piranhabb@aol.com[10,0]CSuX:scottish play Subject: H-COST: Scottish Play From: PiranhaBB@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 00:40:52 EDT -Poster: PiranhaBB@aol.com I'm interested in doing a Scottish Renaissance costume.... any suggestions as to how I could make a surcote look "Scottish". Cheers, Lisa hope h. dunlap [51,1]CSuX:wrapper question Subject: Re: H-COST: Wrapper question From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 01:08:35 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" The wide bias band on the bottom of the wrapper seems to lap over 18" or 24" and then close. Seems so impractical. Am I understanding this right? It's as if someone thought it would be too suggestive to run the front opening straight from top to bottom. But perhaps I read too much into this. Comments? Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Margo Anderson -Poster: Margo Anderson A > >The bias stripes must be the side or side-back gores. Both the fronts and >the back would be straight lengths from neck to hem (or in the picture, >ruffle). It looks like the slanted side of the gores are seamed to the >straight of the fronts. I couldn't figure out at first why they would have put vertical stripes on the back and front and bias ones on the sides. Today I was looking at pictures of more fashionable gowns of the period and realized that the bustle drapery often resulted in striped or plaid fabrics ending up with a bit on the sides hanging on the bias. So, the bias panels on the sides of this dress are probably cut that way to suggest the fashionable ideal! Margo _____ majordomo@indra.com scott hulett [30,2]CSuX:spring cleaning Subject: H-COST: Spring Cleaning From: Scott Hulett Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 00:03:03 -0700 -Poster: Scott Hulett --------------3DDF2037C291B61A49DB01F8 Dear Group, Seems like some folks are doing some spring cleaning! Well, it's infectious. I've done some too. I just listed some period patterns uncut in the original envelopes on ebay. All of my listing can be seen here: eBay Seller List: mhull@earthlink.net . There are a few needlepoint books as well. Good luck to all of us. Hope you all had a great weekend. cheers, jd --------------3DDF2037C291B61A49DB01F8 Dear Group,
    Seems like some folks are doing some spring cleaning! Well, it's infectious. I've done some too. I just listed some period patterns uncut in the original envelopes on ebay. All of my listing can be seen here:   eBay Seller List: mhull@earthlink.net .
There are a few needlepoint books as well. Good luck to all of us.
Hope you all had a great weekend.
cheers, jd --------------3DDF2037C291B61A49DB01F8-- connie carroll [13,3]CSuX:anne boleyn minseries Subject: H-COST: Anne Boleyn minseries From: "Connie Carroll" Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 04:16:16 +0000 -Poster: "Connie Carroll" Just read that NBC plans to film a minseries based on on a novel by Robin Maxwell called The Secret Diary of Anne Boleyn. After hearing what they did with Moses and Cleopatra mini-series, one wonders what they will do with Anne. At least they turned down Maxwell's other novel The Queen's Bastard which was about Arthur Dudley, rumoured to be Elizabeth's illegitimate son. Kassandra NickKraken JUST CALL ME MISTRESS BUNNY starkiller@picknowl.com.au[22,4]CSuX:religious books. Subject: H-COST: Re: religious books. From: starkiller@picknowl.com.au Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 19:12:31 -Poster: starkiller@picknowl.com.au Another excellent book for finding what people in the mid to late 13th century wore as fighting monks, nuns, ordinary people, religious personages, nobility, etc is the facsimile of the Maciejowski Bible. I love my copy to bits, it took ages to find one, as it is a very hard book to come by. If you are in the UK/US or Europe, you could probably get it through ILL very easily-not so here in Australia! It is called "Old Testament Miniatures; A Medieval Picture Book with 283 Paintings from The Creation to The Story of David". The illuminations are clear, about 5"x7" in size and in colour! I cannot recommend this book enough. Yours, Lydie http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/5459/cover.htm (Cover page to all my pages) starkiller@picknowl.com.au holliday, rachel {disc~welwyn} [11,5]CSuX:introduction Subject: H-COST: Introduction From: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 15:09:37 +0200 -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Dear Although I would introduce myself. I am fairly new to historic costuming but I have been sewing and embroidering for many years. I am 21, live in Hertfordshire England and reading for a degree in Molecular Biology. Other interests include drawing (not very good at it), reading, writing, and walking. Hope to get lots of information off this list. Rachel http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/witchwood/index.html carol j. bell cannon [9,6]CSuX:was: opinions, please -- now: recommendations, please Subject: H-COST: WAS: Opinions, please -- NOW: Recommendations, please From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 08:07:00 -0700 -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" For late Medieval/Renaissance, there are a number of truly wonderful books available to the pattern-drafting impaired like me. Are there some equally good ones for early period? Thank you in advance for your comments and recommendations, and thanks to everyone who responded to my inquiry about Hoekeboer's book. Carol / Gra/inne margo anderson [36,7]CSuX:wrapper question Subject: RE: H-COST: Wrapper question From: Margo Anderson Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 08:44:15 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson At 01:08 AM 6/1/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > >The wide bias band on the bottom of the wrapper seems to lap >over 18" or 24" and then close. Seems so impractical. Am I >understanding this right? Huh? I don't see a closure on the bottom ruffle at all. I assumed the opening just went as far as the top of the ruffle. On another aspect of this question, I tried draping my pattern based on the Deliniator gown (1893, not 1993!) and discovered that the "side back gores" they were talking about don't seem to have been seperate pieces. As far as I can tell, the only seam is at side back. It has a front closure hidden by a group of pleats from the neckline, the sides are smoothly darted to give the effect of a curved side seam, there is a curved side back seam where we'd put the side back seam on a modern princess cut, and the back has another cluster of pleats with a deep box pleat center back. The pleats are tacked down for a few inches, front and back. This arrangement leaves the sides on the straight grain, useful since I'm using stripes. the gown in the picture referred to, on the other hand, has no pleats in front and probably gets all its fullness from angled side seams, and possibly pleating at CB. It still doesn't explain the bias angle of the stripes at the sides...wouldn't they go the other way if they were just the result of an angled seam? Maybe they ARE pieced in decoratively. Margo Anderson (wishing she had acsess to real garments) merouda the true of bornover [19,8]CSuX:scottish surcotes Subject: H-COST: Scottish Surcotes From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 08:46:10 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover The only thing I can think of is not to make a surcote at all. Stay strictly Scottish and leave the surcotes to those nasty Normans. If you *must* make a surcote I guess you could go plaid. But then it would have to be a comedy. Cynthia > I'm interested in doing a Scottish Renaissance costume.... any suggestions as > to how I could make a surcote look "Scottish". -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir anah [16,9]CSuX:"what to wear" Subject: H-COST: "what to wear" From: Anah Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 15:17:19 -0400 -Poster: Anah ok, pardon my ignorance here, being as I only make what is requested, I've never questioned what actually "goes underneath" I have a client that wants a wench costume. (bodice, chemise, overskirt....) but I haven't a CLUE as to what to tell her to wear underneath. do I tell her to wear the "pantaloon" things that people wear or what? thanks in advance; Anah aliaclaire@aol.com[21,10]CSuX:anne boleyn Subject: Re: H-COST: Anne Boleyn From: AliaClaire@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:38:53 EDT -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com In a message dated 6/1/99 3:41:35 AM EST, starkiller@picknowl.com.au writes: > Just read that NBC plans to film a minseries based on on a novel by > Robin Maxwell called The Secret Diary of Anne Boleyn. This should be interesting. I just finished using this book as quite a large portion of my senior project, of this particular queen in literature. It's an entertaining book, but not all that creative, I felt. More of a basic rehashing on her life...I didn't even think putting it in first person made it all that interesting. If you want a VERY good book in that vein, _The Autobiography of Henry VIII_ is better. But, this is simple enough it might just translate onto film. And as always, the costumes will be something to watch. -Alison Stacy AliaClaire@aol.com margo anderson [24,11]CSuX:"what to wear" Subject: Re: H-COST: "what to wear" From: Margo Anderson Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:54:16 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson At 03:17 PM 6/1/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: Anah > >ok, pardon my ignorance here, being as I only make what is requested, >I've never questioned what actually "goes underneath" > >I have a client that wants a wench costume. (bodice, chemise, >overskirt....) but I haven't a CLUE as to what to tell her to wear >underneath. > >do I tell her to wear the "pantaloon" things that people wear or what? The "pantaloons" are modern conveniences to prevent thigh chafing, not historically accurate garments. The chemise, more properly called a smock, IS the underwear. Bificurated undergarments were uncommon amongst European women until the 19th century. Margo anah [18,12]CSuX:"what to wear" Subject: Re: H-COST: "what to wear" From: Anah Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 15:52:58 -0400 -Poster: Anah Margo Anderson wrote: > The "pantaloons" are modern conveniences to prevent thigh chafing, not > historically accurate garments. The chemise, more properly called a smock, > IS the underwear. Bificurated undergarments were uncommon amongst European > women until the 19th century. that much I kno, but I was referring to what "we" would consider "underwear" panties, or pantaloons are probably not historically accurate....but that is what she is concerned about "modesty" wise. hmmm ok, while not historically correct, and how much of "ren faire" stuff actually adheres vehemently TO historical correctness --- pantaloons would be alright to suggest, I am assuming? margo anderson [17,13]CSuX:"what to wear" Subject: Re: H-COST: "what to wear" From: Margo Anderson Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:12:29 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson >hmmm ok, while not historically correct, and how much of "ren faire" >stuff actually adheres vehemently TO historical correctness --- >pantaloons would be alright to suggest, I am assuming? They're what most Faire participants wear, for comfort and modesty. Me, I prefer my old linen maternity shorts, which are long enough to prevent thigh chafe and short enough not to show in ordinary situations, avoiding giving the impression that Victorian styled bloomers were an authentic 16th century fashion. Margo merouda the true of bornover [30,14]CSuX:"what to wear" Subject: Re: H-COST: "what to wear" From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 13:17:44 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover I disagree that underpants are only a modern invention and that women didn't wear this type of undergarment. There are extant under "pants" pictured in Janet Arnold for one. I find it very difficult to believe that women didn't figure out that some kind of garment was needed to stop chafing. There certainly were some kind in the 16th century if not earlier. These "pants" were actually quite pretty, embroidery around the hems, made out of linen, with a drawstring waist. I don't remember if they are bifurcated (split crotched?) or not, but one would think this would be more convenient while in a gown, a corset, and a farthingale. ;-> What I wear when not trying for complete authenticity (which is variable depending on my mood and how many days I've been camping) are bike shorts one size too big. They don't bind too tight at the waist, they are slimming, and they prevent chafing (I get them almost to the knee). I have every intention of making some kind of 14th century notion of underpants, probably a copy of what the men wear soon though. Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir drgurley@aol.com[37,15]CSuX:"what to wear" Subject: Re: H-COST: "what to wear" From: DRGurley@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 16:14:50 EDT -Poster: DRGurley@aol.com In a message dated 6/1/99 3:01:40 PM Central Daylight Time, anah@tymeportal.com writes: > how much of "ren faire" > stuff actually adheres vehemently TO historical correctness A lot depends on where the faire is held and who is managing the faire. So far in four years, no one has looked under my skirts to see what I was wearing ;-). I try to stay mostly accurate and wear split pantaloons most of the time. When it's cool I wear sweater knit tights. Not only do pantaloons prevent thigh chaffing, they keep from developing a layer of dust and dirt from waist to ankle. They are great for absorbing persperation on those 100 degree days. They also make restroom visits a bit easier if they are split (two separate legs attached to a drawstring waist and not connected underneath). This is too "crotchless" for many people, but if made correctly they overlap well. Having tried to handle two skirts, long chemise, corset and bodice all tightly laced over panties I MUCH prefer my split pantaloons. For historical accuracy as well as comfort, go for drawstring at the waist and the knee (or ankle depending on the length). Elastic can be so binding and uncomfortable under all those layers! They allow me to wear a shorter chemise, which is more comfortable for me as it doesn't get caught between my legs when I'm wandering about. And when one sits or hikes one's skirts for circulation, all you will see will be a bit of lace or gather where the pantaloons peek out! This got long winded, sorry. Just my own experience talking. There are some decent patterns available for various pantaloons and they are easy to make. Good luck! DaniG seamstrix@juno.com[21,16]CSuX:scottish surcotes Subject: Re: H-COST: Scottish Surcotes From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:08:58 -0500 -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Well here we have one of those conceptual contradictions. Renaissance surcotes are a predominantly Spanish fashion, although worn by many other countries. The Scottish, during most of the 16th century, were deeply influenced by their 'Auld Alliance' with France and were mostly influenced by French fashion in a court context. Anyone who was wearing a surcote would have been focused on French/Continental fashions and would not have been concerned about having a Scottish identity. Scotland was pretty universally viewed as a cultural backwater and being identified as Scottish was not seen as a plus. Anyone who was Highland Scottish/clan based wouldn't have been wearing a Continental fashion like a surcote. I suppose a crucial question is where is this person from? If from the Clans, then they would dress in a manner derived from Celtic styles and wouldn't be wearing surcotes. If they are from the Lowlands (most of Scotland) they would be dressed in a standard Continental fashion and wouldn't have anything we would recognize as being typically Scottish. Karen merouda the true of bornover [16,17]CSuX:scottish surcotes Subject: Re: H-COST: Scottish Surcotes From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 13:55:11 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > I suppose a crucial question is where is this person from? Indeed. And also when. I forgot about Rennaisance and Elizabethan surcotes. I was thinking of 13th-14th century surcotes. *GG* -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir hope h. dunlap [50,18]CSuX:scottish surcotes Subject: H-COST: Scottish Surcotes From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 17:17:54 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Anyone who wore a surcote would have used imported materials. Nix the plaid. You could have your man go barefoot. That would be very Scots. What about a brooch. There's a good book just recently out on Scottish art, and it includes a number of large circular ornaments to wear with Celtic symbols on them. Saw it in G-Street Fabrics in Rockville MD yesterday, but didn't note the author or title. It included many friezes and tombs with sculpture of Scots on them included which may be helpful to you too. Perhaps it was called *something like* Art in Scotland,Treasures from the National Museum of Scotland. Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Merouda the True of Bornover -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover The only thing I can think of is not to make a surcote at all. Stay strictly Scottish and leave the surcotes to those nasty Normans. If you *must* make a surcote I guess you could go plaid. But then it would have to be a comedy. Cynthia > I'm interested in doing a Scottish Renaissance costume.... any suggestions as > to how I could make a surcote look "Scottish". -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _____ majordomo@indra.com [18,19]CSuX:sca siezes russia Subject: H-COST: SCA Siezes Russia From: Date: Tue, 1 Jun 99 17:24:23 -0000 -Poster: I'm sure all those who are subscribed to SCA lists have seen this already, but as a non-SCA person I found it very funny and thought others would, too. There are some pictures of people in costume, too. :) -Carol ---------------------------------------- Society For Creative Anachronism Seizes Control Of Russia MOSCOW--Official reports from the Kremlin Tuesday confirmed that the Society for Creative Anachronism, a group of medieval-wargames hobbyists, seized control of Russia in a bloodless coup over the weekend. For the full story: http://www.theonion.com/onion3520/sca_siezes_russia.html merouda the true of bornover [24,20]CSuX:scottish surcotes Subject: Re: H-COST: Scottish Surcotes From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 14:25:02 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover As I said, only if it's a comedy. *G* Cynthia > Anyone who wore a surcote would have used imported > materials. Nix the plaid. > The only thing I can think of is not to make a surcote at > all. Stay strictly > Scottish and leave the surcotes to those nasty Normans. If > you *must* make a > surcote I guess you could go plaid. But then it would have > to be a comedy. > -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir kristen m. sieber [25,21]CSuX:"what to wear" Subject: Re: H-COST: "what to wear" From: "Kristen M. Sieber" Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 14:44:18 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: "Kristen M. Sieber" > that much I kno, but I was referring to what "we" > would consider > "underwear" panties, or pantaloons are probably not > historically > accurate....but that is what she is concerned about > "modesty" wise. > > hmmm ok, while not historically correct, and how > much of "ren faire" > stuff actually adheres vehemently TO historical > correctness --- > pantaloons would be alright to suggest, I am > assuming? Maybe not what you're looking for, but I wear stretch pants under ALL my skirted garb (I can't stand my big thighs rubbing together!). Kristen Morgaine Sieber Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com julie adams [20,22]CSuX:"what to wear" Subject: Re: H-COST: "what to wear" From: Julie Adams Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 15:24:27 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Julie Adams >I disagree that underpants are only a modern invention and that women >didn't wear >this type of undergarment. I've seen late 16th c examples of German and Italian "pants". These are not split crotched and have straight legs to the knee (no drawstring or ruffles at the hem) and have embroidery along the hem. I've heard that Italian Renaissance whores wore men's breeches and are shown wearing some that look like men's "Venetians", but they looked quite different from the "underpants" that I've seen. I don't recall seeing any English examples, even in Janet Arnold, but I could be remembering wrong... Julie Adams margo anderson [8,23]CSuX:sca siezes russia Subject: Re: H-COST: SCA Siezes Russia From: Margo Anderson Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 18:12:02 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson My sister told me about this...and she thought is was true! Margo carol j. bell cannon [10,24]CSuX:sca siezes russia Subject: Re: H-COST: SCA Siezes Russia From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 18:21:55 -0700 -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 06:12 PM 6/1/99 -0800, you wrote:-Poster: Margo Anderson >My sister told me about this...and she thought is was true! -- Margo Oh, dear. I hope you were able to make her believe that the "Onion" is largely social satire and comedy. Although I thought the devices on the shields were rather nice. Carol amanda reeves [17,25]CSuX:sca siezes russia Subject: Re: H-COST: SCA Siezes Russia From: "Amanda Reeves" Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 20:28:24 -0500 -Poster: "Amanda Reeves" > >My sister told me about this...and she thought is was true! -- Margo > Oh, dear. I hope you were able to make her believe that the "Onion" > is largely social satire and comedy. Although I thought the devices on the > shields were rather nice. Carol A modern day "War of the Worlds". :-) beth [49,26]CSuX:1860 bodice Subject: H-COST: 1860 Bodice From: "Beth" Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 22:43:40 -0400 -Poster: "Beth" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B1_01BEAC80.31DB4E80 Some place I read about skirts and bodices being tied or hooked together = in mid 19th century - does anyone know of a book describing this? I have = a waist length bodice which drops down into a deep point in the front, = I'm wearing it with a separate skirt which is pleated onto a waistband. = I put ties at the side seams attaching to the skirt, this was the only = place I felt I could safely anchor the ties. When I lift my arms too = high (as in every time I tried to put on my hat :) ) the front of the = bodice pulled up. I've never claimed to be a real lady but I'm not = accustomed to flashing people either! Beth ------=_NextPart_000_00B1_01BEAC80.31DB4E80
Some place I read about skirts and bodices being = tied or=20 hooked together in mid 19th century - does anyone know of a book = describing=20 this? I have a waist length bodice which drops down into a deep point in = the=20 front, I'm wearing it with a separate skirt which is pleated onto a = waistband. I=20 put ties at the side seams attaching to the skirt, this was the only = place I=20 felt I could safely anchor the ties. When I lift my arms too high (as in = every=20 time I tried to put on my hat :) ) the front of the bodice pulled up. = I've never=20 claimed to be a real lady but I'm not accustomed to flashing people=20 either!
 
Beth
------=_NextPart_000_00B1_01BEAC80.31DB4E80-- beth [41,27]CSuX:fire safety & skirts Subject: H-COST: Fire safety & skirts From: "Beth" Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 22:50:13 -0400 -Poster: "Beth" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01BEAC81.1C438BE0 I recently heard a museum guide explain that women kept the bottom 6 = inches or so of their skirts wet - to prevent them from catching on = fire. The time frame is rather vague - the house spanned most of the = 17th and 18th centuries. Has anyone seen documentation for this. It = seems not only very time consuming but impractical. Cold drafty floors = and wet skirts flapping around your ankles? Beth ------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01BEAC81.1C438BE0
I recently heard a museum guide explain that women = kept the=20 bottom 6 inches or so of their skirts wet - to prevent them from = catching on=20 fire. The time frame is rather vague - the house spanned most of the = 17th and=20 18th centuries. Has anyone seen documentation for this. It seems not = only very=20 time consuming but impractical. Cold drafty floors and wet skirts = flapping=20 around your ankles?
 
Beth
------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01BEAC81.1C438BE0-- margo anderson [23,28]CSuX:sca siezes russia Subject: Re: H-COST: SCA Siezes Russia From: Margo Anderson Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 19:55:19 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson At 08:28 PM 6/1/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Amanda Reeves" > > > > >> >My sister told me about this...and she thought is was true! -- Margo > >> Oh, dear. I hope you were able to make her believe that the >"Onion" >> is largely social satire and comedy. Amazing, isn't it...especially since she's heavily involved in living history and reenactment of a different period (Art Deco). I think she was very, very tired. Margo david stamper & eve harris [19,29]CSuX:fire safety & skirts Subject: Re: H-COST: Fire safety & skirts From: "David Stamper & Eve Harris" Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 22:54:52 -0400 -Poster: "David Stamper & Eve Harris" >I recently heard a museum guide explain that women kept the bottom 6 inches or so of their skirts wet - to >prevent them from catching on fire. The time frame is rather vague - the house spanned most of the 17th and >18th centuries. Has anyone seen documentation for this. It seems not only very time consuming but >impractical. Cold drafty floors and wet skirts flapping around your ankles? This doesn't make much sense to me...what I've heard from women cooking over fires is that a good wool skirt will take a lot of heat before it actually singes. Wet skirts doesn't sound very nice. Any takers? Eve Harris the purple elephant [21,30]CSuX:fire safety & skirts Subject: Re: H-COST: Fire safety & skirts From: The Purple Elephant Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:37:59 +0930 (CST) -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Tue, 1 Jun 1999, Beth wrote: > I recently heard a museum guide explain that women kept the bottom 6 = > inches or so of their skirts wet - to prevent them from catching on = > fire. The time frame is rather vague - the house spanned most of the = > 17th and 18th centuries. Has anyone seen documentation for this. It = > seems not only very time consuming but impractical. Cold drafty floors = > and wet skirts flapping around your ankles? Ick! Obviously not some who's tried getting about with a wet hem (or going to the loo with one :-P).... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ susan carroll-clark [17,31]CSuX:sca siezes russia Subject: Re: H-COST: SCA Siezes Russia From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 22:50:51 -0400 -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! > Oh, dear. I hope you were able to make her believe that the "Onion" >is largely social satire and comedy. Although I thought the devices on the >shields were rather nice. Carol That's 'cause they're real SCAdians. Namely, some of the local (to the Onion) Madison, WI folks. Susan the purple elephant [25,32]CSuX:1860 bodice Subject: Re: H-COST: 1860 Bodice From: The Purple Elephant Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:40:22 +0930 (CST) -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Tue, 1 Jun 1999, Beth wrote: > Some place I read about skirts and bodices being tied or hooked together = > in mid 19th century - does anyone know of a book describing this? I have = > a waist length bodice which drops down into a deep point in the front, = > I'm wearing it with a separate skirt which is pleated onto a waistband. = > I put ties at the side seams attaching to the skirt, this was the only = > place I felt I could safely anchor the ties. When I lift my arms too = > high (as in every time I tried to put on my hat :) ) the front of the = > bodice pulled up. I've never claimed to be a real lady but I'm not = > accustomed to flashing people either! You could try putting a couple of hooks and eyes on either side of the bodice point (and maybe round the back too). That might hold the skirt and bodice more firmly together... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ annette m allen [26,33]CSuX:scottish play Subject: Re: H-COST: Scottish Play From: Annette M Allen Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 20:09:11 +0000 -Poster: Annette M Allen I am probably going to be one of many replys on this one: DON'T! There is no evidence with which I am familiar that suggests "Scottish" people wore surcoats... -Annette On Tue, 1 Jun 1999 00:40:52 EDT PiranhaBB@aol.com writes: > > -Poster: PiranhaBB@aol.com > > I'm interested in doing a Scottish Renaissance costume.... any > suggestions as > to how I could make a surcote look "Scottish". > > Cheers, > > Lisa You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] lois [20,34]CSuX:magazines on the civil war Subject: H-COST: magazines on the Civil war From: Lois Date: Tue, 01 Jun 1999 23:24:34 +0000 -Poster: Lois If anyone is interested in the Civil war period I just listed copies of the Civil War Lady. Clothing history, social history, living history: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=112251094 Also a facsimile reproduction copy of Workwoman's Guide by A Lady (1838) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=112274642 Lois Lois Mueller Wooden Porch Books books@woodenporch.com albertcat@aol.com[17,35]CSuX:1860 bodice Subject: Re: H-COST: 1860 Bodice From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:22:56 EDT -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 6/1/99 11:03:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, csmart@physics.adelaide.edu.au writes: << > accustomed to flashing people either! You could try putting a couple of hooks and eyes on either side of the bodice point (and maybe round the back too). That might hold the skirt and bodice more firmly together... - >> I usually put them side front, side & side back. Of course you only need to do this if the skirt open in back & the bodice opens in front [or something similar or vice versa]. If both open CB...then just tack them together all the way round. Remember, they were always basting on collars & cuffs & all kinds of things in the 19th century. mffski [24,36]CSuX:spring cleaning Subject: Re: H-COST: Spring Cleaning From: "mffski" Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 23:54:39 -0400 -Poster: "mffski" Dear Scott, You wrote: Seems like some folks are doing some spring cleaning! Well, it's infectious. I've done some too. I just listed some period patterns uncut in the original envelopes on ebay. All of my listing can be seen here: eBay Seller List: mhull@earthlink.net . This is an email address, not a URL. Will you send me the URL, please? There are a few needlepoint books as well. Good luck to all of us. Hope you all had a great weekend. cheers, jd I'm very interested. Maryanne mffski@ptd.net kat@grendal.rain.com[25,37]CSuX:"what to wear" Subject: Re: H-COST: "what to wear" From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:01:54 +0000 -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > Maybe not what you're looking for, but I wear stretch > pants under ALL my skirted garb (I can't stand my big > thighs rubbing together!). I've heard this as "proof" that medieval and Renaissance women *had* to have worn underwear. However, I think we get used to what we grow up with. There have been women who have gone without underpants of any recognizable kind even into the present Century (1900s). In some cultures, even very large women do not wear anything to keep their thighs from rubbing together (such as the large women of the South Sea Islands.) Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! kat@grendal.rain.com[36,38]CSuX:"what to wear" Subject: Re: H-COST: "what to wear" From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:10:00 +0000 -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > I disagree that underpants are only a modern invention and that women didn't wear > this type of undergarment. There are extant under "pants" pictured in Janet > Arnold for one. I find it very difficult to believe that women didn't figure out > that some kind of garment was needed to stop chafing. There certainly were some > kind in the 16th century if not earlier. These "pants" were actually quite > pretty, embroidery around the hems, made out of linen, with a drawstring waist. What we have extant are Italian late 16th Century. It is not clear whether they are for men or women. We know from reports that some women wore underwear in Italy, but from written sources it was felt to be weird by English standards. From the research I've done, the style seems to have started in late 15th early 16th Century Spain, by women who had noted the habit amongst Moresco women (see Anderson's book on Spanish clothing.) The Spanish women brought them to Italy when they migrated (all those Medici bankers and their ilk). Even in Italy it was considered shocking, which is one of the reasons why the d'Este women were considered "fast." We must keep in mind that not everyone has a chafing problem. Not only that, but it isn't only the thin who do not have a problem (and only the fat who do.) We get used to what we grow up with or find indispensible once we have gotten out of the habit of going without. Just because *we* can't imagine someone doing something a different way, doesn't mean they might think they had a need for it. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! hicks, melissa [33,39]CSuX:found louise portrait - still need help! Subject: H-COST: Found Louise Portrait - still need help! From: "HICKS, MELISSA" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:40:13 +1000 -Poster: "HICKS, MELISSA" Greetings all, I number of days ago I sent out a request asking for help in tracking down a particular portrait of Louise of Lorraine (otherwise known as Louise de Vaudemont - Queen of France). The details of the portrait were: > The portrait I am > looking for would be from around 1575, and slightly odd in that it has > the turned-back sleeves of French 1530s frocks. There is a drawing of > it in Herbert Norris' Tudor Fashion. > Well, I've actually tracked down a drawing from Racinet at: http://www.costumes.org/history/greatwomen/10340_26.jpg I believe this is the portrait that Norris is referring to, but I am really iffy about Racinet's redrawings. Would anyone know where Racinet took his source material? In other words is there a clue here as to where to look for the original portrait? Oh and Racinet's details are: Racinet, Albert (1988) The Historical Encyclopedia of Costume, ISBN: 1-85170-173-7. p179 Thanks and regards Meliora Lochac. ella lynoure rajamaki [20,40]CSuX:"what to wear" Subject: Re: H-COST: "what to wear" From: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:55:56 +2 -Poster: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" On 1 Jun 99, at 13:17, Merouda the True of Bornover wrote: > I find it very difficult to believe that women didn't figure out > that some kind of garment was needed to stop chafing. Chafing of thighs? Perhaps the chafing some experience is because of the modern way of walking (feel very close together)? Or perhaps they found another ways, for example using some kind of cream or oil on thighs to keep them for chafing each other. -- -------(c) 1999--------------* lynoure@tuug.org * Ella Lynoure Rajamaki--------* http://www.tuug.org/~lynoure * margaret bolger [34,41]CSuX:antique costume & textiles fairs Subject: H-COST: Antique Costume & Textiles Fairs From: Margaret Bolger Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 04:16:49 -0400 -Poster: Margaret Bolger Apologies if you have received this information previously via other lists! Once again my Antique Costume & Textiles Fairs are fast approaching, as follows : (a) 13th June - Assembly Rooms, BATH..........home of the Costume Museum! (b) 25th July - Esher Hall, SANDOWN PARK, Surrey (c) 19th September - Armitage Centre, MANCHESTER The next event - at Bath - has over 60 dealers selling a wonderful range of antique/vintage costume and textiles. We have attracted dealers from France, Belgium and Italy! As usual we will have Bonhams (Auctioneers) providing FREE valuations, Pat Earnshaw will give FREE lace valuations and a textile conservation studio will also offer FREE advice. At BATH - you could combine a visit to the Fair with a visit to the world famous Museum of Costume - a combined ticket will be available on the day! At SANDOWN PARK - make it a weekend feast of antique textiles, with a full day course on 24th July to learn all about the Care & Preservation of Antique Textiles. (The fee for this course includes entry to the Fair!) More information about the Fairs can be found on my web site - http://www.artizania.co.uk *** On the web site, I am now listing other UK dealers and events of interest around the world. I have just added a nice range of engageants, pelerines, collars and a lovely Dresden work neckerchief. Margaret antique costume & textiles http://www.artizania.co.uk melanie wilson [38,42]CSuX:underwear was what to wear Subject: Re: H-COST: Underwear was what to wear From: "Brandy Dickson" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 04:21:03 -0700 -Poster: "Brandy Dickson" : : > I find it very difficult to believe that women didn't figure out : that some kind of garment was needed to stop chafing. : : Maybe because they didn't experiance it ? why is it more likely to occur : with medieval gear for instance than a modern skirt & briefs without : tights Well, I have a theory... if you live your whole life having your body shaped by a corset, the body adjusts... I think it is the same with the thighs... if you lived your whole life not using anything to stop the chafting, well, the body adjusts by toughening up the skin there.... I also wear skirts mundanely and in the SCA. When I am wearing skirts on a nippy, dewy, muggy, rainy or damp day, I find that I have red puffy chafted skin, and it becomes hard to walk without looking like you need to go home... when I am wearing skirts in the SCA, I find myself walking with a different stride, and the swing to my hips changes.... it truely makes a difference to how much chafting I get, and how long it hurts for... to combat that, I use cheap baby powder, or if desperate, oils, but they absorb into the skin after a bit, and can make the potential problem worse... sometimes I wear biking shorts, because I haven't the time to "powder up" ... Hope this helps... Brandy Dickson query@mindless.com (I think pantyhose to you ?) or indeed with stockings ? I'm sorry : this point always baffles me, as I don't understand the problem kate m bunting [14,43]CSuX:fire safety/"what to wear" Subject: H-COST: Fire safety/"what to wear" From: "KATE M BUNTING" Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 12:34:54 +0100 -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" Claire wrote; Obviously not some who's tried getting about with a wet hem (or going to the loo with one) I second that, having just returned from a long Bank Holiday weekend on a campsite turned into a sea of mud by a 2 hour thunderstorm! I suppose it wouldn't be so bad if you were wearing hoops (which would be a greater fire risk anyway). As for drawers, I could never quite believe that pre-19th cent. women didn't wear them until I once saw a cartoon by Gillray (I think) entitled "Exhibition Stare Case", which shows some large ladies falling downstairs and plainly NOT wearing drawers. Kate Bunting King's Lifeguard of Foote, Sealed Knot dave;editors(heritage matters) [30,44]CSuX:update from heritage matters Subject: H-COST: Update from heritage matters From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:09:49 +0100 -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Dear all, The latest issue of Heritage Matters has hit the post and we are now seeking input for the next issue. In the meantime we will be adding the new pages to our website that we promised. Here is our quarterly list of other websites of interest that we have found http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/witchwood/index.html http://www.londonstowncrier.com/ http://www.southwark.org.uk/sha/index.html http://www.lincsheritage.org/ http://www.gardenvisit.com/ http://www.maryrose.org/ http://www.ss-great-britain.com/ http://www.scotlandspast.com/ http://www.york-mystery-plays.org/index1.htm http://www.medway-net.com/ http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/hypertext/landow/victorian/victov.html http://www.globalvisions.org/cl/wwv/celtic.html http://www.teleport.com/~tguptill/costuming.htm costume and dont forget; www.soft.net.uk/wysewords ; Dave LD MUNDY Editor Heritage Matters i. marc carlson [15,45]CSuX:scottish play Subject: Re: H-COST: Scottish Play From: "I. Marc Carlson" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 8:23:38 -0500 -Poster: "I. Marc Carlson" > I'm interested in doing a Scottish Renaissance costume.... any > suggestions as to how I could make a surcote look "Scottish". Steal it. Seriously though, this may seem like a stupid question, and may be due to my 1300s focus, but are "surcotes" even "Renaissance"? Marc lib_imc@centum.utulsa.edu cynthia j ley [13,46]CSuX:underwear was what to wear Subject: Re: H-COST: Underwear was what to wear From: cynthia j ley Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 10:12:11 EDT -Poster: cynthia j ley Arlys You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] mary denise smith [22,47]CSuX:fire safety & skirts misinformation Subject: Re: H-COST: Fire safety & skirts Misinformation From: Mary Denise Smith Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 08:20:58 -0600 -Poster: Mary Denise Smith Just where did you hear this tidbit of misinformation? Since your address is Suffolk NY, did you hear it at Old Bethpage? Ill informed docents/"tour guides" are a millstone around the neck of any museum. They create alternate realities based on fantasies and fabrications and pass these along as "fact". They are the ones who will never wear their clothing correctly (even when it is modern clothing), who do inappropriate "crafts" on site and who complain the loudest to the Director when they are corrected. If the museum going public demanded the same correct information from historic sites as they do in food labelling (as an example), this would be less of a problem. It would still be a problem, though, as long as cheap-ass budgeting committees insist upon free or minimum wage staff and refuse to pay for their training. Mary Denise Smith merouda the true of bornover [25,48]CSuX:scottish play Subject: Re: H-COST: Scottish Play From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 08:31:07 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > > suggestions as to how I could make a surcote look "Scottish". > > Steal it. > Seriously though, this may seem like a stupid question, and may be due > to my 1300s focus, but are "surcotes" even "Renaissance"? *LOL* heh. I thought that by this time the name was robe for those coat like garments. And that surcotes were definitely 13-14th century. And maybe early 15th. Truth be told though I find the names of garments quite confusing when discussing a broad time line. Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir scott hulett [36,49]CSuX:spring cleaning Subject: Re: H-COST: Spring Cleaning From: Scott Hulett Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 08:51:13 -0700 -Poster: Scott Hulett Dear M, My ebay seller id is my email address. I couldn't figure out how to make a link, sorry, you could use it to do a seller search. I'm still learning how to manipulate the system. Thanks for your patience. Let me know if you have any problems or questions, cheers, jd mhull@earthlink.net mffski wrote: > -Poster: "mffski" > > Dear Scott, > > You wrote: > > Seems like some folks are doing some spring cleaning! Well, it's > infectious. I've done some too. I just listed some period patterns > uncut > in the original envelopes on ebay. All of my listing can be seen here: > eBay Seller List: mhull@earthlink.net . > > This is an email address, not a URL. Will you send me the URL, please? > > There are a few needlepoint books as well. Good luck to all of us. > Hope you all had a great weekend. > cheers, jd > > I'm very interested. > > Maryanne > mffski@ptd.net margo anderson [15,50]CSuX:"interesting" costume standards Subject: H-COST: "Interesting" costume standards From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:40:56 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson I just picked up a brochure for the Highway 50 Wagon Train, which purports to be representing an 1850's emigrant train to California. It states "All Dress and wagons or buggies must be Authentic Era - Please check with officials. No tanktops, T-shirts, Halter tops, or shorts." I just needed to share my pain... Margo agottfre@telusplanet.net (angela gottfred)[30,51]CSuX:fire safety & skirts Subject: Re: H-COST: Fire safety & skirts From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:14:06 -0600 -Poster: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) "Beth" wrote: >>I recently heard a museum guide explain that women kept the bottom 6 inches or so of their skirts wet - to prevent them from catching on fire..... It seems not only very time consuming but impractical. Cold drafty floors and wet skirts flapping around your ankles?<< There is a brief reference to this practice in _The King's Bread, 2d Rising : Cooking at Niagara 1726-1815_, by Dennis & Carol Farmer. They don't cite a source for it, however. I wet my hems when I cook over an outdoor campfire, as a safety practice. My skirts are cotton, not wool, and after I wring them out, they stay nicely damp for about an hour. On hot days, I don't bother to wring them out much. When they dry, it's a quick trip to the water bucket to repeat the procedure. It doesn't seem at all time-consuming to me. I do this because I've had my skirts blow toward the wind unexpectedly more than once, and this practice gives me peace of mind. My ankles aren't unduly wet--I wear wool stockings or leggings, which keeps them dryish. Besides, I'm also wearing moccasins, so I'm used to wet feet anyhow. (I portray the mixed-blood (half-breed) wife of a Canadian fur trader, c. 1805). Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net rio@austin.rr.com (strangegirl)[39,52]CSuX:underwear was what to wear Subject: Re: H-COST: Underwear was what to wear From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 16:53:42 GMT -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Just a personal experience to add here, from doing various types of living history/interpretation/acting in period persona for the bulk of my life. All refer to 'in costume', whatever period is under In cold weather, I *never* chafe, pantaloons or no. In warm weather, I sometimes chafe, pantaloons or no. There is always a nice breeze up the skirts on any outfit when I move, which helps. In very hot weather (95-100+ degrees f in the shade) I *always* chafe, pantaloons or no. This applies to modern dress, in *denim jeans* as well. All of the above have little to do with my weight, the size of my thighs, the amount of fabric around the area in question, etc. It has a lot to do with the sensitivity of my skin, my tendency towards getting prickly heat ( I get it on my arms in very hot weather when I've been sweating a lot), how much water I've drunk that day (!), how much salty food I've eaten that day, whether I've been good about taking my vitamins (affects skin resiliency and condition as well as sweat Ph), what sort of bathing facilities have been available at the event, etc. I think that I would be more comfortable if I was more careful about my personal health at events (which I always seem to let fall by the wayside when I'm washing dishes and cooking and chasing men around with a water jug), *and* if I could go to events exclusively in cold or balmy weather (not likely, as I live in Texas). Just another P.O.V. Margery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~There is no spoon~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ {*to reply take "spambegone" from my reply-to address*} george & jennifer maloof [19,53]CSuX:spanish costume Subject: H-COST: Spanish Costume From: George & Jennifer Maloof Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:10:20 -0600 (MDT) -Poster: George & Jennifer Maloof Greetings, I am trying to find resources pertaining to Spanish costume circa 1540's. I was referred to this group by someone who told me that there would be people who could be able to help me. As I am not on your list, I would appreciate any replies to be e-mailed to gemini4@asu.uswest.net. Any help at all would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. George Maloof Mesa Southwest Museum hope h. dunlap [14,54]CSuX:scottish tartans Subject: H-COST: Scottish Tartans From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:42:30 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" I don't know of a source in Toronto, but an old Threads article (March 1991) on making a kilt lists Ann Stewart, Rte. 1, Box 43, Leeds, NY 12451 at telephone (518) 622-8383 for any tartan from Scottish mills, 11-19 oz., wool or silk, jackets and traditional accessories; yardage, straps and buckles, or kilts to order. Hope H. Dunlap carol j. bell cannon [18,55]CSuX:underwear was what to wear Subject: Re: H-COST: Underwear was what to wear From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 10:55:16 -0700 -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 08:49 AM 6/2/99,Merouda the True of Bornover e.g. Cynthia Long wrote: >I don't think it's more likely to be true with medieval gear than modern. I >can't wear *any* clothing from *any* century without some protection from >chafing and modern briefs are, well, too brief. ... ... For me the pain >is unbearable on hot days. IMHO, a line can be drawn for authenticity vs. >modern for health/physical pain concerns. It's not period to wear >sunglasses either, but I'll wear them till I die to fend off migraines. I agree, which is why I'll never belong to a guild that does the No. CA RenFaire. I, too, feel it's not the clothes so much as the climate that governs how likely chafing may be. I wear what were known in the 1960s-'70s as 'pettipants', and gratefully so. cjc hope h. dunlap [42,56]CSuX:"interesting" costume standards Subject: H-COST: "Interesting" costume standards From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:33:15 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" This is too funny! Did you ever see the movie with John Wayne in which he leads a wagon train of women west to become wives? After crossing the country by wagon train, their attire is, 'er, pretty ragged and rangey. But not quite to the halter top and shorts level. Before meeting their future husbands, they stop for a few days to wash and sew some decent dresses. I think it was *Westward the Women.* Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Margo Anderson -Poster: Margo Anderson I just picked up a brochure for the Highway 50 Wagon Train, which purports to be representing an 1850's emigrant train to California. It states "All Dress and wagons or buggies must be Authentic Era - Please check with officials. No tanktops, T-shirts, Halter tops, or shorts." I just needed to share my pain... Margo _____ majordomo@indra.com jean waddie [41,57]CSuX:scottish surcotes Subject: Re: H-COST: Scottish Surcotes From: Jean Waddie Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 17:51:33 +0100 -Poster: Jean Waddie Eh-eh-eh-eh-hem! Scotland had Normans too - like Robert de Brus, for example. It depends whether the lady is a noble of the court of the King of Scotland, from the south, central belt or east coast, or if she is from the Gaelic areas. The Scottish court never wore tartan. Also, what period is "Scottish Renaissance"? Renaissance ideas spread slowly, and didn't really hit England until the early 16th century. Scotland's great "Renaissance Man" was James IV - 1488 to 1513. Surcotes are rather earlier than that. Jean In message <37540041.5B3EC6D@serv.net>, Merouda the True of Bornover writes > >-Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > >The only thing I can think of is not to make a surcote at all. Stay strictly >Scottish and leave the surcotes to those nasty Normans. If you *must* make a >surcote I guess you could go plaid. But then it would have to be a comedy. >Cynthia > >> I'm interested in doing a Scottish Renaissance costume.... any suggestions as >> to how I could make a surcote look "Scottish". > >-- >Cynthia Long >Merouda the True of Bornover >Barony of Madrone >Kingdom of An Tir > > -- Jean Waddie merouda the true of bornover [21,58]CSuX:scottish surcotes Subject: Re: H-COST: Scottish Surcotes From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 11:07:13 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > Eh-eh-eh-eh-hem! Scotland had Normans too - like Robert de Brus, for > example. It depends whether the lady is a noble of the court of the > King of Scotland, from the south, central belt or east coast, or if she > is from the Gaelic areas. The Scottish court never wore tartan. I was under the impression that this wasn't meant to be authentic but something that would scream Scottish, not Norman. Not clothing, but costuming. If you see what I mean. FWIW -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir carol j. bell cannon [18,59]CSuX:scottish surcotes Subject: Re: H-COST: Scottish Surcotes From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 11:37:39 -0700 -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 11:07 AM 6/2/99, Merouda the True of Bornover aka: Cynthia Long wrote: >I was under the impression that this wasn't meant to be authentic but something that >would scream Scottish, not Norman. Not clothing, but costuming. If you see what I >mean. As the lady in question mentioned RenFaire, I had the opposite impression--that she wished to know what a Scotswoman of the Renaissance times would have worn--and what she would have worn to indicate she was Scots--although the lady posting did use the term surcoat. I took that term 'loosely'...thinking of those Italian/Spanish overcoats/dresses...which I don't know anything about making. Carol / Gra/inne [in the SCA] susan carroll-clark [14,60]CSuX:scottish tartans Subject: Re: H-COST: Scottish Tartans From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:49:44 -0400 -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! There is a traditional tartan shop on Yonge St., but since I've now moved from Toronto, I can't just look it up in the phone book (Eve, can you help)? It's just south of Bloor, on the west side, if you want to go looking for it. I believe there is another one, also on Yonge St. (east side) north of Hwy 401. Susan piranhabb@aol.com[28,61]CSuX:scottish "surcote" clarification Subject: H-COST: Scottish "Surcote" Clarification From: PiranhaBB@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:55:19 EDT -Poster: PiranhaBB@aol.com Sorry to have caused a stir with this earlier request. I should have taken more time to really describe what I wanted to do. I've sent this email to several people who responded to me personally as well as to the list: The guidelines (costume competition) I have are to make a costume for a Shakespearean character (in my case, Lady Macbeth) as it would have been presented _on the English Elizabethan stage_. We're talking an "Elizabethan impression" of a medieval (or whatever age it is, Macbeth began his reign in 1040) Scottish queen, rather than a 100% accurate Scottish queen. I would imagine that they would have taken a familiar garment (ie: a Spanish/English/ surcote) and put a regional and temporal twist on it (as annoys us purists with so many costume flicks). What I'm planning on doing is the mad sleepwalking scene, wearing a chemise and coif, carrying a candle and I thought a surcote over it would look like a robe kind of thingy. I was thinking of using buttons embellished with a thistle, edge the coif in thistle blackwork (_yes_, I know blackwork wouldn't be period to Macbeth's time), etc. Would another "regional" accessory be an arisaide (unsure of spelling) with a penannular broach? I do English Ren, and am unfamiliar with Scottish and medieval stuff... Cheers, Lisa anah [16,62]CSuX:jean harlow style gown Subject: H-COST: Jean Harlow style gown From: Anah Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 14:58:23 -0400 -Poster: Anah I am writing because I am currently working on a gown that can be seen @ http://home.att.net/~design-house/files/page1a.htm I know there are books out there on bias sewing, and such, I need to know the BEST one to get and I need it like yesterday. I've not done a whole lot in bias "dressing" and I want to make sure that I approach this in the right manner, because the dress is being constructed of Silk Charmeuse. At the per yard cost, I DO NOT want to make any mistakes, or at the very least, keep them to a minimum. thanks in advance. pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[19,63]CSuX:16 c drawers Subject: H-COST: 16 c drawers From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:12:31 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> There is at least one pair of late 16th century linen drawers in England: the two pieces of original clothing on the Queen Elizabeth I effigy at Westminster are a pair of drawers and a corset, both worn in life by the queen. The drawers are perfectly plain linen, unlike the embellished ones (which I believe are Italian) Janet included in Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlocked (published before the effigy clothing was discovered and examined.) It is generally assumed that the queen wore drawers for horseback riding. Deborah aleed [21,64]CSuX:info on q elizabeth s effigy Subject: H-COST: Info on Q Elizabeth's Effigy From: aleed Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:18:03 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: aleed > > There is at least one pair of late 16th century linen drawers in England: > the two pieces of original clothing on the Queen Elizabeth I effigy at > Westminster are a pair of drawers and a corset, both worn in life by the > queen. The drawers are perfectly plain linen, unlike the embellished ones > (which I believe are Italian) Janet included in Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe > Unlocked (published before the effigy clothing was discovered and > examined.) Speaking of the effigy, does anyone know of any articles/publications covering it? Thanks, Drea drgurley@aol.com[35,65]CSuX:help! fabric bled... Subject: H-COST: HELP! Fabric bled... From: DRGurley@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:20:08 EDT -Poster: DRGurley@aol.com HELP!! My husband, love that he is, threw one of his doublets in the washing machine. I have done this before and had no problem, but for some reason it bled through from one side to the other. One side is purple and white with a small amount of gold (almost cloud-like design) and the other is black. Both are heavy upholstery materials. He washed it on cold with my baby detergent (as I have before) but the black bled through onto the white. As I was not home at the time, he decided to try re-washing it and threw it into the machine for another go round. So, it has been washed twice on cold and never seen the dryer. Does anyone have any suggestions for removing this? There are only two places where it's "black". It mostly appears smudged or dingy. I use Ivory soap successfully on a lot of other stains, but wanted some other opinions before I attempt that one. ANY ideas are worth greatly appreciated. If I have to reproduce this doublet I can, but I would really rather not. One other question: I've heard that there is a product that will remove dye from the wash water while clothes are being washed. My mother saw an ad for it--a sheet that you put in with your wash that absorbs dyes from the water. Apparently they washed bright red and blue with whites and the whites came out bright white. Anyone know of this? Thanks in advance. Dani G lilinah@grin.net[34,66]CSuX:spring cleaning Subject: Re: H-COST: Spring Cleaning From: lilinah@grin.net Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:25:46 -0700 -Poster: lilinah@grin.net Scott Hulett wrote: >Dear Group, > Seems like some folks are doing some spring cleaning! Well, it's >infectious. I've done some too. I just listed some period patterns uncut >in the >original envelopes on ebay. All of my listing can be seen here: > >d=mhull%40earthlink.net&include=0&since=-1&sort=2&rows=25> >eBay Seller List: mhull@earthlink.net . >There are a few needlepoint books as well. Good luck to all of us. >Hope you all had a great weekend. >cheers, jd Maryanne wrote: >This is an email address, not a URL. Will you send me the URL, please? > >I'm very interested. By copying and pasting his message (which was, i guess, in HTML), the actual URL shows up for me - as displayed above, and here below... http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&userid =mhull%40earthlink.net&include=0&since=-1&sort=2&rows=25 As this is very long, you may have to copy-cut-paste-and-adjust to get it into your browser. Lilinah ron carnegie [38,67]CSuX:fire safety & skirts Subject: Re: H-COST: Fire safety & skirts From: Ron Carnegie Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 17:20:06 -0400 -Poster: Ron Carnegie At 10:50 PM 6/1/99 -0400, you wrote: >I recently heard a museum guide explain that women kept the bottom 6 inches or so of their skirts wet - to prevent them from catching on fire. The time frame is rather vague - the house spanned most of the 17th and 18th centuries. Has anyone seen documentation for this. It seems not only very time consuming but impractical. Cold drafty floors and wet skirts flapping around your ankles? > >Beth > There seems to be a strange believe that down hearth cooking was far more dangerous than it is. I used to do it for a living, my wife still does. Sure there is some danger, but not nearly as much as I constantly hear referred to. In fact I have often heard it said that kithchen fires were the biggest killers of women. Well I will not speak for everyones period and locale, but here in Tidewater Virgina in the third quarter of the 18th century childbirth is the largest killer of woman. I have not seen statistics even given for fire deaths, though I can not think of a single one in my collection of biographies on Williamsburg residents. Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* ron carnegie [49,68]CSuX:fire safety & skirts misinformation Subject: Re: H-COST: Fire safety & skirts Misinformation From: Ron Carnegie Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 17:25:48 -0400 -Poster: Ron Carnegie At 08:20 AM 6/2/99 -0600, you wrote: > >-Poster: Mary Denise Smith > >Just where did you hear this tidbit of misinformation? Since your address is Suffolk NY, did you >hear it at Old Bethpage? > >Ill informed docents/"tour guides" are a millstone around the neck of any museum. They create >alternate realities based on fantasies and fabrications and pass these along as "fact". They are the >ones who will never wear their clothing correctly (even when it is modern clothing), who do >inappropriate "crafts" on site and who complain the loudest to the Director when they are corrected. > >If the museum going public demanded the same correct information from historic sites as they do in >food labelling (as an example), this would be less of a problem. It would still be a problem, >though, as long as cheap-ass budgeting committees insist upon free or minimum wage staff and refuse >to pay for their training. > > >Mary Denise Smith > There are even some who KNOW their information is wrong. The owner of a nearby plantation house here in Virginia said, "The public expects these stories!" Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* lynn meyer [23,69]CSuX:cleaning fur Subject: H-COST: Re: Cleaning fur From: Lynn Meyer Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 14:35:14 -0700 -Poster: Lynn Meyer This is a bit late, but I'm catching up after a very busy time. What kind of store do you go to to obtain Energine? A few years ago I looked for "home dry-cleaning fluid" and couldn't figure out where to get any.... Thanks, Halima/Lynn > From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger > Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:02:48 -0500 > Subject: H-COST: Re: Cleaning fur > You should be able to get them pretty clean yourself, but it may take time > and several steps. If there are greasy-feeling places (back of neck, > wrists, etc.), the cleaning solvent on a sponge should work. Don't wet the > skin if you can help it. You should be able to get "Energine" which is > 1,1,1 trichloroethane. It should work the same as carbon tet. merouda the true of bornover [35,70]CSuX:underwear was what to wear Subject: Re: H-COST: Underwear was what to wear From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 14:37:18 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > It seems likely that they didn't as rarely are undergarments cited, and > when they are are often seen as a bit risque I've seen lots of underwear pictures but not in the nobility. Lots of chemises (still with no indication of whether there was something under them) and men in "briefs". The pictures seem to be of people at work, either in the fields, the bathhouse, or sometimes at rest. The most graphic picture I remember is of three peasants warming themselves in front of fire with their tunics and skirts raised. Neither the men or women are wearing under "pants" their genitals there for all to see. Knowing that men wore briefs or not depending on the activity it seems a logical step to the idea that women *might* have too. For me, the jury's still out. :) > I never said you shouldn't, hopefully people don't tend to go looking up > your skirts too often so I don't think it matters too much :0 Heh. Not often enough. *sigh* *VBG* Seems to me I heard a story on this list of a "tourist" doing just that. Lifting a ladies skirts to see if she was wearing the right stuff underneath!! As though she were a mannikin, didn't even ask. *shiver* God help the fool that tries it with me. Who knows what they'll get. Boxers, bike shorts, bloomers.... or maybe a sock in the jaw. :) Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir annbwass@aol.com[13,71]CSuX:help! fabric bled... Subject: Re: H-COST: HELP! Fabric bled... From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:37:55 EDT -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com In a message dated 6/2/1999 4:23:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DRGurley@aol.com writes: > > I sometimes have luck using hairspray to get out stubborn marks, including ballpoint ink. (I think it is the alcohol in the spray that does it, but it is not the same as regular rubbing alcohol.) Ann Wass nancy santella [16,72]CSuX:a question of detail Subject: H-COST: A Question of Detail From: "Nancy Santella" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 18:54:32 -0400 -Poster: "Nancy Santella" Hi everyone, I am new to the list and was wondering if anyone could explain how the detailing on the green dress sleeves of Jan van Eyck's "The Marriage of Giovanni Arnolfini" could be done. They look like those rag rugs I see in the craft shops. Anna OftderTurm Shire of Sunder Oak Kingdom of AEthelmearc Life is a Party. Each day is a gift, to be opened with Anticipation, Joy and Thankfulness. kathryn l. herb [26,73]CSuX:fire safety & skirts Subject: Re: H-COST: Fire safety & skirts From: "Kathryn L. Herb" Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 18:55:33 EDT -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" I can't remember where right now (sorry -- really old and vague memory), but I have heard of wetting hems. Once or twice. My personal opinion is that it may make it a bit safer to wet a hem from a flammability standpoint, but the wet hems I've been "privileged" to experience have dragged my linen petticoats down. (Maybe cotton's different -- I only know linen and wool.) Even though I don't wear them ground length, when the bottoms are wet they can get long enough to get under my shoes/feet as I back up from the fire or attempt to stand up from a crouch near it. My thought is that it would create more of a hazard, and probably pick up more dirt, inside or outside. But I've never found the wetness to be uncomfortable against my legs, whether hosed and shod or bare. My rather dopic self's two cents' worth. Kay kayherb@juno.com You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[21,74]CSuX:westminster effigies Subject: H-COST: Westminster Effigies From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:02:33 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> There is one book, The Funeral Effigies of Westminster Abbey, edited by Anothony Harvey and Richard Mortimer. 1994, Boydell Press. ISBN 0-85115-368-2. It's available in hardback and paperback, and still in print. It includes extensive information on all of the effigies and their clothing, with some photographs of items taken off the effigies (there is an excellent b&w photo of QE's corset). However, it was published a year or two before the discovery was made of QE's original corset and drawers. There is a printed errata sheet covering that, that comes with the book. Deborah merouda the true of bornover [21,75]CSuX:a question of detail Subject: Re: H-COST: A Question of Detail From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 16:16:12 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover I believe it was Jean Hunnisett who had an idea on this. Can't remember the source. The method I *do* remember. Take fulled wool and cut into approx. 2-3" squares. Cut in at the corners angling towards the center but stopping about 1/2" - 1" before the center. Do this at each corner. Voila. Cynthia > Hi everyone, I am new to the list and was wondering if anyone could explain > how the detailing on the green dress sleeves of Jan van Eyck's "The Marriage > of Giovanni Arnolfini" could be done. They look like those rag rugs I see in > the craft shops. -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir merouda the true of bornover [20,76]CSuX:a question of detail Subject: Re: H-COST: A Question of Detail From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 16:26:41 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover I should add that when doing the cutting pinking shears would give the best effect. C~ > I believe it was Jean Hunnisett who had an idea on this. Can't remember the > source. The method I *do* remember. Take fulled wool and cut into approx. 2-3" > squares. Cut in at the corners angling towards the center but stopping about > 1/2" - 1" before the center. Do this at each corner. Voila. Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir margo anderson [28,77]CSuX:help! fabric bled... Subject: Re: H-COST: HELP! Fabric bled... From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:35:53 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson At 05:37 PM 6/2/99 EDT, you wrote: > >-Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com > >In a message dated 6/2/1999 4:23:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >DRGurley@aol.com writes: > >> >> >I sometimes have luck using hairspray to get out stubborn marks, including >ballpoint ink. Does anyone know the best method to get ballpoint ink off the inside of the dryer? ;-( I used hairspray on the garments that went through this load, and the cotton T-shirts came out fine. My one silk knit T-shirt is still covered with ink, wouldn't you know? Anyway, I'd like suggestions for the best, safest way to remove the ink from the dryer. Margo penny ladnier [32,78]CSuX:costume trivia (fire safety & skirts) Subject: Re: H-COST: Costume Trivia (Fire safety & skirts) From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:30:57 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" I don't know about fire and skirts but I do recall when I was doing some intense genealogical work that a woman in South Carolina's skirt was caught in the spokes of a carriage wheel. The woman had a horrible death. If memory serves me right, it was mid-19th century. They was some mention that women needed to be careful with their skirts when getting in and out of carriages. I have read many strange accounts of deaths when doing my research. The strangest was a ten year old girl walking across a room with a needle in her hand. She tripped and the needle pierced her heart. She did die. Old local newspapers are full of strange facts about costumes. Court records are also another great place. If there is a trail, costumes seem to be described. These are great sources as how people actually wore and functioned in their costume. I have also found some interesting facts about people during the ACW in the Judge Advocate General letters at the National Archives. These are letters friends and family wrote to the office. I have pulled up very detailed descriptions about people down to their attire and physical characteristics. One letter of interest was how only one man was left in a county during the war. He was helping all the women in the county with chores and upkeep. He was a cobbler and made shoes for free for all the children. ALL the women in the county signed a letter to the "General's" office asking for him to taken into war. Later...Penny (a National and State Archive addict) http://www.costumegallery.com parsla liepa [19,79]CSuX:help! fabric bled... Subject: Re: H-COST: HELP! Fabric bled... From: Parsla Liepa Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:34:31 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: Parsla Liepa [25,80]CSuX:costume trivia (fire safety & skirts) Subject: Re: H-COST: Costume Trivia (Fire safety & skirts) From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 16:39:12 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover I must be missing something but I don't get it. Why would they want him to be taken into war when he was so darned handy to have around? I mean, heck, free shoes for the children. He would have been a godsend. Puzzled, Cynthia > One letter of interest was how only one man was > left in a county during the war. He was helping all the women in the county > with chores and upkeep. He was a cobbler and made shoes for free for all > the children. ALL the women in the county signed a letter to the > "General's" office asking for him to taken into war. > > Later...Penny (a National and State Archive addict) > http://www.costumegallery.com > -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir penny ladnier [11,81]CSuX:costume trivia (fire safety & skirts) Subject: Re: H-COST: Costume Trivia (Fire safety & skirts) From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:48:59 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" Sorry, I left out the word NOT... They did not want him to be taken to war because he was so handy....Penny > ALL the women in the county signed a letter to the >"General's" office asking for him to taken into war. dietmar [27,82]CSuX:cleaning fur Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Cleaning fur From: Dietmar Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:45:20 +0000 -Poster: Dietmar Greetings, Halima/Lynn asked: > What kind of store do you go to to obtain Energine? A few years > ago I looked for "home dry-cleaning fluid" and couldn't figure > out where to get any.... "Energine" is the brand name for a spot remover. It should be available at most grocery/drug/hardware stores. I've seen two different varieties. One was naphtha [aka lighter fluid] and the other was nalgene (?? I'm not sure...it's been years). I'm not the original poster, so I'm not sure which type was implied. Good luck, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." lynn meyer [29,83]CSuX:scottish surcotes Subject: H-COST: Scottish Surcotes From: Lynn Meyer Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 17:31:35 -0700 -Poster: Lynn Meyer Thought I remembered something relevant from the SCA-Garb list recently... and I found it :-) > Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 06:18:25 -0400 > From: Grace Morris > Subject: Re: 15thC Textile color question > > Orange? Ample evidence in Spain, through many centuries, including > orange plaid (cotehardie) and an "apricot chemise bearing lines of brown" > (Ruth Matilda Anderson: Hispanic Costume 1480-1530). > > Jessamyn di Piemonte So it may not be *Scottish*, but a plaid cotehardie surely justifies a plaid sideless surcote? :-) Halima P.S. I own the Anderson book, but it's packed in a box somewhere... allison thurman [16,84]CSuX:qe i s effigy Subject: H-COST: QE I's effigy From: "Allison Thurman" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 20:48:19 -0400 -Poster: "Allison Thurman" i picked up a book at the westminster abbey shop this past spring entitled "the funeral effigies of westminster abbey". it features detailed descriptions of all royal effigies, and photos of those that have survived to present day. queen elizabeth's is shown but evidently it has been extensively restored, and there is no mention of the linen drawers in the book. i dont know if this is available outside of the abbey gift shop - may want to check amazon or amazon uk though. allison missmela@aol.com[18,85]CSuX:1860 bodice Subject: Re: H-COST: 1860 Bodice From: MissMela@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 20:51:14 EDT -Poster: MissMela@aol.com Many mid nineteenth century "dresses" have a completely finished bodice with piping at the waistline (even with a pointed bodice) and a skirt on it's own waistband (often a different fabric) and the bodice is laid on top of the skirt and hand stitched through to the skirt next to the piping cord (sort of stitch in the ditch). Often the pointed area was not stitched down but this is not always the case. For actual examples of this, Janet Arnold's books and Costume in Detail all show this. This allows for you to unstitch and add an evening bodice, using the same skirt. It also takes care of gaping. Your local museum will have period examples that you usually can see this process. Any time you are in Los Angeles, The Los Angeles County Art Museum has the Stella Blum Research Lab and they will allow anyone interested in costuming, with an appointment, to view particular items in their collection. Several 1840s and 1850s dresses in my private collection are constructed this way. This does not mean this is the only way they were done, but it is one way. vickers, jill [49,86]CSuX:1940s shoes Subject: H-COST: 1940s Shoes From: "Vickers, Jill" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:49:29 -0700 -Poster: "Vickers, Jill" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEAD5A.F01C4900 I'm looking for a source in the SF Bay Area for new 1940s style shoes? I'm not going for "die-hard" accuracy, just a close reasonable facsimile. It seemed to me that ballroom dance shoes would work, but I don't think that I want to spend $100 for something that I can't wear outside without ruining them. Any leads would be much appreciated. -Jill ------ =_NextPart_001_01BEAD5A.F01C4900 1940s Shoes

