? If so please email me. I am having trouble with figuring out the padding instructions for the belly. BTW I am using View III Thank you, Kimberly SyRilla@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:55:06 -0500 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Regency slippers Actually, although the Regency shoe toes were squarer and the soles narrower, real Regency _dance_ (not walking English country dance!) requires soles as flexible as modern ballet slippers. Period manuals go on and on about working down from the ball of the foot through the instep when you jump, which most step sequences require. Which is in fact a lot healthier for your ankles than landing on a flat foot. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:55:09 -0500 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Horsehair Chandler, Sally A. wrote: > > Some medieval garments were, apparently, stuffed with horsehair - > particularly arming caps and aketons. Excuse my ignorance, but would this > be the sort of horsehair you brush off the animal when you're grooming it or > something else? > I suspect that what they probably mean is mane or tail hair. This is frequently used in stuffing upholstery. Not something I'd want to use in clothes myself but it would work. Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:55:12 -0500 From: "Diana H." Subject: Re: Horsehair Chandler, Sally A. wrote: > > Some medieval garments were, apparently, stuffed with horsehair - > particularly arming caps and aketons. Excuse my ignorance, but would this > be the sort of horsehair you brush off the animal when you're grooming it or > something else? Dear Sally & list, I would tend to think that the *horsehair* was actually hair from the mane & tail rather than the short hair from the body. It seems to me that the long, wiry hairs would be a good clothing stuffer but the soft, short hairs would not. Also, I'd hate to think what you would smell like if you got wet and had horse-body hair in your outfit! Anybody know for sure? Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:55:16 -0500 From: "Diana H." Subject: Re: Pattern Drafting Anne Bannon wrote: > > Hello! > I'm an advanced seamstress with enough skills to adapt a paper pattern, > but would like to get a book on how to draft patterns from scratch. The > problem is, I'm interested in several historical periods, so basically what I > need is a text that will enable me to translate what I see in a book onto > paper and fabric. Dear Anne, One of the wonderful things about the 90's is that people have finally realized that recycling books in used bookstores is a GOOD thing. I have found many a good art, costuming or jewelry book in used bookstores. One of the last places I tried had *how-to* books on sewing, embroidery and other stitches. So my advice is....try a few used bookstores. Go to the costume, home arts, or sewing sections and you are bound to find an old "How to sew & draft patterns" book. They will probably be college texts from somebody who took a fashion design class. And best of all, they will be used and therefore more affordable! > So a book with modern > techniques would perhaps be more helpful at first because that's the milieu > I'm familiar with. Although, books on how it used to be done would be > fascinating for future reference. My experience with period sewing and embroidery has mostly been by learning from other people who are knowledgeable and by keeping an eye out for books that show extant garments. Alot can be learned from looking at paintings or existing clothing and seeing how things fit together. Some is trial and error. And mostly, if you did it and it looks right, it is probably very close to what they would have done (or at least it is close enough until you find out some new bit of information on how they did it) Also, there are many, many people on this list who have a vast body of knowledge. If all else fails, it's ok to say "I am making X and can't figure out how to do Y...does anyone have any ideas?" Those who do would probably be very willing to share their knowledge and expertise. And if nobody knows, you certainly haven't lost anything! Good luck! Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:55:19 -0500 From: Tina Carney Subject: LETTICE CAP I am looking for anyone who could suggest further information on a lettice cap. It was fashionable in the early tudor days and I only have seen one reference to it in Cunnington. Anyone know what I'm talking about? Tina researcher of hats ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:55:23 -0500 From: Guinevere White Lee Subject: Re: hat hints Three helpful hat hints that I have found helpful: 1- Always use either double buckram or two layers of the single stuff. 2- Always straighten your hat wire (it generally is packaged in a coil) before bending/shaping it into to desired shape. 3- Wire all edges for stability of shape. Hope you find these helpful. Guinevere ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:55:27 -0500 From: Scarlett Subject: Re: EMMA > It is curious, isn't it, that Jane Austen's novels are so popular right now. > America, Australia....I wonder if Europe/England is caught up in this > frenzy? >From someone in England: Jane Austen's novels have ALWAYS been very popular here-every couple of years there is a new TV version of one of her novels, there is invariably a theatre production somewhere around and she's on every A'level reading list I've ever seen. The only real difference is that Hollywood seems to be concentrating on historical novels and plays at the moment: e.g. "Jude", "Hamlet", "Sense And Sensibility" etc. What I want to know is - when will someone make a film of "Wuthering Heights" that is as dark, violent and scary as the book is? Every version I've seen so far has been so far from the book it's made it a romantic comedy, with Heathcliff as a nice bloke rather than a complete b*****d who beats his wife! (Cliff Richard plays him in the current musical version - 'nuff said). Anita. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:55:31 -0500 From: Scarlett Subject: Re: FW: H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Feb 1997 to 18 Feb 1997 Forgive me if I'm missing the point of this, but every Englishwoman I've met wears both her engagement ring AND her wedding ring on the third finger of her left hand. There is sometimes an eternity ring on this finger too. Do Americans not do this? Anita. > Intrestingly, the English wear their wedding rings on their left hand. Being > a Norwegian married to an Englishman I choose to wear my wedding ring on the > left - not as a token to my husband, but rather because I felt the ring was > always in the way of my work. His nationality was a handy excuse. Then my > grandmother gave me a diamond ring, an oldfashioned engagement ring, really, > that I felt obliged to wear. The only practical solution for me was > switching the plain gold ring to my right hand and wearing the bulkier > diamond ring on the left.(I guess I could have worn both on my left, but > most people would find that a bit odd...) This makes me wonder, could the > choise between right and left hand for the wedding ring have something to do > with wearing or not wearing additional rings at some point when fashion was set? > > Just musing... > > Inger > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:55:35 -0500 From: Scarlett Subject: Re: Mystery Accessory. Again. Could it not be a little pouch to keep her essentials in? The predecessor of the handbag...I haven't seen the painting, so forgive me if I'm off course. Anita. > ------------ > Here is a question I've had for years: The painting called "The Long > Engagement," by Arthur Hughes, shows two young people enjoying a moment of > emotional suffering in a forest. She is wearing a short purple velvet > cape over her dress, and there is a bundle of lavender velvet showing > between his trousers and her skirt. What in the world is it? A bonnet on > a stick? A cloak for the spaniel? A part of her dress that I don't > understand? A matching ghost? A sporran run wild? > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:55:39 -0500 From: J&B Subject: Re: Confessions of a Regency shoe-aholic on the subject of those thin soles - it's always seemed to me that the whole point of thin-soled shoes was that they were worn by that small segment of society who didn't use their feet for anything practical, certainly not dancing in the mud. James Middleton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:55:42 -0500 From: Catherine Kinsey Subject: Handsewn Seams and Book question >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most modern hand sewing may be 'clunky', because the people doing it have very little practice; there is no reason to assume that was the case in the past, or even today amongst those who do a lot of hand sewing. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Definately! I had a chance to closely exam some antique kimonos several years ago while taking them apart (to recover useable fabric). No surprise they were all hand sewn, with silk thread and a beautiful small even stitch. The thread did not pull-out as easily as I was used to being able to do with other hand-sewn seams. Book Question; I'm sure this has been discussed on this list before but I am interested in finding information on the errors in the Elizabethan Costuming book, also known as the RenFaire Costume book. If someone could direct me to the archives or possibly has an old post lying around I would appreciate it. I am familiar with the more obvious (like the information on pockets) but would like to learn more. This is a very easy reference to refer RenFair folks to (especially when mom, wife, aunt or grandma are doing the sewing) but I'd like to be able to steer them around as many possible mistakes as I can. Thanks! Cat' ckinsey@kumc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:56:51 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Re: Horsehair I will have to qualify my response by saying that my "expertise" comes only from owning several of the shaggy beasts and the knowledge that I picked up from my father who was a director, dramaturg etc. I would guess that the hair used for stuffing was tail or mane hair. Horse hair from the body is short, and I would think it would poke through most fabrics. I recollect from the latter source that it was also used for upholstery stuffing and under old dance floors/stages. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:57:12 -0500 From: barbara jeanette Mason Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 23 Feb 1997 to 24 Feb 1997 >I am researching the topic of antique clothing preservation and >restoration for a university directed study. What resources could I use >to get specific preservation techiniques?(magazines, journals, literature) Tanya Zona State University of New York at Geneseo TJZ97@uno.cc.geneseo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:57:17 -0500 From: No Name Subject: The use of Linen in period costumes 1300-1600 Someone posted a note a few days ago (which I've lost already, so forgive me if I misquote here) asking about whether the wealthy (aristocratic??) might have worn linen (as outerwear as opposed to linings? etc.) as everyday wear. I don't remember if a period was given, so I'll qualify it with my interests, say 1300-1600. I know wool was common, but was there a typically "less formal" fabric that was used in warm weather besides silk?? I was curious if there were any responses. I seemed to miss them if there were. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:57:40 -0500 From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Re: Pattern Drafting The book I recommend is "The Costumer's Handbook: How to make all kinds of costumes", by Rosemary Ingham and Elizabeth Covey. I think that there is a newer edition than the one I have (1980). It includes instructions on making slopers, from which just about anything can be designed. I have used this book for 16th through 19th century clothing. Joan Jurancich joanj@quiknet.com Sacramento, CA At 08:11 PM 3/3/97 -0500, Anne Bannon wrote: >Hello! > > I'm new to the list, and have been enjoying it immensely. I hope I >don't open a can of worms with my question, but since you people don't seem >to mind us beginners, I thought I'd ask. > > I'm an advanced seamstress with enough skills to adapt a paper pattern, >but would like to get a book on how to draft patterns from scratch. The >problem is, I'm interested in several historical periods, so basically what I >need is a text that will enable me to translate what I see in a book onto >paper and fabric. > > For space reasons, I do not have a dressmaker's dummy, so I am limited >to flat patterns. And while the historian in me adores accuracy (as does my >husband, the historian by career), my background in theatre recognizes the >occasional need for concessions to modernism. So a book with modern >techniques would perhaps be more helpful at first because that's the milieu >I'm familiar with. Although, books on how it used to be done would be >fascinating for future reference. > > You can e-mail me privately, unless you think the information would be >good for the whole group. > > Many thanks, > A. Bannon > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:57:43 -0500 From: ellen adams Subject: patterns of fashion In reading Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion_ I've come across the term "edge stitching" many times. Is it the same thing as slipstitching? Ellen Adams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:55:00 -0500 From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Subject: Re: Seams Caroline wrote, >However, I did want to comment on Gray Hunter's comments >>Remember that all that braid you see on garments before the sewing machine >>is there to cover clunky hand sewn seams as well as to be decorative. > >This is what I really have to disagree with, certainly for the 15th and >16th centuries, which is what I know about, I can't comment on Georgian. >Virtually all outer garments were made by professional tailors who spent >their lives, and earned their living, handsewing, sometimes for people who >could afford extremely expensive cloth. Most modern hand sewing may be >'clunky', because the people doing it have very little practice; there is >no reason to assume that was the case in the past, or even today amongst >those who do a lot of hand sewing. (I will declare an interest here, all >my period stuff, and a lot of my modern clothes, are handsewn). From examining originals of the 18thC, primarily American, 2nd half of the century: I was surprised that both "clunky" and fine stitching was used. For shirts and shifts, which would be frequently laundered, the stitching is very fine. Where trimmings are applied, the stitching is very coarse. Just enough to keep the trim from falling off, with the threads showing on the backside of the garments. This goes for upper class clothing, too! >When highly decorated surfaces do come in, late 16th century in England, >>the braid is not focused over seam lines. Indeed it is not uncommon for >>the braid to be at right angles to the seam lines! The place where I see tape covering seam lines is in stays. In both coarse fabrics (lower class or stays for working; strapless) and fine fabrics (from the upper class) the construction was the same. Each piece appears to be made by sewing the lining to the outer fabric, turning it right side out, then boning it. The boned pieces then seem to be whipstitched together along the vertical seams. This stitching is sturdy but not pretty, the thread is heavy. Narrow tape (1/8 - 1/4" wide) is stitched over these seamlines. Someone (perhaps it was also Gray Hunter?) said most garments were constructed this way. That is not the case. I had heard that from people before, as well. Different types of garments were constructed differently. >Apart from defending the honour of our predecessors who made the originals >of the clothes, I don't think it does anyone a service suggesting that >poorly made clothes are appropriate. Most of the garments I've seen, >machine or handsewn, suggest the maker should strive for higher standards >rather than settle for lower - and I do not except my own attempts. It's tough when the beginning reenactor generaly starts by making a shirt or shift. The "simple" garment requires the most skill for making seams. The only simple part is the cutting. -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 22:57:42 -0500 From: "Marnie A. Fiamengo" Subject: Re: Horsehair IMHO... considering that the long hairs from the mane and/or tail are what are/were used as stuffing in horsehair chairs... (have one...) and other such things that were to be stiffly pouffed yet lightweight... I'd go with mane and/or tail hair. Also IMHO... felt is/was made from matting together the short (body) hairs... and so doesn't at all seem like something to use to make something that you don't want matted & flat... Marnie Fiamengo HL Morna Judithsdottir ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 22:58:21 -0500 From: Fred Struthers Subject: new tailoring book Of interest to tailoring, costuming, history enthusiasts and fanatics!!! Now that Robb Shep's new book is out, I want to share the first of what we hope will be many rave reviews... LATE VICTORIAN WOMEN=92S TAILORING: The Direct System of Ladies=92 Cuttin= g (1897). T.H. Holding, R.L. Shep (ed). 1997. 192p. Illustrated. R.L. Shep/Fred Struthers (dist). p.o. box 2706. Fort Bragg, CA 95437.=20 paper $19.95 This is a reprint of the third edition which has been enlarged and embellished with notes and additional illustrations. Mr. Holding was one of the most renowned tailors of his day in addition to being a talented, if not amusing author. This primary source material will allow people to create exact garments of the period including jackets, skirts, coats, capes, riding clothes, and in addition, cycling and golfing apparel which had not been previously offered in other tailoring manuals. He gives patterns, drafting methods, constructions methods, and even fitting techniques and his systems are comprehensive and easy to follow for someone with at least average sewing skills. Even though styles have changed, his system of drafting is still useable as is his advice on the most common alterations needed for jackets. Braiding on garments was popular and there are excellent braiding diagrams as well as additional illustrations of non-tailored items such as corsets, gloves, shoes, hats, and underwear. I have an extensive background in tailoring and I can recommend this book highly on a technical level, but it would also most definitely appeal to costumers, re-enactors, designers, historians, museum curators, and people engaged in women=92s studies. I enjoyed this immensely and it is a book I will treasure. Mary Roehr =97 custom tailor/educator/author SO there it is -- respectfully submitted, Fred Struthers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 22:58:31 -0500 From: Margaret Griffith Subject: Re: The use of Linen in period costumes 1300-1600 Someone posted a note asking about whether the wealthy (aristocratic??) might have worn linen (as outerwear as opposed to linings? etc.) as everyday wear. I'm actually rather curious about this, since several months ago I was searching for this information specifically for Elizabethan era England/Northern Europe. I checked several costuming sources and was unable to come up with a actual "in period" reference to the use of linen or outerwear. There were a few references to "canvas" garments, mostly for servants (and general boys - e.g. canvas jerkin, etc.). Someone suggested that I check wills, inventory lists. I haven't done this because frankly I'm not sure how to find such things. Any suggestions? Meg Penrose ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 22:58:53 -0500 From: Guinevere White Lee Subject: Re: Pattern Drafting and Williamsburg Stockings Pattern Drafting: A very informative book on modern flat patterning and draping techniques if DRESS DESIGN, DRAPING AND FLAT PATTERN MAKING, by Marion S. Millhouse and Evelyn H. Mansfield. Unfortunately, the book is out of print and can only be found at a University Library. On rare occasions you may find one at a used book store. If so buy it!!!!! It is an absolute treasure trove of information. Williamsburg Stockings: The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation, Costume Design Center would be able to give you a Stocking supplier. They have a list of all the suppliers they use that they are happy to send out. Their phone# is (757)229-1000, ask for the Costume Design Center. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 22:59:01 -0500 From: "Marlo W. Peck" Subject: Re: Beginners costume questions and stuff (fwd) > Hello, > > I'm new to this list, and to historical sewing in general. As a dressmaker > and pattern drafter, I have some degree of skill, and experience. I also > have some questions. > > First, are beginner questions welcomed here? If they are, then please read > on. If they are not, then I extend my apologies and will just keep my mouth > shut and read my mail as it comes in. Do you have an FAQ? If any of these > questions are covered there, just refer me. > > What follows is a fairly long post, with subject headings. The specific > years in question are in ( ). > > I have recently started attending the SCA. I am interested in about 1400- > the reformation, my husband is interested in the very early 600ish and the > friend who introduced us is interested in the Middle Ages in general (i.e. > toss something together using fabric purchased at St Vinnie's, go and have > fun.) I have been trying to find the answers in various books, but to no > avail. > > Seam finishes- > Since the fabrics we have today, and the machines for making, sewing, and > cleaning them are vastly different from what was available then, how do I > finish seams? I have enough velvet scraps to make a variation of the > Greenland dress, but it is acetate/rayon high-nap velvet and frays badly. > As a dressmaker, for this purpose, I want to serge, and be done with it. > What techniques would be correct? How was velvet handled? I can make the > judgement call during construction on which ones the garment requires. Does > silk velvet fray as badly? > I have some felted wool crepe that still frays slightly. And an even-weave > washable wool blend (from the stash so the price is right). This also > frays. Again, what seam finishes? > Do you want to jump right in on the "autenticity" track or the looks really nice on the outside and what the laurels don't know about the inside is none of their buisiness? If you're not ready to spend lot's of time on hand work, go on and surge, otherwise try and find that wonderful book some of the other posts have mentioned, HMSO Clothing and Textiles, it is an archeology book, not a costume book, but has the best, practically only leads for sewing methods. Regarding handling velvet, I can tell you that documentation show that nap direction was not near the concern it is to us, that helps save fabric in layout, but looks wrong to modern eyes. > Books and sleeves- > I have been reading books on the subjects of costumes and fashion covering > the outside. I have books on reproducing costumes _for theatre_ that talk > about the insides of garments, for stage use. Be careful about some theatre construction methods, they are designed for theatre wear and tear and not authentic appearance. Be especially careful about closures, zippers and Velcro are not SCA period, metal eyelet's for lacing are cheating, but everybody does it, hooks and eye and buttons usually work, but be careful about what type of buttons, natural materials or cloth are more correct. Kohler's book with it's > diagrams is my strongest resource for what I assume fairly accurate > reproduction. Are there better sources? Kohler does not talk much about > sleeve and armseye shapes. Should I use a standard curved cap set-in sleeve > for all tight sleeves? The curved and arching sleeve cap and the tapered > sleeves make for lots of fabric waste. (1400+) I have seen cutting > diagrams with almost no fabric waste, but I can't recall the sleeve shape, > or the time period. I also recall reading (in a theatre book) that sleeves > were tied on, at the shoulder, but don't see proof. > I personally don't like Kohler very well. Using his diagrams can give you some hard puzzles to solve for fitting the pieces. If you can get hold of Janet Arnold's books or Hunzucker, drat I can't bring her correct name to my mind and I don't own a copy to look it up, I imagine someone will correct me. Armseye shapes depend on the particular gown you are trying to make, if you can tell me a painting that is fairly commonly used, such as a Holbien or Durer I could tell you more. In renaissance sleeves were often tied on in various ways depending on the year and the country. "Costume Books" are a good place to start for what things looked like, but go get portrait books and other art books for what kinds of styles and variation were done. Most costume books have the same ten picture again and again. > Undergarments- > I haven't seen much discussion on the "lingerie" of the period. What is the > cutting shape? What is the neckline. Looking at black and white pictures > of statues, rubbings and art, I can't tell if the chemise shows at the neck > and sleeve or is completely hidden. (1400-1500) It looks like some are > each way. Is it wearer's choice, depending on modesty and temperature? > I think you have that right. Depending on the style a simple tunic as a chemise cut so the neck and cuffs are visible or not at your choice is the easy way to start. The authenticity gang will threaten to hang me and tell my laurel to take back my green belt, but the basic peasant blouse, with drawstring neck and cuffs works fine for a beginner. Later you can make a properly smocked shift and get all kinds of cool points with the gang back home. Bras are not period. Feel free to leave it at home. Corsets are just starting in your time frame I think. You will be surprised at how comfortable they are once you get them on. > Thanks for bearing with me through this post. I appreciate any help and > guidance given to me while I learn new skills. Thanks muchly. > > DJ > DJ on her husband's account I hope this gives you some more clues. I came into the SCA from theatre costuming and was surprised at how much I had to relearn. The important part is to have fun. If your like me then the research and construction in detail is a big part of the fun (and the profit.) Feel free to write off list if you have any other SCA or costuming questions. I've been doing the SCA for fun and profit for seven years and love to spout off at any opportunity. Marlo W. Peck Knowne to the Society as Muriel deRedfearne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 22:59:04 -0500 From: Ken & Dianne Tidy Subject: Re: Williamsburg stockings Dear Rose, These stockings are not made in Williamsburg; however, they are sold in Williamsburg's gift shops. You may order by calling Colonial Williamsburg. They come in white, dark red, rust brown and blue. Occasionally I have seen black, dark green, and tan. White stockings can be dyed (I have dyed them for years in yellow, rose, lavender, and chocolate brown). Price should be approximately $8.00 per pair. Call CW at their 1-800-HISTORY and ask for the phone number for the Prentiss Store or Tarpleys. Dianne At 02:14 PM 3/3/97 -0500, Diana H. wrote: >Hello fellow costume enthusiasts! > >I live in California and recently went to one of the Living History Days at Sutter's >Fort that Joan J. mentioned a few weeks ago. The docents were great and the facility >itself very interesting to wander around. A nice few hours to spend if you happen to be >in the area. > >While I was there, I bought a pair of (mostly) cotton stockings that come to above the >knee. But....they only had one color--blue. I was told that they also come in 4 other >colors and that they are made in *Williamsburg, VA*. > >Does anyone know how I could order some more of these? The contain 75% cotton and >25% nylon and I think they may even be made in *Colonial Williamsburg*. Does somebody >offer them in a catalog? Can I get them straight from the company? > >Any leads or help would be very greatly appreciated! > >Rose :~> > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 22:59:08 -0500 From: Northshield Folk Subject: Re: Horsehair BE>Chandler, Sally A. wrote: BE>> BE>> Some medieval garments were, apparently, stuffed with horsehair - BE>> particularly arming caps and aketons. Excuse my ignorance, but would this BE>> be the sort of horsehair you brush off the animal when you're grooming it BE>> something else? BE>> BE>I suspect that what they probably mean is mane or tail hair. This is BE>frequently used in stuffing upholstery. Not something I'd want to use BE>in clothes myself but it would work. BE>Carolyn I have not seen reference to arming caps stuffed with horsehair, I have seen references to wool, or cotton. I fight in armor every weekend. From personal experience I could tell you that horse hair would be rather dense for the job, and downright uncomfortable. If they did wear them in period they were far from comfortable in my estimation. Nancy Laughlin-Foust shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 23:02:43 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Where are you, Sally Chandler?! Subject: To: CC To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME <> Sally, I have tried and tried to e-mail you, to no avail. What am I doing wrong? Sorry, list, but I didn t know what else to do if anybody knows Sally and can get a message to her, please let her know I am having problems answering her. Susannah Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: shu.ac.uk: host not found) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 05:15:59 -0800 From: Mailer-Daemon@wow.esri.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem) To: The original message was received at Mon, 24 Feb 1997 05:15:38 -0800 from esri [192.9.155.1] ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 ... Host unknown (Name server: shu.ac.uk: host not found) ----- Original message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from universe by esri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id FAA23337; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 05:15:38 -0800 Received: from sparco. by universe (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29245; Mon, 24 Feb 97 05:23:16 PST Comment: Environmental Systems Research Institute Received: from tpc486 by sparco. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA05788; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 08:16:31 -0500 Message-Id: <33119384.79A4@esri.com> Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 08:11:32 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Organization: ESRI-Charlotte X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: RE: I want this book! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit content-length: 1267 Sally: I apologize for its having been so long! As you may have guessed, I have been swamped and have really neglected my e-mail friends because I never have the computer at my home office when I m working, only at night when I m closed up; but I love your idea of a swap, book for the stockings. Please refresh me on your size (Small, Medium, Large) and color choice or choices (white, black, beige). I will ship them as soon as possible in exchange for the favor of finding and sending me the book! Thanks! Also, tell me again your shipping address and any other pertinent information I should know. The post office is only a block away from me so I can get them there quickly for you, on a daily walk with the babies perhaps now that the weather is turning nice! Susannah (PS. I omitted my mailing address from this copy of the reply since it had to be sent to you via the list please let me know if you get this and how I can send it to you. I m starting to think snail mail might be quicker after all!!!) Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger, for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." --William Morris ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 3 Mar 1997 to 4 Mar 1997 ************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Mar 06 09:34:15 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA16476 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 6 Mar 1997 06:25:05 +0100 Message-Id: <199703060525.AA16476@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <2.97A077B4@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 6:25:04 +0100 Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 00:02:03 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 4 Mar 1997 to 5 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 18 messages totalling 476 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. SEams 2. Handsewn Seams and Book question 3. The use of Linen in period costumes 1300-1600 (2) 4. Beginner costumers questions and stuff 5. 19th Century Eye Glasses 6. 15th-century costume 7. 14th Century costume (3) 8. EMMA 9. aprons (2) 10. Cookbooks for 1812 11. HISTORIC THEATRE COSTUMES 12. Allemande Workshop in San Francisco Bay Area (2) 13. silk stockings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 08:31:03 -0500 From: Gray Hunter Subject: Re: SEams In a message dated 97-03-03 14:16:51 EST, you write: << Apart from defending the honour of our predecessors who made the originals of the clothes, I don't think it does anyone a service suggesting that poorly made clothes are appropriate. Most of the garments I've seen, machine or handsewn, suggest the maker should strive for higher standards rather than settle for lower - and I do not except my own attempts. >> Let me say that I certainly did not mean to demean the quality of sewing in centuries past. It does sound like that's what I was doing. I merely meant to express the fact that hand sewn seams don't look like machine sewn seams. Especially when using the method I described. Anyway that's been my experience. Of course I don't know everything so it's good to read something from someone who has a different & more detailed knowledge. Judging from what I know about embroidery of the Tudor & earlier periods.....the sophistication & intricacy.... I'm sure the level of professional sewing must have been equally fine. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 08:31:11 -0500 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: Handsewn Seams and Book question > >Book Question; I'm sure this has been discussed on this list before but I >am interested in finding information on the errors in the Elizabethan >Costuming book, also known as the RenFaire Costume book. Great book! With, as you say, some errors. Here's my 2 cent's worth: Men's doublets rarely, if ever, laced up the back. (Please, no flames everyone! We just went through this in detail a few months ago, and the general agreement seems to be that it would be great if they did, but they didn't. Consult the archives for more info.) Upperclass women's underskirts were not fastened to the overskirts with points. This seems to be an extrapolation from pictures of closed skirts fastened down the CF with points. There are also a few portraits that show bows on the edges of open overskirts, but they are obviously "made-up" bows, sewn in place, not points. An overskirt with a properly interfaced edge stays in place fine without help. Womens back-laced bodices: While I can recall one woodcut that shows backlacing, there are a number of other sources that show no back fastening. The most common fastening seems to have been concealed hooks and eyes at CF. There is also little or no evidence for side lacing. The slashes that run from the shoulder seam on a Spanish Surcoat are probably not for nursing, as they usually end above the bust point. There's one more error that isn't recommended in the book, but is shown in several of the illustrations. It's a make-do solution to the problem of a bodice slipping off the shoulders, due to the back neckline being cut in a low curve: a pair of eyelets on the shoulder straps, and a lace threaded through them and tied. Cut your bodice back higher instead. > Aside from those issues, it's the best source for beginning to intermediate Renfaire costumers. Margo Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 08:31:13 -0500 From: "Diana H." Subject: Re: The use of Linen in period costumes 1300-1600 Margaret Griffith wrote: > > Someone posted a note asking about whether the wealthy (aristocratic??) > might have worn linen (as outerwear as opposed to linings? etc.) as everyday wear. > I'm actually rather curious about this, since several months ago I was > searching for this information specifically for Elizabethan era > England/Northern Europe. I checked several costuming sources and was > unable to come up with a actual "in period" reference to the use of linen > or outerwear. Do you mean linen as outerwear, or wearing linen at all? As outerwear, I can only say that most of the 1500-1600 styles throughout Europe seem to call for much more densely woven fabrics.....wools, brocades, heavy silks, etc. I don't have actual documentation, but seeing the way things hang should convince you that linen was not used as outerwear. As for linings, it was widely used. Janet Arnold, in the 1560-1620 costuming book shows and explains several examples of existing garments that clearly had linen as a lining fabric. I would suspect, as well, that the first choice fabric for chemises was silk. And the second choice would have been linen since cotton as a fabric was not widely in use. So, for those who couldn't afford silk, linen was probably the fabric used for their chemises. I hope that made sense! Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 08:31:20 -0500 From: Maggie Percival Subject: Beginner costumers questions and stuff > >Be careful about some theatre construction methods, they are designed for >theatre wear and tear and not authentic appearance. Be especially careful >about closures, zippers and Velcro are not SCA period, metal eyelet's for >lacing are cheating, but everybody does it, One word about this. I have found that one way of using metal eyelets and making them look much more acceptable is to overstitch them once they are in place - it also helps to keep the eyelets secure. For fabrics that fray easily (velvet for example) I find that rough buttonholing round the hole, putting in the eyelet and then overstitching the eyelet makes a very strong hole for lacing. Having said all this I recently completed a Tudor where I did not use eyelets at all, but worked at creating a hole with a very large needle (so as not to break the threads in the weave of the fabric) and then buttonholing round it. The fabrics used were furnishing brocade and velvet and so far the holes have lasted quite well, although I have not worn the garment anything like as often (or for as long) as some of my other costumes. -- Maggie Percival ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 08:31:16 -0500 From: "Diana H." Subject: Re: 19th Century Eye Glasses Kimberly Burnette wrote: > > Does anyone know of a source for 19th century glasses? Specifically, I am > searching for glasses that would be appropriate for the time period from > 1845-1855. Dear Kimberly, While trying to find a source to buy my stockings, I was directed to the James Townsend & son website. They sell Civil War reenactment supplies and I remember at least two different styles of spectacles in their inventory. I apologize that I do not remember their prices, but they looked like what you might need. The web site is at...www.jastown.com If you are unable to access it, or if you would rather have their postal address, just write me back & let me know. Happy shopping (you might want to hide your wallet while you look)! Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 13:54:34 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Re: 15th-century costume In a message dated 97-03-01 11:34:02 EST, you write: Here, I found it, I should have been more specific as well. Please respond off list if you think no one else would be interested. Gaelscot@AOL.COM wrote: << Okay, so here's a question. What fabrics would upper-class clothing be made of? Just silk and wool? How about linen -- was it ever used for outerwear? What about for those gowns that are worn over the chemise for casual outerwear but also worn under the really fancy stuff? What were THEY made of? And how about men's clothing? >> Did you ever get any responses back on the specifics of your question? I am curious about it as well. The reason I want to know is I live in Arizona, I am interested in developing a costume for a character who is very wealthy, widowed and somewhat of a free spirit. (She is carrying on her husband's merchant business) So I want to stay authentic within reason. I need to be able to ride a horse, and stay cool. Most of the things I've read talk about removing layers of clothing, but when you are dealing with temperatures between 80 and 115, that may not always cut it. I have tried to find a mailing list for those in SCA for my area, but have found all but mine, any suggestions?? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 13:54:37 -0500 From: Stephen John Borthwick Subject: 14th Century costume I am looking for a good reference to 14th century costume, especiallly the costumes of nobles, knights and heralds. Can anyone help ? Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 13:54:50 -0500 From: Scarlett Subject: Re: EMMA > It is curious, isn't it, that Jane Austen's novels are so popular right now. > America, Australia....I wonder if Europe/England is caught up in this > frenzy? >From someone in England: Jane Austen's novels have ALWAYS been very popular here-every couple of years there is a new TV version of one of her novels, there is invariably a theatre production somewhere around and she's on every A'level reading list I've ever seen. The only real difference is that Hollywood seems to be concentrating on historical novels and plays at the moment: e.g. "Jude", "Hamlet", "Sense And Sensibility" etc. What I want to know is - when will someone make a film of "Wuthering Heights" that is as dark, violent and scary as the book is? Every version I've seen so far has been so far from the book it's made it a romantic comedy, with Heathcliff as a nice bloke rather than a complete b*****d who beats his wife! (Cliff Richard plays him in the current musical version - 'nuff said). Anita. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 17:18:18 -0500 From: Nancee Beattie Subject: Re: The use of Linen in period costumes 1300-1600 >I don't have actual documentation, >but seeing the way things hang should convince you that linen was not used as outerwear. > I have seen a 15th-century manuscript (French or Flemish) depicting ladies in a courtyard. They are all in shades of white and off-white, and the gowns seem very crisp, instead of the usual drapey look. This has to be linen. Not the best documentation, but it is pretty good evidence. My vote is that linen was used for outerwear, when appropriate (warm weather). Nancee To most people solutions mean finding the answers. But to chemists solutions are things that are still all mixed up. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 17:17:51 -0500 From: Agnes Gawne Subject: aprons One of my good friends here in Seattle is working on a presentation for a small local museum on the history/development of aprons in the twentieth century. She has heard that there is an "Apron Club" somewhere in the Eastern United States. Do any of you list members know a contact for this club? You may respond to me off list if you like. Thanks, Agnes Gawne gawne@u.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 17:20:05 -0500 From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: 14th Century costume On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Stephen John Borthwick wrote: > I am looking for a good reference to 14th century costume, especiallly > the costumes of nobles, knights and heralds. Can anyone help ? There aren't any books *just* on what heralds *wore*. A good source for pictures on English heralds is _The College of Arms_, by Anthony Wagner, who until his death about a year ago, was a member of the English College of Arms. His book is the most complete book on the history of the CoA around. It is a history of the CoA, but it does have a lot of good pictures. Jaelle/Judy jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 17:20:07 -0500 From: Whitney Subject: Re: 14th Century costume Stephen John Borthwick wrote: > > I am looking for a good reference to 14th century costume, especiallly > the costumes of nobles, knights and heralds. Can anyone help ? > You might try looking first at artwork from the period - paintings, sculpture, the beautiful sculpture around a coffin, etc. This will show you a period interpretation of what they wore, instead of someone's interpretation that was done 300-400 years later. That is the problem with most costume books, they are redrawn by someone. Honestly, their guess is as good as yours. Depending on what you want to make, there are a number of good books on the "how to". -- Whitney ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 17:20:16 -0500 From: Carole Newson-Smith Subject: Cookbooks for 1812 Elizabeth, I have three cookbooks which might be appropriate for your cookout. They are at home, but I believe they are called something like: The Williamsburg cookbook Martha Washington's cookbook, published by Columbia University Eliza Smith's cookbook, famous for being the first cookbook published in this country. If you cannot get your hands on any of these and want to look at them sometime, that could be arranged. I work in Redwood City and live in Santa Clara. Sunday I plan to be in Heyward for the afternoon. Carole (Cordelia Toser in the SCA) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 23:04:13 -0500 From: Roxann Barber Subject: Re: aprons Agnes Gawne wrote: > > One of my good friends here in Seattle is working on a presentation for a > small local museum on the history/development of aprons in the twentieth > century. She has heard that there is an "Apron Club" somewhere in the > Eastern United States. Do any of you list members know a contact for this > club? > > You may respond to me off list if you like. > > Thanks, > Agnes Gawne > gawne@u.washington.edu Respond to me too. We have a late 19th early 20th C. apron at school I would like to know more about. Roxy Barber ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 23:04:19 -0500 From: J&B Subject: HISTORIC THEATRE COSTUMES Dear fellow costume/film buffs, I was re-watching "Jefferson in Paris" tonight while doing some paperwork. I had the sound off, as the script is not particularly good, but the costumes and sets are visually stunning. Hair, makeup and clothing were really delightful, until . . . . that scene in the opera house!! The stage scenery was made to look intentionally crude, the acting by the male singer was nonexistent and the dancing style and costumes on the stage in the opera house were not only late 17th c, not late 18th c,but not theatre costumes at all- merely stylized 17th c street clothes. I suspect they were borrowed from one of those "Arts Florissants" productions of "Atys." Which brings me to the point. I choreograph and do acting and gesture work for a Minneapolis based opera company that specializes in recreating pre 1800 music theatre,(scenery, costumes, makeup, acting style, musical style etc.) so I am particularly interested in historic theatre costuming (that is, the type of costuming that would acually have been used in a 16th, 17th or 18th c theatre production.) If there's anyone else doing this type of research or interested in this particular field -I'd love to hear from you. Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 23:04:28 -0500 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Allemande Workshop in San Francisco Bay Area ALLEMANDE WORKSHOP Taught by Allan Terry and Frances Grimble The allemande was a couple dance, probably derived from the German landler, which was a precursor of 19th-century closed-couple dances such as the waltz. We will teach several basic steps and arm movements, then sequences from two late 18th-century manuals. This is a two-part workshop and different material will be taught in each part. Dancers are encouraged to wear shoes with soft, flexible soles and very low heels. Friday April 11 and Friday May 9 8 p.m. to 9 or 9:30 p.m. Followed by English Country Dancing Called by Alan Winston St. Mark's Episcopal Church 600 Colorado (near Middlefield) Palo Alto, CA $5/person No Partner or Previous Experience Required The workshops are sponsored by the Bay Area English Regency Society. For more information call Vanessa Schnatmeier at 415/856-2259. Or browse our web site at http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 23:04:40 -0500 From: Tim Allison Subject: silk stockings I am trying to find a source for silk stockings, preferably for less than $25 a pair. I know there used to be a company called FUNN in England that sold them cheaply, but they apparently went out of business. Can anyone give me any referrals? And please, it's silk, not nylon. Those are easy to find. Carol Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 23:04:54 -0500 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Allemande Workshop in San Francisco Bay Area ALLEMANDE WORKSHOP Taught by Allan Terry and Frances Grimble The allemande was a couple dance, probably derived from the German landler, which was a precursor of 19th-century closed-couple dances such as the waltz. We will teach several basic steps and arm movements, then sequences from two late 18th-century manuals. This is a two-part workshop and different material will be taught in each part. Dancers are encouraged to wear shoes with soft, flexible soles and very low heels. Friday April 11 and Friday May 9 8 p.m. to 9 or 9:30 p.m. Followed by English Country Dancing Called by Alan Winston St. Mark's Episcopal Church 600 Colorado (near Middlefield) Palo Alto, CA $5/person No Partner or Previous Experience Required The workshops are sponsored by the Bay Area English Regency Society. For more information call Vanessa Schnatmeier at 415/856-2259. Or browse our web site at http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm. ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 4 Mar 1997 to 5 Mar 1997 ************************************************** From ???@??? Fri Mar 07 11:43:09 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA24657 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 7 Mar 1997 06:22:30 +0100 Message-Id: <199703070522.AA24657@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <9.656E9054@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 6:22:29 +0100 Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 00:02:51 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 5 Mar 1997 to 6 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 14 messages totalling 446 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Costume Con 2. The use of Linen in period costumes 1300-1600 (3) 3. Pattern Drafting 4. FW: H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Feb 1997 to 18 Feb 1997 5. Beginner costumers questions and stuff 6. LETTICE CAP 7. Handsewn Seams and Book question 8. Seams 9. [Fwd: Re: Beginner costumers questions and stuff] 10. (Copy) Beginner says "Thanks" (fwd) 11. Dress affecting Dance 12. HISTORIC THEATRE COSTUMES ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:00:50 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Costume Con I am interested in going to Costume Con in late May. Does anyone know how I can get in touch with them? I have gone to their web page but both email addresses are not working. Thanks, Penny Penny E. Dunlap-Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University (& finally graduating in May) s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:00:55 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: Re: The use of Linen in period costumes 1300-1600 On Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:57:17 -0500 No Name writes: >Someone posted a note a few days ago (which I've lost already, so >forgive me >if I misquote here) asking about whether the wealthy (aristocratic??) >might >have worn linen (as outerwear as opposed to linings? etc.) as everyday >wear. > I don't remember if a period was given, so I'll qualify it with my >interests, say 1300-1600. I know wool was common, but was there a >typically >"less formal" fabric that was used in warm weather besides silk?? I >was >curious if there were any responses. I seemed to miss them if there >were. > I've been checking _Costume in the Drama of Shapespeare and His Contemporaries_ by M. Channing Linthicum. Linen is not listed as outerwear by the wealthy, but 'fustian', which was used in Elizabethan times, had a mixture of linen yarn with cotton ones. It was a mock velvet, and was used by the gentry to simulate silk velvet. This is a wonderful book, which does not limit its information to late Elizabethan. Linthicum has searched shipping ladings, inventories, household accounts, custom records, etc., etc., etc. for the earliest accounts of when a fabric, style, accessory, etc. was used, listed, purchased, imported, etc. It makes wonderful documentation for English costuming, but also has some mention of other countries: what was imported, which tells you what was available, for instance, in France, Italy, Ireland or other countries. She documents each referance. It's available in some libraries, and has been reprinted by Falconwood Press. I don't have the original posting, either, so I don't remember if it was only English costume. Surely, in the hotter countries, there would have been some linen summer clothing. Herald mentions a linen fabric used for a simple, loose-fitting gown similar to the ones worn by angels. I wore a wool blazer and skirt to tour the Tower of London on July 4th one year, and I've attended lots of events in German castles, which are cold even in summer. Summers in the USA are quite different. We need to be a bit anachronistic, here, in the interests of health as well as the difference between the contents in Allison's pouch and Lyn's wallet. Yes, there are beautiful velvet full Elizabethan outfits worn at Pennsic, and I admire them, but as a Chirurgeon, have treated far too many heat victims to plan to dress that way, myself. I have bought some linen recently for skirts, and two pieces for bodices--which I will make up as soon as I answer all my e-mail...sometime in 2005? ;-) Allison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:00:59 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: Re: Pattern Drafting Hello Anne, Some of the books I like for drafting patterns are: 1. Ingham, Rosemary & Covey, Elizabeth. _The Costumer's Handbook_, Prentice Hall, NJ, 1980. This is especially for theater costuming, but the pattern principles are the same. 2. Arnold, Janet. _Patterns of Fashion_, 3 volumes, McMillan London Lmt., 1985. She measures existing garments and creates the pattern peices from them; there are excellent photos of details of construction. The 3 volumes cover different time periods. I have vol. 1, 1560-1620. 3. Hunnisett--well, I can't find it at the moment, but you should be able to find that in a book store, or have your store order a copy for you. 4. de Alcega, Juan. _Tailor's Pattern Book 1589_. Ruth Bean, publisher. Translated and reproduced from the Spanish original. Try to become familiar with some modern pattern drafting for yourself before you attempt to recreate de Alcega's patterns, or the ones that Janet Arnold has done; they're authentic but not the easiest for beginners. Good luck and happy drafting, Allison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:01:16 -0500 From: "Diana H." Subject: Re: The use of Linen in period costumes 1300-1600 Nancee Beattie wrote: > > >I don't have actual documentation, > >but seeing the way things hang should convince you that linen was not used > as outerwear. > > > > I have seen a 15th-century manuscript (French or Flemish) depicting ladies > in a courtyard. They are all in shades of white and off-white, and the > gowns seem very crisp, instead of the usual drapey look. This has to be > linen. Not the best documentation, but it is pretty good evidence. My vote > is that linen was used for outerwear, when appropriate (warm weather). Thank you for the reference but in my original post, I qualified the above statement with "most of the 1500-1600 styles throughout Europe...". I would agree with you that before the 16th century that linen was used as outerwear. But for the time period I specified, having made several renaissance outfits, that linen just won't give the right look, drape, or weight to the clothing. Hope that clears things up. Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:01:19 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: FW: H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Feb 1997 to 18 Feb 1997 In a message dated 97-03-04 15:57:49 EST, LAW4AXG7@novell4.bham.ac.uk (Scarlett) writes: > > Forgive me if I'm missing the point of this, but every Englishwoman > I've met wears both her engagement ring AND her wedding ring on the > third finger of her left hand. There is sometimes an eternity ring on > this finger too. Do Americans not do this? > > Anita. > > Intrestingly, the English wear their wedding rings on their left hand. > Being > > a Norwegian married to an Englishman I choose to wear my wedding ring on > the > > left - not as a token to my husband, but rather because I felt the ring > was > I took this to mean that as a norwegian woman, she grew up expecting to wear her weddings on her right hand Maggie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:01:27 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: Re: Beginner costumers questions and stuff Maggie, Thanks for the tip about buttonhole stitch *under* the eyelet. Never heard that one before. As to eyelets being *cheating*, the Italians used little rings, called 'maglia', sometimes eyelets says Herald, and sometimes made of gold or silver. Probably plated, for strength, I'd think. They often sewed over them, as we do. Linthicum mentions eyelets for points, but doesn't say how they were constructed--thread only, or something else as well. Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion 1560_ shows metal rings under the eyelet holes on a pair of bodies, photo 328, also 87. Don't have as precise information for other countries. Allison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:01:30 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: Re: LETTICE CAP On Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:55:19 -0500 Tina Carney writes: >I am looking for anyone who could suggest further information on a >lettice >cap. It was fashionable in the early tudor days and I only have seen >one >reference to it in Cunnington. > >Anyone know what I'm talking about? > >Tina >researcher of hats This is from _Costume in the Drama of Shakespeare and His Contemporaries_, M. Channing Linthicum. LETTICE CAP The lettice cap was of grey fur, resembling ermine, the ladies' style having three corners 'like the forked cappes of Popishe Priestes'. (6.) In _Monsieur Thomas_ and _Thierry and Theodoret_ the lettice cap does not refer to this headdress but to a salad of lettuce eaten just before retiring, to produce somnolence. 6. Stubbes, _Anatomy of Abuses_, p. 63. The wearing of lettice was forbidden in 1402 to any one below the state of 'banneret'. Rotuli Parliamentorum, 1278-1503. London, 1767-1832. 7 vols. Probably more than you wanted to know, and you still don't know whether to eat it or wear it. Sorry, that's all I could find. Allison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:01:34 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: Handsewn Seams and Book question In a message dated 97-03-05 08:33:19 EST, wander@hooked.net (Margo Anderson) writes: > > There's one more error that isn't recommended in the book, but is shown in > several of the illustrations. It's a make-do solution to the problem of a > bodice slipping off the shoulders, due to the back neckline being cut in a > low curve: a pair of eyelets on the shoulder straps, and a lace threaded > through them and tied. Cut your bodice back higher instead. > > I remember when we all actually did that at Faire. How much we've all learned over the years!. Margo's notes are right on. I think I have a few more, but it's late and the system is about to go down and I need to get out my copy and check my annotations. :) MaggiRos Mary Countess of Southampton Mairghread-Ros FitzGarrett of Desmond, O.L. (Caid) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:02:53 -0500 From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: The use of Linen in period costumes 1300-1600 > I have seen a 15th-century manuscript (French or Flemish) depicting ladies > in a courtyard. They are all in shades of white and off-white, and the > gowns seem very crisp, instead of the usual drapey look. This has to be > linen. Not the best documentation, but it is pretty good evidence. My vote > is that linen was used for outerwear, when appropriate (warm weather). > > Nancee > > To most people solutions mean finding the answers. But to chemists > solutions are things that are still all mixed up. Why would you presume a "crisp" looking dress in an illumination would be linen? It is harder for linen to hold a shape then say, taffeta, a very crisp and popular silk in the 15th century going on the wedding and household accounts and wills of the English I've looked at. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:01:24 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: Seams In a message dated 97-03-04 15:59:34 EST, aquazoo@dcez.com (Ed Safford & Carol Kocian) writes: > > It's tough when the beginning reenactor generaly starts by making a > shirt or shift. The "simple" garment requires the most skill for making > seams. The only simple part is the cutting. > > -Carol Kocian > That is so true. To this day I have never made a t-tunic that fits properly, yet I have constructed numerous full court elizabethans, male and female, with good results (and a lot of swearing). MaggiRos ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:01:13 -0500 From: "Diana H." Subject: [Fwd: Re: Beginner costumers questions and stuff] X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Message-ID: <331ECC6D.7571@inreach.com> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 05:53:49 -0800 From: "Diana H." Organization: none X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maggie Percival Subject: Re: Beginner costumers questions and stuff References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maggie Percival wrote: > Having said all this I recently completed a Tudor where I did not use > eyelets at all, but worked at creating a hole with a very large needle > (so as not to break the threads in the weave of the fabric) and then > buttonholing round it. Dear Maggie, I use a similar method but I use a leather awl to create the hole. Mine happens to be graduated (I got it from Lacis) and I can get holes of approximately 5mm or so--after stitching. I also use embroidery floss for the holes since it is thicker and seems to withstand regular use farly well. The only frustration with these types of eyelet holes is the need to periodically re-open the hole using the awl. Just a few further suggestions! Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 16:20:34 -0500 From: Wendy Robertson & Tim Weitzel Subject: (Copy) Beginner says "Thanks" (fwd) Forwarded for my sister. WCR ---------- Forwarded message ---------- X-Sender: pnomail@bratshb.uwc.edu Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 20:33:42 -0600 To: wendy-robertson@UIOWA.EDU Subject: Beginner says "Thanks" Wow Wendy, I'm overwhelmed by the wealth of information given from my questions. Please clip this and forward to the list. I don't feel like trying again. Thank you all for the information and help. I will now go and pester the library with inter-library loan requests. The local branch has Francis Grimble's book, but not Janet Arnold's. (I have enjoyed it.) The tunic I tried worked. The only waste I had were the serged seam trailings, and the neck opening. I think I did it right. I am still baffled by sleeve shape. It sounds like the modern description, "kimono shape" sleeves are what I am aiming for (1450-1550 England) tapered to the wrist. DJ on her husband's account ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 16:25:13 -0500 From: S Weinberger Subject: Dress affecting Dance Greeting all, I am hoping that some of you experienced in both dance and costuming might be able to answer this. I am currently taking a vintage dance class (the dances range fromRegency to Ragtime. ) We were learning the late 19th century waltz last week and I had a question that noone could seem to answer about the evolution of dance. The dance instructor was showing us the difference between the mid-century waltz and the late century. In the mid-century (pardon the difficulty in explaining this without being able to show it) the person steps behind the other foot to make a little pivot (like the Regency waltz but without going up on the toes) whereas in the late century waltz the person puts the feet side by side at that point in the dance. I thought about this and was wondering if this change was affected by the the woman's change in dress from strictly petticoats to the cage crinoline. It seems to me that pivoting would not be as easy in the cage crinoline because of the metal and the centrifical force and that is where the step together developed. the instructor said that the change in dance was happening around the late 50s to the 60s, which would make sense too. Thank you! Stacey ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 16:25:48 -0500 From: James & Bob Subject: Re: HISTORIC THEATRE COSTUMES Cindy Abel wrote: > > The team that did the costumes for "Jefferson in Paris," Jenny Beaven > and John Bright, are very well known for their costuming. I spotted > several costumes as being copies of museum examples or out of > portraits and engravings. > Dear Cindy - Exactly. I noticed the detailed copies of museum originals myself. Very impressive. Why then did they throw out the book when it came to the stage costumes for the opera scene? Bob Skiba ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 5 Mar 1997 to 6 Mar 1997 ************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Mar 13 09:52:42 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA02488 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 8 Mar 1997 06:27:27 +0100 Message-Id: <199703080527.AA02488@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <8.3E6B8537@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 6:27:22 +0100 Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 00:02:41 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Mar 1997 to 7 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 25 messages totalling 774 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. camlets 2. Dress affecting Dance (4) 3. costume-related museum positions... 4. restoration thear 5. Vanishing h-costume archives (2) 6. 1930s patterns 7. Warm weather fabrics (3) 8. 16th cent. personal hygiene (2) 9. Blackwork in Spain Question 10. Seams 11. Horsehair 12. 15th century headgear 13. CUSTOM FABRIC SOURCE? 14. use of linen for outerwear (1300-1600) 15. Fabric Paints for Stencilin 16. Lettuce Cap 17. Dress Affecting Dance 18. None ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:51:42 -0500 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: camlets I haven't been keeping up with the digests, but if the question about camlets has not been answered, here is the reference. Gary Leiser in the Textile Museum Journal 1993-1994 states that in the 15th century European writers used the term camlets to refer to various fabrics of animal origin, but by the 16th c. the term refers solely to *mohair*. (he also lists a variety of terms in European languages for mohair and other items) The article's title is something like "travelers accounts of the mohair industry in Ankara". The author cites all his sources, very scholarly. The publication is still available for purchase from the Museum, as far as I know. also the article opens with a quote from Shakespeare (Henry VIII) something about "you in the camlet, up on the rail". One of the European authors (I'm paraphrasing) states that the fabric produced in Ankara, esp. the "watered" mohair, and the garments made from it are so exquisite, that European garments in comparison "are but rags". Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:52:17 -0500 From: Snookles Subject: Re: Dress affecting Dance Hi Stacey, > The dance instructor was showing us the difference between the mid-century > waltz and the late century. In the mid-century (pardon the difficulty in > explaining this without being able to show it) the person steps behind the > other foot to make a little pivot (like the Regency waltz but without going > up on the toes) whereas in the late century waltz the person puts the feet > side by side at that point in the dance. It sounds to me like you're describing the difference between what's modernly called the "Viennese waltz" and the more classical (generic) waltz. Crossing the feet allows the dancer to quickly spin on the 2nd and 5th beats (while in closed position with their partner), while the side-by- side configuration is for a slower turn. In today's ballroom dancing, we use the Viennese waltz for when the music is too fast for a graceful turn. Was the music significantly faster in the middle of the century? =============-------------------- degrool@engr.orst.edu (Luana DeGrood) | Rule #1: There are no rules. | sow a seed of discord Rule #2: Don't believe everything you read. | -=- --------------------------============= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:52:24 -0500 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: Dress affecting Dance S Weinberger wrote: > > Greeting all, > > I am hoping that some of you experienced in both dance and costuming might be > able to answer this. I am currently taking a vintage dance class (the dances > range fromRegency to Ragtime. ) We were learning the late 19th century waltz > last week and I had a question that noone could seem to answer about the > evolution of dance. > > The dance instructor was showing us the difference between the mid-century > waltz and the late century. In the mid-century (pardon the difficulty in > explaining this without being able to show it) the person steps behind the > other foot to make a little pivot (like the Regency waltz but without going up > on the toes) whereas in the late century waltz the person puts the feet side by > side at that point in the dance. I thought about this and was wondering if > this change was affected by the the woman's change in dress from strictly > petticoats to the cage crinoline. I doubt it. I have done both types of waltz for years, in hoopskirts, bustle dresses, and early 20th-century vintage clothes. I have not noticed that any of these styles make either type of waltz easier or harder. Of course, practically any type of dance is easier in modern dance wear. Social dance wear of any era is not necessarily convenient for the type of dance being done, nor are the dances necessarily tailored to what was worn. But if you want to know whether a dance is harder or easier in a given set of clothes, I suggest just trying it in those clothes. After you have learned the dance, so that being in the middle of the learning process is not a factor. Fran Grimble http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:52:28 -0500 From: Kendra Van Cleave/SF Subject: costume-related museum positions... Hello. I was wondering how many people on this list work in a costume-related museum position -- and what exactly your job title and duties are? (As you can guess, I'm hoping to enter this field, and I want to get an idea of what's *really* out there). Also, if you could mention what academic background you have (ie BA, MA -- if so, in what field?) I'd really appreciate any replies, as it's been hard for me to get an idea of the reality of this field. Please either reply to the list, or to me personally at kendrav@bizwire.com. Thanks, Kendra Van Cleave ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:52:31 -0500 From: James & Bob Subject: Re: Dress affecting Dance S Weinberger wrote: > > The dance instructor was showing us the difference between the mid-century > waltz and the late century. . I thought about this and was wondering if > this change was affected by the the woman's change in dress from strictly > petticoats to the cage crinoline. It seems to me that pivoting would not be as > easy in the cage crinoline because of the metal and the centrifical force and > that is where the step together developed. the instructor said that the change > in dance was happening around the late 50s to the 60s, which would make sense > too. Dear Stacey - Many factors affect the changes in dancing style. I hope that your instructor(who was it, by the way?) explained that the real reason for the change in waltz style from early to late 19th century was to allow for a reverse (left) turn which was not possible with the earlier style waltz. The other thing that differentiates the two styles of waltzing is that in the earlier style you are continually stepping into your partner, quite intimate and romantic. In the later style, you step either forward or backward into line of direction. I suspect that this emphasis on forward and backward movements made it a bit easier to deal with 70s bustles. Does fashion affect dancing and vice versa? Definitely. On one hand the ragtime dances had an impact on the abandonment of tight corseting, and on the other it was not until skirts became short enough in the 20s that a dance as energetic as the Charleston could even be possible for the average woman. Have fun dancing and making/wearing vintage clothing! I think the two go "hand in glove!" Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:52:43 -0500 From: Anne Shakarian Subject: restoration thear I am doing a paper on restoration theatre and Inigo Jones but I am having very little luck finding information. If you could help me I am mainly looking for info on Ingio Jones work not his life. thank you very much anne shakarian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:52:48 -0500 From: aleed Subject: Vanishing h-costume archives I just went looking for the h-costume archives, to find them gone! The URL I have for the site is: http://reality.sgi.com/pdc/h-costume/ Anyone know where it went? Drea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:56:25 -0500 From: suzanne hader Subject: Re: Vanishing h-costume archives I did not maintain these archives, so I can't speak to where they've gone. *but*... You can find h-costume archives two other ways: 1. The last month (or so) of postings is archived on the web at www.reference.com (do a search for h-costume, and then "browse") 2. You can get the last 4-6 months of postings via email from listserv. There is a web page describing how to do this at: http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/smh/vintage/listserv.html This site is technically for the vintage mailing list, which I also manage, but the directions are the same. Just substitute "h-costume" for "vintage" and you'll be all set. suzanne > > I just went looking for the h-costume archives, to find them gone! The > URL I have for the site is: http://reality.sgi.com/pdc/h-costume/ > > Anyone know where it went? > > Drea > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:56:50 -0500 From: ches Subject: Re: 1930s patterns There is an older gentle man who is a very good and knowledgeable person. He claims to be the janitor. You must have to remember not to call the 800 number if you want to ask questions of a specific item. Ciao Ches ---------- : : Dale Loberger wrote: : > : > : > I, too, have found Amazon s telephone people to be somewhat "busy," and : > definitely clueless about their products and even history in general, : > but Janet Burgess is a very nice person and very helpful. You just have : > to call their consultation line, not the toll-free one, to talk to her. : > There is also a gentleman who sometimes answers the phone who seems : > more knowledgeable than the rest. : > : > Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring : ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:56:54 -0500 From: ches Subject: Warm weather fabrics I will be holding a meeting of ladies in the local area here in my home next month and they want to discuss warm weather fabrics. I.E. The summer months are upon us and they want to make suitable clothing for upcoming S.C.A. events. My questions are: What in your experience has been the best fabrics to use period and non period to survive 100+ degree weather with high humidity? (These ladies are very particulate about their period. I would like to compile a list of fabrics and let them do the research on for their period to see if it is suitable or not). What cuts of patterns have you in your experience found to be the best for women, men, and especially young teens. (Young children generally are not brought out in 100+degree times of the year). I understand that Viking is the best but these ladies are not that early. In fact I only know of two who do it very well and they will not be at our meeting. Still I want to know if you have references for it. We do not want to die in the heat either because we all decided to make something that is not airy enough. Middle eastern is all layers upon layers if you want to really do it right. That much silk is expensive and I am not yet convinced that it breaths well enough to justify wearing it out to a site that is a dust bowl. I understand that this may not be enough information for some of you hard core authenticity types but we want to look the part without dying in the heat of Texas summers. Ciao Ches ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:56:57 -0500 From: B Scott Subject: Re: 16th cent. personal hygiene Dear List et al, Ive been on the list for not much more than a month and now feel a need to speak. RE: 16th cent personal Hygiene messages. I feel this a "COSTUME" history mailing list and wonder why we are soooo concerned by what was "not" worn. We seem to be straying from the concept of the list. Why not take up matters of design and style and taste. We should be learning fabric,clothing and style- and how to truly capture the feeling of historical dress,rather then obsessing on the absent of pubic hair. I for one am a dedicated costume designer that wants to see beauty and justice done when creating clothing for a project. Lets move on. Thanks B. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:57:00 -0500 From: EowynA@aol.com Subject: Blackwork in Spain Question Hi! I mostly lurk on the list, but am encouraged to post my question by the flurry of embroidery questions I saw earlier this year. Most books on Blackwork Embroidery state that it came to England with Catherine of Aragon and her ladies. I realize that there is evidence for blackwork in England before that date. What I am curious about is evidence for blackwork in Spain at about that time or earlier. The small black and white pictures in Milia Davenport's book are just too small for me to make out any embroidery. Does anyone know of any paintings I should try to find copies of for documenting blackwork in Spain? Are there any good sources for illustrations of people wearing blackwork in Spain in the late 1400's or early 1500's? I am beginning to think that the "migration" of the blackwork style apparently known as "Spanish Stitch" from Spain to England may be just myth and lore. Can anyone enlighten me? Thanks, Melinda (EowynA@aol.com) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:57:03 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: Re: Seams MaggiRos, >with good results (and a lot of swearing). Are there people whose sewing machines work without that kick-start? Allison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:57:06 -0500 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Horsehair Northshield Folk wrote: > > BE>Chandler, Sally A. wrote: > BE>> > BE>> Some medieval garments were, apparently, stuffed with horsehair - > BE>> particularly arming caps and aketons. Excuse my ignorance, but would this > BE>> be the sort of horsehair you brush off the animal when you're grooming it > BE>> something else? > BE>> > > BE>I suspect that what they probably mean is mane or tail hair. This is > BE>frequently used in stuffing upholstery. Not something I'd want to use > BE>in clothes myself but it would work. > > BE>Carolyn > > I have not seen reference to arming caps stuffed with horsehair, I have > seen > references to wool, or cotton. > I fight in armor every weekend. From personal experience I could tell > you that > horse hair would be rather dense for the job, and downright > uncomfortable. > If they did wear them in period they were far from comfortable in my > estimation. > It wouldn't be the first time something done in period would be found completely uncomfortable by today's standards. One of the reasons horsehair is used in upholstery is because it *is* dense. Hard to find nowadays in quantities large and cheap enough for stuffing chairs so most of the upholstery references I have say "save it!" - it doesn't wear out easily. I doubt they were using cotton in Medieval period since that was pretty rare around Europe until the later Renaissance. Wool is a definite possibility. CArolyn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:57:09 -0500 From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: 15th century headgear Thanks for the comments from people, especially Dave and Maggie (Maggie, would you mind if I forwarded your comments to Dave?) I'll have a look at the pictures, I think they are all in the book on Flemish pictures I've mentioned before. The specific one which has caught my eye is by Roger van der Weyden, she is looking to the left and is wearing a particularly silly looking wimple, which is pinned under her ears (well, her right one anyway,) and goes on behind the ear. The horns do not look wired, they look more padded than that. Having now had a look at Margaret Scott's "14th and 15th Centuries" it does look as tho' the English tended to wear the horns further back and towards the crown of the head, rather than sideways as the Flemish, and particularly the Germans tended to. I'm mainly going by the brasses of William Gybbys and his wives Alice, Margaret and Marion (1470?); Robert Ingylton is wives and children etc (1472?) (ignoring the butterfly headress as that's more fashionable than I'm interested in) and Henry Stathum and his wives (1481). Another difference seems to be that the veil does not come as low on the forehead as the Flemish ones, being above the eyebrows. BTW - in response to the 'Beginner's comments' - certainly by the 1450's in England the sleeve heads must be S-shaped - the bodice and sleeve are closely fitted, there is no sign of dropped shoulders except in some of the men's outer garments (and there I'm doubtful) and there is no sign of the extra fabric under the arms which straight seams would involve. As to smocks and shirts, please avoid drawstring necks, at least up to 1600 (and my friends who do 17th century say they haven't any evidence for drawstrings then either). The necks are either round or gathered to a band (which comes in in the 16th century). Fuller sleeves, gathered at the cuff also come in in the 16th century on shirts and smocks. I wondered, given the full sleeves, gathered to cuffs, in the 14th century on outer wear, whether there was any evidence of fuller sleeves on shirts and smocks then? Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:57:23 -0500 From: No Name Subject: CUSTOM FABRIC SOURCE? Does anyone know of a company that will custom weave fabric for you? I thought I had found one (Angus International), but they have just stopped doing it. A few years ago I made a riding habit out of some bi-coloured actetae taffeta. It had a warp thread of black and weft of (EEEEK!!) bright orange/yellow. The result was an irredescent rich coffee colour. ANYWAY, I've had a request for a side saddle habit made from the same material. The store I bought it at has something similar, but not the same, instead of the bright yellow/orange, it is drab yellow; the resulting fabric is drab/dull by comparison. Customer would take acetate, but would rather have it in silk. Any suggestions? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:57:12 -0500 From: David Key Subject: Re: use of linen for outerwear (1300-1600) A few thoughts on some of the discussion on this subject 1. Allison wrote ... > I've been checking _Costume in the Drama of Shapespeare and His > Contemporaries_ by M. Channing Linthicum. Linen is not listed as > outerwear by the wealthy, but 'fustian', which was used in Elizabethan > times, had a mixture of linen yarn with cotton ones. It was a mock > velvet, and was used by the gentry to simulate silk velvet. Whilst trying to avoid the subject of "what" fustian is (which I could get into 'again' but I don't think I'd be very popular) this type of fabric seems to have become popular in the C15th. It appears as the fabric for a doublet in Fastolf's inventory for 1459 (alongside a linen doublet if I recall) BUT it was explicitly prohibited to anyone with an annual income of less than $40 in Edward IV's 1463 Sumptuary Act. Its popularity seems to have grown thereafter (but probably because the importation of the cloth from South Germany via Antwerp was taking off ... reaching a large scale at the end of the C15th with the Fuggers ... rather than to flout the law!) As regards the original 1300-1600 date line I would therefore recommend this type of cloth only for c.1450-1600. However BACK TO LINEN ... other than the 'because I like it' arguement I have seen pitifully little evidence for linen being used for 'outer-wear' ... or the outer layer of inner garments other than Kerchiefs, Smocks, Shirts, hose (knee length) and gloves. The doublets mentioned above are notable for their unusualness. In response to Nancee's comment that > I have seen a 15th-century manuscript (French or Flemish) depicting laies > in a courtyard. They are all in shades of white and off-white, and th > gowns seem very crisp, instead of the usual drapey look. This has to e > linen. Not the best documentation, but it is pretty good evidence. Myvote > is that linen was used for outerwear, when appropriate (warm weather). I would agree with Teresa ... > Why would you presume a "crisp" looking dress in an illumination wouldbe > linen? y and add ... what is the manuscript illumination you are talking about as, if you are correct, I'd be very interested. Similarly Rose said ... >Thank you for the reference but in my original post, I qualified the above >statement with "most of the 1500-1600 styles throughout Europe...". > >I would agree with you that before the 16th century that linen was used as >outerwear. But for the time period I specified, having made several >renaissance outfits, that linen just won't give the right look, >drape, or weight to the clothing. > >Hope that clears things up. Unfortunately for me, no it doesn't. I am unaware of the evidence to support the assertion that linen was widely used for outer layers of clothing. Please, Please if anyone has specific, primary evidence which will add to this then I would like to know, esp. for the c15th. Refs. to published wills, inventories etc. will be most gratefully received. But not subjective "they must have worn it because it is too hot in California in 1997". It is surprising how fast you can get used to multiple layers of woollen & linen cloth even in 30+ degree temps I look forward to hearing your views & refs. Cheers Dave ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 21:55:56 -0500 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: Dress affecting Dance To clarify some more: The waltz with the pivot Stacey describes is the waltz a trois temps. It was not directly supplanted by the late 19th-century "new waltz," but--during the crinoline period--by the waltz a deux temps. The waltz a deux temps is seldom taught in vintage dance classes. It is not identical to the ragtime two-step. When done turning, the first two steps are to the side and the entire half-turn is done on the third step. This is supposed to be a step or "slight spring." It is tempting, when doing such a sharp turn, to make the third step with a real leap, which period manuals warn against enough to make me think many dancers did do a real leap. My point is that the waltz style with the sharpest turn coincides directly with the crinoline period, which it would not have done if people found this difficult. Which actually it is not. It is also necessary to consider that a number of dance forms, and variations of their basic steps, would have been done in the course of an evening. There are many mazurka, polka, schottische, and 5/4 waltz variations that involve a hop-turn that is sharper than the waltz a trois temps. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 21:56:00 -0500 From: Karen Lovejoy Subject: Fabric Paints for Stencilin Does anyone know of a good paint to use for stencils on fabric. I need something that will make very narrow lines and will not be thick or gummy. Spray would be ideal but I will take anything I can get. Thanks in advance for the help. Karen Hmmm... I wonder ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 21:56:03 -0500 From: David Key Subject: Re: Lettuce Cap Sorry I haven't the refs to hand but Lettuce is a type of fur, squirrel if I remember correctly. From memory it is a grey fur taken from the womb of the winter coat ... I'll try & check. There are numerous (to say the least) different names for the different types of fur, dependent upon the animal, its origin, the season & the part of the fur used. There is a book which details all of the different furs (esp. squirrel which seems to have been quite a favourite) & their names ... somethintg like The Medieval Fur Trade ... I'll post the proper title tomorrow if no one else knows it off-hand. Cheers, Dave ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 21:56:09 -0500 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Dress Affecting Dance Sorry this is so fragmented--I go through my messages one by one instead of reading them all first. Anyway, it is not necessarily correct to assume that, even when the clothes of a period are well suited to the dance, there is a direct influence. It's not like people said, "We've got loose dresses so let's invent the Charleston," or "We'll change the entire clothing silhouette just so we can do this dance." The Charleston was derived from 1920s theatrical choreographies of earlier black dances done in both social and performance settings. I have film shorts of cakewalks from 1901-1903 (they have copyright dates) that show steps later used in the Charleston as well as other quite vigorous movements. When making this kind of analysis it is also important to remember that about half the social/couple dancers in any period were men. Whose clothing had its own constraints, but who were not themselves wearing crinolines or flapper dresses. Fran Grimble http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 21:56:12 -0500 From: Northshield Folk Subject: Warm weather fabrics CH>What in your experience has been the best fabrics to use period and CH>non period to survive 100+ degree weather with high humidity? When it comes to heat, try for what looks period. If someone wants to berate you for not wearing a period fabric in a 100+ camping event kill them and hide the body. ( oh just kidding) CH>What cuts of patterns have you in your experience found to be the CH>best for women, men, and especially young teens. (Young children CH>generally are not brought out in 100+degree times of the year). Loose cuts, middle eastern, viking, early middle ages. CH>I understand that Viking is the best but these ladies are not that CH>early. Not bad but the wool aprons are a bit hot. If they wanted to make their aprons linen - this might be an ok trade off. I spend the majority of my summer living in the elements hot and cold at events. Quick list of my suggestions: Cotton gauze,linen in any variety, cotton that looks like linen. Save the silk for summer court garb. Wool for upper layers to throw on when it gets cool. I wear early period Viking/saxon/celtic type stuff most of the hot days. I also have a large amount of middle eastern, you can do it in cotton gauze, without tons of layers and be ok. A caftan with scarves and a head/face veil is covering and cool. The early period stuff I wear layers 1. sleeveless "leine"(long tunic) of cotton gauze. 2. a short sleeved overtunic of striped or plaid cotton gauze. 3. a pair of guaze pants or I wear bike shorts - no one can see them. 4. I have a linen or wool tunic to throw over when cold. 5. A leather cloak for rain and cold. With this I can go from 36 degrees to 105 degrees with changing layers. Hope this helps. Nancy Laughlin-Foust aka Morganna shadewescompany@on-ramp.com Glory,Magesty,Unity Warriors of the Northshield and the Known World ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 21:56:15 -0500 From: Carole Newson-Smith Subject: None LYN M PARKINSON writes: > >Some of the books I like for drafting patterns are: >4. de Alcega, Juan. _Tailor's Pattern Book 1589_. Ruth Bean, publisher. >Translated and reproduced from the Spanish original. Lynn, Do you have any additional information on the de Alcega book, such as ISBN number or contact information for Ms. Bean? I'd be interested in getting a copy of de Alcega for my library. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 21:56:18 -0500 From: Meaghan Waters Subject: Re: Warm weather fabrics Don't you just love trying to mimic cold Northeren European climates in a hot sticky environment - so much fun - love those rivulets of sweat down the backs of your legs.:-) I n my experience a linen smock will help immensely it feels cooler than anything else and stays feeling that way for a while. Style is often more helpful than fabric - anything that allows your armpits to breathe is good - so a style with tie on or detached sleeves works. Cotton or linen based fabrics mimicking other fabrics in drape and weight i.e damasks, velveteen, cotton sateen (a friend made a late 15th German in this that came up beautifully) are a good alternative. Other than that avoid wool, silk, or really hihg content poly (the Wool Board here in Aus claims that they have beautiful summer weight wools - one day I'll feel brave enough to risk it) Bye Meaghan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 21:56:36 -0500 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: 16th cent. personal hygiene At 11:56 AM 3/7/97 -0500, you wrote: >Dear List et al, >Ive been on the list for not much more than a month and now feel a need to >speak. RE: 16th cent personal Hygiene messages. I feel this a "COSTUME" >history mailing list and wonder why we are soooo concerned by what was "not" >worn. We seem to be straying from the concept of the list. Why not take up >matters of design and style and taste. We should be learning fabric,clothing >and style- and how to truly capture the feeling of historical dress,rather >then obsessing on the absent of pubic hair. I for one am a dedicated costume >designer that wants to see beauty and justice done when creating clothing for > a project. Lets move on. Thanks B. > >How nice for you that after a month on the list you feel qualified to tell us all what we should and should not have been discussing! Perhaps if you'd been with us a bit longer, you would know that to this list, the topic of "Costume" also includes such details as period grooming habits. I started this thread out of honest curiosity, both about the actual subject, and about the way costume myths develop. Judging from the number of responses, both on the list and by private email, that I've gotten, I wasn't alone in my interest. I suspect that if we had been discussing, say, eyebrow tweezing, you wouldn't be quite so indignant about our "obsessing". Yours in beauty and justice, Margo Anderson ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 6 Mar 1997 to 7 Mar 1997 ************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Mar 13 09:52:43 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA05617 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 9 Mar 1997 06:18:06 +0100 Message-Id: <199703090518.AA05617@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <5.1D3958D5@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 6:18:05 +0100 Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 00:01:03 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 7 Mar 1997 to 8 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 24 messages totalling 760 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 16th cent. personal hygiene (3) 2. Seams 3. restoration thear 4. Dress affecting Dance (2) 5. HISTORIC THEATRE COSTUMES 6. Heralds 7. camlets 8. Dress Affecting Dance 9. Hot weather fabric (2) 10. Warm weather fabrics (2) 11. POSTINGS 12. Cotehardie 13. Referenced Illuustration about the use of linen, personal hygiene, etc. 14. Mohair article 15. costume-related museum positions... 16. "S" sleeve heads and gathered necklines 17. 1950's V-Neck Sweaters 18. Harpers Bazar 19. Warm weather fabric/styles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 10:22:51 -0500 From: James & Bob Subject: Re: 16th cent. personal hygiene B Scott wrote: > I feel this a "COSTUME" > history mailing list and wonder why we are soooo concerned by what was "not" > worn. We seem to be straying from the concept of the list. Dear B- Sorry, but I can't help but wonder how you can't see that the study of clothing is inseparable from the study of social life, hygiene, manners etc. No field exists, or should exist in a cultural vacuum. My own interest in historical costuming stems from an interest in historical dance, for instance. Keep up the peripherals, guys!! Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 10:23:03 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: 16th cent. personal hygiene In a message dated 97-03-07 12:32:28 EST, MSBEASLEY@AOL.COM (B Scott) writes: > Dear List et al, > Ive been on the list for not much more than a month and now feel a need to > speak. RE: 16th cent personal Hygiene messages. I feel this a "COSTUME" > history mailing list and wonder why we are soooo concerned by what was "not" > worn. We seem to be straying from the concept of the list. Dear me. We also discuss accessories, eyeglasses, sumptuary laws, embroideries, and reasearch methods. All clothing is worn in the context of its time, and this--speaking without authority for those of who took up that thread, which has more or less spun itself out, in any case---looked like a part of that context worth exploring. May I respectfully suggest that the next time you notice that particular subject line, you pass it by. If you download your mail in a flashsession, you can always just delete the folder. Welcome aboard, Maggie Mary Countess of Southampton Mairghread-Ros FitzGarret of Desmond, O.L. (Caid) Mary Gage the soldier's friend ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 10:23:18 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: Seams In a message dated 97-03-07 12:46:41 EST, allilyn@juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) writes: > > >with good results (and a lot of swearing). > > > Are there people whose sewing machines work without that kick-start? > The only clothes I have ever made without swearing, and asking at least twice "what ever made me think I could sew?" are Renaissance Italians. They went together the very first time exactly as I expected them to, and behaved the entire time, even in heavy satin and a slightly boned bodice. Even Irish clothes aren't as easy. Maggie Mairghread-Ros FitzGarret of Desmond, O.L. (Caid) Mary Countess of Southampton Mary Gage the sojer's friend ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 10:23:23 -0500 From: James & Bob Subject: Re: restoration thear ANNE: For info on inigo Jones, try: "The King's Arcadia: Inigo Jones and the Stuart Court" (A catalogue of an exhibit at Whitehall, 1973) John Harris, Stephen Orgel and Roy Strong Arts Council of Great Britain "Inigo Jones, Complete Architectural Drawings" John Harris and Gordon Higgott 1989 The Drawing Center, N.Y. "Stuart Masques and the Renaissance Stage" Allardyce Nicoll Harcourt, Brace and Co., 1938 "A Sourcebook In Theatrical History" A.M. Nagler 1952 Dover Publications "The Renaissance Imagination" Essays by D.J.Gordon Edited by Stephen Orgel 1980 U. of California Press -Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 10:23:28 -0500 From: James & Bob Subject: Re: Dress affecting Dance Dear Stacey, Fran et al; Are you referring to the old waltz =E0 trois temps as opposed to the late = 19th c waltz =E0 deux = temps, or the late 19th c reversing waltz, two different things. Who was t= eaching, by the = way? Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 10:23:33 -0500 From: Aramanth Dawe Subject: Re: HISTORIC THEATRE COSTUMES At 04:25 PM 6/03/97 -0500, you wrote: >Cindy Abel wrote: >> >> The team that did the costumes for "Jefferson in Paris," Jenny Beaven >> and John Bright, are very well known for their costuming. I spotted >> several costumes as being copies of museum examples or out of >> portraits and engravings. >> >Dear Cindy - > >Exactly. I noticed the detailed copies of museum originals myself. Very impressive. Why >then did they throw out the book when it came to the stage costumes for the opera scene? > >Bob Skiba > Bob, I recall reading some years ago that well into the 18th centurey Theatre productions usually did not have consistant costuming. Whilst minor cast members could be compelled by management to wear appropriate costumes, many of the Principal Actors and Actresses refused to do so. They provided their own clothing to enhance what they believed to be their best features, and to H*** with any other considerations. Many of them were Names, and patrons would flock to the theatres to be Seen at The Great One's Performance, even if the patron was not actually interested in Theatre. I don't recall the source of this, but it will probably be in my notes from the Plays and Playhouses unit of my English lit. course about 10 years ago. If I can find the references for you I'll be sure to post. Aramanth >From the portals of House Le Mowbus, Where someone was perceptive enough to name our daughters for Goddesses of War, and silly enough to be surprised when they lived up to it! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 10:23:43 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Heralds Thanks to all, who responded to my "heralds" and "Conflicting info" posts. Boy, was I way off as to what an Elizabethan herald looked like. Many thanks to Judy on the list, who send me photocopies of heralds. So now I am back at the drawing board, designing another costume...at least it is correct now. Later, Penny Penny E. Dunlap-Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University (& finally graduating in May) s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 10:23:51 -0500 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: camlets >One of the European authors (I'm paraphrasing) states that the fabric produced >in Ankara, esp. the "watered" mohair, and the garments made from it are so >exquisite, that European garments in comparison "are but rags". Cool! Maybe I'll have to get into fiber arts now ... not another costume-related hobby! I am currently waiting for a friend's Agora does to kid so I can have some to live at my house...and some shetland sheep too :-) But I just had to have Agoras (word derived from "Ankara").. since I raise Anatolian Shepherd Dogs -- Choban Kopegi/Kangal Kopegi from Turkey. The Angora sheep are really cute. They have smooth faces and curly bangs which can grow to hide their eyes. Overall they are a smaller goat, usually about 24" or so at the shoulder and somewhat delicate. Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 10:24:02 -0500 From: James & Bob Subject: Re: Dress Affecting Dance Frances Grimble wrote: > Anyway, it is not necessarily correct to assume that, even when the > clothes of a period are well suited to the dance, there is a direct > influence. It's not like people said, "We've got loose dresses so let's > invent the Charleston," or "We'll change the entire clothing silhouette > just so we can do this dance." I have film shorts of cakewalks > from 1901-1903 (they have copyright dates) that show steps later used in > the Charleston as well as other quite vigorous movements. Sorry, Fran, I disagree. Dance, social customs and costume as you know are all interdependent. Ragtime dances, for instance had a definite impact on the abandonment of inflexible corsetry. Costuming and corsetry, as well as cultural ideas of what movements are aesthetically pleasing determine the parameters of dance movements. There was no cakewalk done SOCIALLY at the turn of the century that even begins to approach the gyrations of the the Charleston. A dance like the Charleston could not enter the social dance repertoire until skirts were short enough to make it possible. Of course, that was only one factor; it took social changes to make it ACCEPTABLE. Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 10:24:33 -0500 From: Rebecca Handcock Subject: Hot weather fabric >Other than that avoid wool, silk, or really hihg content poly (the Wool >Board here in Aus claims that they have beautiful summer weight wools - >one day I'll feel brave enough to risk it) I saw some of the beautiful evening wear weight wools in a fashion show for the Australian Wool Board. I have a thin wool 'fashion' kilt and a double layer wool scarf. They are woven fabrics and quite thin, and I have worn them in both the humid Toronto summer, and the dry Australian heat of home. Personally I think it is a matter of whether the nap is scratchy or not ... Rebecca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rebecca Handcock ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ handcock@geog.utoronto.ca GIS Labs, Department of Geography, University of Toronto ~~~~~~~~~ http://eratos.erin.utoronto.ca/handcock/bechome.html ~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 10:24:50 -0500 From: "Sara J. Davitt" Subject: Re: Warm weather fabrics > Style is often more helpful than fabric - anything that allows your > armpits to breathe is good - so a style with tie on or detached sleeves > works. How about taking it to the n'th degree, and make your tunics without the 'gussets' and the holes in the armpits?.. it's period, and serves as vents! Also on some of the childrens pictures, I see the boys in hose, and then the tunic is split up to the waist, held mid-thigh by a band of fabric... surely enough draft there... Also in another picture, there were the women and men in white catching a falling baby in a courtyard... they were 15th cent, and full regalia, but the lacing sides, was looser, and there was a back yolk, and gathered skirt was looser (belted in, but it started mid back, allowing breathability) Anyway, good luck! Sarahj ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 10:51:15 -0500 From: suzanne hader Subject: Re: POSTINGS On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, James & Bob wrote: > Dear Suzanne- > So sorry to bother you, but many recipients of the h-costume group have > made comments off-group about speed of posting. Sometimes it seems that > messages of ours post quickly, sometimes days afte a topic is long dead, > even though we reply right away. > > I have no idea how this process works. Do you have to personally review > and post each submission? (If that is the case, you must be a saint!) It > would be wonderful if you could take the time to explain to everyone > exactly what process goes on when a message is submitted. Yes, presently I do have to review and post each submission. I started doing this for two reasons: there was a flame war that became unnecessarily cruel and the amount list-noise (random advertisements and "get me off this list" messages) became difficult to stomache. There hasn't been such a flame war problem recently, although I have rejected about 10-15 posts in the last 3 months on the basis that they were merely a string of insults and contained no useful information. The random noise problem has persisted however. I usually filter out about 2-3 advertisements per week and 5-10 "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" messages. (When I say "advertisements", I mean things like ads for computer accessories, wrinkle cream, etc.) Many "internet advertising" companies simply take the list of mailing lists that's publicly available and spam it whenever they get a client. So, the upshot of all that is, I am manually forwarding all posts to the list. HOWEVER, I check my email usually once or twice a day. I forward all the posts in the order that I receive them (which is what the listserv would do), and only rarely do I skip a day. (maybe this happens once a month.) If you are receiving posts that are truly *days* old -- like more than 2 -- then there's a problem with one of the machines involved. I will warn you that if your problems appear to be transient that often that indicates that your isp's host has gone down temporarily. The machine that the list is maintained from *rarely* becomes an issue because it handles quite a bit of administrative computing here at Brown. best, suzanne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 10:51:29 -0500 From: Gwyn Champlin Subject: Cotehardie Hello everyone, I bought an obscene amount of velvet several months ago and my husband wants to see me actually use it for something this century. I knew I wanted to make cotehardies, one quartered red and green and one solid green. I, however, have been dragging my feet because I can not make a few important decisions. I am hoping for some imput from all of you. I have several wool cotehardies which lace up. I feel this would be too informal for velvet, yes or no? I also have a velvet cotehardie with buttons from neckline to hem, which looks fantastic. Should I stay with this approach? Also, what are your feelings on long buttoned sleeves versus short sleeves with tippets and then interchangable underdresses of different fabrics? One last problem, on the quartered one I intended to applique my heraldry, would you suggest velvet or satin for the appliques? I appreciate any input anyone might have on this subject. Thank you for all your help. Gwyn Champlin (SCA: Affrica nic Pharlain) ac406@seorf.ohiou.edu -- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 17:22:34 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Referenced Illuustration about the use of linen, personal hygiene, etc. I've snipped out of several messages I've received both on the list and offlist: I would agree with Teresa ... > Why would you presume a "crisp" looking dress in an illumination wouldbe > linen? y and add ... what is the manuscript illumination you are talking about as, if you are correct, I'd be very interested. >>If you have A History of Private Life II, Revelations of the Medieval World, that picture is in the center with the other color plates.> > The subject illustration in "A History of Private Life Revelations of the Medieval World" could be either a 15th century painting Titled "Le Livre de la Cite des Dames" on what would be page 263, or an (Illustration?) on the following page. Its been awhile since I read this book, and I've not returned yet to the text to find the reference to these paintings. By refering to "it" as an illustration, I will assume until told otherwise that that (Nancee?) was writing about the latter, as its subtitle leads one to believe it was an illustration from an book named "Les Evangdes quenouilles" (also 15th). At any rate, the picture is of a collection of women spinning. They appear to all be dressed in white. (Interesting 'belts' on a few of them) I understand why the drape of the clothing might be interpreted as being crisp, though it could be just the style of the artist?? The former picture looks like an painting of an imagined city of women. My french is poor at best, but roughly translated I think it might mean 'a glance at' or 'a testamonial of' the lives of women. The scene is of 15+ women appearing to present themselves to a collection of (judges?) in the middle of an extremely forshortened castle courtyard. All the characters are female. The women appear to be lifting their skirts for inspection. The focus of interest appears to be the bottom of the outer skirt almost all of which are trimed with ermine. (At least it looks like white fur with black teardrops). There are two figures in the "front" who appear to be wearing brown furlined dresses (or overdresses). No sign of snow or other 'coldness', and they are sitting outside for goodness sakes. Well who knows, they are all dressed in white too, but does that indicate warmth? I'd like to thank Nancee for returning me to this book, and refocusing me on the Illustrations. I had studied the text for a better understanding of what life might have been like. I looked at the pictures but not closely, and now am taking great pleasure at a closer look of the illustrations for costuming purposes. I "missed" out on what a great source they were on the first read with regard to behaviour at the time. For those of you bantering about personal hygiene, this text has quite a lot to say about the fact that bathing might not have been as scarce as comonly thought. While I am babbling, there is a wonderful "close up" of two little boys on page page 260 attendng a weding?? The picture is from said to be from 1474, and the boys are said to be dressed in the family colours of the da Gonzaga family. They just might be dressed in crisp lightweight fabric too!! Looking forward to all comments, Saragrace T. Knauf ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 17:22:39 -0500 From: barbara shuwarger Subject: Re: 16th cent. personal hygiene Speaking of eyebrow tweezing, can anyone suggest a method for giving the look of the high forehead without plucking all one's hairline? What are the dates for this fashion? I see lots of it in 15th century art works. Barbara ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 17:23:05 -0500 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: Dress affecting Dance James & Bob wrote: >=20 > Dear Stacey, Fran et al; >=20 > Are you referring to the old waltz =E0 trois temps as opposed to the l= ate 19th c waltz =E0 deux > temps, or the late 19th c reversing waltz, two different things. Who w= as teaching, by the The discussion was comparing all three. Fran ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 17:23:24 -0500 From: Susan Carter Subject: Mohair article Well, someone must be living right because I just found the Mohair article on the top of a box I was unpacking. Gary Leiser. "Travellers' Accounts of Mohair Production in Ankara from the Fifteenth through the Nineteenth Century." The Textile Museum Journal 1993-94, vols 32 & 33. address - The Textile Museum 2320 S Street, NW Washington, DC 20008 Their collections focus primarily on Near Eastern, Asian, and African textiles. The article includes many wonderful quotes from travelers. One in particular might be interesting to the list. In 1555, a Fleming, Ogier Ghislain de Busbecq, traveled in the area as the ambassador of Ferdinand of Austria to the court of Suleyman the Magnificent. His observations are detailed - the long, silky, white hair which is combed instead of shorn from the goats which are washed frequently, and so on. As to the cloth, he comments on the 'watered' camlet : "The pieces which have received the marks of very broad 'waves' in continuos lines are considered the best and choicest. . . . The wearing of this cloth is a mark of distinction among the older Turks of high rank. Soliman himself does not like to be seen wearing any material but this, and prefers a green colour, which though to our ideas unsuited to a man of advanced years, is commended by their religion and the practice of Mahomet, their prophet, who even in old age habitually wore it." An interesting primary source comment - In the 16th century older, important Turks wore green but in Flanders and Austria this would be inappropriate. Any comments? Su Carter Williamsburg, VA sucarter@msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 17:24:00 -0500 From: "Kimberly R. Gilbert" Subject: Re: costume-related museum positions... I'd also be interested in hearing people's responses to this. Kimberly Gilbert "This is terrible news! Do you actually SCA: Anne Fenton intend to kill your enemies? Can't you kgilbert@bluemarble.net just speak sternly to them?" On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Kendra Van Cleave/SF wrote: > > Hello. I was wondering how many people on this list work in a > costume-related museum position -- and what exactly your job title > and duties are? (As you can guess, I'm hoping to enter this field, > and I want to get an idea of what's *really* out there). Also, if > you could mention what academic background you have (ie BA, MA -- if > so, in what field?) I'd really appreciate any replies, as it's been > hard for me to get an idea of the reality of this field. > > Please either reply to the list, or to me personally at > kendrav@bizwire.com. > > Thanks, > > Kendra Van Cleave > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 17:24:05 -0500 From: Paul Onufrak Subject: "S" sleeve heads and gathered necklines Hello again, Would someone clarify some more things for me, please? I clipped the quote, but really don't know who wrote it. (Sorry) "in response to the 'Beginner's comments' - certainly by the 1450's in England the sleeve heads must be S-shaped - the bodice and sleeve are closely fitted, there is no sign of dropped shoulders except in some of the men's outer garments (and there I'm doubtful) and there is no sign of the extra fabric under the arms which straight seams would involve." What are S shaped sleeve heads? And assuming they are basically the (arched)set-in sleeve of today, with seam lines at a different place is the armseye cut out in a similar way? How deep is the "S"? "As to smocks and shirts, please avoid drawstring necks, at least up to 1600 (and my friends who do 17th century say they haven't any evidence for drawstrings then either). The necks are either round or gathered to a band (which comes in in the 16th century). Fuller sleeves, gathered at the cuff also come in in the 16th century on shirts and smocks. I wondered, given the full sleeves, gathered to cuffs, in the 14th century on outer wear, whether there was any evidence of fuller sleeves on shirts and smocks then?" Next question. In "Historic Costume for the Stage," by Lucy Barton, there is a description of a shirred chemise necklines for men in the chapter covering 1450-1550, page 188. "After 1525 the shirt often rose higher above the low cut dublet, till it encircled the base of the throat, with the heading forming a tiny frill. There was a slit down the base of the shirt to admit the head, and cords to hold it together at the neck." Is this correct? Why are smocking and shirring/gathering correct for the period, but drawstrings are not? Isn't a drawstring simpler? In most things simpler preceedes fussier. I am not trying to start an argument, merely to understand. How did the gathered neckline evolve? Thank you again. DJ on her husband's account ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 17:24:10 -0500 From: Scott Guthery Subject: 1950's V-Neck Sweaters Does anybody have for sale 50's V-neck male sweaters. I'm particularly interested in purchasing something in a powder blue, medium 38-42. Thanks, Scott ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 17:24:13 -0500 From: Lena Meyer Subject: Harpers Bazar I am selling eleven (11) Harpers Bazar weekly papers dated 1893. Here are the following dates: Feb 11, 1893 Feb 25, 1893 March 4, 1893 March 25, 1893 April 15, 1893 April 22, 1893 May 20, 1893 June 3, 1893 Sept 23, 1893 October 21, 1893 December 2, 1893 Includes critics of New York and Paris fashions of the time, illustrations of fashions, recipes, fiction writing, some embrodiery patterns, some Worth gowns on covers, 24 pages in each issue. Each are folded in half, and are ledger size. Fair condition, some rough edges of paper. Looking for $25.00 each or $225.00 for all eleven. Buyer pays postage. For more info email privately premier@bright.net. Lena ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 17:24:24 -0500 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Hot weather fabric >Other than that avoid wool, silk, or really hihg content poly (the Wool >Board here in Aus claims that they have beautiful summer weight wools - >one day I'll feel brave enough to risk it) I personally love a lightweight wool when it is warm. Wool does come in many many weights. I have used felted wool, wool velvet, wool gauze, and have drooled over a fine wool sari with a powdered floral that would have made a wonderful regency (but I don't do that period:-). I have worn wool many times in over 100 degree weather on many occasions. It really does breath quite well. Especially comfortable when worn with a linen undershift. Linen beats cotton for wicking away sweat any day! One of the things that helps on warm days is to keep ones wrists and even head damp. If you wet the cuffs of your shirt and wear a damp turban of cloth on your head, you will be much cooler. I use a rolled white or white with woven stripes cloth turban for German Ren. (and is also appropriate for 16th c. Irish and Italian as well.) I use a longer gauze turban for Turkish costume. I've noticed a great deal of difference in coolness when I girdle my German Renn. dresses up. This is done with another belt or cord tied just below the waist and the dress is puffed and pulled up evenly all around the waist so that the hem comes somewhere between calf and ankle. I have seen examples of English peasants and also Italians doing it the same way. (BTW, I have never seen a 16th c. example of the hem of the overskirt pulled up in one or two places and tucked into a belt as is so often done.) Anyway, it allows air to come up under the skirt and has a cooling factor. If the evening gets cooler, the skirt can be let down to floor length to seal in warmth. Another reason I like early 16th c Germans is the HATS! They work wonderfully well to protect the head from the hot sun. A cotton velvet one can be dampened as well to provide wicking.. but one must be careful with moisture if it is fully feathered. Most middle eastern costumes can be correctly made shorter that floor length, as can 16th c. lower class garments and irish gowns. While Persian or Arabian costumes are most commonly seen with many layers, Palestinian and Turkish costumes do not. One of my favorite books for early Turkish dress is "Women's Costume of the Near and Middle East" by Jennifer Scarce, Unwin Hyman Ltd., London/Sydney British ISBN 0-04-391011-4 A 16th c. Turkish Women's costume might consist of a gomlek (linen shirt, which can be hip to calf length and can have tulip sleeves or straight, often embroidered at the hem and cuffs), salvar (loose Trousers that narrow at the ankle), and anteri (an overgarment like a jacket). The anteri can be a short loose jacket with short sleeves, almost like a vest. It can also be like a full robe. These can be layered. - Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 17:40:40 -0500 From: Aramanth Dawe Subject: Re: Warm weather fabrics At 11:56 AM 7/03/97 -0500, you wrote: > Middle eastern is >all layers upon layers if you want to really do it right. That much >silk is expensive and I am not yet convinced that it breaths well >enough to justify wearing it out to a site that is a dust bowl. > >I understand that this may not be enough information for some of you >hard core authenticity types but we want to look the part without >dying in the heat of Texas summers. > >Ciao >Ches > Australian summers can be pretty horrendous too. I have found that Middle Eastern done in layers of fine cottons work very well indeed, both for breathability and effect. I certainly could not afford silk for such things. Simpler versions (little more than gauzy trousers and a couple of tunics) work well for my small children (2 and almost 1 year). BTW, I often found that several layers of light fabric made me feel cooler - just as layering will keep out cool air in winter it seems to keep out warmer air in summer. Aramanth >From the portals of House Le Mowbus, Where someone was perceptive enough to name our daughters for Goddesses of War, and silly enough to be surprised when they lived up to it! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:14:35 -0500 From: "Sara J. Davitt" Subject: Warm weather fabric/styles (listserv told me to re-send, forgive any spam.. thanks!) > Style is often more helpful than fabric - anything that allows your > armpits to breathe is good - so a style with tie on or detached sleeves > works. How about taking it to the n'th degree, and make your tunics without the 'gussets' and the holes in the armpits?.. it's period, and serves as vents! Also on some of the childrens pictures, I see the boys in hose, and then the tunic is split up to the waist, held mid-thigh by a band of fabric... surely enough draft there... Also in another picture, there were the women and men in white catching a falling baby in a courtyard... they were 15th cent, and full regalia, but the lacing sides, was looser, and there was a back yolk, and gathered skirt was looser (belted in, but it started mid back, allowing breathability) Anyway, good luck! Sarahj ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 7 Mar 1997 to 8 Mar 1997 ************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Mar 13 09:52:44 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA09204 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 10 Mar 1997 06:22:06 +0100 Message-Id: <199703100522.AA09204@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <1.D1B2024D@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 6:21:57 +0100 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 00:01:28 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 8 Mar 1997 to 9 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 10 messages totalling 285 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Cotehardie 2. HISTORIC THEATRE COSTUMES 3. 16th cent. personal hygiene 4. Jefferson In Paris 5. Fustian 6. Wool Satin 7. Blackwork in Spain Question 8. Hot weather fabric 9. The British Monarchy 10. lapel notches ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 12:54:33 -0500 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Cotehardie Gwyn Champlin wrote: > One last problem, on the quartered one I intended to > applique my heraldry, would you suggest velvet or satin for the appliques? > I don't know how everyone else feels but I would stay away from trying to applique velvet on velvet. I find velvet hard enough to sew together without adding complications. But as to the fabric to use I'd say anything that looks good and is the right color. One of the popular things to do with heraldic applique out here (in Caid) right now is to use a brocade for that "diapered" effect you frequently see in manuscript illumination. It's truly stunning when done right. And I'd also suggest using Wonder Under to hold your design in place, and top stitching with a zigzag stitch first before machine satin stiching it down. The wonder under will hold it in place for the zigzag, and the zigzag will hold it in place for the applique stitching. Carolyn (Tetchubah in the SCA) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 12:54:36 -0500 From: James & Bob Subject: Re: HISTORIC THEATRE COSTUMES Aramanth Dawe wrote: > I recall reading some years ago that well into the 18th century Theatre > productions usually did not have consistant costuming. Whilst minor cast > members could be compelled by management to wear appropriate costumes, many > of the Principal Actors and Actresses refused to do so. They provided their > own clothing to enhance what they believed to be their best features, and to > H*** with any other considerations. Many of them were Names, and patrons > would flock to the theatres to be Seen at The Great One's Performance, even > if the patron was not actually interested in Theatre. Dar Aramanth - Yes, all of that is true, you remembered well! But . . . The stage costumes in "Jefferson" were from a period not a "bit old fashioned" but 100 years earlier! Furthermore, the "costume" that the solo singer wore was not anything that would have been used as an opera costume at all, in any period. Finally the dance costumes were also of a period about 75 years earlier, as were the dances themselves. The costumes for the rest of the movie, however, were socko! Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 12:54:38 -0500 From: James & Bob Subject: Re: 16th cent. personal hygiene barbara shuwarger wrote: > > Speaking of eyebrow tweezing, can anyone suggest a method for giving > the look of the high forehead without plucking all one's hairline? What > are the dates for this fashion? I see lots of it in 15th century art > works. Hi Barbara! Bravo! I'm so glad you're going all the way and examining 15th c cosmetic aesthetics too. Yes, the big, egg shaped face with high forehead as ideal lasted well into the 16th century. Lips and eyes should form a perfect triangle, and mouth itself should be tiny. There is some evidence that women used eggwash to lighten their complexions in the 15th century. Try soaping over your own hairline, and blending the whole face with a very pale base makeup. Eyebrows, too should be minimal. I've yet to find a decent history of makeup and facial aesthetics. Anyone? Bob Skiba at The Academy of Ancient Cosmetology ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 12:54:51 -0500 From: Jan Dockery Subject: Jefferson In Paris I saw the movie ages ago and cannot remember the Ballroom scene specificially...so this comment will apply to films in general: Sometimes the production designer will specify a certain "look" to be portrayed in certain scenes. It may not be historically correct, but the costumer will have to adhere to it if the request comes from the production designer, director, or producer, as all of these 'heads of state' have authority over the costumer. Example: If the PD has designed a set with creame coloured monotone dressings, the costumer may be asked to create monotone costumes all in the same soft pastel color to deliberately coordinate with the set dressings----totally ignoring any historical relevance to the costumes of the time period, the nature of the character's personalities, or their positions in society, etc. jan d costumes@dnet.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 12:55:20 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: Fustian We've had threads on linen and on cotton, so I thought you might be interested. Looking for another reference, I came across this in von Boehn, Max. _MODES AND MANNERS_, translated by Joan Joshua. Benjamin Blom, New York, ?, vol. I. >The materials worn by ladies and gentlemen were identical. German linen was greatly prized; from the twelfth century it became an industrial product, for requirements could no longer be met by the weaving of home workers. Cotton fabrics were imported from the East via Venice, or from the Moorish factories in Spain via Barcelona. Fustian, a fabric with a linen warp and a cotton woof, became known in Germany at the beginning of the thirteenth century, and was also, apparently, manufactured at Ulm.> He also has some general dates for silk manufacture and importation. This book has some good information, and as it is an old one, I seldom see it in libraries. I don't own a copy, just some zeroxed. although I do watch for it at used book sales. Allison ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 12:55:25 -0500 From: Meaghan Waters Subject: Wool Satin Hi Just wanted to know if anyone had made anything out of wool satin or has references for this being used in C15th Northern Europe. I once was able to afford a small piece of this (remnant at Liberty only AUD$70/m) and it was the most gorgeous fabric I have ever seen with a beautiful drape and a seductive sheen. Logic would say that it would have been used in this time and place (both satin weave and wool being very prevalent) however our logic can be so different from other peoples. So if anyone has anything definite could they let me know in case I win lottery and am able to afford 10 metres. Thanks in advance Meaghan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 12:55:28 -0500 From: Julie Adams Subject: Blackwork in Spain Question >What I am curious about is evidence for blackwork in Spain >at >about that time or earlier. The small black and white pictures in Milia >Davenport's book >are just too small for me to make out any embroidery. Does anyone know of >any paintings I should try to find copies of for documenting blackwork in >Spain? Are there any good sources for illustrations of people wearing >blackwork in Spain in the late 1400's or early 1500's? Yes, there are numerous clear examples. See "Hispanic Costume 1480-1530" by Ruth Matilda Anderson, published by the Order of the Trustees of the Hispanic Society of America, 1979 This used to be available through Hedgehog Handiworks. But you can also find elaborate and complex blackwork in German art by Albrecht Durer, Lucas Cranach, and others that also predates the English blackwork. An interesting side is that Henry imported many German armorers, glassworkers and cloth processors during his reign, so they could well have had a hand in establishing its popularity as well.\ Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 12:55:31 -0500 From: "Diana H." Subject: Re: Hot weather fabric Julie Adams wrote: > I have worn wool many times in over 100 degree weather on many occasions. > It really does breath quite well. I have tried to wear wool (German Renn, in fact) and could not wear it in California between April & October. You must have a normally low body temperature to achieve this feat! Besides, I don't think advising a new costumer to make hot weather garb in wool is such a good idea. Let them get vain enough to wear it, first (and suffer the consequences)! > Especially comfortable when worn with a > linen undershift. Linen beats cotton for wicking away sweat any day! This is absolutely true! Linen has a wonderful wicking action that takes the sweat away from your body and lets it evaporate. Great summer stuff! > I've noticed a great deal of difference in coolness when I girdle my German > Renn. dresses up. This is done with another belt or cord tied just below > the waist and the dress is puffed and pulled up evenly all around the waist > so that the hem comes somewhere between calf and ankle. I have seen > examples of English peasants and also Italians doing it the same way. Yes! Cotehardies are especially good for this. And technically, if you don't pull them too high off the ground, it's ok if you don't wear an underdress. (BTW, > I have never seen a 16th c. example of the hem of the overskirt pulled up > in one or two places and tucked into a belt as is so often done.) I have seen examples of this being done in the 15th century (at least 3 that I can site). I would suppose that there aren't many examples from the 16th century due to the shift in subject matter for the artists. As I look through my books, I find only portraits and biblical paintings frojm 1500-1600. But as I recall, the idea behind pulling up the overskirt was to prevent it from getting dirty while working in the fields or walking through the streets (we won't even discuss how sewage was treated). The underdress was easier to wash and was therefore left unkirtled for modesty. I can't imagine that the lower classes would reject this practice into the 16th c. It is assumption on my part, but I can't think of any good reason why they WOULDN'T have done it. Anyway, > it allows air to come up under the skirt and has a cooling factor. If the > evening gets cooler, the skirt can be let down to floor length to seal in > warmth. Definitely! It is surprising how much heat you can trap underneath a woman's skirt (stop sniggering, boys). Good luck and enjoy all of the wonderful suggestions! Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 12:55:42 -0500 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: The British Monarchy I read in the London Telegraph (web site) about a new web site put up by the Queen - and then spent several days trying to reach it. It is so busy that it is really hard, but Ifinally got through. Unfortunately I did not get any further because it is so busy... but it is suppose to have 150 pages and I am sure some of it will be of costume interest as they have a section called "The Royal Collections". The URL is http://www.royal.gov.uk ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 12:55:56 -0500 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: lapel notches I hope that I can get some help on a terminology question from the group. I am doing a statistical study of men's clothing (1860-1870) using CdVs as my data source. I have seen the notches on the lapels of men's coats refereed to as "M" and "V" notches. I am looking for a good description of each so that I can correctly classify them in my survey. Thanks, Bill Christen -- gwjchris@rust.net Visit The Curiosity Shop! http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/ ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 8 Mar 1997 to 9 Mar 1997 ************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Mar 13 09:52:45 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA17119 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 11 Mar 1997 06:23:54 +0100 Message-Id: <199703110523.AA17119@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <10.3C80406B@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 6:23:45 +0100 Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 00:03:20 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 9 Mar 1997 to 10 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 17 messages totalling 700 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 16th cent. personal hygiene 2. lapel notches 3. Cotehardie (4) 4. Hot weather fabric 5. source for tabi? 6. Lettuce Cap 7. VArious (again) 8. Handsewn Seams 9. Comfort and Clothing 10. Medieval textile cleaning 11. 40's Swing and Lindy Hop 12. satin weave? 13. Royal Costumes 14. Tudor & Elizabethan Coifs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:14:55 -0500 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Re: 16th cent. personal hygiene > I've yet to find a decent history of makeup and facial aesthetics. Anyone? Well, the largest seems to be Richard Corson's _Fashions in Makeup from Ancient to Modern Times_. 614 pages, covers "ancient civilizations" through the 1960s. My edition was published by Peter Owen of London. Fran Grimble http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:14:58 -0500 From: Michael N Morell Subject: Re: lapel notches Dear Bill, In response to your request for information on lapel notches, the V notch is what is used today on lapels on most men's coats, (sometimes the lapels of tuxedo jackets have a notch but traditionally have a shawl collar and lapels). The M notch is an earlier style and usually is not found much after the 1830's except in formal attire, (the white tie and tails suit). Chances are if you are limiting your study to the 1860's and 70's you won't find many pictures showing the M notch in lapels. You will rather find the V notch and the shawl collar. The V notch came about as a result of the turning back of the front of the jackets and short coats worn by the laboring class of the mid 19th century which were originally designed to be buttoned to the neck. As the sack coat became more acceptable for day wear rather than casual and sporting wear the front lapel was made to permanently fold back and the collar shortened and turned down to match. The buttonhole at the top of the lapel on a modern suit coat is still kept although no longer functional. The notch resulted from when the front had to overlap to allow the base of the collar to meet in front. The M notch first appears between about 1805 and 1810 with the advent of the cut away coat with tails. It literally has a small v at the base of the collar where it joins the lapel which forms an M shape if one follows the front point of the lapel to the front point of the collar. This style still appeared in formal tail coats and in the coats worn by older men but it was rare by the 1860's. Having said all of this I will probably be proven wrong by about half a dozen people within the next two weeks. It is through this process however that we learn and the the rest of the world benefits from our research. I hope that the discussions, debates and arguments continue; politely of course. There is no such thing as a stupid question or a stupid answer, there are only stupid comments by the egotistical. Mike Morell Remember: "WHEN WE STUDY THE ANCIENTS WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND THAT THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE MODERN" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:15:12 -0500 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: Cotehardie At 12:54 PM 3/9/97 -0500, you wrote: >Gwyn Champlin wrote: >> One last problem, on the quartered one I intended to >> applique my heraldry, would you suggest velvet or satin for the appliques? >> > >I don't know how everyone else feels but I would stay away from trying >to applique velvet on velvet. (SNIP). And I'd >also suggest using Wonder Under to hold your design in place, and top >stitching with a zigzag stitch first before machine satin stiching it >down. The wonder under will hold it in place for the zigzag, and the >zigzag will hold it in place for the applique stitching. > Wonder Under is great for fabrics that are fairly stiff, such as Trigger, which makes such good fighter's surcoats, but I find it gives a "laminated" apearance which doesn't work with drapier fabrics. For those, I would suggest using "Fuse-it", a product that looks like a liquid glue. You apply it to just the edges of your applique, let it dry (or not), and iron it on. You can stitch through it with no problem, and retain the drape of your original fabric. Of course, if you're using velvet, any kind of fusible is out. You would probably end up having to hand-baste the whole thing, in which case you might as well go ahead and hand applique it. I would also stay away from satin, one ravelly fabric is bad enough, but if you do use satin for this period, a "matte" satin will look better than the very shiny bridal satin that's popular today. If yo really want to incorporate your heraldry into this costume, how about using the velvet for a cotehardie, and making an appliqued surcoat or cloak in another fabric, to wear with it? Margo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:15:15 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Re: Cotehardie In a message dated 97-03-09 12:55:09 EST, you write: << I would stay away from trying to applique velvet on velvet. >> If you back the velvet with iron on interfacing you should no problem at all using it for your applique. Lord Ras ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:15:28 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: Hot weather fabric In a message dated 97-03-09 12:56:14 EST, dch@inreach.com (Diana H.) writes: > > > I have worn wool many times in over 100 degree weather on many occasions. > > It really does breath quite well. > > I have tried to wear wool (German Renn, in fact) and could not wear it in > California > between April & October. You must have a normally low body temperature to > achieve this Actually, Julie's body temp is probably as normal as anyone's. The Germans (and Irish, and others) at Southern Faire (California) habitually wear wool or brushed denim as their outer garments without faiting in weather that frequently hits 90-100. But that's a working faire day, not gracefully idling about the edge of the eric, or even attending the same faire as a participant. My theory is that having something to do all day in general keeps you from noticing how hot or dusty it is. The wool does breathe better than a lot of blends or synthatics that seem lighter. The fighers on the field are not only in wool but in breastplates and helms and so on, and they usually come marching home tired and hungry but under their own power, too. Pacing and lots of water make the difference. Perhaps we shouldn't tell a newcomer to go ahead with the wool, unless someone more accustomed to using and wearing it in all weathers is there to tell her when to go ahead and take the sleeves off. Sleeves, by the way, can make all the difference on an intolerable day. But what we call "intolerable" at home, may be higher temps than elsewhere. We know it's going to be bad when the Hauptmann calls for no sleeves at 8am, two hours before the front gate opens! Maggie Mairghread-Ros FitzGarret of Desmond, O.L. (Caid) Mary Countess of Southampton Mary Gage, tapster ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:16:34 -0500 From: Thea Goldsby Subject: source for tabi? A friend of mine is looking for a good source for tabi socks (Japanese, big toe separated). He would like dark blue or black, and wears a U.S. size 11 (male). Any suggestions? Thea Goldsby TheaG@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:16:37 -0500 From: David Key Subject: Re: Lettuce Cap *** CORRECTION *** At the end of last week I tried to recall exactly what animal Lettuce/Lettice etc. came from ... well I remembered wrong and as no-body has corrected me yet I'd better do it myself. Lettuce is the fur of the snow weasel, apparantly more expensive than miniver but cheaper than Ermine The source for this is E. Veale, The English Fur Trade in the Later Middle Ages (Oxford, 1966) which contains more than you are ever likely to want to know about the different types of fur! Sorry for the mistake. Cheers Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:16:41 -0500 From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: VArious (again) DJ had some questions on some of my comments. >Would someone clarify some more things for me, please? I clipped the quote, >but really don't know who wrote it. (Sorry) It was me (Caroline) >"in response to the 'Beginner's comments' - certainly by the 1450's >in England the sleeve heads must be S-shaped - the bodice and sleeve >are closely fitted, there is no sign of dropped shoulders except in >some of the men's outer garments (and there I'm doubtful) and there >is no sign of the extra fabric under the arms which straight seams >would involve." >What are S shaped sleeve heads? And assuming they are basically the >(arched)set-in sleeve of today, with seam lines at a different place >is the armseye cut out in a similar way? How deep is the "S"? Yes, they are basically the same shape, with the seam at centre back of the arm instead of under the arm. The armseye is cut a similar way - according to the type of garment (as it varies today). The 'S' varies according to the depth of the armseye and the tightness of the garment. >"As to smocks and shirts, please avoid drawstring necks, at least up to 1600 >(and my friends who do 17th century say they haven't any evidence for >drawstrings then either). The necks are either round or gathered to a band >(which comes in in the 16th century). Fuller sleeves, gathered at the cuff >also come in in the 16th century on shirts and smocks. >Next question. >In "Historic Costume for the Stage," by Lucy Barton, I don't know this particular book but, apart from Hunnisett (and sometimes her too), I am always very cautious about anything 'for the stage' - the stage demands tend to be dominant over accuracy. Looking at the pictures is the best way to find out (taking into account religious/symbolic/royal peculiarity) >there is a description >of a shirred chemise necklines for men in the chapter covering 1450-1550, >page 188. "After 1525 the shirt often rose higher above the low cut dublet, >till it encircled the base of the throat, with the heading forming a tiny >frill. There was a slit down the base of the shirt to admit the head, and >cords to hold it together at the neck." Is this correct? Well, if shirring means gathering and you also insert 'collar' bands (one outside, one inside about 1 inch wide excluding seam allowance) to which the full material of the shirt is gathered, then yes. I often do the 'frill' as a separate piece of gathered material inserted between the collar bands - it cuts out some of the bulk and looks better - plus, looking a little later this turns into the ruff, which was constructed separately. >Why are smocking and shirring/gathering correct for the period, but >drawstrings are not? I think you have to be careful about the term 'smocking' in this period. Some of the German pictures (Durer) do show very deep, even gathering at the neck of shirts in the 1520s or so - there is much less in England. Some people on this list have mentioned decorative stitches on top of this gathering - I've never personally seen it, certainly not in England. There is also gathering or pleating on other garment - men's sleeves, men's gowns and possibly women's gowns as well. Drawstrings are very rare - sometimes on pouches and bags, but even then there are other methods of fastening. I don't know why, but they seem to have chosen sewn in pleats or gathers rather than drawstrings. >Isn't a drawstring simpler? Well, no, I don't think so. In making I've always had terrible problems getting the drawstring down the channel, and when wearing the string tends to disappear back up the channel if I'm careless - the bow comes undone and so am I! I also think sewn pleats/gathers look better. It's a personal opinion, but I don't like them. >I am not trying to start an argument, merely to understand. How did the >gathered neckline evolve? Of course, that's why we're all here! As to how the gathered neckline evolved, again I don't know - presumably shirts were getting bigger and they had to come up with some means of dealing with the volume of fabric. Couple of other comments: Someone asked where I got Margaret Scott's 'A Visual History of 14th and 15th century Costume' - sorry, I just ordered it from the library. It's at home, but if you want the ISBN etc, let me know. The origins of English Blackwork - the honest answer seems to be no-one knows for sure. One of the areas that puzzles me is the quantity of embroidery that was being done in England (and probably elsewhere) for the church which has not survived, tho some of the German whitework has survived. There was a lot of embroidery and other decoration of quite functional fabrics, towels, clothes for draping statues etc, which turn up in will, inventories and the church warden accounts, which are described as 'worked'. As far as I know, none of this late 15th and early 16th English work has survived (*please* tell me if you know of any!). It is a possibility that this skill turned to domestic work during the upheaval, and rejection of iconography, at the Reformation. If it was similar to the surviving German whitework, that would explain the counted thread/geometric aspect of blackwork. I would be puzzled if German immigrants brought in blackwork, as I understood they were legally confined to a certain area of London so interaction with the English would have been restricted. There is not much blackwork (from memory) in the Holbein pictures of German merchants from his first visit in the 1520s. BTW - is there only one book on Spanish costume? The one by Ruth Matilda Anderson is the one that is always quoted! It would seem useful for those people seeking information about hot weather wear. What were the Spanish wearing in this period, since that's the hottest climate in Western Europe? Having been to El Escorial in August, thats as hot as I want to be! I shall always remember a journey in an unair-conditioned train across that plain ... Apart from wearing natural fibres (especially linen next to the skin) - another way of coping with extreme heat is to change your behaviour, not expect to behave the same way. Stay in the shade, if you must be active, don't do it in full sun, drink plenty of liquids (and some salt) and remember alcohol is a diuretic. Fashionable people avoided the sun as much as possible, people with pretentions imitated them and working people got hot! Someome referred to an illustration of Livre de Citie des Dames, which is probably an illustration of Christine de Pisa's work (sp), which is, unfortunately, an allegory. Saints, royalty and allegorical figures are always ones to be cautious of when looking at pictures - they are not necessarily wearing what normal people wore. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:16:49 -0500 From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Cotehardie > Hello everyone, > > I bought an obscene amount of velvet several months ago and my husband > wants to see me actually use it for something this century. I knew I > wanted to make cotehardies, one quartered red and green and one solid > green. I, however, have been dragging my feet because I can not make a > few important decisions. I am hoping for some imput from all of you. > > I have several wool cotehardies which lace up. I feel this would be too > informal for velvet, yes or no? I also have a velvet cotehardie with > buttons from neckline to hem, which looks fantastic. Should I stay with > this approach? Also, what are your feelings on long buttoned sleeves > versus short sleeves with tippets and then interchangable underdresses of > different fabrics? One last problem, on the quartered one I intended to > applique my heraldry, would you suggest velvet or satin for the appliques? You do not specify what country or part of what century this is for. If it is for the fourteenth in England, especially the first 80 years or so I would advise using the velvet for bed hangings and sheets and cloths as the first import of velvet into England and most subsequent uses of it for that century were for bed hangings. I see them listed in wills, seizure inventories and the Great Wardrobe accounts for that primarily, until after Richard IIs reign. >From a purely practical standpoint velvet or satin for appliques sound challenging and incredibly unfriendly to say the least. Have you considered a nice brocade with a mixed warp and weft, say silk/cotton, silk/linen perhaps some silk/wool non-brocade, heck if we aren't talking medieval fabrics rayons, wools and cotton just sound that they would sew better and be more stabilized. Wait, what about felt for the applique with embroidery to hold it down, this was not an unusual techinique with some of the surviving heralds tabbards (Neubauer), unless you don't want that three dimensional look. If you wouldn't mind a little advice, I wouldn't put the heraldry on the cotehardie at all. If you must have a "heraldic" outfit, why don't you consider an overgarment, sleeveless or no like a surcote you can slip over the cotehardie for tournaments and the like, after the fashion of the paynim, where we got surcotes from anyway according to some theories. (Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince, Boucher, etc.) That way you can work in more manageable fabrics or even paint it. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:16:53 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Handsewn Seams >Most modern hand sewing may be > clunky', because the people doing it have very little practice; there is >no reason to assume that was the case in the past, or even today amongst >those who do a lot of hand sewing. This is so very true. When examining period garments, especially nineteenth century ones, when the accomplishment of the finest handwork was the mark of a true lady (at least here in the southern US), I can always tell even before I look inside whether the mid-century garment I am about to examine was handsewn or not. I turn the gown over and look at the curved back seams of the bodice from the outside. The handsewn ones almost always, with very rare exceptions, have stitches much finer and closer together than the machine sewn ones and the stitching often looks as if it were done by mice. There are always exceptions, of course, but I have been constantly amazed, even on homespun cotton work gowns, at the tiny, fine stitching. Then when I look inside at the actual stitches, it always makes me depressed, because I always get to thinking my own stitches were tiny enough until I go back and take a look at another mid-19th c. handsewn garment! I am talking twenty and more stitches to the inch, and they are often so fine that you need a magnifier to truly see each individual stitch. At this point I am tempted to compare it to weaving the seams together instead of joining them, especially in the case of abutted-edge (selvedge) joining. You can often hardly see where the seamline is. Now, the question is, what kind of patience and/or driving obsession is necessary to produce such minuscule stitching??!! Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." --William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:16:56 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Comfort and Clothing Ches wrote: >What in your experience has been the best fabrics to use period and >non period to survive 100+ degree weather with high humidity? Dave wrote: >But not subjective "they must have worn it because it is too hot in >California in 1997". It is surprising how fast you can get used to >multiple layers of woolen & linen cloth even in 30+ degree temps Caroline quoted, someone else wrote: >From personal experience I could tell > you that > horse hair would be rather dense for the job, and downright > uncomfortable. > If they did wear them in period they were far from comfortable in my > estimation. >Caroline wrote: >It wouldn't be the first time something done in period would be found >completely uncomfortable by today's standards. One of the reasons >horsehair is used in upholstery is because it *is* dense. I have found that lightweight 100% cotton batiste, which is similar to antique muslin, is an excellent fabric for summer petticoats, chemises, chemisettes, and camisoles (corset covers). It wicks moisture, it is relatively inexpensive (I carry it for about $4.75/yard, 45" wide)., and is of course easy to launder. I live in the hot, humid South, too, and often work outside, although I do not do SCA eras; I do think a few things are important to keep in mind for any era. The natural fibres in linen, cotton, silk, and even lightweight wool cannot be beat by any synthetic fabric, no matter how lightweight, for keeping your body cool in the summer heat (and warm in the winter, too, for that matter). It is so important to remember that you simply cannot judge what our ancestors wore and didn t wear because of how it feels to us even I can t, and I make it my business to try to re-create exactly what women wore from the skin out. For over a year and a half now, in order to learn more about the clothing that I make how it is worn, what is uncomfortable and impractical, etc., I have made a supreme effort to wear only eighteenth and nineteenth century clothing, and even go so far as to mimic many common period personal habits. --- and over and over I learn that there are so many myths that need to be struck down about historic clothing the fallacy of the discomfort of corsets, the weight of the clothing, etc. ---all I can say is that what I found almost unbearable to wear five years ago when I only did re-enacting for a couple days out of the month, even if it was a constant 24-hours during those couple or three days, I find not only livable and natural but even comfortable and most important, practical. Not only that, but I feel a lot more feminine and sexy hanging out laundry to dry on my backyard clothesline wearing no 20th c. underwear and three petticoats than I ever did wearing so-called "sexy" nylon underwear. I have learned that layering clothing is the best way to stay cool, as well as warm (thin layers for warm weather, thicker ones for cold). I have learned that a simple white linen cap can keep your head warm (which helps warm the rest of you) in a drafty 1870s house during the winter. I have learned that after five pregnancies and four children, by regularly wearing a sensible set of stays I not only do not sag anywhere but I don t have the back problems I used to anymore. (I think one of the best things about wearing stays is that they subtly remind you not to overeat.) We should try not to judge anything historically by our 20th century standards and what we know today is true, because those truths simply did not exist back then. The old Indian saying about not judging anyone without walking a mile in his moccasins certainly applies to the clothing of our ancestors. Lastly, I want to share that I have found that much of the clothing women wore everyday in the 19th c. to early 20th c. is some of the most comfortable clothing I have ever owned. So much so, that I don t intend to ever stop wearing it! Fashion be damned! Why change what worked, and still does? Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." --William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:17:00 -0500 From: Wendy Robertson & Tim Weitzel Subject: Medieval textile cleaning I am interested in whether soap was used to clean pre-sixteenth century (especially north European) textiles. I am interested both in cleaning garments and in the use of soap in textile manufacture/dyeing. I know soap did exist, but I am not sure how much it was used on fabric. I know they did clean fabric, but I'm not sure how much soap supplanted things like putrid urine, fullers earth, and soapwort. I recently read Ciba review no.56 (April 1947) on soap and it stated the following: The use of soap for cleaning fabrics was rare until the 16th century. Upper classes used mostly toilet soap and used soap for fine linens. In the 15th century, Castile supplied England with a kind of soap called Smigmates, which was specially intended for washing the Lord Prior of Durham's clothes. Soap was not much used in the textile industry until the 16th century, at which time soft soap was used particularly for preparation for dyeing. As far back as the 15th century, soap was used in degumming silk (boiled in a solution of white soap, mainly from Savona or Venice, and later from Marseilles). I would like to check these facts, either confirmation or refutation. The source is none too recent, and I thought there could easily be more information available now. Thank you for your assistance. Wendy Robertson wcrobert@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:17:06 -0500 From: Lisa Bauer Subject: 40's Swing and Lindy Hop I have recently taken up Swing and Lindy Hop dancing and want to get nicely costumed. Fortunately, there are dresses on the market now which will serve, but I want to do my hair too. It is almost waist length (6" above.) I want to roll the front up, but want to do something with the back so that I won't blind my partner with the long ends. I want to avoid wearing a snood. I also need to be able to do it myself. I would appreciate any assistance in this area. In addition, if there is anyone in the Southern California (LA) area who swing dances and would like company to the Derby and Ash Grove, I need dance buddies (male or female)! Best regards, Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:17:33 -0500 From: "Glickman, Bonnie" Subject: satin weave? Can anyone tell me the pattern for satin weave? I'd like to try it in several fibers, including wool. I assume its a longer coverage than a twill, where you go under one and over three. Will I need an 8-harness loom? Thanks. Bonnie G. B) ============================================================== ============================================================== Bonnie Glickman bglickman@monroecc.edu I'm not waiting Biology Dept. bonnieg@frontiernet.net until I'm old... Monroe Community College glickman@mccvm.is.monroecc.edu I'm wearing my Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2725 purple NOW!-bg ============================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:15:24 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: Re: Royal Costumes I got into the web site R.L. Shep recommended for the British Royal Web Site (sounds strange). It did take forever to get into it and the download time is about 20 minutes. I went to the Royal Collection section and never did find the collection images. Each section does take forever to download or upload. This method maybe quicker than the URL that was suggested... Royal Collection http://www.royal.gov.uk/collect/index.htm Some sections off of the Royal Collections were (but not recommended): Kensington Palace http://www.royal.gov.uk/palaces/kensingt.htm The Queen's Gallery (they keep referring to a section called the 1997 Queen's exhibition but I could never get in) http://www.royal.gov.uk/collect/exhib.htm Buckington Palace http://www.royal.gov.uk/palaces/bp.htm St. James Palace http://www.royal.gov.uk/palaces/stjamess.htm Later, Penny Penny E. Dunlap-Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University (& finally graduating in May) s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:15:07 -0500 From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: Re: Cotehardie On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, don and carolyn richardson wrote: > Gwyn Champlin wrote: > > One last problem, on the quartered one I intended to > > applique my heraldry, would you suggest velvet or satin for the appliques? > > > I don't know how everyone else feels but I would stay away from trying > to applique velvet on velvet. I find velvet hard enough to sew together > without adding complications. I've successfully appliqued velvet on velvet. It helps to have patience. It helps to carefully baste everything down--no shortcuts on this; the more thorough you are with the basting, the less creep you'll get with the applique. I've also managed to use wonder under to make this easier; I use a piece of scrap velvet as a needle board, put my applique piece face-down on top of that, then the fusible stuff, then the garment itself. I fuse the applique piece to the garment from the inside of the garment, without applying any pressure to teh iron to avoid crushing the pile. I suggest doing a test piece first! A period alternative to the satin-stitch edging on applique to consider: fuse your piece down with wonder under (I know, I know, THAT's not period--but in period a glue was used, and this is a modern equivalent that's a lot less messy and won't damage your fabric). Tack the edges down, if you wish, for additional security. Then take cord and lay it on the edge of the applique piece and whip-stitch it firmly in place, all the way around the perimeter of your piece. You have to work the ends of the cord in; the method you use depends on the thickness, the design, etc. But the final effect is quite beautiful. The technique was in use by the fourteenth century; I'd include my reference here, but can't for the life of me put my hands on the book (and I should by rights be working on a 40-page paper, anyway, instead of checking my e-mail, but I can try to find the book later if there's interest...) It's a fun technique, and quick, too. Astrida ***************************************************************************** Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:33:52 -0500 From: aleed Subject: Tudor & Elizabethan Coifs Lately, my curiosity has been seized by tudor and elizabethan coifs--their construction, look, etc. As the h-costume archives are unavailable, I thought I'd ask if anyone knows of good sources of information about the above. I've looked through Queen Liza's Wardrobe Unlocked, but haven't been able to find any other good sources, primary or secondary. Thanks, Drea ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 9 Mar 1997 to 10 Mar 1997 *************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Mar 13 09:52:46 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA24901 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 12 Mar 1997 06:24:28 +0100 Message-Id: <199703120524.AA24901@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <2.8020A832@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 6:24:27 +0100 Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 00:03:52 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 10 Mar 1997 to 11 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 21 messages totalling 550 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Cotehardie (2) 2. source for tabi? (4) 3. 16th cent. personal hygiene 4. Lettuce Cap 5. Tudor & Elizabethan Coifs 6. Velvet applique' 7. Warm weather fabrics 8. Country House Visiting 9. Painted Velvet 10. The New Look 11. VArious (again) 12. Fwd: Comfort and Clothing 13. More on personal habits 14. Velvet Applicae, Wool satin 15. Colour of the thread and that of the fabric 16. applique 17. non-survival of blackwork ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:47:21 -0500 From: LISTSERV@brownvm.brown.edu Subject: Re: Cotehardie I would be interested in a copy of that documentation or a book reference to go to for that. As it turns out I am working on a Heraldic Cotehardie and was trying to figure out how I was going to applique velvet on velvet and have it still look pristine and lovely. Thank You very much. Denise Mahaffey Denise_Mahaffey@mhsmail.git.gulaero.com ---------- From: Historic Costume List To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME Cc: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: Re: Cotehardie Date: Monday, March 10, 1997 2:15PM On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, don and carolyn richardson wrote: > Gwyn Champlin wrote: > > One last problem, on the quartered one I intended to > > applique my heraldry, would you suggest velvet or satin for the appliques? > > > I don't know how everyone else feels but I would stay away from trying > to applique velvet on velvet. I find velvet hard enough to sew together > without adding complications. I've successfully appliqued velvet on velvet. It helps to have patience. It helps to carefully baste everything down--no shortcuts on this; the more thorough you are with the basting, the less creep you'll get with the applique. I've also managed to use wonder under to make this easier; I use a piece of scrap velvet as a needle board, put my applique piece face-down on top of that, then the fusible stuff, then the garment itself. I fuse the applique piece to the garment from the inside of the garment, without applying any pressure to teh iron to avoid crushing the pile. I suggest doing a test piece first! A period alternative to the satin-stitch edging on applique to consider: fuse your piece down with wonder under (I know, I know, THAT's not period--but in period a glue was used, and this is a modern equivalent that's a lot less messy and won't damage your fabric). Tack the edges down, if you wish, for additional security. Then take cord and lay it on the edge of the applique piece and whip-stitch it firmly in place, all the way around the perimeter of your piece. You have to work the ends of the cord in; the method you use depends on the thickness, the design, etc. But the final effect is quite beautiful. The technique was in use by the fourteenth century; I'd include my reference here, but can't for the life of me put my hands on the book (and I should by rights be working on a 40-page paper, anyway, instead of checking my e-mail, but I can try to find the book later if there's interest...) It's a fun technique, and quick, too. Astrida ***************************************************************************** Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:47:31 -0500 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: source for tabi? Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 10-Mar-97 source for tabi? by Thea Goldsby@aol.com > A friend of mine is looking for a good source for tabi socks (Japanese, big > toe separated). He would like dark blue or black, and wears a U.S. size 11 > (male). Thea, Tell her to try her local martial arts store. If they don't have them, pick up a martial arts magazine--there's sure to be a mail order place advertising that carries them. toodles, gretchen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:47:34 -0500 From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Re: 16th cent. personal hygiene Pick up a copy of Richard Corsons Stage Makeup it will very likely be about 9th or 10th edition currently. It has a very detailedsection on this particular process, and if done carefully, can be done by a novice. You may write back with any questions. Kel On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, barbara shuwarger wrote: > Speaking of eyebrow tweezing, can anyone suggest a method for giving > the look of the high forehead without plucking all one's hairline? What > are the dates for this fashion? I see lots of it in 15th century art > works. > > Barbara > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:47:37 -0500 From: Teri Simonds Subject: Re: source for tabi? There is a store called Ginza on Connecticut Ave. in Washington, DC that sells tabi. I suspect that they could do mail order, although I don't know for sure. I bought a couple of pair of tabi from them years ago and the size posted on the little metal closure tabs was in inches. Your friend may want to get the inch measurement before he calls. Teri S. teri_simonds@sterling.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:47:45 -0500 From: S Weinberger Subject: Re: Lettuce Cap Were ferrets used for fur or only for hunting? Stacey david_key @ VNET.IBM.COM (David Key) 03/10/97 02:16 PM To: H-COSTUME @ BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME) @ BelmontSMTP cc: (bcc: Stacey Weinberger/WAD/International Thomson Publishing) Subject: Re: Lettuce Cap *** CORRECTION *** At the end of last week I tried to recall exactly what animal Lettuce/Lettice etc. came from ... well I remembered wrong and as no-body has corrected me yet I'd better do it myself. Lettuce is the fur of the snow weasel, apparantly more expensive than miniver but cheaper than Ermine The source for this is E. Veale, The English Fur Trade in the Later Middle Ages (Oxford, 1966) which contains more than you are ever likely to want to know about the different types of fur! Sorry for the mistake. Cheers Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:47:48 -0500 From: Kerri Canepa Subject: Re: Tudor & Elizabethan Coifs Greetings, One book you might want to look into is _Dress in the Age of Elizabeth I_ by Jane Ashelford, 1988. There isn't specifically any sections on hats and headgear but there are illustrations and discussions you might find helpful. Another angle you may wish to pursue is historic embroideries. There's a fair number of embroidered coifs of that era that show up in embroidery books. You may or may not want to embroider your coifs, but it will give you pattern examples to follow. Good luck, Kerri "[your favorite quote here]" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:47:52 -0500 From: Kerri Canepa Subject: Re: source for tabi? Thea, I'd suggest any place that provides goods and services to the Japanese community. Some "Oriental" groceries carry all sorts of goods for folks from China, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Southeast Asia, etc. Alternatively, import stores are also a good possibility especially is they carry "oriental" goods. Kerri who got her tabi at the Morikami Museum near West Palm Beach, FL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:47:55 -0500 From: Jan Dockery Subject: Velvet applique' The current (May 1997) issue of Threads Magazine offers a simple technique for 'reverse applique' on page 62. Altho it is not specifically written for velvet-to-velvet, it does illustrate a nice means of eliminating bulk when working with heavier fabrics. In the same issue, check out the 'pockets' article on page 55: 17&18th century pockets make their debute into the '90's....?!?!? It's actually sort of cute for modern dress! jan dockery ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:47:58 -0500 From: Kerri Canepa Subject: Re: Warm weather fabrics Ches, > We do not want to die in the heat either because we all > decided to make something that is not airy enough. Middle eastern is > all layers upon layers if you want to really do it right. That much > silk is expensive and I am not yet convinced that it breaths well > enough to justify wearing it out to a site that is a dust bowl. Yes, Middle Eastern is layers but the number varies depending on the season and the situation. Linen, silk, wool, and cotton were all worn and most likely worn throughout the year. The trick is choosing the right weight of fabric to suit the climate. Two layers of light weight gauze (of any of the above fibers) will keep you covered, cool and comfortable. Someone else mentioned that changing your behavior can also help you keep cool; how true! Most cultures in hot places developed a time during the hottest part of the day to kick back and relax. If you feel compelled to be active during the heat of the day, drink water, keep your head covered, EAT, and rest often. Even if you had no clothes on at all, too much activity can cause all sorts of heat related injuries. Kerri Member of the GArb Snob Patrol (GASP) "It's not who you are; it's what you wear" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:48:09 -0500 From: "SNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM" Subject: Country House Visiting A friend just sent me email about this event. I thought I'd pass it along. This is probably only of interest to those of you in the San Francisco Bay Area. The Berkeley Architectural Heritage Assn is having a do that might be interesting. On March 13 at 8 PM at the Berkeley City Club (2315 Durant Ave.), there an illustrated lecture on The Polite Tourist, Country House Visiting in the Age of Jane Austen. The tix are $12. Call 510-841-2242 for information. Sally Norton snorton@us.oracle.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:48:32 -0500 From: DEAN QUACKENBUSH Subject: Painted Velvet I'd like all your opinions on using painted velvet for reenactment. 1400-1600. I've found some velvet painted with metallic paint which I am considering using for a dress or mans garment. From a distance, the metallic looks great, just a slight hint of metal appears, and the fabric colours are believable. I am well aware that up close this material is probably entirely wrong, but does one see this sort of thing at gatherings? (I've never been). I don't want to be laughed off the grounds. If not appropriate for reenactment, might someone appreciate them for theatrical stage reenactment? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:48:34 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Re: source for tabi? In a message dated 3/10/97 11:25:36 AM, TheaG@AOL.COM (Thea Goldsby) wrote: <> Try calling your local martial arts supply. They usually stock at least one version of the tabi. Unfortunately, it's usually the thin knit tabi that is really only suitable to wear with sandals. Also try Oriental import stores. Some stock tabis of the woven cotton variety. Another alternative is to actually make them yourself. The book, Make Your Own Japanese Clothes by John Marshall ISBN 0-87011-865-X, has instructions of how to pattern and construct them. One good thing about this is that you will have a custom-fit pair of tabi. Even if you find tabis at one of the above sources, usually the sizes are limited. Also the hook and eye closures on the woven cotton ones are pretty flimsy. One last suggestion is to find a large bookstore that carries martial arts/ninja magazines. They usually have mail-order advertisements for rubber-soled tabis that ninjas are supposed to wear. I have been told that they are comfortable, durable and available in many sizes. I knew a stagehand who wore a pair backstage, no doubt so he could move as silently as a ninja. Hope this helps. Kij ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:48:41 -0500 From: "Penny E. Ladnier" Subject: The New Look I ran across an article today in "In Style" magazine titled "The New Look Turns Fifty". It is well worth reading. Make sure to look at the photo with the stage of the House of Dior's collection. Thirty costumes were taken out of the collection to display for whatever (can't recall) the event was. At first glance, it appears models are wearing the gowns, but they are just good dress forms/mannequins. There are also plenty of photos of present day celebratees wearing "The New Look Gowns". I do not know which month the article appeared. I am going back to the doctor's office and ask if I can have the issue. Email me in a couple of days and I'll give you the month of publication. Later, Penny Penny E. Dunlap-Ladnier, Virginia Commonwealth University (& finally graduating in May) s0peladn@erols.com Historic Costume Research http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/2157 member: Costume Society of America American Fashion Council ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:48:45 -0500 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: VArious (again) >I would be puzzled if German immigrants brought in blackwork, as I understood >they were legally confined to a certain area of London so interaction with the >English would have been restricted. I have seen references to the men hiring themselves out as "security" for faires and festivals and there were active landsknechte companies hired for the border. Even restricted areas would still have trade. In any case, the German and Spanish blackwork is both extensive prior to what we see in England. But IMHO, the German blackwork examples look more closely related to the English examples than the examples in the Spanish pictures I have. >BTW - is there only one book on Spanish costume? Another prime resource for Spanish costume in the early 16th c is "Authentic Everyday Dress of the Renaissance - All 154 plates from the Trachtenbuch" by Christoph Weiditz published by Dover - most of the plates are from about 1530 - which is slightly past the date initially requested for a blackwork resource. Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:48:47 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Fwd: Comfort and Clothing FYI --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Re: Comfort and Clothing Date: 97-03-10 22:54:22 EST From: Uduido To: dloberger@esri.com In a message dated 97-03-10 14:25:18 EST, you write: << What in your experience has been the best fabrics to use period and >non period to survive 100+ degree weather with high humidity? >> Two points to consider are>1) the earth was undergoing a "cold" spell at the time and 2) The extensive framework of wood, bone etc. that the ladies of the Current Middle Ages seem to avoid for whatever reasons acted as a airconditioning unit. Allowing cool air to form underneath the garments. This information was relayed to me by Mistress Tamlin and Mistress Camille when I was apprenticed to Mistress Tamlin. I don't have the science handy or the sources but believe me when I say that the actual styles of the upper class where specifically designed to be comfortable as far as temperature was concerned. The lower classes of course were a completely different story. Yours in service, Lord Ras (Uduido@aol.com) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:48:49 -0500 From: Elizabeth Pruyn Subject: More on personal habits Hi there, I read this on the Historic Quilt List and wonder if anyone could address the subject. Yours, Elizabeth OK, here's a challenge for everyone..... Recently DH and I took a much-needed break and went to Williamsburg for a few days (it was wonderful!). Anyway, while we were there, we were conversing with one of the ladies in one of the shops. She had a little kit there with ladies' "personal needs" items in it, like a small pair of scissors, thimble, ear spoon, etc. (I forget what they used to call them, but it wasn't a chatelaine.) Here's the "challenge.." Somewhere in the midst of the conversation, I said something about ladies using the ear spoon to remove wax from their ears and then using the wax on their sewing threads. I know I didn't make this up, but my question is, is there any documentation on this habit? The woman said that several other people have mentioned this, but they (Colonial Williamsburg) haven't been able to find any evidence of it. Am I just perpetuating another myth, or what? Does anyone know anything about this topic, or can you steer me towards a book or something? Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks! Elizabeth Pruyn iteach@slip.net Oakland, CA "If I had been around when Rubens was painting, I would have been revered as a fabulous model. Kate Moss? Well, she would have been the paint brush..." - Dawn French ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:48:51 -0500 From: Paul Onufrak Subject: Velvet Applicae, Wool satin I have done alot of applicae for wearables for the period 1990s. I don't like wonder under for wearables as it does stiffen the fabric. I use spray adhesive. It stinks but it sticks. Spray the back of the applicae in an area quite separate from the garment. Then carefully carry it to the garment. I generally put a light coating down on my spray board first, unless I'm working with very heavy fabric, as the propellant can flip the fabric over, coating both sides and making a really lovely gluey ball suitable for the trash. I find the pins I do use before satin stitching are more of a security blanket than a necessity. Both fusables and spray glue will gum up the needle of a sewing machine. Denatured alchohol or cleaning pads found in chain stores will clean them off. For complex applicaes, I have used tulle. Put one layer of tulle, on top of the RIGHT side of the applicae. Stitch all the way around it. Clip and notch the curved edges. Make a slice in the middle of the tulle, and turn the whole thing right side out. All edges are clean finished. If you are hand applying, it doesn't take much to roll the stitching line under with the hand needle. It's even easier if you stretch the tulle slightly, It wants to turn under, and it's less work. Generally finger pressing will be enough. If you are embroidering or couching/cording over the edge, don't bother. I use tulle, because its cheap, comes in many colors, and adds no bulk. I do spray glue the tulle-finished pieces. I have used this technique on acetate velvet, and cotton velvet sews more easily. Wool Satin- I have no idea what periods its approprite for, but I have worked with it. The groomsmaids dresses for my wedding were made out of it. (I had brides men.) It drapes beautifully, but frays rather badly, and rapidly. I would finish the edges before sewing it. (I bought it in Chicago if you shop in the states as well as UK.) It holds a crease well also. DJ on her husband's account ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:48:59 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: Cotehardie In a message dated 97-03-10 14:23:39 EST, Uduido@AOL.COM (No Name) writes: > > If you back the velvet with iron on interfacing you should no problem at all > using it for your applique. > I haven't had any luck with iron-on interfacing and velvet in a very long time. It rolls the velvet and peels right off. Maybe it's the local weather conditions, or something, but I gave it up. MaggiRos ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:49:01 -0500 From: Ella Lynoure Rajamaki Subject: Colour of the thread and that of the fabric Generally, how well has the colour of the thread matched the colour of the fabric in different eras? Has it been common to dye the fabric and the thread at the same time or have people used a neutral coloured thread on many different fabrics? Ella Lynoure Rajamaki-----------* lynoure@iki.fi * --------------------------------*http://www.iki.fi/~lynoure* ------------------------------------------------------------ a small chaotic multi-era creature.------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:49:07 -0500 From: Scarlett Subject: Re: applique When I was taught applique as a method, I was told to draw the shape on a piece of tracing paper, pin it on the material, sew along the line drawing and then remove the paper and cut the remaining material off. After hearing recent discussions on applique I wondered if you were all familiar with this method, or if it was one you found problems with - I have always found it very useful. love'n'things... Anita xxxxx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:49:13 -0500 From: Scarlett Subject: Re: non-survival of blackwork Blackwork done for the Church in England would have been unlikely to survive due to King Henry VIII's pillaging of the churches and their property. Many important and interesting articles have been lost because of this. Hope this explains your confusion, Caroline! love'n'things... Anita xxxxx ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 10 Mar 1997 to 11 Mar 1997 **************************************************** From ???@??? Thu Mar 13 09:52:48 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA02914 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 13 Mar 1997 06:28:08 +0100 Message-Id: <199703130528.AA02914@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.2DCB852D@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 6:28:07 +0100 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 00:02:01 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 11 Mar 1997 to 12 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 30 messages totalling 937 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. felt applique (2) 2. Fustian (2) 3. applique to velvet 4. Colour of the thread and that of the fabric 5. lapel notches 6. Comfort and Clothing (3) 7. H-COSTUME Digest - 9 Mar 1997 to 10 Mar 1997 8. wigs 9. applique 10. Cotehardie (2) 11. More on personal habits, actually an alternative to wax 12. Pattern Drafting (2) 13. non-survival of blackwork 14. source for tabi? 15. VArious (again) 16. Painted Velvet (2) 17. PLEASE READ THIS! 18. satin weave? (2) 19. FW: Comfort and Clothing 20. source for tabi 21. Applique (in Egypt) 22. Referenced Illuustration about the use of linen, personal hygiene, etc. (3/8/97) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:33:01 -0500 From: Gaelscot@aol.com Subject: felt applique Oh boy! Every once in a while I *really* hate losing the end of the digest, as I do every time it gets over about 800 lines. Today there was a quote from an earlier post that I missed -- sorry, I don't know who originally posted it -- about heraldic applique. This person suggested felt. Was felt applique in general use, or was it just for herald's tabards? Either way, would whoever posted this please send me a source and dates? Tabards with felt applique sound A LOT more practical than what I usually see -- either embroidery or applique with satin. Thanks in advance! Gail Finke gaelscot@aol.com PS: To all the people who have posted me asking for copies of any personal replies I got to my last few questions -- sorry, but I never got any. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:33:23 -0500 From: "L. K. Meeker" Subject: Re: Fustian In a message dated 97-03-09 12:56:08 EST, allilyn@juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) writes: << Fustian, a fabric with a linen warp and a cotton woof, became known in Germany at the beginning of the thirteenth century, and was also, apparently, manufactured at Ulm. >> It was also manufactured in the area around Nurmberg, and was napped and sheared like a felled wool. The closest we have today is probably the heavy-weight shirting flannels in cotton. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 15:18:27 -0500 From: "Sara J. Davitt" Subject: applique to velvet >> Gwyn Champlin wrote: >>One last problem, on the quartered one I intended to >>applique my heraldry, would you suggest velvet or satin for >>the appliques? Hmm.. now my little mind may be running rampant.. but has anyone ever tried either shaving the velvet that is under the aplique?.. OR.. coated the area in wax, flattening the nap, sewing as usual then drycleaning the wax out?(or wash-out elmers glue?) If anyone has tried this, please let me know. Sarahj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 15:18:43 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Re: Colour of the thread and that of the fabric In a message dated 97-03-11 14:34:49 EST, you write: Generally, how well has the colour of the thread matched the colour of the fabric in different eras? Has it been common to dye the fabric and the thread at the same time or have people used a neutral coloured thread on many different fabrics? >> As far as the Middle Ages go, if you inspect closely some of the paintings of the period, you will notice that at least some of the time contrasting threads were used when stiching. I cannot say that thiis was the norm but there are examples in paintings of it's use occasionally. I have done this on several sets of garb and find the affect rather visually pleasant although I have recieved a few side glances and not a few comments. Black or red thread on white is not unpleasant. I find that the costumer in the present often judges the looks of a piece on how well it matches. During the time when sleeves were a tie on accessory, they were almost without acception tied on randomly totally without regard to whether they "matched" the item they were being tied onto or to each other. Lord Ras ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:01:38 -0500 From: Broneske Subject: Re: lapel notches In the book, "American Victorian Costume in Early Photographs" by = Priscilla Dalrymple, on Page 3, Plate #5 there is a man wearing a frock = coat with M-notch lapels. Joan Broneske ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:02:26 -0500 From: "Wichmann, David" Subject: Re: Comfort and Clothing >It is so important to remember that you simply cannot judge >what our ancestors wore and didn t wear because of how >it feels to us >Lastly, I want to share that I have found that much of >the clothing women wore everyday in the 19th c. to >early 20th c. is some of the most comfortable clothing >I have ever owned. So much so, that I don't intend >to ever stop wearing it! Fashion be damned! Why >change what worked, and still does? Susannah, thank you for making such a statement, both verbally and in action. I, for one, support such sentiments. There are so many things from the past which I would dearly love to see revived - and not just clothes. But to the subject of discomfort, I believe much of it is entirely mental. People who find the reenactment clothing uncomfortable are most likely not accepting that it is the fashion, even if it is for the short time they have chosen to wear them. Once they accept that what they wear is what they "have to" wear, it will become more comfortable. In your case, you have made this decision, and the result was predictable. I saw the same thing with a friend of mine. So many times I have heard women speak of how uncomfortable even modern clothes are. Yet when this friend chose [my term, not hers] to undergo a male to female gender reassignment, she found that womens clothes were more comfortable than mens - again, because she now accepted it as necessary. Any way, that's my two cents worth. David Wichmann Sunnyvale, CA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:02:35 -0500 From: Marti Magarian Dolata Subject: Re: H-COSTUME Digest - 9 Mar 1997 to 10 Mar 1997 >A period alternative to the satin-stitch edging on applique to consider: >fuse your piece down with wonder under (I know, I know, THAT's not >period--but in period a glue was used, and this is a modern equivalent >that's a lot less messy and won't damage your fabric). Tack the edges >down, if you wish, for additional security. Then take cord and lay it on >the edge of the applique piece and whip-stitch it firmly in place, all >the way around the perimeter of your piece. You have to work the ends of >the cord in; the method you use depends on the thickness, the design, >etc. But the final effect is quite beautiful. The technique was in use by >the fourteenth century; I have seen examples at the Victoria and Albert done this way, I believe one example is the pall of Sir Roger de Coverlet(?). ..... Sorry, I thought I remembered this better. Marti (marti@ai.chem.ohiou.edu) Entropy.......it's not just a way of life - it's a Law! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:02:41 -0500 From: Rebecca Plummer Subject: wigs Can anyone tell me a good source for mid to late 18th Century men's wigs? Thanks Becci ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:02:46 -0500 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: applique Scarlett wrote: > > When I was taught applique as a method, I was told to draw the shape > on a piece of tracing paper, pin it on the material, sew along the > line drawing and then remove the paper and cut the remaining material > off. After hearing recent discussions on applique I wondered if you > were all familiar with this method, or if it was one you found > problems with - I have always found it very useful. > > love'n'things... > > Anita > xxxxx The only way I have ever seen applique actually done was in Egypt. It is done by men. They make things called "tent squares". They just sit (usually on the floor) and take the piece of material that they are going to applique on, and start to fold it under as they sew it on. No pattern to follow or anything. They do fantastic work, curves and circles and even quotations from the Koran in different Arabic scripts. Interesting to watch! Beautiful results! ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:02:54 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Re: Cotehardie In a message dated 97-03-11 15:20:28 EST, you write: I haven't had any luck with iron-on interfacing and velvet in a very long time. It rolls the velvet and peels right off. >> I meant as a temporary thing to hold it's shape until you sew around it, sorry for the confusion. Lord Ras ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:02:57 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Re: More on personal habits, actually an alternative to wax Sorry, but on this personal habit, I must admit some revulsion. (Actually, just thinking about it stimulates my gag respsonse.) I just learned a trick (new to me anyway) to replace the bee's wax used on thread to help prevent knotting. Run the thread through a fabric softener sheet held between the fingers. It works great!! I think it suplants the bee's wax by far. Yes, I know its not "period", but if it works.. . . . . . !! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:03:00 -0500 From: Rhodry ferch Arianwyn Subject: Re: Pattern Drafting In a message dated 97-03-03 20:38:10 EST, Witlady@AOL.COM (Anne Bannon) writes: << You can e-mail me privately, unless you think the information would be good for the whole group. >> Please, please, please respond to the list. Thank you - Rhodry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:03:03 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: non-survival of blackwork In a message dated 97-03-11 13:59:51 EST, LAW4AXG7@novell4.bham.ac.uk (Scarlett) writes: > > Blackwork done for the Church in England would have been unlikely to > survive due to King Henry VIII's pillaging of the churches and their > property. Many important and interesting articles have been lost > because of this. Hope this explains your confusion, Caroline! > But a lot of things survived, in someone else's house than God's! All that gold plate... MaggiRos ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:03:11 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: source for tabi? In a message dated 97-03-11 14:34:45 EST, Kijee@AOL.COM (No Name) writes: > I knew a > stagehand who wore a pair backstage, no doubt so he could move as silently > as > a ninja. Or as a Japanese stage hand! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:03:15 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: VArious (again) In a message dated 97-03-11 16:17:26 EST, savaskan@znet.com (Julie Adams) writes: [....snip...] >I > understood > >they [the germans] were legally confined to a certain area of London so interaction with > the > >English would have been restricted. > I seem to have missed this one. They may have been restricted to living in one part of the city, but it wasn't a walled ghetto. Interaction just happens. People go to the German craftsmen as they go to other specialists for what they need/want: Lombards, Jews, Italians, Dutch. The English may have been phobically insular, but they weren't blind. And London wasn't all that big: a square mile or so within the walls. Just a note in social history. :) MaggiRos presuming this is not inflamatory ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:03:18 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: Fustian In a message dated 97-03-12 01:45:02 EST, Ashoni@AOL.COM (L. K. Meeker) writes: > > It was also manufactured in the area around Nurmberg, and was napped and > sheared like a felled wool. The closest we have today is probably the > heavy-weight shirting flannels in cotton. > Or maybe baby-wale or no wale corduroy, at it's lightest weight? (every dead horse must have someone to beat it.) MaggiRos ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:03:21 -0500 From: David Key Subject: Re: Painted Velvet Dean Not really a direct answer to your question but I would always recommend doing it right rather than 'cheating' as it almost invariably looks and works better ... it just takes a bit more preparation & research. If you want to paint on cloth have you looked at Cennini's early c15th guide? This is a DIY book for the fifteenth century Italian artist & if I recall correctly describes precisely how to prepare & paint on cloth, amongst other techniques. Personally I'd steer clear of 'metallic' paints ... but then I'd advise against almost any modern paint etc. It is possible to use most original pigments (there are a few notable exceptions which are not advised ... eg. White Lead and Verdigris unless you want ot poison yourself!) and follow the methods very successfully (It's how the Pavises, Pennon, St George Banner & several 'cheap & nasty' paper badges have been made by The White Company ... and they look right as a result. If you really want metal ... why not use gold ... it isn't as expensive as you might think and it is correct. If you don't have the ref. for Cennini send me a note & I'll post it later (once I've found it myself) Cheers, Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:03:24 -0500 From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Re: Comfort and Clothing Lord Ras replied to a question on fabrics as follows: << What in your experience has been the best fabrics to use period and >non period to survive 100+ degree weather with high humidity? >> (this is Lord Ras' bit) >Two points to consider are>1) the earth was undergoing a "cold" spell at the time This 'myth' keeps surfacing and I keep refuting it - you are only talking about a degree or two, which may be significant for geographers, but are not going to make a great deal of difference in clothing terms. Plus, the strongest evidence for the freezing of the Thames is 17th century, after this 'cold' spell referred to. >and 2) The extensive framework of wood, bone etc. that the ladies of the >Current Middle Ages seem to avoid for whatever reasons acted as a >airconditioning unit. I assume he is referring to the farthingale, which was constructed of whalebone, reeds and stuffed tubes of cloth (take your choice). This came in in Spain in the 1480s or 90s, into England in the 1550s, France a little later and never seems to have reached Italy. So, given the SCA's periods, it is very late for them. Plus, you would have to explain why women were opting for a cooler garment just as a 'cold' spell hit! I assume 'Current Middle Ages' refers to the SCA period of 600 - 1600. This was not an homogenous period, in clothing or anything else. >Allowing cool air to form underneath the garments. Certainly a farthingale is a wonderful thing on a hot day - swaying gently gets the cool air moving up your legs, but this kind of behaviour was not approved of in period! >believe me when I say that the actual styles of the upper class >where specifically designed to be comfortable as far as temperature was >concerned. Having worn late 16th century high gentry outfits I can assure him from personal experience that although there is cool air below the waist, above the waist you are tightly corseted and carrying a remarkable superstructure of cloth etc - to the extent that my hair had to be dressed (and shoes and hose put on) before I put on any clothing other than my smock, as once I was corseted I could not raise my hands to my head or bend down. In terms of design for temperature, it was very good at not letting me do very much! >The lower classes of course were a completely different story. Having also worn lower orders' clothes (16th and 16th centuries) , I would much rather wear them, they are much more practical. Including cooking whole animals over an open fire in a kitchen full of visitors wearing linen on my head and wool from shoulders to toes (yes, it was hot, and I know the sensation of sweat trickling down the back of my thighs, even in England!) I would also like to thank Susannah for her superb description of the way we all should think about period clothing, even if it is not practical for all of us to wear the clothes full time, much as we might like to. I am strongly of the opinion that people in the past made the best choices they could, given the conditions they were working under, even if we don't understand those choices. Second-guessing them does not help us understand why and how they made the choices; nor does it give us the opportunity to understand just how good some of those choices were. Ok, off the soap-box (and the questions on soap have made me realise how little I know about that subject - something else to find out about! - I know it was used for linens). Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:03:54 -0500 From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: felt applique On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 Gaelscot@aol.com wrote: > Oh boy! Every once in a while I *really* hate losing the end of the digest, > as I do every time it gets over about 800 lines. Today there was a quote from > an earlier post that I missed -- sorry, I don't know who originally posted it > -- about heraldic applique. This person suggested felt. Was felt applique in > general use, or was it just for herald's tabards? Either way, would whoever > posted this please send me a source and dates? Tabards with felt applique > sound A LOT more practical than what I usually see -- either embroidery or > applique with satin. Thanks in advance! Uh, I hate to put a damper on things, but to the best of my knowledge, felt was *not* used in heraldic tabards in any time period that I know of. Now, the number of extent pieces of heraldic clothing of *any* sort, prior to modern times is very, very small. But, this is my "specialty", so to speak, and from pictures, etc., it seems to me very unlikely that felt was used. Looking at a photograph of a herald's tabard from circa 1707, I see a large amount of gold buillion embroidery, but nothing that could be felt. If anyone has any historical evidence, I would like to see it. Judy/Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy. If it were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world, and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day. - E. B. White ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:03:57 -0500 From: Gary Stephens Subject: Re: Painted Velvet Dean wrote: >I'd like all your opinions on using painted velvet for reenactment. >1400-1600. It might pass. There is considerable evidence to support the fact one inexpensive way of producing a type of cloth of gold was to have designs printed in gold leaf, and this during the period of which you speak. It was rather fragile, apparently, and wore off easily. I'm not sure, however, about it being done on velvet. Lorina ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gary/Lorina J. Stephens photographer/author of _Touring the Giant's Rib_ & _Credit River Valley_ http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html garys@headwaters.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:04:00 -0500 From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: Re: Cotehardie Hello, all, I've gotten lots of requests for the reference on the period applique technique, so I'm posting it to the list: Medieval Craftsmen--Embroiderers, by Kay Staniland, U. of Toronto Press, copyright 1991, ISBN 0-8020-6915-0. Lots of photos and close-ups of extant embroideries, some color, some B&W. There's a photo & close-up of a 14th c. German (if I remember correctly) tapestry/wall hanging done with this technique; the design is similar to the Bayeux tapestry in that a series of scenes is shown next to each other showing the same characters as they progress through the story. The cording used in this piece was gilded leather. Also, when I was in Italy in January I saw a textile hanging in an antique shop window that used the same technique to applique a repetetive stylized leaf design onto a plain ground. It was quite beautiful, and I have no idea what its purpose was (bedding, wall-hanging, curtain, who knows?) and since my Italian is essentially nonexistent (and travel dictionaries don't tend to get that esoteric!) I didn't try to inquire. There was no information posted with it identifying it in any way, but from the look of the pattern I'd hazard a guess it was at least three hundred years old, if not more. The pattern reminded me of some of the leaf-motifs Janet Arnold shows on doublets in her 1500-1600s book. One of those times that my brain took over and started humming "If I were a rich man" from Fiddler on the Roof!! Oh, well.... Astrida ***************************************************************************** Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:11:35 -0500 From: suzanne hader Subject: PLEASE READ THIS! Sorry to interject an administrative note here, but it seems necessary. For some reason, people have started sending mail meant for the list to the owner-h-costume@brownvm.brown.edu and the h-costume-request@brownvm.brown.edu addresses. DON'T DO THIS. It gets forwarded to me and/or Gretchen personally. If you want to post to the list, send your email to h-costume@brownvm.brown.edu These messages will be forwarded to me, but in a format that's easily recognizable as a post to the list, not personal email. Some people seem to have adopted the habit of CC:ing the list owner and request addresses in addition to the h-costume address. This means I will receive 3 copies of the message, which is somewhat more than I require. suzanne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:51:33 -0500 From: Sue Toorans Subject: Re: satin weave? On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Glickman, Bonnie wrote: > > Can anyone tell me the pattern for satin weave? I'd like to try it > in several fibers, including wool. I assume its a longer coverage > than a twill, where you go under one and over three. Will I need an > 8-harness loom? Thanks. > > Bonnie G. B) > ============================================================== > > ============================================================== > Bonnie Glickman bglickman@monroecc.edu I'm not waiting > Biology Dept. bonnieg@frontiernet.net until I'm old... > Monroe Community College glickman@mccvm.is.monroecc.edu I'm wearing my > Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2725 purple NOW!-bg > ============================================================== Since I didn't know off the top of my head I looked it up in several of my weaving reference book. It seems to take at least 5 harnesses. To quote at length form _A Handbook Of Weaves_ by G.H. Oelsner "The satin weave lacks the distinct diagonal line peculiar to the twill, and produces a smooth, lustrous face on the cloth. Adjacent threads in regular satin weaves must never be stitched on the same filling thread. The points or stitchers should be scattered as widely and as uniformly as possible. The farther they are removed from each other, the more indistinct do they become and the more attractive is the cloth. The particular draft to be used for a satin weave depends on the set of the fabric, the quality of the material and the size of the yarn. If the weave is too loose, the result will be a spongy fabric of poor appearance and handle and lacking durability. On the other hand if the weave is too tight for a closely set warp, it will be impossible to drive the required number of picks into the cloth, and the result will be a ribby appearance. The satin weave requires at least five shafts and can be made on any number of shafts above five. Frequently the broken 4-leaf twill weave is called a satin, but strictly spiaking it is a broken twill." There's lots more but I think that gives you the idea. Now let's see if I can get the draw in draft charted in ascii. - - - 4 - - - 5 - - - 2 - - - - - - - 4 - - - - 5 or - 3 - - - - - 3 - - - - - 2 - 1 - - - - 1 - - - - You get the idea. I hoped this helped > Sue I am *NOT* a rabid feminist! I had my shots last year. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:08:00 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Re: Comfort and Clothing << What in your experience has been the best fabrics to use period and >non period to survive 100+ degree weather with high humidity? >> >Two points to consider are>1) the earth was undergoing a "cold" spell at the >time and 2) The extensive framework of wood, bone etc. [corseting] that the ladies of the >Current Middle Ages [and others] seem to avoid for whatever reasons acted as a >airconditioning unit. Allowing cool air to form underneath the garments. This >information was relayed to me by Mistress Tamlin and Mistress Camille when I >was apprenticed to Mistress Tamlin. I don't have the science handy or the >sources but believe me when I say that the actual styles of the upper class >where specifically designed to be comfortable as far as temperature was >concerned. I think the "science" is called sweat. It s a remarkable air-conditioning mechanism, one that too often we 20th century "enlightened" folk don t give ourselves the pleasure of experiencing. There is literally nothing more refreshing than the coolness that results from evaporation. Think of how you feel when you get out of a swimming pool, and multiply it every time there is even the slightest breeze, generated by your petticoats when you move if nothing else. Science it s fascinating!! I guess I need to add, you can t sweat properly if you don t drink water. Not Mountain Dew, not iced tea just water. 8 glasses a day, at least. Cuts down on facial wrinkles and excess fat accumulation, too. >Wonder what ladies of a century and more ago would think of our >synthetics and everything tightly fitted to the body, especially >pantyhose? Also the constant diet and exercise route required to >look good in today's fashions? I think they d feel sorry for us, and wonder how we stand it. Or rather, how you stand it. I got off that wagon over a year ago. No nylon, elastic, tight jeans, or other 20th c. absurdities for me, thanks! It s so funny, how often I hear the comment, and not only from non-historians, who sagely shake their heads over the "fact" that "today s women are in so much better shape than their ancestors that s why they needed to wear corsets and today s women don t." Well, it depends on the woman both today and yesterday. There are as many fainting lilies today as there were in 1883 we just call them "couch potatoes" now. They re equally helpless it s just sad that today it s more self-imposed than yesterday, when the mores of society acted to try to keep a woman from being too active. But there were plenty of "independent-minded" women, often on the fringes of society s reach, such as the western frontier, who were in better shape, in spite of the strain of frequent childbearing and hard work, than many of our own contemporaries. It all depended on the woman, and who she was. I ve been recently reading some Appalachian (eastern U.S.) accounts from early in this century, and they are fascinating. Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." --William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:08:15 -0500 From: "Wichmann, David" Subject: FW: Comfort and Clothing To 'Susannah' Subject RE: Comfort and Clothing Date Tuesday, March 11, 1997 10:56AM >It is so important to remember that you simply cannot judge >what our ancestors wore and didn t wear because of how >it feels to us >Lastly, I want to share that I have found that much of >the clothing women wore everyday in the 19th c. to >early 20th c. is some of the most comfortable clothing >I have ever owned. So much so, that I don't intend >to ever stop wearing it! Fashion be damned! Why >change what worked, and still does? Susannah, thank you for making such a statement, both verbally and in action. I, for one, support such sentiments. There are so many things from the past which I would dearly love to see revived - and not just clothes. But to the subject of discomfort, I believe much of it is entirely mental. People who find the reenactment clothing uncomfortable are most likely not accepting that it is the fashion, even if it is for the short time they have chosen to wear them. Once they accept that what they wear is what they "have to" wear, it will become more comfortable. In your case, you have made this decision, and the result was predictable. I saw the same thing with a friend of mine. So many times I have heard women speak of how uncomfortable even modern clothes are. Yet when this friend chose [my term, not hers] to undergo a male to female gender reassignment, she found that womens clothes were more comfortable than mens - again, because she now accepted it as necessary. Any way, that's my two cents worth. David Wichmann Sunnyvale, CA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:08:19 -0500 From: Donna Holsten Subject: Re: satin weave? > Can anyone tell me the pattern for satin weave? Satin weave is a 1-4 "twill" done by raising (or lowering) harness 1, 3, 5, 2, 4, repeat. You need at least 5 harnesses to do satin weave. In a "normal" twill, the harnesses are raised in order, so the small floats make a nice, regular progression, which is what gives the diagonal "lines". In satin weave, the harnesses are raised as out-of-order as possible, so that there are no lines and the fabric gives the impression of an unbroken surface. And, just in case anyone might be interested, here's what the _MOL's Textiles and Clothing_ book says about satin weave. (In the "Silk textiles" chapter, p 122-123.) "The cloth was introduced into England no later than the last quarter of the 13th Century...By the late 14th century, garments including doublets, tunics, hanselyns and sloppes cut from satin were fashionable. It was also used for furnishings...as well as for girdles and garters...The colors favoured in England as [sic] this period were white, black, blue, red, "blodei" and green. [They decorated it with embroidery.] Painted decoration was sometimes applied as a cheaper alternative." The book then describes the finds--all five-end satins, warp-faced, warp with a "strong Z-twist" and untwisted weft. The density is looser than "modern" satin. And then there are several pages talking about satin damask. Donna (holsten@nature.berkeley.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:08:32 -0500 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: source for tabi Also try Bugei Trading co. (martial arts, but also lots of other Japanese cultural stuff including kimono, etc.) they have a website at www.bugei.com (I think that's the address, it's not hard to find) It will give you the phone no. anyway. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu >Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 10-Mar-97 source for tabi? by >Thea Goldsby@aol.com >> A friend of mine is looking for a good source for tabi socks (Japanese, big >> toe separated). He would like dark blue or black, and wears a U.S. size 11 >> (male). > >Thea, > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:08:50 -0500 From: Broneske Subject: Pattern Drafting A while back there aparently was a thread regarding pattern drafting. = Sorry, but I don't remember the exact question or comment in the thread. = I noticed someone asked that a reply be posted to the list (Rodry?) Anyways, just to add my 2-cents and hope that it helps whoever asked the = original question about pattern drafting......I have just completed a = late-1860's outfit which I copied from a book (don't remember the name = of it, but it had a lot of sketches of actual dresses and showed detail = of the inside, construction, trim, etc.....Nora Waugh, Janet Arnold, = somebody like that, I think). I drafted my own pattern using the = instructions in "The Costume Technician's Handbook" by Ingrahm and = Covey. I am not what I would call a professional seamstress, but I can = report that I had fabulous results using this method. I know that it is = mainly for theatrical costuming, but I did modify it somewhat to try and = recreate period seams and cut. I think that the drafting instruction that they give is clear, simple = and can be done even by someone who is not very experienced at that sort = of thing. I also notice, of course, that the more outfits I make, the = better I get! :) Well, back to hemming (Yuk) Joan Broneske unicorn@softcom.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:08:56 -0500 From: Kelvin Wilson Subject: Re: Applique (in Egypt) R.L. Shep wrote: >The only way I have ever seen applique actually done was in Egypt. It >is done by men. They make things called "tent squares". They just sit >(usually on the floor) and take the piece of material that they are >going to applique on, and start to fold it under as they sew it on. No >pattern to follow or anything. I don't have any personal knowledge of the technique but was sent on an errand to buy one of these squares in Cairo's 'Street of the Tentmakers' only last November. So I happen to know that R.L.' s last remark about the people not having a pattern to work from ain't quite so: the design is drawn by pencil on the background material. This shows through where the applique pieces on top don't quite fit. There's not much of interest in the above but some of you might be interested to hear that the first time we visited Cairo's bazar and the men who make the appliques, it was because of the similarity between their work and ancient Egyptian applique-textiles we were at the time researching. Kelvin Wilson - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kelvin Wilson archaeological illustrator Bijlwerffstraat 13-A 3039 VD Rotterdam The Netherlands e-mail kelvin.wilson@tip.nl - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 16:12:49 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Referenced Illuustration about the use of linen, personal hygiene, etc. (3/8/97) I am resending this because it has not shown up on the list yet (As far as I can tell): I've snipped out of several messages I've received both on the list and offlist: I would agree with Teresa ... > Why would you presume a "crisp" looking dress in an illumination wouldbe > linen? y and add ... what is the manuscript illumination you are talking about as, if you are correct, I'd be very interested. >>If you have A History of Private Life II, Revelations of the Medieval World, that picture is in the center with the other color plates.> > The subject illustration in "A History of Private Life Revelations of the Medieval World" could be either a 15th century painting Titled "Le Livre de la Cite des Dames" on what would be page 263, or an (Illustration?) on the following page. Its been awhile since I read this book, and I've not returned yet to the text to find the reference to these paintings. By refering to "it" as an illustration, I will assume until told otherwise that that (Nancee?) was writing about the latter, as its subtitle leads one to believe it was an illustration from an book named "Les Evangdes quenouilles" (also 15th). At any rate, the picture is of a collection of women spinning. They appear to all be dressed in white. (Interesting 'belts' on a few of them) I understand why the drape of the clothing might be interpreted as being crisp, though it could be just the style of the artist?? The former picture looks like an painting of an imagined city of women. My french is poor at best, but roughly translated I think it might mean 'a glance at' or 'a testamonial of' the lives of women. The scene is of 15+ women appearing to present themselves to a collection of (judges?) in the middle of an extremely forshortened castle courtyard. All the characters are female. The women appear to be lifting their skirts for inspection. The focus of interest appears to be the bottom of the outer skirt almost all of which are trimed with ermine. (At least it looks like white fur with black teardrops). There are two figures in the "front" who appear to be wearing brown furlined dresses (or overdresses). No sign of snow or other 'coldness', and they are sitting outside for goodness sakes. Well who knows, they are all dressed in white too, but does that indicate warmth? I'd like to thank Nancee for returning me to this book, and refocusing me on the Illustrations. I had studied the text for a better understanding of what life might have been like. I looked at the pictures but not closely, and now am taking great pleasure at a closer look of the illustrations for costuming purposes. I "missed" out on what a great source they were on the first read with regard to behaviour at the time. For those of you bantering about personal hygiene, this text has quite a lot to say about the fact that bathing might not have been as scarce as comonly thought. While I am babbling, there is a wonderful "close up" of two little boys on page page 260 attendng a weding?? The picture is from said to be from 1474, and the boys are said to be dressed in the family colours of the da Gonzaga family. They just might be dressed in crisp lightweight fabric too!! Looking forward to all comments, Saragrace T. Knauf ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 11 Mar 1997 to 12 Mar 1997 **************************************************** From ???@??? Fri Mar 14 10:07:41 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA10339 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:35:24 +0100 Message-Id: <199703140535.AA10339@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <1.5B491338@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 6:35:22 +0100 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 00:02:20 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 12 Mar 1997 to 13 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 20 messages totalling 658 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. satin weave? 2. 1775-1785 French costumes? (3) 3. Linen Sources? 4. VArious (again) (2) 5. Referenced Illuustration about the use of linen, personal hygiene, etc. (... 6. Period shoes 7. Need Elizabethan Corset advice 8. Blackwork 9. pineapple (3) 10. Lettuce Cap 11. (Fwd) Re: non-survival of blackwork 12. 1690-1720 French Theatrical Costumes 13. Trades, Crafts, Foreigners, London 14. satin weave 15. Vanishing h-costume archives ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:46:01 -0500 From: Gray Hunter Subject: Re: satin weave? suetoo & halsten, I Know absolutely nothing about weaving except you have a warp & a weft & that's it. I've never done any weaving & I've never watched anyone weave closely ... BUT ....I think I understand perfectly what you are talking about! I use twill a lot for corsets & flat lining and I can see how by breaking up the regular diagonal pattern a satin would result. What good teachers you are. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:46:05 -0500 From: Chris Adams Subject: 1775-1785 French costumes? Hello, I'm looking for some 1775-1785 French costume paterns, recources, pictures, or places to purchace them does anyone know of any places I can go or web sites I can visit. Thanks Chris P.S. To get a better idea of what I'm looking for please look at the bellow URL. http://www.siue.edu/COSTUMES/COSTUME13_INDEX.HTML plate#73 a-d plate#75 a plate#76 a-d ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:46:10 -0500 From: Rhonda McConnon Subject: Linen Sources? Dear List, After reading the postings concerning linen and fustian I began to wonder what the vast resources might be for asking the following question. 'Where does everyone buy their linen?' I'm always looking for new sources as I use alot of it for Rev. War period. I'm particularly looking for drill or twill linen. I 'm aware of the Ulster Linen Company in NY and if anyone is intersted in their address please E-mail me. I'd also like to know about mills you may know of in your area, catolog sales, seconds shops etc. Please e-mail me off line and I'll prepare a list, should this be a successful endeavor. Thanks for any and all help! Rhonda mmcconnon@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:46:24 -0500 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: VArious (again) Maggie Pierce wrote: > > In a message dated 97-03-11 16:17:26 EST, savaskan@znet.com (Julie Adams) > writes: > [....snip...] > >I > > understood > > >they [the germans] were legally confined to a certain area of London so > interaction with > > the > > >English would have been restricted. > > > I seem to have missed this one. They may have been restricted to living in > one part of the city, but it wasn't a walled ghetto. Interaction just > happens. People go to the German craftsmen as they go to other specialists > for what they need/want: Lombards, Jews, Italians, Dutch. The English may > have been phobically insular, but they weren't blind. And London wasn't all > that big: a square mile or so within the walls. Just a note in social > history. :) > > MaggiRos > presuming this is not inflamatory What period of history are you talking about? Before they expelled the Jews or after they let them back in??? ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:46:30 -0500 From: Michael N Morell Subject: Re: Referenced Illuustration about the use of linen, personal hygiene, etc. (... Saragrace: I read with intrest your ramblings and quite agree with your conclusions. In fact the one underlying current which seems to be coming out of this discussion is that wool has been the fabric of choice for most western clothing from the begining of time to the 1960's when for a brief epoch it was suplanted by polyester. People are now returning to wool. I have found it interesting that the more into history/living history a person gets the more they seem to realize that there was a reason for what was done in the past and that if they are going to portray a historical period then they have to follow the line of reasoning prevelent in the period which they are portraying. I hope that last statement makes sense. Having been in the living history business for over 30 years I have made all of the mistakes and come up with all of the excuses for doing things wrong. If you want to wear linen bad enough, you will eventually find the one reference to linen outer clothing in the period when 99% of the people wore wool or silk. My research also indicates that through out history most societies have had a healthy regard for cleanliness and that bathing regularly (meaning diferent things at diferent times) has been quite common; except during the dark ages in southern and central Europe. "When we study the ancients we must keep in mind that they thought they were modern." Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:46:49 -0500 From: Whitney Subject: Period shoes Yesterday I went to the DeYoung Museum in San Francisco. They have a wonderful exhibit of shoes from 16th Century to present day. I remember there being some discussion lately about someone looking for period shoes from 1830(?). There are a few pairs in the exhibit. They look basically like ballet slippers, but with a thin stiff sole and a square shaped toe. This exhibit will only be there a total of six weeks, I suggest all shoe lovers see it. There are also some new works of art that look like shoes by a Santa Cruz artist who's name escapes me (they say the memory is not the first thing to go, but I can't remember what went first). --Whitney ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:46:52 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: VArious (again) In a message dated 97-03-12 19:16:44 EST, shepgibb@mcn.org (R.L. Shep) writes: > > What period of history are you talking about? Before they expelled the > Jews or after they let them back in??? LOL, I'm sorry. I am so involved in the 16th century, I sometimes forget that everyone isn't with me automatically. I am speaking of Elizabethan England. I certainly don't mean to say that there is a visible Jewish community in London. (I've never heard of such a thing between 1558 and 1603 anyway) but there are Lombards, Flemings, Germans of various kinds... religious refugees and others. ( I also tend to stay in the present tense, since I spend so much of my time there, I guess.) MaggiRos ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:46:55 -0500 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Need Elizabethan Corset advice Hello friends. I need your help. The other day I tried on my Elizabethan corset for the first time since the birth of two babies and four years of non-stop nursing. Well, I can tell you that the changes this wreaked on my body were substantial. I started out 100 lbs overweight and a size 24-26 (5'9"). I still weigh the same and wear the same size, but everything is different. The spare tire I used to carry high around my waist has dropped to my hips, giving me an actual waistline for the first time in my life, and my formerly firm D-cups are now soft, squishy C cups. In the past, I have patterned my corsets by the slash and spread method to achieve a smooth, conical shape. No more! When I tried it on, the waist was too loose, and my breasts, rather than swelling up, flatten against my chest wall and dissapear into my armpits. Even worse, I seem to have far more flesh on my back than before, and it *does* swell up above the corset. Frankly, it looks as if my head is on backwards. How should I go about patterning a new corset? I'm really not as concerned with having the corset be period in pattern as I am about it giving the garments over it a smooth, attractive line. I've considered putting "bananas" in to hold my breasts front and center, or possibly using a shoulder strap to push them together. For the back, I think cutting it fairly straight, with a high back more like an 18th century model, and continuing the boning up past the swell line might work. Does anyone have other ideas? Margo Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:47:02 -0500 From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Blackwork Dear Maggie et al Julie Adams) writes: > problems with attribution again, actually I wrote the following, in the context of transmission/source of blackwork - Julie Adams had said that it could have come from Germany through the Germans working in England as some of their decorative work was similar: >I understood they [the germans] were legally confined to a certain area of >London so interaction with >the English would have been restricted. > and MaggieRos wrote: >I seem to have missed this one. They may have been restricted to living >in one part of the city, but it wasn't a walled ghetto. Interaction just >happens. People go to the German craftsmen as they go to other >specialists for what they need/want: Lombards, Jews, Italians, Dutch. The >English may have been phobically insular, but they weren't blind. And >London wasn't all that big: a square mile or so within the walls. Just a >note in social history. :) They weren't confined to a ghetto, but the residence and movement of foreign merchants and craftsmen was controlled as there was dislike of the competition they posed to English workmen. There were riots on occasion in London against foreign workers. I'm not saying the English were phobic or racist, but they certainly had the view that any trade should be in English hands. As for control of movement, this applied to the English as well - certainly anyone other than gentry who wanted to travel had to have a passport or licence from a local notable (eg magistrate) saying who they were, where they came from and where they were going and why they wanted to travel - there was an active trade in forgeries in the later 16th century. To take some of the races mentioned in detail: a lot of the Germans in England were merchants, not craftsmen, representatives of the Hanseatic League, which was tough competition in the 16th century in the Baltic area. As for Jews, there were very few in England until the law was changed in the 17th century, Henry VIII had brought a family, the Bassanios in in the early century, who I have been told were Italian Jews, and they dominated court music for most of the century; Elizabeth's physician was also a Jew - but they are few and far between - it is interesting the Merchant of Venice is set in Italy. Italians (which includes Lombards), a few, ambassadors and merchants, but you only have to read Shakespear to understand contemporary attitudes to Italians. The Dutch - latter part of the 16th century they are busy fighting the Spanish, sometimes involving the English in expensive support. As for prejudice, the English could be prejudiced against the people living in a neigbouring county (known as country), never mind across the sea. The people living in Suffolk were very rude about Essex-born people. London was certainly small, and was the centre of trade and law for the country (even then there were provincial centres). It was not the centre of power, that was the court, which was only in London for short periods. So, to understand its influence on fashion, we would then have to discuss how many people visited the city and for what purposes. Judging by the Paston letters, Lisle letters etc, this would mostly be men (family or agents) involved in court cases or trying to curry favour with powerful people. Purchases for the family were secondary - they are the topic of much of the Paston letters. I doubt whether this kind of contact could have spread blackwork throughout the country, although I would accept a particular style could have spread if there was a firm foundation of domestic embroidery (whether secular or ecclesiastical) already in existence in the country. >MaggiRos >presuming this is not inflamatory I'm sorry if what I've said above is inflamatory, but 16th century people were not politically correct. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:46:58 -0500 From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: pineapple Not strictly costume (not costume at all actually) - but does anyone know the relevance of a pineapple on church textiles - ie vestments, altar frontals etc.? We've found one on a pulpit drop in our local church in Epsom, Surrey, but have no idea of why it is depicted. Many thanks, Sally Ann ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:46:21 -0500 From: S Weinberger Subject: Re: Lettuce Cap Were ferrets (weasel family) used for their fur at all, or just for hunting? Stacey david_key @ VNET.IBM.COM (David Key) 03/10/97 02:16 PM To: H-COSTUME @ BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME) @ BelmontSMTP cc: (bcc: Stacey Weinberger/WAD/International Thomson Publishing) Subject: Re: Lettuce Cap *** CORRECTION *** At the end of last week I tried to recall exactly what animal Lettuce/Lettice etc. came from ... well I remembered wrong and as no-body has corrected me yet I'd better do it myself. Lettuce is the fur of the snow weasel, apparantly more expensive than miniver but cheaper than Ermine The source for this is E. Veale, The English Fur Trade in the Later Middle Ages (Oxford, 1966) which contains more than you are ever likely to want to know about the different types of fur! Sorry for the mistake. Cheers Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:39:45 -0500 From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: Re: 1775-1785 French costumes? The Northern Society of Costume and Textiles in England publishes a pattern for a dress worn by the wife of a French boatmen on the Seine towards the end of the 18th century but I can't remember the exact date. The original dress is, I think, at Castle Howard in Yorkshire. I seem to remember that it is actually a skirt and bodice type arrangement rather than a gown. Any use? Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ---------- From: Chris Adams To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME Subject: 1775-1785 French costumes? Date: 13 March 1997 08:46 Hello, I'm looking for some 1775-1785 French costume paterns, recources, pictures, or places to purchace them does anyone know of any places I can go or web sites I can visit. Thanks Chris P.S. To get a better idea of what I'm looking for please look at the bellow URL. http://www.siue.edu/COSTUMES/COSTUME13_INDEX.HTML plate#73 a-d plate#75 a plate#76 a-d ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:39:57 -0500 From: Scarlett Subject: (Fwd) Re: non-survival of blackwork > Blackwork done for the Church in England would have been unlikely to > survive due to King Henry VIII's pillaging of the churches and their > property. Many important and interesting articles have been lost > because of this. Hope this explains your confusion, Caroline! > > love'n'things... > > Anita > xxxxx > love'n'things... Anita xxxxx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:40:01 -0500 From: Jan Dockery Subject: 1690-1720 French Theatrical Costumes Chris Adams wrote that he is looking for info on 1775-1785 French costumes....Looks like he and I should be working together on this thread !!! Im looking for info on 1690-1720 French theatrical costume references, inc wigs of the period. I could also use good pattern drafting references for English clothing during the first quarter of the 18th century---1700-1725. This period is somewhat 'gray' in our favorite drafting books, such as Arnold & Waugh. I have found maybe 3-4 cutting patterns on the loosely cut women's Mantua's of the period, but I would like to see a wider variety, including of course, the cut of stays, and wig info. More references seem to be available on the collar-less, bucket-cuff menswear than on womens styles. Muchas gracias for any info!!! ......jan costumes@dnet.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:40:04 -0500 From: laura yungblut Subject: Re: Trades, Crafts, Foreigners, London If anyone is interested, I cover all the points -- and a few others made by Caroline in my book _Strangers Settled Here Amongst Us: Policies, Perceptions and the Presence of Aliens in Elizabethans England_ (London : Routledge, 1996), ISBN 0-415-02144-8. Not much on costuming in it, but a pretty good deal of information on the immigrants' technological contributions (*much* in the textiles and textiles-related industries), etc. Don't buy it -- the publisher made it *very expensive* (L37.50, $55) but maybe a library near you has it or can order it for their collection. Respectfully submitted by a long-time lurker -- Laura Hunt Yungblut Univ. of Dayton yungblut@checkov.hm.udayton.edu ******************************************** Domina Misericordia non domi erit hac nocte. Sic hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes. ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:40:19 -0500 From: Sue Toorans Subject: Re: satin weave On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Glickman, Bonnie wrote: > > Can anyone tell me the pattern for satin weave? I'd like to try it > in several fibers, including wool. I assume its a longer coverage > than a twill, where you go under one and over three. Will I need an > 8-harness loom? Thanks. > > Bonnie G. B) > ============================================================== > > ============================================================== > Bonnie Glickman bglickman@monroecc.edu I'm not waiting > Biology Dept. bonnieg@frontiernet.net until I'm old... > Monroe Community College glickman@mccvm.is.monroecc.edu I'm wearing my > Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2725 purple NOW!-bg > ============================================================== Since I didn't know off the top of my head I looked it up in several of my weaving reference book. It seems to take at least 5 harnesses. To quote at length form _A Handbook Of Weaves_ by G.H. Oelsner "The satin weave lacks the distinct diagonal line peculiar to the twill, and produces a smooth, lustrous face on the cloth. Adjacent threads in regular satin weaves must never be stitched on the same filling thread. The points or stitchers should be scattered as widely and as uniformly as possible. The farther they are removed from each other, the more indistinct do they become and the more attractive is the cloth. The particular draft to be used for a satin weave depends on the set of the fabric, the quality of the material and the size of the yarn. If the weave is too loose, the result will be a spongy fabric of poor appearance and handle and lacking durability. On the other hand if the weave is too tight for a closely set warp, it will be impossible to drive the required number of picks into the cloth, and the result will be a ribby appearance. The satin weave requires at least five shafts and can be made on any number of shafts above five. Frequently the broken 4-leaf twill weave is called a satin, but strictly spiaking it is a broken twill." There's lots more but I think that gives you the idea. Now let's see if I can get the draw in draft charted in ascii. - - - 4 - - - 5 - - - 2 - - - - - - - 4 - - - - 5 or - 3 - - - - - 3 - - - - - 2 - 1 - - - - 1 - - - - You get the idea. I hoped this helped > Sue I am *NOT* a rabid feminist! I had my shots last year. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:40:22 -0500 From: Kristin Smagula Subject: Re: 1775-1785 French costumes? I'm not sure if you're looking for information, or how to make an actual garment. If the former: Although this isn't a web site, Dover Books offers a reprint from the Galerie des Modes, 1778-1787 called Eighteenth Century French Fashion Plates in Full Color ed. by Stella Blum, $13.95. Or try Yale University Press- Aileen Ribeiro - Art of Dress Fashion in England And France 1750-1820. Both are available for purchase online through www.bookstore.com For the internet, http://locutus.ucr.edu/~cathy/masq.html has an image of a masquerade dress from the period specified. Also, The Los Angeles County Museum at www.lacma.org has a page. They have a section on clothing and textiles, and should have some images. They published a book on the period called An Elegant Art, with lovely photos of gowns from their collection. I hope this helps. Kristin Smagula-The Historical Gazette ksmagula@flinthills.com "To understand the initial impressions...of western Kansas, it should be remembered that Coronado had someone strangle the guide who led him there." by Craig Miner ---------- From: Chris Adams I'm looking for some 1775-1785 French costume paterns, recources, pictures, or places to purchace them does anyone know of any places I can go or web sites I can visit. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:40:27 -0500 From: mamcom%vth@brownvm.brown.edu Subject: Re: pineapple According to Chandler, Sally A.: > > Not strictly costume (not costume at all actually) - but does anyone know > the relevance of a pineapple on church textiles - ie vestments, altar > ... Not at all costume - but: The pineapple motif is shown in the semicircle windows above front doors. Its the little criss cross panes of glass that make up the diamond checker board. This was a symbol of hospitality. It said travelers were welcome, come on in, tell us the latest news, have dinner and a bed. Margaret Mayer University of Minnesota Veterinary Teaching Hospitals My dog ate my .signature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:40:53 -0500 From: Sue Toorans Subject: Re: pineapple On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Chandler, Sally A. wrote: > > Not strictly costume (not costume at all actually) - but does anyone know > the relevance of a pineapple on church textiles - ie vestments, altar > frontals etc.? We've found one on a pulpit drop in our local church in > Epsom, Surrey, but have no idea of why it is depicted. > > Many thanks, > > Sally Ann > Wow. Two questions in the same week that I know something about... In many cultures the pineapple is a symbol of welcome. Beyond that, I'm in the dark. But it's a place to start. Sue I am *NOT* a rabid feminist! I had my shots last year. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:42:07 -0500 From: Diane Close Subject: Re: Vanishing h-costume archives After a 7 month absence I rejoin this list in time to see that someone asked: > > I just went looking for the h-costume archives, to find them gone! The > > URL I have for the site is: http://reality.sgi.com/pdc/h-costume/ and suzanne hader replied: > I did not maintain these archives, so I can't speak to where they've gone. > *but*... > [alternative archive access info deleted] The address http://reality.sgi.com/pdc/h-costume/ is my and my husband's web (home page) address. I used to keep the h-costume archives there when I co-ran this list from my husband's machine, "lunch". He left Silicon Graphics to go to a start-up and I followed shortly after and the list moved to brown.edu. My husband has since returned to SGI, but I'm still at the start-up and will happily be there for a while. Our accounts on "lunch", as you can see from my signature, have been reactivated, but he had to remove all the disk-consuming archives from our web site 'cause I'm not managing them or the list anymore and he doesn't have the time to maintain the archives either. Sorry, but thems the breaks. -- Diane Barlow Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com, close@virtualvin.com Yes, I'm back at lunch some days. Visit www.virtualvin.com to see what I do with the rest of my time. :-) ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 12 Mar 1997 to 13 Mar 1997 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Mar 17 10:33:39 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA18343 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 15 Mar 1997 06:33:09 +0100 Message-Id: <199703150533.AA18343@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <13.361AAFDF@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 6:33:09 +0100 Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 00:02:17 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Mar 1997 to 14 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 11 messages totalling 302 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Students on the Internet 2. Mid Eighteenth Century Evening Wear 3. VArious (again) 4. pineapple princess 5. pineapple 6. Velvet Applicae 7. 1690-1720 French Theatrical Costumes 8. tabards and stuff 9. Medieval underwear teacher from 30YC 10. Painted Velvet 11. Lettuce Cap ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:45:55 -0500 From: Rick Botti Subject: Students on the Internet Once in awhile, amidst the clutter that is the Internet, something special comes along. A site that reminds us of all the Net can be. I have found two such places over the weekend. Visit Mrs. Laddish's 4th Grade Decades Project Homepage. Co-creator Courtney LeGates, age nine, says her class is using the Internet to study each decade. http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~dlegates/laddish/index.htm Second on my list is James Field's Morgantown High School "History Plus" page. Mr Field and his students have created an excellent resource for anyone who wants to learn more about history. http://access.mountain.net/~thrush/ Rick ********************************************************* Rick Botti Website at: http:www.sns.com/~rbotti/ "Flapper Station" E-mail at: rbotti@sns.com ********************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:46:10 -0500 From: Adriane Elizabeth Wyndham Subject: Mid Eighteenth Century Evening Wear I am looking for a patterns during this time. My husband watched "Interview With a Vampire" and fell in love with the formal wear of the vampires in france. I am looking in particular for a pattern similar to the capes they were wearing. I apologize for my vague description, but my historical knowledge is poor. Thanks for any help you can give us. Forever lurking, Adriane W. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< "If ever there was a woman deserving of happiness, it is my Love." --Richard, written to his bride-to-be on March 24, 1996 Adriane Wyndham aelizab@bgnet.bgsu.edu (419) 352-1752 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:46:17 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: VArious (again) I'm not copying any of the message into this one, because it's been asked an answered already, and this is at least the second time I've received this question, among others, in the last couple of days. Is anyone else having trouble with duplication, or is it just AOL "upgrading" the mail service again? MaggiRos ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:46:13 -0500 From: J & B Subject: Re: pineapple princess > On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Chandler, Sally A. wrote: > > > > > Not strictly costume (not costume at all actually) - but does anyone know > > the relevance of a pineapple on church textiles - ie vestments, altar > > frontals etc.? Sue - The pineapple was a common decorative motif, especially from the end of the 18th century on.continuing into favor in the early 19th century. The pineapple itself, of course was not known until the european discovery of the new world. During the Georgian period it was used as an emblem of hospitality, and carved into furniture (including pulpits) used in woodwork and stencilled on walls. Hope this helps - Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:46:26 -0500 From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Re: pineapple And I believe that the "pine-apple" referred to is what we today call a "pine cone". Since "apple" was used for a long time as a general term for fruit and the "pine cone" was considered the fruit of the pine, the combined term "pine-apple" makes sense; it predates the arrival in Europe of the sweet juicy "pineapple" we eat today. Joan Jurancich joanj@quiknet.com At 08:40 PM 3/13/97 -0500, mamcom%vth@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU wrote: >According to Chandler, Sally A.: >> >> Not strictly costume (not costume at all actually) - but does anyone know >> the relevance of a pineapple on church textiles - ie vestments, altar >> ... > >Not at all costume - but: The pineapple motif is shown in the semicircle >windows above front doors. Its the little criss cross panes of glass >that make up the diamond checker board. This was a symbol of hospitality. > >It said travelers were welcome, come on in, tell us the latest news, >have dinner and a bed. > > > >Margaret Mayer >University of Minnesota >Veterinary Teaching Hospitals > >My dog ate my .signature > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:47:19 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: Re: Velvet Applicae DJ writes: >> Put one layer of tulle, on top of the RIGHT side of the applicae. Stitch all the way around it. Clip and notch the curved edges. Make a slice in the middle of the tulle, and turn the whole thing right side out. All edges are clean finished. What a great idea. I have lots of tulle, in all colors. I bought a yard of every color they had to cut into seam finishing strips. It doesn't fray, and if you pull just slightly, it curls around the seam edge while you zig-zag. I bought it to do a working wardrobe of summer linen dresses and suits. Just one problem--it chafes and itches the blazes out of you where ever it can find a smidgen of skin. Had to cut every bit out of a beautiful linen dress. And endure the side-long looks as I twitched the first day I wore it! Allison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:47:51 -0500 From: J & B Subject: Re: 1690-1720 French Theatrical Costumes Jan Dockery wrote: Im looking for info on 1690-1720 French theatrical costume references, > inc wigs of the period. Yes! Theatre costumes . . . . Jan, here are a few books to try: "Costume on the Stage 1600 - 1940", Diana de Marly, 1982 "The Baroque Theatre" Margarete Baur-Heinhold, 1967 "Costume in the Theatre" James Laver 1964 (for the pictures) Marie-Fran=E7oise Christout has also published several books on dance and b= allet costumes of = the period - mostly beautifully illustrated. Good Luck! Bob Skiba Re-creating historical theater is my special field of interest. Please emai= l me privately - I'd = love to know what you're doing! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:48:24 -0500 From: "Urbik, Jordana" Subject: tabards and stuff > >I am writing for two reasons. First of all, I am puzzled by the message >that I received on Monday(below)(I have been kinda too busy to inquire >about it before.) Would anyone know if there was any reason that I was >removed, and I get back on? > The second is that in reading a book on Ferdinand and Isabella by >Felipe Fenamdez-Armesto (Taplinger publishing company, 1975-i know this >is old but..) I came across a passage that the author quoted(and >translated also I assume) from Cronicon de Valladolid ( which is an >account of an tourney held in 1475 by Their Catholic Majesties), it >describes "the Queen(Isabella) was dressed in brocade and wore a crown and all >her ladies had tabards, half in green brocade and half in light brown velvet >and all embroidered with crowns.....14 ladies were so dressed." > The reason that I write this is that I seem to recall that someone >suggesting that velvet would not have been used in this type of thing, >and while this is not exactly like what the original lady was looking >for, it sounds similar to what she wanted to make for herself, just with >embroidery insed of applicae. My sincere apologies for whatever spelling errors which I have not been >able to fix with spell check, I am just writing this quickly as I have >LOTS of work to do today. > Good day and good luck with all projects, Jordana Urbik > > >>---------- >>From: L-Soft list server at Brown University >>(1.8b)[SMTP:LISTSERV@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU] >>Sent: Monday, March 10, 1997 4:39PM >>To: Urbik, Jordana >>Subject: Your removal from the H-COSTUME list >> >>Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:39:26 >> >>You have been removed from the H-COSTUME list (Historic Costume List) by >>grm+@ANDREW.CMU.EDU. >> > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:48:27 -0500 From: Valerie Winkler Subject: Medieval underwear teacher from 30YC Hello, all! I just heard that at the SCA 30-year celebration last Spring, a lady taught some classes on medieval underwear. I'm working on underwear and would like to compare notes, off-list. If that lady is on this list or if someone on the list knows how I can contact her, please email me privately at Kateoakley@aol.com. PS to Maestra Damiana and Mistress Freydis, I did a 14th c doublet, braes and hose as an A&S project - took a first in regional. Thanks for the inspiration!!! Regards, Val Winkler, known in SCA as Catherine Oakley ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:48:30 -0500 From: David Key Subject: Re: Painted Velvet In response to my reference to Cennini ... the book is called ... The Craftsman's Hanbook Il Libro dell'Arte by Cennino d'Andrea Cennini transl. D. V. Thompson ISBN 0486-20054-X (New York,1960) and there is a specific section on how to paint on velvet. Cheers, Dave p.s. DIY means 'Do It Yourself' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:48:33 -0500 From: David Key Subject: Re: Lettuce Cap I was asked (I'm not sure how seriously) whether Ferret was used for fur in the middle ages ... well ... I've been unable to find a reference to Ferret fur as such but FITCH is a medieval term for the fur of the polecat ... which is essentially a ferret by another name if I recall. Whether you would really want to wear a ferret's fur anywhere near you is another question judging by their infamous aroma. Cheers, Dave ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 13 Mar 1997 to 14 Mar 1997 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Mar 17 10:33:40 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA21510 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 16 Mar 1997 06:19:19 +0100 Message-Id: <199703160519.AA21510@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <3.711C1872@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 6:19:17 +0100 Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:01:10 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 14 Mar 1997 to 15 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 17 messages totalling 484 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. pineapple 2. Mid Eighteenth Century Evening Wear (2) 3. Regency Costume 4. von Boehn's Modes and Manners 5. 1775-1785 French costumes? 6. Painted Velvet 7. When did they invent oil cloth? 8. Linen Sources? 9. Need Elizabethan Corset advice 10. Men's kilts during the Civil War 11. Velvet Applicae 12. Costume comfort and corset.. 13. tabards and stuff 14. VArious (again) 15. Trades, Crafts, Foreigners, London 16. pineapple princess ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:26:48 -0500 From: Gray Hunter Subject: Re: pineapple In a message dated 97-03-14 11:53:46 EST, you write: << And I believe that the "pine-apple" referred to is what we today call a "pine cone". Since "apple" was used for a long time as a general term for fruit and the "pine cone" was considered the fruit of the pine, the combined term "pine-apple" makes sense; it predates the arrival in Europe of the sweet juicy "pineapple" we eat today. >> Interesting! This makes sense. Isn't the paisley a stylized pine cone also? >From India? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:27:04 -0500 From: Gray Hunter Subject: Re: Mid Eighteenth Century Evening Wear Hi, I worked on "Vampire". Do you mean the early stuff? The movie does cover several periods. I only worked in New Orleans so if its the late 18th century, early 19th century stuff..... Many of the capes were merely circles or part of one. They were generally not gored but had straight pieces sewn selvage to selvage to make a piece of cloth big enough to get the circle out of. The men also wore coats w/ multiple capes. You can find patterns for this type of coat in a book by Nora Waugh called "The Cut of Men's Clothes". Lestat's opening costume [The one in which he flies up to the top of the ship mast w/ Bad in tow] consisted of a purple silk velvet great coat cut like a typical 18th century coat but with the hem brought to the floor. This makes it very full & cape-like. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:27:18 -0500 From: Robin Bryan Subject: Regency Costume Hey! I am putting together a bibliography on Regency Fashion for my graduate class(Library School). I would love any feedback on favorite resources: books, CD-ROM products, etc. I am finding the web sites The Regency Homepage and The Regency Fashion Page most helpful. I am gearing my bibliography toward people who are Regency romance fans who want to better understand the clothing descriptions in novels, as well as aspiring Recency romance novelists.Thank you for any input. Robin Bryan TBearsGirl@msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:27:27 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler Subject: von Boehn's Modes and Manners >We've had threads on linen and on cotton, so I thought you might be >interested. >Looking for another reference, I came across this in > von Boehn, Max. _MODES AND MANNERS_, translated by Joan Joshua. >Benjamin Blom, New York, ?, vol. I. I read most of this book a few months ago while researching early 16th-century German costume. I would like to warn others about von Boehn's historiography. His descriptions of fabrics, the subject of the original post, may be entirely accurate, but I found that much of his information was anecdotal and extremely biased (especially against the French--some of the denunciations regarding the virtue of French ladies were very funny). He also tends to relay interesting information without assigning dates (and certainly without citing sources). This is another case where finding corroborating sources is a really good idea. His (ethnocentric) 19th-century preferences for the amusing and the arcane sometimes interfere with our late-20th-century preferences for "objective" scholarly rigor. While the book is entirely worthy of applause in the areas of fascinating historical trivia and tales, it is not as useful in the pursuit of the "factual." (I will restrain myself from a tangential discussion of the nebulous subjects of "fact" and "objectivity." Hopefully we have all become more aware of the relative nature of all such things by following the wonderful discussions about cultural and historical perspectives on this list.) Cheers, Melanie mjschues@students.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:27:51 -0500 From: Ken & Dianne Tidy Subject: Re: 1775-1785 French costumes? At 08:46 AM 3/13/97 -0500, Chris Adams wrote: >Hello, > I'm looking for some 1775-1785 French costume paterns, >recources... Try J. P. Ryan's patterns. She is located in Berryville, VA. Excellent directions and well documented. For a lady try the back-lacing stays and caracao jacket pattern. I have studied two extant caracao jackets from the late 1770's with provenance of the Alsace region of France. They were cut very much like the Caracao jacket in Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion, Vol. 1. Both jackets were block printed cotton. One with a chocolate brown ground with rose pink carnation style flowers and vines; the other with a white ground rose and pencilled blue flowers and vines. Ryan's men's patterns include a 1770's frock coat (slightly cut back with Frock collar and does not button), a waistcoat pattern that has three waistcoats (1750, 1760, and 1770 including sleeved and sleeveless), and a breeches pattern that is the height of the breeches makers art. An original pair of breeches with French provenance that match her pattern are in the Philadelphia Art Museum and are part of the "Fox" suit. A three piece men's suit, by provenance, made for a young man's "tour" while he was in France. The silk has been identified as French (selvages visible). Black and white photographs of this suit appear in in Symposium Papers, volume 2, Men's Dress 1750 to 1800, given at the University of Delaware. While the papers are out of print, you may locate someone who has a copy. Also shown in Charles and Tandy Hersh's book, "Textiles and Clothing, 17.. to 18..(? I do not have my copy handy for the exact title) published by the Cumberland County Historical Society, Carlisle, PA (1995). Winterthur bookstore (Winterthur Museum, Wilmington, DE) may still have a few copies. Well documented 18th century French dress has been difficult to reproduce until just recently. Too many misinterpretations and poor research coupled with romanticized myths. Good luck, Dianne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:27:57 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: Painted Velvet In a message dated 97-03-14 11:55:12 EST, david_key@VNET.IBM.COM (David Key) writes: > Il Libro dell'Arte > > by Cennino d'Andrea Cennini > transl. D. V. Thompson > ISBN 0486-20054-X (New York,1960) > > and there is a specific section on how to paint on velvet. > > Cheers, > Dave > > p.s. DIY means 'Do It Yourself' > I swear, I thought the reference was to Cellini! LOL, my brain is entirely gone, I fear. MaggiRos ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:28:05 -0500 From: Ella Lynoure Rajamaki Subject: When did they invent oil cloth? A friend of mine claimed oil cloth was around already in medieval times but I feel quite sceptic about that. Could someone tell me when oil cloth (that thick fabric treated with oil, so it is waterproof) was invented and in what clothes it was used before our time? Ella Lynoure Rajamaki-----------* lynoure@iki.fi * --------------------------------*http://www.iki.fi/~lynoure* ------------------------------------------------------------ a small chaotic multi-era creature.------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:28:13 -0500 From: "Diana H." Subject: Re: Linen Sources? Rhonda McConnon wrote: > > Dear List, > > After reading the postings concerning linen and fustian I began to wonder > what the vast resources might be for asking the following question. 'Where > does everyone buy their linen?' I have been fortunate to live where there is a wonderful discount fabric store and I usually buy it there. However, Burnley & Trowbridge also sell very nice linens for $7-$8 a yard, 36-58" wide. They also sell nice lightweight wools for $8 a yard, 60" wide. They might carry fustian as well. And they are REALLY NICE! You can e-mail them at JASBurn@aol.com for a catalog. And for a few dollars more, they will include swatches of the fabrics they carry. I 'm aware of the Ulster Linen Company in NY and if anyone is > intersted in their address please E-mail me. I would love to have their address!! But do they have minimum quantity requirements? And would I need a resale license? Please let me know. Thanks and I hope this helps! Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:28:19 -0500 From: "Diana H." Subject: Re: Need Elizabethan Corset advice Margo Anderson wrote: > The other day I tried on my Elizabethan > corset for the first time since the birth of two babies and four years of > non-stop nursing. Well, I can tell you that the changes this wreaked on my > body were substantial. > How should I go about patterning a new corset? I'm really not as concerned > with having the corset be period in pattern as I am about it giving the > garments over it a smooth, attractive line. In general, when I need to alter something from an existing pattern, I start by putting on the ill-fitting garment (corset, in your case). Then I take some measurements and draft a new pattern onto muslin or a cheap fabric (for corsets, however, you may want to use a stiff fabric like twill or denim that will give you the *form* without stretching as much as muslin will). I then cut it out and baste seams as necessary then try it on. Hopefully, it will be more like what you are looking for. With a few minor adjustments, I rework the cutout and try it again until I get the fit I want. Then, just take out the basting stitch and you have your pattern. This works really well, by the way, if you have a pucker or are tempted to put in a dart somewhere. You make a mock-up putting the darts in as necessary to get the fit right. Then you leave the darts in and flatten out the fabric. Retrace onto another piece of muslin or whatever and you can almost always create a pattern without darts/puckers! This works very, very well for ladies who have *generous* bustlines! I've considered putting > "bananas" in to hold my breasts front and center, or possibly using a > shoulder strap to push them together. I understand that some corsets had a kind of "bust shelf" created by padded rolls in strategic places. Never tried it myself but it sounds interesting. For the back, I think cutting it > fairly straight, with a high back more like an 18th century model, and > continuing the boning up past the swell line might work. I have tried this and it DOES help. Also, reinforcing your bodice with stiff fabrics and/or hair canvas helps. That way you are getting support from two places. And the bodice can distribute the excess stuff more evenly. I actually did this with a dress made to go with a corset and now I don't even use the corset, the support is so good. There are some minor bulges in places but I don't mind. I hope this helps you, Margo. Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:28:35 -0500 From: Karen J Farris Subject: Re: Men's kilts during the Civil War If anyone on the listserve could help me or put me in touch with someone who can, I'm interested in finding out how men's kilts were pleated during the Civil War. I do know that far less fabric was used, due to the difficulty of getting tartan. If you feel your answer will be too wordy for this list, you can E-mail me privately. Karen Farris alysea@juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:28:43 -0500 From: Beth + Dallas Bardot Subject: Re: Velvet Applicae > DJ writes: > > >> Put one layer of tulle, on top of > the RIGHT side of the applicae. Stitch all the way around it. Clip and > notch the curved edges. Make a slice in the middle of the tulle, and > turn > the whole thing right side out. All edges are clean finished. > > > What a great idea. I have lots of tulle, in all colors. I bought a yard > of every color they had to cut into seam finishing strips. It doesn't > fray, and if you pull just slightly, it curls around the seam edge while > you zig-zag. I bought it to do a working wardrobe of summer linen > dresses and suits. Just one problem--it chafes and itches the blazes out > of you where ever it can find a smidgen of skin. Had to cut every bit > out of a beautiful linen dress. And endure the side-long looks as I > twitched the first day I wore it! > > > Allison > Allison, and everyone else: There's a product called Seams Great which accomplishes the same seam-finishing, but WITHOUT ITCHING!!! It comes in several colors, too. I think I got mine from Nancy's Notions, or maybe Clotilde. Beth Bardot bardot@cris.com So many hobbies, so little time... O- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:29:08 -0500 From: Linda Thompson Subject: Costume comfort and corset.. Finally caught up on a months+ worth of list...Wow was there a lot of terrific info in them... On comfort... Residing in KC Missouri and having faire from late August to October you have a range of temps 105 deg.99% humidity down to low 40's with 40% humidity. On a 105 day, you need fabrics that quickly evaporate since there is usually not even a hint of a breeze. Any natural/organic fabric will do that if it is lightweight enough, including wool. On a 40 deg. day you wear heavier weight fabric and/or layer as much as needed. (And each persons "comfort" levels/requirements are different!) It is a practical assumption that Elizabethan Era citizens wore fabrics that were available to them and they wore different weights, weaves and layers as the weather permitted/required, just as we do today. "Vanity" prevents many people from using common sense on what they wore back then just as it does now. (For myself, I stay away from wool, it has always made me itch (even lamb skin furs) and it seams as if I am "too warm" with it on. But then again, when I lived in Grand Forks, ND for 4 years I also didn't wear coats outside unless the weather was cold enough to cause frostbite.) Corset advice for Margo... (AUTHENTICITY POLICE COULD FAINT AT THIS SO PLEASE SKIP THIS PART FOR THOSE WITH WEEK CONSTITUTIONS) I too am a "large" lady. (150+ lbs overweight). Last year for my corset, since I got bruises and on the tops of my hips and on my stomache when I wore an "authentic shaped" elizabethan corset, I used a victorian style pattern as a beginning. I really upsized it and reduced the amount of curve in the torso (leaving a bit of the outward "flair" in the upper 1/4 of it to accomodate all of my flesh)I left some allowance over the hips. It kept my back from bulging out over the back edge. It was ok, but I also had the problem of my breasts flattening out and oozing out to my arm pits by mid-day. I am currently working on a variation. I am going to make a new corset so the panels that go under the arms have no flair at the top at all (probably will make one large side panel instead of 2 smaller ones) and am adding a LOT more stays to the sides for re-inforcements! I might even try a small additional gusset in the front to keep the "ladies" looking forward. I have not been satisfied with my attempts with adding pillows but have not given up on them entirely. As a side note, I have found a few pictures of overly well-fed upper class women. In these portraits, the women do not appear to be wearing breathtakingly tight clothing. From what I could see they are wearing loose bodice/jackets or Surcoats. But ::sigh:: I still have enough vanity to try and squeeze my ample frame into the "accepted" shape. Good luck and let me know what you come up with... Linda Thompson No official affiliation with any group other than some incredibly talented friends and a "costume guidance counselor" for KCRF. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:29:14 -0500 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: tabards and stuff Urbik, Jordana wrote: "the Queen(Isabella) was dressed in brocade and wore a crown and all > >her ladies had tabards, half in green brocade and half in light brown velvet > >and all embroidered with crowns.....14 ladies were so dressed." > > The reason that I write this is that I seem to recall that someone > >suggesting that velvet would not have been used in this type of thing, I think that someone (I think it may have been Judy who's expertise is heraldry and heraldic display) said that *felt* wouldn't have been used this way - the original post inquired about using velvet on velvet for heraldic display. Carolyn/Tetchubah ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:30:03 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Re: Mid Eighteenth Century Evening Wear In a message dated 97-03-14 12:13:58 EST, you write: << H-COSTUME@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU >> Amazon Drygoods carries several different makers of historical patterns. I remember watching "Interview" and thinking the same thing about the cloak that the little girl vampire wears. I don't remember what the men's looked like; did they have two layers? I believe there are several patterns for such cloaks. I know in earlier times many of the cloaks were unisex, but I seem to remember from that period, that they might have started to split off. I know for sure that Folkwear has a pattern for the Kinsale cloak which is very different than what you are looking for, but also very beautiful. I have made this cloak for myself and love it. (I happened to find a mother load of teal coloured featherweight ultra suede [$1/yd1111] and just couldn't overcome the urge to do something that is probably completely unauthentic. But I only wear it to the theater, so no one ever sees it!!) I also notice that several of the modern pattern companies have cloak patterns in their everyday wear sections (as opposed to the craft/costume sections) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:30:07 -0500 From: Gary Walker Subject: Re: VArious (again) AOL's new mailer 3.0 sends duplicate messages when using the automatic mail functions. Apparently it can't tell when it's already sent the message. If you send the message manually it doesn't happen. People who don't sign on often may not have noticed it and turned off this section or deleted the message from the mail file after it was sent. Gary R. D. Walker ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:30:41 -0500 From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Re: Trades, Crafts, Foreigners, London Would you believe, I received a catalogue from Routledge yesterday, and was looking at their description of this book! Maybe library, they had too many other interesting books to buy them all! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:27:54 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: pineapple princess In a message dated 97-03-14 11:52:30 EST, midski@erols.com (J & B) writes: > > The pineapple was a common decorative motif, especially from the end of the > 18th century > on.continuing into favor in the early 19th century. The pineapple itself, of > course was not > known until the european discovery of the new world. During the Georgian > period it was > used as an emblem of hospitality, and carved into furniture (including > pulpits) used in > woodwork and stencilled on walls. > Hope this helps - > > Bob Skiba > The thing I've never ever understood was how the prickly pineapple got this connection with hospitality. Bemusedly, MaggiRos ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 14 Mar 1997 to 15 Mar 1997 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Mar 17 10:33:40 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA24783 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 17 Mar 1997 06:14:44 +0100 Message-Id: <199703170514.AA24783@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <3.F7F2EF5B@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 6:14:43 +0100 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 00:01:01 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 15 Mar 1997 to 16 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 12 messages totalling 319 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. tabi socks 2. Top Ten Lies Costumers Tell 3. pineapple princess 4. Landsknecht Garb? (2) 5. Elizabethan Corstet advice. 6. pineapple (2) 7. 14th cent costume 8. The use of Linen in perio... 9. VArious (again) 10. Warm weather fabrics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 11:12:23 -0500 From: "Glickman, Bonnie" Subject: tabi socks Hi All! I just got the Vermont Country Store catalog for Spring 1997. They have a white sock that fits your description of the big toe separate except they call them "Doctor's Bunion Socks" - 50% cotton, 40% rubber, 5% nylon, 5% lycra spandex, one size for men & women, $18.95 for a pair. Catalog # 25169, 1-802-362-2400 (Discover, MC or Visa) or by mail - PO Box 3000, Manchester Center VT 05255-3000. At 50% cotton they could probably be dyed; they are not recommended for folks w circulatory problems or diabetes They also sell cotton stockings, bloomers and forms for wraping your hair over to make french twists, buns, etc. Lot's o' K@@L stuff! (Disclaimer: I don't own stock in the company, etc.) PS THANKS to all for the satin weave info... Much appreciated!!! Regards from cold & windy Rochester, NY. Bonnie G. B) ============================================================== Bonnie Glickman bglickman@monroecc.edu I'm not waiting Biology Dept. bonnieg@frontiernet.net until I'm old... Monroe Community College glickman@mccvm.is.monroecc.edu I'm wearing my Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2725 purple NOW!-bg ============================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 11:12:45 -0500 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Top Ten Lies Costumers Tell TOP TEN LIES COSTUMERS TELL 10. It's a Flemish style. 9. I got it on sale 8. It looks just like the natural fiber. 7. It shrank. 6. This color can be achieved with natural dye. 5. All my references are in storage. 4. I do it that way because it's stronger than the period method. 3. I'm going to finish that as soon as we get on site. 2. It's a theatrical decision. 1. I have documentation for this. Sorry, everyone, but I needed to indulge in a little humor...I just found out I need $6000 worth of dental work, and no insurance! :-( Margo Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 11:12:48 -0500 From: "Kimberly J. Wegner" Subject: Re: pineapple princess > The thing I've never ever understood was how the prickly pineapple got this > connection with hospitality. > I've always been told that sailors brought back pineapples from thier travels which thier families would place at the entrance of thier houses to indicate that the sailors were home. This way friends could stop by to hear stories and catch up with the sailors. I have no idea if this is the case but it's what I was told. Kimberly kjwegner@mtu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 11:12:54 -0500 From: "Dave E." Subject: Landsknecht Garb? I am interested in producing a Landsknect costume and was told that you would be the people to ask. I would be greatful for any information that you could give me concerning patterns, styles, and any place that I might find a picture or two to get ideas from. I appreciate any and all help you can give me concerning this matter. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 11:12:57 -0500 From: Guinevere White Lee Subject: Re: Elizabethan Corstet advice. You may want to try a set of horizontal bones across the top front edge of the stays in addition to straps and a high back. See 'Corsets and Crinolines' page 42. I have used this style of stays alot and have found it quite good for shaping the wandering bust line. One important tip: a well fitting set of stays does not always happen on the first drafting. Several mock ups may need to be fit to get the perfect fit, depending on your patterning and fitting experience. Take the time to do this it pays off in the end. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 11:12:59 -0500 From: Sheree & Bill Watson Subject: Re: pineapple >And I believe that the "pine-apple" referred to is what we today call a >"pine cone". Since "apple" was used for a long time as a general term for >fruit and the "pine cone" was considered the fruit of the pine, the combined >term "pine-apple" makes sense; it predates the arrival in Europe of the >sweet juicy "pineapple" we eat today. > >Joan Jurancich >joanj@quiknet.com > Every carved pineapple I've ever seen on American colonial furniture, buildings and quilts has very clearly been a pineapple, not a pinecone. I think the pine-cone, pine-apple etymology may be a bit of a stretch. Also, I can see how what must have been an exotic, expensive piece of fruit could evolve into a symbol of generous hospitality; I am having trouble seeing pinecones taking that same trip. Bill Watson State Road, NC ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 11:13:03 -0500 From: Arfursmom@aol.com Subject: 14th cent costume In case anyone else would like the info I sent Stephen..... Stephen John Borthwick wrote: > > I am looking for a good reference to 14th century costume, especiallly > the costumes of nobles, knights and heralds. Can anyone help ? > I know I'm late to answer, sorry folks. We have a set of 2 books that when I ordered them I thought would be good for dress documentation. However, to my lord husbands delight, they best document armor. The books are: Irish Medieval Figure Sculpture 1200-1600 The inside cover describes this set as "a study of Irish tombs with notes on costume and armoour" and "In the Catalouge every known effigial tomb is listed and described, with references to the 340 plates in Volume 2......." I don't remeber how we got the lead on the title but I remember that a bookstore who specializes in searches finally found it in the out of print warehouses (ie, not B&N, Waldens etc, but a small place). We've had it for several years and paid close to $100 by the time we covered the search and postage costs. It is published jointly by Sotheby Parke Bernet and Irish University Press. The ISBN# is 0 85667 012 X. It listed then at $70.00 (25.00 pounds). John Hunt is the author along with Peter Harbison assistance and David H. Davison as the photograhper. Volume one is text and volume 2 has the plates. Hope this can help you. Baroness Anntionette Rose, SCA Mary Hurst ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 11:13:07 -0500 From: Arfursmom@aol.com Subject: Re: The use of Linen in perio... T>....... It is harder for linen to hold a shape then say, taffeta, a T>very crisp and popular silk in the 15th century going on the T>wedding and household accounts and wills of the English I've T>looked at. Teresa Would you please share the names of books/documents the accounts and wills were in? Thanks. Baroness Anntionette Rose, SCA Mary Hurst ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 11:12:50 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: VArious (again) In a message dated 97-03-15 21:31:09 EST, Gerekr@AOL.COM (Gary Walker) writes: > > AOL's new mailer 3.0 sends duplicate messages when using the automatic mail > functions. Apparently it can't tell when it's already sent the message. If > you send the message manually it doesn't happen. People who don't sign on > often may not have noticed it and turned off this section or deleted the > message from the mail file after it was sent. > > Gary R. D. Walker > Well now at least we know for sure it's AOL. Speaking of which, a question I asked and have had an answer to already was in this very batch of mail. Please ignore and delete. MaggiRos ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 17:29:36 -0500 From: Arfursmom@aol.com Subject: Re: Warm weather fabrics M>Cotton or linen based fabrics mimicking other fabrics in drape M>and weight i.e damasks, velveteen, cotton sateen (a friend made M>a late 15th German in this that came up beautifully) are a good M>alternative. I've had good results with a cotton blend sosl a Sundance Chino in my part of the United States (Illinois). It is a medium to heavy cotton blend that has draped well for coathardies and Italian Ren. Baroness Anntionette Rose, SCA Mary Hurst ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 20:58:04 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: Re: pineapple Sherree, >Also, I can see how what must have been an exotic, expensive piece of fruit >could evolve into a symbol of generous hospitality; I am having trouble >seeing pinecones taking that same trip. Think of medieval cooking, in which pine-nuts often are used by great houses. Chiquart, head cook to the Duke of Savoy, used them a great deal. The lavish feasts of noblemen epitomize hospitality. The 'pineapple' motif appears in some textiles before I thought it could actually have been discovered by the textile makers' cultures. If they are doing pinecones, it makes sense to me. Allison ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 21:08:51 -0500 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Landsknecht Garb? >I am interested in producing a Landsknect costume and was told that you >would be the people to ask. I would be greatful for any information that >you could give me concerning patterns, styles, and any place that I might >find a picture or two to get ideas from. I appreciate any and all help you >can give me concerning this matter. The ones with asterisks are my choices for "if you could only get 3 books on Landsknechtes, which ones would I pick..." Dover Publishing Co. Books - The Complete Woodcuts of Albrecht Durer The Complete Engravings and Etchings of Albrecht Durer The Book of Trades - Jost Amman Decorative Renaissance Woodcuts - Jost Amman Vicellio's Renaissance Costume Book - Vicellio Costumes Through the Ages, by Braun and Schneider The History of Costume, by K. Kohler (This book has some construction information.) Other Books - The World of Durer, by Time Life Books Hans Holbein, by Phaidon *The Landsknechtes, by D. Miller and G. Embleton, Osprey Men-at-Arms Series Lucas Cranach, by Friedlander and Rosenberg Bruegel, by G. Martin Peasants, Warriors, and Wives, by Kieth Moxey Artists and Warfare in the Rennaissance, by J.R. Hale *Patterns of Fashion, 1560 to 1620, by J. Arnold (This book has some good patterns and photographs of period costumes and details.) Daily Life in Holland in the year 1566 - Poorvliet (excellent for material culture) Out of Print (Library Books) - The German Renaissance Woodcut Series *The Triumph of Maximillian, woodcuts by Hans Burgkmair and others (by Dover) If you have any specific questions, just let me know... I am in a Landsknect reenactment group here in So. Calif. There is also one in the Bay area in Northern CA and on the East Coast near Washington DC/ Maryland area. Julie Adams ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 15 Mar 1997 to 16 Mar 1997 **************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Mar 18 10:22:31 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA03225 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 18 Mar 1997 06:23:39 +0100 Message-Id: <199703180523.AA03225@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.619355B1@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 6:23:39 +0100 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 00:03:36 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 16 Mar 1997 to 17 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 15 messages totalling 410 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Landsknecht Garb? (2) 2. Blackwork in Spain Question 3. Cotehardie 4. Velvet Applicae, Wool satin 5. 5/6th Century Chinese (2) 6. pineapple/PAISLEY (3) 7. Linen Sources?(Burnley and Trowbridge) 8. 1775-1785 French costumes? 9. Historic costume and textile site 10. pineapple ? .02 cents worth 11. Need suggestions for museums to visit ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 09:09:16 -0500 From: Gray Hunter Subject: Re: Landsknecht Garb? What wonderful styles they are too! Wild stuff. I hear the style comes from honoring the triumphant return of Swiss(?) troops. Tho' victorious they were in rags thus the slashing. Some good examples of this style are in the book "Historic Costumes in Pictures" by Braun & Schneider [Dover 0-486-23150-X]. Remember these etchings were done from 1861-1890 so they are indeed Victorian interpretations but they are theatrically wonderful. I'd suggest making them from leather if you're gonna do all that slashing....which you must. Also, again not an accurate source, but Richard Burton wears one to his wedding in Zefferelli's "Taming of the Shrew" [Yeah, the one w/ Liz]. Like I said, it's a costume but a very effective one & probably the nearest thing to seeing a real 3-d example in motion. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 09:09:26 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: Re: Blackwork in Spain Question Hi Eowyn, Last week you asked about blackwork embroidery. I don't have much on Spain, but in _Erica Wilson's Embroidery Book_, Charles Scribner's Sons, NY, 1973, Erica Wilson shows photos of blackwork, paintings, and samplers and speaks of the history. The Moors used geometric patterns in their decoration, and this is picked up by the Christians in their work. Another reference I read not long ago remarked on the Arabic characters woven into a noble's costume in France. I don't think Christians knew what the characters meant, and simply saw them as decoration. They reappear in metalwork, as well. By the 1400's Spain had been dominated by Moors for 8 centuries. The interlaced strapwork patterns and geometric designs characteristic of Spain at this time are the ones which first appeared in England, in double running stitch. She mentions other influences, such as the popularity of wrought iron and even Celtic strapwork. Chaucer refers to blackwork embroidery, amd John Wylgryse of Coventry left among his effects "Pintheamen consutum cum serico nigro" My Latin is pretty poor; I can get "with black silk" but not what the first 2 words are. Catherine of Aragon's arrival made black work more popular than ever. There is more, try to get it through interlibrary loan. I suggest looking in the library sections on museum collections and art history for Spanish, English and German portraits that will have good motifs for you to copy. Hope this helps, Lady Allison ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 09:09:29 -0500 From: Rhodry ferch Arianwyn Subject: Re: Cotehardie Rhodry posting from His Grace's account. In a message dated 97-03-09 12:55:09 EST, benrumson@worldnet.att.net (don and carolyn richardson) writes: << I find velvet hard enough to sew together without adding complications. >> A roller foot does wonders for velvet and other difficult fabrics. - Rhodry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 09:09:33 -0500 From: Rhodry ferch Arianwyn Subject: Re: Velvet Applicae, Wool satin In a message dated 97-03-11 15:20:26 EST, pnomail@bratshb.uwc.edu (Paul Onufrak) writes: << I have done alot of applicae for wearables for the period 1990s. I don't like wonder under for wearables as it does stiffen the fabric. I use spray adhesive. It stinks but it sticks. Spray the back of the applicae in an area quite separate from the garment. Then carefully carry it to the garment. >> Beacon's Liqui Fuse also works great (I like it better than wonder under also). You just run a bead of it around the edge (backside) of what you want to fuse and then iron on. It can be ironed on wet or dry. I usually put it on, let it dry, then position on the fabric and iron/fuse. This way you can play with positioning without smearing the glue! - Rhodry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 09:09:36 -0500 From: Leigh Ann Schwarzkopf Subject: 5/6th Century Chinese Greetings. Anyone know of good reference for 5th and/or 6th century A.D. Chinese clothing? I need pictures/sketches of children's clothing, military uniforms and lady/women's clothing. Thank you in advance for any help. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:14:06 -0500 From: Elizabeth Lear Subject: Re: 5/6th Century Chinese Subject: Re: pineapple/PAISLEY > Interesting! This makes sense. Isn't the paisley a stylized pine cone also? > >From India? Yes......but, Paisley is the the Scottish town which was the most prolific western center of shawl manufacture. The name is now synonymous, to most of us, with the stylized pine motif. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:54:44 -0500 From: Jim and Angela Burnley Subject: Re: Linen Sources?(Burnley and Trowbridge) Dear List We have just seen the posting from Rose regarding our company. Thank you for the kind reccomendation and yes we do carry Fustian. We have had a steady source for about nine years now and you will find it widely used among the reenactment and historic community. We carry it in a light and heavy weight at a price of $5.00 per yard. It is plain woven with warp cotton yarn and natural linen weft yarn. (just the opposite of the weave in the 18th century, but undetectable once a garment is constructed) See pg. 204 of Anders Berch Collection At the Nordiska Museet. And before you argue that fustian was only twill woven, napped, and or striped, see pg. 244 Textiles in America by Florence Montgomery. Alas, fustian is a rather generic term covering many types of fabrics. I have been collecting tidbits for awhile now in hopes of eventually compiling a thorough study of fustian, it's evolution and uses. Any and all tidbits you care to pass along would be greatly appreciated. Our fustian samples are in our catalog fabric swatches. We sell our catalog as a packet with the 24 fabric swatches for $3.00. Our mailing address is: Burnley and Trowbridge 319 Oaktree Road Williamsburg, VA 23188 We hope we may be of service, and we hope once again that we have not offended the list by posting our catalog information. Thank You, Angela Burnley jasburn@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:54:56 -0500 From: Jim and Angela Burnley Subject: Re: 1775-1785 French costumes? Hello, just to let you know that Burnley and Trowbridge do carry all of Janice Ryan's patterns and usually have full stock of all sizes. You'll find them listed in our catalog, and I second Dianne's motion that they are well documented and have excellent directions. Regards, Angela Burnley Burnley and Trowbridge 319 Oaktree Road Williamsburg, VA 23188 757-253-1644 e-mail: jasburn@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:55:00 -0500 From: Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living Subject: Historic costume and textile site The 'Meg Andrews, Antique Costume & Textiles' site has just added some images of unusual costumes and textiles including: 1. Persian prayer mat. 2. Egyptian tent hanging. 3. Syrian festive dress from Saraqeb 4. William Morris & Co. embroideries. There is also an article on '19th C. Chinese Sleevebands' written by Meg Andrews at http://www.victoriana.com/shops/andrews/sleeve.html. Joanne Haug ***************************************************** Joanne Haug "Victoriana-Resources for Victorian Living" http://www.victoriana.com and "Reflections of the Past, Antique Costume & Textiles" http://www.victoriana.com/antiques registry@victoriana.com Voice/Fax(216)835-6924 ***************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:55:05 -0500 From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: Re: pineapple ? .02 cents worth >Also, I can see how what must have been an exotic, expensive piece of >fruit could evolve into a symbol of generous hospitality; I am having trouble >seeing pinecones taking that same trip. I've heard the "sharing of an expensive imported item" reason behind the pineapple being a symbol of hospitality. Colonial Williamsburg uses that story and I saw a story involving George Washington. (Can't remember where, sorry). >Think of medieval cooking, in which pine-nuts often are used by great >houses... The lavish feasts of noblemen epitomize hospitality. I think there was no period confusion between the pinecone and pineapple. Pine nuts are used extensively in Middle Eastern cooking. Spanish and Middle Eastern culture have been linked since the Arab presence in the ealy 700's. In Spanish the words aren't as close as in English, I believe. >>The 'pineapple' motif appears in some textiles before I thought it could >actually have been discovered by the textile makers' cultures. If they >are doing pinecones, it makes sense to me. I was waiting for someone else to raise this but..... THEY AREN'T PINECONES AND THEY AREN'T PINEAPPLES, EITHER. The item you are describing in medieval textiles is not a pineapple, even though it looks like one. What appears to be a pineapple in European brocades in medieval through modern patterns is a stylized version of a motif from Ottoman Turkish textiles. In the medieval period, luxury textiles were produced in the Middle East, exported via the major Italian trading cities and distributed throughout Europe. Later, Italians began manufacturing similar textiles themselves but continued the use of Middle Eastern motifs (the M.E. textiles were of higher quality). What is the mystery fruit? It is a pomegranate. The bright red fruit containing many seeds is a symbol of fertility and wealth. Look at early depictions of European brocades, cut velvets, and early Middle Eastern textiles. They all contain the stylized pomegranate, as do many rugs. The pomegranate is an Old World plant. It figures in ancient Greek and M.E. folklore. It was well known throughout the Mediterranean area and was imported to Spain with the Arabs in the 8th century. That is why the motif appears so frequently in medieval textiles BEFORE the importation of pineapples. Sorry for length of post. Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:55:09 -0500 From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: Re: pineapple/PAISLEY > > Interesting! This makes sense. Isn't the paisley a stylized pine cone also? > > >From India? > > Yes......but, > Paisley is the the Scottish town which was the most prolific western > center of shawl manufacture. The name is now synonymous, to most of us, > with the stylized pine motif.> Whereas I'd always heard that the paisley shape came from using the human hand as a print block. (Curl your fingers slightly and use the outside, non-thumb, edge of your hand. Dip it in dye/ink, press on paper/fabric, and it sure looks like a paisley...) ***************************************************************************** Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:55:46 -0500 From: Susan Courney Subject: Re: pineapple/PAISLEY I thought the paisley pattern was a stylized cypress tree. But a quick web search produces: http://www.victoriana.com/library/paisley/shawl.html Which has a much more involved theory tracing it back to Babylonians and Date trees. The article does refer to it as a stylized pine in a cone shape (see page 2). Susan Courney (I'm sure I read that in a book a while back, but can't remember when or which one) > Interesting! This makes sense. Isn't the paisley a stylized pine cone also? > >From India? Yes......but, Paisley is the the Scottish town which was the most prolific western center of shawl manufacture. The name is now synonymous, to most of us, with the stylized pine motif. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:56:08 -0500 From: Tony Spence Subject: Re: Landsknecht Garb? In message <970316234917_1550859598@emout15.mail.aol.com> Gray Hunterwrote: > What wonderful styles they are too! Wild stuff. I hear the style comes from > honoring the triumphant return of Swiss(?) troops. Oh no! Don't let a Landsknecht hear you say that. The Landsknecht were German (the name translates into 'servant of the country') and were, on more than one occasion, on the opposite side to the Swiss. For an easy introduction with some nice pictures have a look at 'The Landsknechts' by Doug Miller and Gerry Embleton (Osprey Men-at-arms series No. 58, Osprey Publishing Ltd. 1976, ISBN 0-85045-258-9). For a readable if somewhat dated description of the Swiss pike and the German Landsknecht and Reiters, see 'A History of The Art of War in the Sixteenth Century' by Sir Charles Oman - first published in 1937 but reprinted in 1991 by both Greenhill Books (UK) and Presido Press (USA), ISBN 0-947898-69-7. Tho' victorious they were > in rags thus the slashing. Some good examples of this style are in the book > "Historic Costumes in Pictures" by Braun & Schneider [Dover 0-486-23150-X]. > Remember these etchings were done from 1861-1890 so they are indeed Victorian > interpretations but they are theatrically wonderful. I'd suggest making them > from leather if you're gonna do all that slashing....which you must. What little information I have on Landsknecht costume seems to indicate that leather was not a commonly used material for normal clothing - wool, velvet and silk being the most probable. > Also, > again not an accurate source, but Richard Burton wears one to his wedding in > Zefferelli's "Taming of the Shrew" [Yeah, the one w/ Liz]. Like I said, it's > a costume but a very effective one & probably the nearest thing to seeing a > real 3-d example in motion. -- Tony Spence ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:56:19 -0500 From: Gregory Stapleton Subject: Need suggestions for museums to visit Hi, Everyone, I've not been getting this mailing list for sometime, so I fear something has happened to my subscription. If you have any suggestions to offer, please send them to my email address, as well as to the list. My address is: gregsta@microsoft.com. My question is: Can anyone recommend museums in the UK where I can view garments dating from prior to 1601? The V&A is taken as a given. I'm looking for museums outside of London, please. :) I'm trying to put together a trip itinerary for late May of this year and want to hit as many costume collections as possible. With much thanks, Gregory G. Stapleton ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 16 Mar 1997 to 17 Mar 1997 **************************************************** From ???@??? Wed Mar 19 10:03:06 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA11076 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:26:54 +0100 Message-Id: <199703190526.AA11076@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <5.000E40A6@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 6:26:53 +0100 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 00:02:03 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 17 Mar 1997 to 18 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 17 messages totalling 367 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Mid Eighteenth Century Evening Wear 2. pineapple 3. Landsknecht Garb? (2) 4. Little Women (2) 5. Need suggestions for museums to visit (2) 6. Oil cloth & Waterproof clothing 7. pineapple/PAISLEY (2) 8. Ecclesiastical Embroidery 9. Need Elizabethan Corset advice 10. Pattern Drafting 11. Drawstring necks 12. sabots 13. Need copy of magazine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 07:44:56 -0500 From: Suzanne Hye Subject: Re: Mid Eighteenth Century Evening Wear In a message dated 97-03-14 12:13:58 EST, you write: << I am looking for a patterns during this time. >> I have a list of sources for costumers & reenactors. It contains many pattern sources. E-mail me for a copy. Suzanne Hye ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 07:44:52 -0500 From: Laurie Kittle Subject: Re: pineapple >Not strictly costume (not costume at all actually) - but does anyone know >the relevance of a pineapple on church textiles - ie vestments, altar >frontals etc.? We've found one on a pulpit drop in our local church in >Epsom, Surrey, but have no idea of why it is depicted. > What you see on the church textiles might not be a pineapple at all. Pre-19th century, what people assume is a pineapple is actually a pinecone (a classical symbol). Even though the pineapple was known to Europeans and Americans prior to the 19th century, there is no documentary evidence that anyone used the pineapple as a symbol of hospitality. They only ate them. Laurie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 07:45:13 -0500 From: Gray Hunter Subject: Re: Landsknecht Garb? In a message dated 97-03-17 19:06:21 EST, you write: << > What wonderful styles they are too! Wild stuff. I hear the style comes from > honoring the triumphant return of Swiss(?) troops. Oh no! Don't let a Landsknecht hear you say that. The Landsknecht were German (the name translates into 'servant of the country') and were, on more than one occasion, on the opposite side to the Swiss. >> Oops! Well at least I knew the Swiss had SOMETHING to do with it. After I posted the other night I looked it up myself & realized my error. I hope Germans everywhere will forgive my blunder. <> This is most likely but remember many fabrics then, especially wool, were woven more densely than now & would not have frayed as easily. [I could be wrong about this as well but I've seen period wools that are so spongy they simply do not fray at all] If you just slashed some fabrics today w/out finishing the slash somehow, you could end up w/ a big mess. Leather tends to "butch up" the outfit as well & of course looks great. I suppose it all depends on what effect one is aiming for & how accurate one wants to get......but then it always comes down to that, no? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 07:45:40 -0500 From: Greg & Jocelyn House Subject: Little Women I was wondering if members of the lists could comment on the accuracy of the costumes in the last version (directed by Gillian Armstrong) of Little Women. I loved this version, but as this isn't my period, have no idea of the overall accuracy, apart from the impression to the untrained eye of accuracy. Thanks. Jocelyn House Canberra, Australia email: house@macquarie.matra.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 07:45:44 -0500 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: Landsknecht Garb? >Some good examples of this style are in the book >"Historic Costumes in Pictures" by Braun & Schneider [Dover 0-486-23150-X]. >Remember these etchings were done from 1861-1890 so they are indeed Victorian >interpretations but they are theatrically wonderful. Actually they are redrawings of period examples. I've found all of the Landsknechte pictures in original sources. Felted wool also works very well for slashing. Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 07:45:52 -0500 From: "Diana H." Subject: Re: Need suggestions for museums to visit Gregory Stapleton wrote: > > Hi, Everyone, > My question is: Can anyone recommend museums in the UK where I can view > garments dating from prior to 1601? The V&A is taken as a given. I'm > looking for museums outside of London, please. :) I'm trying to put > together a trip itinerary for late May of this year and want to hit as > many costume collections as possible. > I am also planning a trip to the UK in 1998 and would love to have any responses to the above question either posted to the list or forwarded to me as well. Thanks in advance!! In the further pursuit of costume knowledge, Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 09:30:47 -0500 From: David Key Subject: Re: Oil cloth & Waterproof clothing > A friend of mine claimed oil cloth was around already in > medieval times but I feel quite sceptic about that. > Could someone tell me when oil cloth (that thick fabric treated > with oil, so it is waterproof) was invented and in what clothes > it was used before our time? I would also be very interested in any primary source information on this topic. In looking thorough c15th inventories I have found practically nothing that could be counted as a specifically 'waterproof' cloth for clothing. Leading me to think that waterproofing, such as it was, was limited to the natural waterproofing of closely woven, napped woollen cloth ... as is still used for alot of outdoor coats today. However ... there are occasional (very occasional) references to Waxed Linen. This MIGHT POSSIBLY be a waterproof cloth as it was used to provide covers for litters/waggons (can't remember exactly) The effect would be similar (presumably) to a waxed cotton coat like a Barbour. BUT ... I have NO evidence for this being used for ANY CLOTHING. Anyone with more info ? I'm always open to correction, suggestions etc. Cheers Dave The White Company (1450-1485) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 09:30:58 -0500 From: Scarlett Subject: Re: pineapple/PAISLEY > > Whereas I'd always heard that the paisley shape came from using the human > hand as a print block. (Curl your fingers slightly and use the outside, > non-thumb, edge of your hand. Dip it in dye/ink, press on paper/fabric, > and it sure looks like a paisley...) Not like any paisley I've ever seen! How do you get a teardrop shape with a pattern inside from your thumb? love'n'things... Anita xxxxx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:11:57 -0500 From: Catherine Kinsey Subject: Ecclesiastical Embroidery Regarding ecclesiastical blackwork/embroidery in England when Henry divied up the monasteries; the embroideries in the churches and monasteries were considered part of the loot that came with the land and buildings and were 'recycled' into domestic use. I can't site a source but my impression has always been that a lot of these went into bed hangings and may have been part of what started the popularity of these. Part of what I have enjoyed on this list is all the good information that appears here about costume books and resources. I've found some resources I wasn't aware of that have been very helpful, thanks folks!. This time I have a question to ask about an author; Norris, especially his later period work. Comments? (Can you tell I am researching Elizabethan :). Hi Linda!). Thanks in advance, Cat' ckinsey@kumc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:12:04 -0500 From: J & B Subject: Re: Little Women Jocelyn: I thought the costuming in "Little Women" was lovely,and authentic, even reflecting the changes from mid 1860s to late 1860s as the story progressed. The dancing, in addition, was quite good, although the galop was a bit old fashioned in the 1860s. Much of the furniture in the house, however, seemed to be late 19th century. Anyone else notice that? Bob Skiba ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:12:31 -0500 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Need Elizabethan Corset advice Diana H. wrote: > This works really well, by the way, if you have a pucker or are tempted to put in a dart > somewhere. You make a mock-up putting the darts in as necessary to get the fit right. > Then you leave the darts in and flatten out the fabric. Retrace onto another piece of > muslin or whatever and you can almost always create a pattern without darts/puckers! > This works very, very well for ladies who have *generous* bustlines! > Not always - I just made an 18th Century corset and the dart over the right breast had to stay in order to make the front bow correctly. And this was fitted by a *very* experienced costumer (not me!). I've had this problem on a couple of corsets and my right breast always seems to be the problem. Talk about lopsided! CArolyn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:12:35 -0500 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Need suggestions for museums to visit Gregory Stapleton wrote: > My question is: Can anyone recommend museums in the UK where I can view > garments dating from prior to 1601? The V&A is taken as a given. I'm > looking for museums outside of London, please. :) I'm trying to put > together a trip itinerary for late May of this year and want to hit as > many costume collections as possible. Try the costume museum at Bath - I've never been there personally but I hear it's terrific. CArolyn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:12:58 -0500 From: Anne Bannon Subject: Re: Pattern Drafting Hi, everyone! First I want to say thanks to everyone who responded so generously to my question on pattern drafting books. Secondly, someone e-mailed me privately with a request to forward any responses I got - and I got several very good ones, only while trying to delete some spam, I deleted her message as well. Would you please e-mail me again and I will forward all the responses I've saved? Thanks again, Anne Louise Bannon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:13:01 -0500 From: KATE M BUNTING Subject: Drawstring necks In my ignorance, the notion that drawstring necks on women's shifts are completely taboo for the 16th century is something quite new to me. Can any 17th century experts on the list confirm whether this is so for the 1640's, as Caroline suggested on March 7th? (I have been waiting to borrow a copy of the Cunningtons' "History of Underclothes", which does seem to imply that drawstrings were used by the mid 17th cent.) I ask because I have been wearing a drawsring shift to Sealed Knot events for nearly 20 years! Kate Bunting King's Lifeguar of Foote ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:13:12 -0500 From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: Re: pineapple/PAISLEY On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Scarlett wrote: > > Whereas I'd always heard that the paisley shape came from using the human > > hand as a print block. (Curl your fingers slightly and use the outside, > > non-thumb, edge of your hand. Dip it in dye/ink, press on paper/fabric, > > and it sure looks like a paisley...) > > Not like any paisley I've ever seen! How do you get a teardrop shape > with a pattern inside from your thumb? Language! It can be so hard to convey an image with words! I meant the pinkie side of your hand, not the thumb side. So the pinkie itself, slightly curled, forms the narrow, curved part of the paisley. Pretend you're holding a mug in your hand; the part of the hand parallel to the table is the part you'd print with. Does that make any better sense? ***************************************************************************** Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:13:18 -0500 From: Sue Toorans Subject: sabots If anyone will know it is this group. I live in California, U.S.A. and want to buy a pair of sabots to fit me. Does anyone know where I can do that? Before you have to ask, sabots are those wooden shoes worn by the Dutch. Yes, it is the root of the word "sabotage". The machinery of WW1 was not fond of having wooden shoes thrown in it. I doubt today's machinery would like it much, either. Sue I am *NOT* a rabid feminist! I had my shots last year. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:12:51 -0500 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Need copy of magazine I need a copy of the May 1906 _Delineator_ or a similar fashion magazine. An April or June 1906 issue might do. Specifically, I need the text of the fashion column or columns, describing styles, materials, dressmaking hints, accessories, etc. The _Delineator_ had such columns in addition to the patterns they were advertising throughout the magazine. I am willing to buy a copy of the magazine at the going rate, but since all I need is the fashion column a photocopy would do. This is for a new book I am starting. I'm not prepared to reveal the subject right now, but it is not anything anyone would be ashamed to be associated with. Fran Grimble Author of _After a Fashion: How to Reproduce, Restore, and Wear Vintage Styles_ ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 17 Mar 1997 to 18 Mar 1997 **************************************************** From ???@??? Mon Mar 24 10:19:17 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA18248 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 20 Mar 1997 06:26:11 +0100 Message-Id: <199703200526.AA18248@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <12.10C4C572@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 6:26:10 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 00:02:01 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 18 Mar 1997 to 19 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 22 messages totalling 611 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. [Fwd: [G@H] Book Alert! Book Alert!] 2. 19th Century Headwear (2) 3. Landsknecht Garb? 4. pineapple/PAISLEY (2) 5. question on pattern drafting (2) 6. Oil cloth & Waterproof clothing (2) 7. sabots 8. Theatrical Museums, anyone? 9. Need suggestions for museums to visit 10. sabots and slashed garments 11. Museums 12. Want a J.P Ryan pattern reveiw... 13. Doublets, 15:th C. 14. thanks for sabots 15. Waxing 16. New Hunnisett Book 17. Fw: linen canvas 18. stays ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:58:09 -0500 From: Felan Subject: [Fwd: [G@H] Book Alert! Book Alert!] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6B7440BC5F5E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thought you all would be intrested in this... Jenny --------------6B7440BC5F5E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >Return-Path: Received: from hobbes.UCSD.EDU (hobbes.ucsd.edu [132.239.50.27]) by franklin.cris.com (8.8.5/(97/03/03 3.23)) id RAA24509; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 17:29:16 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from hobbes.ucsd.edu by hobbes.UCSD.EDU (8.8.3/UCSDDIRECT.2) id OAA16371 to ; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 14:14:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 14:14:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703182213.RAA08276@smtp2.erols.com> Errors-To: wade@hobbes.ucsd.edu Reply-To: melunde@erols.com Originator: golden@hobbes.ucsd.edu Sender: golden@hobbes.ucsd.edu Precedence: bulk From: Mary Ellen Lunde To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [G@H] Book Alert! Book Alert! X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0b -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: ALL messages are Copyright the original author - no redistribution without explicit permission The Good News!!!! Just heard on the news that Barnes and Noble opened a website for selling books. The Better News!!! In response www.amazon.com (to date the largest book seller on the internet) has dropped their prices 40%. Haven't visited there yet. Wanted to let all of you now ASAP!!!! Mary Ellen near Washington DC Bo - Mom, buy some more of those books that have doggie food recommendations in them, OK?????? (Princess) Pooter - With all the money you save, Mom, you can buy me filet mignon for dinner, OK?????????? --------------6B7440BC5F5E-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:58:18 -0500 From: Kimberly Burnette Subject: 19th Century Headwear Anyone have any sources of information as to what women in the time period from 1845-1855 would have worn on their heads? Would they have worn some type of bonnet while inside the house? Would just plain straw hats (round farmer looking hats) be appropriate for a farm woman working in the field? Thanks Kimberly burnette@roanoke.infi.net Roanoke, Virginia, USA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:58:22 -0500 From: Tony Spence Subject: Re: Landsknecht Garb? In message <970317213721_953607987@emout12.mail.aol.com> Gray Hunter wrote: > ... but remember many fabrics then, especially wool, were > woven more densely than now & would not have frayed as easily. [I could be > wrong about this as well but I've seen period wools that are so spongy they > simply do not fray at all] If you just slashed some fabrics today w/out > finishing the slash somehow, you could end up w/ a big mess. Leather tends to > "butch up" the outfit as well & of course looks great. I suppose it all > depends on what effect one is aiming for & how accurate one wants to > get......but then it always comes down to that, no? > > My period of interest is a little later (late 16th - early 18th century northern European), but slashing of fabric was still fashionable, at least during the first half of the period. I have seen examples of slashed silks, although a more common slash-like effect appears to have been to 'prick' the fabric, leaving a row of very small holes, or possibly to remove a few threads from a section the warp or weft to give the impression of slashing. Late 16th and early 17th century wools appear to have been much more heavily felted than modern materials and could take slashes without fraying (although I hazzard to guess that they DID fray over time. It's just that the few surviving examples tend to be high quality clothes which show few signs of wear and, of course, the portraits only show relatively wealthy people dressed to impress. -- Tony Spence ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:58:25 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Re: pineapple/PAISLEY In a message dated 97-03-18 09:45:10 EST, you write: << Not like any paisley I've ever seen! >> Use the curledd side of your hand on the little finger side not the thumb side The resulting pattern is then embellished with a brush. Lord Ras (Uduido@aol.com) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:58:38 -0500 From: No Name Subject: question on pattern drafting I sent out a request quite sometime ago for sources for a pattern drafting program for the computer because I had seen a couple of postings with questions conserning this type of program. I have recieved no information as of this post. So I thought I'd ask again for information on pattern drafting programs for the computer. Surely, the one's that have them know where they got them. :-) Lord Ras (Uduido@aol.com) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:59:04 -0500 From: David Brewer Subject: Re: Oil cloth & Waterproof clothing In message <199703181253.HAA11829@cs.brown.edu> david_key@VNET.IBM.COM writes: (regarding waterproofed cloths) > However ... there are occasional (very occasional) references to > Waxed Linen. This MIGHT POSSIBLY be a waterproof cloth as it was > used to provide covers for litters/waggons (can't remember exactly) > The effect would be similar (presumably) to a waxed cotton coat > like a Barbour. BUT ... I have NO evidence for this being used > for ANY CLOTHING. Oh, yes you do. Tenuously, I might add. Very tenuously. It cropped up in the jesseraint/iazerant/gestraunt/geston thread on soc.history.medieval in which the question of the nature of this type of armour was kicked around, and we were among the kickers. I recall you started it off. I assume we're counting cloth armours as clothing. References I have read that refer to the Burgundian Ordinances (note the degree of removal there) describe the use of waxed linen in cloth armour. I've never come across a complete transcription or even a complete translation of these, more's the pity. I'd like to see if the linen/ waxed linen/mail protection can be interpreted as a single armour, much like the cloth/mail gestraunt in the Howard Household Books. But I fear this armour waffle is straying from the mailing list's topic. Suffice to say that this a vague suggestion of waxed linen being used for clothing, and no more or less than that. -- David Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:59:12 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: pineapple/PAISLEY In a message dated 97-03-18 09:45:07 EST, LAW4AXG7@novell4.bham.ac.uk (Scarlett) writes: > > Not like any paisley I've ever seen! How do you get a teardrop shape > with a pattern inside from your thumb? > l Actually, she was describing the non-thumb side of her hand. But you may have noticed the thumbprint often resembles a paisley MaggiRos ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:59:25 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: sabots In a message dated 97-03-18 16:32:11 EST, suetoo@svpal.org (Sue Toorans) writes: > > If anyone will know it is this group. I live in California, U.S.A. > and want to buy a pair of sabots to fit me. Does anyone know where I > can do that? > California is kind of a big place. But have you tried Solvang? I know I know, it's Danish, not Dutch, but they have a Scottish shop there, so there's no telling. My Flemish grandparents had some, but I failed to collect them before they (the grandparents) passed away. Sigh. Who knew. MaggiRos ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:59:29 -0500 From: "Gwyn A. Carnegie" Subject: Re: Oil cloth & Waterproof clothing > > A friend of mine claimed oil cloth was around already in > > medieval times but I feel quite sceptic about that. > > Could someone tell me when oil cloth (that thick fabric treated > > with oil, so it is waterproof) was invented and in what clothes > > it was used before our time? > > I would also be very interested in any primary source information on > this topic. > > In looking thorough c15th inventories I have found practically nothing > that could be counted as a specifically 'waterproof' cloth for > clothing. Leading me to think that waterproofing, such as it was, was > limited to the natural waterproofing of closely woven, napped woollen > cloth ... as is still used for alot of outdoor coats today. > > However ... there are occasional (very occasional) references to > Waxed Linen. This MIGHT POSSIBLY be a waterproof cloth as it was > used to provide covers for litters/waggons (can't remember exactly) > The effect would be similar (presumably) to a waxed cotton coat > like a Barbour. BUT ... I have NO evidence for this being used > for ANY CLOTHING. > Anyone with more info ? I'm always open to correction, suggestions etc. > Cheers > Dave > The White Company (1450-1485) When I think of water-proof clothing, the first thing that comes to mind are the 1590's mud soaks- which I remember someone telling me that they were sealed inside with pitch or tar for slogging through the low countries. Look through De Gheyn for men with "extra socks". The next thing I thought of was the spanish hooded cloak in Arnold. She says that the material is very course, thick and curly. She does not mention it being slick or coated. Could the wool have been spun & woven "in the grease"? If I wanted something that was going to be water-proof without using wax or pitch- that's how I'd do it. Yes - you'd smell like a wet sheep but I think that would be preferable to smelling like a barge;-) Hmm...that sort of leads back to the soap & fabric finishing topic which has a load of questions attached to it, like will the fatty acids in lanolin affect the permeability of the dyes (vat or otherwise)? What colors could you get because of the flavanoids or anthroquinons being "resistant"? What about the mordants themselves? What about streaking since post 1100 dyeing techniques call for dyeing the finished cloth and not "dyeing in the wool"? Liles talks about these issues but the dyes are post 1650. Any organic chemists out there? Cheers; Gwyn Carnegie (vigorously engaging in "paper" avoidance") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:59:36 -0500 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Theatrical Museums, anyone? I'm passing on a request from a very dear friend of mine who is currently enrolled in a musuem certificate program at Harvard. She's very interested in finding a job after graduation at a theater museum or something like that with a similar emphasis on theater/opera/film. Does anyone out there know if any theater museums in the US? I think she might also be willing to go to the UK or Australia if she can. Any leads you can pass along would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 06:59:42 -0500 From: EowynA@aol.com Subject: Re: Need suggestions for museums to visit Hi! For costume museums outside London, I suggest the costume museum in Bath -- it is wonderful, large, roomy, filled with clothing, a few going back to pre-1600, but most of it after then. Also, try Platt Hall in Manchester. It is a small museum in a park with a large collection of clothing. They had a ruff from the early 1600s on display when I went in 1990. There is also quite a bit of embroidery on display at the Castle Museum in Nottingham. I heard it was great from my travelling companions -- I went to the Robin Hood Experience myself. But now I want to go back and see the embroidery. Have fun! Melinda (EowynA@aol.com) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:35:30 -0500 From: Teri Simonds Subject: Re: sabots and slashed garments Amazon Drygoods lists wooden shoes in their Shoe Catalog, in all sizes for children and adult (plus doll sizes from Barbie to Cabbage Patch!), with prices ranging from $2.95 to 37.95. Their address and phone number is: Amazon Drygoods 2218 E. 11th St. Davenport, IA 52803-3760 (tel) (319)322-6800 (fax) (319)322-4003 And, regarding slashed garments, the most "recommended" method when I was in the SCA 10-15 years ago, was to use a sharp, very hot knife. The theory behind this is that the heat will cause the ends of the fabric to slightly melt, thus effectively preventing fraying. This would work with fabric that contains synthetic fibers, but I don't know how effective it would be on natural fibers. Any comments? Teri S. teri_simonds@sterling.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: sabots Author: Sue Toorans at INTERNET Date: 3/18/97 5:58 PM If anyone will know it is this group. I live in California, U.S.A. and want to buy a pair of sabots to fit me. Does anyone know where I can do that? Before you have to ask, sabots are those wooden shoes worn by the Dutch. Yes, it is the root of the word "sabotage". The machinery of WW1 was not fond of having wooden shoes thrown in it. I doubt today's machinery would like it much, either. Sue I am *NOT* a rabid feminist! I had my shots last year. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 14:36:00 -0500 From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Museums Geoffrey asked about Museums to visit in England - this has been discussed before so should be in the archives (wherever they are!). Off the top of my head, Bath for the Museum of Costume; Nottingham - not the lace museum but one of the others just down from the castle has a collection of late 16th century blackwork; and the Mary Rose in Portsmouth - shoes, leather jerkins and lots of accessories, but not a lot of actual fabric survived (although this includes a fragment of a check wool shirt in red and yellow - makes my heart sink!). Hope this helps. With reference to Kate Bunting's question about drawstring necklines - the friends who said that they were absent from the 17th century as well as earlier are members of the Sealed Knot! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:15:20 -0500 From: hanna larsson Subject: Want a J.P Ryan pattern reveiw... Hi all! I'm thinking of ordering a J.P Ryan pattern called "1770's Gentlemen's coat", but first I would like to know if anyone can give me an opinion on it. -Hanna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:16:17 -0500 From: hanna larsson Subject: Doublets, 15:th C. Hello out there! I've read in several books that doublets during the 15:th century (and earlier) were padded, (or rather that it looks like they are). Now I'm wondering, what are the original sources to support this fact? I would also like to know how they were padded! Did they really build up the chests as much as you might think from looking at contemporary artwork, or is it all just idealization? -Hanna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:16:29 -0500 From: Sue Toorans Subject: thanks for sabots Thanks to all of you for the wealth if information on where to get sabots and where to find information on what they have looked like though time. I knew I could count on this list. And I had thought the correct shoes was going to be the dificult part of the costume. Back to my spinning... Sue I am *NOT* a rabid feminist! I had my shots last year. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:16:37 -0500 From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Waxing This isn't waterproofing, *but* there are references in Arnold to using wax on clothing. She definitely refers to using wax to fix the figure of 8s in ruffs, and I have a feeling there's a reference to wax being used on the edges of slashes to stop them fraying (don't quote me on that last one). Don't underestimate the water-repelling powers of well-felted wool. I've got a cloak I've only managed to *soak* once - out for at least 3 hours in a Lake District downpour (don't ask why - the words "honeymoon", "fishing" and "Lake District" should never be used together) and even then my clothes underneath were not that wet. Mind you, it weighed a ton and took forever to dry out. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:17:06 -0500 From: Glenna Jo & Bill Christen Subject: Re: 19th Century Headwear Kimberly Burnette wrote: > > Anyone have any sources of information as to what women in the time period > from 1845-1855 would have worn on their heads? Would they have worn some > type of bonnet while inside the house? Would just plain straw hats (round > farmer looking hats) be appropriate for a farm woman working in the field? By all indications women in this period kept their head covered in some way almost all the time. Fabric caps of various styles rather than bonnets were worn indoors. The styles changed over this 10 year period. I can't give great detail on these changes as this is just a bit before "my" time period. It is my understanding that full, tie under the chin with ruffles at the side white caps definitely were still being worn at least at the beginning of this period. They tended to shrink over time until they essentially disappeared by the '60's except on old women. Breakfast, or morning caps and dinner caps were still being shown in the fashion pages of ladies' magazines in the '60's, but day caps disappeared except for 2 examples throughout the period of 1860-'65. If you're interested, I can give you a more detailed explanation of the differences between these various styles. As for outdoor wear, I can't say round straw hats would not have been worn since I haven't researched this area, but I feel very comfortable saying that corded &/or slat bonnets would very likely have been worn, at least by the '50's and well beyond. Sun bonnets were ubiquitous for informal &/or outdoor work wear throughout at least the second half of the 19th century. (I will leave the 1st half to others far more knowledgeable than myself!) I hope this was at least of some help. Let me know if you need more details. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@rust.net Visit The Curiosity Shop! http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:17:09 -0500 From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Re: question on pattern drafting >I sent out a request quite sometime ago for sources for a pattern drafting >program for the computer because I had seen a couple of postings with >questions conserning this type of program. I have recieved no information as >of this post. So I thought I'd ask again for information on pattern drafting >programs for the computer. Surely, the one's that have them know where they >got them. :-) > >Lord Ras (Uduido@aol.com) I, too, was once interested in computer patterndrafting programs until I started to research them. I found that the only good and reasonabley prices ones were for IBMS and we have Macs here at work. Some of the manufacturers have gone out of business already. But going thru my old info I collected, I found the following names, which may be helpful: ApparelCAD Software, POB 2883, Mississippi State, MS 39762 Pattern Works International, 307 Lakewood, SE E. Grand Rapids, MI 49506 PAD System Technologies, in Montreal at 514 939 4430 (This is used in the garment industry and is quite pricey, but for Macs) Custom Patternmaking, 310 423-0189 or 310 599-2230 Cadterns, Custom Clothing Inc., 1500 Merklin St., #104, White Rock, BC Canada V4B 4C5 If anyone on this list is familiar with any of these programs, I would still be interested to hear what they think of them. Everyone I know who has tried computer patternmaking says it takes so long to learn that they haven't really had the time to do it properly. Good luck. Sylvia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:17:39 -0500 From: aleed Subject: New Hunnisett Book Has anyone had a chance to check out Jean Hunnisett's new book "Period Costume for Stage and Screen: Medieval-1500? I really want to get it, but was wondering what it was like. Drea ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:17:56 -0500 From: Cathy Johnson Subject: Fw: linen canvas Thought you might be interested in this--I can't believe it didn't occur to me. (Can't trust a darned watercolorist, anyway.) Regards Kate From: Steve Crawford > To: revwar > Subject: Re: linen canvas > Date: Wednesday, March 19, 1997 6:27 PM > > For what it's worth, if anyone is searching for 100% linen canvas, I > stumbled upon an abundant supply quite accidentally one day while browsing a > Syracuse artist's supply store (with oil painting supplies, used by those > who stretch and frame their own canvases). It is sold by the yard and comes > off a roll probably 50 or so inches wide. If I remember correctly, it runs > around 12 - 13 bucks a yard, but it was well worth it to me. I made a > haversack with it that looks fantastic, soon to start a pair of full length > gaiters. It's a wonderful light brown color, and is tough as all get-out. A > caveat though, beware of the "primed" linen canvas, it is impregnated with > an acrylic substance. Make sure it's unprimed. > > -- > Yours, > > Stephen J. Crawford > 15th Regt. Albany Co. Militia (BVMA) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:18:00 -0500 From: Cathy Johnson Subject: stays I am looking to buy a pair of really old, ratty, stained or even ripped (*preferably* ripped :-)) 18th C. working stays. Size is no object; they're not for wear but for effect. Contact at address below, and thanks-- Regards, Kate ); Fri, 21 Mar 1997 07:08:48 +0100 Message-Id: <199703210608.AA25558@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <2.2F845D59@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 7:08:48 +0100 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:02:44 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 19 Mar 1997 to 20 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 16 messages totalling 500 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Ecclesiastical Embroidery 2. sabots and slashed garments (2) 3. New Hunnisett Book 4. question on pattern drafting (3) 5. sabots (2) 6. fichu shape - 1779 or so (2) 7. Drawstring necks 8. 19th Century Headwear 9. Doublets C15th 10. Doublets, 15:th C. 11. Slashing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 09:57:40 -0500 From: Jafath@aol.com Subject: Re: Ecclesiastical Embroidery In a message dated 97-03-18 16:20:27 EST, ckinsey@kumc.edu (Catherine Kinsey) writes: << the embroideries in the churches and monasteries were considered part of the loot that came with the land and buildings and were 'recycled' into domestic use. I can't site a source but my impression has always been that a lot of these went into bed hangings and may have been part of what started the popularity of these. >> Actually, the traffic seems to have been both ways at one time or another -- Mary QofS gave her some of her old gowns to the church to make vestments and paraments. The large-scale patterns and stiff fabrics went well for both uses. (I researched a lot of ecclesiastical fabrics at one time -- can't find a bit of the work, now!) Jo Anne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 09:57:44 -0500 From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: sabots and slashed garments > And, regarding slashed garments, the most "recommended" method when > I was in the SCA 10-15 years ago, was to use a sharp, very hot > knife. Its a nice theory, but I've found that an exacto with a fresh blade works the best and gives you the most control. Its very hard to get a standard knife razor sharp, and since I normally slash wool or leather, the idea of heat melting threads would not apply. I've done quite a bit of slashing and don't feel that a standard knife would give me the fine control of the slashes that is needed. I think I would just get a lot of small burns on my fingers if I tried to heat a blade hot enough to melt anything... Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 09:57:37 -0500 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: New Hunnisett Book aleed wrote: > > Has anyone had a chance to check out Jean Hunnisett's new book "Period > Costume for Stage and Screen: Medieval-1500? I really want to get it, > but was wondering what it was like. > > Drea Buy it. Definitely worth the cash. Hunisett has apparently discovered her audience among the recreationist groups and has included in this books notes about what is and isn't period for a particular style (at least according to Hunnisett). Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 09:57:49 -0500 From: Leslie Todd Subject: Re: question on pattern drafting ---------- > >I sent out a request quite sometime ago for sources for a pattern drafting > >program for the computer because I had seen a couple of postings with > > > >Lord Ras (Uduido@aol.com) > I, too, was once interested in computer patterndrafting programs until I > started to research them. I haven't used any of these programs, but a number of programs are reviewed in The Needlecrafter's Computer Companion by Judy Heim. I believe that portions of this book are on-line but I don't have a URL. Also one of the sewing magazines, probably Threads or Sew News reviewed a bunch of the programs not too long ago. Sorry I don't remember the magazine. None of the magazine reviews were glowing though so I decided not to try any of the programs until later (when the technology gets better.) These programs were all for the home sewer. Leslie lesliet@webwide.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:10:18 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: sabots and slashed garments > > > And, regarding slashed garments, the most "recommended" method when > > I was in the SCA 10-15 years ago, was to use a sharp, very hot > > knife. > For short cuts and "pinks", I've always had the best luck with a sharp chisel. It sits right on the line you've marked, and a smart smack with a leather mallet does the trick. For long slashes, a rotary cutter is perfect, since it doesn't drag against leather. If using fabric, frankly, scissors are fine. MaggiRos Mairghread-Ros FitzGarret of Desmond, O.L. (Caid) Mary Countess of Southampton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:10:21 -0500 From: Roxann Barber Subject: Re: sabots > In a message dated 97-03-18 16:32:11 EST, suetoo@svpal.org (Sue Toorans) > writes: > > > > > If anyone will know it is this group. I live in California, U.S.A. > > and want to buy a pair of sabots to fit me. Does anyone know where I > > can do that? > > If you can go mail order I would suggest getting on the Web and searching Holland, Michigan. There should be some leads, as the dancers wear these at the annual Dutch Tulip Festival. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:10:23 -0500 From: Roxann Barber Subject: Re: question on pattern drafting No Name wrote: > > I sent out a request quite sometime ago for sources for a pattern drafting > program for the computer because I had seen a couple of postings with > questions conserning this type of program. I have recieved no information as > of this post. So I thought I'd ask again for information on pattern drafting > programs for the computer. Surely, the one's that have them know where they > got them. :-) > > Lord Ras (Uduido@aol.com) I use a program called PC Pattern which is an add on to AutoCad. You must have both programs to use it but it is then a full scale drafting/engineering program with apparel tools, symbols and sloper libraries as well as special commands for flat pattern manipulation. If you are interested e-mail me and I will give you names and addresses. Be warned that a full drafting program takes time to learn to move around in proficiently. Roxy Barber ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:10:26 -0500 From: Deb Subject: fichu shape - 1779 or so To other 1775/1779 or so people: what shape does one use to cut a fichu or neckerchief? I've always used a large square; usually about 24" on a side. Then I fold it in half diagonally. This yields excess fabric in folds at the back of the neck, but I've tolerated it. For a diaphonous fancy fichu, thugh -- is there a better shape? For which there is documentation? It seems that one could cut the square in two, on that diagonal, and lose half of the fabric. One might also scoop away some of the fabric on the long diagonal edge of the triangle, so that even less was bunching up at the neck. You'd have sort of a boomerang shape. -- does this yield the result I'm envisioning? (less back-of-neck-bunchup, and a look like the paintings) -- is this a period shape? <===============================================================> < Deb Baddorf Fermilab, MS220 Arthurian,Inkling,&Regency fan baddorf@fnal.gov PO Box 500 Costumer, RevWar re-enactor Batavia, IL 60510 Computational Lexicography ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:10:34 -0500 From: TEDDY Subject: Re: Drawstring necks > Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 16:13:01 -0500 > From: KATE M BUNTING > Subject: Drawstring necks > In my ignorance, the notion that drawstring necks on women's shifts > are completely taboo for the 16th century is something quite new > to me. Can any 17th century experts on the list confirm whether > this is so for the 1640's, I ask because I have been > wearing a drawsring shift to Sealed Knot events for nearly 20 > years! NO FLAMES PLEASE, PERSONAL OPINION ONLY! I have not *yet* been convinced that drawstrings were not used in these periods. I have read with interest the arguements about the subject and looked at (*some* of) the pictures that have been used to illustrate the arguements for and against. As far as I can see, a lot of them can be interpreted either way. Evenness of the gathers doesn't, necessaritly, indicate they *must* be sewn in place. It's just as possible that they were neatly arranged to begin with. I tend to think along these lines. Sitting for a portrait is not going to allow for much movement to disrupt the carefully arranged folds of your garment, and you'd tweak before posing because you want to be represented at your best....and so on. I have seen, and worn, drawstring chemises that kept their even gathers while being worn and have noticed that in some of the illustrative puctures the gathers aren't all that even anyway. Some of them look like drawstrings to me, and a lot can be interpreted either way. As far as I'm concerned, no one can say for sure. None of us were there when the portraits and pictures were painted, all we can say is what it looks like to each of us individually. Also, *both* may be true, some people wore sewn gathers, some people wore drawstrings. Either way, if using a drawstring produces a garment that looks like one in a picture, it can't be *proved* it isn't a drawstring in the picture and *you* prefer to have the ease of adjustability of using a drawstring, then go for it. Teddy teddy1@mdx.ac.uk ====================== Bibliographical Services Dept. * If a costume's worth * Middlesex University * making, it's worth * Bounds Green Road * making well enough * London, N11 2NQ * for every-day wear. * England ====================== Tel No.(0181) 362 6405 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:10:40 -0500 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: 19th Century Headwear : > > Kimberly Burnette wrote: > > > > Anyone have any sources of information as to what women in the time period > > from 1845-1855 would have worn on their heads? Would they have worn some > > type of bonnet while inside the house? Would just plain straw hats (round > > farmer looking hats) be appropriate for a farm woman working in the field? We have a book entitled THE LADIES' SELF INSTRUCTOR IN MILLINERY & MANTUA MAKING... (1853) by millinery they do not mean what we would call "hats" they show and have instructions for "straw bonnets" "morning and house caps" "head dress". This is a reprint of the original. I publish, but do not sell, books. I believe that the price is $14.95 + shipping. For more information you would have to contact the distributor: Fred Struthers fsbks@mcn.org ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:10:43 -0500 From: David Key Subject: Re: Doublets C15th Hanna A best can do response ... I'll try & 'pad' it out once I have a moment & can get at my refs ... so forgive the frailty/vaguries of my memory I'd like to try & pin down what you mean by c15th. I know that sounds mad but the doublet of 1400 was significantly different to that of 1450 which in turn was different to that of 1500. DO you also have any particular region (Flanders, France, England, Italy ?) in mind as that will also make a big difference. Anyway ... padding? My personal take is that the majority of doublets (& I specifically exclude Doublets of Fence before Dave B. picks me up on the armour angle again) were NOT padded, stuffed or otherwise bulked out ... in the body. Sleeves are a different issue & I'll come to these later. So where do the books all get the idea of padding? Personally in Northern European paintings I can't think of any illustrations of the mid C15th (c.1430-c1485) which could really be said to 'show' padding in the chest ... but I'm always open to correction. So it's worth looking at the written sources. Wardrobe accounts certainly occasionally do include phrases like 'and stuff' when describing the materials required to make the doublets. However it is more likely that in this context the 'stuff' is not stuffing to create a padded effect but stuff in the most generic sense ... meaning 'and everything else' ... ie. thread, braid, lining, interlining, points etc. i.e. 'the rest of the stuff I need'. The fact that this might also include bolsters or stuffing as well is incidental. This is all conjecture, but where detailed descriptions of the materials do exist (e.g. in some of Edward IV's wardrobe accounts) the only materials listed are an outer, a lining and occasionally an interlining. There is however one fairly big problem with all of the above. Edward IV's Sumptuary Act of 1463 (3 Ed IV c.5) which does mention padded doublets in relation to the clothes which those of the rank of Yeoman and below could not wear ... "... nor wear in Array for his Body, any Bolsters nor stuffing of Wool, Cotton, nor Cadas, nor stuffing in his Doublet, but only lining according to the same." Usually this is interpreted to mean the chest was stuffed ... but as you can see this is not what it says. That doublets were stuffed is clear .... however how or where is another matter altogether. The upper arms of many fashionable doublets of the mid c15th are clearly puffed and almost certainly padded. This padding is vital in achieving the raised puffed sleeves of the fashionable mens gown as it pushed the shoulder up & out. Numerous Manuscript illustrations & some of the Flemish portraits show this puffed sleeve under the gown when the gown sleeve has been slashed This is where a lot of modern reconstructions of gowns fail, in my opinion at any rate, as they pad the gown rather than the doublet beneath. Some padding in the shoulders of gowns does also seem to have been practiced, as shown by the Quote above ... and occasional literary refs. (Incl Piers Plowman & Chaucer if I recall ... though this is earlier than the discussion here). What were they padded with... probably with tow, wool or cotton as mentioned above (note I do mean cotton & not cotoned woollen cloth as raw cotton was imported precisely for this purpose) but there are refs to all sorts of good & bad practices in padding (matresses as well as clothing) which range from moss to hay and cabbage (rags/offcuts) to 'cats tails' (Catkins from tree before there is a howl of disgust). By the way I can't think for the life of me what 'Cadas' is ... any suggestions / clarification ??? A final word of caution before you take illustrative sources too literally ... there is a surviving c14th Jupon (I think the article on it is in an old edition of 'Costume') which has the classic pigeon chest and wasp waist ... if ever something looked like it HAD to be padded this was it ... problem is ... it wasn't. This lead to the writer querying whether an additional pad was worn underneath the jupon to provide the necessary bulk. I don't know for sure ... but there are more garments in the c15th wardrobe than doublet & gown. A commonly shown article covers the chest from throat to waist and is worn over the doublet ... whether this is a stomacher (rather than the smaller abdomen covering insert worn underneath the doublet (eg. in Memlinc) a peticote or whatever I'm not sure ... suggestions greatly appreciated). This would be easy to pad and create the effect of a padded chest. With the exception of the 1463 Act of Edward IV I can't remember any other refs which explicitly mention padding doublets. I'd be VERY interested in any others may have (p.s. primary source not costume books please). Hope this helps Cheers, Dave The White Company (1450-1485) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:03:17 -0500 From: Sue & Ted Subject: Re: sabots > If you can go mail order I would suggest getting on the Web and > searching Holland, Michigan. There should be some leads, as the dancers > wear these at the annual Dutch Tulip Festival. When we were there 6 years ago, 3 different companies sold them. Some were made here, others overseas. I remember one co definitely did mailorder but never persued it. We each bought a pair there. Sue H ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:03:28 -0500 From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Re: Doublets, 15:th C. >Hello out there! > >I've read in several books that doublets during the 15:th century (and >earlier) were padded, (or rather that it looks like they are). Now I'm >wondering, what are the original sources to support this fact? >I would also like to know how they were padded! Did they really build up >the chests as much as you might think from looking at contemporary >artwork, or is it all just idealization? > >-Hanna I thought perhaps you were referring to the peascod bellied doublets of the 16 th century. Yes? No? Sylvia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:03:31 -0500 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Slashing About slashing: It's usually not desirable, from an accuracy standpoint, to finish the edges of slashing, although you may have a hard time convincing people of it. I once showed a work in progress to a friend who was going to be one of the judges for the competition I was entering. He took one look at the all-over herringboned slash pattern on the brocade baby robe and said "You ARE going to finish those edges, aren't you?" Obviously, I made sure he took a close look at Janet Arnold before he left my sewing room. I also use a sharp exacto blade to cut slashes. The one with the curved blade works well for me as I can "roll" into a cut. I use a small leather drive punch for holes. Any fairly tightly woven fabric works well. You just have to remember to plan your design so that the slashes end up on the bias. Very large slashes, over 2", need to be in a stiff, dense fabric. You also have to be very careful wearing them because they are easy to catch on things. Round holes should be very small, 1/8" at most. They will fray some, but if you look at the pictures in Arnold, that was part of the look. I made a jerkin for a three year old boy out of heavy cotton sheeting and embellished it all over with tiny pinks and slashes. I also edged it with bias cut "empty piping" and snipped the piping at 1/4" intervals after it was made. It looked terrific, and held up to small boy abuse and frequent washing very well. And it only took an hour to add the decoration. I wish more people would use this kind of embellishment on middle class costumes, instead of yards and yards of innacurate purchased trim. Margo Anderson P.S. Yes, I know a three year old should really be in a shift and biggins, not jerkin and breeches, but this is an *enormous* child, taller than the two five year olds on our block. It was also a potty training incentive: we told him if he was trained by faire, he could wear a big boy costume like daddy and not a baby shift like his brother. It (among other methods) worked. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:03:38 -0500 From: Gray Hunter Subject: Re: fichu shape - 1779 or so You got it. Your procedure & resulting shapes sound right for the effect you want but of course you can always mock it up to be sure. Having said this let me say I don't think it's accurate at all to shape a fichu too much. The costly diaphanous &/or embroidered fabrics would not have been snipped at. A square, rectangle or triangle is the period correct shape. The bulk is part of the look really. Look at some of the examples in "The Revolution In Fashion 1715-1815". You can see how bulky & bunchy it gets....to good effect IMHO. I suppose a lace fichu could be made up in a shape as it would be truly expensive & you'd want not to waste lace on "bulk". I don't believe they were called "fichus" during the period but "Neck-kerchiefs" which implies, to me, a square shape. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:04:27 -0500 From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: Re: question on pattern drafting I can back this up w/some practical hands-on. The University of Cincinnati bought the Symetry program. A mess. Needs to be extensively re-written. I have heard that the fashion industr uses one called MODA Drape. Any one know of it? Kel ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 19 Mar 1997 to 20 Mar 1997 **************************************************** From ???@??? Wed Mar 26 11:15:21 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA23986 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 26 Mar 1997 08:55:11 +0100 Message-Id: <199703260755.AA23986@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <8.DFF966D4@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 8:55:10 +0100 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 00:01:55 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 20 Mar 1997 to 25 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 41 messages totalling 1375 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Dress manikins 2. fichu shape - 1779 or so (5) 3. Ecclesiastical Embroidery 4. Drawstring necks (3) 5. 19th Century Headwear 6. Doublets C15th 7. FWD: Sleeves 8. slashing 9. question on pattern drafting 10. Sew Beautiful 11. 1870's Birtish Army Uniform 12. Wearing Black Velvet Question (2) 13. cadas, and infant's clothes question (2) 14. Cavalier Hats 15. 5-6th c. China 16. Oilcloths origins 17. Padded doublets 18. Janet Arnold's bibliography 19. j. arnold's biblio part 2 20. pattern 21. Summer Renaissance Dance Workshop in San Francisco Area 22. New Hunnisett Book 23. about a cloak 24. Fichu questions 25. Pattern Drafting Programs 26. messages? 27. French & Indian War Clothing Sources? 