I'm looking for a source in the SF Bay = Area for new 1940s style shoes?  I'm not going for "die-hard" = accuracy, just a close reasonable facsimile.  It seemed to me that = ballroom dance shoes would work, but I don't think that I want to spend = $100 for something that I can't wear outside without ruining = them.

Any leads would be much = appreciated.

-Jill

------ =_NextPart_001_01BEAD5A.F01C4900-- arcadiacb@aol.com[47,87]CSuX:what s underneath Subject: H-COST: Re: What's Underneath From: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 20:53:07 EDT -Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Just adding my two bits, based on observations and common sense. Thought just occurred while reading the posts--have we heard any from our British or other European friends on this subject? Some of the chafing problems have to do with climate--and level of activity and fabric. Many of the SCA and RenFaire people (both periods that I don't personally do) are interpreting people who lived in a locality with a temperature very different from that of the place where they are wearing these clothes. I am originally from Georgia--now Virginia--both area which are very hot and humid in the summer. The year I lived in London (1969) was, at that time, the hottest summer in 10 years--it was about 75 top, with no humidity---I thought it was great, people who lived there thought it was awful. When the early European settlers came to North America, they must have sweltered, as their clothing did not prepare them for these hot summers. There are accounts from the 18th c of men in the streets in their banyons (loose, "at-home" type robes, in the summer in Virginia). I have attended RenFairs and have seen people in heavy wools and velvets--and probably sweltering and chafing. Many seem to dress to the 9s in very elaborate and heavy clothing. The rich folk of the period would probably tend to dress more in lighter silks, or at least a much lighter wool, in hotter weather. Unfortunately, "modern" people do not have all the different weights of linen (from transparent to ship sail canvas) , silk and wool available, just what we can get at the local fabric stores. Second observation---many of our events tend to be in the summer-- read "hot" months--prime tourist time. In previous time periods, the richer folk would have probably not been outside in the hot sun (they didn't have to be and the women definitely did not want a tan!), running around and probably being much more active than most of us are in our "regular lives" The poor folk would have been accustomed to it. Third observation---we "modern" people probably feel the effects of the weather to a much greater extent. We are used to adjusting the weather to suit us and our clothes--not visa versa. We live, work and drive in air-conditioning and heating, so probably feel the changes in the "natural weather" more acutely. If you lived in a time of "all natural weather", your body can adjust more slowly and acclimate better, instead of the drastic changes we artificially give in the temperature.(why is it that on days it's 90--100 outside, the AC is always set on 65?) Just some observations. But when people ask me if I'd like to live "back then"--I always say no, I like AC, showers, flush toilets, microwaves, etc.--even the richest people lived in what we would now consider substandard housing in regard to plumbing, etc.--but doing living history makes you appreciate them and realize what a wasteful and lucky society we are. Again, just my two bits on the subject. Charlene the purple elephant [27,88]CSuX:qe i s effigy Subject: Re: H-COST: QE I's effigy From: The Purple Elephant Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:33:48 +0930 (CST) -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Allison Thurman wrote: > > -Poster: "Allison Thurman" > > i picked up a book at the westminster abbey shop this past spring entitled > "the funeral effigies of westminster abbey". it features detailed > descriptions of all royal effigies, and photos of those that have survived > to present day. queen elizabeth's is shown but evidently it has been > extensively restored, and there is no mention of the linen drawers in the > book. > The effigy or the clothing? (restored that is) I've only ever heard/read off-hand references to the corset on the effigy, but I seem to recall that it may not have been original, but was restored or replaced later on. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ vicki betts [26,89]CSuX:1860 bodice Subject: Re: H-COST: 1860 Bodice From: Vicki Betts Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 20:14:17 -0500 -Poster: Vicki Betts MissMela@aol.com wrote: > -Poster: MissMela@aol.com > > Many mid nineteenth century "dresses" have a completely finished bodice with > piping at the waistline (even with a pointed bodice) and a skirt on it's own > waistband (often a different fabric) and the bodice is laid on top of the > skirt and hand stitched through to the skirt next to the piping cord (sort of > stitch in the ditch). Often the pointed area was not stitched down but this > is not always the case. In your own pointed bodice dresses, does the center back bodice opening line up directly with a center back skirt opening, or is there some sort of dogleg similar to the typical center front bodice opening attachment to an off-center front skirt opening in a straight around waistline of nicer 1860s dresses? (I hope that made sense.....) Vicki Betts vbetts@gower.net susan fatemi [39,90]CSuX:jean harlow style gown Subject: Re: H-COST: Jean Harlow style gown From: Susan Fatemi Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 18:02:21 -0700 -Poster: Susan Fatemi Anah wrote: > > -Poster: Anah > > I am writing because I am currently working on a gown that can be seen @ > http://home.att.net/~design-house/files/page1a.htm > > I know there are books out there on bias sewing, and such, I need to > know the BEST one to get and I need it like yesterday. > > I've not done a whole lot in bias "dressing" and I want to make sure > that I approach this in the right manner, because the dress is being > constructed of Silk Charmeuse. At the per yard cost, I DO NOT want to > make any mistakes, or at the very least, keep them to a minimum. > Hi Anah -- If you're really into this, you should get the Madeleine Vionnet book by Betty Kirke. It's expensive, but amazon has it at a discount. If you're not familiar with Mme Vionnet, she was the one actually making the dresses that women like Harlow (and anyone else with money and fashion sense!) wore. I haven't seen the book myself, but have heard and read good things about it. Went to a lecture recently by one of the other Vionnet experts and she couldn't praise it highly enough. It contains diagrams of the clothes. The warning is that they are only a guide. Ms. Kirke teaches at FIT. Susan -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf lynnx@mc.net[29,91]CSuX:mongols in space Subject: H-COST: Mongols in Space From: lynnx@mc.net Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 20:54:15 -0700 -Poster: lynnx@mc.net Right - the "ramhorn" headgear is a Khalka tribe married woman's style - and completely unmodified from the original design except for being placed on top of the head instead of the back or sides. I've been working on some scans of drawings, photos and pattern layouts for Mongolian garb (including the Khalka *dress* that goes with that headgear. Also have Mongol Jewelry coming (someday?!?) which describes the headdress and its construction pretty precisely. (If they haven't been ripped off from every library on the planet yet, you may be able to ILL Mongol Jewelry and Mongol Costume. That'd about cover your research. If you want, when I finish those scans (I should be working on a del for a friend right now!) I'll send what you're interested in offlist. (Please bear with me if you do, cause I'm unburying from having a roommate [Space - the Final Frontier!!], doing maintenance on the computer, and... and... well, you know the drill.) Heather - -Poster: DC Actually, some of the Queen's costumes smacked strongly of Mongol/Chinese influences. Now to start researching Mongol garb again. robin netherton [55,92]CSuX:a question of detail Subject: Re: H-COST: A Question of Detail From: Robin Netherton Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:41:32 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: Robin Netherton On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Merouda the True of Bornover wrote: > I believe it was Jean Hunnisett who had an idea on this. Can't remember the > source. The method I *do* remember. Take fulled wool and cut into approx. 2-3" > squares. Cut in at the corners angling towards the center but stopping about > 1/2" - 1" before the center. Do this at each corner. Voila. Cynthia The source would be the painting, which is in the National Gallery in London. The detail is very clear when you can look at the original -- I spent a long time sketching it. I have never seen a reproduction that shows the detail as clearly. When you cut in at the corners of the squares, you get shapes something like Maltese crosses. But the squares didn't look separate to me -- rather, they were part of a long strip of cloth. The strip was divided into these squares, with enough bits left connected at certain edges and corners to keep the strip intact. The cut edges were straight (not pinked) and either overcast or buttonhole-stitched with gold thread. The strip was three squares wide, or possibly was three separate strips hung alongside each other. In any case, it was very long, and accordion-folded. Then the folded edges on one side of the folded "stack" were tacked/sewn to the bottom curve of the sleeve. So, the strip looked something like this: \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ /_\ (sorry I can't show the almost-continuous horizontal cuts and the continuous edge across the bottom in ASCII) and then it was folded like this: ___________ ( __________ | ___________) |this edge (___________ |is where the ___________) |folds attach (___________ |to the curved ___________) |lower seam of (___________ |the sleeve. --Robin annbwass@aol.com[9,93]CSuX:costume trivia (fire safety & skirts) Subject: Re: H-COST: Costume Trivia (Fire safety & skirts) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:25:57 EDT -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com I found some strange stories when I was doing my dyes research. But, when I read the same story in sources 10 years apart, I began to wonder if "urban folklore" wasn't alive and well during the 19th century. So take some of these with a grain of salt. Ann Wass annbwass@aol.com[6,94]CSuX:help! fabric bled... Subject: Re: H-COST: HELP! Fabric bled... From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:27:02 EDT -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com Be careful with acetone. It eats some plastics. Ann Wass gaelscot@aol.com[31,95]CSuX:dye remover Subject: H-COST: Re: dye remover From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:52:57 EDT -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com Dani: I haven't seen the commercial you mentioned, but I have used a dye remover designed to be used in the wash. Someone on this list recommended it, actually. All I can say is -- beware! I forget the name, but it was from Germany and I bought in a fabric store. There was enough for one wash. I washed two of my daughter's dresses that had accidentally been washed with a red dress that bled. I figured they were ruined anyway, so what could it hurt? One, a white jumper with a red-checked skirt, was still ruined at the end of the wash. The stain came out, but all the red in the checks had faded to a burnt brown color that was extremely ugly. The second, a bright yellow sweatshirt dress (from After the Stork, a very expensive children's clothing company -- I bought it at Gabriel's for $5!) looked perfect when I took it out of the washer after its second (extra) rinse. But when I took it out if the dryer it was GREEN! Yes, a dirty sort of chartreuse, not the bright chartreuse now in style. She got some more wear out of it as a play dress, but it was not presentable. I don't know what happened there, but it was a lesson in chemistry for me. Namely, a lot of stuff goes on with dyes in the washer and dryer! So if I were you, I'd see what I could do to that doublet before I tried something so drastic. Gail Finke kat & kent [12,96]CSuX:dye remover Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: dye remover From: Kat & Kent Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 22:13:05 -0500 -Poster: Kat & Kent Actually I think what the original poster is referring to is something called something like "dye magnet". It's a white cloth that's good for 15 loads. I've used two and they do seem to 'catch' some of the 'loose' dye because neither one is white anymore! The first one I got is very, very blue while the second is blue with bits of red (something red got through...I normally wash reds & pinks as a separate load in cold). Kat beth [51,97]CSuX:museums & misinformation Subject: H-COST: Museums & Misinformation From: "Beth" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 23:58:23 -0400 -Poster: "Beth" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BEAD53.CC9721A0 I did not hear the wet skirt story from Old Bethpage, actually it was = the House of Seven Gables. Just so no one thought it was their = neighborhood museum I thought I would clarify the issue. Given their = admission rate (especially in comparison to the length of the tour) they = should be more than sufficiently funded to provide in-depth training as = well as decent costumes. But don't even start me on the "costumes" I saw = there. If anyone visits Salem, Mass. visit the Salem Pioneer Village. It = is run by the same people as House of Seven Gables but the contrast is = striking. The costumes were good (not my period so I can't attest to = details) and the interpreters were great.=20 Beth ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BEAD53.CC9721A0
I did not hear the wet skirt story from Old = Bethpage, actually=20 it was the House of Seven Gables. Just so no one thought it was their=20 neighborhood museum I thought I would clarify the issue. Given their = admission=20 rate (especially in comparison to the length of the tour) they should be = more=20 than sufficiently funded to provide in-depth training as well as decent=20 costumes. But don't even start me on the "costumes" I saw there. If = anyone=20 visits Salem, Mass. visit the Salem Pioneer Village. It is run by the = same=20 people as House of Seven Gables but the contrast is striking. The = costumes were=20 good (not my period so I can't attest to details) and the interpreters = were=20 great.
 