28. list back open 29. Raphael Portrait of Joanna of Aragon 30. Some additions to Godey's Lady's Book web 31. wearing of black velvet 32. FWD: F.I.T. PATTERN COURSE 33. Black Velvet- thankyou ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:20:12 -0500 From: Bill Gillette Subject: Dress manikins Hello! I'm trying to locate dress manikins (pre-1920) as a gift for my wife to display her collection of vintage wedding gowns. Can you help me in any way? I live in the Washington DC area. Thanks. Bill Gillette ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:20:23 -0500 From: Ken & Dianne Tidy Subject: Re: fichu shape - 1779 or so At 02:10 PM 3/20/97 -0500, Deb wrote: >To other 1775/1779 or so people: what shape does one use to >cut a fichu or neckerchief? Dear Deb, All of your ideas are correct to the period. Some handkerchiefs measure 36" square. (Before someone tells me that the looms are not that wide - yes, imported cottons could be 36" wide.) Few of the plainer common style survived (unless you are around Berks, Lancaster, or Montgomery County, PA.) I have also seen half-handkerchiefs, cut on the diagonal. Many, many elegant shaped handkerchiefs. These seem to survive in great numbers because of the elegant embroidery. For photos and descriptions of styles with measurements see "An Elegant Art, Fashion and Fantasy in the 18th Century", LACMA. They list several 18th century fichu including triangular, rectangular, square, shaped, and cross-over from their collection. (Their square fichu measures 36-1/2" x 37-1/2".) See also the color plates in "Revolution in Fashion" The Kyoto Costume Institute. Look it up, Dianne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:20:27 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: Re: Ecclesiastical Embroidery Cat, and other embroiderers, Meant to get back to you sooner. I like, as an embroidery source, a book by Marie Schuette. It's quite an old book, and very hard to find. It contains black & white photo plates of existing pieces of needlework. She gives the colors and the stitches used in each piece. Unfortunately, not long ago, I redid all my copy notebooks, rearranging them for different projects. I can't find the title page of her book. It is listed in another bibliography as Schuette, M. and Miller, C.S., _Pictorial History of Embroidery_, London, 1950. Took me a while to track it down. Should be required reading for all historical re-creators. There's another one, Nevinson, J.L., _Catalogue of English Domestic Embroidery_, London, 1950. This is also good, and may have the woman's coif in it. I have a zerox of a coif, and a man's cap, and the only notation on them is 'Bath' which may mean the originals were in the museum in Bath, UK. When Nevinson was young and starting out in his custodial work, he said quite definately that chain stitch was not used in England in our period. Now, I'll bet he'd like to erase every copy! His scholarship is usually good, if you catch him in something, don't discount everything he says. We all learn. (Mostly, not to say 'always' or 'never') Now: Norris. He did excellent work for his time, and says, himself, that we have much to learn. And so we have done, in the last 60 years. He uses drawings--there wasn't the photographic ease of illustration in his days. Sometimes, looking through art books, you can find the source of his drawings. Norris was THE bible for costuming in the early days of the SCA. A Laurel will have to say what is thought of him, now, since so many good books have been published. I look up things, and compare them with what is now said. He has some details you don't find elsewhere. Is that because modern authors weren't interested in those details, or because some of his sources were destroyed in World War II, or because he drew an inference that was unwarranted and so modern authors ignore him? I don't know. I just follow, and keep repeating, my three cardinal rules of research: 1. cross-reference, 2. cross-reference, and 3. cross-reference. Hope this helps, Allison ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:20:30 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: Re: Drawstring necks I spent a couple of hours looking a pictures, and can't say I found any conclusive proof that there were drawstring necklines. I made several of them in early years in the SCA, and was always hunting for a bodkin or a big pin and being late to things because my darned ribbons had burrowed away in hiding. I have, for years, made sewn necks because they are easier to deal with. A few of the drawstrings are still around, although I continue to prefer the sewn ones. That may be the reason we don't see many. Griselda, of the Patient Griselda legend, may have on a drawstring chemise. It's really hard to tell if those really are strings. Shirts on drying lines in several Italian pictures appear to narrow at the necks, although one batch 'could' be wide enough to need a drawstring. Since it would have been *most* immodest to have let your strings show, they are not too likely to show up in paintings. Allison ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:20:33 -0500 From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Re: 19th Century Headwear I would expect that a woman would possibly wear some form of cap to keep her hair clean while doing dusty or dirty chores in the house, but a bonnet would be for outdoor wear. Round straw hats or a sunbonnet could be worn outdoors. When you say "working in the field", exactly what do you mean? Most "fieldwork" would have been done by men; women took care of the kitchen garden, dairy animals, chickens, etc., which wouldn't take them too far from the house. Also, where, specifically, are you thinking about? There are likely some regional differences. Joan Jurancich joanj@quiknet.com Sacramento, CA At 06:58 AM 3/19/97 -0500, Kimberly Burnette wrote: >Anyone have any sources of information as to what women in the time period >from 1845-1855 would have worn on their heads? Would they have worn some >type of bonnet while inside the house? Would just plain straw hats (round >farmer looking hats) be appropriate for a farm woman working in the field? > >Thanks >Kimberly >burnette@roanoke.infi.net >Roanoke, Virginia, USA > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:20:48 -0500 From: hanna larsson Subject: Re: Doublets C15th In answer to the posting by David Key, The White Company (1450-1485), for whose response I am very grateful... >Hanna >I'd like to try & pin down what you mean by c15th. I know that sounds >mad but the doublet of 1400 was significantly different to that of >1450 which in turn was different to that of 1500. DO you also have >any particular region (Flanders, France, England, Italy ?) in mind >as that will also make a big difference. I was thinking of both the 1400 and mid 15:th c, and honestly I didn't know the difference was so great! Could someone please explain it to me? My main interest in this question, anyway, lies in mid 15:th c, Burgundy and France, which I know I should have stated. But I'm also interested in England and Flanders... >This is where a lot of modern reconstructions of gowns fail, in my >opinion at any rate, as they pad the gown rather than the doublet >beneath. Hmmm...that makes me think of the pleats on mid 15:th c. jackets. I've been pondering upon the best possible way to construct them. Any tips? And I'm also a bit confused by the number of variations: where the pleats only fall from the shoulders, and where they fall from the entire chest, and where they are fixed at the waist... I don't know if these are fashions at different times or not, or if they were regional differences. >A final word of caution before you take illustrative sources too >literally ... there is a surviving c14th Jupon (I think the >article on it is in an old edition of 'Costume') which has the >classic pigeon chest and wasp waist ... if ever something looked like >it HAD to be padded this was it ... problem is ... it wasn't. >This lead to the writer querying whether an additional pad was worn >underneath the jupon to provide the necessary bulk. Are you referring to the Jupon of Charles de Blois? >I don't know for sure ... but there are more garments in the c15th >wardrobe than doublet & gown. A commonly shown article covers the >chest from throat to waist and is worn over the doublet ... whether >this is a stomacher (rather than the smaller abdomen covering insert >worn underneath the doublet (eg. in Memlinc) a peticote or whatever >I'm not sure ... suggestions greatly appreciated). This would be >easy to pad and create the effect of a padded chest. I'm not sure I know what you mean. The only thing I can think of is the black thing you see starting half-way down the chest on the open mid 15:th c. jackets, (portrayed in the very nice painting of St:Eligius by Petrus Christus, 1449). In "Late Gothic Europe", Margaret Scott writes, on the account of this very painting: "Partially filling in the gap under the gown is a black undergarment, apparently called quite simply and sensibly a "piece": in 1458/9 Charles VII of France was to aquire several, often matching his doublet and described as "une piece a mettre devant son estommac" or devant sa poitrine", even though they were no longer visible in fashionalble dress" Any comments? Have you ever seen this article worn without a gown? References to paintings, manuscripts etc. would be very welcome. And finally: could it have been that padding of the chest was only used when the wearer was to far from the male ideal? -Hanna Larsson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:20:52 -0500 From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: FWD: Sleeves I haven't seen this come back from h-costume list. Did it get lost or is there something wrong with it? Caroline -------------------------------- ATTACHMENT -------------------------------- I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M Created: Sent: From: Caroline Yeldham YELDHAM CS@A1@UKA Dept: Cellular Sciences Tel No: Stevenage 4809 TO: Remote Addressee ( h-costume@brownvm.brown.edu@relay ) Subject: Sleeves Re Lord Ras' comments on sleeves and the query on sewing threads All the tie-on sleeves I've seen (15th and 16th century, England and Flanders) match each other and, whereas they may not match the garment they tie to, often match another garment worn (eg the kirtle under the gown). I also had a look at 'Textiles and Clothing', one of the Museum of London books (ISBN 0 11 290445 9 - highly recommended like all this series), which has a section on sewing threads. There is a problem in that most of the threads seem to have been linen, which doesn't survive water-logged conditions (they've got the holes, but no thread). They then quote the Great Wardrobe accounts of the 14th century, which shows various weights of linen thread being supplied, costing between 2/- and 2/8 a lb, but also coming in different colours. There is a little evidence for cotton sewing thread from the end of the 14th century, at 12d per lb. Silk thread was extensively used for royal clothing and probably also aristocracy and rich merchant families. Most are two ply, each element Z-twisted and then S-plied - there is also the edge of (probably) a veil where single threads of floss silk were used. Used on silk cloth but also on woolen cloth, decoratively but also for buttonholes, hems and seams - cost 15/- to 20/- a lb, purchased from City mercers or Italian merchants and in a wide range of colours - white, black,yellow, blue, green, red, purple and flame are specified "would have matched the dyes of the clothes and woven silks, although on occasion it is possible that contrasting colours might have been employed". Wool thread was also used, but little evidence in 14th century - probably lower classes of society. Only five examples survive from London for the later medieval period; three with tabby woven cloths, one inserted trhough the selvedge of a twill and to stitch a fragmentary roll of twill cloth. The stitching thread is similar to the woven threads and may have been unravelled. Worsted yarn (crewel thread) is rare in the Great Wardrobe accounts and seems to hav been used solely for embroidery motifs. Janet Arnold in Patterns of Fashion also discusses the sewing threads used in the garments she has examined, but I don't have that to hand. From memory, they tend to match the garment and are sometimes the same threads (ie unravelled). Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:21:02 -0500 From: Marti Magarian Dolata Subject: Re: slashing Don't I remember Arnold's book showing some punches for "slashing". What works best for me is a straight edge, very sharp chistle (how DO you spell that?) and a hammer. It's easy to position correctly and then BAP with the hammer. This was on wool cloth that had been felted to the point that, while the individual weave was still visible, all the threads had other connections. I've washed this garment many times (gentle cycle, cold water, lay to dry) and the slashes after an initial small fraying haven't changed. Marti (marti@ai.chem.ohiou.edu) Entropy.......it's not just a way of life - it's a Law! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:21:23 -0500 From: "Carol E. Newby" Subject: Re: question on pattern drafting I own a copy of PatternMaker. I've had it since June and have yet to find a large enough block of time to sit down with it and really get comfortable with it. I have to say though that the support I have gotten from the company has been excellent - for instance I sent email because one of the macros you use to create a sloper worked fine, except for producing a very odd armscye. The next day they sent me email with a new macro to try out. Over all my feeling is that if I had not received the software as a gift, I would have waited until the companies worked the kinks out of the various programs available. Carol ~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~ Carol E. Newby Elspeth the Semstress of Dunkeld ladybug@falkor.neei.com http://www.neei.com/~ladybug "Unless you try to do something beyond what you have already mastered, you will never grow." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:21:27 -0500 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Sew Beautiful Hi folks: Check out the latest issue of Sew Beautiful. It's a Renaissance Fantasy issue. They did a photo shoot at a ren faire in Tennessee, and a feature about a woman who makes "historical" wedding gowns. Most of the costumes in the photo shoot are pretty humourous, but the kid's clothes shown have some cute knights and castles appliques, for those of us who like such things. The rennaissance wedding dress shown strays really far afield, but the cool part is that they show a method for doing that crisscross shirring that you see on partlets in Elizabethan portraits. (although they show it on a forepart). Margo Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:21:30 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: 1870's Birtish Army Uniform Does anyone have any idea where I could find patterns for British Army uniforms form the 1870's? -- Dale A. Loberger "GIS Solutions for Tennessee" ESRI - Charlotte, 8000 Corporate Ctr Dr, Ste 111, Charlotte, NC 28226 Phone: 704-541-9810 Fax: 704-541-7620 Website: http://www.esri.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:21:43 -0500 From: "Chantal M. Pecourt" Subject: Wearing Black Velvet Question Hello I recently got a sleeveless, floor length black velvet dress that I am dying to wear. There is an afternoon 3pm wedding coming up in April. My mother insists that one cannot wear velvet after winter is over. Is she right? Chantal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:21:46 -0500 From: Allyson Tripp Rozell Subject: cadas, and infant's clothes question Dave, According to the OED, cadas is an obs. spelling of caddis. First definition, "cotton wool, floss silk, or the like, used in padding." Apparently usage comes from mixing usage of two words, the old French "cadarce" which refers specifically to silk, and the Irish "cadas" or "cadan" which refers specifically to cotton. "cadarce" is defined by R. Cotgrave in "Dictionarie of the French and English Tongues" to be "the tow or coarsest part of silke, whereof sleaue is made." (My husband got me the OED for my birthday this year!) For my question, I'm trying to figure out what to dress my son in for a couple upcoming events. So he will be 3 and 7 months for these, pretty much still babe in arms. My costuming is still pretty rough, but I try for English, mid-11th century, and my husband does Welsh, mid-13th century. So anything in between would work for our son (geographically and chronologically). Margo mentioned shift and biggins, so I looked up biggins (a child's cap). My resources have been somewhat limited, and the only reference I've seen just talks about swaddling (which would result in a screaming infant, since he's not used to it). And I have no idea what sort of look I'm going for, though I assume it will be pretty simple. Where should I look? What am I looking for? For that matter, what am I going to wear (as I will be breastfeeding)? The dresses I've seen pictured for English mid-11th don't even have any convenient seams, let alone openings. I don't really need patterns, because I'm going more for the right look, than the exact construction techniques, and I always end up improvising from patterns anyway. Thanks, Allyson Tripp Rozell atripp@sfu.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:21:16 -0500 From: Dawn Hunt Subject: Cavalier Hats Greetings list: I have a new cavalier hat which has a wavy edge along the brim. Is there any way, short of cutting it off, to make this smooth? Thanks Dawn Hunt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:21:55 -0500 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: 5-6th c. China In addition to the excellent "5000 yrs. of Chinese Costumes", you might also try the Osprey series "Men-at-arms" -- they do 2 or 3 books on ancient/medieval Chinese armies (good color pics. careful research) Too bad you aren't researching 100-200 yrs later. The T'ang period is much better documented, esp. ladies' clothes. Susan Fatemi susanf@california.com OR susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu > Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:14:06 -0500 > From: Elizabeth Lear > Subject: Re: 5/6th Century Chinese > > > I like this book: > > 5000 Years of Chinese Costumes > Zhou Xun & Gao Chunming > China Books & Periodicals, San Francisco 1987 0-8351-1822-3 > Chinese garb > > 1100BC to modern times - beautiful color layouts and details > > ...eliz > > ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:20:15 -0500 From: Sue & Ted Subject: Re: fichu shape - 1779 or so > I don't believe they were called "fichus" during the period but > "Neck-kerchiefs" which implies, to me, a square shape. Fichu is the French word. I have found no documentation for it's use in the English speaking world for this time period. Handkerchief seems to be used the most. Pocket handkerchief was used to describe what you wipe your nose on. Sue Huesken co-editor Had on and Took with Her Clothing in female runaway servant ads 1775-84 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:21:52 -0500 From: "M. Cricket Bauer" Subject: Oilcloths origins I stumbled across this reference while browsing through "Umbrellas and Parasols," by Jeremy Farrell, one of the Costume Accessories Series, and edited by Aileen Ribiero. It refers to the origins of oilcloth "invented by Giacomo Marigi of Turin...", presumeably in the late 16th or early 17th century as indicated by the context of the statement. The footnote to this statement cites a book by T.S. Crawford, "A History of the Umbrella," David & Charles publishers, 1970. I would be interested to hear what this book says about oilcloth, if anyone has access to it. Cricket Bauer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:22:23 -0500 From: Linda Thompson Subject: Padded doublets > >Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 20:16:17 -0500 >From: hanna larsson >Subject: Doublets, 15:th C. > >Hello out there! > > >I've read in several books that doublets during the 15:th century (and >earlier) were padded, (or rather that it looks like >they are). Now I'm wondering, what are the original sources to support >this fact? Originally I believe padding was used as protection when fencing/swordplay. But more for fashion later, I know of at least one source (out of many) for the later half of the 1500's. You can find actual garments in the Janet Arnold book "Patterns of Fashion" c1560-1620. And yes they were as exagerated as they looked... They made these awful (at least to me) looking things called "peascod bellies". Heavily stuffed, hanging, protruding and uuugggleeee. Later Linda (Hi Catherine) ;) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:23:01 -0500 From: Deborah Pulliam Subject: Janet Arnold's bibliography Because of some of the confusion over her writing, Janet Arnold asked me to post her bibliography here for those of you interested in finding some of the articles, etc. published in the past. Because it is so long, I'm posting it in two parts. This message includes books, published conference papers and contributions to exhbition catalogs. The following message will include articles in periodicals. And in answer to some of the questions about her background and sewing skills, she holds a certificate in arts and crafts, a national diploma of design in dress, a certificate of education, and art teacher's diploma. She worked for about ten years cutting period costumes and working in the wardrobes of several theater companies in England. She also has industrial and couture experience in cutting and sewing. She is not a conservator, nor is she a curator. List of Publications: Janet Arnold FSA BOOKS [Patterns of Fashion 1] (cut and construction of women's clothing, 1660-1860) --Wace 1964, Macmillan 1972. Revised metric edition 1977. [Patterns of Fashion 2] (cut and construction of women's clothing, 1860-1940) --Wace 1966, Macmillan 1972. [Patterns of Fashion: the cut and construction of clothes for men and women 1560-1620] -- Macmillan 1985. Revised edition 1986. [Perukes and Periwigs] -- HMSO, 1970. A booklet on the development of wig styles in paintings at the National Portrait Gallery, London. [A Handbook of Costume] -- Macmillan 1973. Reprinted 1978. A guide to the primary sources for costume study. ['Lost from Her Majesty's Back']-- The Costume Society, 1980. Items of clothing and jewels lost or given away by Queen Elizabeth I between 1561 and 1583, entered in one of the day books kept for the records of the Wardrobe of Robes. [Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd] -- W S Maney and Son Ltd, Leeds 1988. A study of the clothes worn by Queen Elizabeth I, basd on portraits, warrants for the Wardrobe of Ribes, and other material. Inluces full transcription of the inventories of the Wardrobe of Robes prepared in 1600, preserved in the British Library, Public Records Office, London, and the Folger Shakespeare Library, Washington Dc. PUBLISHED CONFERENCE PAPERS AND CONTRIBUTIONS TO EXHIBIT CATALOGS [Costume] -- a general costume bibliography, with Pegaret Anthony. Victoria and Albert in association with the Costume Society, 1966. Revised 1974, reprinted 1977. Two patterns of early 18 century mantuas -- for the London Museum catalog, [Women's Costume 1600 - 1750], HMSO 1969. Papers in the proceedings of the annual Costume Society conference: "The Cut and Construction of Women's Dress, 1890- 1914", in [La Belle Epoque], 1967, pp 21-36. "The Cut and Construction of Women's Dress, 1860- 1890", in [High Victorian], 1968, pp 21 - 29. "The Cut and Construction of Women's Dress, 1830- 1860", in [Early Victorian], 1969, pp 12 - 19. "The Clasical Influence on the Cut, Construction, and Decoration of Women's Dress, 1785 - 1820", in [The So Called Age of Elegance], 1970, pp 17 - 23. "The Dressmaker's Craft", in [Strata of Society], 1973, pp 29 - 40. "Sweet England's Jewels" and catalog entries for portraits in [Princely Magnificence], catalog of the exhibition of European Renaissance Court From ???@??? Wed Mar 26 11:15:21 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA23986 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 26 Mar 1997 08:55:11 +0100 Message-Id: <199703260755.AA23986@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <8.DFF966D4@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 8:55:10 +0100 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 00:01:55 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 20 Mar 1997 to 25 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests Jewellry, Victoria and Albert Museum, 1980, pp 31 - 40, 99 - 112. Research and illustrations contributed to "Il Reauro degli abiti funebri dei Medici: Studi preliminari", an exhibition at the Palazzo Pitti, February 1985. Centro Di, Florence, 1985. "Preliminary investigation into the Medici Graves Clothes", in [Il Costume nell'eta'del Pinascimento], Edifir, Florence, 1988, pp 149 - 157. "The Cut and Consturction of Women's Clothes in the Eighteenth Century", with three patterns, in [Revolution in Fashion 1715 - 1815], catalog of the exhibition at Kyoto Costume Institute, Japan, 1989, pp 126 - 134. Editor for English edition of Katia Johansen, [Royal Gowns], exhibition catalog, Rosenborg Palace, Copenhagen, 1990. "Smocks, shirts, falling bands and mantuas", a paper on evidence of early ready-to-wear clothing, [Per Una Storia della Moda Pronta: problemi e richerche] Atti del V Convegno Internazionale del CISST, Milano, 26-28 Febbrario 1990, Florence, 1991, pp 17 - 27. "Queen Elizabeth's Jewels" in [The International Silver and Jewellry Fair and Seminar], London 1991, pp 35 - 36. "Clothes from the Point of View of the Historian" in [Bevarandets Hemlighet: The Secret of Preservation Revealed], catalog of the exhibition at the Livurstkammaren, Stockholm, 1991, pp 41 - 44. "Cut and Construction", in [Moda all Coret edi Medici: gli abiti restaurati di Copsimo, Eleonora e Don Garzia], catalog of the exhibition at the Pitti Palace, Centro Di, Florence, 1993, pp 49 - 73. Catalog entries on wigs and items of dress in [The Funeral Effigies of Westminster Abbey], Woodbridge, 1994. "Liveries at the Court of Queen Elizabeth I" in [Le Trame della Moda], atti del Seminario Internazionale svoltosi a Urbino il 7-8 Ottobre 1992 promosso dal Centro Italiano per lo studio della Storio del Tessuto e dal Centro Studi sulle Societa d'antico Regime Europa delle Corti, Bulzoni, Milan, 1995, pp 253 - 274. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:23:04 -0500 From: Deborah Pulliam Subject: j. arnold's biblio part 2 List of Publications: Janet Arnold FSA PERIODICAL ARTICLES "A silver tissue dress c 1660, from the Museum of Costume, Bath" in [Costume].(the journal of the Costume Society), London (first series), #2, 1966. "An evening dress of 1893, from the London Museum" in [Costume], London, first series, #3, 1966. "A wedding dress worn by Princess Sophia Magdalena in 1766" in {Costume], London, new series, #1, 1967, pp 17 - 21. "A caftan said to have been worn by Selim I (1512 - 20)" in [Costume], London,#2, 1968, pp 49 - 52. "A pink silk domino from the Victoria and Albert Museum, c. 1760 - 70" in [Costume], London, #3, 1969, pp 31 - 34. "A mantua c. 1708 - 09, from Clive House Musuem, Shrewsbury" in [Costume], London, #4, 1970, pp 26 - 31. "A study of three jerkins" in [Costume], London, #5, 1971, pp 36 - 45. "The exhibition of costumes for the BBC/TV series 'The Six Wives of Henry VIII' and 'Elizabeth R', in [MAG], No. 10, Transactions of the Museum Assistants' Group for 1971, pp 7 - 14. "A court mantua of c. 1740" in [Costume], London,#6, 1972, pp 48 - 52. "A court mantua of c. 1760 - 65" in [Costume], London, #7, 1973, pp7 - 14. "Sir Richard Cotton's suit" in [The Burlington Magazine], CXV, no. 842, May 1973, pp 326 - 329. "Three examples of late sixteenth and early seventeenth century neckwear", in [Waffen-und Kostumkunde], Munich, vol. 15, part 2, 1973, pp 109 - 124. "Reminiscences of a Court Dressmaker" in [Costume], London, #8, 1974, pp 22 - 25. "Decorative features: pinking, snipping and slashing" in [Costume], London, #9, 1975, pp 22 - 26. "An Edinburgh tailor's story" in [Costume], London, #10, 1976, pp 74 - 85. "Fashions in Miniature" in [Costume], London, #11, 1977, pp 45 - 55. "Elizabethan and Jacobean smocks and shirts" in [Waffen-und Kostumkunde], Munich, vol. 19, part 2, 1977, pp 89 - 110. "Nils Sture's suit", [Costume], London, #12, 1978, pp 13 - 26. "The 'Coronation' portrait of Queen Elizabeth I", [The Burlington Magazine], CXX, no. 908, November 1978, pp 727 - 241. "Two Early Seventeenth Century Fencing Doublets" in [Waffen-und Kostumkunde], Munich, vol. 21, part 2, 1979, pp 107 - 120. "Jane Lambarde's Mantle" in [Costume],. London, #14, 1980, pp 56 - 72. "A Sack Gown from the Haddington Collection at the National Museum of Antiquities of Scotland, Edinburgh" in [Studies in Conservation], no. 25, 1980, pp 19 - 27. "An Early Seventeenth Century Woman's Riding Doublet or Cassock" in [Waffen-und Kostumkunde], Munich, vol. 22, part 2, 1980, pp 113 - 128. "A Woman's Doublet of about 1585" in [Waffen-und Kostumkunde], Munich, vol. 23, part 2, 1981, pp 132 - 142. "The 'Picture' of Elizabeth I when Princess" in [The Burlington Magazine], CXXIII, no. 938, May 1981, pp 303 - 304. "A Labour'd Hoop to ornament the Fair" in [The Journal of the International Association of Costume], Tokyo, #2, 1985, pp 6 - 12. "A court mantua from the Haddington Collection in the Royal Museum of Scotland, Ediburgh, in [Waffen-und Kostumkunde], Munich, vol. 28, part 1, 1986, pp 37 - 48. "The Golden Gown of Queen Margareta in Uppsala Cathedral", long review with evidence for redating from 1363 to c. 1469, in [Waffen-und Kostumkunde], Munich, vol. 29, part 2, 1986, pp 148 - 151. "The 'Armada' portraits of Queen Elizabeth I" in [Apollo], Vol. CXXIX, no. 326 (new series), April 1989, pp 242 - 246. "A study of the clothes and regalia depicted on the tomb of Queen Elizabeth I in Westminister Abbey" in [The Journal of the International Association of Costume], Tokyo, #7, 1990,. pp 11 - 28. "Dolphins and Flaming Hearts" in [Haandorbejdets Fremme: The Danish Handcraft Guild], vol. 57, no. 2, 1991, pp 31 - 33. "The Kirtle, or Surcoat, and Mantle of the Most Noble Order of the Garter worn by Christian IV, King of Denmark and Norway" in [The Antiquaries Journal], vol. 72, 1992, pp141 - 167. "The Jupon, or coat-armor, of the Black Prince in Canterbury Cathedral" in [Church Monuments], the Journal of the Church Monument Society, VIII, 1993, pp 12 - 24. "Costumes for masques and other entertainments c. 1500 - 1640" in [Historical Dance], the journal of the Dolmetsch Historical Dance Society, 3, no. 2, 1993, pp 3 - 20. "A Prelate's robe for the Most Noble Order of the Garter worn by the Right Reverend Sir Jonathan Trelawney 3rd Bart., Lord Bishop of Winchester, in 1707" in [Costume], London, #28, 1994, pp 22 - 36. "An innovative method for mounting the sixteenth century doublet and trunkhose worn by Don Garzia de'Medici" with Mary Westerman Bulgarella, in [Costume], London, #30, 1996, pp 47 - 55. "The Comte de Toulouse's 'Months of Lucas' Tapestries: sixteenth century designs with eighteenth century additions" with Edith Standen, in [The Metropolitan Museum Journal], #31, 1996, pp 59 - 79. "The Graves Clothes of Ferdinand I of Hapsburg, 1564" in [Costume in Context], UKIC, Textile Section, postprints of the forum held at the Guildhall, Bath, 11 March 1996, pp 10 - 11. Edited by Frances Lennard. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:23:44 -0500 From: Colleen Subject: pattern Am searching for an 18th century judges' robe pattern. Thanks! Colleen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:24:14 -0500 From: Frances Grimble Subject: Summer Renaissance Dance Workshop in San Francisco Area The San Franciso Early Music Society is holding a summer dance workshop from July 6-12 at Dominican College in San Rafael. This is in connection with their annual Renaissance music workshop, but there will also be a full daily schedule of dance. Angene Feves will teach dances she reconstructed from an unpublished late 16th-century dance manuscript, which have never been taught before. If enrollment is large enough, SFEMS will also bring over from Italy an instructor specializing in 15th-century dance (so enroll early!). Students may, optionally, room in the college dorms. The basic workshop fee is $320, but there are various options depending on whether you are a member of SFEMS, whether you are rooming on campus, whether you enroll after May 1, etc. For more information contact: Phoebe Craig Renaissance Workshop Director 1512 Spruce Berkeley, CA 94709 (510) 540-7415 Phebec@aol.com or SFEMS Education Programs PO Box 9313 Berkeley, CA 94709 AGSugden@aol.com SFEMS also has a web site at http://www.sfems.org Fran Grimble P.S. My huband/dance partner and I will attend the workshop, but we are not connected with its organization and derive no financial benefit from it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:24:27 -0500 From: StrangeGirl Subject: Re: New Hunnisett Book I own a copy and have now used it as a pattern reference for a number of garments (some of which got worn this weekend). Her documentation is excellent as usual, and she provides bias pattern layouts for those who prefer bias, while explaining that these are primarily theatrical and not documented. It includes the usual exhaustive how-to chapters, with a photo of nearly every pattern as a toile on a stand, so you can see what it is intended to look like. I like the fact that there are *several* pattern diagrams for sideless surcotes, instead of the *one* pattern that shows up in nearly every other mainstream pattern reference. Good book. Maureen -- GothCode v2.5a GoCD5$Th2GD4NA3Sp2$ TFePJt(An) cNR(P)m7 PeSaR M3 ZGoPuTeiFaCl!! C6om a26- b55TD H166 G8! w9L r7EBP h5TAn s6 k7 Rn SmNn N0595 LusCA --didn't that _hurt_?--Hey! come visit my boring webpage!http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/4532 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:24:46 -0500 From: Tetsuya Takahashi Subject: about a cloak Hi all I am Tetsuya "cloak-freek" Takahashi. Does anyone know a book or resourse that can get a history of cloak? Does a cloak have a important thing in history of costume? If you have a interest,Please tell me about it. Anyway Is there another Japanese in this mail list!? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:24:50 -0500 From: Jim and Angela Burnley Subject: Re: fichu shape - 1779 or so Yes, there is documentation for the triangular modesty panel, but not with the scooped neck to my knowledge. Instead try this trick. For the length of your neck shoulder to shoulder, fold the long end of the panel(using the center of the panel as the center of the back of your neck) accordian style. Secure a brass straight pin at each end of the accordian pleat being careful to imbed the point. When you put your panel on, it will lay flat and comfortably against your neck. I would suggest a little larger size as well, say 30" to insure that the back point stays tucked in or rides below the neckline of your shortgown. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:24:53 -0500 From: Carol Kocian Subject: Re: Fichu questions There was a recent question posted (by Deb Baddorf, I think) about shapes of kerchiefs or fichus of the late 18thC. I asked Alden O'Brein, curator of the DAR Museum, about this. She said, "We have both squares and triangles in our collection so yes, you could cut a square in 2 esp if you wanted it more diaphanous. But I haven't ever seen an ex. of something cut out before maybe 1820s? when you get that pelerine type look. Though the bunching up bothers us it seems to be the natural result of draping a square or triangle. I am perusing 18th c. stuff just now & will keep a look out for kerchiefs both shapes, alone & on manikins, & report if I see anything different." -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:24:56 -0500 From: Dale Loberger Subject: Pattern Drafting Programs As some of you know, I am in the throes of a huge pattern drafting project, in order that I may reproduce the patterns I use in my work and sell them to the general market. My 2c worth: I draft a LOT of patterns, on average one or two every day, including a lot of weekends. I do it by hand, taking a pattern from a live person or altering a sloper to get the desired garment. I grade all of my patterns from sizes 4-26 for women, 34-48 for men, plus I do plenty of custom sizing for difficult cases. Some people may not believe this, but this is the easy part. The difficult part is getting that information into the computer in a way that the computer will "spit out" a usable pattern, hopefully a really nice-looking one, consistently and in a format that can be printed professionally and sold! In my old career, I had drafted & output maps for several years on computer before becoming a historic costumer, and really thought this would be a piece of cake. To make an excruciatingly long story short, it isn t. Firstly, you have to have the RIGHT drafting package (in my case, AutoCAD). Secondly, you have to be incredibly patient with hardware goof-ups and your own mistakes. Allow three no, make that four times the amount of time you think it will take to produce a usable product. Don t think that pattern drafting on computer is going to save you very much time, because at the beginning, it is going to waste a lot of your time. I can t imagine anyone outside of a professional pattern producer who really needs to do this, except maybe really big Theater departments or groups who draft hundreds and hundreds of patterns a year in different sizes. Like any other computer project, inputting the information is going to take at least as long as doing it all by hand. The savings comes later, when you have eliminated the need to draft the same pattern over and over again to make copies for specific uses, or to grade a pattern to other sizes, or to take an existing pattern in your library and alter it to get a new pattern for a different garment. This is not easy to learn. One day, I hope it will be worth it, I know it will be worth it, but right now I wish it was all over! Also, consider the equipment you will need not just a computer and storage, but a plotter and all the stuff that goes with it. Not a cheap undertaking, by any means. The good thing is you don t need the big fancy multi-color warp-speed plotters that the engineering and cartographic shops need/want nowadays. You might check around and pick up a used pen plotter, like I did, relatively cheap. Good luck and I hesitated a long time before answering this post, ignoring it the first time, it was that painful to write. Regards, Susannah Eanes, Mantua Maker and Fine Tailoring (Susan Bridges Loberger for Susannah s Heirloom, Ltd.) "We are only the trustees for those that come after us." --William Morris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:25:09 -0500 From: Kelly A Rinne Subject: messages? I transferred my subscription to coskel@chicagonet.net on March 17th. I then received messages for two days. Then they stopped arriving on March 21. What do I need to do? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:25:14 -0500 From: "Kimberly R. Gilbert" Subject: French & Indian War Clothing Sources? First of all, I need to extend my apologies and appreciation to those people who were so generous to send me information about wool sources. It was highly appreciated, and I apologize for not having expressed my appreciation sooner to those people. The reason I suddenly remembered this (as I appear to have a mind like a steel sieve), is that I suddenly find myself in need of help. I'm having a hard time finding sources of information about clothes worn by the British female campfollowers in the French & Indian War. There are only two other women in our group and I haven't been able to find out much from them. If anyone could please point me in the right (or even general) direction, it would be much appreciated. I know I can find or at least adapt patterns once I know what the "look" is; I'd like to be more certain than I am about what the correct look is. (For those who are wondering, I'm still fairly new, and although I've attended the Feast of the Hunter's Moon on and off for the last 15 years, I'm kinda vague on specifics.) Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated. Kimberly Gilbert "This is terrible news! Do you actually SCA: Anne Fenton intend to kill your enemies? Can't you kgilbert@bluemarble.net just speak sternly to them?" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:35:57 -0500 From: suzanne hader Subject: list back open Sorry for the relative silence. Both lists were among 300 victims of an attempted email spam attack. (Someone tried to post about 200k worth of gibberish over a hundred times.) Please understand that all the messages from both these lists get plonked in *my* mailbox first. As my inbox teetered on the 50 meg mark, my access was suspended since it looked to the admin like my account had been hacked. This was Friday afternoon, and so I didn't find out until Friday night, at which time i had to wait until Monday afternoon to find the sysadmin, clean up the damage, etc. As a precaution, listserv automatically froze both lists, aniticipating that it was a spam attack, since it was passing the huge files along to me. Everything is ok now, but I would *really* appreciate it if some of you would be a little less rude when reporting a problem. If anyone else out there would like to run these lists, I will gladly pass them on to you. Between editing out the garbage and people complaining that I'm lazy, I've about had it. suzanne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:55:31 -0500 From: Nancy Stengel Subject: Raphael Portrait of Joanna of Aragon I am working on a dress based on this portrait and have two problem areas: 1) Does anyone have any suggestions as to the attachment of the sleeve? It is impossible to determine exactly what is going on there, and I'm looking for ideas. 2) Are there any pictures that show a back view of the type of hat that she is wearing? I'm familiar with the Pontormo portrait that shows a similar hat, but again, it is a front view. Any ideas/advice would be appreciated, either privately or publicly. Nancy Stengel aka Gwyneth Greenecliff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:55:34 -0500 From: Hope Greenberg Subject: Some additions to Godey's Lady's Book web Hello - I've made a couple small additions to the Godey's lady's Book web based on some recent conversations and enquiries. Available at http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/godey/fashion/ or specifically as directed below: Some information on hair jewelry including three images. http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/godey/fashion/hairjewelry.html and A series of 1858 articles by Mrs. Damas (??) titled Hints on the Art of Dressmaking. Included are hints on stay-making, shirt-making, cutting and fitting a dress body, and how to make a cap. The sections on pockets, apron-making, braiding and summer jackets will follow. My favorite? Her admonition on stays: basically, if it's uncomfortable you've made it poorly! http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/godey/fashion/1858hints.html Enjoy! - Hope ---------- Hope Greenberg University of Vermont http://www.uvm.edu/~hag ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:55:37 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Re: Wearing Black Velvet Question In a message dated 97-03-25 10:38:56 EST, you write: > Hello > I recently got a sleeveless, floor length black velvet dress that I > am dying to wear. There is an afternoon 3pm wedding coming up in April. My > mother insists that one cannot wear velvet after winter is over. Is she > right? > > > Chantal I'm not aware of what the "rules" are for velvet, but I wouldn't wear black floor-length anything to an afternoon wedding. Sounds too much like an evening gown. MaggiRos ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 17:51:36 -0500 From: Guinevere White Lee Subject: Re: wearing of black velvet I would have no quams wearing velvet at any time of the year. What I would question is the color of the dress. A black dress to an afternoon wedding may not be the best choice. Perhaps to an evening wedding with a formal sit down dinner reception. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 17:52:10 -0500 From: Cynthia Virtue Subject: Re: Drawstring necks > them in early years in the SCA, and was always hunting for a bodkin or a > big pin and being late to things because my darned ribbons had burrowed > away in hiding. These days I don't use drawstrings except for regular sleepwear use, but one solution to the string problem is to sew or tie them together at the very ends -- making a closed loop that is way too loose. Then when you put the item on, form rabbit-ear loops, one in each hand, and tie the loops together as if they were the ends of a normal drawstring. This solves the run-away drawstring problem. Cynthia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 17:53:09 -0500 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: fichu shape - 1779 or so Sue & Ted wrote: > > > I don't believe they were called "fichus" during the period but > > "Neck-kerchiefs" which implies, to me, a square shape. > > Fichu is the French word. I have found no documentation > for it's use in the English speaking world for this time period. > Handkerchief seems to be used the most. Pocket handkerchief was > used to describe what you wipe your nose on. > > Sue Huesken > co-editor Had on and Took with Her > Clothing in female runaway servant ads 1775-84 A Dictionary of English Costume 900-1900 (Cunnington) says that it is a French word first used (in England) in 1816 to replace Hankerchief or Neckerchief, being a length of usually flimsy material worn round the neck and shoulders. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 17:53:20 -0500 From: Deb Subject: Re: fichu shape - 1779 or so > Fichu is the French word. I have found no documentation >for it's use in the English speaking world for this time period. >Handkerchief seems to be used the most. Pocket handkerchief was >used to describe what you wipe your nose on. As I thought -- Fichu is the French word. I'm portraying a French character, so I'll use fichu (but I'll clarify that next time I ask, since several people made that comment!) (Mississippi River Valley & Michigan area was mostly French). I'm learning, though, that: 24" is too small. I'll try 36". And that a triangle is OK (I've only used squares so far). Now, I have to find some thin, filmy fabric ... Thanks to all! Deb Baddorf <===============================================> < Deb Baddorf Marie Susanne Godin Viviat baddorf@fnal.gov Fort Ste Joseph's militia, NWTA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 17:53:38 -0500 From: Cynthia Virtue Subject: Re: cadas, and infant's clothes question On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, Allyson Tripp Rozell wrote: > According to the OED, cadas is an obs. spelling of caddis. > First definition, "cotton wool, floss silk, or the like, used in padding." > "cadarce" is defined by R. Cotgrave in "Dictionarie of the French and > English Tongues" to be "the tow or coarsest part of silke, whereof sleaue > is made." So would it be reasonable to suppose that "cadarce" is basically silk noil (the short bits of the cocoon, used in cheaper silk fabric)? Thanks for posting this entry -- and when did Cotgrave publish his Dictionarie? Cynthia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 20:15:03 -0500 From: cynthia & kirk gisiner Subject: Re: Drawstring necks The DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution) Museum in Washington D.C. have some wonderful examples of drawsting neck shifts. -cyn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 20:16:12 -0500 From: "Glickman, Bonnie" Subject: FWD: F.I.T. PATTERN COURSE ONE OF MY FRIENDS AT WORK GOT THIS - fyi: > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:52:29 +0000 > From: "Gulbransen, Linda" > To: WEINGAMI@LUEY.CC.FITSUNY.EDU > Subject: programs & courses > > Some students are interested in computer fashion design and computer pattern- > making. Please send me names and internet addresses for the professors who > are involved in these areas. Thanks for your help. Linda FIT has a Computerized Design course which is numbered AF251. Some of the instuctors who teach the class are: Barbara Kerin Fax no. 212 949 0971 Gunter Reucker at FIT Fashion Design Dept. Room B701 and Rose Fabricant at FIT Fashion Design Dept. Room B801 The rest of the college address is Seventh Ave. at 27 Street, NY NY 10001. I do not know the e-mail addresses of any of the above. Hope this helps you. Dolores Lombardi FIT Assistant Director-Admissions -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- fwd BY LISTMEMBER B. GLICKMAN (ps: thanks very much to our "List Guardian") ============================================================== Bonnie Glickman bglickman@monroecc.edu I'm not waiting Biology Dept. bonnieg@frontiernet.net until I'm old... Monroe Community College glickman@mccvm.is.monroecc.edu I'm wearing my Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2725 purple NOW!-bg ============================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 20:44:26 -0500 From: "Chantal M. Pecourt" Subject: Black Velvet- thankyou Thanks to everyone for their thoughts about wearing black velvet to a wedding. I had kind of already figured out that it would be kind of tackey but was hoping to prove myself wrong, nope :-). But I am very grateful to the feedback, now I need to go dress shopping :-) Good to see the list back up. Chantal ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 20 Mar 1997 to 25 Mar 1997 **************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Apr 01 10:53:28 1997 Received: from mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA05103 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 27 Mar 1997 22:34:08 +0100 Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE by mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP (PP); Thu, 27 Mar 1997 22:31:08 +0100 Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <1.80095900@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 9:19:56 +0100 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 00:02:09 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 25 Mar 1997 to 26 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests Message-Id: <"mail.zrz.T.750:27.03.97.21.31.29"@TU-Berlin.DE> There are 16 messages totalling 488 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. US Model 1871 shako 2. French & Indian War Clothing Sources? 3. Princess Bride 4. Sleeves 5. Resent mail.... 6. 15th century doubets 7. Comfort and Clothing 8. Raphael Portrait of Joanna of Aragon 9. fichu shape - 1779 or so 10. antique bobbin? 11. nursing/baby clothes 12. Wearing Black Velvet Question 13. 1870's Birtish Army Uniform 14. cadas, and infant's clothes question 15. Pattern Drafting Programs 16. Cavalier Hat ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:41:14 -0500 From: "M. Cricket Bauer" Subject: US Model 1871 shako If anyone is aware of a supplier of reproduction US Model 1871 Infantry shako, I'd appreciate the information. Thanks! Cricket Bauer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:42:02 -0500 From: Michael N Morell Subject: Re: French & Indian War Clothing Sources? In response to your request for information on the garb of a British female camp follower of the French and Indian War I would first recomend looking at some of Hogarth's prints of military scenes such as "The March to Finchley" While this scene portrays the movement of a British regiment between two British towns there are depictions of the camp followers. There are also depictions of the working class civilians. Having done this I would then seek out paterns for clothing which comes close to what is protrayed in the prints. Also take a strong look at the aparent ages of the women portrayed. There were many diferent types of camp follower attached to an 18th century army. The British allowed a certain number of wives on the regimental roll as washerwomen. (These were not camp followers). Other wives and sweethearts followed the army in an unofficial capacity and hoped for the best. There were also the flocks of prostitutes, mobile grog shops and gin mills as well as legitimate merchants and sutlers who followed the armies. Many of the sutlers were female and held a licence to deal with the troops. Some as early as the Seven Years War were adopting the psudo-military garb of the later vivandiers and canteeniers of 19th century regiments. Also officer's ladies fell into the catagory of camp followers. The term had not become derisive and meant literally anyone (male or female) who followed an army while not being officially attached. I appologise if this information is boring but I feel it is pertinant to the the question. The outdoor garb worn by most working women in the mid to late 18th century would be a cap of some sort, a hat, a shift, stays, several petticoats, stockings, garters and shoes, and a gown, short gown or half-robe. A neck-kerchief, apron and pockets would also have been worn. In some cases an old soldier's coat (much worn, patched and with the braid and regimental buttons removed and replaced) could also be worn. The age of the woman was also important, the younger being more concerned with fashion and therefore taking the time to alter her clothing to ape the styles of her betters. This was also an era of much used clothing being worn so that it would not be uncommon to see out of date finery being worn. For the most part the clothing would have been neatly made and mended and great pains gone to to keep it looking as good as possible. Your best bet is to rely on period paintings and prints of civilian scenes and written descriptions when available. Also keep in mind that it is equally important to wear the colothing correctly as it is to have correct clothing. I also would not get so worried about accuracy that the enjoyment goes out of the of the hobby. After spending the better part of 30 years doing historic costume research I still have more questions than answers. Follow your own instincts and rely on your own research. If you follow the dictates of any of the BLANKET REENACTING ORGANIZATIONS, you will be quoted regulations rather than research. Mike Morell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:41:58 -0500 From: Connie Bolton Subject: Princess Bride The main man in my life would like me to make an outfit for him similar to the one worn by Prince Humperdink for his wedding. Is this at all period? If so, what time period would it be? Would there be any changes that would make it look a little more period? What fabrics/colours would be suitable. Thanks for any/all help with this. Connie ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Connie Bolton Production Assistant, CET Douglas College 527-5468 or 527-5662 fax 527-5095 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:42:12 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Re: Sleeves In a message dated 97-03-25 10:29:27 EST, you write: << All the tie-on sleeves I've seen (15th and 16th century, England and Flanders) match each other and, whereas they may not match the garment they tie to, often match another garment worn (eg the kirtle under the gown). >> You are correct here but their are pictures that exist showing that in Italy and in the Landsknecht fashions this was not always so. It may well have been far commoner to match but I do not think this was always the case. As far as threads are concerned, upon re-examing the pictures I have I think you are most probably correct . Lord Ras (Uduido@aol.com) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:44:25 -0500 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Resent mail.... At 10:21 AM 3/25/97 -0500, you wrote: > >For my question, I'm trying to figure out what to dress my son in for a >couple upcoming events. So he will be 3 and 7 months for these, pretty much >still babe in arms. My costuming is still pretty rough, but I try for >English, mid-11th century, and my husband does Welsh, mid-13th century. So >anything in between would work for our son (geographically and >chronologically the only >reference I've seen just talks about swaddling (which would result in a >screaming infant, since he's not used to it) Well, even the most rigid purists I know agree that swaddling is a Bad Idea. The usual solution is to dress baby in a small version of the underclothes of the period. For the 13th century, a tiny tunic is appropriate. Cut it fairly wide in the body, and put deep hems in the sleeves. Make the hem at least 12" longer than the baby, which will keep his feet warm and also help to conceal modern diapers should you be sane enough to use them. If you've cut it big enough, you'll be able to let down the sleeve hems and take the hem up to accomadate a 7th month old who is standing or crawling. While simple is fine, it doesn't have to be. The day I found out I was pregnant, I started work on a no-holds Elizabethan ( blackwork, jewels, handmade shoes, etc) baby costume. Well, I wasn't the right religion to get my ya-yas out with a christening dress :-) So if you like doing embroidery, go ahead and make an heirloom. > >For that matter, what am I going to wear (as I will be breastfeeding)? The >dresses I've seen pictured for English mid-11th don't even have any >convenient seams, let alone openings. > >I don't really need patterns, because I'm going more for the right look, >than the exact construction techniques, and I always end up improvising >from patterns anyway. Well, I guess I've been out of the SCA too long, because I had to go to my bookshelf to refresh my memory on the 13th century. It seems to me that the sleeveless overgowns with deep armholes (the early version of sideless surcoats) are ideally suited to nursing. I would put a centerfront opening in the undergown, probably buttons rather than lacing, (although since it won't show you could use some more convenient modern fastening) and simply open it, and move the surcoat slightly to one side. I have a mundane outfit that works this way and it's possible to nurse quite modestly. Margo Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:44:30 -0500 From: Margo Anderson Subject: 15th century doubets t 10:20 AM 3/25/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Hmmm...that makes me think of the pleats on mid 15:th c. jackets. I've been pondering upon the best possible way to construct them. Any tips? >And I'm also a bit confused by the number of variations: where the pleats only fall from the shoulders Well, a theatrical costumer told me that the ideal filling material for those hard, tubular pleats in the shoulders is tampons. They come in several sizes and they dry clean beautifully! Margo Anderson Uh-oh....the person who jumped all over us for the pubic hair discussion is gonna hate this post.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:46:23 -0500 From: Rhodry ferch Arianwyn Subject: Re: Comfort and Clothing In a message dated 97-03-12 10:53:48 EST, you write: > Lord Ras replied to a question on fabrics as follows: > > << What in your experience has been the best fabrics to use period and > >non period to survive 100+ degree weather with high humidity? >> > (this is Lord Ras' bit) > > >Two points to consider are>1) the earth was undergoing a "cold" spell at > the time > > This 'myth' keeps surfacing and I keep refuting it - you are only talking > about a degree or two, which may be significant for geographers, but are not > going to make a great deal of difference in clothing terms. Plus, the > strongest evidence for the freezing of the Thames is 17th century, after > this 'cold' spell referred to. > What about the fact that different geographical locations have different climates? Reno, Nevada is different from Sacramento, California (here we're only talking about 130 miles). England and other European locals are drastically different than the Sacramento Valley. - Today and in Period. Check weather service info, compare the region you live in with the region your trying to recreate - it could be really suprising. Make adjustments in your costuming accordingly - be comfortable. Its okay, really, the costuming police WON'T pull you out of bed and march you off; if they do, call someone for lawyers, guns, and money. - Rhodry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:46:45 -0500 From: "Diana H." Subject: Re: Raphael Portrait of Joanna of Aragon Nancy Stengel wrote: > > I am working on a dress based on this portrait and have two problem areas: > > 1) Does anyone have any suggestions as to the attachment of the sleeve? It > is impossible to determine exactly what is going on there, and I'm looking > for ideas. I thought I had a color picture of this one, but I couldn't find it to save my life. However, there is a portrait of a similar dress in Boucher on page 223. It is the Isabella of Portugal portrait. The sleeves are the same, although the bodice is a little different. But you can get a better idea of how they are attached. It looks like they are sewn on flat and grow into a bell shape near the wrist. And this dress has always fascinated me because the sleeves are beautiful, but it is unclear as to how they would stay bunched up like that. Possibly they are attached to her chemise in some way. Or maybe they are usually just turned back. Who knows? Anybody have any ideas or has anybody made a dress like this? Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:49:51 -0500 From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Subject: Re: fichu shape - 1779 or so Since we're hashing out terms, Angela Burnley wrote, >Yes, there is documentation for the triangular modesty panel.... When does the term "modesty panel" date from? I haven't seen it in 18thC sources, and it sounds like a Victorian sentiment. Angela, do you have an 18thC source for the term? -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:49:59 -0500 From: Deborah Wooten Subject: antique bobbin? Hi I am looking for a bobbin for an 1930 White sewing machine. It kinda looks like a torpeedo Thanks, Debbie ****************************************************************** Please read slowly I'm Blonde! Countess Baroness Deborah Lady Mightrinwood CB AoA AKA Debbie Wooten blonde@azstarnet.com http://www.azstarnet.com/~blonde/index.html http://www.azstarnet.com/~kutedge/index.html ****************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:51:28 -0500 From: Gaelscot@aol.com Subject: nursing/baby clothes Allyson: Good luck with your costumes! I admire your goal to costume your baby -- I am ashamed to say that I haven't even attempted it, because my sewing time is so limited that if I'm going to make something for mine, it's going to be something "real." But if I WERE going to make something for my dear little 4 1/2-month-old, I'd make a simple white linen shift (either a t-tunic thing) that was really long, like a christening gown. That seems to be the only thing I can recall seeing besides the swaddling you mentioned. A month or so ago I asked people on this list about nursing clothing. Like you, I couldn't find a way to adapt most periods to nursing unless I planned to "bare all," which I didn't. What I finally did was adopt a pattern from Elizabeth Lee Designs (she makes nursing patterns, and she has a web site). The dress as-is has a dropped waist, straight gathered skirt, and long or short sleeves, with a panel covering a central nursing slit over a square body. I made a "cotehardie" out of red linen/cotton (I know, apparently no one wore linen for outer garments, but I intend to eventually recycle it for an underdress). In the late fourteenth century, unfitted cotehardies with a separate skirt hanging from a hip seam were a less-popular variation of the fitted type. I sewed 20 metal buttons down the front of the cover panel to simulate a button front. I chose this option because I knew it would work and I didn't have time for experimentation. It isn't the most beautiful thing I own, but it looks nice. The fit is kind of weird, especially in the arms, which have very low armholes -- I don't think Elizabeth Lee is the world's greatest pattern drafter -- but I recommend it. If I make another, I will work on the fit. (Aside: I have several of her patterns and they all are a little odd fitting. But they are still better than the expensive commercial nursing clothes you find in stores and catalogues, most of which seem to assume you are huge and many of which are also for maternity wear. So a big thank-you to Elizabeth Lee!) Good luck! Gail Finke/Myfanwy, Baroness Flaming Gryphon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:51:34 -0500 From: Scarlett Subject: Wearing Black Velvet Question Chantal wrote:- >Hello > I recently got a sleeveless, floor length black velvet dress that I >am dying to wear. There is an afternoon 3pm wedding coming up in April. My >mother insists that one cannot wear velvet after winter is over. Is she right? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!! Whatever happened to individuality? If you want to wear that kind of dress then you should (unless of course the bride or bridesmaids are likely to be wearing something similar). I personally wear black velvet all year round, and so do most of my friends, it's a part of personal style. Don't let people tell you what is or isn't appropriate - as long as it isn't scruffy and you feel comfortable in it then it should be fine. Floor length black velvet gowns don't have to look like evening wear, it depends on your hair, make-up and accessories: my house mate regularly wears similar things into university and doesn't look at all out of place. It's all a qwuestion of being comfortable enough with yourself that you don't feel you have to comform with standards that are not your own. GO AHEAD - WEAR IT. (sorry if I ranted a bit, it's just something I feel very strongly about). love'n'things, Anita xxxx ---------------------------------------------------------- " I found myself in the Comfort of the Southern again, Well, hell is coming to breakfast - you'd better make some space." ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:51:47 -0500 From: Scarlett Subject: 1870's Birtish Army Uniform Dale wrote: >Does anyone have any idea where I could find patterns for British Army >uniforms form the 1870's? Try contacting the V&A museum: they probably won't have any themselves, but are likely to know of a source. Other than that, what about the army themselves? They have a number of museums of such things, and archives - you never know what they might have kept. love'n'things, Anita xxxx ---------------------------------------------------------- " I found myself in the Comfort of the Southern again, Well, hell is coming to breakfast - you'd better make some space." ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:51:53 -0500 From: Allyson Tripp Rozell Subject: Re: cadas, and infant's clothes question >On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, Allyson Tripp Rozell wrote: >> According to the OED, cadas is an obs. spelling of caddis. >> First definition, "cotton wool, floss silk, or the like, used in padding." > >> "cadarce" is defined by R. Cotgrave in "Dictionarie of the French and >> English Tongues" to be "the tow or coarsest part of silke, whereof sleaue >> is made." > >So would it be reasonable to suppose that "cadarce" is basically silk >noil (the short bits of the cocoon, used in cheaper silk fabric)? That's what I'm guessing. > >Thanks for posting this entry -- and when did Cotgrave publish his >Dictionarie? I wondered this myself. The OED quotes his definition, but they just give author and title of the work, no date. > >Cynthia Allyson Tripp Rozell atripp@sfu.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:51:57 -0500 From: Robin Findlay Subject: Re: Pattern Drafting Programs I have used fittingly sew for almost two years. I know that it is no longer being sold. I hope whoever bought the rights will bring out a new version. I saw it demonstrated at american college theatre festival and was so impressed i found the lady who invented it and got her to sell me one of her remaining copys. The program is very easy to use. It shows you by picture where to measure and enter it. I had to only reenter information once since using this program. It has a sloper,skirt, pants,and sleeve. you can alter the waist line to get period looks necklines to make them any shape you wast. sleeves can bbe altered to make bishop or leg'o' muffin shapes. it will print out the patterns on any printer. I have a HP 81/2 x 11 plain paper printer you then tape the pager together to make the patterns. I have used it to make both male and female patterns. I have done playboyof the western world, Merry wives of windsor, the three musketeers, white liars. I have to make very few alterations to the garments on the first fitting. I save a lot of time and mistakes with the program. I wish i owned it. Best Wishes Robin ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Walter Robin Findlay Phone: 816-271-4452 Associate Professor of Theatre E-mail:findlay@griffon.mwsc.edu Missouri Western State College Fax: 816-232-0978 4525 Downs Drive Voice Mail: 816-387-3117 St. Joseph, Mo. 64507 is that all there is........ peggy lee ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:53:34 -0500 From: Carol Kocian Subject: Cavalier Hat Dawn Hunt asked about her cavalier hat with the wavy edge. Sorry, I couldn't quote it, the digest was too big this time! (but I'm very happy the list is back) Anyway, the wavy edge is from the tacks or clamps used to stretch the brim flat when the hat was blocked to shape. Yes, you can (and should!) cut off that wavy edge. Sharp scissors should do the job. If this is what I'm thinking, the hat is felt and no ravelling will occur. -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 25 Mar 1997 to 26 Mar 1997 **************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Apr 01 10:53:30 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA08205 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 28 Mar 1997 07:28:43 +0100 Message-Id: <199703280628.AA08205@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <7.20910B89@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 7:28:42 +0100 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 00:02:03 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 26 Mar 1997 to 27 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 16 messages totalling 501 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. US Model 1871 shako 2. fichu shape - 1779 or so (2) 3. 1870's Birtish Army Uniform 4. Comfort and Clothing 5. Norman Gown ??? (2) 6. Regency Responses 7. cadas, and infant's clothes question 8. antique bobbin? 9. British Army Uniforms (2) 10. 1870s British Army Uniforms? 11. clothing book 12. old bones/joints and reenactments 13. Hemp cloth ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:06:55 -0500 From: "Doris J. Nash" Subject: Re: US Model 1871 shako At 04:41 PM 3/26/97 -0500, you wrote: >If anyone is aware of a supplier of reproduction US Model 1871 Infantry >shako, I'd appreciate the information. >Thanks! >Cricket Bauer > A couple of possibilities: Col. Bubbie's Strand Surplus Senter 2202 Strand Galveston, TX 77550 409-762-7397 Fax 409-762-7396 and: U.S. Cavalry 2855 Centennial Ave. Radcliff, KY 40160-9000 Customer Service # 1-800-333-5102 Good luck! Doris Doris Nash Costume Shop Supervisor, Iowa State University "...with ruffs and cuffs, and farthingales and things." --Shakespeare, The Taming of the Shrew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:06:58 -0500 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: fichu shape - 1779 or so Ed Safford & Carol Kocian wrote: > > Since we're hashing out terms, Angela Burnley wrote, > > >Yes, there is documentation for the triangular modesty panel.... > > When does the term "modesty panel" date from? I haven't seen it in > 18thC sources, and it sounds like a Victorian sentiment. Angela, do you > have an 18thC source for the term? > > -Carol Kocian Dictionry of English Costume 900-1900 (Cunnington) says Modesty Piece 18th c. A strip of lce or lace-edged linen pinned ot the corset in fromt to cover the "pit of the bosom" in a low decolletage. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:07:15 -0500 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: 1870's Birtish Army Uniform Scarlett wrote: > > Dale wrote: > > >Does anyone have any idea where I could find patterns for British Army > >uniforms form the 1870's? > > Try contacting the V&A museum: they probably won't have any > themselves, but are likely to know of a source. Other than that, what > about the army themselves? They have a number of museums of such > things, and archives - you never know what they might have kept. > > love'n'things, > Anita > xxxx > ---------------------------------------------------------- > " I found myself in the Comfort of the Southern again, > Well, hell is coming to breakfast - > you'd better make some space." > ---------------------------------------------------------- tyr Felicity J. Warnes who runs a bookshop in Enfield that specializes in military books, etc. (she also does a lot with fashion & patterns) felicity@fjwarnes.u-net.com ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:08:10 -0500 From: don and carolyn richardson Subject: Re: Comfort and Clothing > > Lord Ras replied to a question on fabrics as follows: > > > > This 'myth' keeps surfacing and I keep refuting it - you are only talking > > about a degree or two, which may be significant for geographers, but are > not > > going to make a great deal of difference in clothing terms. Plus, the > > strongest evidence for the freezing of the Thames is 17th century, after > > this 'cold' spell referred to. One or two degrees it may have been, but as any geographer or meteorologist can tell you, there was only about a 9 degree (fahrenheit) difference between average temperatures today and The Great Ice Age when ice sheets covered most of America and Europe. Small difference in temperature - big difference in results. The 'mini ice age' of the period was no "myth". One of the reasons why scientists are currently concerned about a potential one or two degree difference in average temperature (higher) from the greenhouse gases - it sounds insignificant, but it might not be in results. Carolyn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:09:43 -0500 From: Ed Safford & Carol Kocian Subject: Re: fichu shape - 1779 or so >>Carol Kocian wrote: >> When does the term "modesty panel" date from? I haven't seen it in >> 18thC sources, and it sounds like a Victorian sentiment. Angela, do you >> have an 18thC source for the term? R.L. Shep replied, >Dictionary of English Costume 900-1900 (Cunnington) says > >Modesty Piece 18th c. A strip of lace or lace-edged linen pinned at the >corset in front to cover the "pit of the bosom" in a low decolletage. Which sounds like something different than a kerchief or fichu. I had heard somewhere else about a ruffle that was pinned just at the stomacher; that's what this sounds like. -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:09:50 -0500 From: Margritte Subject: Norman Gown ??? Good Gentles All-- As my costuming library is rather sparce at the moment, I would appreciate any suggestions for books dealing with 11th through 13th century clothing, especially in England and Wales. I am more interested in how the original garments were actually put together than in theatrical copies. One book that I have invested in is "A History of Costume" by Carl Kohler. It shows a German gown on pg. 140-141 that is the right period for what I want (12th cent). The description runs in part: "...in order to emphasize the outline of the breasts the front of the overgarment was made in two pieces, the lower one being cut away each side, so that a peak ran up between the breasts. At the top was sewn a piece of material longer and broader than the excisions, and this fell from the neck to the breasts. By sewing together these two pieces from the peak toward both sides, bag or purse-shaped enlargements for the breasts were produced." (I know this probably will be gibberish to anyone not looking at the picture, and I apologize). Can anyone confirm or deny that this was the common practice in gowns of this era? Was this only in Germany, or was it also done in England? I haven't found anything similar in other books I've looked through (mostly borrowed from friends). Am I looking in the wrong places? Also, in looking through a borrowed copy of Norris, I saw an undergown that had tiny cords sew in as padding across the shoulders and upper arms. Again, I need to ask, was this a common practice? Many thanks. -Margritte ------------------------------------------------------------ Gryphon's Moon - See us at Fool's War! Request our free catalog of Celtic jewelry. http://www.mindspring.com/~maclain/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:09:54 -0500 From: Robin Bryan Subject: Regency Responses Subject: Regency Responses Thanks to all who replied concerning my request for favorite sources on Regency clothing. My bibliography is coming along, and I will share it with anyone interested. I have enjoyed the various topics discussed, and many offered sources which would apply to my request. Deb, in response to the "fichu" question, the "handkerchief" , "buffon", and "fichu" are much discussed in the book Shawls, Stoles and Scarves by Alice Mackrell, edited by Dr. Aileen Ribeiro. I found them described as square for the period you are asking about, but you may find some additional information if you read the book. Thanks all! Robin Bryan TBearsGirl@msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:09:58 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: Re: cadas, and infant's clothes question Hello again, Cynthia, Sometimes I forget to look at an address of a reply, unless I'm going to say something private. In this case, it probably doesn't matter--I don't think anything I said would enrich the list. ;-) I have some silk noil that I'm making into mundane garments. It occurred to me that it might make very nice summer SCA garb, especially as so many portraits are painted without any sheen to the fabric. A tabby woven silk wouldn't have the satin weave glow to it, although they might well have used a better grade than noil. Oh, would that Lyn could shop with 'Allison's' supposed purse! Don't remember from your posts whether you are an SCA member. Bishop Geoffrey said in a class that he sends away for silk noil and uses it all the time. I paid the outrageous price for Sew News this evening so that I could look for the source he uses or another--don't remember the name. Linthicum, who always finds the most obscure citations--the woman must have read every shipping list, will, city ordinance, et al, in England--doesn't maention a silk noil, but does talk about raw silk imported into England in 1592, in a number of grades, including 'ends'. Surely, they were thrifty enough to weave even the short bits into less expensive fabric, and sell it to lords for livery, or merchants, or poor knight's families, or ladies at home in 'respectable' gowns. I think I will post this to the list, to see what others think of silk noil. Regards, Allison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:10:02 -0500 From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: antique bobbin? On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Deborah Wooten wrote: > Hi I am looking for a bobbin for an 1930 White sewing machine. > It kinda looks like a torpeedo > Thanks, > Debbie > I think the rocket bobbin goes back in White machines to the 1880's, so you may have a wider field of search than you think. (Still not all that common, of course.) Margaret Weller ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:10:06 -0500 From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: British Army Uniforms Apologies for not remembering who originally asked about 1870's British Army uniforms but... I doubt that the V & A would have information on uniforms but I know that the National Army Museum (I think that's the right name - not the Imperial War Museum) in London has pattern books etc which I believe date to this period. You'd have to get special permission to see them I think as they're not usually on display but it can easily be done and (without re-entering the discussion on photocopying in libraries) I think they might supply copies if asked nicely. There are regimental museums all over the place. Contact me off list if you need more help but I won't be back in the office until 7th April. Best wishes, Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:10:09 -0500 From: "Chandler, Sally A." Subject: British Army Uniforms I found the following information hidden away in my files. Apologies for repeating the whole message but I think it tells a story. I hope it is of interest. Best wishes, Sally Ann Chandler The Historical Clothing Company s.a.chandler@shu.ac.uk I thought you might like to know that the >National Army Museum in London now has its own site. Its URL is: > >http://www.failte.com/nam/ > >I also attach some information about the new exhibit which >I am sure will be of great interest > >'The Rise of the Redcoat' is a new permanent exhibition which will >open at the Museum on Tuesday 3 December 1996. It will tell the story >of the British Army from the archers of Agincourt to the redcoats of >the American War of Independence. Exhibits will range from a 16 foot >long Tudor cannon to the Duke of Cumberland's signet ring, as well as >English Civil War arms and armour. There will also be displays of 18th >century equipment and uniforms, including a remarkable collection of >beautifully embroidered grenadier caps. Visitors will be able to try >on a Civil War helmet, feel the weight of a 17th century cannonball >and listen to recordings of contemporary soldiers' songs. > >A number of life size reconstructions will depict soldiers from the >period. These will include: >An English archer, suffering from dysentery, at Agincourt, 1415. >A Burgundian handgunner, fighting for the Yorkists at the battle of >St Albans, 1461. >A Parliamentarian Foot Soldier based on the letters of Nehemiah >Wharton, a Sergeant in the Army of the Earl of Essex, 1642. >Captain Richard Atkins, a Royalist cavalryman, whose account of his >part in the battle of Roundway Down, 1643, is one of the most >remarkable descriptions of hand-to-hand combat ever written. >A Queen's Ranger from the American War of Independence, 1780. >Raised as light infantry, the Queen's Rangers fought with considerable >success on the British side. > >The opening of this Gallery will mean that a visitor to the Museum >will be able to trace the story of the British soldier from the >15th century to the end of the Second World War, as well as seeing >displays on more recent conflicts, including the Falklands, the >Gulf and Bosnia. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:10:12 -0500 From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: 1870s British Army Uniforms? Dale wrote: >Does anyone have any idea where I could find patterns for British Army >uniforms form the 1870's? Anita replied >Try contacting the V&A museum: they probably won't have any >themselves, but are likely to know of a source. Other than that, what >about the army themselves? They have a number of museums of such >things, and archives - you never know what they might have kept. Well, 19th century military history is certainly not my period, but ... Another source would surely be the Imperial War Museum. However, I think in this period you're not really talking about a 'British Army uniform' at all, you are talking about regimental uniforms (I don't think army uniforms come in until, what - the First World War? - conscription?). Now, these regiments would certainly have kept information about the specific uniforms worn by various ranks at various times, but most of them have been merged over the last few years, so I'm not sure what they would have kept, or how to identify which regiment to write to. I think the first step would be to identify which regiment you are interested in (and which rank(s)) and track down the modern representative regiment and write to them. Secondly, most regiments had some kind of relationship with a specific county (often a recruitment/money base) mentioned in their names (Royal Lancastrians springs to mind, but I might well be wrong). Anyway, the local county museums are often stacked high with regimental flags, uniforms, drums, guns and other bits and pieces, memorabilia to do with conquering the Empire (memories of boring Sunday afternoons here). Even if they are no longer on display, the museums will probably have them. Again, you would need to be talking about specific regiments. A third source(!) might relate to an individual concerned in particular events. If you can identify a particular individual officer, someone like Lord Cardigan, say, and track down his family and the family seat, it is not uncommon for the surviving family to have memorabilia of the individual. This is of course assuming that the family survives and so does the house. Again, tours round stately homes show lots of stuff from the 19th century. Hope this helps! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:03:11 -0500 From: Cathy Johnson Subject: clothing book I've been trying to find a copy of Diana de Marly's _Working Dress, A History of Occupational Clothing_; Holmes and Meier, NY, 1986. I've had it from the library, but would like my own copy. Some interesting info in there, covering pre-1600 through 20th C., but pretty good stuff on 17th and 18th C.--anyone know where I could find one? Thanks-- Regards, Kate ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:03:17 -0500 From: Eileen Watson Subject: old bones/joints and reenactments I realize this is not on fashion, but... I have an event coming up-- too soon for my sewing schedule of course, but I would like to know if any of you have run across any mention of any documentation on what natural preperations or herbs or ??? were used for aching joints during the first half of the 19th and later part of the 18th ? Some how dressing from the skin out in the correct attire and then smelling like the trainer's area of a gym locker room just doesn't sit well with me. Any ideas? Or do I just have to grin and bear it? Thanks for your help, Eileen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:03:28 -0500 From: "Jeffrey Hedgecock, Gwen Nowrick" Subject: Hemp cloth Greetings all! Does anyone have a good source (domestic or otherwise) for hemp cloth? I know 1-800-GET-HEMP and Hemp textiles International, but both are rather spendy. I need 100% hemp, hemp/flax, hemp/silk or will settle for hemp/cotton if necessary in shirt weight. Thanks! Gwen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:03:43 -0500 From: "Jeffrey Hedgecock, Gwen Nowrick" Subject: Re: Norman Gown ??? Margritte: Lots of fabulous research has been done since both Kohler and Norris published their books. Try to get your hands on books published in the last 20 years or less. Lots of "dead guys" have been found/excavated/examined and the construction/materials used have been published. I like the book "The development of Costume" by Naomi Tarrant (ISBN 0-415-08018-5) I got mine at the Met in NY, but I should think you could get it through Barnes & Noble. It's going to run you about $35, but it's a wonderful volume. It cites lots of extant garments for the patterns, and gives a good overview of fibres, weaving, colors, etc. Good luck! Gwen ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 26 Mar 1997 to 27 Mar 1997 **************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Apr 01 10:53:30 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA10973 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 29 Mar 1997 06:23:40 +0100 Message-Id: <199703290523.AA10973@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <5.34D3929F@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Sat, 29 Mar 1997 6:23:40 +0100 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 00:03:18 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 27 Mar 1997 to 28 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 10 messages totalling 431 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. infant and nursing wear 2. old bones/joints and reenactments 3. fichu shape - 1779 or so 4. sewing items 5. Silk Noil, Now no flaming folks!! 6. cadas, and infant's clothes question 7. Norman Gown ??? 8. Herbal relief for old bones & joints 9. Princess Bride 10. Ear trumpets ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:02:46 -0500 From: Allyson Tripp Rozell Subject: infant and nursing wear Thanks to those who have responded to my query on infant and nursing wear, for mid-11th century England. In case anyone cares, it looks like I'll probably go with a long linen shift for the baby, and I'll try to make it adjustable enough to accomodate growth spurts, and later a toddler. I will likely also do a linen cap, and a wool wrap for warmth. (The event in August, while known for being warm and sunny, has been cold and rainy since I started attending it two years ago.) For myself, I like the idea of using the poncho-type cloak typical of 11th century as a cover-up for nursing. It's typically about waist length in front, and long in back, so it covers well, and should be fairly convenient to bring the baby completely underneath it. I'll have to look for a light-weight and light-color wool to do it with, so I can use it in summer, and indoors. Underneath that, I'll just need a kirtle and shift that have a front opening at least to the waist, which shouldn't be hard to do, tho I haven't actually seen any from that time period. If I want to go without the coverup, I may use a sideless surcoat, which is a somewhat later period (more 13th century), but fashion in England wasn't really changing radically during that time anyway, so much of my earlier things will adapt to later times. Thanks again! Allyson Tripp Rozell atripp@sfu.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:03:05 -0500 From: "R.L. Shep" Subject: Re: old bones/joints and reenactments Eileen Watson wrote: > > I realize this is not on fashion, but... > I have an event coming up-- too soon for my sewing schedule of course, > but I would like to know if any of you have run across any mention of any > documentation on what natural preperations or herbs or ??? were used for > aching joints during the first half of the 19th and later part of the 18th ? > Some how dressing from the skin out in the correct attire and then smelling > like the trainer's area of a gym locker room just doesn't sit well with me. > Any ideas? Or do I just have to grin and bear it? > Thanks for your help, Eileen It is not period - but have your tried Pycnogenol? You take 1 mg for every pound you weigh per day. I have been using it for some time now. And since I have been fighting off a Lyme Disease infection from a tick bite (the last 4 weeks) it has been a Godsend. It also does not smell. ~!~ R.L. Shep ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:03:11 -0500 From: Jim and Angela Burnley Subject: Re: fichu shape - 1779 or so In a message dated 97-03-27 10:03:38 EST, shepgibb@mcn.org (R.L. Shep) writes: << Ed Safford & Carol Kocian wrote: > > Since we're hashing out terms, Angela Burnley wrote, > > >Yes, there is documentation for the triangular modesty panel.... > > When does the term "modesty panel" date from? I haven't seen it in > 18thC sources, and it sounds like a Victorian sentiment. Angela, do you > have an 18thC source for the term? > > -Carol Kocian < Dictionary of English Costume 900-1900 (Cunnington) says >Modesty Piece 18th c. A strip of lace or lace-edged linen pinned ot the > corset in front to cover the "pit of the bosom" in a low decolletage. To Carol*****No, no documentation, just a modern word that myself and others have used in casual conversation when referring to the "fichu", neck hankerchief, neckerchief or what have you. I am not as versed in the victorian era so I bow to those of you who are for a possible victorian use. Many apologies for allowing my modern slang to slip into list discussion. To R.L. Shep***** You are correct in your definition of "modesty piece", see Ann Buck and Elizabeth McClellan for starters. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:03:14 -0500 From: cynthia & kirk gisiner Subject: sewing items I am interested in making several sewing kits that will span from early 1600 to 1860's for living history events. Does anyone have any suggestions about contents and how they were carried (basket, box, chatelaine etc.) Also what type of 'stretcher' was used (example; the circular ring to keep fabic tight while doing embroidery.) thanks, -cyn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:04:17 -0500 From: No Name Subject: Re: Silk Noil, Now no flaming folks!! >From Allison: <> Here is a response I got from asking why someone would use a slubby fabric a few weeks ago. I am still interested in others opinions, but I think this may be a case where both answers are "right" Surely someone would make use of the "rougher stuff", but "a lady" probably wouldn't be caught in public wearing it. There had to be a strata in society where some had enough money where they never needed to wear anything practical (Gee, like maybe the Queen?) yet surely there were those who did enough of their own work necessitating more practical clothing. So maybe you wouldn't use it for the dress you wear to "court events" or what ever you call them, but perhaps at the "camp following events"???? Always open to more opinions, V. R. Saragrace This is MaggiRos' response: <<. . . .I think I'll leave colour to the dyers on the list, but certainly if we're talking 16th century, yes. Fabric should not be slubby. Many people are happy to use noile because ( I presume) the colors are so vibrant and (I think) because it looks suitable to the past, where, as we know, no one did anything as well as they can do it now. <==please read sarcasm here. I wouldn't use noile at all, given the choice. Silk charmeuse--just as expensive, just as gorgeous, and a heavier hand--works well for lining under slashes and I think looks richer to the modern eye and should look better to the historical eye. For less expensive, heavy faille works very well and also comes in gorgeous colors. I don't think an Elizabethan lady of appearance would even think of wearing something that she thought looked as if it had come off a peasant loom, still twiggy and unfinished. They did other odd things (tuft taffeta has sprigged puts raised from the surface) but the silks are very fine. Pardon the tirade. I've been losing this battle with the costume department for a long time. Happily, lives and careers are not at stake. Just my personal sensilbility and aesthetic. Hope this all made sense!>> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:04:40 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: Re: cadas, and infant's clothes question On Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:21:34 -0800 (PST) Cynthia Virtue writes: >Hi Allison, > >Yep, I'm in the SCA; started out in Boston a dozen years ago, and am >now >near SF. > >The raw silk you mention may be silk ready for spinning, but without >more >information, i don't know. I think it likely that someone would make >fabric out of the noil ends -- but I expect it would be a local sort >of >'rag cloth' that wouldn't get exported since its purchase value would >not >be worth the shipping value. This is just theory, mind you! It makes sense, and I agree. I didn't think that silk noil or its equivalent would be shipped from the far, or even near east. That's why I went looking for the shipping reports. "England imported most of her supply of silk by the piece, but some raw silk was imported even in the fifteenth century. (1) (1)Port Bk. Southampton, 136ff. In 1592-3 over 20,000 of organzine, long raw, short raw, and silk nubs were brought into the port of London alone,. (2) the total subsidy being over L2,250. (2) Hatfield MSS, iv. 575. Thrown silk is formed of two or more singles being twisted together in a direction contrary to that in which the singles of which it is compoed are twisted. This process is called organzining, and the silk so twisted, organzined." So, this gets it into country, where local weaving can make use of those bits. Trouble is, although she lists a number of different kinds of silk, none of them have a description matching silk noil. May we hope she didn't because it wasn't the 'good stuff'? None of this helps get me 'authentically' into an Italian Ren in silk noil. But it beats polyester cotton! I've >assumed >that the non-shiny fabrics from the pictures are probably woolens of >one >variety or other; I think that noil may bee a good substitute in this >case. Lord knows I'd die in California summers with wool on, despite >my >wishes to look accurate! I think it's wool, too. We know that wool and fine silk were used for the clothing of nobility, and we know from artists' records that they sometimes painted folks in better clothing than they actually had, so why, if you had an infeior gown of silk noik, would you choose to be painted in that one? Just mutter under your breath, "I'm not being painted today..." ;-) I want to look accurate, too, but I am in great favor of good sense. > >Unfortunately, I can't read your message and reply at the same time "You need Juno", said she, smiling smugly, flipping easily between 'Read' and 'Write'. signup@juno.com >(on >telnet at the moment, so if I've missed a question, I'll reply again.) > >Best wishes, >Cynthia > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:04:43 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: Re: Norman Gown ??? Margritte, Over the years I've assembled a very good costume library. I don't know of any other gown that is like the one in Kohler. I don't even read him anymore. He is TWO ROOMS AWAY as opposed to the good ones piled all around my computer. I went and got him. He doesn't cite an actual example. It could have been done, but I have no other reason to think it was. Mary G. Houston, in _Medieval Costume in England & France_ begins her work with the 13th C., but she does not show this sophistication of cut even then. The tightness of the lacings were probably the only things that emphasized the breasts, for those who wished to do that. Milia Davenport's _Book of Costume_ has a number of black and white pictures of each of the main European countries of our period. On p. 123 there is a German woman's costume that I like and wear, except that I usually do not put in back lacing for the form fitting effect. p. 137 shows some bliauts from which Kohler might have gotten the idea, but in modern versions, that is a sort of corset on the outside of the gown. On p. 141, the foolish virgins have lines drawn on their clothes, indicating breasts, but the assumption is that these are Byzantine style garments. That pouch didn't appear in Byzantine costume. Houston, _Ancient Greek, Roman and Byzantine Costume and Decoration_. She goes up to the start of her Medieval book in that one. _Dress in Anglo-Saxon England_, Gale Owen-Crocker, is a little early, ends with 11th C. There was communication between the Anglo-Saxons and the Normans. She doesn't list it in archiological evidence. There's a LOT of Norris; could you be more specific as to the citation? I can't think of your example as common practice, though. Always glad to talk costuming-- Allison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:05:37 -0500 From: "Diana H." Subject: Herbal relief for old bones & joints Eileen Watson wrote: > > I realize this is not on fashion, but... > I have an event coming up-- too soon for my sewing schedule of course, > but I would like to know if any of you have run across any mention of any > documentation on what natural preperations or herbs or ??? were used for > aching joints during the first half of the 19th and later part of the 18th ? > Some how dressing from the skin out in the correct attire and then smelling > like the trainer's area of a gym locker room just doesn't sit well with me. > Any ideas? Or do I just have to grin and bear it? > Thanks for your help, Eileen Well, I do have a few suggestions for you although I can't pinpoint most of them as far as when they were used. I believe that they all derive from earlier time periods than you are looking for. So, here goes..... You can either make an extract/linament or take them as a tea. Extracts of MEADOWSWEET, WHITE WILLOW BARK, and WINTERGREEN all contain salicylates, the active ingredient in aspirin. One recipie (undocumented) is to take 1 cup white cider vinegar and mix it with 1/2 tsp. of wintergreen oil. Shake well and apply to sore joints. WARNING: wintergreen oil is highly toxic if taken internally. Seal tightly and keep well away from CHILDREN. I am sure that if you made a tincture of the other two and added it to a lotion base, you would get decent results. Just apply to sore joints. I am not quite sure about the absorption rate through the skin, but I suppose you could just experiment. For a tea, which seems like much less work with faster results, you can take Meadowsweet or White Willow Bark and steep it like you would any other tea and drink it. It would be the equivalent of taking some aspirin. As long as you are not allergic to aspirin and you have no bleeding disorders (or take blood thinners already), you should be just fine. I suppose the effects would last a few hours at a time. You body will tell you when it't time to take more. One of my favorite teas, which I call my *health tea* is to take Meadowsweet, Peppermint (which is good for digestion and flatulence), and Rose Hips (high in vit. C and tangy) and steep them together. Then add a little sugar (if you have a real sweet tooth like me) and drink. It is a nice flavor and goes down easily. And if you really want to be super authentic, you can make some linen or muslin tea bags and reuse them. For historical reference, Meadowsweet was the first plant that salicylic acid was derived from. This was done in 1835. And it was popular with Queen Elizabeth I for its sweet, almond-like aroma. It tastes good, too. Willow bark has been used since the heyday of Ancient Greece. Dioscorides was noted as the first to describe the power of the willow bark to reduce fever and pain. This was written in the first century, A.D.. In the 1830's, salicin and salicylic acid was derived from the White Willow. In the 1850's, acetylsalicylic acid was first synthesized from salicylic acid and has become what we now think of as aspirin. Wintergreen tea was apparently used by the North American Indian prior to the arrival of the Europeans for rheumatic pains. It, too, has aspirin-like properties. A tea made from the leaves is apparently ok to drink, but the oil is NOT. The oil should be used for external application only. Please note the difference. I hope this helps you in your quest for information. I really enjoy these types of questions because they make me pull out my books and do research. And I usually learn about ten different things I didn't know before! Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:03:08 -0500 From: "Diana H." Subject: Re: Princess Bride Connie Bolton wrote: > > The main man in my life would like me to make an outfit for him similar > to the one worn by Prince Humperdink for his wedding. Is this at all > period? If so, what time period would it be? Would there be any > changes that would make it look a little more period? What > fabrics/colours would be suitable. Dear Connie, Believe it or not, Humperdink's outfits are quite well designed and are examples of short men's houppelandes (haincelins) that stem from the 15th century mainland Europe. There are many examples of them in *20,000 Years of Fashion* by Francois Boucher. You will find examples on pages 207 (ill. 390), 210 (ill. 399 & 400), 211 (although there is some speculation about the authenticity of this piece), and 215 (ill. 415). My suspicion based on the costruction and fit of Humperdink's outfit is that it is the Italian style. The French & English versions appear much shorter and more fitted than the one you want. As for fabrics, I would recommend either a light to medium weight wool or a nice cotton velveteen. There is little, if any, trim on this style so the fabric should be pretty nice. There are examples of Italian men in this style wearing a brocaded fabric but I would not recommend this the first time around. Brocade has some special considerations during construction that you probably don't want to deal with at this time. As for colors, all I can give you is broad suggestions. Earth tones, jewel tones (i.e. deep red, green or blue) and shades of gray/black would work. Obviously no glaring colors and pastels are not in vogue for this time period although they did exist to some extent. It is a good idea to look at the various paintings from this time and see what colors they actually wore. This will give you some ideas as well. Also, if you are going to make the split sleeve style, you will need to make an undershirt as well. And the general look seems to be a medium to dark outer fabric with a darker (blue or black) undershirt. Silk would be a nice choice for the undershirt if you can afford it. If not, a nice cotton or linen would work. Have I spouted enough yet? As a side note, the book I mentioned above is a wonderful resource for all periods of costuming. If you do not have it in your library yet, you might want to consider picking it up (not to mention that we refer to it alot on this list). It is well worth the $50 price tag. Rose :~> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:03:39 -0500 From: Maggie Pierce Subject: Ear trumpets I told a friend I'd ask, because someone here will surely know, although I have a feeling I already know the answer... Is there such a thing as an ear trumpet for the hard of hearing in the mid to late 16th century in England? I've never seen such a thing, but I haven't looked for it either. My friend is largely deaf, spends a lot of time at renaissance Faires, and loves hand props. Thanks all. MaggiRos ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 27 Mar 1997 to 28 Mar 1997 **************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Apr 01 10:53:31 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA13274 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 30 Mar 1997 07:18:15 +0200 Message-Id: <199703300518.AA13274@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <6.FF05CFD5@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 7:18:14 +0100 Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 00:01:05 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 28 Mar 1997 to 29 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 9 messages totalling 267 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. textiles protecting against moisture 2. Intro and Archives question 3. Could you help me out? (fwd) 4. old bones/joints and reenactments (3) 5. Hemp cloth 6. hemp cloth 7. Kilt patterns? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 16:09:23 -0500 From: "Erling G. B. Hohler" Subject: textiles protecting against moisture Hello, a while ago somebody asked about the use of oilcloth and when it started. This was answered. Browsing through a book (English textile nomenclature, Leif J. Wilhelmsen) I found a reference to _waxed_ cloth: Jason Caxton, 1475: Her epistle which she rapped in a cered cloth. Wilhelmsen explains that cerecloth and cered cloth are probably the same, and probably a linen that has been waxed. He goes on to say that such cloth was used for swathing corpses. According to Caxton, cered cloth evidently found other uses than swathing corpses. Does anyone on the list know more about it? Inger ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 16:09:47 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Molly_N=EDD=E1na?= Subject: Re: Intro and Archives question Hello, everyone! I'm new to h-costume in the past few weeks, and have been entertaining myself going over the archives in minute detail. I've read by topic in 1993-94, and looked at every single posting in 1995, but now I'd like 1996. As far as I can tell, h-costume moved servers sometime in 1996, and I haven't been able to follow the directions in the intro message. Every time I try, this is the message I get: > INDEX H-COSTUME You are not authorized to GET file "H-COSTUM FILELIST" from filelist LISTSERV. What am I doing wrong? (I got the 1993-5 archives off some other web source - great fun) Oh, yes, and while I'm here, I might as well introduce myself - I'm researching 500BCE-500CE Insular Celt (Irish) for a Celtic Reconstructionist Pagan group. Of course, sources ARE limited, but I've started a file of interesting and thought-provoking clips from the archives, and when I've digested them, I'm sure I will have questions. I'm after not only a way to gain more insight into the daily life of my chosen group, but will construct and wear garments in ritual. Any one else out there with this refined interest? (I must admit, there was so much other fascinating material I'm in great danger of getting sidetracked into making a few other period costumes just for fun.) I started sewing on a treadle machine about 30 years ago, and used to make all my own clothes in the frivolous '60s, but haven't done much for a long time, being diverted into knitting and spinning (and earning a living). I'm delighted to be amongst such interesting people. Oh, one more thing (thanks for bearing with me) can anyone tell me off hand if copies were ever produced for US distribution of the Dark Age booklet written by Jennifer Bray? I'd very much like to buy a copy, if so. Thanks in advance, Molly N=EDD=E1na mnidana@netbox.com San Francisco, California ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 16:10:38 -0500 From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Could you help me out? (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:25:24 -0500 From: Susan Fyock To: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Could you help me out? Hello. I'm a senior marketing major attending Indiana University of Pennsylvania. I'm in the mist of a retailing project where my group is designing a plan for implementing an entertainment/fun center in our town. The theme is the traditional Medieval Knights. What I need now is to find info on apparel for the employees to wear. Any info at all that you can provide me on this subject is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for you help! Susan from IUP ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 16:10:47 -0500 From: "Erling G. B. Hohler" Subject: Re: old bones/joints and reenactments At 14:03 27.03.97 -0500, Eileen Watson wrote: >I realize this is not on fashion, but... >I have an event coming up-- too soon for my sewing schedule of course, >but I would like to know if any of you have run across any mention of any >documentation on what natural preperations or herbs or ??? were used for >aching joints during the first half of the 19th and later part of the 18th= ? > Some how dressing from the skin out in the correct attire and then= smelling >like the trainer's area of a gym locker room just doesn't sit well with me. >Any ideas? Or do I just have to grin and bear it? >Thanks for your help, Eileen I think I can help you on that. I'm a pharmacist by profession with an intrest (among others) in historical pharmacy. I warn you that many of the substances which produce the desired relief - and smell -may cause allergy (dermatites). They act by irritating the skin anyway. If you intend prolonged exposure, or if you have allergy problems, it is possible you should cheat and protect your skin with some kind of chemical glove before applying the smelly dressing over the joint. Turpentine may be the dominant smell you're after. (This was used in sevral unguents with wax as a base. Wax has a smell of its own, but I don't think it would be appearent through the turpentine. I've never made this, though.) Otherwise I can recommend (?) diluted ammonia, the diluent being spirits. Ammonia is still an important ingredient in some lotions and spirits sold commercially in Norway against joint aches. Sometimes it is, and was, mixed with camphor. Believe me, it stinks. I once made 20 l of this liniment in a small room without air condition in the summer. Never again! Or have I misunderstood you, and you're asking for pain relief without the smell? If so, I'm afraid there is nothing I could reccomend ecxept modern medicine because of either low effect or possible side effects of former preparations. (Yes, opium works well, but it's something of an overkill, don't you think? All else aside, you don't want the obstipation to go with it. Salicylic acid works well for pain relief, except for its liability to give ulcers. It is much worse than acetyl salicylic acid in this respect. You hardly want to trade one kind of pain for another. Phenacetin -still in use- isn't really the preferred sustance against joint aches.) Acetylsalicylic acid (the substance of "Disprin" and the like) was known in Norway in 1913, and tablets were being made on an industrial scale from it at least during the latter part of the period you mentioned. It'll be OK historically to pop a tablet or down a powder with a glass of water. We're a bit backwards here. I should think tablets were available in your country even earlier. If you keep tablets in a period box, too, everything should be fine.=20 These remedies have been used widely in Europe for a long time. If you want to, I can mail you the true recepies for liniments and unguents from "Pharmacopoea Norvegica 1879" and "Den Norske Farmakop=F8 1913". If you're intrested, I collect books on Nordic medicines, including some deodorants and perfumes from the latter half of the 16.th century and onwards. I can translate the recepies here too. At any rate, good luck with your joints! Inger ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 16:10:51 -0500 From: Roxann Barber Subject: Re: Hemp cloth Jeffrey Hedgecock, Gwen Nowrick wrote: > > Greetings all! > Does anyone have a good source (domestic or otherwise) for hemp cloth? > Gwen Try Dahrma Trading Co. They supply 3 types of hemp cloth to art to wear artists, no colors, just white or natural.(they sell procion dyes too) Price depends on quantity. Hemp/silk (60/40) is around $14 US for 1-9 yards,hemp linen canvas $17 and hemp muslin $13 Samples are $0.25. Sorry I don't have any address or numbers! If you e-mail me I will get it from my artist friend. I have not seen the fabrics so I cannot tell you about quality. Roxy Barber ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 16:11:11 -0500 From: Roxann Barber Subject: hemp cloth here is the phone for Dharma Trading Co. (800) 542-5227 or www.dharmatrading.com you can request a free catalog ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 16:12:09 -0500 From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: old bones/joints and reenactments On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Eileen Watson wrote: ^ I would like to know if any of you have run across any mention of any > documentation on what natural preperations or herbs or ??? were used for > aching joints during the first half of the 19th and later part of the 18th ? > Some how dressing from the skin out in the correct attire and then smelling > like the trainer's area of a gym locker room just doesn't sit well with me. > Any ideas? Or do I just have to grin and bear it? > Thanks for your help, Eileen > Margaret Weller here-- Check out some Victorian herbals; some of them have bruise cream recipes. They might help your problem; I used to have an arthritic finger joint that is no longer arthritic. Not sure how far the cream penetrates; it might work better on fingers than hips; dunno. If you decide to make your own (instead of checking out your local herbalist) remember that comfrey should not be cooked at temps higher than 150 degrees or so, as alantoin (the active ingredient) decomposes at high temps. Incidently, it cuts the healing time of bruises about in half. Works better the quicker it gets on the bruise. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 16:12:19 -0500 From: Dennis Allen Carr Subject: Kilt patterns? Anyone on this list that can tell me how to build a kilt, or point me in the right direction? --- Dennis Allen Carr KE6ISF outlander!ke6isf@ccss.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 16:13:24 -0500 From: StrangeGirl Subject: Re: old bones/joints and reenactments Hmmm. This is a tough question, since i don't know what *kind* of muscle/joint aches you are having. I would suggest going to the local health food store and asking what they use for the same type of aches, or if you are lucky enough to have an herbal pharmacy in your area, consulting them. Most Modern herbal medicine is correct to the 18th and 19th centuries, although it would have been primarily 'home remedy' type medicine (mustard plasters, herbal compresses) including what sort of foods your mother/grandmother/housekeeper/nurse taught you to feed sick people. 'Doctor's Medicine' was fairly primitive and often more harmful than helpful. Good references are: The Family Medical Herbal, Kitty Campion. From Barnes and Noble Press. The Complete Medicinal Herbal, Penelope Ody. From Dorling Kindersly. The American Frugal Housewife, Mrs. Child. From Applewood Books. http://www.awb.com/awb.html Good Luck! Maureen -- ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 28 Mar 1997 to 29 Mar 1997 **************************************************** From ???@??? Tue Apr 01 10:53:31 1997 Received: from segate.sunet.se by mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE with SMTP id AA16177 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 31 Mar 1997 09:11:29 +0200 Message-Id: <199703310711.AA16177@mail.math.TU-Berlin.DE> Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <4.FA6A1C4A@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Mon, 31 Mar 1997 9:11:27 +0100 Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 00:01:29 -0500 Reply-To: Historic Costume List Sender: Historic Costume List From: Automatic digest processor Subject: H-COSTUME Digest - 29 Mar 1997 to 30 Mar 1997 To: Recipients of H-COSTUME digests There are 6 messages totalling 148 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. stockings & straw bonnets 2. Intro and Archives question (2) 3. hemp source... 4. old bones/joints and reenactments 5. Kiltmaking ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:00:38 -0500 From: cynthia & kirk gisiner Subject: stockings & straw bonnets Looking for a source for silk stockings rather than cotton or cotton/wool that would be correct for periods ranging from 1600-1860's. Also any interesting stockings other than the usual plain/striped/clockwork stocking found at Williamburg. Another request: looking for affordable straw bonnets 18th and 19th centuries. thanks, -cyn ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:00:49 -0500 From: Sue & Ted Subject: Re: Intro and Archives question Are members of this list aware that there are archives at reference com? http://www.reference.com Use the advanced search for specific topics. Sue H ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:01:28 -0500 From: Jan Dockery Subject: hemp source... Another source for hemp is: The Hempery PO Box 18 Guysville, Ohio 45735 1-800-BUY-HEMP In their earlier catalogues they sold yardage. The most recent catalogue I have only has ready-to-wear items. You might want to call to verify whether they still offer yardage. jan d ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:01:32 -0500 From: Roxann Barber Subject: Re: Intro and Archives question Molly N=EDD=E1na wrote: > = > Hello, everyone! I'm new to h-costume in the past few weeks, and have > been entertaining myself going over the archives in minute detail. > I've read by topic in 1993-94, and looked at every single posting in > 1995, but now I'd like 1996. As far as I can tell, h-costume moved > servers sometime in 1996, and I haven't been able to follow the > directions in the intro message. Every time I try, this is the > message I get: > = > > INDEX H-COSTUME > You are not authorized to GET file "H-COSTUM FILELIST" from filelist > LISTSERV. > = > What am I doing wrong? (I got the 1993-5 archives off some other web > source - great fun) > = wow, me too! I thought the old archives were gone, Molly, or anyone, how did you get the old archives? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:01:41 -0500 From: "Sara J. Davitt" Subject: Re: old bones/joints and reenactments > > Turpentine may be the dominant smell you're after. (This was used in sevral > unguents with wax as a base. Wax has a smell of its own, but I don't think > it would be appearent through the turpentine. I've never made this, though.) Waitaminit--- Turpentine is Healthy????.. when mixed with wax???? Being a Painting major.. I will say this.. DO NOT PUT TURPENTINE ON YOUR SKIN!.. it goes right through the skin and into your liver.(and everything else)... we are made to wear gloves in school, because of exposure... AND have state of the art ventilation. This is one period remedy that I would promptly toss out. Besides, in order to get them to mix properly, you must mix them in a double boiler... and the FUMES are really too much to bear. (basically mixing turpentine and Wax is making wax medium for encausic painting, and 1/2 way into melting and mixing, i have to go outside even with the excellent ventilation) OK, Rant over.. Happy Easter! Sarahj ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:01:45 -0500 From: Mickie Erickson Subject: Kiltmaking So, you want to make a kilt? You've got two choices: The Great Kilt (Philamhor) and the Little (or common) Kilt (Philabeg). The book, "So you're going to wear the Kilt" has an excellent section on folding & wearing the Great Kilt. (Take 6 - 8 yds of tartan cloth, pleat the middle over a wide belt, lie down on it, & lap the ends over your front.) Personally, I think that they look sloppy, & they take forever to put on. That's why I made my own Little kilt. Folkwear has(had?) a satisfactory pattern/set of instructions for how to make one. Caveat: You really need to have access to one that's already made to understand some hairy sections in the instrutions. If you can't find the pattern, in 1989 (or 90, but I'm pretty sure it was '89) Threads magazine had an article in one of their spring issues (May? April?) on kiltmaking by the author of the Folkwear pattern. If you've been good, your local library should have it. However, you can do it without the instructions if you have access to one that's been made already. The important thing to remember is that the pleats are sewn individually, you'll use about 3 packets of pins during the basting process, and it has to be sewn by hand or you'll go mad. (I tried to do it by machine and nearly pitched my cloth in the dumpster.) Let's see: The more cloth that you use will give you a lusher, better looking kilt. You will want to get about 4 yds of 60" wide cloth (you are going to be splitting the material lengthwise to get 8 yds total) I'd like to give more complete instructions, but I fear that I might get a little trippy & forget something.(lonng night) (I've got a copy of the folkwear pattern, & could try to give you a summary... both the Threads article & the pattern came out AFTER I made mine. The Threads was about a month after.) Tom (using Mickie@decisionsys.com) ------------------------------ End of H-COSTUME Digest - 29 Mar 1997 to 30 Mar 1997 ****************************************************