Beth
------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BEAD53.CC9721A0-- lois [27,98]CSuX:bias Subject: H-COST: Re: bias From: Lois Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:14:40 +0000 -Poster: Lois > > Hi Anah -- > > If you're really into this, you should get the Madeleine Vionnet > book by Betty Kirke. It's expensive, but amazon has it at a discount. > If you're not familiar with Mme Vionnet, she was the one actually > making the dresses that women like Harlow (and anyone else with > money and fashion sense!) wore. > Susan > - -- > Susan and Anah, The Kirke book is great. It's a must have. It retails for $100 but you can order it from Amazon.com for $70 or B & N online for $60. Lois ----------------------- Lois Mueller Wooden Porch Books books@woodenporch.com missmela@aol.com[10,99]CSuX:1860 bodice Subject: Re: H-COST: 1860 Bodice From: MissMela@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:52:48 EDT -Poster: MissMela@aol.com Actually, I understood what you meant! The front opening dresses (later ones, 1850s on) have the skirt opening off center from any where from 2 inches to 4 inches. The back opening ones (the majority of the ones I have) open down the back on the skirt part also. There are a few that are cartridge/gauged right onto the finished bodice with no waistband. These are cotton dresses. Hope this helps. Mela melanie wilson [64,100]CSuX:underwear was what to wear Subject: H-COST: Underwear was what to wear From: Melanie Wilson Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 02:40:45 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson Before I carry on I must say half of my reply isn't making it to the list so if it dosen't make complete sense or hasn't got Mel at the end it probably isn';t all there, it is a pain . Anyway.. >I've seen lots of underwear pictures but not in the nobility. Lots of chemises (still with no indication of whether there was something under them) Yes by underwear I meant knickers, I used underwear as I know you don't call them pants like we do, it was plainer if the rest of my posting had made it :( >and men in "briefs". The pictures seem to be of people at work, either in the fields, the bathhouse, or sometimes at rest. 13th C braies are pretty common in men as far as I'm aware and either worn along when working or tucked into hose. > The most graphic picture I remember is of three peasants warming themselves in front of fire with their tunics and skirts raised. Neither the men or women are wearing under "pants" their genitals there for all to see. Personally I think it would be healthier that way > Knowing that men wore briefs or not depending on the activity it seems a logical step to the idea that women *might* have too. For me, the jury's still out. :) I can't see a reason for them to myself, it is inconvenient to squat to go to the loo with a long skirt & pant type arrangements. In fact practically impossible in the middle of a field not to get something wet ! Once you get to Victorian era & can use loos the split arrangement works very well. The chafing in my opinion could be worse at certain (fertile ) times of the month, due to normaly bodily function of feminine mositure (isn't that what the ads call it ?). However with more pregnacies, longer breastfeeding times etc, this is reduced and hence chafing....an idea anyway, born out by my experiance. Another related thing might be our over production of this by our bodies in response to synthetic & tight fitting knickers , which dosen't go away instantly in the day or so we are in kit ? Similar to washing your hair means more grease is produced, but not washing your hair it stays at a natural level. I have to confess I feel SOMETHING must have been under there during menstruation, but we have been through that all before :) >Heh. Not often enough. *sigh* *VBG* Seems to me I heard a story on this list of a "tourist" doing just that. Lifting a ladies skirts to see if she was wearing the right stuff underneath!! I believe that , I've been asked a few times ! Hope this all made it ! Mel melanie wilson [9,101]CSuX:dear list owner Subject: H-COST: Dear list owner From: Melanie Wilson Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 02:40:41 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson Only half of the posting I send makes it to this list, failing to get my full point across. Can you PLEASE tell me why ?( Ie half the post, not half of the posts) Mel melanie wilson [13,102]CSuX:what s underneath Subject: H-COST: What's Underneath From: Melanie Wilson Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 02:40:43 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Just adding my two bits, based on observations and common sense. Thought just occurred while reading the posts--have we heard any from our British or other European friends on this subject? Yes I'm british, and in England. I did say about the weather but the list keeps eating half my posting. and no I or as far as I know non of my friends get it. Mel deborah & lisa r. [13,103]CSuX:half posts Subject: Re: H-COST: Half Posts From: "Deborah & Lisa R." Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 03:46:45 -0400 -Poster: "Deborah & Lisa R." This half-posting problem seems to be happening to a few people on other lists too-I don't know why... -Lisa > the list keeps eating half my posting. > > Mel meribeth mccombs [18,104]CSuX:baby & children s clothing Subject: H-COST: Baby & Children's Clothing From: Meribeth McCombs Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 07:14:38 -0700 -Poster: Meribeth McCombs Hi All.. I was wondering if anyone out there had any possible sources for information on infant and children's clothing in the Victorian Era. THe local library has little and that is very, very generalistic. Not much of anything besides the usual comments about both sexes wearing dresses for several years. Any suggestions would be welcome, so I can get organized before coming out of my "confinement" and getting back to the living history. Thanks! MeriBeth elizabeth higgins [23,105]CSuX:what s underneath Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: What's Underneath From: Elizabeth Higgins Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:27:02 +0100 -Poster: Elizabeth Higgins Hi Charlene, At 20:53 02/06/99 -0400, you wrote: >have we heard any from our >British or other European friends on this subject? >The year I lived in London (1969) was, at that time, the >hottest summer in 10 years--it was about 75 top, with no humidity---I thought >it was great, people who lived there thought it was awful. Things have changed since then and now the temperature in London hits the high 80's and it's usually with 90% humidity or more, very uncomfortable and very, very few homes have airconditioning over here. Anyway on the subject of chaffing I personally have no problems whatsoever, no matter what the temperature whether I am wearing modern or Victorian dress. Lissa luiseach@aol.com[16,106]CSuX:help! fabric bled... Subject: Re: H-COST: HELP! Fabric bled... From: Luiseach@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:21:09 EDT -Poster: Luiseach@aol.com First, call up someplace that sells fabric painting and dying supplies; I'd suggest Dharma Trading or Rupert, Gibbon & Spyder and ask the helpful and knowledgeable person on the phone what they have that might help you. Based on my own experience with dyes that transfered, you might have some luck re-washing it with Synthrapol; it's supposed to keep dyes that run from depositing on other things but it also seems to lighten dye stains if they haven't been heat set. Usual disclaimer, just a happy customer of both businesses. Lucinda in Riverside, southern California -- where it is currently cold and rainy, which is too wierd. kat [63,107]CSuX:fire safety & skirts misinformation Subject: RE: H-COST: Fire safety & skirts Misinformation From: kat Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:50:54 -0400 -Poster: kat Regarding the fire safety issue, I read in a book I picked up at the library that stated women would put a 3" wide strip of wool around the bottom of cotton skirts to act as a spark guard. I mentioned this to a woman who was doing an F&I period corset and clothing class, and she said she had never heard of such a thing. Opinions? Kat Hargus owner, Making Time www.makingtime.com begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(B@-`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`H $```$````0`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&@M8V]S='5M94!I;F1R82YC;VT`4TU4 M4 !H+6-O2 F('-K:7)T# $````%````4TU44 `` M```>`!\,`0````\```!K871 :F%N<@K %; 4T!@1'\ M=&D3P1R2! `>8QFR`Y'.=Q'0&; >X61O%)(#D?Q&)A=1!G$$ +L4%H&T0@W,Q-RE)"Z46-"CJ M$C$`,% ````#`! 0``````,`$1 ``````P" $/____] ``MO@% M``@PX*W2R,>MO@$+``" "" &``````# ````````1@`````#A0````````,` M`H (( 8``````, ```````!&`````!"%`````````P`%@ @@!@``````P `` M`````$8`````4H4``+<-```>`"6 "" &``````# ````````1@````!4A0`` M`0````0````X+C ``P`F@ @@!@``````P ```````$8``````84````````+ M`"^ "" &``````# ````````1@`````.A0````````,`,( (( 8``````, ` M``````!&`````!&%`````````P`R@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````&(4` M```````>`$& "" &``````# ````````1@`````VA0```0````$````````` M'@!"@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````-X4```$````!`````````!X`0X ( M( 8``````, ```````!&`````#B%```!`````0`````````>`#T``0````4` 4``!213H@``````,`#33]-P``X0Z% ` end merlyncc@aol.com[10,108]CSuX:j of arc armor Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: j of arc armor From: Merlyncc@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:09:01 EDT -Poster: Merlyncc@aol.com Has anyone found a reasonable fabric facsimile for chainmail? We're getting requests, and I have not been satisfied with anything I've found. Thanks in advance! Priscilla Schmitz kat & kent [20,109]CSuX:j of arc armor Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: j of arc armor From: Kat & Kent Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:21:55 -0500 -Poster: Kat & Kent Merlyncc@aol.com wrote: > > Has anyone found a reasonable fabric facsimile for chainmail? We're > getting requests, and I have not been satisfied with anything I've > found. > > Thanks in advance! Is it for stage? For stage I used sweaters for the halberks (sp?) and for the coifs I cut up sweaters in a coif and then spray painted them all chrome silver. I've also made up a coif in the metallic spangle material (not quite sure how to describe it!). Both look fine from stage but the spray painted ones often need to be touched up between performances and it's best to use gray or cream colored sweaters. Kat kate m bunting [9,110]CSuX:underwear/british weather Subject: H-COST: Underwear/British weather From: "KATE M BUNTING" Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 15:42:33 +0100 -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" I think Charlene is probably right. We did have a couple of long hot summers a few years back, but in general a really fine, warm day seems like a rare treat here (it's raining outside right now, and the temperature cool). I've never heard of any woman reenactor needing to wear pantaloons to stop chafing, or seen them on sale at events. Kate Bunting King's Lifeguard of Foote, Sealed Knot merouda the true of bornover [20,111]CSuX:scottish surcotes Subject: Re: H-COST: Scottish Surcotes From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 08:27:17 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover This prompted my memory a bit. In the Museum of London Textiles and Clothing there is a largish sleeve fragment. It was originally red and white checky. Cynthia > > Orange? Ample evidence in Spain, through many centuries, including > > orange plaid (cotehardie) > So it may not be *Scottish*, but a plaid cotehardie surely justifies > a plaid sideless surcote? :-) -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir merouda the true of bornover [19,112]CSuX:a question of detail Subject: Re: H-COST: A Question of Detail From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 08:40:51 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover Wow! Thanks for all the detail. Now, can you tell us how she got her veil all crinkley? :) Cynthia > The source would be the painting, which is in the National Gallery in > London. The detail is very clear when you can look at the original -- I > spent a long time sketching it. I have never seen a reproduction that > shows the detail as clearly. -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir cynthia j ley [19,113]CSuX:a question of detail Subject: Re: H-COST: A Question of Detail From: cynthia j ley Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:58:02 EDT -Poster: cynthia j ley Greetings. Does anyone know of a good source for Mongol patterns, partcularly fancy garb? I'm a fairly elementry seamstress, so the simpler the better. Thank you for your help. Arlys You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] cynthia j ley [18,114]CSuX:underwear, you asked for it! Subject: Re: H-COST: Underwear, you asked for it! From: cynthia j ley Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:58:02 EDT -Poster: cynthia j ley In AN UNDERGROUND EDUCATION (Richard Zacks, Doubleday, 1997), one of the theories regarding why European ladies wore no underdrawers was because of the risk of thrush and yeast infections, promoted by lack of proper hygiene. Ladies in countries where bathing was more common do not seem to have had this problem, or at least not as much. Arlys You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] kat@grendal.rain.com[31,115]CSuX:info on q elizabeth s effigy Subject: Re: H-COST: Info on Q Elizabeth's Effigy From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:46:33 +0000 -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > Speaking of the effigy, does anyone know of any articles/publications > covering it? The funeral Effigies of Westminster Abbey Edited by Anthony Harvey and Richard Mortimer ISBN 0-85115-368-2 L10 at the Westminster Abbey Museum shop (which, durn it, is closed during the Wednesday night time when photos are allowed or I would have taken several pictures of the effigy) as of the end of April 1999 when I bought my copy. There's also a postcard showing the corset (and the nonfitting underwear.) There's also an article at the library at Westminster Abbey about the Elizabeth I underwear. I have a copy of it somewhere in my house, but haven't been able to find it the last few times I've looked. You might try writing to the library at Westminster Abbey. They would probably send you a copy of that article. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! kat@grendal.rain.com[35,116]CSuX:16 c drawers Subject: Re: H-COST: 16 c drawers From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:46:33 +0000 -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > There is at least one pair of late 16th century linen drawers in England: > the two pieces of original clothing on the Queen Elizabeth I effigy at > Westminster are a pair of drawers and a corset, both worn in life by the > queen. The drawers are perfectly plain linen, unlike the embellished ones > (which I believe are Italian) Janet included in Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe > Unlocked (published before the effigy clothing was discovered and > examined.) I wonder if those are really 16th Century drawers. The corset looks like it belongs on the effigy. However, the drawers don't seem to fit the effigy. They seem to have a button closure but the front is open to the point where the button/buttonhole areas are resting on her hips. They aren't close enough to join even if someone sucked in a gut. The corset, on the other hand, is front closure and is spiral laced with very little if any opening in front. In "The Funeral Effigies of Westminster Abbey" they talk about the effigy. Some items are original but other parts date to the 18th Century. I feel that the underwear on the effigy probably are from that later time period. They don't fit the effigy and seem to be from a later time. Also, they are not discussed when they are talking about the clothing put on the effigy. (Of course, if there is an errata page, it wasn't included in my copy, drat it!) Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! kat@grendal.rain.com[49,117]CSuX:underwear was what to wear Subject: Re: H-COST: Underwear was what to wear From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:46:33 +0000 -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > However, I know that I do chafe and *MUST* wear some sort of protection, > whether it was period or not. My undergarments might not be 14th century > undergarments but my thighs don't care if it's 15-16th century Italian. At > least it's not modern (except when I wear my bike shorts). For me the pain > is unbearable on hot days. IMHO, a line can be drawn for authenticity vs. > modern for health/physical pain concerns. It's not period to wear > sunglasses either, but I'll wear them till I die to fend off migraines. It seems to me that we do what we have to do to stay comfortable. It doesn't matter what a medieval woman or renaissance woman did for underwear if you yourself can't go without it. Unless it is for structural reasons (such as a corset or hoops or petticoats), I don't think wearing panties or something similar even matters for contests (unless you're claiming that it *has* to be period because you need it.) Hopefully, when at a Renn Fair, SCA or an historical costume event, no one is checking under your petticoats to see what you are wearing. Wear what you need to, in good health! As to what is seen in pictures, in one of my books there is an early 17th Century painting of a woman falling off horseback. She is geared up with long stockings held up with a tied garter, but her muff is clearly seen without any drawers of any kind over them. I've actually found very few pictures of men *without* some sort of brief/drawers, the picture of the people warming their cockles by the fire being the only one know of. Because of the class I teach of pre 1650 underwear (men's and women's) I'm constantly on the outlook for pictures of what goes under the clothes. I was greatly amused when I found a painting of Christ carrying the cross, with portions of his male genitalia falling out of his drawers. It reminded me of an event I went to about 15 years ago where there was a man dressed as Ghandi. He was drooping out of the drapings. I very quietly informed him that he was exposed and needed to go put himself back into his wrappings. He indignantly argued with me that he was not exposed and he would know it if he would. I was very amused when he later came back to me and apologized for not taking my word for it (since I was only trying to do him a favor, not tell him he didn't know how to costume.) Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! marsha j. hamilton [17,118]CSuX:ritual hair removal Subject: Re: H-COST: Ritual Hair removal From: "Marsha J. Hamilton" Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 12:43:14 -0400 -Poster: "Marsha J. Hamilton" Hair removal was practiced in ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome, the medieval Middle East, and in other cultures by certain parts of the population. It's a time-intensive practice -- so that might indicate ties to culturally-bound concepts of status as well as cultural ideas of "beauty." Seems folks who have the time and wherewithal to continually remove any sign of hair from face, armpits, legs, or "bikini area" (as it is called in US) is certainly not spending all their time hunting & gathering for a living. Also, in the US, we have been trained by ads into being horrified by the possibility of bodily odor. Removing hair from areas of perspiration ties into that. Any anthropologists out there? annbwass@aol.com[12,119]CSuX:baby & children s clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Baby & Children's Clothing From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:06:03 EDT -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com Two good sources: Priscilla Dalrymple, American Victorian Costume in Early Photographs (many of them children.) Dover, 1991. Should be available directly from them. 31 E. 2nd St., Mineola NY 11501. Anne Buck, Clothes and the Child. NY: Holmes and Meier, 1996. Ann Wass stitchwitch [31,120]CSuX:baby & children s clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Baby & Children's Clothing From: "StitchWitch" Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:39:00 PDT -Poster: "StitchWitch" > Two good sources: > Priscilla Dalrymple, American Victorian Costume in Early Photographs (many of > them children.) Dover, 1991. Should be available directly from them. 31 E. > 2nd St., Mineola NY 11501. > > Anne Buck, Clothes and the Child. NY: Holmes and Meier, 1996. > > Ann Wass The latest calendar from the Costume Society of America has several lovely childrens outfits pictured. There is also a page of references, which may be of use. Kate ---- StitchWitch Man is certainly stark mad: he cannot make a flea, yet he makes gods by the dozens. - Montaigne, Essays - 1588 Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ nancy santella [14,121]CSuX:underware Subject: H-COST: Underware From: "Nancy Santella" Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:55:49 -0400 -Poster: "Nancy Santella" I remember my mom told me that in the begining of this century most women wore cloth folded up in a loin cloth type arrangment for menstruation ( rags ) that is probably where the praise came from "on the rag" that I hear teenagers use. Anna OftderTurm Life is a Party. Each day is a gift, to be opened with Anticipation, Joy and Thankfulness. gerekr@aol.com[28,122]CSuX:a question of detail Subject: Re: Re: H-COST: A Question of Detail From: Gerekr@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 15:03:38 EDT -Poster: Gerekr@aol.com On 6/2/99 4:15 PM h-costume@indra.com wrote: >I believe it was Jean Hunnisett who had an idea on this. Can't remember the >source. The method I *do* remember. Take fulled wool and cut into >approx. 2-3" >squares. Cut in at the corners angling towards the center but stopping about >1/2" - 1" before the center. Do this at each corner. Voila. Cynthia > >> Hi everyone, I am new to the list and was wondering if anyone could explain >> how the detailing on the green dress sleeves of Jan van Eyck's "The Marriage >> of Giovanni Arnolfini" could be done. They look like those rag rugs I see in >> the craft shops. Don't we have a smocking expert here (on the list) somewhere? I've never tried doing this, but, looking at the figure in Boucher (fig. 344, facing p. 101), where Mrs Arnolfini is about 10 inches tall altogether, it looks to me like a really large-scale smocking, with the edges finished fancy, maybe a shell hem? Maybe beads? Tho I can see how it also looks somewhat like a pinked edge... Chimene pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[50,123]CSuX:effigy Subject: H-COST: effigy From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 16:12:25 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> According to Janet Arnold, Santina Levey and other costume historians who studied all of the pieces, the corset, drawers and effigy figure itself (*not* the wax head!) are the originals from 1603, and were not replaced in the 18c with the rest of the items. Janet felt strongly that the corset and drawers were original, and were from QE's wardrobe, and were in fact items the queen had worn herself. You'll notice in Janet's commentary in the book that she says closer examination is necessary -- the book is based on study of the clothing on the figures, which is why the drawers aren't even mentioned, and was published just before the figure was dismantled for conservation (see below.) I disagree that the drawers don't fit the figure. I think they simply don't fit the way modern drawers would. The sheet now issued with the book (and distributed in the Undercroft Museum) says: The Effigies of Queen Elizabeth I The clothes of the 1760 effigy were cleaned and repaired in 1994-5, with a new ruff and with synthetic ermine to replace the modern knitted border on the mantle. In the course of restoration it was discovered that the original wooden framework of the 1603 effigy had been reused in 1760, complete with the original grass padding, drawers and corset (or 'paire of straight-bodies'). This unique garment is likely to have been one of a stock of corsets kept ready for use, needing only to be lined with silk before being worn by the Queen. Its use on the effigy would have made it easy to shape the body to represent the Queen's figure correctly. The 1760 effigy has been provided with a new wooden framework, allowing the 1603 effigy and undergarments to be displayed separately. **** Westminster Abbey originally planned to put the original effigy back together, covering up the corset and drawers. They relented only after strenuous objections and lobbying on the part of costume historians. lynnx@mc.net[13,124]CSuX:arnolfini sleeve detail Subject: H-COST: Arnolfini sleeve detail From: lynnx@mc.net Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 16:02:47 -0700 -Poster: lynnx@mc.net Just looked at my copy of Hunnisett and she says to *box pleat* several layers (of 2-3" wide strips, I assume) then pink in towards the center from each corner.. I guess you have to tack the box pleating in place somehow, and I wasn't clear on whether the strips were pleated onto the garment first and then pinked, or done before hand (which would require extra work to tack the box pleats in place). Hope this helps, Heather andrea clef [23,125]CSuX:body hair Subject: H-COST: body hair From: Andrea Clef Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:57:53 +0200 -Poster: Andrea Clef In several books about fashion in the Middle Ages I have read that noble women also shaved off all their body hair when it became popular to shave the forehead. But I don`t know where people deduct this assumption from and I can`t imagine how that could ever be proved. I do believe though that this shaving came into fashion in newer times when the skirts became shorter and after the invention of nylon stockings because one sees the leg hair even more when these are worn. And it`s a cultural beauty ideal as well, Islamic women are said to shave all their body hair although most of them wear long skirts. Greetings, Diana dc [10,126]CSuX:body hair Subject: Re: H-COST: body hair From: DC Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 17:43:39 +0100 -Poster: DC Not too sure about the Islamic women. When I was a nurse we used to get a lot of patients from Iran/Iraq (this was about 20 years ago) and believe me those ladies hadn't shaved. Brigantia margo anderson [14,127]CSuX:hair, chafing, etc Subject: Re: H-COST: hair, chafing, etc From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 16:05:08 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson >As for deleting, it isn't so easy if you're getting this in "digest" >form. So... we keep it kind of "middle of the road", taking topics >offlist if they lean more heavily toward the health than the costume >questions? The h-fem list was created for this type of discussion. To subscribe, go to http://www.onelist.com/ and search for h-fem. Margo bill and/or glenna jo christen [32,128]CSuX:1860 s bodice Subject: H-COST: Re: 1860's Bodice From: Bill and/or Glenna Jo Christen Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 19:17:15 -0400 -Poster: Bill and/or Glenna Jo Christen > Some place I read about skirts and bodices being tied or hooked together > in mid 19th century - does anyone know of a book describing this? I have > a waist length bodice which drops down into a deep point in the front, > I'm wearing it with a separate skirt which is pleated onto a waistband. The idea that skirts and bodices were hooked together is a modern 'reenactorism' probably based on the number of bodices that have survived sans skirt. The skirts were most likely removed and the nice big panels of fabric were used for other garments. The only time bodices and skirts were separates in this period were when the bodice extended well below the waist as in peplum bodices, etc. _Costume in Detail_ by Nancy Bradfield shows examples of this style of separate skirt and bodice. In all other examples, the skirt was either sewn directly onto the bodice, or when a skirt may have a day and an evening bodice, they were stitched together as another poster pointed out. FYI, Deep points on bodices for day wear tends to be more of a late 1840's into the 1850's rather than 1860's. Back fastening dresses were only worn by children at least by the mid 1850's. Glenna Jo "At last an era I know something about! :-)) Christen gwjchris@rust.net Visit our web site, "The Curiosity Shop" http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/ gaelscot@aol.com[13,129]CSuX:what s happening? Subject: H-COST: what's happening? From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 19:28:58 EDT -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com First Mel complains that half of her messages aren't getting through (I haven't gotten any messages on my digest that were missing parts). And THEN, after I read Digest 350, Digest 351 contained a number of replies to originals I have never seen. What's going on? Gail Finke kathryn l. herb [29,130]CSuX:underwear was what to wear Subject: Re: H-COST: Underwear was what to wear From: "Kathryn L. Herb" Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 19:37:39 EDT -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:02:13 -0500 "Sterling Ranne" writes: >A better 'preventative' would be Talcum powder (please note, not corn >starch.) Applied several times a day "before" symptoms appear will >create >a more frictionless surface for the skin to rub against. Sterling, I wholeheartedly agree with that. At events I always have my jumbo size Shower to Shower with me. I prefer the little bit of cornstarch in that, but can only imagine what using nothing but cornstarch would create! Keeping the skin-against-skin areas dry and, as you mention, frictionless, seems to be more the ticket than anything. And the preventive routine does make it work better. Kay kayherb@juno.com You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] kathryn l. herb [30,131]CSuX:body hair Subject: Re: H-COST: body hair From: "Kathryn L. Herb" Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 19:37:39 EDT -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" On Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:57:53 +0200 Andrea Clef writes: > >I do believe though that this shaving came into fashion in newer times >when the skirts became shorter >and after the invention of nylon stockings because one sees the leg >hair >even more >when these are worn. That seems to be the consensus, judging by the private posts I've received. DeBeers did the same sort of thing with diamond engagement rings which quickly became the "only" decent thing to give your honey, thanks to their advertising. I'm still trying to get a handle on why body hair became so repulsive. What mental process came into play that made something apparently not worth noting become a sign of carelessness, lack of self-respect or whatever? Was it maybe a side effect of the drive toward more youthful appearance in general? Kay kayherb@juno.com You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] penny ladnier [17,132]CSuX:baby & children s clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Baby & Children's Clothing From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 19:51:38 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" I have an article about girls wear in the 1890s on my website, called "Dressing Our Little Women", http://www.costumegallery.com/LHJ/Sept_1893/Girls/p25dress.htm . I have more articles from various times that we are going to place our site, but it will be awhile. The Valentine Museum currently has an exhibit on 200 years of childrenswear. There was a small catalog printed. You might want to call there at 804-649-0711. Later...Penny http://www.costumegallery.com julie adams [31,133]CSuX:spanish costume Subject: Re: H-COST: Spanish Costume From: Julie Adams Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 19:38:15 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Julie Adams > I am trying to find resources pertaining to Spanish costume circa >1540's. Even though it is a bit earlier , try Hispanic Costume, 1480-1530, Ruth Matilda Anderson, published by The Hispanic Society of America, New York, 1979 and a bit later: Sofonisba Anguissola, The first Great Woman Artist of the Renaissance, by Ilya Sandra Perlingieri, Rizzoli Press There is also a Dover book with Renaissance woodcuts of the Trachtenbuch. I think its available on Amazon. You might also want to look at the German Single Leaf Woodcut Series for that time period. The men's military costumes are pretty much identical between German and Spanish. The women's costumes are different, though... You might check out the latest Osprey series books (look in stores that cater to miniature painters and wargamers) or the Arms and Uniforms Series called "The Age of Chivalry by Liliane and Fred Funcken Julie Adams julie adams [40,134]CSuX:baby & children s clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Baby & Children's Clothing From: Julie Adams Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 19:38:05 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Julie Adams I'm not sure which part of the 19th c you are into but here are a few in addition to Ann's suggestions: Children's Fashions of the Past in Photographs, Alison Mager, Dover book (cool pictures but undated) Yesterday's Children, The Antiques and History of Child Care, Sally Kevill-Davies, The Antique Collector's Club (has excellent examples of baby stuff too...) Godey's Ladies Book, Dover Press Fashions from Harper's Bazarre, Dover Press (both of the above have children in the background of many plates.) How the Other Half Lives, Jacob A. Riis, Dover Press, (excellent photos of late 19th c immigrants and poor) Sutter's Fort State Historic Park Costume Manual (1845) by David Rickman (who is on this list...) The Victorians, Photographic Portraits, Audrey Linkman, Tauris Parke books (some children photos) Tidings from the 19th C, Beth Gilgun, Rebel press (some basic late 17th/early 18th c attire) The Workwomens Guide, c 1838 facsimile (lots of patterns laid out and discussion of baby and children's clothing and accessories, most of the baby and young child stuff works for later in the century as well.) The Old West Series, Time Life -- many of the books show children in background pictures. Also, victorian baby shoes, mocassins, gowns, teethers and lots of photos can usually be found on Ebay. A lot of post mortem baby shots, but I actually ended up getting a period baby walker for only $35 that is almost identical to the ones as far back as the 16th c. Anyway, you can always capture the photos of items to create your own library of images.... What period/kind of re-enacting are you doing? Julie Adams nancy santella [15,135]CSuX:digest lost #351 Subject: H-COST: digest lost #351 From: "Nancy Santella" Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:47:06 -0400 -Poster: "Nancy Santella" Could some one who gets the digest please forward all of digest # 351 to me. When I recieved it there was only one item of text included. Thank you, Anna OftderTurm Life is a Party. Each day is a gift, to be opened with Anticipation, Joy and Thankfulness. gwnvr@aol.com[10,136]CSuX:feather question Subject: H-COST: Feather question From: Gwnvr@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 00:17:26 EDT -Poster: Gwnvr@aol.com I see lots of ostrich plumes on hats & fans of the rennaisance era at fairs,etc. Is this accurate? Do ostriches live in other countries besides Australia? Was Australia even discovered during this time? I hope I'm not asking a dumb questions but I've got to know! Jen hicks, melissa [30,137]CSuX:feather question Subject: RE: H-COST: Feather question From: "HICKS, MELISSA" Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 14:24:38 +1000 -Poster: "HICKS, MELISSA" Ostriches don't come from Australia. We have Emus. Much different bird. Regards Meliora Lochac (Australia) > ---------- > From: Gwnvr@aol.com[SMTP:Gwnvr@aol.com] > Reply To: h-costume@indra.com > Sent: Friday, 4 June 1999 14:17 > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Feather question > > > -Poster: Gwnvr@aol.com > > I see lots of ostrich plumes on hats & fans of the rennaisance era > at > fairs,etc. Is this accurate? Do ostriches live in other countries > besides > Australia? Was Australia even discovered during this time? I hope I'm > not > asking a dumb questions but I've got to know! > > Jen > the purple elephant [23,138]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: H-COST: Feather question From: The Purple Elephant Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 15:05:34 +0930 (CST) -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Fri, 4 Jun 1999 Gwnvr@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: Gwnvr@aol.com > > I see lots of ostrich plumes on hats & fans of the rennaisance era at > fairs,etc. Is this accurate? Do ostriches live in other countries besides > Australia? Was Australia even discovered during this time? I hope I'm not > asking a dumb questions but I've got to know! > Um, ostriches live in Africa...emus live in Australia...:-) Whether Renaisannce persons actually used ostrich feathers, I cannot say. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ julie adams [22,139]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: H-COST: Feather question From: Julie Adams Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 21:34:36 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Julie Adams >-Poster: Gwnvr@aol.com > > I see lots of ostrich plumes on hats & fans of the rennaisance era at >fairs,etc. Is this accurate? Ostrich plumes are especially common in early German Renaissance costumes, and can be seen as hat decorations on Elizabethan-era costumes from many countries. > Do ostriches live in other countries besides >Australia? Was Australia even discovered during this time? Ostriches are from Africa, Emus are from Australia... and yes, Africa was discovered by then. Julie Adams blackcat =^..^= [12,140]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: H-COST: Feather question From: "BlackCat =^..^=" Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 21:35:07 -0700 -Poster: "BlackCat =^..^=" > Whether Renaisannce persons actually used ostrich feathers, I cannot say. I honestly don't know where they were obtained, but they were there. As someone who [researches] and plays a landsknecht at faire, I can say this with absolute certainty ;-) --Chris gia gavino-gattshall [78,141]CSuX:underwear was what to wear Subject: Re: H-COST: Underwear was what to wear From: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 21:54:27 -0700 -Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Well, since we seem to be getting into the *ahem* underside of things, jockstraps and such...I'm putting forth a query that I've hesitated to before..about the proper wearing of codpieces...not that I'd be wearing one, but from a researching point of things...being a researchaholic... In Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion c. 1560 - 1620, she has a lovely drawing or schematic of the codpiece with what looks like a 'special' compartment for the..a...well, I will assume you will all know what I mean and I was wondering if that was just a small indentation for comfort or if it was used for..ahem..pocketing the unmentioned appendage... The comments on the page referencing her drawing says that there are traces of straw inside the top of the codpiece...I'm wondering if that'd be *awfully* uncomfortable... Oh and the drawing is on page 59, 4E So I was wondering if anyone has actually seen a surviving codpiece, or at least a more detailed reporting, and if the condition of the garment gives any clues. Gia/Giacinta as always...curious... -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > However, I know that I do chafe and *MUST* wear some sort of protection, > whether it was period or not. My undergarments might not be 14th century > undergarments but my thighs don't care if it's 15-16th century Italian. At > least it's not modern (except when I wear my bike shorts). For me the pain > is unbearable on hot days. IMHO, a line can be drawn for authenticity vs. > modern for health/physical pain concerns. It's not period to wear > sunglasses either, but I'll wear them till I die to fend off migraines. It seems to me that we do what we have to do to stay comfortable. It doesn't matter what a medieval woman or renaissance woman did for underwear if you yourself can't go without it. Unless it is for structural reasons (such as a corset or hoops or petticoats), I don't think wearing panties or something similar even matters for contests (unless you're claiming that it *has* to be period because you need it.) Hopefully, when at a Renn Fair, SCA or an historical costume event, no one is checking under your petticoats to see what you are wearing. Wear what you need to, in good health! As to what is seen in pictures, in one of my books there is an early 17th Century painting of a woman falling off horseback. She is geared up with long stockings held up with a tied garter, but her muff is clearly seen without any drawers of any kind over them. I've actually found very few pictures of men *without* some sort of brief/drawers, the picture of the people warming their cockles by the fire being the only one know of. Because of the class I teach of pre 1650 underwear (men's and women's) I'm constantly on the outlook for pictures of what goes under the clothes. I was greatly amused when I found a painting of Christ carrying the cross, with portions of his male genitalia falling out of his drawers. It reminded me of an event I went to about 15 years ago where there was a man dressed as Ghandi. He was drooping out of the drapings. I very quietly informed him that he was exposed and needed to go put himself back into his wrappings. He indignantly argued with me that he was not exposed and he would know it if he would. I was very amused when he later came back to me and apologized for not taking my word for it (since I was only trying to do him a favor, not tell him he didn't know how to costume.) Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! the mulders [33,142]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: H-COST: Feather question From: The Mulders Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 00:05:58 -0500 -Poster: The Mulders Dodo's were used for feathers as well as ostriches. The feathers were listed in trade records. Africa was busy place. My two cents worth. The Purple Elephant wrote: > -Poster: The Purple Elephant > > On Fri, 4 Jun 1999 Gwnvr@aol.com wrote: > > > > > -Poster: Gwnvr@aol.com > > > > I see lots of ostrich plumes on hats & fans of the rennaisance era at > > fairs,etc. Is this accurate? Do ostriches live in other countries besides > > Australia? Was Australia even discovered during this time? I hope I'm not > > asking a dumb questions but I've got to know! > > > Um, ostriches live in Africa...emus live in Australia...:-) > Whether Renaisannce persons actually used ostrich feathers, I cannot say. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, > Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" > and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson > friendly substance. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > cynthia j ley [47,143]CSuX:body hair Subject: Re: H-COST: body hair From: cynthia j ley Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 03:08:15 EDT -Poster: cynthia j ley On Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:57:53 +0200 Andrea Clef writes: > >-Poster: Andrea Clef > >In several books about fashion in the Middle Ages I have read that >noble women also shaved off all their body hair when it became popular >to shave the forehead. But I don`t know where people deduct this assumption from and I can`t imagine how that could ever be proved. One of the theories I recall hearing was that Plague survivors lost their hair, and so when nobility began to show a very high forehead with the hair plucked back, of course it was fashionable for others to follow suit. Personally, I don't buy into this theory of the Plague causing a fashion craze, but if you look at pictures from the medieval and Renaissance periods you will see that a high brow remained fashionable. >I do believe though that this shaving came into fashion in newer times when the skirts became shorter and after the invention of nylon stockings because one sees the leg hair even more when these are worn. And it's uncomfortable. >And it`s a cultural beauty ideal as well, Islamic women are said to shave all their >body hair although most of them wear long skirts. One of the theories on that is that the men of their culture prefer a pre-pubescent look in women. Another thing is that the ancient Egyptians apparently removed all bodily hair because they were at heart a clean people. Hair retains odors. In truth, who knows? Arlys You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] the purple elephant [30,144]CSuX:body hair Subject: Re: H-COST: body hair From: The Purple Elephant Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 17:53:23 +0930 (CST) -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, cynthia j ley wrote: > > One of the theories I recall hearing was that Plague survivors lost their > hair, and so when nobility began to show a very high forehead with the > hair plucked back, of course it was fashionable for others to follow > suit. > > Personally, I don't buy into this theory of the Plague causing a fashion > craze, but if you look at pictures from the medieval and Renaissance > periods you will see that a high brow remained fashionable. Hmmm...the really high brow, and shaved look didn't come in until quite a bit after the 'Black Death'. I realise that there were other periods of plague, but if the biggy didn't inspire this, then why a smaller one? I do recall reading somewhere that the 'I have no hair' look that went with hennins came about because of a bald queen, but I don't know that I'd give that much credence either.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ dietmar [38,145]CSuX:feather question Subject: H-COST: Re: Feather question From: Dietmar Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 01:23:33 +0000 -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, Gwnvr@aol.com asked: >> I see lots of ostrich plumes on hats & fans of the rennaisance >> era at fairs,etc. Is this accurate? Do ostriches live in other >> countries besides Australia? Was Australia even discovered during >> this time? I hope I'm not asking a dumb questions but I've got >> to know! It's been pointed out that ostriches are native to Africa. They are now farmed in many countries on most continents. There are large farms in the U.S. as well. Was Australia discovered? Sure. By Europeans? No. > Um, ostriches live in Africa...emus live in Australia...:-) > Whether Renaisannce persons actually used ostrich feathers, I > cannot say. Ostrich feathers were used as a heraldic charge by the English royal family from at least the middle of the 14th century. Edward the Black Prince had a badge of three ostrich plumes on his "shield for peace". I don't doubt that you would see them used as crests in the early rolls of arms such as the Manesse codex and Zurich roll. There are far too many examples of ostrich feathers worn in hats from German artists of the renaissance for it to be strictly an artistic convention. Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." marquise_de_pompadour@gmx.net[21,146]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: Re: H-COST: Feather question From: marquise_de_pompadour@gmx.net Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 10:56:03 +0200 (MEST) -Poster: marquise_de_pompadour@gmx.net > > > Um, ostriches live in Africa...emus live in Australia...:-) > Whether Renaisannce persons actually used ostrich feathers, I cannot say. well obviously they did have them, otherwise the painters wouldn't have known what the feathers looked like. there have been contacts with africa since antiquity, ships sailed round the cape of hope... why shouldn't they have brought ostrich feathers to europe? salut, pompadour --- Sent through Global Message Exchange - http://www.gmx.net aliaclaire@aol.com[17,147]CSuX:body hair Subject: Re: H-COST: body hair From: AliaClaire@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 06:56:17 EDT -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com In a message dated 6/3/99 4:46:40 PM EST, uboru@erols.com writes: << Not too sure about the Islamic women >> In the book _Princess_, by Jean Sasson, she speaks of the ritualistic removal of hair before a girl's wedding with a mixture of sugar water. And this involved _all_ hair besides eyebrows and head hair! I believe it also mentioned that according to Islam, women are supposed to remove their hair once every 40 days, but that's fuzzy...I'll try to find the book again if anyone's interested. -Alison Stacy AliaClaire@aol.com kate m bunting [14,148]CSuX:body hair Subject: H-COST: Body hair From: "KATE M BUNTING" Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 13:46:44 +0100 -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" I can't resist quoting Robert Herrick - "Fain would I kiss my Julia's dainty leg Which is as white and hairless as an egg." Did 17th century ladies de-hair their legs, or was Julia just lucky enough to be like that naturally, I wonder? Kate Bunting King's Lifeguard of Foote, Sealed Knot barbara maren winkler [52,149]CSuX:thigh-chafing, climate and culture (was: what s underneath) Subject: H-COST: Re: thigh-chafing, climate and culture (was: What's Underneath) From: Barbara Maren Winkler Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 15:15:51 +0200 -Poster: Barbara Maren Winkler >- -Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com > >Just adding my two bits, based on observations and common sense. >Thought just occurred while reading the posts--have we heard any from our >British or other European friends on this subject? Some of the chafing >problems have to do with climate--and level of activity and fabric. ... I live in Berlin, Germany, and the year-round average temperature is 9°C (50F). We get on average 10 days per year with 30°C or above (85F or above). That's "hot" to us. In Southern Germany, there are slightly more. Humidity when it occurs inevitably announces a thunderstorm and is gone afterwards. The meditarranean (Italy, Spain, Greece) gets as hot as the USA, but maybe drier. The climate may have been slightly different in different periods of recorded history, but not much. But Europe in the Middle Ages is a little bit of an exception with regard to climate, anyhow. Most of the last 100,000 years humanity has been around most of us have lived in tropical or subtropical areas where it's hot and humid. Of 500,000 Indian women, about 300,000 wear a sari everyday in tropic climate with at most briefs underneath. Do they chafe? Don't think so. Im Malaysia it is tropically hot and humid, but Malaian women wear the Baju Kurung or Sarong and T-shirt, which comprises a narrow skirt, no long-legged undergarment. Even hose/pants/trousers (for men, in some places also for women) are an invention of the past few 1000 years and had made it into Northern Europe ONLY by the middle ages. Roman soldiers normally didn't wear "pants". "Pants" were invented for riding, not against chafing. American Indian female clothing -- for the Plains Indians, as I recall -- comprises leggings which reach up only to the knee. No fabric there to separate the thighs. ... any more examples, anyone? Barbara Maren -- Barbara Maren Winkler barbara@math.tu-berlin.de hope greenberg [23,150]CSuX:baby & children s clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Baby & Children's Clothing From: Hope Greenberg Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 09:40:25 -0500 -Poster: Hope Greenberg In 1857, Godey's Lady's Book ran a series of articles titled "How to Cut and Contrive Children's Clothing." It covered such topics as: - why children should be well dressed - fancy stitches for trimming infants' dresses - baby's wardrobe - quantity of clothes - descriptions of various garments like the monthly gown, flannel, first petticoat, binder, shirt, drawers, etc. I haven't reached 1857 in the new Godey site, so I've scanned and placed the pages at the old site. You can find them at: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/godey/fashion/1857child.html Enjoy! - Hope ---------- hope.greenberg@uvm.edu, U of Vermont, http://www.uvm.edu/~hag cdepner26@webtv.net (harold hensley)[11,151]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: H-COST: Feather question From: CDepner26@webtv.net (Harold Hensley) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 10:00:47 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: CDepner26@webtv.net (Harold Hensley) Accessories of Dress by Katherine Morris Lester and Bess Viola Oerke (c. 1940) has a chapter that coveres the history of the ostrich plume. I can't remember if it states the origins of the plumes but it is an excellent source if you can find it though ILL. C. Depner j,k,s&a baird [10,152]CSuX:ostrich plumes Subject: H-COST: ostrich plumes From: "J,K,S&A Baird" Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 09:14:29 -0500 -Poster: "J,K,S&A Baird" >and yes, Africa was discovered by then.< I would think so, considering that the human race originated there... Kim henk t jong [40,153]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Feather question From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 16:48:17 +0200 -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi y'all, Dietmar wrote: > Ostrich feathers were used as a heraldic charge by the English royal family > from at least the middle of the 14th century. Edward the Black Prince had a > badge of three ostrich plumes on his "shield for peace". First mention is 1370 when queen Philippa (who was of Hainault, now southern Belgium) ordered plate with ostrich feathers engraved in them. English heraldists suspect a Hainault origin of the feathers. The Black Prince wasn't the only one using them at least one of his brothers did too (John of Ghent). They were used by Henry Bolingbroke, John's son, later Henry IV, and king Richard II as well as the Beaufort family who descended from John of Ghent via bastardy. In the BP's shield the feathers were 'charges', outside of it they are 'badges'. I don't doubt that > you would see them used as crests in the early rolls of arms such as the > Manesse codex and Zurich roll. Not in the Manesse codex (1305-20). Peacock feathers, lots of them, some cock feathers and bird's wings, yes, but no ostrich feathers. As far as I have pictures of the Zuricher wappenrolle (1335-45) there are no ostrich feathers there as well. Gelre's Armorial (ca 1370-1400) has 3 crests with ostrich feathers, one of which I suspect to be a later addition. Ostrich feather crests really start in the middle of the 15th c and become in their own in the late 16th to 19th c. Henk margo anderson [9,154]CSuX:baby & children s clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Baby & Children's Clothing From: Margo Anderson Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:56:18 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson The Boys's Historical Clothing Page at http://members.tripod.com/~histclo/index.html is useful. Margo margo anderson [37,155]CSuX:fo, sort of: costume class Subject: H-COST: H-Cost: FO, sort of: Costume Class From: Margo Anderson Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:35:43 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson I taught the last of my four classes on Gold Rush Costume on Wednesday night. Thanks to everyone on this list who assured me I could do it, and then answered innumerable questions to make sure of it. The class was a great success. Due to a limited amount of advertising time, I only had four students, which was for the best for my first teaching experience. I had one lady who's been doing "westernoid" skits and such with a local group and has been feeling uneasy about the costumes, one skilled sewer who makes costumes for a melodrama group, one who's been studying historic costume all on her own for some years, and one woman who doesn't know a thing, can't sew a stitch, and is filled with enthusiasm. I had some trouble fitting everything into the time allotted. I also managed to forget to mention some things, most notably covering the 1850's extensively without ever mentioning mourning! (I promised to send them all notes on the subject) I also learned that I need more displays and samples, especially swatches of fabric. My students enjoyed the class so much that they didn't want it to stop, in fact, two of them are also taking the Renaissance class I'm teaching this month, and all four of them have decided to start a local Costumer's guild! This was exactly what I was hoping the classes would start. I'm not in this for the money, (after I factor in expenses and research and preparation time, I made 35 cents an hour) but to find people with the same interests as mine. If anyone out there is considering teaching, I urge you to try it. Like costuming in general, the money's terrible, but the self satisfaction is great! Margo Anderson "One Tough Costumer" lynn downward [47,156]CSuX:fo, sort of: costume class Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Cost: FO, sort of: Costume Class From: Lynn Downward Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:51:54 -0800 -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >I taught the last of my four classes on Gold Rush Costume on Wednesday >night. Thanks to everyone on this list who assured me I could do it, and >then answered innumerable questions to make sure of it. > >The class was a great success. Due to a limited amount of advertising time, >I only had four students, which was for the best for my first teaching >experience. I had one lady who's been doing "westernoid" skits and such >with a local group and has been feeling uneasy about the costumes, one >skilled sewer who makes costumes for a melodrama group, one who's been >studying historic costume all on her own for some years, and one woman who >doesn't know a thing, can't sew a stitch, and is filled with enthusiasm. > >I had some trouble fitting everything into the time allotted. I also >managed to forget to mention some things, most notably covering the 1850's >extensively without ever mentioning mourning! (I promised to send them all >notes on the subject) I also learned that I need more displays and samples, >especially swatches of fabric. > >My students enjoyed the class so much that they didn't want it to stop, in >fact, two of them are also taking the Renaissance class I'm teaching this >month, and all four of them have decided to start a local Costumer's guild! > >This was exactly what I was hoping the classes would start. I'm not in this >for the money, (after I factor in expenses and research and preparation >time, I made 35 cents an hour) but to find people with the same interests >as mine. > >If anyone out there is considering teaching, I urge you to try it. Like >costuming in general, the money's terrible, but the self satisfaction is >great! > >Margo Anderson >"One Tough Costumer" > Dear Margo, What a great experience! Congratulations on achieving your goals - not always something that comes easily. Thanks for letting us all know. LynnD on an otherwise dreary day hope h. dunlap [18,157]CSuX:feather question Subject: H-COST: Feather Question From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 10:20:00 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Ostritch feathers were used to decorate Turks turbans (post 1453, the Conquest) and also in French Cavaliers' hats (1580-1660). I believe they were used since antiquity by the Persians and Egyptians. They decorated noble horses livery in Europe. I'd bet money that Italian Renaissance men and women wore them to decorate their hats and hair. I read one account of a girlandia for a woman's head in Renaissance Italy made of peacock feathers. Sorry I have no specific references for the use of ostrich feathers in the Renaissance at hand, but I'm sure they are out there. Hope H. Dunlap scott hulett [30,158]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: H-COST: Feather Question From: Scott Hulett Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 13:53:52 -0700 -Poster: Scott Hulett Hi, Hope and group I was just looking in QEWU and she clearly shows on page 324 illus. 419 a"White ostrich feather fan, the gold handle set with a ruby, pearls and diamonds" 1590-92 in the Toledo Museum of Art, Ohio. I don't know if this address the primary question, sorry, I missed that one. But that does make it seem like ostrich was used in the Renaissance. cheers, jd "Hope H. Dunlap" wrote: > -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > > Ostritch feathers were used to decorate Turks turbans (post > 1453, the Conquest) and also in French Cavaliers' hats > (1580-1660). I believe they were used since antiquity by > the Persians and Egyptians. They decorated noble horses > livery in Europe. I'd bet money that Italian Renaissance > men and women wore them to decorate their hats and hair. I > read one account of a girlandia for a woman's head in > Renaissance Italy made of peacock feathers. Sorry I have > no specific references for the use of ostrich feathers in > the Renaissance at hand, but I'm sure they are out there. > > Hope H. Dunlap > robin netherton [34,159]CSuX:body hair Subject: Re: H-COST: body hair From: Robin Netherton Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 18:46:36 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: Robin Netherton On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, cynthia j ley wrote: > One of the theories I recall hearing was that Plague survivors lost their > hair, and so when nobility began to show a very high forehead with the > hair plucked back, of course it was fashionable for others to follow > suit. I seriously doubt that could be the case, for many reasons. I've done a great deal of research into the medical aspects of plague, and I've never seen a reference to hair loss as an effect, either in current medical literature or in literature of the period. If it did occur at all, it evidently wasn't common enough to be identified with plague specifically in the writings. (Although shearing of the head has, in some times and places, been the custom in cases of serious illness -- presumably to simplify hygiene for the bedridden.) Even if hair loss did occur as a result of plague, it would have affected the non-noble as well as the noble, and men as well as women, which is not indicated in the visual sources, where high foreheads seem specific to noble women. As a more theoretical argument against this idea, I personally doubt that anything that was seen as a sign of disease would be taken as a feature of female beauty and high class -- which the high forehead certainly was. (I don't see pock-marks thus idealized, for instance.) --Robin (my day job is as a medical writer/editor, and I've written two encyclopedia articles on plague) hope h. dunlap [60,160]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: H-COST: Feather Question From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 19:37:25 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" 1590-92 is too late to be characterized as Renaissance, IMO, even in Northern Europe. Does anyone know of ostrich feathers in Europe from 1325-1550? 1325 would be early Renaissance in Italy, and it flourished in Northern Europe later. Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Scott Hulett -Poster: Scott Hulett Hi, Hope and group I was just looking in QEWU and she clearly shows on page 324 illus. 419 a"White ostrich feather fan, the gold handle set with a ruby, pearls and diamonds" 1590-92 in the Toledo Museum of Art, Ohio. I don't know if this address the primary question, sorry, I missed that one. But that does make it seem like ostrich was used in the Renaissance. cheers, jd "Hope H. Dunlap" wrote: > -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > > Ostritch feathers were used to decorate Turks turbans (post > 1453, the Conquest) and also in French Cavaliers' hats > (1580-1660). I believe they were used since antiquity by > the Persians and Egyptians. They decorated noble horses > livery in Europe. I'd bet money that Italian Renaissance > men and women wore them to decorate their hats and hair. I > read one account of a girlandia for a woman's head in > Renaissance Italy made of peacock feathers. Sorry I have > no specific references for the use of ostrich feathers in > the Renaissance at hand, but I'm sure they are out there. > > Hope H. Dunlap > > _____ majordomo@indra.com _____ majordomo@indra.com kathryn l. herb [51,161]CSuX:body hair Subject: Re: H-COST: Body Hair From: "Kathryn L. Herb" Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 19:45:34 EDT -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >Getting back to historical aspects, I've heard that the whole "merkin" >story >is a hoax. Anyone have input on that? > >Margo Margo, Some friends and I had a discussion about this a while back. I dug out the one remaining post I have on it which includes the following from the Oxford English Dictionary: "merkin ('m3:rkin). Also 7 mirkin. 1 a The female pudendum [which a more recent dictionary tells me comes from a root meaning "a thing to be ashamed of"] obs. 1535 LYNDESAY Satyre 1920 Mawkine. 1656 FLECTHER Martial 95 Why dost thou reach thy Merkin now half dust? Why dost provoke the ashes of thy lust? 1671 SKINNER Etymol. Ling. Angl., Merkin, Pubes mulieris. 1714 A. SMITH Lives Highwaymen II. 151 This put a strange Whim in his Head; which was, to get the hairy circle of her Merkin... This he dry'd well, and comb'd out, and then return'd to the Cardinall, telling him, he had brought St. Peter's Beard." Sounds rather like it could mean both the real and the artificial thing. I've posted her for the rest of the story. Reportedly a French company still makes them. (The Hair Club for Women?) The researcher put forth a statement that they were in use from at least Elizabethan times through the 1700's, but indicates that it was almost certainly the female nobles or "the bed-hopping courtly set from 1400? - 1790. Unfortunately, any record I had of the documentation got separated from what I've posted here. It may take a little while to get the full information, but I'll forward it on to you when I get it. Apparently they were pasted on the shaved skin. Apologies for the vagueness of this reply. Will attempt to clarify ASAP. Kay kayherb@juno.com You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] penny ladnier [45,162]CSuX:bill blass sketchbook Subject: H-COST: BILL BLASS SKETCHBOOK From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 19:59:10 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" I am forwarding this message to you all. I think some of you may be interested in this letter that was sent to me. If you are interested please contact Ellen Trayor ellen@digisys.net -----Original Message----- From: ELLEN TRAYLOR <> >Hello! I am writing to you in the hopes that you might give me some >guidance in the matter of finding a suitable market for a collection I >have acquired. > >I am a rare book dealer who has recently acquired a collection of books >and sketches once belonging to the world-renowned designer, Bill Blass. >This collection, which came to me via a member of the designer's family, >includes many books from his personal library, bearing his bookplate, >his signature, books signed to him by various authors, personal mementos >from Blass's shows, etc. > >The most interesting (and, I feel most valuable) item in the collection >is an original sketchbook, with 58 pages of multiple sketches drawn by >Blass, and dated "1944/Luxembourg." The sketches, done in pencil and >black ink, are absolutely intricate and fabulous! Samples of the >sketches may be seen at > and > > >The collection also includes drawings from his high school days, and >other intriguing and enlightening items that give insight into the >character and development of a great talent. > >I am attempting to market this collection, in whole or in part. Due to >its unique and specialized nature, I know that I must go beyond normal >outlets for the marketing. If you know of any collector or source who >might be interested, would you please let me know. > >Thank you very much, Ellen Traylor PORT HOLE BOOKS > Website: > susan carroll-clark [39,163]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: H-COST: Feather Question From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 20:06:09 -0400 -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! >1590-92 is too late to be characterized as Renaissance, IMO, >even in Northern Europe. Does anyone know of ostrich >feathers in Europe from 1325-1550? 1325 would be early >Renaissance in Italy, and it flourished in Northern Europe >later. Actually, from an historical standpoint, 1325 isn't considered Renaissance in Italy. The "transitional figure" who is considered to be influential in promoting humanism, which was what fuelled the Renaissance, was Petrarch (1304-74). He's really not well-known until the 1340s. Most historians place the beginnings of the Italian Renaissance between 1350-1375. And I also disagree that the 1590s aren't Renaissance for Northern Europe, especially for England. Again, Renaissance humanism (e.g. critical examination of sources, devotion to classical ideals in literature and art, etc.) did not fully establish itself in England until the early 1500s. Most historians consider the English Renaissance to coincide with the Tudors, and some even throw in the Stuarts for good measure. If we really want to be nitpicky, "Renaissance" isn't a particularly good term, since it was primarily an artistic and intellectual movement, with some political overtones. In purely social terms, the Reformation and Counter-Reformation had a much more far-reaching effect. We tend to call clothes which were worn during the Renaissance "Renaissance" clothing, even though they were certainly not a product of the "Renaissance" movement in and of themselves (had they been, you might have expected clothing to take on the lines shown in classical statuary--after all, art and architecture were certainly greatly influenced by Roman and Greek models....) Susan Carroll-Clark ron carnegie [45,164]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: Re: H-COST: Feather question From: Ron Carnegie Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 20:51:17 -0400 -Poster: Ron Carnegie At 10:56 AM 6/4/99 +0200, you wrote: > >-Poster: marquise_de_pompadour@gmx.net > > >> > >> Um, ostriches live in Africa...emus live in Australia...:-) >> Whether Renaisannce persons actually used ostrich feathers, I cannot >say. > >well obviously they did have them, otherwise the painters wouldn't have >known what the feathers looked like. there have been contacts with africa >since antiquity, ships sailed round the cape of hope... why shouldn't they have >brought ostrich feathers to europe? > >salut, >pompadour > > >--- >Sent through Global Message Exchange - http://www.gmx.net There has been trade with (or through) Africa for thousands of years. One of the worlds richest trade centers was in Africa (Timbuktu). There are even Ethiopian Christians who where envolved in the Crusades (Coptic). A good deal of grain and gold used in Europe came from Africa, why not feathers? Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* nancy gilly / philippa grey [8,165]CSuX:digest lost #351 Subject: Re: H-COST: digest lost #351 From: Nancy Gilly / Philippa Grey Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 21:19:29 -0400 -Poster: Nancy Gilly / Philippa Grey A copy has been forwarded (hopefully not one of too many). Philippa hope h. dunlap [87,166]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: H-COST: Feather Question From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 21:16:42 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" I won't quibble on starting date. But I never thought it made any sense to talk about the Renaissance in England. For instance, Shakespeare was such a unique genius, it's hard for me to consider seriously that he represented any kind of greater wave. To me the term "Age of Exploration" or "Elizabethan" is more to the point. OK to "Reformation/Counter-Reformation" too. To me, the "Renaissance" was Italian. The "Northern Renaissance" was a much less intense phenomena. By the time the Renaissance "reached" England, I'd argue it wasn't still the Renaissance, but something quite different. No historian here, just my 2 cents. Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Susan Carroll-Clark -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! >1590-92 is too late to be characterized as Renaissance, IMO, >even in Northern Europe. Does anyone know of ostrich >feathers in Europe from 1325-1550? 1325 would be early >Renaissance in Italy, and it flourished in Northern Europe >later. Actually, from an historical standpoint, 1325 isn't considered Renaissance in Italy. The "transitional figure" who is considered to be influential in promoting humanism, which was what fuelled the Renaissance, was Petrarch (1304-74). He's really not well-known until the 1340s. Most historians place the beginnings of the Italian Renaissance between 1350-1375. And I also disagree that the 1590s aren't Renaissance for Northern Europe, especially for England. Again, Renaissance humanism (e.g. critical examination of sources, devotion to classical ideals in literature and art, etc.) did not fully establish itself in England until the early 1500s. Most historians consider the English Renaissance to coincide with the Tudors, and some even throw in the Stuarts for good measure. If we really want to be nitpicky, "Renaissance" isn't a particularly good term, since it was primarily an artistic and intellectual movement, with some political overtones. In purely social terms, the Reformation and Counter-Reformation had a much more far-reaching effect. We tend to call clothes which were worn during the Renaissance "Renaissance" clothing, even though they were certainly not a product of the "Renaissance" movement in and of themselves (had they been, you might have expected clothing to take on the lines shown in classical statuary--after all, art and architecture were certainly greatly influenced by Roman and Greek models....) Susan Carroll-Clark _____ majordomo@indra.com penny ladnier [16,167]CSuX:jumpers, models Subject: H-COST: Jumpers, models From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 00:10:52 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" I am working with a 1908 publication and seeing references to jumpers. Were jumper style dresses used in other time periods prior to Edwardian? Were the dresses called jumpers in prior fashion eras? Another note, a few months back, we were discussing when "models" began to be called models. This 1908 publication refers to all their fashion illustrations as models. I did not see this word used when I was working in the 1890s publications. Later...Penny http://www.costumegallery.com ron carnegie [45,168]CSuX:feather question Subject: RE: H-COST: Feather Question From: Ron Carnegie Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 00:37:18 -0400 -Poster: Ron Carnegie At 09:16 PM 6/4/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > >I won't quibble on starting date. But I never thought it >made any sense to talk about the Renaissance in England. >For instance, Shakespeare was such a unique genius, it's >hard for me to consider seriously that he represented any >kind of greater wave. To me the term "Age of Exploration" >or "Elizabethan" is more to the point. OK to >"Reformation/Counter-Reformation" too. To me, the >"Renaissance" was Italian. The "Northern Renaissance" was a >much less intense phenomena. By the time the Renaissance >"reached" England, I'd argue it wasn't still the >Renaissance, but something quite different. No historian >here, just my 2 cents. > >Hope H. Dunlap > > Shakespeare was a genius, but he was not the only one produced by the Elizabethan age (just one of the most famous). I would argue that there was a "Renaissance" going on in England in the 16th Century, though I agree that the term is misleading, and even more so when the word English is left of. I always thought it unfortunate that these faires, now so popular across America were coined (Rennaisance Faires or festivals). Kind of misleading. Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* carol j. bell cannon [17,169]CSuX:new film rumors... can anyone confirm/deny/otherwise lend Subject: H-COST: New Film Rumors... can anyone confirm/deny/otherwise lend From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 22:45:01 -0700 -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" In a message dated 6/3/99 12:45:13 PM, kjalar@pacbell.net writes: > The open issue covers Brittania - The Arthurian Society, and it's > participation in a Dark Age Major Movie being filmed now called > Gladiator starring Oliver Reed, Derek Jacobi, Richard Harris > and David Hemmings by the same guy who did the Duellists and > Bladerunner. To which Cynan wrote: Anyone know more about this movie, like a screenwriter, a more detailed plot, which studio is distributing it, or projected release date? I haven't heard anything about this. Sir Oliver Reed, I had thought to be deceased, but possibly he began the project and will therefore be in the final release... . Thank you for whatever info. you may be able to provide. This is all I have seen. Carol dietmar [59,170]CSuX:feather question Subject: H-COST: Re: Feather Question From: Dietmar Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 01:33:34 +0000 -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, Hope wrote: > 1590-92 is too late to be characterized as Renaissance, IMO, > even in Northern Europe. Does anyone know of ostrich feathers > in Europe from 1325-1550? 1325 would be early Renaissance > in Italy, and it flourished in Northern Europe later. Well, my personal library is somewhat limited and biased towards German art and costume, but here's what I've found... The earliest I've found an ostrich plume worn on a person was in the "Très Riches Heures" of Jean, Duc de Berry. In the month of April, there is a young lady wearing two ostrich plumes in her hat. This dates from 1413-16. There are ostrich plumes shown decorating men's hats in the tapestry of "The Unicorn Hunt" from the late fifteenth century. Some of the earliest woodcuts from Albrecht Dürer are the "Albertina Passion" from 1495-96. Two of the four prints, "Christ bearing the cross" and "Christ on the cross", show landsknechts wearing ostrich feathers in their hats. There are numerous other examples including book illustrations from 1492-3, but too many to mention here. One of the earliest paintings attributed to Lucas Cranach is "The Martyrdom of St. Catherine" dated to 1505. It clearly shows ostrich feathers in the hat of a landsknecht. There are numerous others including "The Judgment of Paris" (1512-4) and the portrait of Duchess Catherine of Saxony, dated 1514. "The Triumph of Maximilian I" was a series of woodcuts produced by Hans Burgkmair (among others) between 1512-19 for a processional march. Of the 137 plates, more than half show ostrich feathers being worn. A gorgeous work by Hans Holbein the elder is "the Isenheim Altarpiece". Dated to 1516, it shows a landsknecht wearing an ostrich feather in his hat. Hans Holbein the younger has a few works showing ostrich feathers, including his 1535 portrait of Simon George, 1536 portrait of Henry VIII, 1539 painting of Edward, Prince of Wales, 1541 pen and ink drawing of Prince Edward with a monkey, and his 1941 vellum of the child Charles Brandon. The portrait of Francis I attributed to François Clouet appears to have an ostrich plume in his hat as well. I've shown examples from England and France, and I could go on all day with examples from Germany. Albrecht Altdorfer, Jost Amman, Burgkmair, Cranach, and Dürer could each supply dozens of examples. Dietmar  "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." blackcat =^..^= [10,171]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: H-COST: Feather Question From: "BlackCat =^..^=" Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 01:45:14 -0700 -Poster: "BlackCat =^..^=" The way that I've always thought of the Renaissance: You drop a pebble in Italy, 1453 or so. By the early part of the sixteenth century, the ripple passes through Germany and France. It takes the ripple until the latter part of the sixteenth century to reach England, and by that point the ripple is much less intense. dietmar [55,172]CSuX:feather question Subject: H-COST: Re: Feather Question From: Dietmar Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 02:23:32 +0000 -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, Hope wrote: > I won't quibble on starting date. But I never thought it made > any sense to talk about the Renaissance in England. For instance, > Shakespeare was such a unique genius, it's hard for me to consider > seriously that he represented any kind of greater wave. To me > the term "Age of Exploration" or "Elizabethan" is more to the > point. OK to "Reformation/Counter-Reformation" too. To me, > the "Renaissance" was Italian. The "Northern Renaissance" was > a much less intense phenomena. By the time the Renaissance > "reached" England, I'd argue it wasn't still the Renaissance, > but something quite different. If you try to see the renaissance as universal entity across Europe, there will never be a satisfactory time/place definition. The renaissance arrived in different places at different times and in different ways. I think the fact that by the time the renaissance reached England it was quite different is rather the point. In Italy it was artistic as well as intellectual. In Germany, it was more of a religious renaissance. In England it was more political and religious. Shakespeare was not alone, just the best known. What about Christopher Marlowe, John Donne, Ben Johnson and Robert Herrick? The seeds of the renaissance were sewn in the late 13th century as the works of Greek and Roman intellectuals began to be translated. The system of universities spread these "new" ideas as the lecturers traveled from place to place. One of the reasons that Italy is seen as the only place where the renaissance occurred is political bias. In the U.S. (and England I suspect) history is taught in an ethnocentric way. If it didn't happen to our immediate ancestors or effect "our continent" it's largely ignored. Because it was so stunning, the renaissance in Italy is the exception to this. The fact that many of Martin Luther's ideas were proposed by Jan Hus in Bohemia 100 years earlier is rarely taught. The renaissance was most startling in Italy, so it gets all the press. Shakespeare has a large body of popular works, so he is the best known. I get the feeling this is becoming incoherent as I get more tired. I'll go to bed now. :-) Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." annbwass@aol.com[15,173]CSuX:jumpers, models Subject: Re: H-COST: Jumpers, models From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 07:23:45 EDT -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com In a message dated 6/5/1999 12:12:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, penny.creative.outlets@erols.com writes: > I am working with a 1908 publication and seeing references to jumpers. Were > jumper style dresses used in other time periods prior to Edwardian? Were > the dresses called jumpers in prior fashion eras? > Might this be a reference to some sort of sweater? Help me out, British members. isn't a "jumper" like a pullover sweater? Ann Wass susan carroll-clark [23,174]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: H-COST: Feather Question From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 09:14:24 -0400 -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! To be honest, the term "Renaissance" as a whole bugs me a bit, because it's commonly used as a counterweight to "medieval", as if poof! one day everyone woke up and it was the Renaissance and the "dark ages" were over. I tend to use it in the very strict sense as "the period in which the intellectual and artistic movement known as humanism was in vogue." And Shakespeare's England would qualify for sure. Ron's right that Shakespeare was not a unique figure--he's just the best known. But when talking about clothes in England, or really anywhere outside of Italy, I don't use the term "Renaissance" anyway--I use "Tudor" or "Elizabethan" for England, and just specify the period for other places (e.g. "late 16th century French.") Even "Italian Ren" is a bit over-used, since it can cover close to two centuries and all of Italy, when there were stylistic changes in the period, as well as regional variations. Susan j,k,s&a baird [26,175]CSuX:jumpers, models Subject: Re: H-COST: Jumpers, models From: "J,K,S&A Baird" Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 09:26:58 -0500 -Poster: "J,K,S&A Baird" Just guessing--were they referring to pull-over sweaters, which in England are "jumpers"? Kim At 12:10 AM 6/5/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" > >I am working with a 1908 publication and seeing references to jumpers. Were >jumper style dresses used in other time periods prior to Edwardian? Were >the dresses called jumpers in prior fashion eras? > >Another note, a few months back, we were discussing when "models" began to >be called models. This 1908 publication refers to all their fashion >illustrations as models. I did not see this word used when I was working in >the 1890s publications. > >Later...Penny >http://www.costumegallery.com > > hope h. dunlap [46,176]CSuX:jumpers, models Subject: H-COST: Jumpers, models From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 10:49:48 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Fran Grimble's The Edwardian Modiste shows a jumper waist, a jumper suit, and a jumper blouse for this period, but not a full-length jumper in the sense that Americans use the word today. ( I believe the English call it a pinafore.) In each case, the jumper seems to be a top with no sleeves or very short kimono sleeves which was worn over a blouse (waist) during this period. The skirt appears to be separate, but I can't swear to it. It did frequenlty match the fabric of the jumper top. Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Penny Ladnier -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" I am working with a 1908 publication and seeing references to jumpers. Were jumper style dresses used in other time periods prior to Edwardian? Were the dresses called jumpers in prior fashion eras? Another note, a few months back, we were discussing when "models" began to be called models. This 1908 publication refers to all their fashion illustrations as models. I did not see this word used when I was working in the 1890s publications. Later...Penny http://www.costumegallery.com _____ majordomo@indra.com hope h. dunlap [60,177]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: H-COST: Feather Question From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 10:38:20 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Yes to everyone's points here. It does seem odd to take a word which is applicable to 1350 Italy and apply it to 1550-1600 England. Certainly England flowered in Elizabethan times, but to characterize it as an extension of the Renaissance, while not entirely off base, does really miss the kernel of it, IMO. Renaissance Faire has a certain ring to it in a marketing sense, and applies to Europe in general, while Elizabethan would be too delimiting for SCA and faire purposes. Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Susan Carroll-Clark -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! To be honest, the term "Renaissance" as a whole bugs me a bit, because it's commonly used as a counterweight to "medieval", as if poof! one day everyone woke up and it was the Renaissance and the "dark ages" were over. I tend to use it in the very strict sense as "the period in which the intellectual and artistic movement known as humanism was in vogue." And Shakespeare's England would qualify for sure. Ron's right that Shakespeare was not a unique figure--he's just the best known. But when talking about clothes in England, or really anywhere outside of Italy, I don't use the term "Renaissance" anyway--I use "Tudor" or "Elizabethan" for England, and just specify the period for other places (e.g. "late 16th century French.") Even "Italian Ren" is a bit over-used, since it can cover close to two centuries and all of Italy, when there were stylistic changes in the period, as well as regional variations. Susan _____ majordomo@indra.com kathryn l. herb [88,178]CSuX:merkins Subject: H-COST: Merkins From: "Kathryn L. Herb" Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 11:20:30 EDT -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" Well, my friend came through faster than I expected. The information came to her in March 1997, and she's thinking that it might have come from this list. I'da checked the archives but I don't have web access here at home. Anyway, here's what she gave me. Maybe someone will recognize it and be able to fill in the rather large gaps in documentation? I'm sure it's one of those things that isn't often recorded or even spoken of in polite circles. I added some *** editing for prudity ... prudeness? ... for the sake of the kiddies. Forwarded message: Then, missing the hair they had small fur pieces made up called "murkins" which they pasted on. Then I was told that in the French court they also missed the fleas so they had small fleas made of jewels and put them on the merkins! Merkins were pubic wigs for females. I'd like to know what social occasions required them. Reportedly, a company in France still makes merkins. They were in use from at least Elizabethan times throught the 1700's. A lot on this topic has been lost to history So - I looked up in the Oxford English Dictionary and here's the entry: merkin ('m3:rkIn). Also 7 mirkin. [app. a variant of MALKIN; but it is doubtful whether the various applications belong to the same word.] 1 a The female pudendum. Obs. 1535 LYNDESAY Satyre 1920 Mawkine. 1656 FLETCHER Martial 95 Why dost thou reach thy Merkin now half dust? Why dost provoke the ashes of thy lust? 1671 SKINNER Etymol. Ling. Angl., Merkin, Pubes mulieris. 1714 A. SMITH Lives Highwaymen II. 151 This put a strange Whim in his Head; which was, to get the hairy circle of her Merkin... This he dry'd well, and comb'd out, and then return'd to the Cardinall, telling him, he had brought St. Peter's Beard. b (See quot. 1796.) Also, an artificial v*****. 1617 J. TAYLOR (Water-P.) Trav. Bohemia Wks. 1630 III. 94/2 A thousand hogsheads then would haunt his firkin, And Mistris Minks recover her lost mirkin. 1660 Mercurius Fumig. No. 7. 56 The last week was lost a Merkin in the Covent-Garden. A. 1680 ROCHESTER To Author Play 'Sodom' 35 Or wear some stinking Merkin for a Beard. 1796 Grose's Dict. Vulg. Tongue (ed. 3), Merkin counterfeit hair for women's privy parts.1886 R. F. BURTON tr. Arabian Nights' Entertainments X. 239 For the use of men they have the 'merkin', a heart-shaped article of thin skin stuffed with cotton and slit with an artificial v*****. 1962 E. WILSON Night Thoughts 203 Said Philip Sydney, buttoning his jerkin 'Allow me, darling: you have dropped your merkin.' 1967 G. LEGMAN Fake Revolt 31 A sort of ice-cold d****o-and-merkin combination. 1972 Variant I. VI. 54 Variant reporters interviewed a French pubic wig maker, the head of one of the world's most important firms making merkens and other 'intimate wigs'. 2 = MALKIN 3 b. 1802 JAMES Milit. Dict., Merkin, a mop to clean cannon. 1875 KNIGHT Dict. Mech. I've also seen it in American English dictionaries spelled MURKIN defined only as 1) pubic wig and 2) cannon mop. --------- End forwarded message ---------- You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] hope h. dunlap [88,179]CSuX:bill blass sketchbook Subject: H-COST: BILL BLASS SKETCHBOOK From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 11:44:52 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Try Museum at the Fashin Institute of Technology, the Museum of the City of New York, and the Costume Institute at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, all in New York City. Also, the San Francisco Museum of Art, the Los Angles (County?) Musuem of Art, Beverly Birks Couture Collection, Cleveland Museum of Art, Detroit Museum of Art, Boston Mueum of Art, Textile Museum, and any other musuem with a significant textile, costume, or fashion collection. Use www.metacrawler.com to locate them on the Web. Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Penny Ladnier -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" I am forwarding this message to you all. I think some of you may be interested in this letter that was sent to me. If you are interested please contact Ellen Trayor ellen@digisys.net -----Original Message----- From: ELLEN TRAYLOR <> >Hello! I am writing to you in the hopes that you might give me some >guidance in the matter of finding a suitable market for a collection I >have acquired. > >I am a rare book dealer who has recently acquired a collection of books >and sketches once belonging to the world-renowned designer, Bill Blass. >This collection, which came to me via a member of the designer's family, >includes many books from his personal library, bearing his bookplate, >his signature, books signed to him by various authors, personal mementos >from Blass's shows, etc. > >The most interesting (and, I feel most valuable) item in the collection >is an original sketchbook, with 58 pages of multiple sketches drawn by >Blass, and dated "1944/Luxembourg." The sketches, done in pencil and >black ink, are absolutely intricate and fabulous! Samples of the >sketches may be seen at > and > > >The collection also includes drawings from his high school days, and >other intriguing and enlightening items that give insight into the >character and development of a great talent. > >I am attempting to market this collection, in whole or in part. Due to >its unique and specialized nature, I know that I must go beyond normal >outlets for the marketing. If you know of any collector or source who >might be interested, would you please let me know. > >Thank you very much, Ellen Traylor PORT HOLE BOOKS > Website: > _____ majordomo@indra.com laurel wilson [21,180]CSuX:renaissance (was feather question) Subject: Re: H-COST: Renaissance (was Feather Question) From: Laurel Wilson Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 11:57:26 -0400 -Poster: Laurel Wilson My two cents on this as a medievalist: the whole concept of the Renaissance is in some doubt these days, it seems to me. More and more I see the biggest turning points of European history as somewhere around 1350 and somewhere around 1750. Obviously there were individual countries that had various kinds of "Golden Ages," like Italy in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries, or England in the sixteenth--small 'r' renaissances, perhaps. There were also major movements such as Humanism, the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, and so on. But the concept of the Renaissance as the beginning of the discovery of individualism, subjectivity, a new era in human thought, and so on, is really a nineteenth-century idea which is currently being superseded by other periodizations. This is particularly true if you look at the history of different subgroups: women's history, for instance, or rural history. Lauri laurel wilson [15,181]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: H-COST: Feather Question From: Laurel Wilson Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 12:00:27 -0400 -Poster: Laurel Wilson Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: > To be honest, the term "Renaissance" as a whole bugs me a bit, because it's > commonly used as a counterweight to "medieval", as if poof! one day everyone > woke up and it was the Renaissance and the "dark ages" were over. I hadn't seen this when I sent my post about the Renaissance, but I agree whole-heartedly (and don't think I said it nearly so well!).Lauri eleanor farrell [22,182]CSuX:titanic european tour Subject: H-COST: Titanic European tour From: Eleanor Farrell Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 09:06:21 -0700 -Poster: Eleanor Farrell I've received a query from someone in Ireland who wants to find out where the Titanic Tour, which is presumably in Europe for the next few years, is scheduled. Do any of our European list members have this info? I'm sure there's more than one person who'd be interested...... please reply to the list and I will pass on the info to the person who contacted me. Thanks! Eleanor Farrell ************************************************** Eleanor M. Farrell emfarrell@earthlink.net Celluloid Wrappers: Costume in the Movies http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/heat/218/ ************************************************* penny ladnier [46,183]CSuX:jumpers, models Subject: Re: H-COST: Jumpers, models From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 12:39:40 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" Jumper is a style of pullover dress. It is not a sweater. I will scan a picture and let you see it in a while. Later...Penny http://www.costumegallery.com -----Original Message----- From: J,K,S&A Baird To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Saturday, June 05, 1999 10:28 AM Subject: Re: H-COST: Jumpers, models > >-Poster: "J,K,S&A Baird" > >Just guessing--were they referring to pull-over sweaters, which in England >are "jumpers"? >Kim > > >At 12:10 AM 6/5/99 -0400, you wrote: >> >>-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" >> >>I am working with a 1908 publication and seeing references to jumpers. Were >>jumper style dresses used in other time periods prior to Edwardian? Were >>the dresses called jumpers in prior fashion eras? >> >>Another note, a few months back, we were discussing when "models" began to >>be called models. This 1908 publication refers to all their fashion >>illustrations as models. I did not see this word used when I was working in >>the 1890s publications. >> >>Later...Penny >>http://www.costumegallery.com >> >> > margo anderson [17,184]CSuX:new film rumors... can anyone Subject: Re: H-COST: New Film Rumors... can anyone From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 10:09:18 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson >> The open issue covers Brittania - The Arthurian Society, and it's >> participation in a Dark Age Major Movie being filmed now called >> Gladiator starring Oliver Reed, Derek Jacobi, Richard Harris >> and David Hemmings by the same guy who did the Duellists and >> Bladerunner. Could this be the gladiator movie for which Sandy Powell is designing the costumes? I believe it was Albertcat who mentioned it.. Margo margo anderson [25,185]CSuX:jumpers, models Subject: RE: H-COST: Jumpers, models From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 10:16:42 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson > > Fran Grimble's The Edwardian Modiste shows a jumper waist, >a jumper suit, and a jumper blouse for this period, but not >a full-length jumper in the sense that Americans use the >word today. I have a photograph of my great-grandmother taken around 1912, wearing what appears to be a dark jumper dress over a floral blouse. I can't see any sign that the top and skirt are seperate. I doubt that this was a trendy style, because she would have been in her late 60's at the time. As for the term "model" I believe that in this period the word is referrring to the picture of the dress, in the sense of something to emulate or to be copied. The young ladies showing the dresses were called "mannequins". Margo lavolta press [33,186]CSuX:victorian 5/4 waltz and cakewalk workshops in sf bay area Subject: H-COST: Victorian 5/4 Waltz and Cakewalk Workshops in SF Bay Area From: Lavolta Press Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 10:27:10 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press On Saturday, June 12th Allan Terry and Frances Grimble will teach two workshops for the San Francisco Free Folk Festival. From 2 to 3 PM, they will teach Victorian 5/4 waltz variations. From 3 to 4, they will teach variations for the turn-of-the-century cakewalk (turn of the 20th century, that is). All variations were researched by the instructors from original manuals and early films. You do not need a partner to attend. Admission is free. The workshops will be held at: Roosevelt Middle School 460 Arguello Boulevard San Francisco, CA The Free Folk Festival will be held all day and evening for the weekend of June 12-13. It will include many workshops in folk and traditional dance and music. For a complete schedule, browse their web site: http://www.sffolkfest.org/ --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm lavolta press [48,187]CSuX:jumpers, models Subject: Re: H-COST: Jumpers, models From: Lavolta Press Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 10:49:18 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > > > > Fran Grimble's The Edwardian Modiste shows a jumper waist, > >a jumper suit, and a jumper blouse for this period, but not > >a full-length jumper in the sense that Americans use the > >word today. I didn't see the original post . . . but anyway, _The Edwardian Modiste_ has: A 1907 "Lady's Jumper Suit" on page 113. The original publications applied the term "suit" to dresses as well as to tailored suits with separate jackets and skirts A 1907 "Lady's Jumper Blouse" on page 128 And a number of dresses in similar styles that are not called "jumpers" or any specific style; for example the 1908 dress titled "For Autumn and Winter" on page 264 This style (a dress with short sleeves or no sleeves with a blouse underneath) was also called the "pinafore" and the "guimpe" style. The 1907 fashion column on page 69 uses all three terms in the same paragraph, "Much has been said of the pinafore or jumper style of waist. While this is a very youthful style, it is not confined to young girls. Women of mature years are also affecting the guimpe style." It seems to have been a very popular style in the 1906-1909 period. "Waist" in this period could refer to either a dress bodice or a blouse. As Margo said, "model" usually referred to a garment to be imitated or copied (not necessarily verbatim). Fran --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm kristen m. sieber [23,188]CSuX:new film rumors... can anyone confirm/deny/otherwise lend solid info., please? Subject: Re: H-COST: New Film Rumors... can anyone confirm/deny/otherwise lend solid info., please? From: "Kristen M. Sieber" Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 11:31:47 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: "Kristen M. Sieber" > In a message dated 6/3/99 12:45:13 PM, > kjalar@pacbell.net writes: > > The open issue covers Brittania - The Arthurian > Society, and it's > > participation in a Dark Age Major Movie being > filmed now called > > Gladiator starring Oliver Reed, Derek Jacobi, > Richard Harris > > and David Hemmings I forwarded this question to Arthurnet (International Arthurian Society, North American Branch). Let's see what they say. Kristen Morgain Sieber lady_gawain@yahoo.com Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[17,189]CSuX:models Subject: H-COST: models From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 15:04:04 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> Mannekin was also used to describe a model (a live human being, not just a form to put clothes on.) The term held on much longer in England than it did in the US (to describe humans, I mean.) Deborah penny ladnier [19,190]CSuX:jumpers, models Subject: Re: H-COST: Jumpers, models From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 15:21:11 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" Fran and list, Have you seen the jumper style dress in any periods prior to Edwardian? And were they called jumpers? My first dress to make in Home Ec. was a jumper dress, a popular style at the time. Wouldn't the dresses that have been in style for the past five years be considered jumpers The sleeveless dresses with the drop waist, you mainly see them in denim. I think I have about 10 of them, in every color. I personally call them "Teacher Dresses", because teachers wear them a lot. But they do seem to fall into the jumper category. Later...Penny http://www.costumegallery.com lavolta press [48,191]CSuX:jumpers, models Subject: Re: H-COST: Jumpers, models From: Lavolta Press Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 14:12:17 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press Penny Ladnier wrote: > -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" > > Fran and list, > > Have you seen the jumper style dress in any periods prior to Edwardian? And > were they called jumpers? Yes. I don't have time to check for the exact issues now, but I have some late 1860s and/or early 1870s fashion magazines with pictures of sleeveless bodices and white blouses. The bodices are not called "jumpers" that I recall. I think "peasant waists" was one term; probably the style was thought to be based on folk dress. The blouses were not necessarily called "blouses," either. I think "chemise russe" was one term. Fran > > > My first dress to make in Home Ec. was a jumper dress, a popular style at > the time. Wouldn't the dresses that have been in style for the past five > years be considered jumpers The sleeveless dresses with the drop waist, you > mainly see them in denim. I think I have about 10 of them, in every color. > I personally call them "Teacher Dresses", because teachers wear them a lot. > But they do seem to fall into the jumper category. > > Later...Penny > http://www.costumegallery.com > -- --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm albertcat@aol.com[14,192]CSuX:lacing techniques Subject: H-COST: Lacing techniques From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 19:43:42 EDT -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com Greetings all, Does anyone know of a book[s] or web site that has different lacing techniques? Y'know like single lacing & straight lacing. Hopefully with diagrams [how else can you explain it?] A director friend of mine wants to make handouts for some actors [of straight lacing] I thought this is actually a good thing just to have around. I want to do some 18th century things when I get free time & thought about offset eyelets & one lace lacing. Thanks ron carnegie [38,193]CSuX:feather question Subject: RE: H-COST: Feather Question From: Ron Carnegie Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 19:43:35 -0400 -Poster: Ron Carnegie At 10:38 AM 6/5/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > >Yes to everyone's points here. It does seem odd to take a >word which is applicable to 1350 Italy and apply it to >1550-1600 England. Certainly England flowered in >Elizabethan times, but to characterize it as an extension of >the Renaissance, while not entirely off base, does really >miss the kernel of it, IMO. Renaissance Faire has a certain >ring to it in a marketing sense, and applies to Europe in >general, while Elizabethan would be too delimiting for SCA >and faire purposes. > >Hope H. Dunlap > Depends upon the faire. The one I used to work for (and which started the craze) is in fact limited to Elizabethan England, though that was NOT always the case and does NOT apply to the visitors. Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* christopher ballis [12,194]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: Re: H-COST: Feather question From: "Christopher Ballis" Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 11:59:57 +1000 -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" Umm...maybe there were Aboriginal Ren people? -C. > > > Um, ostriches live in Africa...emus live in Australia...:-) > > Whether Renaisannce persons actually used ostrich feathers, I cannot > say. charlene charette [19,195]CSuX:new film rumors... can anyone confirm/deny/otherwise lend Subject: Re: H-COST: New Film Rumors... can anyone confirm/deny/otherwise lend From: Charlene Charette Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 22:26:48 -0500 -Poster: Charlene Charette Carol J. Bell Cannon wrote: > To which Cynan wrote: Anyone know more about this movie, like a > screenwriter, a more detailed plot, which studio is distributing it, or > projected release date? Some information is available at the internet movie database. This URL will take you straight to that movie: http://us.imdb.com/Title?0172495 --Charlene -- To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research. melanie wilson [13,196]CSuX:jumpers & vintage knitwear Subject: H-COST: Jumpers & vintage knitwear From: Melanie Wilson Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 05:41:18 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Might this be a reference to some sort of sweater? Help me out, British members. isn't a "jumper" like a pullover sweater? Yes now it is , but I too have been reading 1870 stuff which refered to jumpers, which were definatly not wooly sweaters, I also came acrose jersey (also know to use a the same thing as a jumper now) and guernseys, described as a knitted silk or wool garment clinging to the figureto mid thigh with an untrained kilted skirt of serge or flannel melanie wilson [11,197]CSuX:sir oliver reed, Subject: H-COST: Sir Oliver Reed, From: Melanie Wilson Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 05:41:19 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson > Sir Oliver Reed, I had thought to be deceased, but possibly he began the project and will therefore be in the final release... All the reports here said he was dead ! Mel(UK) andrea clef [19,198]CSuX:european titanic tour Subject: H-COST: Re: European Titanic tour From: Andrea Clef Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 11:20:31 +0200 -Poster: Andrea Clef Hello ! The only thing I know about it, is that it is going to stay in the "Messe Duesseldorf" here in Germany this summer. But so far, I haven`t found out about the exact date yet but I would also be interested to know about it. If I find out more, I will let you know. Many greetings, Diana melanie wilson [13,199]CSuX:mens waistcoat backs 1870s Subject: H-COST: Mens waistcoat backs 1870s From: Melanie Wilson Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 09:43:51 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson Can anyone tell me if the back of a gents waistcoat was in plain fabric (shiney) like today or in the same fabric as the front ? My sidesaddle waist coat is all the same & this dates back to early 1900s, but all the pictures I have only show the front Thanks Mel scott hulett [30,200]CSuX:mens waistcoat backs 1870s Subject: Re: H-COST: Mens waistcoat backs 1870s From: Scott Hulett Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 07:22:27 -0700 -Poster: Scott Hulett Mel, There was recently auctioned a gent's waistcoat on ebay. All original buttons and embroidery, totally gorgeous. Very late 18 c. It was Peacock blue with embroidery on the front and plain off white linen on the back. It was so beautiful, I had to save all the images from it. I also have a photo of a waist coat in progress from the early 19 c.(Regency), the design is embroidered on to a single piece if white satin. All it needs is to be cut out and sewn. But only the front is there. This makes me think that only the fronts were done and the backs were plain. Hope this helps, let me know if you want to see the waist coat pics, I have them in my image file. cheers, jd Melanie Wilson wrote: > -Poster: Melanie Wilson > > Can anyone tell me if the back of a gents waistcoat was in plain fabric > (shiney) like today or in the same fabric as the front ? > > My sidesaddle waist coat is all the same & this dates back to early 1900s, > but all the pictures I have only show the front > > Thanks > > Mel cynthia bucheger [23,201]CSuX:burn tests Subject: H-COST: burn tests From: "Cynthia Bucheger" Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 09:33:15 -0500 -Poster: "Cynthia Bucheger" I have a question about the burn tests that have been talked about. I understand that if the threads melt it is definately a polyester. If they don't melt it's a natural fiber. The smell of the burn can also tell me about the fiber, though it doesn't help me much, as I can't smell much difference between burns that I have done-sinus problems. What does it mean when the fabric refuses to burn unless the flame is kept directly on the threads? When the flame is moved away the fibers look undamaged but disolve into dust when touched. The fabric by the way is an upholestry velvet from the bargien table, no content available, not rubberized either. What about the natural fibers- does linen or cotton burn at a faster rate than the others? I have a linen-linen look fabric that burns like a natural fiber, and flames travel very fast up the thread. Is there a significance to that? Thanks Alexandria albertcat@aol.com[20,202]CSuX:sir oliver reed, Subject: Re: H-COST: Sir Oliver Reed, From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 10:46:49 EDT -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 6/6/99 5:47:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MelanieWilson@compuserve.com writes: << > Sir Oliver Reed, I had thought to be deceased, but possibly he began the project and will therefore be in the final release... All the reports here said he was dead ! >> The reports of his death have NOT been greatly exaggerated. However, when I talked to Annie Hadley, the head cutter for many of Sandy Powell's [and others] shows [she cut both "Elizabeth" & "Shakespeare in Love"] back in January, she was working on a gladiator movie [we joked about beefy men in short skirts]. So this could be the same film. arcadiacb@aol.com[17,203]CSuX:men s waistcoats Subject: H-COST: Re: Men's waistcoats From: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 10:55:56 EDT -Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Mel, Men's clothing isn't my forte, but from the originals I have seen and my understanding, waistcoats (at least early ones) only had the "good" fabric on the front--why waste money on something that would not be seen? The Museum of Costume in Bath has a lot of their men's 18th waistcoats online-for some reason I couldn't pull up the right pages this morning, maybe they are working on the site--but from what I remember when I looked at it before, there are full descriptions, sometimes a photo--I think this is basically their file catalogue info on each piece. The site is Museum of Costume Waistcoat Database . Hope this helps Charlene lois [22,204]CSuX:more books Subject: H-COST: more books From: Lois Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 11:05:38 +0000 -Poster: Lois Have listed some more books: Janet Arnold's Pattern of Fashions: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=113691646 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=114095644 Found 3 more Civil War Lady's Magazines: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=112798400 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=112801967 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=112807189 Also have more costume and fashion titles listed. My ebay user site: http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=books7 Lots of goodies that need good homes 8^) Lois j,k,s&a baird [12,205]CSuX:jumpers Subject: H-COST: jumpers From: "J,K,S&A Baird" Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 10:09:13 -0500 -Poster: "J,K,S&A Baird" Language is a living thing, words and meanings keep changing. Here's an interesting version of JUMPER from the OED: A kind of loose outer jacket or shirt reaching to the hips, made of canvas, serge, coarse linen, etc. and worn by sailors, truckmen, etc. Kim pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[17,206]CSuX:18c embroidered waistcoats. Subject: H-COST: 18c embroidered waistcoats. From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 11:19:05 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> This was very common in the 18c. (the back was *always* covered by the coat, in polite society!) It was possible to buy a piece of fabric (usually silk) already embroidered, with pocket flaps, etc. done to match, that could be cut out to size and put together (such items were rarely done all by the same person.) Deborah melanie wilson [7,207]CSuX:mens waistcoat backs 1870s Subject: H-COST: Mens waistcoat backs 1870s From: Melanie Wilson Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 14:28:47 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson Yes I'd like to see the pictures please Mel kat@grendal.rain.com[34,208]CSuX:sir oliver reed, Subject: Re: H-COST: Sir Oliver Reed, From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 12:30:45 +0000 -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com > > In a message dated 6/6/99 5:47:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > MelanieWilson@compuserve.com writes: > > << > Sir Oliver Reed, I had thought to > be deceased, but possibly he began the project and will therefore be in the > final release... > > All the reports here said he was dead ! > >> > > The reports of his death have NOT been greatly exaggerated. > > However, when I talked to Annie Hadley, the head cutter for many of Sandy > Powell's [and others] shows [she cut both "Elizabeth" & "Shakespeare in > Love"] back in January, she was working on a gladiator movie [we joked about > beefy men in short skirts]. So this could be the same film. One of the reports I read in the few days after he died last month said he had just finished a movie and this certainly sounds like the one they described. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ron carnegie [37,209]CSuX:mens waistcoat backs 1870s Subject: Re: H-COST: Mens waistcoat backs 1870s From: Ron Carnegie Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 15:52:39 -0400 -Poster: Ron Carnegie At 09:43 AM 6/6/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: Melanie Wilson > >Can anyone tell me if the back of a gents waistcoat was in plain fabric >(shiney) like today or in the same fabric as the front ? > >My sidesaddle waist coat is all the same & this dates back to early 1900s, >but all the pictures I have only show the front > >Thanks > >Mel I have seen original waistcoats done both ways. With sleeved waistcoats, the sleeves also are often done in a less expensive fabric, though sometimes the cuffs are fashion fabric, to be seen under the full sleeve of the coat. I am speaking of 18th and 19th century. Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* albertcat@aol.com[17,210]CSuX:mens waistcoat backs 1870s Subject: Re: H-COST: Mens waistcoat backs 1870s From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 16:59:03 EDT -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 6/6/99 3:55:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rcarnegie@widomaker.com writes: << >Can anyone tell me if the back of a gents waistcoat was in plain fabric >(shiney) like today or in the same fabric as the front ? > >> Every waistcoat from the 18th century I've seen had cotton or linen backs. This doesn't mean, however, that the backs couldn't be silk...but this happens less often. I've got some 19th century waistcoats with shawl collars & the underside of the collar as well as the back, is cotton, the facings only being of silk. This kind of thing is standard proceedure & not considered "skimping". scott hulett [11,211]CSuX:neat uk site Subject: H-COST: Neat UK site From: Scott Hulett Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 15:01:24 -0700 -Poster: Scott Hulett Hello the Group! I was hacking around on ebay and found this lovely woman's site. She's on the Isle of Skye. Not only does she sell some lovely things on ebay, she has several lovely 18 19 c. things on her site. Hope this works, let me know. cheers, jd http://www.artizania.co.uk/ margaret bolger [21,212]CSuX:neat uk site Subject: H-COST: Neat UK site From: Margaret Bolger Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 19:01:52 -0400 -Poster: Margaret Bolger Hello jd, Thank you for the endorsement1 I am flattered! Glad you liked my site! Margaret antique costume & textiles http://www.artizania.co.uk Message text written by INTERNET:h-costume@indra.com >I was hacking around on ebay and found this lovely woman's site. She's on the Isle of Skye. Not only does she sell some lovely things on ebay, she has several lovely 18 19 c. things on her site. Hope this works, let me know. cheers, jd http://www.artizania.co.uk/< kristen m. sieber [154,213]CSuX:new film rumors... can anyone confirm/deny/otherwise lend solid info., please? Subject: Re: H-COST: New Film Rumors... can anyone confirm/deny/otherwise lend solid info., please? From: "Kristen M. Sieber" Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 16:09:44 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: "Kristen M. Sieber" --- J Shoaf wrote: > Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 15:08:06 -0400 > To: "Kristen M. Sieber" > From: J Shoaf > Subject: Re: Fwd: H-COST: New Film Rumors... can > anyone > confirm/deny/otherwise lend solid info., > please? > > Kristen--I got this from the IMDB site: > > > Gladiator (1999) > > > Directed by > Ridley Scott > > > > Writing credits > David H. > Franzoni > > John Logan (I) > > > > Genre: Drama > > > Buy > > related > > > Books > > > > > > > User Rating: awaiting 5 > votes. > > Plot Outline: Gladiator > seeks revenge after being > denied the title of > Emperor. > > Production Notes/Status: > Status: > Filming > Last Updated: > 18 February > 1999 > Note: > Since this > project is categorized > as being in > production, the data is > subject to > change or could be > removed > completely. > > > Credited cast overview: > Spencer Treat Clark > Russell Crowe > .... > Maximus > Djimon Hounsou > .... > Juba > Derek Jacobi > .... > Gracchus > > Chris Kell > .... > Scribe > Ralph Moeller > Connie Nielsen > .... > Lucilla > Joaquin Phoenix > .... > Commidus > > Oliver Reed > .... > Proximo > > > >If anyone knows anything about this they can reply > to > >me or to: h-costume@indra.com > > > >Kristen Morgaine Sieber > >lady_gawain@yahoo.com > >> > >> -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" > >> > >> > >> In a message dated 6/3/99 12:45:13 PM, > >> kjalar@pacbell.net writes: > >> > The open issue covers Brittania - The Arthurian > >> Society, and it's > >> > participation in a Dark Age Major Movie being > >> filmed now called > >> > Gladiator starring Oliver Reed, Derek Jacobi, > >> Richard Harris > >> > and David Hemmings by the same guy who did the > >> Duellists and > >> > Bladerunner. > >> To which Cynan wrote: Anyone know more about > this > >> movie, like a > >> screenwriter, a more detailed plot, which studio > is > >> distributing it, or > >> projected release date? > >> I haven't heard anything about this. Sir > Oliver > >> Reed, I had thought to > >> be deceased, but possibly he began the project > and > >> will therefore be in the > >> final release... . Thank you for whatever info. > you > >> may be able to > >> provide. This is all I have seen. Carol > >> > >> > > >> majordomo@indra.com > >> > > > > >Get your free @yahoo.com address at > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com genevieve de courtanvaux [11,214]CSuX:textile merchant Subject: H-COST: Textile merchant From: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 22:34:07 -0500 -Poster: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" I am looking for an address, phone number or URL to a textile merchant called Timeless Textiles. They have sold at Gulf Wars and maybe at Pennsic. I think they are from the east coast area. If anyone knows of the info I am looking for you can e-mail me at gdc@airmail.net Carol Ross dietmar [59,215]CSuX:burn tests Subject: H-COST: Re: burn tests From: Dietmar Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 20:42:12 +0000 -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, Cynthia wrote: > I understand that if the threads melt it is definately a polyester. > If they don't melt it's a natural fiber. Not exactly. Natural fibers only burn, and don't melt while synthetics melt and burn. If it melts, it's a synthetic,although some of the cellulose based synthetics (i.e., rayon) act like a natural fiber. > The smell of the burn can also tell me about the fiber, though > it doesn't help me much, as I can't smell much difference between > burns that I have done-sinus problems. That's what friends are for. ;-) > What does it mean when the fabric refuses to burn unless the flame > is kept directly on the threads? When the flame is moved away the > fibers look undamaged but disolve into dust when touched. The > fabric by the way is an upholestry velvet from the bargien table, > no content available, not rubberized either. It sounds like a natural fiber because of the ash, but it could be rayon treated with flame retardant. Synthetics melt to form little plastic balls. Vegetable fibers burn to leave a dull grey ash that glows before going out. Animal fibers burn, but are self extinguishing, leaving a dull black hollow bead which crushes easily to grit. > What about the natural fibers- does linen or cotton burn at a > faster rate than the others? I have a linen-linen look fabric > that burns like a natural fiber, and flames travel very fast up > the thread. Is there a significance to that? Burn rate is determined by a number of factors. The easier way to decide whether it's linen or cotton is to look at the staple length. Take a single piece of thread and use your finger to scrape along its length and make it fray. Linen has very long bast fibers two to four inches and longer. The longest cotton staple is only an inch to an inch and one half long. Rayon can have exceptionally long fibers because it is machine made. Vegetable fibers (cotton, rayon, linen, hemp, ramie, jute, etc.) burn only, but the fiber does not retreat from the flame. The smell is that of burning paper, leaves, or wood. Animal fibers (wool, mohair, cashmere, alpaca, silk, rabbit, etc.) burn only and the fiber retreats from the flame. The smell is that of burning hair, feathers or meat. Silk doesn't have as strong an odor when burned. Hope this helps. Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." gwnvr@aol.com[18,216]CSuX:fire safety & skirts misinformation Subject: Re: H-COST: Fire safety & skirts Misinformation From: Gwnvr@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 23:43:28 EDT -Poster: Gwnvr@aol.com In a message dated 6/2/99 5:29:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rcarnegie@widomaker.com writes: << "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* >> I was just wondering what this quote was from... gwnvr@aol.com[7,217]CSuX:feather question Subject: Re: H-COST: Feather Question From: Gwnvr@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 00:32:10 EDT -Poster: Gwnvr@aol.com Thanks for all the ostrich info. Don't know why I thought they were from Australia, but I was quite aware that Africa was known to rennaisance explorers! melanie wilson [7,218]CSuX:mens waistcoat backs 1870s Subject: H-COST: Mens waistcoat backs 1870s From: Melanie Wilson Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 02:11:00 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson THanks for all the information Mel connie carroll [11,219]CSuX:sir oliver reed, Subject: Re: H-COST: Sir Oliver Reed, From: "Connie Carroll" Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 04:48:15 +0000 -Poster: "Connie Carroll" I just found out on the Movie DateBase Site that he died last month from a heart attack. Shame as he wasn't that old and was one of my favorite actors. I'm still waiting for The Bruce to come out as it is a period piece also. Kassandra NickKraken JUST CALL ME MISTRESS BUNNY christopher ballis [38,220]CSuX:regency ball report (australia) Subject: H-COST: Regency ball report (Australia) From: "Christopher Ballis" Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 16:02:07 +1000 -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" Last Saturday night, the Australian Costumers' Guild staged it's first Regency Ball. The event went so well that people have asked us to make it an annual event - jeeze, why do people always want us to work! The ball was held at the stunning, ornate Northcote Town Hall in Melbourne and was organised by Wendy Purcell with Paul Poulton. It was good to see so many costumes come along with their people, a good mix of civilian men, lovely ladies and military types, filling the room with colour and creating an atmosphere for several re-encactment groups, regular costumiers and first timers. There were so many great costumes, in fact, that Canadian visitor Katherine Jepson, acting as hall costume judge, was kept busy all night accosting people to present ribbons (although giving the Grenadere standees by the entranceway awards may have been above and beyond the call of duty). Entertainment was provided by dance caller Colin Townes and his musicians, providing simple leads for even the clumsiest or newest of dancers (and yes, THAT dance from the TV show had everyone on their feet and looked great). A video of Persuasion was won by a certain Army Private Potter who, in other places, is a Lieutenant Potter in the navy. There will be some shots of the Regency Ball posted on the Australian Costumers' Guild website in the coming weeks when we all remember to unload our cameras and get the film processed. As to another event of this nature? Agh! Why do we constantly find nooses for our heads! -C. penny ladnier [38,221]CSuX:jumpers Subject: H-COST: Jumpers From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 09:23:39 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" Thanks to all for the information about jumpers. I think we are getting a global education in fashion terminology. After realizing the confusion about the term jumper, I decided to create the webpage for the article on "Jumpers", http://www.costumegallery.com/McCalls/May_1908/Jumpers.htm This is from a 1908 McCall's magazine. This way our European friends can see what the U.S. calls jumpers. I am working on placing all the fashion articles from this issue of McCall's online. We are working on having corporate sponsorship to place many issues of fashion periodicals online. We want to make our online library a TRUE library for fashion research. I have spoken with many authorities in the field to select the type of publications to present first. I think you will be pleased with what they selected. A couple of museums and a private collector have offered some of their collections to placed online. We all agreed that since many people can not make it to view their collections, that we would bring the collections to you. After this first year of being online, professionally, we have discovered that the educational system wants more information like this online. Its not just our handful of costumers who are interested in past fashions. Many of our visitors are students from every level of education studying from literature to social studies. The teachers around the world are wanting their students to know how people dressed and lived in past eras. Later...Penny http://www.costumegallery.com albertcat@aol.com[15,222]CSuX:sir oliver reed, Subject: Re: H-COST: Sir Oliver Reed, From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 09:27:59 EDT -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 6/7/99 4:49:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Connie.Bunny@worldnet.att.net writes: << I just found out on the Movie DateBase Site that he died last month from a heart attack. Shame as he wasn't that old >> He drank himself into a heat attack ...24 drinks that night. And he was 60 something. A great actor though. "Women in Love" [that's 20's] & "The Cabin" [1850s Canada] are well worth seeing. Good costumes too. gina balestracci [34,223]CSuX:18c embroidered waistcoats. Subject: Re: H-COST: 18c embroidered waistcoats. From: "Gina Balestracci" Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 09:41:57 -0400 -Poster: "Gina Balestracci" There are some great photos of heavily embroidered waitscoats, both with the entire front out of the "fashion fabric" and just the facings out of the good stuff, in Saint-Aubin, Charles Germain de. Art of the Embroiderer (L'Art du Brodeur, 1770). Trans. Nikki Scheuer with additional notes and commentaries by Edward Maeder. Los Angeles: Los Angeles County Museun of Art; Boston: David R. Godine, 1983. It clearly shows back and sleeves made from plain fabric (linen, cotton, silk--some were replacements). It's a beautiful book--a facsimile and translation of the St. Aubin treatise with a center section of plates showing period garments that illustrate the techniques of embroidery under discussion. Gina Balestracci balestraccig@mail.montclair.edu Deborah Pulliam wrote: > -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) > > < were done and the backs were plain. >> > > This was very common in the 18c. (the back was *always* covered by the > coat, in polite society!) It was possible to buy a piece of fabric (usually > silk) already embroidered, with pocket flaps, etc. done to match, that > could be cut out to size and put together (such items were rarely done all > by the same person.) danielle nunn [23,224]CSuX:drawers (was: "what to wear") Subject: Re: H-COST: drawers (was: "what to wear") From: Danielle Nunn Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 12:01:42 -0400 -Poster: Danielle Nunn At 03:24 01/06/99 -0700, you wrote: > Greetings, >I've seen late 16th c examples of German and Italian "pants"...I don't >recall seeing any English examples, even in Janet Arnold, but I could be >remembering wrong... I feel the need to comment at this point. "Pantlettes" (which is not a 16th century term that I've ever seen) are refered to as "drawers" in the 16th century - specifically England. They are believe to have orginated in Spain during the 15th century as an adaption of Moorish fashion. From Spain they slowly spread to other parts of Europe and appear in England in the latter half of the 16th century as a gift to Queen Elizabeth. They were considered "foreign" and generally worn in England at the time. Cheers, Danielle merouda the true of bornover [32,225]CSuX:evolution of pants Subject: H-COST: Evolution of pants From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 10:29:57 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover A question occurred to me this weekend. In many illuminated manuscripts of the 13th century on up, men are shown wearing some type of pants or braes or drawers. Women aren't, the most they do is tuck up their skirts when doing heavy labor. What prompted men to move from the long gowns and robes of the 10th-12th century to two legged garments? And why would men have been more prone to develop this type of garment than women if chafing isn't the reason? It seems clear to me that certain ideas about nudity or undress, at least for the non noble classes, just weren't as retrictive as today. For instance, the picture in the Tres Riche Heures where the three peasants are in their cottage warming their cockles. No one is the least bothered about lifting their skirts and showing their stuff. And none of them have any pants on. So if men wore them for some reasons and not for others..... well the *logical* next step to be would be, what about the women? I *do* realize that just because it makes logical sense to me now, doesn't mean it did to them. So the main question is.... What prompted either sex in any locale or time to start wearing pants.? -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir wylie & gail [61,226]CSuX:evolution of pants Subject: RE: H-COST: Evolution of pants From: "Wylie & Gail" Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 12:00:13 -0700 -Poster: "Wylie & Gail" I am not a scholar and haven't researched any of this, but I'm just wondering if perhaps men riding horseback during battle discovered a need for something between the saddle or horses back that protected their gentle parts? From horse riding men the style could have filtered down to those not needing said protection. Or perhaps it was a fashion seen in other cultures (I'm thinking Mongols, 13th century) and introduced into Europe? Or perhaps it was something that the upper-class could afford to wear, but the lower classes could not? "Show off those white linen knickers, dearie!" Just my two cents, ~Meryld > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Merouda the True of Bornover > Sent: Monday, 07 June, 1999 10:30 > To: Historical Costume > Subject: H-COST: Evolution of pants > > > > -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > > A question occurred to me this weekend. In many illuminated > manuscripts of the 13th century on up, men are shown wearing some type > of pants or braes or drawers. Women aren't, the most they do is tuck > up their skirts when doing heavy labor. What prompted men to move > from the long gowns and robes of the 10th-12th century to two legged > garments? And why would men have been more prone to develop this type > of garment than women if chafing isn't the reason? > > It seems clear to me that certain ideas about nudity or undress, at > least for the non noble classes, just weren't as retrictive as today. > For instance, the picture in the Tres Riche Heures where the three > peasants are in their cottage warming their cockles. No one is the > least bothered about lifting their skirts and showing their stuff. > And none of them have any pants on. So if men wore them for some > reasons and not for others..... well the *logical* next step to be > would be, what about the women? I *do* realize that just because it > makes logical sense to me now, doesn't mean it did to them. > > So the main question is.... What prompted either sex in any locale or > time to start wearing pants.? > > -- > Cynthia Long > Merouda the True of Bornover > Barony of Madrone > Kingdom of An Tir > > > r.l. shep [53,227]CSuX:evolution of pants Subject: Re: H-COST: Evolution of pants From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 12:12:07 -0700 -Poster: "R.L. Shep" Biforcated garments - they are known as something like that - came in with the Mongol invasion of Europe. The reason behind them is that it is easier to ride horses with them and the Mongols did. And they were more prone to be adopted by men because men were the warriors. There maybe other reasons as well, but this is the classic one. ~!~ R.L.Shep http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks ---------- >From: Merouda the True of Bornover >To: Historical Costume >Subject: H-COST: Evolution of pants >Date: Mon, Jun 7, 1999, 10:29 AM > > >-Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > >A question occurred to me this weekend. In many illuminated >manuscripts of the 13th century on up, men are shown wearing some type >of pants or braes or drawers. Women aren't, the most they do is tuck >up their skirts when doing heavy labor. What prompted men to move >from the long gowns and robes of the 10th-12th century to two legged >garments? And why would men have been more prone to develop this type >of garment than women if chafing isn't the reason? > >It seems clear to me that certain ideas about nudity or undress, at >least for the non noble classes, just weren't as retrictive as today. >For instance, the picture in the Tres Riche Heures where the three >peasants are in their cottage warming their cockles. No one is the >least bothered about lifting their skirts and showing their stuff. >And none of them have any pants on. So if men wore them for some >reasons and not for others..... well the *logical* next step to be >would be, what about the women? I *do* realize that just because it >makes logical sense to me now, doesn't mean it did to them. > >So the main question is.... What prompted either sex in any locale or >time to start wearing pants.? > >-- >Cynthia Long >Merouda the True of Bornover >Barony of Madrone >Kingdom of An Tir > > > lynn meyer [25,228]CSuX:burn tests Subject: H-COST: Re: burn tests From: Lynn Meyer Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 12:02:42 -0700 -Poster: Lynn Meyer >From: Dietmar > >Burn rate is determined by a number of factors. The easier way to decide >whether it's linen or cotton is to look at the staple length. Take a single >piece of thread and use your finger to scrape along its length and make it >fray. Linen has very long bast fibers two to four inches and longer. The >longest cotton staple is only an inch to an inch and one half long. Rayon can >have exceptionally long fibers because it is machine made. I read somewhere that American textile factories chop linen up to the same length as cotton, because that length was what their machinery was designed to handle. Therefore, other linen, e.g. from Ireland, was preferable, to get the same drape as in, say, medieval times. I haven't checked personally on how accurate this is or was :-) But since bast fibers can be several feet long, when just removed from the flax stalk, it seems plausible. Lynn (Halima) leslie helms [13,229]CSuX:wool stitchery book/ osma tod Subject: H-COST: Wool Stitchery book/ Osma Tod From: Leslie Helms Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 11:36:01 -0700 -Poster: Leslie Helms One of our members has a book on ebay at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=111930444 which I also have in my library. It's a charming little book and has some nice pictures of simple wool work with good diagrams of stitch patterns. I can't find a date in mine, but it must be 20s, or 30s at the latest. Nobody has bid on it yet and the asking price is low, so take a look if you like such things. It's closing in a few hours. Leslie dietmar [31,230]CSuX:evolution of pants Subject: H-COST: Re: Evolution of pants From: Dietmar Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 13:11:46 +0000 -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, The record we have of pants being worn is scarce and full of holes. There are very early bog finds and Roman statuary of Celts and Germanics wearing pants. One of Charlemagne's biographers says that he only wore long tunics twice in his life, preferring pants and a short tunic the rest of the time. The Bayeaux Tapestry shows Norman cavalry wearing what appears to be pants, though there is some dispute about this. Later in the "high middle ages" while men were wearing two piece hose (two separate legs) it is widely believed that they tucked their long chemise between their legs and up in front and back and did not wear "underwear" in any modern sense. This continued right through to the end of the 16th century at least. There was never a time period where all men wore pants or that they did not wear some other long robe or skirt type clothes. I don't see conclusive evidence for men wearing pants from the year ____ on, until you get into the...errrr...17th century? After 1600 or so my pool of knowledge is rather shallow. Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." merouda the true of bornover [23,231]CSuX:evolution of pants Subject: Re: H-COST: Evolution of pants From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 13:07:02 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > The reason behind them is that it is easier > to ride horses with them and the Mongols did. > wondering if perhaps men riding horseback during battle discovered a need > for something between the saddle or horses back that protected their gentle > parts? > This was my first thought as well. The only reasonable one I could think of actually. Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[14,232]CSuX:h cost: reed Subject: H-COST: H Cost: Reed From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 16:36:51 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> Not to mention The Three Musketeers and The Four Musketeers. Deborah stitchwitch [34,233]CSuX:wool stitchery book/ osma tod Subject: Re: H-COST: Wool Stitchery book/ Osma Tod From: "StitchWitch" Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 15:05:38 PDT -Poster: "StitchWitch" > One of our members has a book on ebay at > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=111930444 which I > also have in my library. It's a charming little book and has some nice > pictures of simple wool work with good diagrams of stitch patterns. I > can't find a date in mine, but it must be 20s, or 30s at the latest. > Nobody has bid on it yet and the asking price is low, so take a look if you > like such things. It's closing in a few hours. > > Leslie Argh! You've done me in! For the longest time, I've been a good little stitcher and resisted the temptation of registering on e-bay, but now this book comes along. Again, Argh! And yes, I made a bid. Aaaaaaarrrrrgggghhhhhh!!!!!!!! ;) Kate ---- StitchWitch Man is certainly stark mad: he cannot make a flea, yet he makes gods by the dozens. - Montaigne, Essays - 1588 Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ the purple elephant [44,234]CSuX:evolution of pants Subject: Re: H-COST: Evolution of pants From: The Purple Elephant Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 09:35:02 +0930 (CST) -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Mon, 7 Jun 1999, Merouda the True of Bornover wrote: > > -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > > A question occurred to me this weekend. In many illuminated > manuscripts of the 13th century on up, men are shown wearing some type > of pants or braes or drawers. Women aren't, the most they do is tuck > up their skirts when doing heavy labor. What prompted men to move > from the long gowns and robes of the 10th-12th century to two legged > garments? And why would men have been more prone to develop this type > of garment than women if chafing isn't the reason? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but peasnat workers in the fields (the male ones anyway) never wore long tunics, but always shorter ones, and some kind of leg covering. > > It seems clear to me that certain ideas about nudity or undress, at > least for the non noble classes, just weren't as retrictive as today. > For instance, the picture in the Tres Riche Heures where the three > peasants are in their cottage warming their cockles. No one is the > least bothered about lifting their skirts and showing their stuff. If this is the piccy I think, aren't all three sitting facing a wall with a fire? So they wouldn't see each others bits...only we get to see that. Maybe it was put in as a bit of a thrill for the Duke :-) > And none of them have any pants on. So if men wore them for some > reasons and not for others..... well the *logical* next step to be > would be, what about the women? I *do* realize that just because it > makes logical sense to me now, doesn't mean it did to them. > > So the main question is.... What prompted either sex in any locale or > time to start wearing pants.? Well, I can imagine why men wore something for reaping :-) All that long scratchy grass.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ david s. mallinak [23,235]CSuX:clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Fw: Clothing From: "David S. Mallinak" Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 21:58:50 -0700 -Poster: "David S. Mallinak" > >From: Phil and Karan Foster > >To: ches@io.com > >Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 10:42 AM > >Subject: Clothing > > > > > >I am interested in the clothing of Scotland around the 1350s. Can you maybe > give me a direction to look. Book titles would be helpful. > > Was going through Costume list messages. You could also try to look up "Old Highland Dress" by H.F. McClintock. There were two editions 1939 and 1946. Dunbar cites McClintock on several occasions. Your most obident servant David S Mallinak matchlck@erols.com dietmar [21,236]CSuX:evolution of pants Subject: H-COST: Re: Evolution of pants From: Dietmar Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 22:03:30 +0000 -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, Claire wrote: > Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but peasnat workers in the fields > (the male ones anyway) never wore long tunics, but always shorter > ones, and some kind of leg covering. I don't know about always, but certainly a majority of the examples we have. I've seen them with or with out pants, but it's also more usual than not to see pants. Dietmar  "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." sarah toney [38,237]CSuX:wool stitchery book/ osma tod Subject: Re: H-COST: Wool Stitchery book/ Osma Tod From: Sarah Toney Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 06:11:25 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney Tee-hee... you have been corrupted... it's an addiction... ;-) I just won 10 yards of royal purple velvet for $10.00. Gotta love no reserves! Sarah > Argh! You've done me in! For the longest time, I've > been a good little > stitcher and resisted the temptation of registering > on e-bay, but now this > book comes along. > Again, Argh! > And yes, I made a bid. > Aaaaaaarrrrrgggghhhhhh!!!!!!!! ;) > > Kate > ---- > StitchWitch > > Man is certainly stark mad: he cannot make a flea, > yet he makes gods by the > dozens. - Montaigne, Essays - 1588 > > > > > Get your free, private email at > http://mail.excite.com/ > > majordomo@indra.com > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com megan & david schmidt [29,238]CSuX:wool stitchery book/ osma tod Subject: Re: H-COST: Wool Stitchery book/ Osma Tod From: Megan & David Schmidt Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 09:41:27 -0500 -Poster: Megan & David Schmidt Doesn't it concern anyone that fabric is listed under COLLECTIBLES:textiles:fabric? It's kinda hard for me to buy fabric when I am faced with the realization that it may just be a collectible, not part of a "project" Megan PS anyone ever see the cartoon of two farmers, standing outside in front of a couple of silos? One farmer says to another, "So, whatcha got in your silos? Corn? Grain?" The other farmer looks at him and laughs.."Oh, no.....that's where Martha stores her fabric." Sarah Toney wrote: > -Poster: Sarah Toney > > Tee-hee... you have been corrupted... it's an addiction... ;-) I just > won 10 yards of royal purple velvet for $10.00. Gotta love no reserves! > > Sarah margo anderson [21,239]CSuX:wool stitchery book/ osma tod Subject: Re: H-COST: Wool Stitchery book/ Osma Tod From: Margo Anderson Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:59:00 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson At 09:41 AM 6/8/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-Poster: Megan & David Schmidt > >Doesn't it concern anyone that fabric is listed under >COLLECTIBLES:textiles:fabric? It's kinda hard for me to buy fabric when I >am faced with the realization that it may just be a collectible, not part >of a "project" > Well, ANYTHING is "collectable", including things that most of us would consider trash, like beer cans and matchbooks. They get listed as collectable in the hope that people will pay more for them. It's up to you to decide if the fabric you buy is "collectable" or not. Margo nancy santella [16,240]CSuX:velvet source Subject: H-COST: Velvet Source From: "Nancy Santella" Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:26:05 -0400 -Poster: "Nancy Santella" Hello all, I am looking for reasonably priced cotton velvet to make Houpelandes. I have one source at $11.00 a yard but am having trouble finding others to compare. I will definitely welcome any help. Thank you, Anna OftderTurm Life is a Party. Each day is a gift, to be opened with Anticipation, Joy and Thankfulness. anah [24,241]CSuX:velvet source Subject: Re: H-COST: Velvet Source From: Anah Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 12:28:46 -0400 -Poster: Anah call NY Fabrics their velvet is $10 a yard. the # there is 212-768-8737 they are usually VERY busy because their prices are SO very good (on EVERYTHING).!! nO AFFILIATION...just a happy customer Nancy Santella wrote: > > -Poster: "Nancy Santella" > > Hello all, > > I am looking for reasonably priced cotton velvet to make > Houpelandes. I have one source at $11.00 a yard but am having trouble > finding others to compare. I will definitely welcome any help. > > Thank you, > > Anna OftderTurm > Life is a Party. Each day is a gift, to be opened with > Anticipation, Joy and Thankfulness. > kate m bunting [10,242]CSuX:o.t.; "sir" oliver reed Subject: H-COST: O.T.; "Sir" Oliver Reed From: "KATE M BUNTING" Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 17:39:34 +0100 -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" Just for the record, the late Mr.Reed had not been knighted as far as I'm aware! BTW, "Women in Love" was fillmed partly at Elvaston Castle, a house a few miles from here whose grounds are now open to the public. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby sarah toney [33,243]CSuX:velvet source Subject: Re: H-COST: Velvet Source From: Sarah Toney Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 09:46:32 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney A friend of mine had a really great source... as soon as she gets back from lunch, I'll ask and see if she has the info on it and let you know! Sarah > > Hello all, > > I am looking for reasonably priced cotton > velvet to make > Houpelandes. I have one source at $11.00 a yard but > am having trouble > finding others to compare. I will definitely welcome > any help. > > Thank you, > > Anna OftderTurm > Life is a Party. Each day is a gift, to be opened > with > Anticipation, Joy and Thankfulness. > > > majordomo@indra.com > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com sarah toney [23,244]CSuX:velvet Subject: H-COST: Velvet From: Sarah Toney Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:58:01 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney > *sigh* Well, I just talked to my friend here... she > said the velvet > was advertised as really cheap, but she sent her > money months ago and > hasn't received anything... so I won't reccommend > someone who isn't > reliable. Sorry! > > Sarah > > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at > http://mail.yahoo.com > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com henk t jong [35,245]CSuX:evolution of pants Subject: Re: H-COST: Evolution of pants From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:23:57 +0200 -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi all, Someone wrote: > > The reason behind them is that it is easier > > to ride horses with them and the Mongols did. > > > wondering if perhaps men riding horseback during battle discovered a need > > for something between the saddle or horses back that protected their gentle > > parts? > > Bareback riding with no pants on is not so difficult and not painful at all. It's the saddle that kills! Believe me: you need pants of some sort or other. Especially with the high ridge knight's saddle. Recently it is proposed that knights between ca 1050 and 1400 had special short leather (chamois?) breeches to protect even the linen-clad crotch on long rides or crusade campaigns. Henk henk t jong [143,246]CSuX:evolution of pants Subject: Re: H-COST: Evolution of pants From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:10:46 +0200 -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi List, Cynthia wrote: > A question occurred to me this weekend. In many illuminated > manuscripts of the 13th century on up, men are shown wearing some type > of pants or braes or drawers. Women aren't, the most they do is tuck > up their skirts when doing heavy labor. What prompted men to move > from the long gowns and robes of the 10th-12th century to two legged > garments? And why would men have been more prone to develop this type > of garment than women if chafing isn't the reason? Here's what we found in more than 10 years of research. Bronze Age Celts wore pants, closed before and behind, there is ample evidence for this in Roman sources. When the Romans reached northern climes they reluctantly adopted pants/breeches for riding. German tribes (Saxons, Franks, Frisians) wore pants as well as can be seen on various Roman victory monuments. These Germanics joined the legions and there also introduced pants. By ca 500 many of the Celtic, German and Post Roman (Romanised) peoples in North Western Europe wore pants. Charlemagne is said to have worn linen underpants (drawers) next to the skin, over which he wore hose (we don't know if these were real pants or seperate leggings, I think the former. Why would he differ from the other Franks?). Vikings wore pants too; there is archeological evidence for them (Thorsberg (with feet!), Damendorf (without feet), Daetgen (these are supposed to be women's pants!)). By then we're into the 11th c. Several pictures of Vikings and Normans show people with fairly narrow and close fitting pantlegs. We know there were already pants with feet and that for several purposes men wound their lower legs with strips of band- or cardwoven material to be able to ride better and move through damp forest with a lot of undergrowth. As everybody knows: normal pantlegs get wet in long grass or brush and slap your legs, which is a very uncomfortable feeling. It is much more cosy to have your legs wrapped close in a dubble layer of wool under these circumstances. Then comes a period of wich nothing is known about legwear: ca 1020-1100. We see close fitting hose with hardly a wrinkle, but definetely coloured, so there is no confusion here with bare legs. They must be close fitting pants or seperate hose with feet which are pulled up tight. Then, in an Evangelarium of St Edmunds Abbey, Bury, kept in Pembroke College, Cambridge (MS 120), dating to the beginning of the 12th c, there are miniatures of common people, peasants, criminals, etc. which clearly show separate hose with a higher front than back, which is clearly tied to a belt under the hitched up tunic. There are also pictures of men in long, wide (under) pants, reaching over the calves, being undressed or clapped in manacles in a prison situation. The latter has exactly the wide crotchpart of later underpants. After that I have seen dozens of underpants in whites or light greys in the same sources as gaily coloured seperate hose. From the middle of the 13th c onwards there is abundant evidence that hose have won the day, although as late as the 15th c sometimes peasants, especially very poor ones, can be seen in wide long pants of a coloured cloth. Besides this: everybody (men, that is) seems to have worn underpants. Even the poor Franciscans in the beginning of the 13th c, when, to avoid losing them to thieving Hungarians, they dirtied them with all kinds of filth (a.o. dung), so they would not have to go completely naked. They also wore linen shirts under their habits. Several sources, quoted in Bumke 'Hoefische Kultur', say that it was considered shameful to go without underwear. My hypothesis is: long pants, with or without feet, have been the normal male wear from at least the Neolithicum in Northern and Eastern Europe (Slavs wear them too, as did Magyars, Parthians, Scythians, Persians, etc) until now. During the early 10th c there arose a fashion, probably a mixture of neccessity and showing of a good leg, to make these pants very tight; as tight as possible, while before they were, if neccessay, just bound with bands. Underpants have probably been worn for a long time as well, but since when is very hard to make out. Wide underpants with tight complete pants go together uneasily. They bunch up around the crotch and this feels uncomfortable if the underpants are made of linen and the pants of wool. To free this part of the anatomy, pants were made into hose, which can be pulled up tighter than pants with feet, which are held up by a belt (until the rise of points, which was quite a different concept). Seperate hose have a very long history. Oetzi, the Iceman, already wore them 2000 bC, although these had no feet. Seperate hose of leather were especially used by hunters, both riding or walking, and sheperds to protect the woollen pants under them from thorns and catching branches. In my opinion hose have held out so long because they made a fashion statement and attracted ladies. As the cloth got more supple or stretched better, more leg was shown. People who wouldn't or shouldn't, ,just wore longer coats or robes, or cheated by applying false calves or thighs. Even when Spanish or Venetian breeches came into fashion, the lower leg was and stayed an attraction puller. Until the beginning of the 19th c a well turned calve was very much admired and the return of the long pants was a disappointment to many a female. > It seems clear to me that certain ideas about nudity or undress, at > least for the non noble classes, just weren't as retrictive as today. > For instance, the picture in the Tres Riche Heures where the three > peasants are in their cottage warming their cockles. No one is the > least bothered about lifting their skirts and showing their stuff. > And none of them have any pants on. The miniature (February) shows two peasants, a man and a woman, warming themselves in front of a fire, their genitals showing. Next to them is another woman, dressed exactly like the peasant lady, but she's only lifts her skirt a little, here shift showing, to bare her lower legs from just under the knees. She modestly averts here face from the scene next to her. Above her is a clothpole attached to the wall. Over this hang two white pieces of cloth, one longer and narrower than the other which is fuller and rather wide. These could be towels, but I doubt this. Towels were folded and hung straight, not in folds. They could be undergarments, even wide underpants. The trouble is that in the same miniature a farmer chopping a tree is shown, whose cotte is split in the middle and both parts are stuffed between his belt, thus showing his short underpants with the characteristic crotch-pouch of the period. The hanging garments definitely are not of the type of these underpants. Female underpants, then? We will never know (probably). Incidentally, these short underpants also appear on the June miniature of the same Heures; a white and a grey pair, and in July; a white pair, and in September (white again) and on the Crucifixion both convicts beside Christ wear them (white). In the Heures the hose are either shown covering the whole leg, or rolled down to under the knees. So in the February scene and several others. This goes for women too. > So if men wore them for some > reasons and not for others..... well the *logical* next step to be > would be, what about the women? I *do* realize that just because it > makes logical sense to me now, doesn't mean it did to them. > I still think women wore them, but apart from one 15th c misericorde where a woman is either stepping out of or pulling underpants on (probably portraying the saying of "wearing the pants in a household"), I don't have any proof. > So the main question is.... What prompted either sex in any locale or > time to start wearing pants.? > See above Hope this helps, Henk henk t jong [44,247]CSuX:evolution of pants Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Evolution of pants From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:19:18 +0200 -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi all, Dietmar wrote: > Bayeaux Tapestry shows Norman cavalry wearing what appears to be pants, though > there is some dispute about this. This is the (un)famous split in the hauberk, which shows up as short pants. > > Later in the "high middle ages" while men were wearing two piece hose (two > separate legs) it is widely believed that they tucked their long chemise > between their legs and up in front and back and did not wear "underwear" in > any modern sense. This continued right through to the end of the 16th century > at least. > I disagree. There is abundant evidence that everybody (men!) wore underpants, at least in pictures dating to the early 12th c. > There was never a time period where all men wore pants or that they did not > wear some other long robe or skirt type clothes. I don't see conclusive > evidence for men wearing pants from the year ____ on, until you get into > the...errrr...17th century? After 1600 or so my pool of knowledge is rather shallow. I think men have always worn pants in Western, Northern and Eastern Europe, be it in the form of underpants (braies, breccae, drawers, breeches) when they wore hose, or upperpants in Celtic, German, Viking, 16th c Spanish and Venetian, 17th and 18th c kneebreeches, until now. Henk fred struthers [22,248]CSuX:catalog: museo de telas Subject: H-COST: catalog: MUSEO DE TELAS From: Fred Struthers Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 14:01:10 -0700 -Poster: Fred Struthers Regarding an old posting on h-costume recommending this museum catalog, - We have a few copies left of MUSEO DE TELAS MEDIEVALES: Monasterio de Sta Maria La Real de Huelgas which I have obtained from Spain. The price is $16 plus 2.75 shipping (CA residents add tax) which is quite reasonable for this catalog. If this is your area (13thC) you will be interested. Description follows: historical. numerous color photo illustrations of 13th Century clothing and cloth from tombs of Royalty. Including cothardie, surcotes/pelotes, coif or cap, mantos/capes, heraldic brocades, etc. In Spanish. 4to size. 134 pgs. Contact me to order: Fred Struthers fsbks@mcn.org -- Fred Struthers http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks hope h. dunlap [62,249]CSuX:velvet source Subject: H-COST: Velvet Source From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 19:28:11 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" At Jo-Mar in Philadelphia, it goes on sale for the entire Christmas season at $8/yard. They do not do mail order however. Where are you located? Also, I saw some wonderful Fortuny and G------ velvet evening coats at the Costume Institute at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York today. From '05 through the early twenties as I recall. The printed intricate all-over designs mimicked Medieval brocade patterns in a number of cases. In other cases, the patterns were more art deco. The printing was in silver and gold textile paint---scrumptious. Silver paint on muted turquoise velvet, gold paint on sepia velvet,etc. The paint color on one garment changed from gold to copper back to gold and so on in softly blended "stripes," while the all-over pattern was medieval, the eagles in a diaper (diamond) design and lots of complex vines. The paint changed the texture of the velvet, creating an attractive textural contrast to the unprinted parts of the design. Definitely a candidate for do-it-yourself stenciled or block printed embellishment on small areas. I'm guessing these were silk screened because there were no visible joins in the huge patterns. Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Nancy Santella -Poster: "Nancy Santella" Hello all, I am looking for reasonably priced cotton velvet to make Houpelandes. I have one source at $11.00 a yard but am having trouble finding others to compare. I will definitely welcome any help. Thank you, Anna OftderTurm Life is a Party. Each day is a gift, to be opened with Anticipation, Joy and Thankfulness. _____ majordomo@indra.com kathleen@niagara.com[16,250]CSuX:velvet source Subject: Re: H-COST: Velvet Source From: kathleen@niagara.com Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:18:43 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: kathleen@niagara.com > I am looking for reasonably priced cotton velvet to make >Houpelandes. I have one source at $11.00 a yard but am having trouble >finding others to compare. I will definitely welcome any help. Where do you live? I can do better than that here in Southern Ontario (about $6 cdn...which is what? $4 US?), but that won't help if you live in California or something. Kathleen (Catriona) I'm back.... franchesca havas [12,251]CSuX:fabric sources in maine Subject: H-COST: Fabric sources in Maine From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 20:36:09 -0500 -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" I have a friend who lives in Maine and wants to know of any fabric places around. I think she is willing to travel a little bit to find it. She was amused when "The" fabric place that is the best around was Jo Ann's. :) Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas kat & kent [18,252]CSuX:velvet source Subject: Re: H-COST: Velvet Source From: Kat & Kent Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 21:50:58 -0500 -Poster: Kat & Kent Nancy Santella wrote: > > I am looking for reasonably priced cotton velvet to make > Houpelandes. I have one source at $11.00 a yard but am having trouble > finding others to compare. I will definitely welcome any help. As I recall, the cotton velvet at Sirs in Fayetteville, TN was $5.50 a yard but I don't know if they do mail order and you can never be sure how much there will be of any particular color. They might also have some cotton velvet at the Sirs across the street from the one which carries regular fabric as well as upholstery fabric and might well have velvet there that is cotton. Kat lola lee [31,253]CSuX:cossack uniform accessories? Subject: H-COST: Cossack Uniform Accessories? From: Lola Lee Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:15:34 -0400 -Poster: Lola Lee I have a good friend who belongs to a male chorus, and for an upcoming project he is having costumes created. Some of the costumes will be Cossack uniforms - the seamstress already has a copy of the Folkwear Patterns Cossack uniform, and recently they went to G Street Fabrics to select materials. The final outfits will be cotton or linen, lined with acetate (I guess because it's cheaper, and the costumes need to be comfortable). She's working on a prototype uniform to see how things look before starting on the real outfits. Now he is looking for swords, emblems, "the little hangy things that look like medals on the belt", cartridges, whatever that a Cossack would have when wearing the uniform. I guess these would need to be as authentic as possible, as this is a chorus that sings Russian, Ukrainian, Slavic music. He's referring to the article about Cossacks in the National Geographic issue that was published late last year as a guide for locating similiar items. If these can be obtained, or borrowed, from somebody in the Washington DC metro area, all the better. Thanks! Lola - mailto:lola@his.com Gospodi Pomilui | Lord Have Mercy | Get a Mac and a Palm! http://www.his.com/~lola/ljl.html | ICQ: 14914550 I'm in Bowie, MD, USA, halfway between DC and Annapolis. david s. mallinak [20,254]CSuX:cossack uniform accessories? Subject: Re: H-COST: Cossack Uniform Accessories? From: "David S. Mallinak" Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 23:59:09 -0700 -Poster: "David S. Mallinak" > I have a good friend who belongs to a male chorus, and for an upcoming > project he is having costumes created. She's working on a prototype > uniform to see how things look before starting on the real outfits.Now he is > looking for swords, emblems, He's referring to the article about > Cossacks in the National Geographic issue that was published late last year > as a guide for locating similiar items. > If these can be obtained, or borrowed, from somebody in the Washington DC > metro area, all the better. Thanks! Would please be so kind as to let me know what issue of National Geographic the article is in. I am also interested in what assories for a Cossack costume would need. David S Mallinak melanie wilson [16,255]CSuX:evolution of pants Subject: H-COST: Evolution of pants From: Melanie Wilson Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 02:41:12 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Bareback riding with no pants on is not so difficult and not painful at all. It's the saddle that kills! Believe me: you need pants of some sort or other. Especially with the high ridge knight's saddle. Recently it is proposed that knights between ca 1050 and 1400 had special short leather (chamois?) breeches to protect even the linen-clad crotch on long rides or crusade campaigns. Yes I've seen chamois leather breeches proposed for women riding aside too, from about 16th C. In fact I've just seen a probably victorian pair for auction locally. As for riding bareback, I think it depends very much on the type of horse melanie wilson [21,256]CSuX:evolution of pants-leg wraps Subject: H-COST: Evolution of Pants-leg wraps From: Melanie Wilson Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 02:41:14 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson >several purposes men wound their lower legs with strips of band- or cardwoven material to be able to ride better and move through damp forest with a lot of undergrowth. Also Anglo Saxon women are believed to have adopted the leg wrap style > As everybody knows: normal pantlegs get wet in long grass or brush and slap your legs, which is a very uncomfortable feeling. It is much more cosy to have your legs wrapped close in a dubble layer of wool under these circumstances. Another point, I frequently end up doing my animals after and event in kit, the leg wraps are the things that get dirty/muddy and wet, these are easily replaced , washed and dried compared to full, pant type garments. A very practicle style Mel barbara maren winkler [43,257]CSuX:titanic european tour Subject: H-COST: Re: Titanic European tour From: Barbara Maren Winkler Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 12:00:52 +0200 -Poster: Barbara Maren Winkler >- -Poster: Eleanor Farrell > >I've received a query from someone in Ireland who wants to find out where >the Titanic Tour, which is presumably in Europe for the next few years, is >scheduled. Do any of our European list members have this info? I'm sure >there's more than one person who'd be interested...... please reply to the >list and I will pass on the info to the person who contacted me. In December 1998 it was obviously in London. at http://releases.twoten.press.net/releases/date/1998/10/09/FILM-Titanic.html I found an old announcement from 9 October 1998: "Amsterdam, Holland February - March 1999 Paris, France - April/May 1999 Dusseldorf, Germany - June - July 1999 Milan, Italy - September - October 1999 Dates and cities may be subject to change." The city and date for Germany were already obviously changed. It was not in Duesseldorf from June to July. But April 16 to June 6 it was in Berlin, Germany, Messegelaende (Exhibition Grounds). Just over, sorry. There is a German homepage at http://www.deutsche-entertainment.de/concert-concept/titanic/index.html (and I was wondering why all the advertisement posters were removed from the subway walls...) Sorry I can't be of more help. Barbara Maren -- Barbara Maren Winkler barbara@math.tu-berlin.de snowfire@mail.snet.net[28,258]CSuX:climate and clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Climate and Clothing From: snowfire@mail.snet.net Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 09:33:29 -0400 -Poster: snowfire@mail.snet.net -Poster: Elysant The current hot snap in the N.E. and contemplating the heat of Pennsic in my garb has me wondering about the temperatures in centuries past (in Western Europe in particular). When one looks at the costumes of certain periods, some portray an obvious need for the people of the time to layer and bulk up with clothes, furs, and cloaks etc. Other times - like the regency period - there is much less clothing worn. I wonder if anyone has any resource materials they could point me towards on the climate through the years and how fashion was developed because of it? For example I know that the Middle Ages was supposed to have been a "Mini Ice Age" but don't know what dates that encompassed or any other details. I often feel seeing people in their t-shirts and shorts nowerdays (because of the warmer temps as well as more casual and functional trends) and think that they seem almost to be wandering around in their underwear if judged by the clothing standards of the past! The more intense fashions nowerdays seem relegated to air conditioned offices and the winter months! Elysant (Of course there is a milder climate overall in Britain (at least currently) than in the N.E. U.S.) franchesca havas [59,259]CSuX:climate and clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Climate and Clothing From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:39:10 -0500 -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" We just had a very hot event that ended with a vicious storm and flood. But that all aside. We also ran into the dilemma of how to keep our members and guest cool. One person brought up that the Elizabethans did a Greek Revival in art and dress. So the theme was Greek. We all made chitons and roman type garb and it was very cool garb indeed! Just needed more sunscreen... I wore a body stocking under my gossamer fabrics and even that was cool. You may want to look for revivals in period for your specific place and recreate that bit of art for your costume to keep cool. Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas -----Original Message----- From: snowfire@mail.snet.net To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 8:37 AM Subject: Re: H-COST: Climate and Clothing : :-Poster: snowfire@mail.snet.net : :-Poster: Elysant : :The current hot snap in the N.E. and contemplating the heat of Pennsic in my :garb has me wondering about the temperatures in centuries past (in Western :Europe in particular). : :When one looks at the costumes of certain periods, some portray an obvious :need for the people of the time to layer and bulk up with clothes, furs, and :cloaks etc. Other times - like the regency period - there is much less :clothing worn. I wonder if anyone has any resource materials they could :point me towards on the climate through the years and how fashion was :developed because of it? For example I know that the Middle Ages was :supposed to have been a "Mini Ice Age" but don't know what dates that :encompassed or any other details. : :I often feel seeing people in their t-shirts and shorts nowerdays (because :of the warmer temps as well as more casual and functional trends) and think :that they seem almost to be wandering around in their underwear if judged by :the clothing standards of the past! The more intense fashions nowerdays :seem relegated to air conditioned offices and the winter months! : :Elysant :(Of course there is a milder climate overall in Britain (at least currently) :than in the N.E. U.S.) : nancy santella [24,260]CSuX:looking for velvet Subject: H-COST: Looking for Velvet From: "Nancy Santella" Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:05:00 -0400 -Poster: "Nancy Santella" Hello all, I live in Pa., for those in the SCA, 10 min. from Pennsic. That is New Castle,Pa. I am looking for reasonably priced cotton velvet to make Houpelandes. I have one source at $11.00 a yard but am having trouble finding others to compare. I will definitely welcome any help. Thank you, Anna OftderTurm Life is a Party. Each day is a gift, to be opened with Anticipation, Joy and Thankfulness. sarah toney [46,261]CSuX:looking for velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Looking for Velvet From: Sarah Toney Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 08:47:02 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney Excuse my ignorance, but what is a Houpelandes? Sarah --- Nancy Santella wrote: > > -Poster: "Nancy Santella" > > > > Hello all, > > I live in Pa., for those in the SCA, 10 min. > from Pennsic. That is New > Castle,Pa. > I am looking for reasonably priced cotton > velvet to > make > Houpelandes. I have one source at $11.00 a yard but > am > having trouble > finding others to compare. I will definitely welcome > any > help. > > Thank you, > > Anna OftderTurm > > > Life is a Party. Each day is a gift, to be opened > with > Anticipation, Joy and Thankfulness. > > > majordomo@indra.com > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com merlyncc@aol.com[17,262]CSuX:faux chainmail (was joan of arc) Subject: H-COST: Faux Chainmail (was Joan of Arc) From: Merlyncc@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:14:22 EDT -Poster: Merlyncc@aol.com This is really an individual request, but I am hoping you can assist me. Something happened to my computer, and I didn't receive all my mail for several days. AOL marked some of the new mail as read mail, although I didn't see the postings, and now that I've discovered the problem, it says the messages are unaccessible. I am particularly interested in responses to my request for reasonable facsimiles of chainmail. There were two responses from "arianne", but the full e-mail address is cut off. Could you please ask her to repeat the information? Thank you for your help, Priscilla Schmitz hope h. dunlap [97,263]CSuX:cossack uniform accessories? Subject: H-COST: Cossack Uniform Accessories? From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 13:26:42 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" If you are a true Cossack, you don't need a costume. You will already have within you the correct attitude and code of ethics which make you the "Best of the Best." Learn these here: http://home1.gte.net/artiom/cossacks/coscamp.htm If you still want to dress up, fortunately you have an excellent Web source for Cossack everything at http://home1.gte.net/artiom/cossacks/kazaki.htm. Code of ethics, habits, heroic poetry, weapons, tactics, skills, and much more. It includes some large scale colored etchings from the 19th Century of different ranks of soldiers, and in different seasonal garb at http://home1.gte.net/artiom/uniforms.htm. Yes, and all the doo-dads shown in great detail. Cossacks were an identifiable ethnic group since the middle ages, so the costumes vary with the time period. If your time period is early 20 th Century, the Costumers Manifesto has a 1905 Neva Magazine page showing dress patterns for Russian women. Neva was the 1905 Russian equivalent of the Ladies Home Journal. http://www.costumes.org/pages/nevamag.htm Don't miss the Cossack songs at http://home1.gte.net/artiom/cossacks/kazpesni.htm. They download in a fraction of a minute and play on your computer. No sheet music unfortunately! But they will certainly get you in the mood. The Costume Museum in St. Petersburg is a great source of ethnic costume, and images can be found at http://www.costumes.org/pages/russcostlinks.htm. It shows Russian peasant jewelry and costume for men and women: http://www.costumes.org/pages/ethnogra.htm. Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Lola Lee -Poster: Lola Lee I have a good friend who belongs to a male chorus, and for an upcoming project he is having costumes created. Some of the costumes will be Cossack uniforms - the seamstress already has a copy of the Folkwear Patterns Cossack uniform, and recently they went to G Street Fabrics to select materials. The final outfits will be cotton or linen, lined with acetate (I guess because it's cheaper, and the costumes need to be comfortable). She's working on a prototype uniform to see how things look before starting on the real outfits. Now he is looking for swords, emblems, "the little hangy things that look like medals on the belt", cartridges, whatever that a Cossack would have when wearing the uniform. I guess these would need to be as authentic as possible, as this is a chorus that sings Russian, Ukrainian, Slavic music. He's referring to the article about Cossacks in the National Geographic issue that was published late last year as a guide for locating similiar items. If these can be obtained, or borrowed, from somebody in the Washington DC metro area, all the better. Thanks! Lola - mailto:lola@his.com Gospodi Pomilui | Lord Have Mercy | Get a Mac and a Palm! http://www.his.com/~lola/ljl.html | ICQ: 14914550 I'm in Bowie, MD, USA, halfway between DC and Annapolis. _____ majordomo@indra.com hope h. dunlap [69,264]CSuX:looking for velvet Subject: H-COST: Looking for Velvet From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 13:51:27 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Well, you might call Jo-Mar in Lansdale (610) 855-7162 and also in North Philly (area code 215) and get info on what they presently have in stock then. The Lansdale store is just off the main drag, From Route 202, go north on 63, cross tracks in Lansdale, go 1/2 mile, then Right at West Coast Video. Its one block off Route 63, tucked into the corner of a small center, hard to see until you're right there. Their selection is smaller than the North Philly store. The North Philly store is on "I" Street, two blocks south of Erie Avenue, just East of St. Christopher's Hospital for Children. It is an industrial neighborhood very busy with fabric shoppers. Jo-Mar is on sale about 50 % of the time, but cotton velvet might have only 6 colors at a time--good colors however, and absolutely top quality. $11/yard is a fair price for top quality. I've seen it $15 and as low at $8 at Jo-Mar. Remnants as low as $4/yard, but I would think a Houpelande would require more than a remnant. Call first regarding your specific needs. Also, 4th Street in Philadelphia starting about 6 blocks south of South Street is the "fabric district," and prices there in several shops are in almost all cases great, as low as 25% of retail in some cases. Check out Marmelsteins while you're there. It's for trimmings and buttons--not cheap, but outstanding stock. Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Nancy Santella -Poster: "Nancy Santella" Hello all, I live in Pa., for those in the SCA, 10 min. from Pennsic. That is New Castle,Pa. I am looking for reasonably priced cotton velvet to make Houpelandes. I have one source at $11.00 a yard but am having trouble finding others to compare. I will definitely welcome any help. Thank you, Anna OftderTurm Life is a Party. Each day is a gift, to be opened with Anticipation, Joy and Thankfulness. _____ majordomo@indra.com scott hulett [20,265]CSuX:mens waistcoat backs 1870s Subject: Re: H-COST: Mens waistcoat backs 1870s From: Scott Hulett Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 11:07:23 -0700 -Poster: Scott Hulett Mel and list, I've been frantically searching my html files for that image I took off ebay. I think my computer ate it. I've put out a search for the seller who lives in Napa. Hopefully, I'll find them in time to do some good. My appology, it was there two weeks ago. Sigh, time for a new pc. Thanks for your patience. cheers, jd Melanie Wilson wrote: > -Poster: Melanie Wilson > > THanks for all the information > > Mel franchesca havas [51,266]CSuX:climate and clothing Subject: Fw: H-COST: Climate and Clothing From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 13:03:29 -0500 -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" This if for the list. :) Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas -----Original Message----- From: Cindy Abel To: Franchesca Havas Date: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 12:37 PM Subject: Re: H-COST: Climate and Clothing Also it helps to be a peasant or lower-class personna. RenFaire nobility at our local always seems to be suffering in Western Iowa June heat and humidity. An Elizabethan farthingale could I suppose, be engineered with tiny battery-powered fans within and a few years ago I spotted an Elizabethan noblewoman with a bongrace affixed to her headdress to ward off the sun. Many, many carried fans and filled and refilled tankards strapped to a belt or girdle. Ours is held at a college campus and the student center is open for restrooms and to cool off. But the weather high for this weekend promises to be only about 80 which would be a near record low for this event. But of course it is supposed to rain Friday night. Western Europe was a few degrees colder on average from about 1500-1700 but the latest research says it wasn't a mini ice age. There was lots of freaky weather--same as now. The people then were tougher--no air conditioning or central heat. But then they weren't constantly traveling between home, car, work, car, shopping center, car, school, etc. And of course, existing portraits show people in their best and in natural fabrics. I'm writing this as I'm tied to my desk awaiting a faculty member's immenent(I hope) call-back and suffering in our work area where the air circulation is always inadequate all year and the room gets hotter as the day goes on. Outside is 90 with high humidity but it feels cooler out there because of a breeze. We are threatening to break out a couple of windows, but our director has promised fans soon (he has been pushing for years for a new heating cooling system because the present one has never worked right but until people start dropping over dead...). nancy santella [21,267]CSuX:velvet houpelande Subject: H-COST: velvet Houpelande From: "Nancy Santella" Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:48:07 -0400 -Poster: "Nancy Santella" The houpelande came into popular around 1375, it is a loose fitting dress with many variations including long flowing sleeves that tough the ground, often dagged. They were worn by both men and women. The hem, for men was anywhere from mid-thigh to floor length, for women they were floor length or longer. The neck line varied from deep v to high collars. Sleeves could be ballooned, tube or anglewings. I find the houpelande very comfortable, and fun to wear. My persona is a early 15 th century German woman. Hope this help you understand what a houpelande is. The green dress in Jan van Eyck's portrait " Marriage of Giovanni Arnolfini" is a good example of the houpelande. Anna OftderTurm Life is a Party. Each day is a gift, to be opened with Anticipation, Joy and Thankfulness. sarah toney [52,268]CSuX:velvet houpelande Subject: Re: H-COST: velvet Houpelande From: Sarah Toney Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 14:03:02 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney Cool! I own one and didn't know this word. ;-) I made one last year out of a very light yellow velvet... it actually drags about a foot and a half behind me (I'm very short). I found that I really like it, but can't wear it to our reenactments because I have to run too much and it gets caught. Thanks for the explanation! Sarah --- Nancy Santella wrote: > > -Poster: "Nancy Santella" > > > The houpelande came into popular around > 1375, it is a loose fitting > dress with many variations including long flowing > sleeves that tough the > ground, often dagged. They were worn by both men and > women. The hem, for men > was anywhere from mid-thigh to floor length, for > women they were floor > length or longer. The neck line varied from deep v > to high collars. Sleeves > could be ballooned, tube or anglewings. > I find the houpelande very comfortable, and > fun to wear. My persona > is a early 15 th century German woman. > Hope this help you understand what a > houpelande is. The green dress > in Jan van Eyck's portrait " Marriage of Giovanni > Arnolfini" is a good > example of the houpelande. > > > Anna OftderTurm > Life is a Party. Each day is a gift, to be opened > with > Anticipation, Joy and Thankfulness. > > > majordomo@indra.com > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com merouda the true of bornover [17,269]CSuX:velvet houpelande Subject: Re: H-COST: velvet Houpelande From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 14:02:32 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover Just one addition. The houppeland is typically belted; for women, under the bust, for men, at the waist. > The houpelande came into popular around 1375, it is a loose fitting > dress -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir tara stewart [37,270]CSuX:climate and clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Climate and Clothing From: "Tara Stewart" Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 17:07:20 -0500 -Poster: "Tara Stewart" I can't speculate about fashion, but wanted to answer your question regarding the "Mini-Ice Age." This took place between 1570-1730. It was an average change of 1/2 degree Celcius globally, yet forced many farmers to abandon their fields. Temperatures have slowly but steadily risen since 1850. Scientists aren't sure if this is really warming or extended recovery from the Mini-Ice Age. There's a nice article about climate and long-term change in the May, 1998 copy of National Geographic. Glad to have been able to contribute *something* instead of lurking all the time, Tara Stewart *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 6/9/99 at 9:33 AM snowfire@mail.snet.net wrote: >-Poster: snowfire@mail.snet.net > >-Poster: Elysant > >developed because of it? For example I know that the Middle Ages was >supposed to have been a "Mini Ice Age" but don't know what dates that >encompassed or any other details. >Elysant >(Of course there is a milder climate overall in Britain (at least currently) >than in the N.E. U.S.) tara stewart [28,271]CSuX:cossack uniform accessories? Subject: Re: H-COST: Cossack Uniform Accessories? From: "Tara Stewart" Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 17:10:14 -0500 -Poster: "Tara Stewart" The article about the Cossacks is in the November, 1998 issue of National Geographic. (I admit -- I collect the things...even have the CD version.) Good luck, Tara Stewart *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 6/8/99 at 11:59 PM David S. Mallinak wrote: >-Poster: "David S. Mallinak" > >Would please be so kind as to let me know what issue of National Geographic >the article is in. I am also interested in what assories for a Cossack >costume would need. > >David S Mallinak > charlene charette [15,272]CSuX:faux ermine Subject: H-COST: faux ermine From: Charlene Charette Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 18:32:44 -0500 -Poster: Charlene Charette I'm posting this query for a friend. She's looking for a source of reasonably-priced faux ermine. Barring that, suggestions on how to simulate the look are welcomed. Thanks, --Charlene -- Always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn. irene lenoir [18,273]CSuX:faux ermine Subject: Re: H-COST: faux ermine From: Irene leNoir Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 19:39:52 -0400 -Poster: Irene leNoir >I'm posting this query for a friend. She's looking for a source of >reasonably-priced faux ermine. Barring that, suggestions on how to >simulate the look are welcomed. I haven't actually tried it myself, but I hear this works: take white fake fur grab a small tuft of the fur and hold it away from the rest color the tip of said tuft with a black permanent marker repeat at regular intervals Jessica Clark http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica snowfire@mail.snet.net[35,274]CSuX:climate and clothing Subject: Re: H-COST: Climate and Clothing From: snowfire@mail.snet.net Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 20:11:40 -0400 -Poster: snowfire@mail.snet.net -Poster: Elysant Greetings Tara! Thank you for this, I had assumed for some reason that the colder period or "Mini Ice Age" was a hundred years or so before this. :-) >I can't speculate about fashion, but wanted to answer your question >regarding the "Mini-Ice Age." This took place between 1570-1730. It was >an average change of 1/2 degree Celcius globally, yet forced many farmers >to abandon their fields. Temperatures have slowly but steadily risen since >1850. Scientists aren't sure if this is really warming or extended >recovery from the Mini-Ice Age. I had seen something on the last big Ice Ages (Wurm, Winsconsin) where the temps fluctuated up and down quite a bit at the end of it. Perhaps it's just a natural vacillation of the earth, that causes all of these temperature trends then (as well as the ozone etc). Interesting. >There's a nice article about climate and long-term change in the May, 1998 >copy of National Geographic. I'll certainly look for this! >Glad to have been able to contribute *something* instead of lurking all the >time, Glad you did! Elysant franchesca havas [43,275]CSuX:anst - chain mail Subject: H-COST: Fw: ANST - Fwd: chain mail From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 21:20:40 -0500 -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" I cannot remember who ask for the fake chain/chain wire cloth but here is a lead. Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas -----Original Message----- From: Krzysztof Kopernik To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG Date: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 9:06 PM Subject: ANST - Fwd: chain mail :I received this to my vscribe@ansteorra.org address and thought maybe someone :might be interested. :Krzysztof : :> :> From: "Mysticz" :> To: :> Subject: chain mail :> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 17:48:13 -0500 :> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 :> :> I am part of a company that sells wire cloth and wire. my boss is looking to :> expand beyond the confines that he is in. do you know of any orgizations or :> people that make or would like to make their own chain mail and would like :> the wire. Our prices vary from $2-8 a pound. with a 5 pound min. please :> e-mail me back with any info. I also have samples for those who are :> interested......rikki : : : arianne de dragonnid mka grace payne [33,276]CSuX:faux ermine Subject: Re: H-COST: faux ermine From: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" Date: Wed, 09 Jun 99 23:41:56 -Poster: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" Charlene Charette wrote: >I'm posting this query for a friend. She's looking for a source of >reasonably-priced faux ermine. Barring that, suggestions on how to >simulate the look are welcomed. ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Good lady, I have no idea where to find faux ermine if it isn't in the faux furs area of her local fabric and crafts store. However, since ermine is the one with a black pattern of three dots near the top of a vertical line (one at the top and the other two a short distance down the line, one on each side) on a background of white fur, it would be a relatively simple design to print or paint on a piece of nice white fur (the smooth stuff, not the fur that looks like a sheepskin). I think the line is about a palm-length long and as wide as a pinkie, and the dots that size as well. When I've seen it done, the patterns were about 6-8 inches away from each other. It looked fabulous, and I know it was painted. Yours in the Dream, Arianne de Dragonnid Shire of Castlemere, Kingdom of Trimaris %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% "The founder of my noble line was wont to see Dragons. His Lady rode out from the forest in a gown of samite and was as young on the day he died as on their wedding day." %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% pierre & sandy pettinger [56,277]CSuX:heat, cossacks Subject: H-COST: Re: Heat, Cossacks From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 00:11:47 -0500 -Poster: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger that Cindy talks about. Yes, it's hot and humid (when it's not raining). Since at that time there was no restriction on where your persona came from, we did an Arabic trader's tent - lots of gauzy cotton robes, veils, etc. Cool, comfortable, washable, and since styles haven't changed much in the intervening years.... One other poster talked about the storm at their Faire - one year this Faire had to close early on a Friday night, and we all spent about 2 hours in the basement of one of the college buildings, while a tornado went through the area. It touched down a couple of miles away, and many tents were flattened. One jewelry merchant had most of his stock blown away because he didn't have time to pack it. >- -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" > >We just had a very hot event that ended with a vicious storm and flood. But >that all aside. We also ran into the dilemma of how to keep our members and >guest cool. One person brought up that the Elizabethans did a Greek Revival >in art and dress. So the theme was Greek. We all made chitons and roman type >garb and it was very cool garb indeed! Just needed more sunscreen... > >- -----Original Message----- >From: Cindy Abel > >Also it helps to be a peasant or lower-class personna. RenFaire >nobility at our local always seems to be suffering in Western Iowa >June heat and humidity. >An Elizabethan farthingale could I suppose, be engineered with tiny >battery-powered fans within and a few years ago I spotted an >Elizabethan noblewoman with a bongrace affixed to her headdress to >ward off the sun. Many, many carried fans and filled and refilled >tankards strapped to a belt or girdle. >Ours is held at a college campus and the student center is open for >restrooms and to cool off. But the weather high for this weekend >promises to be only about 80 which would be a near record low for >this event. But of course it is supposed to rain Friday night. > the Nicholas and Alexandra exhibit in Delaware in February, and they had several original uniforms on display. They were the same in almost every detail. Also, be warned - the coat pocket arrangement in this pattern is very strange, and the construction is not straightforward. There is also no way to press the seams at one point, following the directions. Perhaps making a sample of the back area where the pockets and pleats are would be helpful. Just a suggestion. YMMV. Sandy >- -Poster: Lola Lee >Cossack uniforms - the seamstress already has a copy of the >Folkwear Patterns Cossack uniform--- > genevieve de courtanvaux [46,278]CSuX:faux ermine Subject: Re: H-COST: faux ermine From: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 01:22:24 -0500 -Poster: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" It is my understanding that real ermine fur does not look like the "three dots near the top of a vertical line". That is one of the many types of hearldic representations of ermine fur that is described below. Real ermine fur will be solid white with small tail sticking out that are also white but have black tips. Carol Ross >Good lady, > >I have no idea where to find faux ermine if it isn't in the faux furs area of her local fabric and crafts store. >However, since ermine is the one with a black pattern of three dots near the top of a vertical line (one at the >top and the other two a short distance down the line, one on each side) on a background of white fur, it >would be a relatively simple design to print or paint on a piece of nice white fur (the smooth stuff, not the fur >that looks like a sheepskin). I think the line is about a palm-length long and as wide as a pinkie, and the dots >that size as well. When I've seen it done, the patterns were about 6-8 inches away from each other. It >looked fabulous, and I know it was painted. > > >Yours in the Dream, > Arianne de Dragonnid > >Shire of Castlemere, Kingdom of Trimaris > >%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% > >"The founder of my noble line was wont to see Dragons. His Lady rode out from the forest >in a gown of samite and was as young on the day he died as on their wedding day." > >%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% > > charlene charette [25,279]CSuX:faux ermine Subject: Re: H-COST: faux ermine From: Charlene Charette Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 02:02:27 -0500 -Poster: Charlene Charette Genevieve de Courtanvaux wrote: > It is my understanding that real ermine fur does not look like the "three > dots near the top of a vertical line". That is one of the many types of > hearldic representations of ermine fur that is described below. Real ermine > fur will be solid white with small tail sticking out that are also white but > have black tips. > Carol Ross Correct. She's tried a couple methods for making it. The painted methods don't provide the right "wiggle" (for lack of a better word). She tried using tufts of various different embroidery fibers, but none of them seemed to hang correctly. It could be there's a trick to it of which she's unaware. Thanks, --Charlene -- Always remember to pillage BEFORE you burn. dietmar [51,280]CSuX:faux ermine Subject: H-COST: Re: faux ermine From: Dietmar Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 01:33:36 +0000 -Poster: Dietmar Greetings, Concerning fake ermine... Arianne wrote: > However, since ermine is the one with a black pattern of three > dots near the top of a vertical line (one at the top and the > other two a short distance down the line, one on each side) on > a background of white fur, it would be a relatively simple design > to print or paint on a piece of nice white fur That's a heraldic representation of ermine, not the real fur. Ermine is the winter coat of a weasel. The black dots represent the tail. In reality, the skins are only 7"-10" long and the tail is about half that. The tails would swing free from the cloth. > I think the line is about a palm-length long and as wide as a > pinkie, and the dots that size as well. When I've seen it done, > the patterns were about 6-8 inches away from each other. It > looked fabulous, and I know it was painted. My hands are going to be larger than yours, but that sounds rather large. But there should only be one dot per tail. Charlene added: >> She's tried a couple methods for making it. The painted methods >> don't provide the right "wiggle" (for lack of a better word). >> She tried using tufts of various different embroidery fibers, >> but none of them seemed to hang correctly. It could be there's >> a trick to it of which she's unaware. It would be awfully time consuming (everything worthwhile is, right?) but if I were to try it, I'd take strips of white fur 1" wide and make neat little tubes that look like tails. Cut them into small strips about 4" long and dip the last 1/2" of one end into a black dye, and you're on the right track. Then stitch the undyed end of each little tube down to more white fur at regular intervals. Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." connie carroll [18,281]CSuX:o.t.; "sir" oliver reed Subject: Re: H-COST: O.T.; "Sir" Oliver Reed From: "Connie Carroll" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 04:58:57 +0000 -Poster: "Connie Carroll" I also haven't been able to find anything on his knighting, not that I don't think he didn't deserve to be. Kassandra NickKraken > > -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" > > Just for the record, the late Mr.Reed had not been knighted as far > as I'm aware! BTW, "Women in Love" was fillmed partly at Elvaston > Castle, a house a few miles from here whose grounds are now open to > the public. JUST CALL ME MISTRESS BUNNY connie carroll [21,282]CSuX:sir oliver reed, Subject: Re: H-COST: Sir Oliver Reed, From: "Connie Carroll" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 05:01:07 +0000 -Poster: "Connie Carroll" As I said - he wasn't that old! Kassandra NickKraken > -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com > > In a message dated 6/7/99 4:49:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Connie.Bunny@worldnet.att.net writes: > > << I just found out on the Movie DateBase Site that he died last > month > from a heart attack. Shame as he wasn't that old >> > > He drank himself into a heat attack ...24 drinks that night. And he > was 60 something. JUST CALL ME MISTRESS BUNNY abbott, ruth [23,283]CSuX:faux ermine Subject: H-COST: RE: faux ermine From: "Abbott, Ruth" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:06:06 -0500 -Poster: "Abbott, Ruth" > I'm posting this query for a friend. She's looking for a source of > reasonably-priced faux ermine. Barring that, suggestions on how to > simulate the look are welcomed. > > Thanks, > - --Charlene Charlene, this may sound silly, but suggest to her to use real ermine. Your question led me to wonder how much a real pelt would cost, thinking it would be expensive. I checked Moscow Hide and Fur (http://www.hideandfur.com) and they aren't actually that much. A quick look showed them ranging from $22 for good complete pelts, down to less than $5 for damaged pelts. I realize that they are small, and several pelts would be needed even if you only wanted to trim a neckline. But, if it's for trim you need to cut it up anyway, so the damaged pelts would probably be OK. If that was still too much, you could use the real ermine for part of it, and maybe altered white rabbit for the hem (depending on exactly what she was going to do with it). That way you'd have all real fur (!) and the ermine can be used as a pattern to alter the rabbit to match. drgurley@aol.com[17,284]CSuX:climate and clothing Subject: Re: Fw: H-COST: Climate and Clothing From: DRGurley@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:16:40 EDT -Poster: DRGurley@aol.com In a message dated 6/9/99 1:07:55 PM Central Daylight Time, ches@io.com writes: > Also it helps to be a peasant or lower-class personna. RenFaire > nobility at our local always seems to be suffering in Western Iowa > June heat and humidity. Cindy A: Am I correct in that you are referring to Council Bluffs? If so, in what capacity are participating? My hubby & I will be arriving for my 2nd and his 8th year there this weekend. DaniG jessica wilbur [40,285]CSuX:faux ermine Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: faux ermine From: "Jessica Wilbur" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:22:01 -0400 -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > > -Poster: "Abbott, Ruth" > > > I'm posting this query for a friend. She's looking for a source of > > reasonably-priced faux ermine. Barring that, suggestions on how to > > simulate the look are welcomed. > > > > Thanks, > > - --Charlene > > Charlene, this may sound silly, but suggest to her to use real ermine. Your > question led me to wonder how much a real pelt would cost, thinking it would > be expensive. I checked Moscow Hide and Fur (http://www.hideandfur.com) and > they aren't actually that much. A quick look showed them ranging from $22 > for good complete pelts, down to less than $5 for damaged pelts. I realize > that they are small, and several pelts would be needed even if you only > wanted to trim a neckline. But, if it's for trim you need to cut it up > anyway, so the damaged pelts would probably be OK. If that was still too > much, you could use the real ermine for part of it, and maybe altered white > rabbit for the hem (depending on exactly what she was going to do with it). > That way you'd have all real fur (!) and the ermine can be used as a pattern > to alter the rabbit to match. A couple of years ago, my grandmother, who is in the wonderful habit of passing along family heirlooms to the grandkids, gave me a velvet evening jacket that she had worn in the 1930s. It had a number of ermine tails attached to the collar, and I nearly had heart failure when she suggested that I could cut the tails off and use them for my medieval garb! This, of course, is the woman who cut up her white leather wedding gloves to make shoes for dolls! Needless to say, the jacket is wrapped in acid-free tissue paper and stored carefully at my parents' house. Anyway, not sure what my point was. Just thought I'd share, I guess! --Jessica nancy santella [14,286]CSuX:faux ermine Subject: H-COST: faux ermine From: "Nancy Santella" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:30:14 -0400 -Poster: "Nancy Santella" What about instead of floss, a thick (chenille) type yarn, attached in short pieces. With the ends made black in some way, either marker, paint, or dye. If it works I might try it myself. Anna Life is a Party. Each day is a gift, to be opened with Anticipation, Joy and Thankfulness. tigershado@aol.com[14,287]CSuX:faux ermine Subject: H-COST: RE: faux ermine From: Tigershado@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:43:22 EDT -Poster: Tigershado@aol.com In a message dated 6/10/99 9:03:14 AM Central Daylight Time, r-abbott@oar-xch1.oar.uiuc.edu writes: > http://www.hideandfur.com They also sell just the tails for $3-$4.50. Maybe white rabbit or a good white faux fur with the real ermine tails? Barbara Corley Tigershado@aol.com gaelscot@aol.com[25,288]CSuX:fake ermine Subject: H-COST: fake ermine From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:54:19 EDT -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com Real ermine fur is pretty similar to rabbit, but with shorter hairs. The tufts are actually the ermine's tails, which look kind of like -- well -- hmmm. Not like rabbit tails. Kind of like chipmunk tails? They are black at the tips. If I were going to make fake ermine trim for a cloak collar, I would buy rabbit skins (not politically correct, but that's what I'd do). I'd cut some of them up, roll them up into "tails," dip the ends in paint or dye. Then I'd make slits in the big fur pieces, stick the tails through, and sew them on the back. I have never seen this done, but that's what I'd try. If it was for something smaller in diameter but longer -- like the edge of a sideless surcote -- I'd probably just use fake white fur and draw spots. You might try something similar with fake fur, but I don't think it would look the same. Gail Finke cs23001@maine.maine.edu (lisa a. tyson)[26,289]CSuX:fabric sources in maine Subject: H-COST: Re: Fabric Sources in Maine From: CS23001@MAINE.maine.edu (Lisa A. Tyson) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 99 16:09:40 EDT -Poster: CS23001@MAINE.maine.edu (Lisa A. Tyson) Franchesca Havas (ches@io.com) wrote: > I have a friend who lives in Maine and wants to know of > any fabric places around. I think she is willing to travel > a bit to find it. She was amused when "The" fabric place > that is the best around is Jo Ann's. :) Dear Franchesca, Perhaps I can help depending on where in Maine your friend lives (it's a BIG state). I'm located in the central part of the state near Bangor. I've had good luck at Mardens in Brewer, Maine. Mardens is a 'surplus and salvage' chain of family owned stores in our state. The family member who purchases fabrics for the stores usually gets some very nice fabrics that satisfy the quilters to the costumers. Jo Ann's is the largest fabric store chain in my area and really isn't that bad. The staff are polite and if you keep a keen eye on the sales cycles and bargain area, you can get some nice fabrics (depending on what you wish to work with). We can talk via private email if you like. brad wilson [9,290]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: "Brad Wilson" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 17:07:33 -0400 -Poster: "Brad Wilson" Does anyone have a copy of the article that had the Elizabethan/Jacobian shirts/smocks ?? Brad Wilson carol j. bell cannon [27,291]CSuX:faux ermine Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: faux ermine From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:08:50 -0700 -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 11:22 AM 6/10/99, "Jessica Wilbur" wrote: >A couple of years ago, my grandmother, who is in the wonderful habit of passing along >family heirlooms to the grandkids, gave me a velvet evening jacket that she had worn in the >1930s. It had a number of ermine tails attached to the collar, and I nearly had heart failure >when she suggested that I could cut the tails off and use them for my medieval garb! This, >of course, is the woman who cut up her white leather wedding gloves to make shoes for >dolls! Needless to say, the jacket is wrapped in acid-free tissue paper and stored carefully >at my parents' house. Anyway, not sure what my point was. Just thought I'd share, I guess! >--Jessica I'd say your grandmother is a practical woman. If it isn't going to be used as is, find another way to use it. She loves you, or she wouldn't have given it to you. However, she may feel hurt if you don't use it, too. If I were you, I'd have a heart-to-heart with her and find out. Keep in mind, too: Recycling things has been, until very recently, an honorable way of continuing the useful life of things that might otherwise have been thrown away. Gra/inne / Carol merouda the true of bornover [17,292]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:21:09 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover I don't but I covet this too. I would love to be a recipient of the article. Cynthia > Does anyone have a copy of the article that had the Elizabethan/Jacobian > shirts/smocks ?? -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir franchesca havas [27,293]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:33:37 -0500 -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" I do. What do you need? Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas -----Original Message----- From: Brad Wilson To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 4:08 PM Subject: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article : :-Poster: "Brad Wilson" : :Does anyone have a copy of the article that had the Elizabethan/Jacobian :shirts/smocks ?? : :Brad Wilson : : jessica wilbur [40,294]CSuX:faux ermine Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: faux ermine From: "Jessica Wilbur" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 17:35:38 -0400 -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > > -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" > > At 11:22 AM 6/10/99, "Jessica Wilbur" wrote: > >A couple of years ago, my grandmother, who is in the wonderful habit of > passing along > >family heirlooms to the grandkids, gave me a velvet evening jacket that > she had worn in the > >1930s. It had a number of ermine tails attached to the collar, and I > nearly had heart failure > >when she suggested that I could cut the tails off and use them for my > medieval garb! This, > >of course, is the woman who cut up her white leather wedding gloves to > make shoes for > >dolls! Needless to say, the jacket is wrapped in acid-free tissue paper > and stored carefully > >at my parents' house. Anyway, not sure what my point was. Just thought > I'd share, I guess! > >--Jessica > I'd say your grandmother is a practical woman. If it isn't going > to be used as is, find another way to use it. She loves you, or she > wouldn't have given it to you. However, she may feel hurt if you don't use > it, too. If I were you, I'd have a heart-to-heart with her and find out. > Keep in mind, too: Recycling things has been, until very recently, an > honorable way of continuing the useful life of things that might otherwise > have been thrown away. Gra/inne / Carol Oh! Goodness. Thanks for your concern, but she's definitely not the type to have her feelings hurt if I don't take a suggestion. She certainly is practical, but she does understand keeping something intact for sentimental reasons. She likes to re-use parts of old things to make new ones, but I'm certain she won't be upset if I don't as well. I think she'd be thrilled if I still had her jacket to pass along to my grandchildren someday. =) --Jessica lynn downward [33,295]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: Lynn Downward Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:15:04 -0800 -Poster: Lynn Downward I don't know what he needs, but we all seem to want to read it. Would it be possible to scan onto the list? Or copy and send out for a charge? I don't know how big this article is; I could be unrealistic in my hopes. LynnD >-Poster: "Franchesca Havas" > >I do. What do you need? > >Sincerely, >F. Havas >Dallas, Texas > >-----Original Message----- >From: Brad Wilson >To: h-costume@indra.com >Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 4:08 PM >Subject: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article > > >: >:-Poster: "Brad Wilson" >: >:Does anyone have a copy of the article that had the Elizabethan/Jacobian >:shirts/smocks ?? >: >:Brad Wilson >: pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[17,296]CSuX:ermine possibilities Subject: H-COST: ermine possibilities From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 18:58:47 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> In the 17 c they used "powdered miniver" as a substitute for ermine, which is squirrel. The skin is slit up the back bone, so that you can get the largest possible expanse of white from the belly. There's plenty of potentially miniver running around my yard. Deborah s.b. mcdaniel [18,297]CSuX:"sir" oliver reed Subject: H-COST: Re: "Sir" Oliver Reed From: "S.B. McDaniel" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:06:28 +0000 -Poster: "S.B. McDaniel" On the question of knighthoods, I think maybe the Late, Great, Oliver Reed is once again being confused with his uncle, film director, Sir Carol Reed. Mr. Reed certainly did fill his heyday's costumes nicely. I recall seeing "The Devils", in which Vanessa Redgrave as a French nun, says of Oliver Reed as a priest, "Now THERES a man worth goin' to hell for!" Sandy > I also haven't been able to find anything on his knighting, not that > I don't think he didn't deserve to be. > > Kassandra NickKraken brad wilson [62,298]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: "Brad Wilson" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:05:57 -0400 -Poster: "Brad Wilson" >I do. What do you need? Just a copy of the article. I am looking to create some shirts to go with a doublet, and since there isn't (as far as I know) a Part 2 to her Patterns of Fashion, 1560-1620 that was the Shirt/Smock book promised in the back of it, this is as close as I can get (please correct me if I am wrong). I do have a scanner and could scan in the articles and send them to anyone who needs them, or make them available for download off of my SCA website. Maybe these articles bby her if anyone has them... "Smocks, shirts, falling bands and mantuas", a paper on evidence of early ready-to-wear clothing, Per Una Storia della Moda Pronta: problemi e richerche Atti del V Convegno Internazionale del CISST, Milano, 26-28 Febbrario 1990, Florence, 1991, pp 17 - 27. "A silver tissue dress c 1660, from the Museum of Costume, Bath" in Costume.(the journal of the Costume Society), London (first series), #2, 1966. "Three examples of late sixteenth and early seventeenth century neckwear", in Waffen-und Kostumkunde, Munich, vol. 15, part 2, 1973, pp 109 - 124. "Reminiscences of a Court Dressmaker" in Costume, London, #8, 1974, pp 22 - 25. "Decorative features: pinking, snipping and slashing" in Costume, London, #9, 1975, pp 22 - 26. "An Edinburgh tailor's story" in Costume, London, #10, 1976, pp 74 - 85 "Elizabethan and Jacobean smocks and shirts" in Waffen-und Kostumkunde, Munich, vol. 19, part 2, 1977, pp 89 - 110. "Nils Sture's suit", Costume, London, #12, 1978, pp 13 - 26. "Two Early Seventeenth Century Fencing Doublets" in Waffen-und Kostumkunde, Munich, vol. 21, part 2, 1979, pp 107 - 120. "A Woman's Doublet of about 1585" in Waffen-und Kostumkunde, Munich, vol. 23, part 2, 1981, pp 132 - 142. "The Jupon, or coat-armor, of the Black Prince in Canterbury Cathedral" in Church Monuments, the Journal of the Church Monument Society, VIII, 1993, pp 12 - 24. "Costumes for masques and other entertainments c. 1500 - 1640" in Historical Dance, the journal of the Dolmetsch Historical Dance Society, 3, no. 2, 1993, pp 3-20. "An innovative method for mounting the sixteenth century doublet and trunkhose worn by Don Garzia de'Medici" with Mary Westerman Bulgarella, in Costume], London, #30, 1996, pp 47 - 55. Brad Wilson Carrollton, GA lavolta press [43,299]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: Lavolta Press Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:09:28 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press > > > I don't know what he needs, but we all seem to want to read it. Would it > be possible to scan onto the list? Or copy and send out for a charge? I > don't know how big this article is; I could be unrealistic in my hopes. > LynnD If I recall the article was published in the 1970s, so is still covered by modern copyright. Thus it is, in fact, illegal to publish it (even by photocopying) without the permission of the copyright owner. Even though Arnold is dead, modern copyright coverage continues for decades after the author's death. We've been through this discussion on the list before . . . No, if it is the whole article rather than a small quote it is not "fair use." No, it is not OK to pirate the article just because you want to learn from it. If this were legal it would be legal to pirate any nonfiction work, since most are designed to educate in one way or another. Yes, such reprinting would damage the value of future works, since (at least according to rumor) the book on shirts and smocks Arnold was unable to finish will be published after her death. Probably the patterns in the article would be included in this book. The copyright to the book, and the revenues from it, would probably be shared by her heirs and the author or editor who finishes the book, depending on the contract they worked out between them. Why should the people who can't wait for the book, and want to read the article, not borrow it from a library? With interlibrary loan you can get practically anything. Fran Grimble --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm margo anderson [14,300]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:24:47 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson I., too, would like a copy of this article. I think quite a few of us would. Is it a copyright violation if the person who has a copy makes multiple copies and distributes them to her Internet friends? If so, can the article be purchased through proper channels? Yes, I know about ILL, but our library limits the number of loans per year and I'm hoarding my chances. Margo margo anderson [13,301]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:30:11 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson Thanks to Fran for her explanation of the legal status of the article. It's not what I hoped to hear, but it is what I expected... Okay, I'll use ILL to get a copy. In the meantime, is there someone out there with a copy who'd like to fill us in on the gist of the article? I've been hearing about it for years, but I've never heard what she actually said. Margo r.l. shep [51,302]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:29:21 -0700 -Poster: "R.L. Shep" Pay attention to copyright laws......please. You don't have the *rights* to that. ~!~ R.L.Shep http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks ---------- >From: Lynn Downward >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article >Date: Thu, Jun 10, 1999, 4:15 PM > > >-Poster: Lynn Downward > >I don't know what he needs, but we all seem to want to read it. Would it >be possible to scan onto the list? Or copy and send out for a charge? I >don't know how big this article is; I could be unrealistic in my hopes. >LynnD > > >>-Poster: "Franchesca Havas" >> >>I do. What do you need? >> >>Sincerely, >>F. Havas >>Dallas, Texas >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Brad Wilson >>To: h-costume@indra.com >>Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 4:08 PM >>Subject: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article >> >> >>: >>:-Poster: "Brad Wilson" >>: >>:Does anyone have a copy of the article that had the Elizabethan/Jacobian >>:shirts/smocks ?? >>: >>:Brad Wilson >>: > merouda the true of bornover [21,303]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:34:35 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > If I recall the article was published in the 1970s, so is still covered by > modern copyright. Thus it is, in fact, illegal to publish it (even by > photocopying) without the permission of the copyright owner. I thought persons taking one copy for scholarly use was legal. Just don't publish to the list. Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir franchesca havas [31,304]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 18:41:58 -0500 -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" This is free at your local library. They do not do a loan of the mag, they just send a copy of the article and the library gives it to you because it is useless for them to keep in on file. I got it from the Collin County Library system, kind of a po-dunk place, but they were able to get it, and other articles by her, for me. Your libraries will also do the same. I was hoping that you had a specific question about the article that I could answer. Sorry. :( Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas -----Original Message----- From: Lavolta Press To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 6:19 PM Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article : :-Poster: Lavolta Press : :> :> :> I don't know what he needs, but we all seem to want to read it. Would it lavolta press [46,305]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: Lavolta Press Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:38:49 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press Margo Anderson wrote: > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > I., too, would like a copy of this article. I think quite a few of us > would. Is it a copyright violation if the person who has a copy makes > multiple copies and distributes them to her Internet friends? If so, can > the article be purchased through proper channels? Yes, it is a copyright violation. This is essentially reprinting the work. It does not matter if the people who obtain the reprint are personal friends (or more likely, fellow mailing list members) or not. > > > Yes, I know about ILL, but our library limits the number of loans per year > and I'm hoarding my chances. > It's not legal to violate copyright just because it is inconvenient or expensive for you to obtain the original publication. Janet Arnold's American publisher or distributor or her currently available books is Quite Specific Media Group. It is likely, though I do not know for sure, that they would publish her forthcoming books and that they own some of her copyrights. Their web site address is: http://www.quitespecificmedia.com/ Fran Grimble --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm lavolta press [20,306]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: Lavolta Press Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:42:57 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press > I thought persons taking one copy for scholarly use was legal. Just don't publish > to the list. > Cynthia > It is not legal to reprint the work without permission, which is what anyone offering photocopies to everyone who asks would be doing. It is also not legal to do anything you want with a work just because you are learning from it. In a previous message I posted the web site address of Arnold's American publisher or distributor. They also have an email address on the site. Any requests for permission may be directed to them. If they do not own the rights being requested, they probably know who does. Fran Grimble franchesca havas [31,307]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:07:04 -0500 -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" Here are some leads for finding the article for your own library addition of the articles: http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/cost-contents.html http://user.aol.com/gerekr/arnold.html http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/smock-info.html http://www.northernlight.com/barnesandnoble/search.html Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas -----Original Message----- From: Lavolta Press To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 6:19 PM Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article : :-Poster: Lavolta Press :If I recall the article was published in the 1970s, so is still covered by :modern copyright. Thus it is, in fact, illegal to publish it (even by :photocopying) without the permission of the copyright owner. Even though :Arnold is dead, modern copyright coverage continues for decades after the :author's death. kat@grendal.rain.com[26,308]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:13:43 +0000 -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > > If I recall the article was published in the 1970s, so is still covered by > > modern copyright. Thus it is, in fact, illegal to publish it (even by > > photocopying) without the permission of the copyright owner. > > I thought persons taking one copy for scholarly use was legal. Just don't publish > to the list. I don't know if it is the same in America, but at the National Art Library they gave me a copy of the British copyright laws. They are more specific about copyright there, from what I can tell because you can't copy even one full article if it is under copyright. You can only do a percentage, even for scholarly use. Also, even though Janet is dead, her estate would be the one to hold the copyright (unless she had assigned it elsewhere.) (I believe, from what they said at Janet's memorial, that Santina Levey is her executrix.) Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! kat@grendal.rain.com[22,309]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:13:43 +0000 -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com Yes, such reprinting would damage the value > of future works, since (at least according to rumor) the book on shirts and > smocks Arnold was unable to finish will be published after her death. > Probably the patterns in the article would be included in this book. The > copyright to the book, and the revenues from it, would probably be shared by > her heirs and the author or editor who finishes the book, depending on the > contract they worked out between them. Even though Janet had not finished the book, there are plans in the works for the book to be published, according to what they told us at her memorial. (Although they anticipated that it would still have a couple more years of work before it was ready.) Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! susan carroll-clark [20,310]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 22:38:09 -0400 -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! >I thought persons taking one copy for scholarly use was legal. Just don't publish >to the list. It is--so long as it's one copy, and it's for your own work. Making multiples starts to get you into the copyright violation area--this is why many copyshops (like Kinko's) are so vigilant; they used to make up study packs of articles or excerpts from textbooks for professors to use in their classes. (These days, most universities have deals to arrange permission for their study packages.) Susan Carroll-Clark carol j. bell cannon [9,311]CSuX:round buttons made of cord Subject: H-COST: Fwd: Round buttons made of cord From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:10:31 -0700 -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Does anyone have directions for making these 'Oriental-style' buttons? Or have good suggestions as to what closures or styles of buttons to use for Mongolian attire? Someone I know needs to finish her outfit soon, but needs to know what to use that will suit. Many thanks! Carol carol j. bell cannon [13,312]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:40:15 -0700 -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 04:34 PM 6/10/99 -0700, you wrote: >-Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover >I thought persons taking one copy for scholarly use was legal. Just don't publish >to the list. >Cynthia To the best of my understanding, that is correct--with the proviso that it not be copied/redistributed/republished, esp. for monetary gain, but I'm not a copyright atty. I just work in a library. Carol / Gra/inne pierre & sandy pettinger [29,313]CSuX:h-costume-digest v4 #364 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #364 From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:57:04 -0500 -Poster: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger >We just had a very hot event that ended with a vicious storm and flood. But >that all aside. We also ran into the dilemma of how to keep our members and >guest cool. One person brought up that the Elizabethans did a Greek Revival >in art and dress. So the theme was Greek. We all made chitons and roman type >garb and it was very cool garb indeed! Just needed more sunscreen... > >I wore a body stocking under my gossamer fabrics and even that was cool. > >You may want to look for revivals in period for your specific place and >recreate that bit of art for your costume to keep cool. > >Sincerely, >F. Havas >Dallas, Texas Another thought. While Elizabethan is not our period, it should be remembered that an Elizabethan's idea of a Greek revival or recreating Greek garments would have little to no resemblance to the actual Greeks. I doubt any Elizabethan would expose any of their limbs. Ladies would not appear without proper corseting and so forth. In actuality, I doubt that an Elizabethan Greek revival costume would be any cooler than their everyday wear. Pierre genevieve de courtanvaux [78,314]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 22:55:21 -0500 -Poster: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" Oh Oh Oh Please make them available off of your website.....Thank you, Carol Ross -----Original Message----- From: Brad Wilson To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 6:10 PM Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article > >-Poster: "Brad Wilson" > >>I do. What do you need? > > >Just a copy of the article. I am looking to create some shirts to go with a >doublet, and since there isn't (as far as I know) a Part 2 to her Patterns >of Fashion, 1560-1620 that was the Shirt/Smock book promised in the back of >it, this is as close as I can get (please correct me if I am wrong). I do >have a scanner and could scan in the articles and send them to anyone who >needs them, or make them available for download off of my SCA website. > >Maybe these articles bby her if anyone has them... > >"Smocks, shirts, falling bands and mantuas", a paper on evidence of early >ready-to-wear clothing, Per Una Storia della Moda Pronta: problemi e >richerche Atti del V Convegno Internazionale del CISST, Milano, 26-28 >Febbrario 1990, Florence, 1991, pp 17 - 27. > >"A silver tissue dress c 1660, from the Museum of Costume, Bath" in >Costume.(the journal of the Costume Society), London (first series), #2, >1966. > >"Three examples of late sixteenth and early seventeenth century neckwear", >in Waffen-und Kostumkunde, Munich, vol. 15, part 2, 1973, pp 109 - 124. > >"Reminiscences of a Court Dressmaker" in Costume, London, #8, 1974, pp 22 - >25. > >"Decorative features: pinking, snipping and slashing" in Costume, London, >#9, 1975, pp 22 - 26. > >"An Edinburgh tailor's story" in Costume, London, #10, 1976, pp 74 - 85 > >"Elizabethan and Jacobean smocks and shirts" in Waffen-und Kostumkunde, >Munich, vol. 19, part 2, 1977, pp 89 - 110. > >"Nils Sture's suit", Costume, London, #12, 1978, pp 13 - 26. > >"Two Early Seventeenth Century Fencing Doublets" in Waffen-und Kostumkunde, >Munich, vol. 21, part 2, 1979, pp 107 - 120. > >"A Woman's Doublet of about 1585" in Waffen-und Kostumkunde, Munich, vol. >23, part 2, 1981, pp 132 - 142. > >"The Jupon, or coat-armor, of the Black Prince in Canterbury Cathedral" in >Church Monuments, the Journal of the Church Monument Society, VIII, 1993, pp >12 - 24. > >"Costumes for masques and other entertainments c. 1500 - 1640" in Historical >Dance, the journal of the Dolmetsch Historical Dance Society, 3, no. 2, >1993, pp 3-20. > >"An innovative method for mounting the sixteenth century doublet and >trunkhose worn by Don Garzia de'Medici" with Mary Westerman Bulgarella, in >Costume], London, #30, 1996, pp 47 - 55. > >Brad Wilson >Carrollton, GA > > sara j. davitt [74,315]CSuX:dye +silk paint for sale. Subject: H-COST: Dye +silk paint for sale. From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 01:06:14 -0500 (CDT) -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" Hi, So I'm moving soon, and came across some stuff, fabric paints, and dyes and a book, that I'd rather see put to good use, than hang out in a box. I figure since y'all are so cool, and into this stuff, I'd give you guys a shot at it before I pack it off to e-bay. Dylon Cold water dyes.. a WHOLE BIG BOX of it... each tin dyes 6-8 oz of fabric, and there are 53 tins of color and 12 tins of black. this is the number of tins per color: 4-Seagreen 1-lilac 2- dawn pink 2- moon blue 4-primrose yellow 4-tahiti rose (pink) 1-french navy 3- coral 2- tartan green 3-camelia (bright pink) 4-cafe-su-lait 3-nastutium(orange) 1-purple vine 3-radiant pink 2-mexican red 3-sahara sun 3-bahama blue 3-leaf green 4- bronze rose 1-ultra violet 3-mandarin 2-riviera blue 4-koala brown and 12 charcoal This is a big heavy display box, with a few packets of cold dye fix(baking soda in a package) and a whole bunch of instruction pamphlets. (will ship without box if desired. asking 70$ plus shipping =-=-=- I also found a Sennelier peintex basic kit of painting on fabric. (for use on all fabrics, and involves these techniques gutta resist, wash paint, salt, stenciling, silkscreening airbrushing. heat set, no solvents. there is a booklet entitled the grapevine updated by diane tuckman "the facinating techniques in fabric painting and dyeing" THe dye/paint colors are golden yellow, solferino (electric deep magenta) scarlet, turquiose blue, veridian, venetian red, peintex medium, a small bottle of waxless clear organic resist. and an empty bottle. each paint bottle has 60 ml of paint, and none appear to have been used. (or if so, very little) =-=-= "Contemporary Batik and TyeDye- methods, inspiration, dyes" by Dona Z. Meilach 400 photographs, 19 color plates. shows all the tools and techniques used to make stuff witht he two items above... looks very concise, and has alot of historical and tibal examples to show posibilities. asking $4.00 plus shipping Thanks! hope everyone is haveing a great summer! Sarahj **2Y's**UR**2Y's**UB**IC**UR**2Y's**4Me** holliday, rachel {disc~welwyn} [152,316]CSuX:words of wisdom Subject: H-COST: FW: Words of Wisdom From: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:14:14 +0200 -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Got sent this and thought I'd pass it on for a giggle. Roche Products Limited 40 Broadwater Road Welwyn Garden City Hertfordshire AL7 3AY > -----Original Message----- > From: MLE789@aol.com [SMTP:MLE789@aol.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 1999 4:47 AM > To: ElisaMD@aol.com; Jayna23@aol.com; Sneekygit@aol.com; > Alvin697@aol.com; Cahdmb8@aol.com; Romar96@aol.com; Luchiebab@aol.com; > kristinc@bu.edu > Subject: Words of Wisdom > > Once again, I am sending a forward but I really like this one. It's > sorta like Life's Little Instructions. No need to pass it on but just > read > it--it's cool. > > Love, > Emily :) > > > >>The following is a NEPALI GOOD LUCK TANTRA TOTEM > >>This tantra totem has been sent to you for good luck. It has been sent > >>around the world ten times so far. You will receive good luck within > four > >>days of relaying this tantra totem. Send copies to people you think need > >>good luck. Don't send money as fate has no price. > >> > >> > >>INSTRUCTIONS FOR LIFE > >>0. Eat much brown rice. > >>1. Give people more than they expect and do it cheerfully. > >>2. Memorize your favorite poem. > >>3. Don't believe all you hear, spend all you have, or sleep all you > want. > >>4. When you say, "I love you", mean it. > >>5. When you say, "I'm sorry", look the person in the eye. > >>6. Be engaged at least six months before you get married. > >>7. Believe in love at first sight. > >>8. Never laugh at anyone's dreams. > >>9. Love deeply and passionately. You might get hurt but it's the only > way > >>to live life completely. > >>10. In disagreements, fight fairly. No name calling. > >>11. Don't judge people by their relatives. > >>12. Talk slowly but think quickly. > >>13. When someone asks you a question you don't want to answer, smile and > >>ask,"Why do you want to know?" > >>14. Remember that great love and great achievements involve great risk. > >>15. Call your mum. > >>16. Say "bless you" when you hear someone sneeze. > >>17. When you lose, don't lose the lesson. > >>18. Remember the three R's:Respect for self; Respect for others; > >>Responsibility for all your actions. > >>19. Don't let a little dispute injure a great friendship. > >>20. When you realize you've made a mistake, take immediate steps to > correct > >>it. > >>21. Smile when picking up the phone. The caller will hear it in your > voice. > >>22. Marry a man/woman you love to talk to. As you get older, their > >>conversational skills will be as important as any other. > >>23. Spend some time alone. > >>24. Open your arms to change, but don't let go of your values. > >>25. Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer. > >>26. Read more books and watch less TV. > >>27. Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, > >>you'll get to enjoy it a second time. > >>28. Trust in God but lock your car. > >>29. A loving atmosphere in your home is so important. Do all you can to > >>create a tranquil harmonious home. > >>30. In disagreements with loved ones, deal with the current situation. > >>Don't bring up the past. > >>31. Read between the lines. > >>32. Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality. > >>33. Be gentle with the earth. > >>34. Pray. There's immeasurable power in it. > >>35. Never interrupt when you are being flattered. > >>36. Mind your own business. > >>37. Don't trust a man/woman who doesn't close his/her eyes when you > kiss. > >>38. Once a year, go someplace you've never been before. > >>39. If you make a lot of money, put it to use helping others while you > are > >>living. That is wealth's greatest satisfaction. > >>40. Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a stroke of > luck. > >>41. Learn the rules then break some. > >>42. Remember that the best relationship is one where your love for each > >>other is greater than your need for each other. > >>43. Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it. > >>44. Remember that your character is your destiny. > >>45. Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>Do not keep this message. The tantra totem must leave your hands in 96 > >>hours. Send copies and see what happens in four days. You will get a > very > >>pleasant surprise. This is true, even if you are not superstitious. > >> > >> > >>Now, here's the FUN part... > >>Send this to at least 5 people and your life will improve. > >>0-4 people: Your life will improve slightly. > >>5-9 people: Your life will improve to your liking. > >>9-14 people: You will have at least 5 surprises in the next 3 weeks. > >>15 and above: Your life will improve drastically and everything you ever > >>dreamed of will begin to take shape. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: > Received: from rly-yg04.mx.aol.com (rly-yg04.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.4]) > by > air-yg04.mail.aol.com (v59.34) with SMTP; Wed, 09 Jun 1999 15:51:44 -0400 > Received: from mail.gwi.net (mail.gwi.net [207.5.128.142]) by > rly-yg04.mx.aol.com (vx) with SMTP; Wed, 09 Jun 1999 15:51:29 -0400 > Received: from default.blazenetme.net (146-146.blazenetme.net > [207.5.146.146]) > by mail.gwi.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA09496; > Wed, 9 Jun 1999 15:51:29 -0400 (EDT) > Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 15:55:06 -0400 > Message-ID: <01BEB290.7179E040.sbmjr@blazenetme.net> > From: Bonny Courtney > To: "'jebflood@aol.com'" , > "'Karen2324@aol.com'" > , > "'mccaus6887@aol.com'" , > "'MLE789@aol.com'" , > "'Shorty 2385@aol.com'" > , > "'EJ40GO18@aol.com'" > Subject: FW: I like what is says > Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 15:55:04 -0400 > X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 > Encoding: 94 TEXT > lynnx@mc.net[12,317]CSuX:visit houppe-land Subject: H-COST: Visit Houppe-land From: lynnx@mc.net Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 03:09:21 -0700 -Poster: lynnx@mc.net If the person who asked what a houp was still has any questions... http://www.virtue.to/virtue/articles/circle_houp.html http://pip1.pipcom.com/~tempus/houpelande/welcome.html http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/rialto/Houppelande-art.html should help. Heather pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[36,318]CSuX:j. arnold again Subject: H-COST: J. Arnold again From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 08:34:12 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> As much as people want this article, it is quite true that what you're proposing to do violates Miss Arnold's (and now her estate's) copyright on her work. At the very least, it's very disrespectful of someone who did a great deal for anyone with an interest in early clothing. Making them available on your website is, by legal standards, publishing, and in violation of the copyright, just multiple xeroxes would be, or reprinting it in a periodical. <> All of the revenues from all of her work (future book sales included) will remain with her estate, which will be used to fund scholarships in her name, so again, it would hurt more people than you might think, including historians in the US. As Fran and others have pointed out, the articles are available via ILL. Two, and possibly three, more books will be published, including the one on shirts and shifts (which will come first), but it will be a couple of years. Deborah brad wilson [23,319]CSuX:j. arnold again Subject: Re: H-COST: J. Arnold again From: "Brad Wilson" Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 08:44:33 -0400 -Poster: "Brad Wilson" >As Fran and others have pointed out, the articles are available via ILL. Well, I will go that way and get them (guess where I am going after work!) >Two, and possibly three, more books will be published, including the one on >shirts and shifts (which will come first), but it will be a couple of >years. I do hope so. Thanks everyone for your suggestions and help, especially in the copyright area. I don't want to cause any problems for anyone, especially myself. I just saw an old post in the archives where someone was offering copies of the articles for the cost of postage, and I thought I would ask on here since the address that was listed e-mail wise wasn't any good. Brad lavolta press [56,320]CSuX:copyrights--was j. arnold (long) Subject: Re: H-COST: re: copyrights--was J. Arnold (long) From: Lavolta Press Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:42:07 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press > > To privately reproduce a document for private research is possible--but to distribute it over the internet would not be permissable (as you cannot ensure its "fair use" in that context). The support for this kind of reproduction is found in section 107 (USC Title 17): I believe the responsibility for "fair use" rests directly with the person distributing or using the material. Thus there are two "fair use" issues here. The first would be that of the person publishing or copying the work, over the Internet or elsewhere. If they do not own the rights or have permission, this is not fair use, regardless of how they think readers would use the material. However, you are right in saying that the person who publishes the work--even legally--is not responsible for controlling its fair use by others. > > > "the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright." "Fair use" is determined by a number of factors, which include not only the _purpose_ for which the work is used, but the _portion_ of the work used and the _number_ of people to whom it is distributed. Even in a classroom, it is not legal to copy any amount of material for any number of people. Furthermore, as far as I can tell, the law defines "educational use" as a teacher copying material for students, in the context of a formal school classroom. People do learn in many other situations, but the classroom is what the law seems to define as an "educational" setting. There are other issues in the legislative guidelines, such as "spontaneity" (the teacher decides to use the material so late in the course that there is no time to ask the copyright owner for permission). > > > That covers "fair use" (at least from the perspective of US law). Well, actually it doesn't, at least not in terms of how the law is interpreted, court precedents, etc. "Fair use" is a very complicated subject. For further information, there are a number of good books interpreting US copyright law. One is the _Copyright Handbook_, by Donald F. Johnston, published by R. R. Bowker. > As costumers, we all want to see costuming books in print. The only way this is going to happen is by buying the books and financially supporting the folk who try to make incomes off publishing these volumes, which admittedly is rather a special-interest kind of press. So support the industry! It's not just ethics--another criteria used to judge "fair use" is whether the use of the material is likely to damage its sales. >I do not have a problem with providing copies on personal request if I have reasonable >assurance of "fair use" (as I recently sent a fellow listserve member an out-of-print article s>he requested)--this does comply with the fair use clause, as quoted above. But (see above) your own copying for others is probably not "fair use," if it is done without the permission of the copyright owners. > > As for our own copyright infringment experience, we did not take legal action. Actually, the action would have had to have come from our publisher, anyways. That depends on what rights you sold to your publisher in the contract between you. If you sold them first serial rights only, for example, rather than all rights, you yourself could certainly sue someone for plagiarizing your work. Of course, I don't know the details of your contract. > We figured it wouldn't be worth the effort--or the potential nastiness to take action. Instead, we have made these people (who are competitors) eminently knowledgeable of our understanding that they copied our article. Oh--and we have enjoyed watching them eat a lot of crow, especially at professional meetings and the like (other colleagues recognized the article, too, so the word did get out)! > Good for you. Fran --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm firefly [25,321]CSuX:copyrights--was j. arnold (long) Subject: H-COST: re: copyrights--was J. Arnold (long) From: " Firefly" Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 06:32:38 -0700 -Poster: " Firefly" With profound respect and appreciation to fellow listserve members in the publishing field, I would like to point out that the assistance initially requested would fall under the "fair use" examption provision of Title 17 of the US Code. I have had occasion to consult legal counsel on copyrights (when a published article was plagirized). I do, however, want to specify how it would be legal (so that's why this email is so long). To privately reproduce a document for private research is possible--but to distribute it over the internet would not be permissable (as you cannot ensure its "fair use" in that context). The support for this kind of reproduction is found in section 107 (USC Title 17): "the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright." That covers "fair use" (at least from the perspective of US law). On the other hand, we must also consider deeper ethics beyond the letter of the law... As costumers, we all want to see costuming books in print. The only way this is going to happen is by buying the books and financially supporting the folk who try to make incomes off publishing these volumes, which admittedly is rather a special-interest kind of press. So support the industry! Living close as I do to the Library of Congress, I find myself making a compromise: if a volume is in print, I will buy it myself. If it is out of print, I will only copy the parts I need. I do not have a problem with providing copies on personal request if I have reasonable assurance of "fair use" (as I recently sent a fellow listserve member an out-of-print article she requested)--this does comply with the fair use clause, as quoted above. As for our own copyright infringment experience, we did not take legal action. Actually, the action would have had to have come from our publisher, anyways. We figured it wouldn't be worth the effort--or the potential nastiness to take action. Instead, we have made these people (who are competitors) eminently knowledgeable of our understanding that they copied our article. Oh--and we have enjoyed watching them eat a lot of crow, especially at professional meetings and the like (other colleagues recognized the article, too, so the word did get out)! --- Visit my homepage: http://pages.hotbot.com/travel/fire.fly HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com leif drews [62,322]CSuX:introduction Subject: H-COST: introduction From: leif drews Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:51:56 +0200 -Poster: leif drews Dear all! I dont know if it is the costum to this list to introduce yourself as a newbee, i joined the list yesterday eavening. Here is my representation: My name is Bjarne Drews. I am a man, 44 years old, i live in Copenhagen Denmark. I studyed at a school for Arts and Crafts in 4 years and graduated as a costume designer. It was in 1980. At the moment i do not have costuming for a living, it is hard to find a job in Denmark as we are so few inhabbitants and there are only few theaters. I earn my living in taking care of old senile people in my comunity. I keep on studying historical costuming and i spend a lot of money in buying books on the subject. I have travelled many places to look on historic costumes in museums. I have made elizabethan, early barok, late barok, early 18 th. century and mid 18 th. century, late 18th. century dress. I have also made regency dresses. My favourite period is the end of the 16th. and early 17th. century with the french farthingales. I have some costumes on exhibition at an old manorhouse called Selsoe in Denmark. In my sparetime i make costumes always. Now i am preparing to make a robe a l'anglaise. I make the embroidery for the overskirt and i make the lace real bobbin lace, a Chantilly silk lace for the sleaves and neck trimming. The fichu is also going to have handmade lace. Usually i work on a costume for several months because i make all the decoration myself. When i dont have to rush, i enjoy it very much. The costumes i make generally goes to some hairdressers, called "Akademy of Historical Hairstyles" they are recreating old hairstyles on models and have some shows arround. Lately they had a show at our National Museum in Copenhagen. I have had some knowledge in studying costume history for so many years and if i can help some of you other costume fans out there i will do my best to help with questions. The other way, i hope you can help me, if there is something that i need to know. I am looking forward to an exiting time with you all. My homepage is not finished, i expect it to be ready sunday eavening, then you can go there and se my work. Best regards Bjarne Drews -- Leif Drews Åboulevard 5, 3 th 1635 København V Bjarne Drews Åboulevard 5,3.th 1635 København V tlf. 35 37 13 70 lynn meyer [19,323]CSuX:cotton velvet Subject: H-COST: Re: Cotton Velvet From: Lynn Meyer Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:37:33 -0700 -Poster: Lynn Meyer > I am looking for reasonably priced cotton velvet to make >Houpelandes. I have one source at $11.00 a yard but am having trouble >finding others to compare. I will definitely welcome any help. I seem to remember hearing once that cotton velvet (or velveteen?) was closer in appearance to period (silk) velvet than the synthetic velvets (rayon I assume). But it's a very vague memory. Can anybody educate me on this? Thank you! Lynn ---- Lynn Meyer (Halima de la Lucha) 6hbn-sec <6hbn-sec@usarec.army.mil>[49,324]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: RE: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: 6hbn-sec <6hbn-sec@usarec.army.mil> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:59:50 -0600 (MDT) -Poster: 6hbn-sec <6hbn-sec@usarec.army.mil> > Why should the people who can't wait for the book, and want to read the article, not borrow it from a library? With interlibrary loan you can get practically anything. Fran Grimble Since this is an article in what appears to the non-academics, a very obscure publication, how can it be interlibrary loaned? I'm not disputing any of your copyright information, or suggesting copyright for such publications be ignored. I am asking how it is possible to legally obtain copies. I am not thoroughly conversant with Inter Library Loan policies, but I have been told by the Multnomah County Library here in Portland, Oregon, that they do not loan magazines and the like, and it is very difficult to get other libraries to loan them either. Occasionally they can bet Xeroxes of single articles, but it is a very hit or miss proposition. This is an ongoing problem. I read with interest Robin Netherton's messages about the Conference in Kalamazoo, and was disappointed (not surprised or angry) to learn that these very interesting presentations will probably not be available to most of the non-academics among us because they are awaiting publication somewhere(unless Robin and the others tell us where they are being published, and how to get them). So what solution do you suggest for times when the article exists, but unavailable? It is very frustrating to know that there is published information out there that I want to read, that I am willing to pay for, but cannot obtain because it is published in something like the Proceedings of the Lower-Slobovian Ethnic Purity and Hand Washing Society, publication If you know of a library where this or any other article in the Janet Arnold bibliography exists, and if they will xerox or loan it, I am sure all of us would be very grateful. --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm 6hbn-sec <6hbn-sec@usarec.army.mil>[23,325]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: RE: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: 6hbn-sec <6hbn-sec@usarec.army.mil> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:59:32 -0600 (MDT) -Poster: 6hbn-sec <6hbn-sec@usarec.army.mil> Wonderful! Do you have any idea what library they obtained it from? It seems to me it would make it easier for any who wanted it to point their Inter Library Loan people to a specific library than to simply throw their net out blindly and hope someone responded? Regina Romsey -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" This is free at your local library. They do not do a loan of the mag, they just send a copy of the article and the library gives it to you because it is useless for them to keep in on file. I got it from the Collin County Library system, kind of a po-dunk place, but they were able to get it, and lavolta press [64,326]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: Lavolta Press Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:44:46 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press > > > Since this is an article in what appears to the non-academics, a very > obscure publication, how can it be interlibrary loaned? I'm not disputing > any of your copyright information, or suggesting copyright for such > publications be ignored. I am asking how it is possible to legally obtain > copies. I am not thoroughly conversant with Inter Library Loan policies, > but I have been told by the Multnomah County Library here in Portland, > Oregon, that they do not loan magazines and the like, and it is very > difficult to get other libraries to loan them either. Occasionally they can > bet Xeroxes of single articles, but it is a very hit or miss proposition. > This is an ongoing problem. I have never been unable to get any publication I tried to interlibrary loan, including foreign journals containing Janet Arnold's articles, and including some very obscure and/or foreign publications. (I once borrowed a Polish museum exhibit catalog, for which the public library who got it for me told me there was exactly _one_ copy in a US library. Later I bought my own copy direct from the Polish museum, which was easier than I expected.) I usually borrow through a local public library, or through the library of a nearby state university. Re the university library: Any member of the public can obtain full library privileges from them, including borrowing and interlibrary loan, for a very reasonable fee--if I recall, $20 and it's good for a year. Other universities may have similar arrangements. IMO a university library is more likely to have and/or borrow obscure publications than a public library. What I'm getting at is, if one library can't or won't borrow what you want, try a different library, particularly a university library. In my experience, anything you want to borrow is in some library and can be borrowed from them somehow. If a publication, such as the journals of the American and British Costume Societies, often contains good articles on costume, I subscribe. Such organizations also are often able to sell you back issues. If you put an ad in their newsletter, some member may sell you used issues. Specialist used costume book dealers, such as Fred Struthers, also sometimes sell used academic journals with costume articles. It is also amazing what you can buy, particularly now that the Internet makes listings for used books and other publications so widely available. There is a metasearch engine for some of the bigger ones: http://www.bookfinder.com/ I've been able to buy many publications I had assumed would be unavailable. > Is very frustrating to know that there is published > information out there that I want to read, that I am willing to pay for, but > cannot obtain because it is published in something like the Proceedings of > the Lower-Slobovian Ethnic Purity and Hand Washing Society, publication > numbers: 14. > I suppose; although I honestly haven't run into this problem. As implied above, I try to stay conversant with where to buy costume publications, both new and used. Sure, it takes a little effort; but not really all that much. Fran Grimble franchesca havas [95,327]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 17:07:37 -0500 -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" As I posted before here are the places where you can find parts of the articles in question or leads in getting the whole thing. Here are some leads for finding the article for your own library addition of the articles: http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/cost-contents.html http://user.aol.com/gerekr/arnold.html http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/smock-info.html http://www.northernlight.com/barnesandnoble/search.htm Any library has the system where they can order a copy of an article from any magazine no matter how obscure. If you go in and say, "I need a copy of an article from this magazine" and provide them will all the information, name, date, page numbers, article title and author, (all of which can be found in one of the above links), they will get it for you most likely for free or for $1.00. Of all the articles listed in the Arnold.html URL above only one could not be found. And it is not in my period so I did not really care. It took all of one week to get these copies sent to my home. My total cost was the gas that got me to the library and the time to fill out the request. :) Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas -----Original Message----- From: 6hbn-sec <6hbn-sec@usarec.army.mil> To: 'h-costume@indra.com' Date: Friday, June 11, 1999 4:01 PM Subject: RE: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article : :-Poster: 6hbn-sec <6hbn-sec@usarec.army.mil> : : : :> :Why should the people who can't wait for the book, and want to read the :article, not borrow it from a library? With interlibrary loan you can get :practically anything. : :Fran Grimble : :Since this is an article in what appears to the non-academics, a very :obscure publication, how can it be interlibrary loaned? I'm not disputing :any of your copyright information, or suggesting copyright for such :publications be ignored. I am asking how it is possible to legally obtain :copies. I am not thoroughly conversant with Inter Library Loan policies, :but I have been told by the Multnomah County Library here in Portland, :Oregon, that they do not loan magazines and the like, and it is very :difficult to get other libraries to loan them either. Occasionally they can :bet Xeroxes of single articles, but it is a very hit or miss proposition. :This is an ongoing problem. I read with interest Robin Netherton's messages :about the Conference in Kalamazoo, and was disappointed (not surprised or :angry) to learn that these very interesting presentations will probably not :be available to most of the non-academics among us because they are awaiting :publication somewhere(unless Robin and the others tell us where they are :being published, and how to get them). : : So what solution do you suggest for times when the article exists, but :unavailable? It is very frustrating to know that there is published :information out there that I want to read, that I am willing to pay for, but :cannot obtain because it is published in something like the Proceedings of :the Lower-Slobovian Ethnic Purity and Hand Washing Society, publication :numbers: 14. : :If you know of a library where this or any other article in the Janet Arnold :bibliography exists, and if they will xerox or loan it, I am sure all of us :would be very grateful. : :--------------------------------------------- :Visit our web pages! :Books on historic costume and vintage clothes :http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm :Historic and vintage dance :http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm : : : : : : aleed [57,328]CSuX:greek revival, eliz style... Subject: Re: H-COST: Greek Revival, Eliz style... From: aleed Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 18:27:02 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: aleed There is an article by Janet arnold on "Elizabethan Masques" which might cover the greek revivalist style; the Tailor's Book from the Querini-Stampalia Library also has a number of drawings of "Theatrical" or masque costumes supposed to look like Greek gods, goddesses and heroes. I believe that reading up on masques and pageants during Elizabethan times would be the place to find the most info on the subject. I'm unsubscribing for a week--vacation time!--so if you have any questions, etc., please email me at aleed@dnaco.net if you want me to get them. Once I get back I'll look through my books on the subject and give some detailed descriptions of what I've got. Thanks, Drea On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, Franchesca Havas wrote: > > -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" > > Do you have documentation for the type of costume used in their Greek > revival? > > Sincerely, > F. Havas > Dallas, Texas > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger > To: h-costume-digest@indra.com > Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 10:22 PM > Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #364 > : > :Another thought. While Elizabethan is not our period, it should be > :remembered that an Elizabethan's idea of a Greek revival or recreating > :Greek garments would have little to no resemblance to the actual Greeks. I > :doubt any Elizabethan would expose any of their limbs. Ladies would not > :appear without proper corseting and so forth. In actuality, I doubt that > :an Elizabethan Greek revival costume would be any cooler than their > :everyday wear. > : > :Pierre > : > : > > pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[43,329]CSuX:ill Subject: H-COST: ILL From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 18:31:46 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) << It seems to me it would make it easier for any who wanted it to point their Inter Library Loan people to a specific library than to simply throw their net out blindly and hope someone responded?>> Very few public libraries, if any, simply "throw a net blindly" in order to do an interlibrary loan search. Most go through specific channels, often organized by regional or state libraries. Telling your librarian where a periodical is held *may* help, but then again, it may not. Your library will probably go through a certain protocol that will determine what library the request is made from. You can, of course, use a database like World Cat to find specific title, and give that to your library, but chances are all that will do is convince them the book exists. They'll still go through their own channels. Most academic libraries (which hold things like Waffen-und Kostumkunde) will xerox an article from their bound volumes (and occasionally will charge for it) in order to satisfy an ILL request. It is alway best to give your library as much information as possible, including page numbers if possible, to get such an article. If your public library can't/won't handle such things, try the nearest college/university library. Most are open to the public at least to some degree, and many issue cards to non-students. << So what solution do you suggest for times when the article exists, but unavailable? It is very frustrating to know that there is published information out there that I want to read, that I am willing to pay for, but cannot obtain because it is published in something like the Proceedings of>> Yes, it can be very frustrating. There are a lot of articles I've seen references to for years, and still have not gotten hold of. But just because you want to read it, and are willing to pay, does not guarantee you will get it. That's the nature of research. Deborah arcadiacb@aol.com[14,330]CSuX:long linen fibers Subject: H-COST: Re: long linen fibers From: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 18:45:21 EDT -Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Noting the comment the other day about American machinery chopping up the flax into smaller fibers. This is correct--most American machinery has been made to chop into small "cotton-sized" fibers whereas a lot of European and South American machinery can still process the longer fibers. I learned this recently at CSA talks given by a wonderful spinner/weaver Dale Liles who is also doing research on hemp linen. Another revelation--"linen" is the generic name for fibers made from (word I can't remember that means long woody/grassy type plants). A lot of cloth was made from hemp linen. Just thought I'd pass this on. Charlene franchesca havas [76,331]CSuX:ill Subject: Re: H-COST: ILL From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 18:03:37 -0500 -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" How about this. I go back to my library and see if they can send you all the articles? If you have no success at you alls (can you tell I am from Texas) end just let me know and I will get over to the library and see if this is possible again. I think it is, they are very nice, and the most I think it will cost you all is 1.00 or postage. I have been in contact with a publisher of some of the articles and am in the process of convincing them to post the articles to http://www.northernlight.com/barnesandnoble/search.html where you can order articles from almost anywhere for under 4.00 each. Or to give me permission to limited distribution at NO COST. I will not charge anyone they will not charge me. It may be Monday before I hear from them again but so far it has been quite positive. No one has ever asked them before. Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas -----Original Message----- From: Deborah Pulliam To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Date: Friday, June 11, 1999 5:31 PM Subject: H-COST: ILL : :-Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) : :<< It seems to me it would make it easier for any who wanted it to point their :Inter Library Loan people to a specific library than to simply throw their :net out blindly and hope someone responded?>> : :Very few public libraries, if any, simply "throw a net blindly" in order to :do an interlibrary loan search. Most go through specific channels, often :organized by regional or state libraries. Telling your librarian where a :periodical is held *may* help, but then again, it may not. Your library :will probably go through a certain protocol that will determine what :library the request is made from. : :You can, of course, use a database like World Cat to find specific title, :and give that to your library, but chances are all that will do is convince :them the book exists. They'll still go through their own channels. : :Most academic libraries (which hold things like Waffen-und Kostumkunde) :will xerox an article from their bound volumes (and occasionally will :charge for it) in order to satisfy an ILL request. It is alway best to give :your library as much information as possible, including page numbers if :possible, to get such an article. : :If your public library can't/won't handle such things, try the nearest :college/university library. Most are open to the public at least to some :degree, and many issue cards to non-students. : :<< So what solution do you suggest for times when the article exists, but :unavailable? It is very frustrating to know that there is published :information out there that I want to read, that I am willing to pay for, but :cannot obtain because it is published in something like the Proceedings of>> : :Yes, it can be very frustrating. There are a lot of articles I've seen :references to for years, and still have not gotten hold of. But just :because you want to read it, and are willing to pay, does not guarantee you :will get it. That's the nature of research. : : :Deborah : : : mffski [27,332]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: "mffski" Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 19:00:34 -0400 -Poster: "mffski" Dear Fran Grimble, : I have never been unable to get any publication I tried to interlibrary loan, : including foreign journals containing Janet Arnold's articles, and including : some very obscure and/or foreign publications. (I once borrowed a Polish museum : exhibit catalog, for which the public library who got it for me told me there : was exactly _one_ copy in a US library. Later I bought my own copy direct from : the Polish museum, which was easier than I expected.) As usual, your advice is very helpful - especially about buying privileges from a university library. I'd forgotten about that. I'm always grateful for the trouble you take. Thanks. Maryanne mffski@ptd.net cathy harding [26,333]CSuX:ill Subject: RE: H-COST: ILL From: "Cathy Harding" Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:15:11 -0700 -Poster: "Cathy Harding" I was one of the "stack gremlins" at a university library when i was in college. It was my job to wander the book and periodical stacks to get journals and books for ILL. I would get the books and journals and make copies of the requested materials. In general (large generalization here) the copies were sent to the requestor, who paid the copying price when s/he picked up the material. I could get almost anything by ILL, either the actual volume or a copy of the article - if I put the request in at the university library. BTW, the copies were not free. The county and city library system would only ILL book, not copies of articles. If your library doesn't have Ill services or can't get you copies, ask the librarians if they know of a library that does have that service. If that fails, I have been known to use the mom system. Find out if Penn state has it, call mom and ask her to get a copy of what ever it is the next time she is in the library or mom system 2 - ask mom who we know in x town, and see if they can get me a copy..... It often works. It helps to have a mom who was a librarian. Maeve jennie chancey [16,334]CSuX:what would mental assylum patients have worn from 1790-1810? Subject: H-COST: What would mental assylum patients have worn from 1790-1810? From: Jennie Chancey Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 20:18:33 -0400 -Poster: Jennie Chancey If anyone has a clue, I would greatly appreciate help! I've been asked to assist with some research for a new film shooting in London, and this question just stymied me. Thanks! Jennie Chancey -- Sense and Sensibility http://www.sensibility.com winsome clothing with an old-fashioned appeal kat@grendal.rain.com[16,335]CSuX:long linen fibers Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: long linen fibers From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 17:25:23 +0000 -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > Another revelation--"linen" is the > generic name for fibers made from (word I can't remember that means long > woody/grassy type plants). Bast fiber is what I think is the word for which you're looking. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! the purple elephant [28,336]CSuX:copyrights--was j. arnold Subject: Re: H-COST: re: copyrights--was J. Arnold From: The Purple Elephant Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 10:03:39 +0930 (CST) -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, Lavolta Press wrote: > > > > As for our own copyright infringment experience, we did not take legal action. Actually, the action would have had to have come from our publisher, anyways. > > That depends on what rights you sold to your publisher in the contract between you. If you sold them first serial rights only, for example, rather than all rights, you yourself could certainly sue someone for plagiarizing your work. Of course, I don't know the details of your contract. > > > > We figured it wouldn't be worth the effort--or the potential nastiness to take action. Instead, we have made these people (who are competitors) eminently knowledgeable of our understanding that they copied our article. Oh--and we have enjoyed watching them eat a lot of crow, especially at professional meetings and the like (other colleagues recognized the article, too, so the word did get out)! > > > > Good for you. > However, just a warning, if someone did choose to take action against you the penalties could be rather nasty. I believe here the fine is $1000 per page , so if you make 10 copies of a five page article you could end up paying $50 000....it adds up quickly. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ kat@grendal.rain.com[31,337]CSuX:what would mental assylum patients have worn from 17 Subject: Re: H-COST: What would mental assylum patients have worn from 17 From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 17:32:41 +0000 -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > Subject: H-COST: What would mental assylum patients have worn from 1790-1810? > If anyone has a clue, I would greatly appreciate help! I've been asked > to assist with some research for a new film shooting in London, and this > question just stymied me. Probably regular clothing (although depending on the hospital, not in very good shape and perhaps not with all the usual parts like shirts or corsets.) There were restraint items (which the Public [mental] Hospital museum at Williamsburg shows, as well as what the cells from at least 2 different times.) Bethlem Hospital 1247-1997 by Patricia Allderidge (ISBN 1-86077-054-1) (which I got recently in London, I think at the Museum of London) shows some engravings and pictures of inmates in such hospitals (some from 1850 are actual photographs!). Hope this helps. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! diana h [41,338]CSuX:cotton velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Cotton Velvet From: Diana H Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 18:56:16 -0700 -Poster: Diana H Lynn Meyer wrote: > -Poster: Lynn Meyer > > > I am looking for reasonably priced cotton velvet to make > >Houpelandes. I have one source at $11.00 a yard but am having trouble > > >finding others to compare. I will definitely welcome any help. > > I seem to remember hearing once that cotton velvet (or velveteen?) > was closer in appearance to period (silk) velvet than the synthetic > velvets (rayon I assume). But it's a very vague memory. Can > anybody educate me on this? Dear Lynn, I just happened to be at Exotic Silks in Palo Alto today and silk velvet looks remarkably similar to rayon velvet but the silk has a different hand to it. (BTW, it runs from $17-$25 per yard for 36" wide at ES) Personally, I would rather use cotton velveteen for my velvets because it is cheaper and is a *dream* to work with. It presses easily and doesn't fray nearly as badly as rayon velvet does. And it is so much easier to wash! Hope this helps! Diana :~> -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" megan mchugh [17,339]CSuX:star wars costume Subject: Re: H-COST: Star Wars costume From: "Megan McHugh" Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 22:59:13 -0400 -Poster: "Megan McHugh" Changing the topic again, I just saw the new Star wars movie. I know the costumes for the queen were discussed here when the movie premiered, but I would like an opinion on the poncho worn by Qui-Gon Jinn on Tatooine, during the pod race. It looks like a regular poncho , e.g. a large triangle in some scenes, but there is a clear seam visible where a dropped shoulder would be. Is it two triangular pieces sewn onto the straight sides of a 5-sided polygon, point down, to form a large triangle when viewed flat? or is there another shape to it? I would like to copy it. Any suggestions welcome. wanda pease [31,340]CSuX:graves excavated at the augustinian friary in hull Subject: H-COST: Graves excavated at the Augustinian Friary in Hull From: "Wanda Pease" Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 20:16:11 -0700 -Poster: "Wanda Pease" I've been reading back issues of British Archaeology (http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba.html) online and the February 1995 issue has an article about the excavation of the graveyard of the Augustinian Friary in Hull. The article is particularly excited about the fact that the wet conditions had preserved the oak coffins, and even the brains within the skulls. In addition the wet conditions had preserved quite a bit of clothing from the period: "The waterlogged conditions at the site also preserved oak coffins and one of the finest collections of medieval everyday clothing yet found, including several complete tunics." {snip} "The most spectacular item of clothing found at the site was a complete leather `girdle' on a female skeleton (a belt looped round the waist with a long strap dangling to the ankles), a court fashion garment in the late 13th and early 14th centuries which has not previously been found in such good condition." Has anyone seen anything more about this excavation, or does anyone have any newer information, like what is happening with the conservation of the clothing and other articles? Wanda/Regina piranhabb@aol.com[9,341]CSuX:sculptured velvet Subject: H-COST: Sculptured Velvet From: PiranhaBB@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 00:44:40 EDT -Poster: PiranhaBB@aol.com Is cut velvet, or sculptured somehow, in any way period for Elizabethan England? Cheers, Lisa i. marc carlson [113,342]CSuX:ill Subject: H-COST: RE: ILL From: "I. Marc Carlson" Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 0:05:53 -0500 -Poster: "I. Marc Carlson" First, let me start out by saying that I am currently an ILL Librarian professionally at an academic library. ><< It seems to me it would make it easier for any who wanted it to point their >Inter Library Loan people to a specific library than to simply throw their >net out blindly and hope someone responded?>> This is actually not a bad idea, although the actual mechanics will depend on the Library you are working with. >...periodical is held *may* help, but then again, it may not. Your library >will probably go through a certain protocol that will determine what >library the request is made from. This is entirely correct. >You can, of course, use a database like World Cat to find specific title, >and give that to your library, but chances are all that will do is convince >them the book exists. They'll still go through their own channels. If you use World Cat (a Firstsearch Database), do yourself a favor and make sure that you note not only the title, but the "accession number" listed on the record. That will save them time, and better guarantee that they will be able to find the record. Most public libraries have only a single person doing the ILL work, and of those, the vast majority are paraprofessionals who may not have a lot of time (or inclination) to do a lot of work searching for a specific item. >...your library as much information as possible, including page numbers if >possible, to get such an article. Correct. In fact, page and volume numbers for articles are pretty much a neccesity, since the libraries who receive the request may well not be inclined to do that searching for you. That sounds harsh, but it's true. >Yes, it can be very frustrating. There are a lot of articles I've seen >references to for years, and still have not gotten hold of. But just >because you want to read it, and are willing to pay, does not guarantee you >will get it. That's the nature of research. The best option in this case is the old fashioned one that researchers had to use long before ILL came about. Find the nearest library that holds the item and go there (or find someone who lives near there and will copy it for you). <"Franchesca Havas" > >How about this. I go back to my library and see if they can send you all the >articles?... This is a possibility. There are some problems if all the articles are in a specific issue, since there you run into copyright problems (It is against the law to copy and send an entire issue of a journal, for example). It is also against national ILL agreements for them to send them to materials to specific individuals who are not their patrons. However, if you can convince them to send the materials, then the other person can let their ILL people know that this arrangement has been made. This can (but may not always) make the process a bit easier. >If you have no success at you alls (can you tell I am from Texas) >end just let me know and I will get over to the library and see if this is >possible again. I think it is, they are very nice, and the most I think it >will cost you all is 1.00 or postage. You may be surprised at how much ILL actually costs. For example, for every article that is copied, copyright must be reported and paid for. That copyright is the responsibility of the library that requests the copy to pay for. And some publishers absolutely refuse to grant permission for their articles to be copied, period. In that case, technically you are violating copyright to even copy the article for your own use (although they are not likely to ever know). [What this means, btw, is that if you have a copy of an article, and you copy again it for someone else's research, you are violating copyright, and if caught can be fined] >I have been in contact with a publisher of some of the articles and am in >the process of convincing them to post the articles to >http://www.northernlight.com/barnesandnoble/search.html... Please do. If you are successful, that would make things much easier for everyone. >Or to give me permission to limited distribution at NO COST... Not likely, but if you manage it, it would be very useful. <"Cathy Harding" > >I was one of the "stack gremlins" at a university library when i was in >college. It was my job to wander the book and periodical stacks to get >journals and books for ILL. I would get the books and journals and make >copies of the requested materials. In general (large generalization here) >the copies were sent to the requestor, who paid the copying price when s/he >picked up the material. These requestors would have been invariably other libraries, not individuals. (Although it IS possible that the library you worked for was willing to sidestep the rules, although getting caught doing that would likely have gotten their ILL privileges suspended) As a warning, since the passage of recent copyright laws, and their interpretations, many libraries are becoming a LOT more cautious about photocopying articles, which is why some public libraries refuse to do it. Also, they may be reluctant to do so, since paying the royalties for the articles copied can get VERY expensive (just this last week, we ran our copyright report, and for about 30 articles, the total ran to about $500 -- some were free, some were VERY expensive). Marc Carlson pierre & sandy pettinger [27,343]CSuX:chinese buttons Subject: H-COST: Re: Chinese buttons From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 00:14:00 -0500 -Poster: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger We know of two books you might try: Chinese Knotting by Lydia Chen The Complete Book of Knots (approximate title) This one is a very thick book that covers all kinds of knots. Mostly utility and sailor knots, but there is an entire chapter on frogs, Chinese buttons, etc. I found it at Barnes and Noble. It's about $70, I got it for a Xmas present. Hope this helps. Sandy >Subject: H-COST: Fwd: Round buttons made of cord > >- -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" > > Does anyone have directions for making these 'Oriental-style' buttons? >Or have good suggestions as to what closures or styles of buttons to use >for Mongolian attire? Someone I know needs to finish her outfit soon, but >needs to know what to use that will suit. Many thanks! Carol > jean1cait1@aol.com[10,344]CSuX:introduction Subject: Re: H-COST: introduction From: Jean1Cait1@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 01:18:38 EDT -Poster: Jean1Cait1@aol.com Welcome to the list Bjarne! It will be a pleasure hearing and working with you! Cheers, Caitrin Drachenwald, England margo anderson [22,345]CSuX:cotton velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Cotton Velvet From: Margo Anderson Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 22:38:16 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson > >I just happened to be at Exotic Silks in Palo Alto today and silk velvet >looks remarkably similar to rayon velvet but the silk has a different >hand to it. Unless things have changed in the year or so since I've visited there, the "silk" velvet that Exotic Silks sells is actually a silk ground with rayon pile. The first time I encountered this stuff, I thought it must be mismarked--why on earth would they make the part that doesn't show out of silk? It turns out it's for making that chemical burnout "devoure" velvet tht's been popular for the last few years. If Exotic Silks IS carrying pure silk velvet, please let me know, so that I can order swatches....and mortgage my children, probably. Margo margo anderson [19,346]CSuX:star wars costume Subject: Re: H-COST: Star Wars costume From: Margo Anderson Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 22:47:35 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson I finally saw it, too. Loved the Queen's outfits, except that ruffled thing at the end, but there were a few things that I wondered about: If a culture is so technologically advanced that they have sentient robots, why are their textiles so slubby? And, why didn't they learn the Lesson Of Luke's Feathered Bangs and give young Obi-wan a less mid 90's hairdo? That brush cut with the little braid behind one ear looks dated already. The ways I can find to stall when I should be finishing the costume for tomorrow... Margo franchesca havas [57,347]CSuX:ill Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: ILL From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 01:11:26 -0500 -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" Major cool dude! What I was referring to was not ILL, it is a different process altogether according to my librarian in Plano. We are actually placing an order for one article out of one magazine. There are several articles but each comes from a different edition of the same mag. They are doing the copying and distribution, not me not any of us, them, they are doing the copying and distribution. They charged me nothing at the time. That may have changed by now. If there is a charge if they are even willing to do it for others then they will pass it on to them. I will not charge for anything in this matter or photocopy it for mailing. I will let the list know the results of my current negotiations. Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas -----Original Message----- From: I. Marc Carlson To: H-COSTUME@indra.com Date: Saturday, June 12, 1999 12:06 AM Subject: H-COST: RE: ILL : :-Poster: "I. Marc Carlson" : :First, let me start out by saying that I am currently an ILL Librarian :professionally at an academic library. : :>If you have no success at you alls (can you tell I am from Texas) :>end just let me know and I will get over to the library and see if this is :>possible again. I think it is, they are very nice, and the most I think it :>will cost you all is 1.00 or postage. : :You may be surprised at how much ILL actually costs. For example, for every :article that is copied, copyright must be reported and paid for. That :copyright is the responsibility of the library that requests the copy :to pay for. And some publishers absolutely refuse to grant permission for :their articles to be copied, period. In that case, technically you are :violating copyright to even copy the article for your own use (although :they are not likely to ever know). [What this means, btw, is that if you :have a copy of an article, and you copy again it for someone else's research, :you are violating copyright, and if caught can be fined] lynnx@mc.net[23,348]CSuX:star wars (not as ot as it would seem) Subject: H-COST: Star Wars (not as OT as it would seem) From: lynnx@mc.net Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 03:45:52 -0700 -Poster: lynnx@mc.net (By which I mean there was very little changing done to the stuff they announced with great fanfare that they were "basing" on *real* cultures) I've had pretty good luck looking at all the kiddie kultch that's come out, even the coloring books and toys are helpful. You have to rat through a ton of it (the storybooks w/photos, the Villains and Heroes poster magazines, and the "souvenir magazine" are best) to get enough views, but I managed to eke out what that one Jedi outfit Amidala wears was... a houppeland, right out of Hunnisett or Cynthia Virtue's webpage! Look at Japanese and other Oriental and M.E. garb for possible sources, and try a "Phantom Menace" search on the web - there's a gazillion pages out there including The Official one. Oh - there's supposed to be a how-dey-do-dat show about the movie on TV Tues. night, 9 PM pacific time - will let you know if I hear more. (list-owner, would you like us to take this offlist?) Heather kat@grendal.rain.com[29,349]CSuX:sculptured velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Sculptured Velvet From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 07:29:21 +0000 -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > Is cut velvet, or sculptured somehow, in any way period for Elizabethan > England? I saw some lovely pieces of multilevel late 16th century velvets at the V&A. Some had cut and uncut areas. Some had 2 or more levels of pile height. Some had brocaded areas. The important thing would be to have the closest hand you can get to what was there (so it hangs right) and a pattern which they might have had (anything from about late 15th through late 16th probably, since they often had older fabrics from their inventories or cut down larger gowns into smaller ones.) For some books on the subject: A History of Textile Art by Agnes Geijer (isbn 0 85667 055 3) Historic Textile Fabrics by Richard Glazier (no isbn, wish they'd reprint this one from 1923.) Two Thousand Years of Textiles by Adele Weibel (again, no isbn. 1952) Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! cynthia virtue [37,350]CSuX:star wars (not as ot as it would seem) Subject: Re: H-COST: Star Wars (not as OT as it would seem) From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 11:15:45 -0400 -Poster: Cynthia Virtue Heather wrote: > views, but I managed to eke out what that one Jedi outfit Amidala wears > was... a houppeland, You mean the maroon one, where she gets to run around and shoot things? It is fairly close -- but the body is more fitted than I would attribute to a houp, and the belt is at waist level. Sleeves and skirt are quite full, though. I think Darth Maul's outfit is probably quite similar; he also gets trousers, but has the knee-length skirt and huge sleeves. Makes for great swoopy motions. Guilty secret: The fluffy layered outfit that Amidala wears at the end -- the headress reminds me of a giant Pringle potato chip. Margo wrote: > If a culture is so technologically advanced that they have sentient robots, > why are their textiles so slubby? Because they like it that way? We're advanced enough that we need never have a slubby fabric, and we buy 'em anyway because we like 'em. Maybe a recent living history group recently visited the palace on Theed and inspired the Queen's tailors to "hearken back" to the old days, when fabric wasn't as finished. cv -- "Of the heads of mice being burned is made that excellent powder, for scouring and cleansing of the teeth called 'tooth-soape', unto which if spikenard [lavendar] be added or mingled, it will take away any filthy scent or stronge savour in the mouth." -- Edward Topsell's 'History of Four-Footed Beasts', 1607 lavolta press [36,351]CSuX:ill Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: ILL From: Lavolta Press Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 08:43:55 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press > > > We are actually placing an order for one article out of one magazine. > > There are several articles but each comes from a different edition of the > same mag. They are doing the copying and distribution, not me not any of us, > them, they are doing the copying and distribution. > > They charged me nothing at the time. That may have changed by now. If there > is a charge if they are even willing to do it for others then they will pass > it on to them. > > I will not charge for anything in this matter or photocopy it for mailing. > > I will let the list know the results of my current negotiations. > > I'm confused . . . are you negotiating with your library or the publishers? It is the publishers and authors who can legitimately give you permission to make copies for other people's use. Your library can't. Fran --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm margo anderson [15,352]CSuX:!880 s headwear Subject: H-COST: !880's headwear From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 08:43:43 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson I'm trying to decide what sort of hat or bonnet I should wear with my 1880's wrapper and apron. This is for a moderately prosperous merchant's sister, working in the herb garden at her home in Coloma, California. Should I wear a sunbonnet? That seems too "pioneer on the trail", somehow. How about a wide brimmed straw hat, maybe with a simple ribbon on it? If so, what shape is the crown for this period- round, flat, tall, low, etc? Margo gia gavino-gattshall [77,353]CSuX:sculptured velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Sculptured Velvet From: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 10:06:18 -0700 -Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Kat is quite right. Below are some books that show extant pieces, and examples of velvet in portraits (and not for just elizabethan). There are just too many books to reference, so I'm just listing a few. If you'd like more suggestions, you can email me off list. "Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlocked" by Janet Arnold (mostly just for portrait examples) "Velvet History Techniques Fashions" edited by Fabrizio de Marinis, ISBN 88 7017 115 9 (europe) ISBN 0 9627985 1 7 (US) Lots of extant examples of fabrics. If you look closely at some portraits, the garments are made with the fabrics you see or the fabric resemble closely the pieces in the pictures. "Silk" by Jacques Anquentil ISBN 2 08013 616 X Has a little information on just velvet as it covers the use of silk in general, but I still suggest it to check out from your local library for looking at for velvet anyways. If you want to learn more about the weaving technique for velvet, "Handwoven" the September/October 1992 issue has articles about the weaving methods and equipments for the different kinds of velvet. Has a few pictures of extant pieces, but most are for later period. "Weavers" Issues 8 and 9 has some weaving draft patterns and interview of a velvet weaver. Some of this is overkill on the original question, but it may be helpful to have anyways. Gia/Giacinta researchaholic -----Original Message----- From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Saturday, June 12, 1999 7:38 AM Subject: Re: H-COST: Sculptured Velvet -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > Is cut velvet, or sculptured somehow, in any way period for Elizabethan > England? I saw some lovely pieces of multilevel late 16th century velvets at the V&A. Some had cut and uncut areas. Some had 2 or more levels of pile height. Some had brocaded areas. The important thing would be to have the closest hand you can get to what was there (so it hangs right) and a pattern which they might have had (anything from about late 15th through late 16th probably, since they often had older fabrics from their inventories or cut down larger gowns into smaller ones.) For some books on the subject: A History of Textile Art by Agnes Geijer (isbn 0 85667 055 3) Historic Textile Fabrics by Richard Glazier (no isbn, wish they'd reprint this one from 1923.) Two Thousand Years of Textiles by Adele Weibel (again, no isbn. 1952) Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! megan mchugh [10,354]CSuX:star wars costumes Subject: Re: H-COST: Star Wars costumes From: "Megan McHugh" Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 13:02:22 -0400 -Poster: "Megan McHugh" OK, I searched around and found a picture that indicates the poncho in question is a large triangle shape with a neck slit on the long side. Now, what kind of fabric is used for this piece of clothing, as well as the reg-looking stuff young Anakin and his mother wear? Do you think it is a loose linen weave? pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[17,355]CSuX:knot books Subject: H-COST: knot books From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 13:06:27 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> You're probably referring to Ashley, which is still in print after 50 years. You can usually find nice old copies in used book stores at reasonable prices. Ashley, Clifford. The Ashley Book of Knots. New York: Doubleday, Doran & Company, 1944 cynthia virtue [19,356]CSuX:star wars costumes Subject: Re: H-COST: Star Wars costumes From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 13:25:58 -0400 -Poster: Cynthia Virtue As an aside, on Anakin's bed is a dark pillow with cream colored designs. You can see it on the star wars website in the "tour Anakin's hovel" section. We have a piece of Moritanian "mud cloth" which is nearly identical to the pillow. It is likely goat-wool, and the mud is used as a dye. My guess is that you slather the wool with the mud and then use a tool to scrape some of the mud off before it dyes the fabric; certainly the designs on the stuff we have look free-hand. The designs are a dark cream color; the rest is brown-black. The process must be fairly color-fast, because there is no trace of actual mud on this textile, so it's been washed at least once. We haven't test-washed it, as we're not sure what to do with it, except keep it as a curiosity. cv henk t jong [23,357]CSuX:cotton velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Cotton Velvet From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:27:35 +0200 -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi, > > I am looking for reasonably priced cotton velvet to make > >Houpelandes. I have one source at $11.00 a yard but am having trouble > >finding others to compare. I will definitely welcome any help. Before you spend money on (cotton) velvet, don't forget that houppelandes for the most part were made of woollen broadcloth and lined with silk or furs and with linen for less affluent people. Silk velvet brocade was only worn by the very richest of princes. The normal velvet we know was hardly ever worn during the middle ages. Henk arcadiacb@aol.com[19,358]CSuX:1880 s working headwear Subject: H-COST: Re: 1880's working headwear From: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:16:36 EDT -Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Hi Margo, Just my opinion, but I'd go with a pretty sunbonnet. If you are actually working in the garden, a hat would fall off when you bend your head down to work with the plants,and any ribbons would fall and get in the way, plus would not give any coverage and sun protection on the face or back of the neck (assuming that as an adult, your hair would be worn up). Remember the ideal of the lily-white skin, especially if you are protraying someone of middle class or above (also a good chance to interpret this reverse-of-modern-day-fashion). If you are just doing an short stroll through the garden and maybe snipping off herbs that are growing several feet above the ground, that's a different matter. But for actually working the garden, you would be at an very casual "at-home" situation, presumably not expecting visitors, so no need to dress up. Sunbonnets have been worn well into this century all over the country for just such chores. Again, just my opinion. Charlene strauss@wcuvax1.wcu.edu[19,359]CSuX:need to rent: pink lady costumes for grease Subject: H-COST: need to rent: Pink Lady costumes for Grease From: STRAUSS@WCUVAX1.WCU.EDU Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:18:24 -0500 (EST) -Poster: STRAUSS@WCUVAX1.WCU.EDU My wife is doing Grease at Highlands Playhouse, in NC. They need those costumes from 6/17-7/4. Does anyone have them on hand, who would rent them? Or else know of a reputable place for them? Thanks, Bob ==================================================================== Bob Strauss Cataloger Hunter Library Western Carolina U. strauss@wcu.edu Class home page: http://www3.wcu.edu/~strauss Personal home page: http://www3.wcu.edu/~strauss/personal ==================================================================== leif drews [24,360]CSuX:webpage. Subject: H-COST: webpage. From: leif drews Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:19:26 +0200 -Poster: leif drews I have compleated my webpages now with my costume work. If you would like to se my work with embroidery and lace for a robe a l'anglaise you can se it there and many other costumes i have made. It is the 1. url adress below. Bjarne Drews in Denmark. -- Leif Drews Åboulevard 5, 3 th 1635 København V Bjarne Drews Åboulevard 5,3.th 1635 København V tlf. 35 37 13 70 allison thurman [15,361]CSuX:star wars costume - qui gon jinn s poncho Subject: H-COST: star wars costume - qui gon jinn's poncho From: "Allison Thurman" Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:34:49 -0400 -Poster: "Allison Thurman" just looked through my copy of "star wars episode 1 visual dictionary" for a good photo of this - most of the photos are tiny but i did see the dropped shoulder seam you mentioned. to me it looks like they added some kind of short dropped sleeve with the sleeve seam open (so it looks like a poncho). may have to go see that movie a second time to get details! the book has good photos of every other costume in the movie however - glad i got it! allison ella lynoure rajamaki [29,362]CSuX:sculptured velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Sculptured Velvet From: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 01:50:28 +2 -Poster: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" On 12 Jun 99, at 0:44, PiranhaBB@aol.com wrote: > Is cut velvet, or sculptured somehow, in any way period for Elizabethan > England? I know it was used in Finland then. Renessanssin puku Suomessa (Renaissance Dress in Finland) by Riitta Pylkkanen shows three photos of "cut" velvet (probably woven that way, not really cut, I think): Dark red on yellow ground, red on red ground (though there is another unmentioned colour or the lightest red is rather pink) and red on natural coloured linen ground. I wonder whether red was extremely popular colour in such velvets or whether it's just a coincident. A brownish violet cut velvet is also mentioned. The book says import of silk fabrics to Finland was small, but the most popular silk fabrics were patterned velvet, silk damasks and brocades. Most imported fabrics in Finland in the end of 16th century and in the beginning or 17th century were imported through Sweden, so the origin of most fabrics is unknown. -- -------(c) 1999--------------* lynoure@tuug.org * Ella Lynoure Rajamaki--------* http://www.tuug.org/~lynoure * danielle nunn [15,363]CSuX:sculptured velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Sculptured Velvet From: Danielle Nunn Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:40:19 -0400 -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, >Is cut velvet, or sculptured somehow, in any way period for Elizabethan >England? Yes, cut, uncut, and voided velvet are all period for Elizabethan England. Have you found a good source for it? Cheers, Danielle missmela@aol.com[10,364]CSuX:need to rent: pink lady costumes for grease Subject: Re: H-COST: need to rent: Pink Lady costumes for Grease From: MissMela@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:34:47 EDT -Poster: MissMela@aol.com Theater Company in Upland, California on Benton Street carries a complete set of rental costumes for Grease. If you have trouble finding their number from information, get back to me and I will look it up for you. To bad you aren't doing it later, I'm building it right now for a cast of 80! but the show doesn't go up until the last weeks of July. When you call Theater Co (who ships across the United States) tell them Mela sent you. Thanks Mela dave;editors(heritage matters) [38,365]CSuX:sculptured velvet- gets everywhere Subject: Re: H-COST: Sculptured Velvet- gets everywhere From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 01:14:20 +0100 -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" When making some costumes for the participants in a processional piece in 1992, I attempted to sculpt some patterns into velvet for some of the sleeves; Without any sources to hand or time to research I had to experiment and found that the best method was to use stencils cut out of the heavy brown waxed paper that is best for stencils and once firmly in place carefully shave with a cut throat razor. After a few mistakes and a bit of practice it became quite easy but time consuming. To move things along a bit faster I then got acceptable but not perfect results from using a rotary electric razor; This was much quicker even with cleaning the razor out every few minutes; ( It was never any good for shaving with; ever again); So as not to waste time on parts that would not be used I made up the sleeves first and than shaved them on a very hard cutting board. They were buttoned down the front so it was easy to do this. I though I would share this if anyone is interest and may want to try it. Remember though two points; Dont get any thread or part of the base material near the razor . Have somebody else helping with a vacuum cleaner to pick up the cut bits; they tend to be electrosatic , stick to anything and attempt to choke you. So safety first; Dave LD MUNDY Editor Heritage Matters +++++++++++++++++ Wysewords. Quote of the week " Those who do not support the bombing should ask themselves what they would do if the were walking down the street and saw a man violently raping a women...Blair's answer ;;Kill them both and bomb the Chinese embassy " Jeremy Hardy Radio 4 annbwass@aol.com[5,366]CSuX:long linen fibers Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: long linen fibers From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 20:23:51 EDT -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com "Bast" fibers? beth [61,367]CSuX:chafing and walking Subject: H-COST: Chafing and walking From: "Beth" Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:16:51 -0400 -Poster: "Beth" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_06E2_01BEB518.E36BFBE0 Could part of the problem simply be because of how we walk? Someplace = (wish I could remember where) I read that in the 1850's women's legs = swept out in a circular motion - to kick the full skirts out of their = way. One of the male arguments to Bloomer costume was that women looked = awkward walking in them because they did not swing their legs straight = front to back as men did. Now women - in modern western dress- walk with = their feet following a straight line from front to back or swinging them = towards a central line (swinging the hips more and more as the feet push = towards the center line). our style of walk seems to push the thighs = together. Does anyone have information on how Elizabethan women walked? = Or know someone who grew up wearing a sari or other dress with no leg = coverings? It would be interesting to know if they walk differently from = us sexy hip swinging Americans. (clearly NOT describing myself) Beth ------=_NextPart_000_06E2_01BEB518.E36BFBE0
Could part of the problem simply be because of how = we walk?=20 Someplace (wish I could remember where) I read that in the 1850's = women's legs=20 swept out in a circular motion - to kick the full skirts out of their = way. One=20 of the male arguments to Bloomer costume was that women looked awkward = walking=20 in them because they did not swing their legs straight front to back as = men did.=20 Now women - in modern western dress- walk with their feet following a = straight=20 line from front to back or swinging them towards a central line = (swinging the=20 hips more and more as the feet push towards the center line). our style = of walk=20 seems to push the thighs together. Does anyone have information on how=20 Elizabethan women walked? Or know someone who grew up wearing a sari or = other=20 dress with no leg coverings? It would be interesting to know if they = walk=20 differently from us sexy hip swinging Americans. (clearly NOT describing = myself)
 
Beth
------=_NextPart_000_06E2_01BEB518.E36BFBE0-- franchesca havas [60,368]CSuX:ill Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: ILL From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 20:31:43 -0500 -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" Replied to privately. Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas -----Original Message----- From: Lavolta Press To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Saturday, June 12, 1999 10:44 AM Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: ILL : :-Poster: Lavolta Press : :> :> :> We are actually placing an order for one article out of one magazine. :> :> There are several articles but each comes from a different edition of the :> same mag. They are doing the copying and distribution, not me not any of us, :> them, they are doing the copying and distribution. :> :> They charged me nothing at the time. That may have changed by now. If there :> is a charge if they are even willing to do it for others then they will pass :> it on to them. :> :> I will not charge for anything in this matter or photocopy it for mailing. :> :> I will let the list know the results of my current negotiations. :> :> : :I'm confused . . . are you negotiating with your library or the publishers? It :is the publishers and authors who can legitimately give you permission to make :copies for other people's use. Your library can't. : :Fran : :--------------------------------------------- :Visit our web pages! :Books on historic costume and vintage clothes :http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm :Historic and vintage dance :http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm : : : merlyncc@aol.com[18,369]CSuX:sculptured velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Sculptured Velvet From: Merlyncc@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 22:34:59 EDT -Poster: Merlyncc@aol.com No longer have the original request on Sculptured Velvet, but wanted to share a technique I saw at the HIA show in Dallas earlier this year. Someone was taking deeply carved wooden stamps, face up, and placing rayon velvet over the design. Then the design was steamed in with a steam iron, over a light presscloth, I think. Then a flat board was put on it for a few seconds until it cooled a bit. The result was an embossed flat, lustrous design in the velvet. Their designs were limited, nothing I cared about, and they were demonstrating using small pouches, so the design was only about 3.5" x 3.5". I wish I had paid more attention! Carving the stamp would be the hardest part! Priscilla Schmitz carol j. bell cannon [23,370]CSuX:sculptured velvet- gets everywhere Subject: Re: H-COST: Sculptured Velvet- gets everywhere From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:19:10 -0700 -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 01:14 AM 6/13/99 +0100, you wrote: > >-Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" > >When making some costumes for the participants in a processional piece in >1992, I attempted to sculpt some patterns into velvet for some of the >sleeves ... ... Thank you for that how to. Have somebody else helping with a vacuum cleaner >to pick up the cut bits; they tend to be electrosatic , stick to anything >and attempt to choke you. In that case, I'd also suggest those handy little 'paper' dust masks all hardware stores sell inexpensively, and work in a well ventilated room, if possible. Again, thank you for the cautions, too. Much appreciated. >So safety first; Dave >LD MUNDY >Editor Heritage Matters Carol lynnx@mc.net[33,371]CSuX:sculptured velvet- gets everywhere Subject: H-COST: Sculptured Velvet- gets everywhere From: lynnx@mc.net Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 07:18:00 -0700 -Poster: lynnx@mc.net Dave, *This* is what I join lists like this for! Your post on velvet was fascinating. Could you tell us a little about _Heritage Matters_? Just curious, Heather - -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" > When making some costumes for the participants in a processional piece > in > 1992, I attempted to sculpt some patterns into velvet for some of the > sleeves; Without any sources to hand or time to research I had to > experiment ( goes the razor) > I though I would share this if anyone is interest and may want to try > it. > Remember though two points; Dont get any thread or part of the base > material near the razor . Have somebody else helping with a vacuum > cleaner > to pick up the cut bits; they tend to be electrosatic , stick to > anything and attempt to choke you. So safety first; > Dave > LD MUNDY > Editor Heritage Matters lynnx@mc.net[36,372]CSuX:mud cloth Subject: H-COST: Mud cloth From: lynnx@mc.net Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 07:00:01 -0700 -Poster: lynnx@mc.net Not sure if your "mud cloth" is the same stuff that's All The Rage out here in Chicago, but chances are they use the same goop: Mud mixed with (I think) rusted iron filings and possibly something else. The cream color is probably the color of the cloth before dyeing it; they seem to use a resist (like batik) technique with it as well as just painting or stamping the designs onto the cloth. (I have a piece of The Real Thang, woven in 5 or 6" wide strips and sewn together, in various shades of brown, tan, rust, cream etc. If the stuff you have is real, well... my 2 yards x around 50 (?) inches would go for around $50 out here, and that's just because it's pretty common with the high African American population here. I'd be nice to it, it's prob'ly worth something, even if only for its cultural value. Heather > - -Poster: Cynthia Virtue > > As an aside, on Anakin's bed is a dark pillow with cream colored > designs. You can see it on the star wars website in the "tour Anakin's > hovel" section. > > We have a piece of Moritanian "mud cloth" which is nearly identical to > the pillow. It is likely goat-wool, and the mud is used as a dye. My > guess is that you slather the wool with the mud and then use a tool to > scrape some of the mud off before it dyes the fabric; certainly the > designs on the stuff we have look free-hand. The designs are a dark > cream color; the rest is brown-black. The process must be fairly > color-fast, because there is no trace of actual mud on this textile, so > it's been washed at least once. We haven't test-washed it, as we're not > sure what to do with it, except keep it as a curiosity. leif drews [30,373]CSuX:velvet. Subject: H-COST: velvet. From: leif drews Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 11:30:58 +0200 -Poster: leif drews I am a little slow, have read all the questions this morning. About velvet for renaissance use. Yes velvet is particular right to use for Elizabethan costumes. Velvet was a very expensive material in those days, and very popular. I made a dress with a spanish farthingale in velvet that i dyed myself and it went very good. I used Dylon colours and i dyed it in my bathtub 10 meters. It was a light cotton velvet especially made to use for dyeing. Bjarne in Copenhagen. -- Leif Drews Åboulevard 5, 3 th 1635 København V Bjarne Drews Åboulevard 5,3.th 1635 København V tlf. 35 37 13 70 cynthia virtue [14,374]CSuX:mud cloth Subject: Re: H-COST: Mud cloth From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 08:28:31 -0400 -Poster: Cynthia Virtue Interesting! The stuff I have was brought back from Moritania about 10 years ago by my bro-in-law, who was in the Peace Corps. As you mention, it was originally woven in strips about 6" wide, which were then sewn together edge-to-edge, and dyed as a single piece. Interestingly, there is a different design on two of the strips than there is on the rest. So, to drag this back to historical... do you know if this stuff has been made for a long time? Do they use it in a particular type of outfit? cv dave;editors(heritage matters) [41,375]CSuX:sculptured velvet- gets everywhere and a plug Subject: Re: H-COST: Sculptured Velvet- gets everywhere and a plug From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 14:46:21 +0100 -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Thanks both to Carol and Heather for your appreciation of my tip. Re Paper Masks; yes I tried these but they blocked up fairly quickly but not quite as fast as my spectacles got covered up; I also tried the allover plastic face mask with changeable filters that I use for paint spraying and carving polystyrene ( another bitty job), but visibility soon became a problem on that. Its best to collect all of the free flying bits as soon as they are cut so the assistant need to keep the nozzle of the vacuum cleaner within an inch of where you are cutting/shaving. The nozzle gets covered quickly but it keeps it away from everything else. I cant remember the actual makeup of the velvet, perhaps there may be some where this isn't a problem; one day I might do some research; re Velvet in general; The City of Coventry was very likely producing producing velvet commercially during the time of the Black Prince, who may have promoted this amongst the clothiers of the city, part of which was within one of his manors. They were definitely experimenting with techniques ane equipment that could only produce a type of velvet. They were definitely producing it by the mid 1400s as there are many original sources and receipt books that mention it including (one of my favourite subjects this) a delivery of 6 yards of black velvet to one William Catesby who was supected of havig a hand in the death of the Princes in the Tower; Many years later two small bodies were found ;; guess what they were wrapped in? Re Heritage Matters; basically its a free subscription journal.We like to things its friendly. Its aimed at people who work in or make part of their living from any aspect of what we like to call the Leisure and Legacy industry (UK), which covers everything from guided tours to suppliers of museum equipment. You will find more about it on www.soft.net.uk/wysewords if you feel like looking; Thanks again; Dave LD MUNDY Editor Heritage Matters +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Wysewords New Cooperative. All sites being update this weekend; Look for the special link to the "Lost Heritage of Jugosalavia" +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ kat@grendal.rain.com[28,376]CSuX:sculptured velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Sculptured Velvet From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 08:30:47 +0000 -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > No longer have the original request on Sculptured Velvet, but wanted to share > a technique I saw at the HIA show in Dallas earlier this year. Someone was > taking deeply carved wooden stamps, face up, and placing rayon velvet over > the design. Then the design was steamed in with a steam iron, over a light > presscloth, I think. Then a flat board was put on it for a few seconds until > it cooled a bit. The result was an embossed flat, lustrous design in the > velvet. Their designs were limited, nothing I cared about, and they were > demonstrating using small pouches, so the design was only about 3.5" x 3.5". > I wish I had paid more attention! I saw some of these at the V&A textile room. Interesting enough, they were all woolen velvets (none that I saw were silks done that way.) They also had some silk satins which were "stamped, slashed and abraided" however. These were quite lovely and looked like more advanced styles than the slashed ones in Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion 1560-1620. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! cynthia bucheger [28,377]CSuX:sculptured velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Sculptured Velvet From: "Cynthia Bucheger" Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 13:36:08 -0500 -Poster: "Cynthia Bucheger" Merlyncc@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: Merlyncc@aol.com > > No longer have the original request on Sculptured Velvet, but wanted to share > a technique I saw at the HIA show in Dallas earlier this year. Someone was > taking deeply carved wooden stamps, face up, and placing rayon velvet over > the design. Then the design was steamed in with a steam iron, over a light > presscloth, I think. Then a flat board was put on it for a few seconds until > it cooled a bit. The result was an embossed flat, lustrous design in the > velvet. Their designs were limited, nothing I cared about, and they were > demonstrating using small pouches, so the design was only about 3.5" x 3.5". > I wish I had paid more attention! > > Carving the stamp would be the hardest part! > > Priscilla Schmitz My mother has recently been doing a technique much like this and if I am not mistaken she was using a rubber stamp. While she does carving of wood and other things, this was a store purchased stamp, a rose I believe. Perhaps something to be checked out at the local Hoibby Lobby or such places? I think that's where she got the idea to start with. trekona@erols.com[56,378]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: trekona@erols.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 99 20:09:22 GMT -Poster: trekona@erols.com > I have never been unable to get any publication I tried to interlibrary loan, > including foreign journals containing Janet Arnold's articles, and including > some very obscure and/or foreign publications. gee, all I can say is that you are lucky! There are plenty of books and articles that my libraries can't get. > Any member of the public can obtain full library > privileges from them, including borrowing and interlibrary loan, for a very > reasonable fee--if I recall, $20 and it's good for a year. dunno which universities you've got handy but the ones around me that I go to want $60 year! > What I'm getting at is, if one library can't or won't borrow what you want, > try a different library, particularly a university library. In my experience, > anything you want to borrow is in some library and can be borrowed from them > somehow. and sometimes this helps. My local library down the road can't even ILL a book that is at a university in the same county (and I know they had the book I wanted)! So I went to a library near where I work in a different county who got it from a third county which is right near both. Why could one library get it while another could not? Well aside from comments about competence levels, my local library is in a county that gets very little funding compared to the second library which is in a wealthy neighborhood. But even they have not been able to get me a number of items I'm looking for. One time I managed to find out that a couple NESAT (Northern European Symposium on Archaelogical Textiles) editions are in the Harvard library. But, Harvard doesn't lend out to any other library, doesn't even like having to let their own students take a book out of the premises (had a friend going to harvard who told me stories about the libraries there) and won't allow anyone without a harvard card in! So just because some library has it somewhere, doesn't mean you can still borrow it. > It is also amazing what you can buy, particularly now that the Internet makes > listings for used books and other publications so widely available. There is > a metasearch engine for some of the bigger ones: > http://www.bookfinder.com/ > I've been able to buy many publications I had assumed would be unavailable. Another time it cost me $15 to borrow a Swedish costume book through ILL (it came from Minnesota, and I guess they didn't really want to lend it out). I'm trying to buy it, but I can't find anyone who carries it! Amazon doesn't, Bookfinder, Bibliofind.. none of them. Don't get me wrong, I think ILL is great, and I really appreciate the effort that some of the librarians there have gone to find me my obscure books. But there's still a lot that I can't get even that way. I wish I had your luck in getting them. -Judy Mitchell (frustrated book searcher) pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[33,379]CSuX:ill Subject: H-COST: ILL From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:41:00 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <<> Any member of the public can obtain full library > privileges from them, including borrowing and interlibrary loan, for a very > reasonable fee--if I recall, $20 and it's good for a year. dunno which universities you've got handy but the ones around me that I go to want $60 year!>> To me, $60 a year seems reasonable for use of a university library if you have no other affiliation with the school (I know alumni at my college don't have to pay the $30 fee). How much do you spend on books every year? Does it come close to $60? <> Like most academic libraries, the harvard system is available to non-students, under some circumstances. You can't just walk in off the street, but you can get in. <> Have you considered how much staff time it took (at both libraries) to do the paperwork to get you that book? And how much the postage and insurance was? Doing research is not necessarily a free or easy type of work. lavolta press [65,380]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: Lavolta Press Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 13:57:18 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press > > > privileges from them, including borrowing and interlibrary loan, for a very > > reasonable fee--if I recall, $20 and it's good for a year. > dunno which universities you've got handy but the ones around me that I go > to want $60 year! It is a not-very-glamorous state university, which in itself has a so-so costume book collection. They will do ILL; but it's so hard to park there I took to using a public library, which I discovered is just as good.. But, I'd think if you wanted to borrow obscure costume books and your nearby university could get them for you, $60/year would be well worth it. > B> It is also amazing what you can buy, particularly now that the Internet makes > > listings for used books and other publications so widely available. There is > > a metasearch engine for some of the bigger ones: > > http://www.bookfinder.com/ > > I've been able to buy many publications I had assumed would be unavailable. > > Another time it cost me $15 to borrow a Swedish costume book through ILL > (it came from Minnesota, and I guess they didn't really want to lend it out). > I'm trying to buy it, but I can't find anyone who carries it! Amazon doesn't, > Bookfinder, Bibliofind.. none of them. But you did find it to borrow . . . did you try Fred Struthers? He carries a lot of foreign costume books, and I think I've bought one or two Swedish books from him. Amazon.com focuses on books published or distributed in the US, which means they are not a great source for foreign books. Sometimes it takes a long time to find a book you want. I bought one a few months ago I've been looking everywhere for, for something like seven or eight years. I've lost count, but it's been a very long time. But, I eventually got it from an Internet used bookseller. I think the strategy is, when a new costume book comes out that you want, buy it. In a couple years it may be out of print, harder to find, and more expensive. If the book is already out of print, the strategy is to always be on the lookout for it. > I wish I had your luck > in getting them. > > It's not luck, at all, or even money. It's persistence. And patience. And staying aware of where to buy books, and their current prices. I figure I'm not entitled to something just because I want it; and also, if I find it, that I'm not entitled to get it easy or cheap. And I'm not entitled to pirate it just because it's hard to find or expensive. The author's right to be paid for his/her work supercedes my desire to get a good book cheap. And libraries and publishers deserve compensation too. Fran --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm joan m jurancich [25,381]CSuX:suggestion on janet arnold s articles Subject: H-COST: Suggestion on Janet Arnold's articles From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:45:04 -0600 (MDT) -Poster: Joan M Jurancich This is especially directed to h-costume members who publish (or can publish) books. Has anyone (whether you or someone you know) ever considered trying to put together a book of articles by Janet Arnold? With all the discussion on this list about wanting to get copies of various articles, it seems that there might well be a reasonable demand. This would be especially useful for the _Waffen-und Kostumkunde_ articles. I have not been able, so far, to find a library that has the magazine; for ILL through the California State Library, I need to give them the location information. If anyone *has* found a library with the magazine, could you please either post it to the list or send it to me privately at joanj@quiknet.com . Thanks, Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com lavolta press [46,382]CSuX:suggestion on janet arnold s articles Subject: Re: H-COST: Suggestion on Janet Arnold's articles From: Lavolta Press Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:02:57 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press > This is especially directed to h-costume members who publish (or can > publish) books. > > Has anyone (whether you or someone you know) ever considered trying to put > together a book of articles by Janet Arnold? With all the discussion on this > list about wanting to get copies of various articles, it seems that there > might well be a reasonable demand. I haven't, because before Janet Arnold died various information and patterns from her articles was used in her non-anthology books. I'd assume this is also planned by her current publishers for her posthumous books. If I recall, for example, one of the journal articles is on ruffs and another has patterns for shirts and smocks. If those don't make it into the planned book on shirts, smocks, etc. I'd be very surprised. It takes a long time to publish a book, and Arnold's work was understandably slowed down by her illness. However, that doesn't mean nothing is being done with her already planned publications. > > > This would be especially useful for the _Waffen-und Kostumkunde_ articles. I > have not been able, so far, to find a library that has the magazine; for ILL > through the California State Library, I need to give them the location > information. If anyone *has* found a library with the magazine, could you > please either post it to the list or send it to me privately at > joanj@quiknet.com . > I've gotten it from Stanford University, though not recently. Fran --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm susan carroll-clark [34,383]CSuX:ill Subject: Re: H-COST: ILL From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 19:51:49 -0400 -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! >To me, $60 a year seems reasonable for use of a university library if you >have no other affiliation with the school (I know alumni at my college >don't have to pay the $30 fee). How much do you spend on books every year? >Does it come close to $60? > ><> I suggest in both circumstances to look at public universities (e.g. the state systems). I got the distinct impression that one of the reasons Ohio State lets anyone use their library is because they're state funded, and see it as an obligation to the community. Borrowing priveleges there are $40 a year, or free if you join the alumni association (which is currently $35, and gets you more than just library priveleges.) I'm happy to pay it--it's cheap for what I get. However, this certainly isn't universal. The University of Toronto's main library won't let anyone without a borrowing card into the stacks even to look at books on-site, and that costs over $100. Luckily, U of T is also made up of affiliated colleges, each with their own library, who are a little more relaxed about admission. And the best dedicated medieval studies library in the world is there--a non-circulating library which requires a pass for admittance--or just a chat with the library folks to tell them what you want to look at. Susan Carroll-Clark lynn meyer [42,384]CSuX:cotton velvet Subject: H-COST: Re: Cotton Velvet From: Lynn Meyer Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:52:44 -0700 -Poster: Lynn Meyer At 09:43 AM 6/12/99 -0600, you wrote: >From: Margo Anderson > >>I just happened to be at Exotic Silks in Palo Alto today and silk velvet >>looks remarkably similar to rayon velvet but the silk has a different >>hand to it. > >Unless things have changed in the year or so since I've visited there, the >"silk" velvet that Exotic Silks sells is actually a silk ground with rayon >pile. The first time I encountered this stuff, I thought it must be >mismarked--why on earth would they make the part that doesn't show out of >silk? It turns out it's for making that chemical burnout "devore" velvet >tht's been popular for the last few years. > >If Exotic Silks IS carrying pure silk velvet, please let me know, so that I >can order swatches....and mortgage my children, probably. > >Margo > >------------------------------ Aha! I *wondered* why they bothered with a silk backing.... now I know! By Exotic Silks, you mean the same store as Thai Silks, right? I believe they do business under both names -- maybe one is the mailorder and one is the storefront. If so, it's actually in Los Altos :-) (And for those of you farther away, they have a website at . Which lists only the rayon pile on silk backing for their velvet, if *it* is up-to-date.) My thanks to all the others who have taught me more about velvet, too! Both historic and practical! Lynn ---- Lynn Meyer, Mountain View, Bay Area, CA (Halima de la Lucha, Crosston, Mists, West) LMeyer@netbox.com seamstrix@juno.com[20,385]CSuX:what would mental assylum patients have worn from 17 Subject: Re: H-COST: What would mental assylum patients have worn from 17 From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 20:58:20 -0500 -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com I seem to have missed the original post about the clothing of mental patients. As a psychologist, I have studied the history of my profession (and some of the stuff will curl your hair!) and I know that during most of the 18th century in Bedlam the mental patients wore whatever they were committed in and when that rotted off their bodies it generally wasn't replaced. That was one of the titillating aspects which caused Bedlam to be such a tourist attraction. At the point of time that you are talking about the American asylums were experimenting with a more 'enlightened' approach which called for a large degree of normalization. I don't think that Bedlam was on the normalization track so conditions were probably not materially different from the time of Hogarth who did prints of Bedlam in his series "A Rakes Progress". I hope this was helpful. Karen carol j. bell cannon [13,386]CSuX:those round knotted buttons and mongolian attire Subject: H-COST: Those Round Knotted Buttons and Mongolian attire From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 19:37:49 -0700 -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" I was able to connect with a Lady who says that in the Medieval period, Mongols tied their dels and other garments and did not use buttons until after their invasions of China. She did not have her sources immediately to hand, so I don't have them. She was, however, trained by someone who was invited by the Mongolian Republic to come there, study and teach others about their history and culture, which offer the other lady took. So, thank you for all the information--I may use it for Chinese attire, but will put ties on anything Mongolian that I may make. I also passed this info. to the lady on whose behalf I originally asked the question. Gra/inne joan m jurancich [34,387]CSuX:ill Subject: Re: H-COST: ILL From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 21:32:32 -0600 (MDT) -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 07:51 PM 6/13/99 -0400, Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: > >-Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" > >I suggest in both circumstances to look at public universities (e.g. the >state systems). I got the distinct impression that one of the reasons Ohio >State lets anyone use their library is because they're state funded, and see >it as an obligation to the community. Borrowing priveleges there are $40 a >year, or free if you join the alumni association (which is currently $35, >and gets you more than just library priveleges.) I'm happy to pay it--it's >cheap for what I get. In my case, borrowing privileges at the university library do *not* include ILL privileges, those are reserved for staff and registered students. In the case of California, the public monies are not sufficient to expand some of the more labor-intensive activities like ILL to anyone not directly associated with the university. I *can* use the California State Library for ILL since I am an employee of the State of California (again, non-employees don't get ILL or book checkout privileges, though anyone can come in and use the books in the library). The powers that be have not considered the upkeep and services of the library to be worth increasing the budget for. We are now paying for the 20 years of assininity following Proposition 13 in 1978 (better get off the soapbox so I don't start hyper-ventilating). Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com joan m jurancich [34,388]CSuX:ill Subject: Re: H-COST: ILL From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 21:32:32 -0600 (MDT) -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 07:51 PM 6/13/99 -0400, Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: > >-Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" > >I suggest in both circumstances to look at public universities (e.g. the >state systems). I got the distinct impression that one of the reasons Ohio >State lets anyone use their library is because they're state funded, and see >it as an obligation to the community. Borrowing priveleges there are $40 a >year, or free if you join the alumni association (which is currently $35, >and gets you more than just library priveleges.) I'm happy to pay it--it's >cheap for what I get. In my case, borrowing privileges at the university library do *not* include ILL privileges, those are reserved for staff and registered students. In the case of California, the public monies are not sufficient to expand some of the more labor-intensive activities like ILL to anyone not directly associated with the university. I *can* use the California State Library for ILL since I am an employee of the State of California (again, non-employees don't get ILL or book checkout privileges, though anyone can come in and use the books in the library). The powers that be have not considered the upkeep and services of the library to be worth increasing the budget for. We are now paying for the 20 years of assininity following Proposition 13 in 1978 (better get off the soapbox so I don't start hyper-ventilating). Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com snowfire@mail.snet.net[37,389]CSuX:what would mental assylum patients have worn from 17 Subject: Re: H-COST: What would mental assylum patients have worn from 17 From: snowfire@mail.snet.net Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 23:58:35 -0400 -Poster: snowfire@mail.snet.net -Poster: Elysant I did not realise someone was looking for information on what mental patients wore in America in the 18th century! Sorry I must have missed that! I'm a psychiatric nurse here in Connecticut where the Institute of Living was the first Mental Hospital to be opened in the Colonies. I don't know when it opened it's doors, but it definately was around when during colonial times! >From day 1 it always advocated the humane approach to treating the patients, so for that reason, I would assume that they tried to dress the patients in as normal a style as possible, although I'm sure some of the clothes were far from the best for the poorer patients. Before the Intitute, the treatment of patients here in the Colonies vascillated between protecting the communites by locking the patients away in prisons and the like and throwing away the key, and protecting the patients' rights by various little residential programs that were set up but didn't last long. Don't know if this helps? Elysant As an aside. (Nothing to do with costuming, but interesting) I did my psychiatric training in Britain in an Asylum with a belfry. The reason for the belfry was that, as in the majority of the old asylums in Britain, whenever a patient ran away, the bell in the belfry would be rung to warn the staff as well as the people living in the surrounding area that one of the patients was on the loose. In some places, doing this set upset bats who who lived in the belfry, causing them to come flying out everywhere. This then is the origin of the saying "he's got bats in his belfry" when people sometimes describe a mental patient. pierre & sandy pettinger [29,390]CSuX:star wars Subject: H-COST: Star Wars From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 09:31:20 -0500 -Poster: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger >- -Poster: Margo Anderson > >I finally saw it, too. Loved the Queen's outfits, except that ruffled thing >at the end, but there were a few things that I wondered about: > >If a culture is so technologically advanced that they have sentient robots, >why are their textiles so slubby? > >And, why didn't they learn the Lesson Of Luke's Feathered Bangs and give >young Obi-wan a less mid 90's hairdo? That brush cut with the little braid >behind one ear looks dated already. > >The ways I can find to stall when I should be finishing the costume for >tomorrow... > >Margo Margo, RE slubbed fabric; one might ask why we can't make unslubbed fabric. The answer of course is we can. But slubbiness is not neccessarily a flaw or lack of ability. As time progresses, it becomes a fashion feature. People will make it because other people want it. Pierre ron carnegie [55,391]CSuX:what would mental assylum patients have worn from Subject: Re: H-COST: What would mental assylum patients have worn from From: Ron Carnegie Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 01:57:26 -0400 -Poster: Ron Carnegie At 11:58 PM 6/13/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: snowfire@mail.snet.net > >-Poster: Elysant > >I did not realise someone was looking for information on what mental >patients wore in America in the 18th century! Sorry I must have missed >that! I'm a psychiatric nurse here in Connecticut where the Institute of >Living was the first Mental Hospital to be opened in the Colonies. I >don't know when it opened it's doors, but it definately was around when >during colonial times! > >>From day 1 it always advocated the humane approach to treating the >patients, so for that reason, I would assume that they tried to dress the >patients in as normal a style as possible, although I'm sure some of the >clothes were far from the best for the poorer patients. Before the >Intitute, the treatment of patients here in the Colonies vascillated >between protecting the communites by locking the patients away in prisons >and the like and throwing away the key, and protecting the patients' >rights by various little residential programs that were set up but didn't >last long. > >Don't know if this helps? Eastern State, here in Virginia opened it's doors as the "Public Hosipital" in 1773. The modern hospital is still operating, though it probably will not much longer. The original hospital however has been rebuilt by Colonial Williamsburg. There is a museum within that discusses the history of mental health in Virginia. I would reccommend looking into it. A warning however, it is not pleasent. As far as treatment of mental health prior to these hospitals. Here in Virginia at least there were no true prisons at all. The public gaol in Williamsburg did apparently house some criminally insane, but most mentally ill were simply kept at home. There are rumours of this regarding a wife of Patrick Henry. Cheers, Ron Carnegie rcarnegie@widomaker.com ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* sue shatto [38,392]CSuX:sculptured velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Sculptured Velvet From: Sue Shatto Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 05:13:39 -0400 -Poster: Sue Shatto Pricilla, You don't have to carve a stamp. Buy a rubber stamp and go to it. works great! At 10:34 PM 6/12/99 EDT, you wrote: > >-Poster: Merlyncc@aol.com > >No longer have the original request on Sculptured Velvet, but wanted to share >a technique I saw at the HIA show in Dallas earlier this year. Someone was >taking deeply carved wooden stamps, face up, and placing rayon velvet over >the design. Then the design was steamed in with a steam iron, over a light >presscloth, I think. Then a flat board was put on it for a few seconds until >it cooled a bit. The result was an embossed flat, lustrous design in the >velvet. Their designs were limited, nothing I cared about, and they were >demonstrating using small pouches, so the design was only about 3.5" x 3.5". >I wish I had paid more attention! > >Carving the stamp would be the hardest part! > > >Priscilla Schmitz > > Cordially, Sue Shatto Sue@VictorianMillinery.com http://www.VictorianMillinery.com leif drews [140,393]CSuX:chafing and walking Subject: Re: H-COST: Chafing and walking From: leif drews Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:07:21 +0200 -Poster: leif drews --------------AA53ADEEC5E5ADE26122161C Beth skrev: > Could part of the problem simply be because of how we walk? > Someplace (wish I could remember where) I read that in the 1850's > women's legs swept out in a circular motion - to kick the full skirts > out of their way. One of the male arguments to Bloomer costume was > that women looked awkward walking in them because they did not swing > their legs straight front to back as men did. Now women - in modern > western dress- walk with their feet following a straight line from > front to back or swinging them towards a central line (swinging the > hips more and more as the feet push towards the center line). our > style of walk seems to push the thighs together. Does anyone have > information on how Elizabethan women walked? Or know someone who grew > up wearing a sari or other dress with no leg coverings? It would be > interesting to know if they walk differently from us sexy hip swinging > Americans. (clearly NOT describing myself) Beth > > Well i know nothing about the walk in Elizabethan England, but i have > participated in some danse lessons to learn renaissance danses. Karl > Heinz Taubert, a german professor has written a book about historical > danses called : "Höffiche Täntzer" > The renaissance danses are very lively and gay but also very slow and > dignified where you have some very slow and gratios, ballet like > movements. The curtis are also very elegant and slow. > The ladies had only their long chemise underneath the farthingale, > mostly they did not wear trousers (only the curtisans) so they were > very free to move underneath the hoop. > Etikette told them to be very gratious and elegant and not quickly in > their movements. > It is a very exciting subject, i sure would have liked to be a fly on > the wall in those days. > > > In the 18th. century Casanova writes how he catched his eyes on two > ladies at Versailles who was forsed to escape (They were at a place > where they didnt surposed to be) He writes that they grap their > enourmous hoops in their arms, knealed forward and jumped like > grasshoppers. Their fragile highhealed shoes was not built to run. > > > > > Bjarne in Copenhagen. -- Leif Drews Åboulevard 5, 3 th 1635 København V Bjarne Drews Åboulevard 5,3.th 1635 København V tlf. 35 37 13 70 --------------AA53ADEEC5E5ADE26122161C  

Beth skrev:

  Could part of the problem simply be because of how we walk? Someplace (wish I could remember where) I read that in the 1850's women's legs swept out in a circular motion - to kick the full skirts out of their way. One of the male arguments to Bloomer costume was that women looked awkward walking in them because they did not swing their legs straight front to back as men did. Now women - in modern western dress- walk with their feet following a straight line from front to back or swinging them towards a central line (swinging the hips more and more as the feet push towards the center line). our style of walk seems to push the thighs together. Does anyone have information on how Elizabethan women walked? Or know someone who grew up wearing a sari or other dress with no leg coverings? It would be interesting to know if they walk differently from us sexy hip swinging Americans. (clearly NOT describing myself) Beth

Well i know nothing about the walk in Elizabethan England, but i have participated in some danse lessons to learn renaissance danses. Karl Heinz Taubert, a german professor has written a book about historical danses called : "Höffiche Täntzer"
The renaissance danses are very lively and gay but also very slow and dignified where you have some very slow and gratios, ballet like movements. The curtis are also very elegant and slow.
The ladies had only their long chemise underneath the farthingale, mostly they did not wear trousers (only the curtisans) so they were very free to move underneath the hoop.
Etikette told them to be very gratious and elegant and not quickly in their movements.
It is a very exciting subject, i sure would have liked to be a fly on the wall in those days.
 

In the 18th. century Casanova writes how he catched his eyes on two ladies at Versailles who was forsed to escape (They were at a place where they didnt surposed to be) He writes that they grap their enourmous hoops in their arms, knealed forward and jumped like grasshoppers. Their fragile highhealed shoes was not built to run.
 
 
 

Bjarne in Copenhagen.

 

--
 

Leif Drews
Åboulevard 5, 3 th
1635  København V

Bjarne Drews
Åboulevard 5,3.th
1635 København V

tlf. 35 37 13 70

Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~DeeDee_Revia/1index.html
  --------------AA53ADEEC5E5ADE26122161C-- leif drews [34,394]CSuX:janet arnold. Subject: H-COST: Janet Arnold. From: leif drews Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:32:59 +0200 -Poster: leif drews If there are going to be published something about Elizabethan ruffs, i surely cant wait to get my hands into it. I have made many ruffs, but i have always been a little bothered wheather it was the correct way i made it. It seems to me that you can make it many ways, but witch way is the correct way? If Janet arnold has done some research here, i surely will look forward to get my hands to it. When i was at the W&A in London last month, there was some stage costumes exhibited for a Shakespeare play. The queens costume had a ruff very beautifull made. It had small tiny gold pins to hold the pleats in the ruff. It looked very right. This way it could quickly get washed again and starched. My ruffs have alwas been sewed at the pleats. Bjarne Drews in Copenhagen., -- Leif Drews Åboulevard 5, 3 th 1635 København V Bjarne Drews Åboulevard 5,3.th 1635 København V tlf. 35 37 13 70 lynnx@mc.net[20,395]CSuX:period mongol garb Subject: H-COST: Period Mongol garb From: lynnx@mc.net Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 06:29:55 -0700 -Poster: lynnx@mc.net > I was able to connect with a Lady who says that in the Medieval period, > Mongols tied their dels and other garments and did not use buttons > until after their invasions of China. That shows in the period miniatures (Persian, Indian) that I've seen: The del collar goes all the way to waist level on both sides, like a (real!) Japanese kimono. So they could just tie a sash around the waist like the Japanese obi. I don't think you need to *put* ties on a del (unless your friend says otherwise); you just use a belt or a long piece of silk as a sash. Does your friend happen to know (or have sources) about the cut and construction of the hat (looks like it has 2 brims) that both Ghengis and Kublai Khan wore in those two famous "head shot" portraits? It's been driving me nuts... :-) Heather trekona@erols.com[48,396]CSuX:ill Subject: Re: H-COST: ILL From: trekona@erols.com Date: Mon, 14 Jun 99 13:04:01 GMT -Poster: trekona@erols.com > To me, $60 a year seems reasonable for use of a university library if you > have no other affiliation with the school (I know alumni at my college > don't have to pay the $30 fee). How much do you spend on books every year? > Does it come close to $60? oh, I'm sure I spend more than that. But then, I have books I can *keep* forever at my disposal. the library seems to want them back! (funny, that ;-} ) Now I live two hours from the college I went to. And they have a wonderful library! Unfortunately a $60 fee on top of the 2hour drive (+tolls) to get a book and then return it 3 weeks later, and I still don't have the book to keep is a lot of money. U of Del doesn't seem to give alumni a break. U of MD is closer, but not as good/competent. > <> > > Like most academic libraries, the harvard system is available to > non-students, under some circumstances. You can't just walk in off the > street, but you can get in. My friend was telling me all sorts of stories about how the only reason they let their own students in was because they *had* too! The unfriendliness, evil stares, and all but strip-searching (apparently more than simple backpack searches that most do) left her not too thrilled with Harvard libraries. > > < (it came from Minnesota, and I guess they didn't really want to lend it out). > Have you considered how much staff time it took (at both libraries) to do > the paperwork to get you that book? And how much the postage and insurance > was? Oh I'm aware, especially now since Marc has elaborated for us (I always wondered how the libraries were able to do so much for just a .50 fee!). And most of my books came through with a $5 fee which I didn't begrudge. Even the librarians were apalled and amazed at the one that came in for $15! They felt it was excessive - I wasn't thrilled, but I *wanted* the book. > > Doing research is not necessarily a free or easy type of work. yup. I sure know that. I think my point was that while using ILL is a fabulous tool that can be a great help, just going to your local library isn't necessarily going to get you squat if the library has no funds and can't even find it's own University books! it's just not always that easy. -Judy Mitchell susan carroll-clark [31,397]CSuX:ill Subject: Re: H-COST: ILL From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:28:47 -0400 -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" -Greetings! >In my case, borrowing privileges at the university library do *not* include >ILL privileges, those are reserved for staff and registered students. In the >case of California, the public monies are not sufficient to expand some of >the more labor-intensive activities like ILL to anyone not directly >associated with the university. It's actually the same way with Ohio State, but their library system is *huge.* > I *can* use the California State Library for ILL since I am an employee of >the State of California (again, non-employees don't get ILL or book checkout >privileges, though anyone can come in and use the books in the library). I forgot to mention my in with ILL. From what I'm told, if I go and get a borrowing card at the State Library of Ohio (which is free), I get access to ILL through the OhioLink system (in other words, if an Ohio library--and that includes most of the university libraries) has it, I can ILL it for free. Susan Carroll-Clark lgreene [89,398]CSuX:price lowered on vintage clothing tour, and more! Subject: H-COST: Price Lowered on Vintage Clothing tour, and more! From: "LGreene" Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 15:29:54 +0200 -Poster: "LGreene" Hi all, Thought you might be interested in updated information about upcoming vintage tours: Price Lowered for Repackaged September Vintage Clothing Tour ------------------------------------------------------------ September is a great time to come to Paris, and now it'll be MUCH less expensive for you to join us for a Vintage Clothing Shopping Tour. Our September tour is now exclusively a tour of Paris, and the price has dropped to $1800 - that's $700 cheaper! The itinerary includes vintage clothing shopping at flea markets, boutiques and dealers, a private, behind-the-scenes tour of the Louvre (this was a big hit with our guests in April), a walking tour of Montmartre, a private tour of the Musee de l'Eventail (hand fan museum), four wonderful dinners in historic restaurants, and much more! For full details, please go to http://www.gildedagetours.com/VCParisII.htm. I expect this tour to fill up quickly, so please be sure to contact us at info@gildedagetours.com as soon as possible to get a reservation form. You can also go to http://www.gildedagetours.com/getinfo.htm to request a reservation form online! Places Still Available for Millenium New Year's Eve at Versailles Tour of Paris ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- If you are looking for the perfect way to spend the most auspicious New Year's Eve of any of our lifetimes, look no further! Join us for the party of the century, within the Palace of Versailles, an extravagant, sumptuous evening of dining, dancing, entertainment, fireworks and merriment in one of the most beautiful locations in the world. We have a limited number of places still available on this tour, which includes 5 days of fabulous dining in historic Paris restaurants, museum visits, touring, an evening at the Paris Opera Garnier, and then the fabulous Bal du Roy at Versailles, with luxury limousine transportation. Please contact us as soon as possible, since hotel rooms are becoming scarce for the end of the year in Paris! For more information on the tour, please go to http://www.gildedagetours.com/millenium.htm - click on the link "Prices and Details" at the top of the page for more detailed information. To request a reservation form, contact us at info@gildedagetours.com, or go to http://www.gildedagetours.com/getinfo.htm and make your request online! Waltz Ball Tour of Vienna in Planning Stages -------------------------------------------- We're just beginning to plan the tours for the year 2000, and this is one we especially want to do. If you think you might be interested in this tour, please contact us at info@gildedagetours.com and let us know, so we can be sure to send you updates as we have them. Please also help us decide if we should do this tour in early March or in June - early March has the bigger balls and the cheaper airfares, but June has the nicer weather - let us know your preferences! Tea Lover's Tour of Paris - also in planning for 2000 ----------------------------------------------------- When people think of taking tea, they usually think of London, but Paris is actually a FABULOUS place to take tea. There are many fascinating, unusual and beautiful places to imbibe your favorite Oolong or tisane, and we'll visit many of them, as well as visiting the best Parisian boutiques for BUYING exquisite and exotic teas and tea accessories from all over the world. Let us know what you think of this one, and whether you might be interested, and we'll keep you informed! Custom Tours - Design it Yourself, Your Dates, Your Itinerary! -------------------------------------------------------------- Check out the extremely cute kitty on the website homepage, who is sitting in a Paris cafe wondering "What shall I see today?" Let us help you put together the vintage Paris tour of your dreams - just let us know the dates you want to go, and what you'd like to do and see, and we'll take it from there! For more info, go to http://www.gildedagetours.com/custom.htm (the kitty is on that page, too). If you have any questions at all, or would like a reservation form sent to you, please don't hesitate to contact us at info@gildedagetours.com. Best regards, Lauriann Greene President, Gilded Age Tours --------------------------------------------- Gilded Age Tours: http://www.gildedagetours.com Unforgettable Vintage Vacations in Europe - Vintage Clothing Shopping, Legacy of Lace, Vintage and Swing Dance, Millenium New Year's Eve at Versailles. kat@grendal.rain.com[18,399]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 07:46:38 +0000 -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > But you did find it to borrow . . . did you try Fred Struthers? He carries a lot of > foreign costume books, and I think I've bought one or two Swedish books from him. > Amazon.com focuses on books published or distributed in the US, which means they are > not a great source for foreign books. There is Amazon.co.uk for at least English books. (Related company with a different focus.) I've gotten several books from them. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! lynn downward [31,400]CSuX:star wars costumes Subject: Re: H-COST: Star Wars costumes From: Lynn Downward Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:10:45 -0800 -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: Cynthia Virtue > >As an aside, on Anakin's bed is a dark pillow with cream colored >designs. You can see it on the star wars website in the "tour Anakin's >hovel" section. > >We have a piece of Moritanian "mud cloth" which is nearly identical to >the pillow. It is likely goat-wool, and the mud is used as a dye. My >guess is that you slather the wool with the mud and then use a tool to >scrape some of the mud off before it dyes the fabric; certainly the >designs on the stuff we have look free-hand. The designs are a dark >cream color; the rest is brown-black. The process must be fairly >color-fast, because there is no trace of actual mud on this textile, so >it's been washed at least once. We haven't test-washed it, as we're not >sure what to do with it, except keep it as a curiosity. > >cv Cynthia, I just finished reading an article is some magazine or another very recently - Threads? - about designing clothes with mudcloth in it. In this article, the author explains the process. If it wasn't Threads it was the magazine "Arts and Crafts" that used to be put together by Michael's Arts store. (IMO, it was much better when Michael's had it.) LynnD lavolta press [39,401]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: Lavolta Press Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:41:25 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: > -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > > > But you did find it to borrow . . . did you try Fred Struthers? He carries a lot of > > foreign costume books, and I think I've bought one or two Swedish books from him. > > Amazon.com focuses on books published or distributed in the US, which means they are > > not a great source for foreign books. > > There is Amazon.co.uk for at least English books. (Related company > with a different focus.) I've gotten several books from them. > > Yes, they are good for Americans to buy British books, and I do that if the books are not available on the American amazon.com website. Many books are co-published or co-distributed in both Britain and America, though. It is always cheaper, postage-wise, to buy from your home country. The foreign books that are harder to find in America are those published in languages other then English. I have found the German amazon site, but have not bought from them yet. Fran --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm linda thompson [19,402]CSuX:need a san diego seamster. Subject: H-COST: Need a San Diego Seamster. From: Linda Thompson Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:58:26 -0500 -Poster: Linda Thompson Hello all... I have a client in Kansas City that is having a Wedding at the Renaissance Festival in October. Her maid of honor is located in San Diego and can not come to Kansas City for fittings, etc for her costume for this. We are looking for someone who can sew her outfit. This is not going to be a historic re-enactment or anything. We are doing psuedo middle class/upper (no corset, just boning the bodice).. They are not going to be highly embellished. If you are interested or can pass this onto someone who might be we would be eternally grateful.. Thanks for your time..(Oh, and we provide fabric/trim/sketches/instructions etc..) Linda Thompson lthompsn@sound.net i. marc carlson [49,403]CSuX:ill Subject: H-COST: re: ILL From: "I. Marc Carlson" Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:16:40 -0500 -Poster: "I. Marc Carlson" < pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam)> >dunno which universities you've got handy but the ones around me that I go >to want $60 year!>> Ours was for many years $50. It's now $200, I believe. Alumni may get access for free. ><> >Like most academic libraries, the harvard system is available to >non-students, under some circumstances. You can't just walk in off the >street, but you can get in. It would be nice if they'd be a little less tight fisted on the ILL-end. They have some books I need. ><(it came from Minnesota, and I guess they didn't really want to lend it out). >> >Have you considered how much staff time it took (at both libraries) to do >the paperwork to get you that book? And how much the postage and insurance >was? $15 is a fairly standard fee. Most libraries just don't pass that along to the user (something I blame on Andrew Carnegie, the man who created the illusion of the "free" library). <"Susan Carroll-Clark" > >I suggest in both circumstances to look at public universities (e.g. the >state systems). I got the distinct impression that one of the reasons Ohio >State lets anyone use their library is because they're state funded, and see >it as an obligation to the community... Actually, I think it may BE an aboligation, not just a perceived one. > >In my case, borrowing privileges at the university library do *not* include >ILL privileges, those are reserved for staff and registered students. In the >case of California, the public monies are not sufficient to expand some of >the more labor-intensive activities like ILL to anyone not directly >associated with the university. And a number of libraries out and out stopped dealing with California libraries as their public funds have declined after P-13. Things appear to be better now, but for a while, they looked rather grim. Marc Carlson lynn downward [29,404]CSuX:sculptured velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Sculptured Velvet From: Lynn Downward Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:20:36 -0800 -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: Merlyncc@aol.com > >No longer have the original request on Sculptured Velvet, but wanted to share >a technique I saw at the HIA show in Dallas earlier this year. Someone was >taking deeply carved wooden stamps, face up, and placing rayon velvet over >the design. Then the design was steamed in with a steam iron, over a light >presscloth, I think. Then a flat board was put on it for a few seconds until >it cooled a bit. The result was an embossed flat, lustrous design in the >velvet. Their designs were limited, nothing I cared about, and they were >demonstrating using small pouches, so the design was only about 3.5" x 3.5". >I wish I had paid more attention! > >Carving the stamp would be the hardest part! > > >Priscilla Schmitz These stamps are available in some fabric stores. I've seen them at Poppy Fabrics in Oakland, CA, with directions available. They're really simple, rather large designs. The woman behind the counter said that any rubber stamp with an uncomplicated design could be used, so you could, with patience, even do very small designs all over a sleeve or bodice front. I can't remember the name of the company at all, sorry. LynnD yrsa @}-}--}-- [52,405]CSuX:sculptured velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Sculptured Velvet From: "Yrsa @}-}--}--" Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:21:26 -0600 (MDT) -Poster: "Yrsa @}-}--}--" >Pricilla, You don't have to carve a stamp. Buy a rubber stamp and go to it. works great! This morning show had velvet stamping on it . check out the web site and the instructions This is not todays show but it give you a good idea .. The woman that was on today was using thick wire cardboard cut outs pasted to cardboard , wood letters from crafts store She used starch instead of water ( to hold the fabric in place) You should have seen my 9 year old son's eyes looking at my green rayon velvet this morning and I telling me how nice of pouches it would make... Yrsa http://discovery.com/lifestyles/homematters/990528craft.html Velvet Stamping Materials: Velvet fabric -- Must be silk, rayon, acetate-rayon, or any combination of these fibers. Rayon-acetate gives the most dramatic results. Avoid nylon, polyester or any washable velvets. Iron Mister bottle with water Big and bold Hot Potato fabric stamps http://www.hotpotatoes.com/ -- Little detailed stamps get lost in the plush velvet. Hot Potatoes stamps are made with a special glue that allows our stamps to take the heat process. Instructions: Lightly mist either side of the fabric. I prefer to mist the back side but it really does not matter. Place the stamp image, rubber-side up, on your ironing board. Lay fabric right-side down against the stamp image. Now press the iron to the fabric and DO NOT move it. Count to 20 and lift the iron carefully. You might want to press again for 10 seconds, just for good measure. A little trial and error will make you an expert. For example, you will want to use the part of your iron where here are no steam holes. If you have a problem with steam holes showing, you may want to use a Teflon pressing cloth. You will also find it best not to move the iron. Just hold it in one place. Everyone that sees this fabric will want to touch it. It can be used for pillows, clothing, drapes and more. And it holds up to dry cleaning! -- Craft demonstrated by Home Matters guest Mary O'Neil from Hot Potatoes. marsha j. hamilton [40,406]CSuX:ill Subject: Re: H-COST: re: ILL From: "Marsha J. Hamilton" Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 15:11:51 -0400 -Poster: "Marsha J. Hamilton" >It would be nice if they'd be a little less tight fisted on the ILL-end. They >have some books I need. Studies in library literature show that the cost of lending a book through Inter-Library Loan is $30.00 to the lending institution in terms of costs and labor. VERY few libraries pass on the full or even partial cost to patrons. (The illusion of a "free" lunch.) >>I suggest in both circumstances to look at public universities (e.g. the >>state systems). I got the distinct impression that one of the reasons Ohio >>State lets anyone use their library is because they're state funded, and see >>it as an obligation to the community... The Ohio State University receives approx. 25% of its funding from the state of Ohio (most folks assume the percentage is much higher but it isn't.) The Libraries here have a tradition of flexible inter-library loan, mutual loan agreements with other institutions, and state-wide OhioLINK shared resources; not only because of our land-grant institution status but also because we have traditionally been at the forefront of resource sharing and automation of library holdings. Because it is a state-supported institution, everyone can walk into the Libraries and make use of materials on-site. Those who want borrowing privileges (and aren't associated with OSU) can pay a modest fee (c. $35.00) to become a Courtesy Card holder. On occasion, a lending library will refuse to loan a title if it is particularly expensive, rare, in fragile condition, non-circulating, or if the borrowing institution doesn't offer reciprocal ILL. And in general, public-supported institutions have fewer restrictions than private ones, but each library is different. leif drews [34,407]CSuX:newbee Subject: H-COST: Newbee From: leif drews Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:08:58 -0600 (MDT) -Poster: leif drews Hello i am a newbee to this list. I am a costume designer in Copenhagen, Denmark and i am looking forward to this list. My favourite periods are the 16th., 17th., and 18th. century. I am mainly doing upperclas costumes and i have some costumes on a display at an old manorhouse in Denmark. My homepage is not so good this minute, but it will run soon. Here you will be able to look at my work. Besides costuming, i am making much embroidery and lace (Chantilly lace and Tonder lace). talk to you later........ Bjarne Drews -- Leif Drews Åboulevard 5, 3 th 1635 København V Bjarne Drews Åboulevard 5,3.th 1635 København V tlf. 35 37 13 70 merouda the true of bornover [32,408]CSuX:cotton velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Cotton Velvet From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:00:38 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > The normal velvet we know was hardly > ever worn during the middle ages. Hmmm, there are many, many references to velvet being used for clothing in the 14th century in _Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince_ by Stella Mary Newton as well as elsewhere. Obviously this was worn by the nobility and royalty, but it was quite popular. There are pouches from this century that were embroidered velvet and there is even a lovely Masters head band enbroidered on tawny velvet (wish I could find that color!) In the wardrobe inventories mentioned above velvet was used for every item of a full suite of clothing from hoods to tunics to mantles. I have seen more extant pieces of plain/normal velvet than of brocaded or embossed velvet. Some of the suites consister or 5-7 different grments all in the same color of velvet. I don't know about the original poster, but if she plays in the SCA, her wearing velvet (we're all assumed to be nobility in the SCA although some folks opt for middle/lower class for tourney season) would be most appropriate imho. And yes, I would make a houppeland out of wool (I have actually). I would use velvet for Italian Rennaisance, Elizabethan, and 14th century gothic for sure, no problem. -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir megan & david schmidt [13,409]CSuX:early tudor fakings Subject: H-COST: early tudor fakings From: Megan & David Schmidt Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:58:22 -0500 -Poster: Megan & David Schmidt Would an early Turdor dress have had sleeve and underskirt fakings for reasons of cost, or comfort? Would the wealthy have used the fakings to make the garment more comfortable? Or would they not have used them at all? Megan VERY much a novice, but having fun. cynthia virtue [19,410]CSuX:cotton velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Cotton Velvet From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:34:54 -0400 -Poster: Cynthia Virtue Merouda the True of Bornover wrote: > but it was quite popular. There are pouches from this century that were > embroidered velvet and there is even a lovely Masters head band enbroidered on > tawny velvet Pray tell, what is a "Masters headband?" Enquiring costumers want to know! Thanks, cv -- "Of the heads of mice being burned is made that excellent powder, for scouring and cleansing of the teeth called 'tooth-soape', unto which if spikenard [lavendar] be added or mingled, it will take away any filthy scent or stronge savour in the mouth." -- Edward Topsell's 'History of Four-Footed Beasts', 1607 merouda the true of bornover [20,411]CSuX:cotton velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Cotton Velvet From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:42:11 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover I saw it in _Elizabethan Embroidery_ by George Winfield Digby. It is a "headband" worn around the forehead that is heavily embroidered with silks and metals. You can see the tawny velvet (I have seen it in color but can't remember the publication dang it, this picture is only b/w) between the motifs. Text states that the Master's headband was worn by Masters in their trade, such as gold work or tailoring. Very cool. Cynthia > Pray tell, what is a "Masters headband?" Enquiring costumers want to know! -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir seamstrix@juno.com[20,412]CSuX:early tudor fakings Subject: Re: H-COST: early tudor fakings From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:28:33 -0500 -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com The only thing that I can think of which was done in period and might be considered a 'faking' was that the front panel of the underskirt was made from the expensive/decorated material and the rest of the skirt was made from a plain, coordinating fabric. Since the front panel was the only part that showed, they only spent the extra money on that bit. As to the undersleeves and such, they were all part of complete garments, they wouldn't have been 'faked', in my opinion, because according to Tudor thought, you needed all the parts to be fully dressed. I don't wear early Tudor, but I do wear Elizabethan on a regular basis and once you get used to wearing all the stuff, it doesn't feel nearly as cumbersome as you might think. Your body adjusts. And it can also give some great insight as to why certain things were done or not done in period, the clothing can make certain actions or movements either more beautiful or very clumsy. Karen margo anderson [9,413]CSuX:need a san diego seamster. Subject: Re: H-COST: Need a San Diego Seamster. From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:14:52 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson Try Black Swan costumes at historicenterprises@pacbell.net. She may be too busy getting set for Pensic, but she could probably give you a local referral. Margo lois [19,414]CSuX:more books Subject: H-COST: more books From: Lois Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:23:35 +0000 -Poster: Lois Just listed a couple of *goody* books on ebay: Embroidery & tapestry http://cgi-new.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=116572579 Peterson's Magazine 1864 http://cgi-new.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=117557031 Will be adding more.l Lois -- Lois Mueller Wooden Porch Books books@woodenporch.com missmela@aol.com[6,415]CSuX:need a san diego seamster. Subject: Re: H-COST: Need a San Diego Seamster. From: MissMela@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:37:04 EDT -Poster: MissMela@aol.com For a San Diego Stitcher, try Diane Barr at 619 941 3582. She owns Rose Dezigns and they do bridal katharine whisler [49,416]CSuX:master s headband, was cotton velvet Subject: H-COST: Master's Headband, was Cotton Velvet From: KATHARINE WHISLER Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 21:59:00 -0500 -Poster: Cynthia Virtue > I find that if I don't wear undies I don't chafe. Plain and simple. Considering that this also saves you from a host of other female problems, it's probably worth trying! I was, however intrigued by the "type of walking posture" someone mentioned. I noticed today, as I approached a glass door, that I walk and stand with my anklebones nearly touching, despite being, er, rubenesque. I tried to walk more bow-legged and it was quite comical, but perhaps if one did it regularly.... -Poster: KATHARINE WHISLER >- -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > >I saw it in _Elizabethan Embroidery_ by George Winfield Digby. It is a >"headband worn around the forehead that is heavily embroidered with >silks and metals. You can see the tawny velvet (I have seen it in color >but can't remember the publication >dang it, this picture is only b/w) between the motifs. Text states that >the Master's headband was worn by Masters in their trade, such as gold >work or tailoring. Very cool. Cynthia > >> Pray tell, what is a "Masters headband?" Enquiring costumers want to >>know! For the benefit of those readers who don't have ready access to 75). It is a crown of what looks to me a good 1 1/2" to 2" in height, with no projections. According to the book, at the time it was written (1963) the crowns of the Carpenters, Girdlers, Broderers, and Parish Clerks guilds were still in use for guild ceremonies. The crowns were "used for crowning the masters at ceremonies of the Courts of the Livery Companies of London." The pictured crown dates from the late 16th century, and belongs to the Broderer's guild. It is velvet embroidered in silver & gold thread, colored silk, and pearls. Cynthia, please try to remember where you saw the color picture! I bought _Art of Dress_ on the strength alone of the color picture of the purple sweet bag shown in Digby in b&w. --Katharine Whisler robin netherton [45,417]CSuX:publication of kalamazoo papers (was: janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article) Subject: H-COST: Publication of Kalamazoo papers (was: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article) From: Robin Netherton Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 23:03:23 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: Robin Netherton On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, 6hbn-sec wrote: > I read with interest Robin Netherton's messages > about the Conference in Kalamazoo, and was disappointed (not surprised or > angry) to learn that these very interesting presentations will probably not > be available to most of the non-academics among us because they are awaiting > publication somewhere(unless Robin and the others tell us where they are > being published, and how to get them). Sigh. Don't I wish I had copies of all the papers I've heard at K'zoo over the last 15 years that had some costume references in them. Sometimes you can request a copy of the paper from the presenter, but most of the time it's lost forever, unless you take notes. My own "papers" are actually in lecture format and not suitable for distribution; the summary I posted to the list of this year's talk was the closest that bit of research has ever come to written form, and that may be the closest it ever gets. However... my colleague Gale Owen-Crocker, who is in a much better position to put together publications than I am (and who, as a university professor, is expected to do so), has edited a collection of 15 costume papers that have been presented at K'zoo over the last few years -- that's not all of them, but it's a goodly number. We have it the manuscript out to a publisher for review right now. Cross your fingers that they agree to publish it. If so, I'll let you know when it comes out, and how to get it. In any case, publication will take a while; although all the text is written, we still have to do things like get permissions for illustrations. That will be a pricey proposition for me, as I don't have a university to subsidize costs like that, so I must pay out of my own pocket for the various pictures I really need to include with my two articles. As a professional journalist, I've seen photo permissions run as much as $200 each routinely, so the cost can become prohibitive unless I can get a better rate because this would be a limited-run scholarly publication. If I can't get affordable permissions, or if I can't get access to specific images (some of the pictures I need are from manuscripts in foreign libraries), I will have to redraw some of them. I know redrawings are inferior, but it's better than nothing at all. --Robin holliday, rachel {disc~welwyn} [15,418]CSuX:long linen fibers Subject: RE: H-COST: Re: long linen fibers From: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:31:52 +0200 -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" > Another revelation--"linen" is the > generic name for fibers made from (word I can't >remember that means long > woody/grassy type plants). A lot of cloth was made >from hemp linen. Just >thought I'd pass this on. I think the term you are looking for is flax. Rachel franchesca havas [43,419]CSuX:anst - chain mail Subject: H-COST: Fw: ANST - Fwd: chain mail From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 21:20:40 -0500 -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" I cannot remember who ask for the fake chain/chain wire cloth but here is a lead. Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas -----Original Message----- From: Krzysztof Kopernik To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG Date: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 9:06 PM Subject: ANST - Fwd: chain mail :I received this to my vscribe@ansteorra.org address and thought maybe someone :might be interested. :Krzysztof : :> :> From: "Mysticz" :> To: :> Subject: chain mail :> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 17:48:13 -0500 :> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 :> :> I am part of a company that sells wire cloth and wire. my boss is looking to :> expand beyond the confines that he is in. do you know of any orgizations or :> people that make or would like to make their own chain mail and would like :> the wire. Our prices vary from $2-8 a pound. with a 5 pound min. please :> e-mail me back with any info. I also have samples for those who are :> interested......rikki : : : merouda the true of bornover [27,420]CSuX:master s headband, was cotton velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Master's Headband, was Cotton Velvet From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 08:43:53 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > For the benefit of those readers who don't have ready access to > Digby: This makes more sense if you think of it as it is described in the > text, not a "headband" but a "Master's Crown." Thank you so much for the extra info! > Cynthia, please try to remember where you saw the color picture! I > bought _Art of Dress_ on the strength alone of the color picture of the > purple sweet bag shown in Digby in b&w. Believe me, I'm racking my brain over this. Can't figure out why I didn't take a copy. :} Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir lynn downward [50,421]CSuX:publication of kalamazoo papers (was: janet arnold s Subject: Re: H-COST: Publication of Kalamazoo papers (was: Janet Arnold's From: Lynn Downward Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 08:58:27 -0800 -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: Robin Netherton > >However... my colleague Gale Owen-Crocker, who is in a much better >position to put together publications than I am (and who, as a university >professor, is expected to do so), has edited a collection of 15 costume >papers that have been presented at K'zoo over the last few years -- that's >not all of them, but it's a goodly number. We have it the manuscript out >to a publisher for review right now. Cross your fingers that they agree to >publish it. If so, I'll let you know when it comes out, and how to get it. > >In any case, publication will take a while; although all the text is >written, we still have to do things like get permissions for >illustrations. That will be a pricey proposition for me, as I don't have a >university to subsidize costs like that, so I must pay out of my own >pocket for the various pictures I really need to include with my two >articles. As a professional journalist, I've seen photo permissions run as >much as $200 each routinely, so the cost can become prohibitive unless I >can get a better rate because this would be a limited-run scholarly >publication. If I can't get affordable permissions, or if I can't get >access to specific images (some of the pictures I need are from >manuscripts in foreign libraries), I will have to redraw some of them. I >know redrawings are inferior, but it's better than nothing at all. > >--Robin > Robin, Thanks for explaining the publishing process to the list. I don't think that everyone really can understand the process until they've seen it or heard it described. I work with scientists who try to put out papers every couple of months on their research. At least for them, most of the illustrations are their own so there's no huge charge for them, and there are a huge variety of scientific journals where they can have their work published, rather than only the handful of scholarly journals for our topics. But the process in science does often take three months or more, between reviewers, rewrites and the simple problem of making sure that the proofs are correct in spelling and the correct label goes to the correct figure. Plus there are page charges - per page - plus extra payment for any color illustrations. This isn't exactly the same as publishing the lectures or manuscripts in historic topics, but quite similar. Again, thanks for explaining it. LynnD andrea gideon [10,422]CSuX:women s elizabethan doublets Subject: H-COST: women's elizabethan doublets From: "Andrea Gideon" Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 12:44:28 -0400 -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" I'm trying to make a pattern for a high-necked Elzabethan bodice and can't seem to make it look right above the top of the corset. Does anyone have any suggestion? Andrea joel thompson [11,423]CSuX:early men s tunics Subject: H-COST: early men's tunics From: "Joel Thompson" Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:02:14 -0400 -Poster: "Joel Thompson" Hello everyone My name is Alianora, and I've been lurking in the background for a while now. I'd like to say thanks everybody for all of the great info presented here daily. A lot of it has really changed my perceptions and appreciation for all that bookwriters and publishers do. And, I really appreciate the documentation and resource links to get the things that I need to make my garb both correct and "finished". I have a question that I hope that you can help me with. My medieval group does a much earlier time period, and we have several Viking personas. With the weather getting *hotter* every day, the question has come up about sleeveless tunics for the men. I have many good books on Vikings, and haven't been able to find any documentation to allow this. Does anyone know if this is a documented style? I can't find where it was done at all past the Romans and the Celts. I welcome your thoughts, please. Alianora henk t jong [43,424]CSuX:graves excavated at the augustinian friary in hull Subject: Re: H-COST: Graves excavated at the Augustinian Friary in Hull From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:20:19 +0200 -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi all, Wanda wrote: > I've been reading back issues of British Archaeology > (http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba.html) online and the February 1995 > issue has an article about the excavation of the graveyard of the > Augustinian Friary in Hull. The article is particularly excited about > the fact that the wet conditions had preserved the oak coffins, and > even the brains within the skulls. In addition the wet conditions had > preserved quite a bit of clothing from the period: > > "The waterlogged conditions at the site also preserved oak coffins and > one of the finest collections of medieval everyday clothing yet found, > including several complete tunics." > > {snip} > > "The most spectacular item of clothing found at the site was a > complete leather `girdle' on a female skeleton (a belt looped round > the waist with a long strap dangling to the ankles), a court fashion > garment in the late 13th and early 14th centuries which has not > previously been found in such good condition." Sounds a lot like the conditions under which the graveyard of the Minorite Friary in Dordrecht was excavated in the early 80's. There were corpses complete with coffins and brains and hair too. Not too much cloth though. > > Has anyone seen anything more about this excavation, or does anyone > have any newer information, like what is happening with the > conservation of the clothing and other articles? I'm interested too, especially if the results are published somewhere. Henk margo anderson [19,425]CSuX:women s elizabethan doublets Subject: Re: H-COST: women's elizabethan doublets From: Margo Anderson Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:39:55 -0800 (PST) -Poster: Margo Anderson At 12:44 PM 6/15/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > >I'm trying to make a pattern for a high-necked Elzabethan bodice and can't >seem to make it look right above the top of the corset. Does anyone have >any suggestion? > >Could you elaborate a bit? what doesn't look right? Are there wrinkles, puckers, etc, at certain points? Is it pulling off-grain? Information like this will make it easier for us to help you. Margo i. marc carlson [17,426]CSuX:ill Subject: Re: H-COST: re: ILL From: "I. Marc Carlson" Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:16:13 -0500 -Poster: "I. Marc Carlson" <"Marsha J. Hamilton" > >>It would be nice if they'd be a little less tight fisted on the ILL-end. >>They have some books I need. > Studies in library literature show that the cost of lending a > book through Inter-Library Loan is $30.00 to the lending institution > in terms of costs and labor. VERY few libraries pass on the full > or even partial cost to patrons. (The illusion of a "free" lunch.) Why thank you, you are entirely correct. The above was intended as a bit of a humorous aside pointing out that *even* ILL professionals sometimes are not able to get the research materials they try for, even for themselves. Marc Carlson jean waddie [56,427]CSuX:graves excavated at the augustinian friary in hull Subject: Re: H-COST: Graves excavated at the Augustinian Friary in Hull From: Jean Waddie Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:34:34 +0100 -Poster: Jean Waddie Another interesting recent discovery has been made by the Museum of London (see their website). They have found a medieval fish-farm of three large tanks, which stopped being used in the 16th century, and were then filled with rubbish, so we can hope for some good Tudor finds preserved in the damp conditions. Jean >-Poster: "Henk 't Jong" > >Henk & Pauline 't Jong >tScapreel >Medieval Advisors >Dordrecht, Netherlands > >Hi all, > >Wanda wrote: >> I've been reading back issues of British Archaeology >> (http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba.html) online and the February 1995 >> issue has an article about the excavation of the graveyard of the >> Augustinian Friary in Hull. The article is particularly excited about >> the fact that the wet conditions had preserved the oak coffins, and >> even the brains within the skulls. In addition the wet conditions had >> preserved quite a bit of clothing from the period: >> >> "The waterlogged conditions at the site also preserved oak coffins and >> one of the finest collections of medieval everyday clothing yet found, >> including several complete tunics." >> >> {snip} >> >> "The most spectacular item of clothing found at the site was a >> complete leather `girdle' on a female skeleton (a belt looped round >> the waist with a long strap dangling to the ankles), a court fashion >> garment in the late 13th and early 14th centuries which has not >> previously been found in such good condition." > >Sounds a lot like the conditions under which the graveyard of the Minorite >Friary in Dordrecht was excavated in the early 80's. There were corpses >complete with coffins and brains and hair too. Not too much cloth though. >> >> Has anyone seen anything more about this excavation, or does anyone >> have any newer information, like what is happening with the >> conservation of the clothing and other articles? > >I'm interested too, especially if the results are published somewhere. > >Henk -- Jean Waddie andrea gideon [25,428]CSuX:women s elizabethan doublets Subject: Re: H-COST: women's elizabethan doublets From: "Andrea Gideon" Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:58:40 -0400 -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > >I'm trying to make a pattern for a high-necked Elzabethan bodice and can't > >seem to make it look right above the top of the corset. Does anyone have > >any suggestion? > > > >Could you elaborate a bit? what doesn't look right? Are there wrinkles, > puckers, etc, at certain points? Is it pulling off-grain? > > Information like this will make it easier for us to help you. > > Margo It pulls at the tops of the corset and is real loose from there to the neck. I've tried to take it in, but is then uncomfortable. I'm large busted with a very small frame, but wear my corset so that my breasts are smashed down under it, rather than having pushed up top. The only women I've seen wearing high-necked Elizabethan are small busted. Can well endowed women wear this style or am I stuck with the squared necked bodice? Andrea brian and julie schuck [23,429]CSuX:need a san diego seamster Subject: H-COST: Need a San Diego Seamster From: Brian and Julie Schuck Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:53:58 -0500 -Poster: Brian and Julie Schuck I submitted your question to the sewbiz group. Here's a response: Here's someone in San Diego who might help you -- her name's Elaine Reick. I just know her from the Pfaff lists, haven't seen her work in person, just online. Her email address is erieck@home.com. She may or may not recognize my name from the Pfaff lists though we've emailed each other before. Good luck! Karen jklobo@aol.com Hope this helps! Julie lynn downward [42,430]CSuX:women s elizabethan doublets Subject: Re: H-COST: women's elizabethan doublets From: Lynn Downward Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 12:05:44 -0800 -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > > >> >I'm trying to make a pattern for a high-necked Elzabethan bodice and >can't >> >seem to make it look right above the top of the corset. Does anyone have >> >any suggestion? >> > >> >Could you elaborate a bit? what doesn't look right? Are there wrinkles, >> puckers, etc, at certain points? Is it pulling off-grain? >> >> Information like this will make it easier for us to help you. >> >> Margo > >It pulls at the tops of the corset and is real loose from there to the neck. >I've tried to take it in, but is then uncomfortable. I'm large busted with >a very small frame, but wear my corset so that my breasts are smashed down >under it, rather than having pushed up top. The only women I've seen >wearing high-necked Elizabethan are small busted. Can well endowed women >wear this style or am I stuck with the squared necked bodice? >Andrea > Andrea, My current Renaissance fair costume (northern California fair) is a doublet, and I'm usually a size 18-20. It isn't the closed doublet, but the open-necked style. I also try to keep myself pushed down rather than up. I don't think I look TOO bad in the doublet. The only reason I didn't answer your original question is that a professional costumer draped my doublet for me, so I'm clueless. There are no darts at the shoulder and it is not princess-seamed. All the fitting is in the seam where the facing and the body of the doublet meet. I hope this helps a bit. LynnD genevieve de courtanvaux [47,431]CSuX:women s elizabethan doublets Subject: Re: H-COST: women's elizabethan doublets From: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 18:39:40 -0500 -Poster: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" I made one in this style last year and didn't have a hard time fitting it. I am also well endowed so I don't believe that this is your problem. Have you modeled your pattern after the Janet Arnold patterns for this style? On the front of the bodice it comes out (the center front is not a straight line) a bit where your breasts should be slightly swelling out of your corset. That is my first guess as to what may be wrong with your pattern. Carol Ross -----Original Message----- From: Andrea Gideon To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 1:56 PM Subject: Re: H-COST: women's elizabethan doublets > >-Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > > >> >I'm trying to make a pattern for a high-necked Elzabethan bodice and >can't >> >seem to make it look right above the top of the corset. Does anyone have >> >any suggestion? >> > >> >Could you elaborate a bit? what doesn't look right? Are there wrinkles, >> puckers, etc, at certain points? Is it pulling off-grain? >> >> Information like this will make it easier for us to help you. >> >> Margo > >It pulls at the tops of the corset and is real loose from there to the neck. >I've tried to take it in, but is then uncomfortable. I'm large busted with >a very small frame, but wear my corset so that my breasts are smashed down >under it, rather than having pushed up top. The only women I've seen >wearing high-necked Elizabethan are small busted. Can well endowed women >wear this style or am I stuck with the squared necked bodice? >Andrea > > albertcat@aol.com[48,432]CSuX:women s elizabethan doublets Subject: Re: H-COST: women's elizabethan doublets From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 20:08:48 EDT -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 6/15/99 2:52:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, andrea.gideon@erols.com writes: << It pulls at the tops of the corset and is real loose from there to the neck. I've tried to take it in, but is then uncomfortable. I'm large busted with a very small frame, but wear my corset so that my breasts are smashed down under it, rather than having pushed up top. The only women I've seen wearing high-necked Elizabethan are small busted. Can well endowed women wear this style or am I stuck with the squared necked bodice? Andrea >> In Jean Hunnisett's book she puts a horizontal dart at the level of the top of the corset....keeping the CF on the straight of grain below the dart, which throws it off grain from that point up to the neck. This enables you to fit the upper part smoothly. HOWEVER...I always associate this with 18th century dress making....for riding coats & the like. You can see it use for an 18th riding habit in Janet Arnold's book. For an Elizabethan solution I would look to Janet Arnold again. In her book there are jackets with curved CFs. Starting at the neck they curve out to accommodate the bust & then curve back in at the waist. This works because the corset should be compressing & pushing the breast down [just like you mentioned]....as opposed to an 18th century corset which lifts & pushes the breasts forward. The compressed breast will enable a shallower CF curve that will smooth out over the corset & the upper chest area to a snug neck. Also, a little ease at the forefront of the curve helps....not enough to see mind you. It's best with a curved CF not to let it overlap too much. Usually I believe the CFs butt up next to each other, a separate straight strip is attached to one side [we'll say the Right as a bodice like this would close like a man's garment left over right, in this period] ....attached to the right side as an underlap for the buttons to go on. The button holes on the left side are then placed very very close to the CF edge. When buttoned up, the buttons end up a little left of center, but that's that period look! Line the doublet bodice with something sturdy but supple, like denim or medium weight twill. Also seen in Janet Arnold is boning in the front pieces of the doublet bodice. 4 or 5 bones fan out from the CF point on either side. The longest [to about bust point level] are close to the CF [either side of the opening] & they get shorter as they fan out. Have fun! joan m jurancich [26,433]CSuX:long linen fibers Subject: RE: H-COST: Re: long linen fibers From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:24:26 -0600 (MDT) -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 01:31 PM 6/15/99 +0200, Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn} wrote: > >-Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" > >> Another revelation--"linen" is the >> generic name for fibers made from (word I can't >>remember that means long >> woody/grassy type plants). A lot of cloth was made >from hemp linen. >Just >>thought I'd pass this on. > >I think the term you are looking for is flax. >Rachel The generic word you are searching for is "bast"; bast fibers are those from the stems (including inner barks). Flax is one example, but hemp and nettle are also bast fibers. Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com steve & michelle plumb [117,434]CSuX:a tudor rubbish dump discovered! Subject: H-COST: A Tudor rubbish dump discovered! From: "Steve & Michelle Plumb" Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 22:02:44 -0400 -Poster: "Steve & Michelle Plumb" London fish tank reveals everyday life of Tudors BY DALYA ALBERGE, ARTS CORRESPONDENT THE discovery of a huge Tudor rubbish dump is giving historians their best insights yet into the lives of the Londoners of the day. Archaeologists from the Museum of London have unearthed thousands of objects dating from the 1480s to the early 1600s at a two-acre site around Tooley Street, on the south side of Tower Bridge. Shoes and spoons, toys and tools offer rare glimpses into the lifestyles of all strata of society. Objects considered too insignificant to have been recorded in documents or paintings now reveal what Tudor Londoners ate, what they threw away, how they dressed and how they played. Until the site was found, relatively little archaeological evidence had been discovered. "What we've found has proved we didn't know half as much as we thought," said Simon Thurley, the museum's director. Among more than 400 leather shoes are some that are perfectly preserved and as modern in design as anything for sale today in Knightsbridge. A pair of stylish black suede shoes with leather laces and an elegant buckle might have been made yesterday. To judge from some of the styles, Tudor Londoners were prepared to suffer for fashion: one pair of shoes stuffed with moss to stiffen the curled point would have been less than comfortable. Dr Thurley said that never before had so many Tudor objects been found together in such closely dateable deposits and in such a fine state of preservation. The dump was discovered during excavations for a new hotel complex two months ago. Its contents were preserved in the waterlogged remains of a Tudor fish farm in an area that was, from medieval times, home to the wealthy and influential. The objects were thrown into the disused fish tanks about 1560, when the property, known then as the Pike Garden, was sold. Others were thrown into a nearby sewer that was closed in 1610. Dave Saxby, an archaeologist with the museum who is supervising the search for artefacts, said: "If you excavate any site in London, you're lucky to get one shoe or one knife. The majority have broken bits of pottery and animal bone. Here they are in mint condition, like the day they were thrown in." The finds portray all levels of society on London's South Bank, from the wealthy with their padded armour to the poor with their worn pewter spoons. Pottery tankards and a bottle in a wicker basket point to the taverns for which Southwark was famous. Many of the pots were imported and a piece of Chinese porcelain is the earliest example found in London. Also extracted from the detritus was a delicate comb, which has a circular indentation that may have held a mirror. Vessels such as a huge copper cauldron in which people would have cooked are almost intact. Other discoveries include rare armour; perfectly preserved tools, including a sickle, spade and shovel; and a musical instrument thought to be a bagpipe. There is also a dagger; part of a saddle; an intricate leather fringe that may be from a belt; children's toys, including a whistle; a wooden bowls ball; part of a window shutter; and, of course, the banana. Taryn Nixon, the head of the museum's archaeolgical services department, said that the objects conjure up "thriving industries of Tudor Southwark . . . people going in and out of the ale-houses, the leather workers taking orders from the finely turned out gentleman with his metal outer corset, and perhaps even someone turning up their nose at the thought that this curious soft, yellow food - well, no, probably quite black and rotten - was to be eaten." Dr Thurley said that the museum was keen to put the finds on show as soon as possible. www.museumoflondon.org.uk where museums are, contents, opening hours =========================================================== Steve & Michelle Plumb -- splumb@ic.net Plymouth, Michigan USA "Gstaad. Today, a paradise in the Alps. Tomorrow, a wasteland. Compared to Clouseau, Atilla the Hun was a Red Cross Volunteer." -- Herbert Lom, in "Return of the Pink Panther" =========================================================== i. marc carlson [13,435]CSuX:footwear of the middle ages update Subject: H-COST: Footwear of the Middle Ages update From: "I. Marc Carlson" Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 22:37:43 -0500 -Poster: "I. Marc Carlson" You may pass this along to anyone you might think is interested. A nice chunk of the updated text pages, and two of the shoe pages are in place. Please let me know what you think The shoes are the Side laced boots and shoes (SHOE25.HTM) and the Toggle Latchet Ankle Boot (SHOE36.HTM), both under High Middle Ages. The URL is "http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/carlson/SHOEHOME.HTM" Marc gerekr@aol.com[32,436]CSuX:ill Subject: Re: H-COST: re: ILL From: Gerekr@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 01:48:08 EDT -Poster: Gerekr@aol.com On 6/14/99 10:18 AM h-costume@indra.com wrote: >><> >>Like most academic libraries, the harvard system is available to >>non-students, under some circumstances. You can't just walk in off the >>street, but you can get in. > >It would be nice if they'd be a little less tight fisted on the ILL-end. >They have some books I need. Think of it from Harvard's point of view... they've spent the last 300 yrs accumulating a collection for their faculty and students -- it's not their fault if they have the only copy in the US of so many things! I work in a public library, and our ILL staff see it as self-preservation, when Harvard, U of Washington (Seattle) and the other really big guys charge $20 for an ILL -- they just want to make sure their stuff is occasionally on campus for their primary customers! On the other hand, it CAN be very frustrating trying to break into the ivory ghetto! You should hear my husband roar about all the stuff in his field that you see faint hints of, but haven't been published in the last 100 years, the professor can hand down the work to his 2-3 grad students, and no-one else in the world may ever see it outside of that incestuous little tiny circle! Real medieval guild masters and their secrets can't begin to compare! Chimene gerekr@aol.com[49,437]CSuX:early men s tunics Subject: Re: H-COST: early men's tunics From: Gerekr@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 02:47:53 EDT -Poster: Gerekr@aol.com On 6/15/99 10:24 AM h-costume@indra.com wrote: >From: sleipnir@gateway.net (Joel Thompson) >Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com >Reply-to: h-costume@indra.com >To: h-costume@indra.com (costume) > >-Poster: "Joel Thompson" > >Hello everyone >My name is Alianora, and I've been lurking in the background for a while >now. I'd like to say thanks everybody for all of the great info presented >here daily. A lot of it has really changed my perceptions and appreciation >for all that bookwriters and publishers do. And, I really appreciate the >documentation and resource links to get the things that I need to make my >garb both correct and "finished". >I have a question that I hope that you can help me with. My medieval >group does a much earlier time period, and we have several Viking >personas. With the weather getting *hotter* every day, the question has >come up about sleeveless tunics for the men. I have many good books on >Vikings, and haven't been able to find any documentation to allow this. >Does anyone know if this is a documented style? I can't find where it was >done at all past the Romans and the Celts. >I welcome your thoughts, please. > >Alianora There may be a sleeveless vest, according to one of the Hedeby reconstructions; but the Hedeby reconstructions are sometimes ... interesting (extrapolating a whole garment from a 3x6 inch fragment is one of their specialties) Otherwise we don't know of any... I think your folk would find a light-weight linen (or cotton) regular tunic more comfortable or as comfortable, as a lot of bare skin sticking to itself in the heat. The fabric shades the skin from the direct sun; natural fibers will help wick persperation away from the skin (cooling), etc. Gerek usually wears one of his 100% cotton (egyptian, indigo-dyed) tunics (#3, Cut my Cote) when it's hot (Western Oregon, can be 85-100 and 90%+ humidity, not often, but it happens). For real heat, he'd like to have linen, or very light wool, like challis? Good luck, Chimene & Gerek connie carroll [12,438]CSuX:embossing on fabric Subject: H-COST: embossing on fabric From: "Connie Carroll" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 05:46:47 +0000 -Poster: "Connie Carroll" Does anyone know if embossing on fabric, mainly velvet is period? I'm thinking of using rubber stamping for this purpose but the thought of whether they might have used wood blocks came to me. Any thoughts? Kassandra NickKraken JUST CALL ME MISTRESS BUNNY holliday, rachel {disc~welwyn} [21,439]CSuX:long linen fibers Subject: RE: H-COST: Re: long linen fibers From: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:50:40 +0200 -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Thank you I stand corrected. Incidentally does anyone know of a good source in the UK for both linen and hemp threads. Rachel > -----Original Message----- > From: Joan M Jurancich [SMTP:joanj@quiknet.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 2:24 AM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: RE: H-COST: Re: long linen fibers > > The generic word you are searching for is "bast"; bast fibers are those > from > the stems (including inner barks). Flax is one example, but hemp and > nettle > are also bast fibers. > melanie wilson [9,440]CSuX:drum carder Subject: H-COST: Drum Carder From: Melanie Wilson Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 06:57:56 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson Found this on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=116799912 they won't ship outside the US so no use to me but it might be to somebody ! Mel sarah toney [45,441]CSuX:mud cloth Subject: H-COST: mud cloth From: Sarah Toney Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 06:00:08 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney Hello all! I picked up the July copy of "Threads" last night... As I was flipping through, I found an article on Mud cloth! Since we had just been talking about it, I thought I'd mention it... For those of you who don't get threads (or can't), following is a list of the suppliers of mud cloth... the article says that since you can't get samples on an individual pattern (since they're done by hand) all of these people will take returns if you get something you don't like. 1~ G Street Fabrics: 12240 Wilkins Ave. Rockvile, MD 20852 2~ Homeland Fabric and Fashion: 122 W. 27th St. 8th floor New York, NY 10001 800-237-4226 3~ Manding Imports: P.O. Box 7643 Atlanta, GA 30357 770-760-8718 4~ St. Theresa Textile Trove: 1329 Main street Cincinnati, OH 45210 800-236-2450 5~ International Fabric Collection: 3445 W. Lake Rd. Erie, PA 16505 800-462-3891 www.intfab.com All of these will get you mail order... of course, if you live near them, I'm pretty sure you can stop by... Sarah Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com gia gavino-gattshall [31,442]CSuX:embossing on fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: embossing on fabric From: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 06:21:56 -0700 -Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" Good morning! If you could narrow down *which* period and what garment(s) (ie: elizabethan doublet, or garment of earlier or later period) and what country, I may be able to assist...a little! Gia/Giacinta -----Original Message----- From: Connie Carroll To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 2:55 AM Subject: H-COST: embossing on fabric > >-Poster: "Connie Carroll" > >Does anyone know if embossing on fabric, mainly velvet is period? I'm >thinking of using rubber stamping for this purpose but the thought of >whether they might have used wood blocks came to me. > >Any thoughts? > >Kassandra NickKraken >JUST CALL ME MISTRESS BUNNY > connie carroll [47,443]CSuX:embossing on fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: embossing on fabric From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:34:33 +0100 -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" ----- Original Message ----- > Does anyone know if embossing on fabric, mainly velvet is period? I'm > thinking of using rubber stamping for this purpose but the thought of > whether they might have used wood blocks came to me. > Some thoughts ; Wood that is easy to carve is also by its nature, except for the really exotic woods that we have discivered from the New World, that is, easy to burn . I would image that the heat of the iron would cause the wood to burn or at least quickly become brittle and unusable, as well as scorching/marking . If this process was done of old I think we may have seen some metal covered blocks; whereas I know of some examples of thin metal being used for patterns esp footwear, I cannot recall any such blocks; although I stand to be corrected. Remember that the block system works well with velvet containing rayon.because of the later shrinks laterally and curls when heat is applied. and this quickly with moist heat that does not build up enough to effect the organic or natural elements in the carrier material. Period velvet with the strands already weakened by the teasing process would respond differently; most probably just shriveled in the direction of its original twist., if it didnt char. I would not like to attempt this process with a non steam iron, particularly a period one that had been heated on an open fire.especially on an expensive fabric; I dont think fabric workers of any period would want to try this. The embossing that is definitely period is on leather; There are various processes depending on the type of leather. Metal stamping; Wet embossing Tooling and carving branding reverse printing ( The leather is laid over a reversed decorated mould like a printers platen and the back is pummeled with a leather soc full of sand) mainly a Roman process not much used in med times except by some armourers; Those are my thoughts , but my suggestions is to try anything and hope that it doesnt waste too much; Dave andrea gideon [16,444]CSuX:women s elizabethan doublets Subject: Re: H-COST: women's elizabethan doublets From: "Andrea Gideon" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:28:48 -0400 -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > For an Elizabethan solution I would look to Janet Arnold again. In her book > there are jackets with curved CFs. Starting at the neck they curve out to > accommodate the bust & then curve back in at the waist. This works because > the corset should be compressing & pushing the breast down [just like you > mentioned]....as opposed to an 18th century corset which lifts & pushes the The problem with the Janet Arnold examples are that all the garments are made to fit small busted women. The pattern I'm using is from her book. Andrea andrea gideon [12,445]CSuX:elizabthen corset Subject: H-COST: elizabthen corset From: "Andrea Gideon" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:35:53 -0400 -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" Here's another Elizabethan question. While trying to fit my pattern I noticed that my corset was causing tremendous pain to my lower back. This was the first time I've worn it since having my baby and never had pain before I was pregnant. Do this mean that it no longer fits properly? I loosened it up and that really had no effect. Andrea sarah toney [34,446]CSuX:elizabthen corset Subject: Re: H-COST: elizabthen corset From: Sarah Toney Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 07:37:07 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney I have found that often if I am having trouble with my corset, it is because the boning has slipped... check to make sure that the boning hasn't come out of it's casing and that the stitches holding it in haven't come undone. Sarah --- Andrea Gideon wrote: > > -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > > Here's another Elizabethan question. While trying > to fit my pattern I > noticed that my corset was causing tremendous pain > to my lower back. This > was the first time I've worn it since having my baby > and never had pain > before I was pregnant. Do this mean that it no > longer fits properly? I > loosened it up and that really had no effect. > > Andrea > > > majordomo@indra.com > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com albertcat@aol.com[16,447]CSuX:women s elizabethan doublets Subject: Re: H-COST: women's elizabethan doublets From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:55:23 EDT -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 6/16/99 10:26:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, andrea.gideon@erols.com writes: << The problem with the Janet Arnold examples are that all the garments are made to fit small busted women. The pattern I'm using is from her book. Andrea >> Hmmmmm...then try the horizontal dart. It can be incorporated into a button hole or hidden by trim. I know I said it seems more 18th century but I'll bet SOMEONE in the Renn. used this method. stitchwitch [31,448]CSuX:long linen fibers Subject: Re: RE: H-COST: Re: long linen fibers From: "StitchWitch" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:00:56 PDT -Poster: "StitchWitch" > > The generic word you are searching for is "bast"; bast fibers are those from > the stems (including inner barks). Flax is one example, but hemp and nettle > are also bast fibers. > > Joan Jurancich > Sacramento, CA > joanj@quiknet.com Just out of curiosity, can you get bast fibers from a century plant? Seems I have one in the yard of my new house (Yes! I bought a HOUSE!) and I'd like to know if I can do anything nifty with it. Kate ---- StitchWitch Man is certainly stark mad: he cannot make a flea, yet he makes gods by the dozens. - Montaigne, Essays - 1588 Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ margo anderson [26,449]CSuX:elizabthen corset Subject: Re: H-COST: elizabthen corset From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:39:19 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson At 10:35 AM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > >Here's another Elizabethan question. While trying to fit my pattern I >noticed that my corset was causing tremendous pain to my lower back. This >was the first time I've worn it since having my baby and never had pain >before I was pregnant. Do this mean that it no longer fits properly? Your weight has probably shifted. When I had my babies everything, breasts, hips, and stomach, dropped six inches ( which I actually appreciated since I've always been very high waisted) and none of my corsets or fitted bodices fit anymore. It might be, though, that you've just gotten used to standing in a different way (that belly out pregnant lady stance). Maybe being very conscious of posture would help. Congratulations on the baby! It's worth having to make a new corset, isn't it? Margo andrea gideon [45,450]CSuX:elizabthen corset Subject: Re: H-COST: elizabthen corset From: "Andrea Gideon" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:55:27 -0400 -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" No, the bones are just fine. It's not that kind of pain. It's a dull ache, almost like a pulled muscle kind of feeling. I had some truma during labor, that might be what's causing the pain. Andrea > > -Poster: Sarah Toney > > I have found that often if I am having trouble with my corset, it is > because the boning has slipped... check to make sure that the boning > hasn't come out of it's casing and that the stitches holding it in > haven't come undone. > > Sarah > > > --- Andrea Gideon wrote: > > > > -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > > > > Here's another Elizabethan question. While trying > > to fit my pattern I > > noticed that my corset was causing tremendous pain > > to my lower back. This > > was the first time I've worn it since having my baby > > and never had pain > > before I was pregnant. Do this mean that it no > > longer fits properly? I > > loosened it up and that really had no effect. > > > > Andrea > > > > > > majordomo@indra.com > > > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > franchesca havas [35,451]CSuX:elizabthen corset Subject: Re: H-COST: elizabthen corset From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:08:52 -0500 -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" It could be a pulled muscle. I had the muscles in front split from the size of my son. It has been 21 months and it still is not healed completely. But I did manage to go from 220 to 160 in that time and am finally wearing size 14 clothes. My goal is 135, a size 7 for my frame. Go to your both your ob and a regular doctor about it so that they can give you an assessment before you go to an orthopedic surgeon to help you through some physical therapy. Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas -----Original Message----- From: Andrea Gideon To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 10:51 AM Subject: Re: H-COST: elizabthen corset : :-Poster: "Andrea Gideon" : :No, the bones are just fine. It's not that kind of pain. It's a dull ache, :almost like a pulled muscle kind of feeling. I had some truma during labor, :that might be what's causing the pain. :Andrea : : marsha j. hamilton [32,452]CSuX:corset & back problems Subject: Re: H-COST: corset & back problems From: "Marsha J. Hamilton" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:29:18 -0400 -Poster: "Marsha J. Hamilton" Congrats on the baby :-) Condolences on the back :'( We all had trauma during labor. (I should have asked for the drugs-- natural childbirth isn't what it's cracked up to be, esp. after 16 hrs. of back labor.) I had lower back trouble for several years and back pain from constricting clothes. I can't wear any of the previous costumes. I had to cut new items with a shorter bodice to keep all pressure off the lower vertebrae. (Perfect for that Cavalier silhouette.) Also the weight of an extremely heavy skirt can be hard on the lower back. You may need to alter your costumes for a few years until you build back the strength in the muscles. Truthfully, sometimes you never fully recover. Childbirth is very traumatic to the body. I never really understood the situation of pre-20th century women before the baby. The weight of the clothes, the difficulty of working, the permanent toll on your body, the sheer number of clothing changes and washings a baby requires. Makes ya kinda wonder how women did it in a WHOLE new way! --------------------------------------- At 11:55 AM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote: > >No, the bones are just fine. It's not that kind of pain. It's a dull ache, >almost like a pulled muscle kind of feeling. I had some truma during labor, >that might be what's causing the pain. >Andrea robesof@aol.com[26,453]CSuX:embossing on fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: embossing on fabric From: RobesOf@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:35:00 EDT -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com In a message dated 6/16/99 6:21:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Connie.Bunny@worldnet.att.net writes: << Does anyone know if embossing on fabric, mainly velvet is period? I'm thinking of using rubber stamping for this purpose but the thought of whether they might have used wood blocks came to me. Any thoughts? Kassandra NickKraken JUST CALL ME MISTRESS BUNNY >> In the book "Costume: An Illustrated Survey from Ancient Times to the 20th Century" by Margot Lister, it mentions that certain garments made of satin were "powdered" with silver of gold patterns, usually stars. It does not mention how they powdered the satin, but my guess would be some sort of "stamping". It does not mention powdering done to velvet. The powdering took place in the 14th and 15th centuries. Hope that helps. Erica Pence Robes of Antiquity Online store coming soon. andrea gideon [23,454]CSuX:corset & back problems Subject: Re: H-COST: corset & back problems From: "Andrea Gideon" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:59:49 -0400 -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > > -Poster: "Marsha J. Hamilton" > > Congrats on the baby :-) Condolences on the back :'( > > We all had trauma during labor. (I should have asked for the drugs-- > natural childbirth isn't what it's cracked up to be, esp. after 16 hrs. > of back labor.) > > I had lower back trouble for several years and back pain from > constricting clothes. That's probably what happened to me. I had back labor for 3 days before I gave in to the suggestion of Pitocin, and therefore the epidural. I've heard some women have back problems caused by the epidural. Andrea lynn downward [20,455]CSuX:a tudor rubbish dump discovered! Subject: Re: H-COST: A Tudor rubbish dump discovered! From: Lynn Downward Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:54:37 -0800 -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: "Steve & Michelle Plumb" > >London fish tank reveals > everyday life of Tudors > > BY DALYA ALBERGE, ARTS CORRESPONDENT > > > THE discovery of a huge Tudor rubbish dump is > giving historians their best insights yet into the lives > of the Londoners of the day. This is an exciting find. Where was this article published? LynnD leslie helms [18,456]CSuX:tudor trash heaps (frivolous) Subject: H-COST: Tudor trash heaps (frivolous) From: Leslie Helms Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:02:55 -0700 -Poster: Leslie Helms I'm so excited about the London find... although I suppose it will be years before the books come out. Agh! And I wonder how the site will be referred to. Perhaps we'll all be making "London Tank doublets" or "Fish Pit partlets." Do you suppose that, in a few hundred years, people will get wildly excited when they discover a land fill site with unusually good preservative conditions? I wonder how the Tudors would have felt, knowing that future generations would be ecstatic about finding their garbage. Like us, they probably had enough of it that they couldn't imagine it being of any value. It's too bad Janet isn't still here to enjoy this. Leslie scott hulett [30,457]CSuX:a tudor rubbish dump discovered! Subject: Re: H-COST: A Tudor rubbish dump discovered! From: Scott Hulett Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:05:43 -0700 -Poster: Scott Hulett I found more about this at:

www.museumoflondon.org.uk 


Cheers, jd


 
 

Lynn Downward wrote:

-Poster: Lynn Downward <ldownward@mail.cho.org>

>-Poster: "Steve & Michelle Plumb" <splumb@ic.net>
>
>London fish tank reveals
>    everyday life of Tudors
>
>     BY DALYA ALBERGE, ARTS CORRESPONDENT
>
>
>  THE discovery of a huge Tudor rubbish dump is
>  giving historians their best insights yet into the lives
>  of the Londoners of the day.

This is an exciting find.  Where was this article published?

LynnD henk t jong [35,458]CSuX:embossing on fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: embossing on fabric From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 20:21:31 +0200 -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi List, Erica wrote: > In the book "Costume: An Illustrated Survey from Ancient Times to the 20th > Century" by Margot Lister, it mentions that certain garments made of satin > were "powdered" with silver of gold patterns, usually stars. It does not > mention how they powdered the satin, but my guess would be some sort of > "stamping". It does not mention powdering done to velvet. The powdering > took place in the 14th and 15th centuries. Hope that helps. Powdered means having small decorative figures or objects all over a field or cloth. On the last this was done by embroidering small abstract or figurative thingies with coloured silk or metal thread. Or the objects were stamped or cut out metal stars, circles or other forms of bronze, brass, tin, silver or gold. These could also be mixed with embroidered elements and even with small pearls or glass beads. Stella Mary Newton Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince has examples of the stamped ornaments and the dies in which they were pressed or cast. These were only used on the ceremonial garments of the super rich and high nobility and mainly worn at court occasions. Henk abbott, ruth [13,459]CSuX:1930 s dresses Subject: H-COST: 1930's Dresses From: "Abbott, Ruth" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:59:05 -0500 -Poster: "Abbott, Ruth" The other day I saw a few minutes of a production on Bravo called "Street Scenes", set outside a 1930's tenement. At a glance, the dresses seemed like they would be quite acceptable for (casual) office wear, made with more modern fabrics. Could anyone point me to any Web resources so I could learn more about the everyday styles of the period? I really don't know a thing about '30's clothing, and my searching only turned up movie costuming and fancy gowns. Alix albertcat@aol.com[20,460]CSuX:1930 s dresses Subject: Re: H-COST: 1930's Dresses From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:23:19 EDT -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 6/16/99 3:03:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, r-abbott@oar-xch1.oar.uiuc.edu writes: << Could anyone point me to any Web resources so I could learn more about the everyday styles of the period? I really don't know a thing about '30's clothing, and my searching only turned up movie costuming and fancy gowns. >> I don't know about web sites but....ever watch "Little Rascals"? A great source of everyday clothing...when you can find an adult. Also non-fashion mags of the period like Time or "home maker" types are good. You'll have to run to the local library. Also there are many modern patterns that are all but 1930 skirts....slender & fitted to the hips with a flair [in the form of pleats or godeys sometimes] at the mid-calf hem. rio@austin.rr.com (strangegirl)[43,461]CSuX:elizabthen corset Subject: Re: H-COST: elizabthen corset From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:25:55 GMT -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) On Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:35:53 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > >Here's another Elizabethan question. While trying to fit my pattern I >noticed that my corset was causing tremendous pain to my lower back. This >was the first time I've worn it since having my baby and never had pain >before I was pregnant. YOu may have had some changes in muscle tone, fat placement etc because of the baby. You may also be experiencing some minor spinal compression because things have moved around. I would reccomend seeing a chiropractor or a conventional orthopaedist who handles back injuries, as you may simply need a course of exercises to help restore the former strength. Swimming helps some back issues, and you can do this with your wee ones. My chiropractor recommended bicycling, situps and some odd yoga-like crunches that I can't even begin to describe here. He also told me that I would really want to get into very good shape before going the route of becoming a mother, to prevent over-painful labor and more back problems. BTW, I haven't had the joy of having a baby, I just have the luck to have fat patterns that aggravate a sway back. Combined with a change in my activity (from an active job to a stationary job) this created a back problem that sounds very similar to yours. I wish you luck, you have my sympathies! Margery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~There is no spoon~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ {*to reply take "spambegone" from my reply-to address*} melanie wilson [12,462]CSuX:embossing Subject: H-COST: Embossing From: Melanie Wilson Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:36:08 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Does anyone know if embossing on fabric, mainly velvet is period? I'm thinking of using rubber stamping for this purpose but the thought of whether they might have used wood blocks came to me. Printing fabric I recall was used in middle classes in medieval times, if that helps ! Mel patricia ward [17,463]CSuX:egyptian clothing Subject: Re: H-COST:Egyptian clothing From: Patricia Ward Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:38:50 -0400 -Poster: Patricia Ward Could someone please point me to any websites that would help us in designing Egyptian clothing for women for a history project? We are looking, of course, for Ancient Egypt. thanks, Patti Ward Ward Family Knitgoods Americans by Birth Southern by the Grace of God Wardfamily7@mindspring.com lynn meyer [36,464]CSuX:long linen fibers Subject: RE: H-COST: long linen fibers From: Lynn Meyer Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:52:12 -0700 -Poster: Lynn Meyer >From: Joan M Jurancich > >>-Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" >> >>> Another revelation--"linen" is the generic name for fibers >>> made from (word I can't remember that means long woody/grassy >>> type plants). A lot of cloth was made from hemp linen. Hmm, the way I've seen it in several places was a little different -- that early researchers couldn't tell the difference between the various bast fibers (or didn't bother to analyze them enough to tell), and so things got labelled "linen" (meaning flax) that were really some other bast fiber. According to Agnes Geijer (a textile historian), you need a microscope to tell the difference between them. >The generic word you are searching for is "bast"; bast fibers are those from >the stems (including inner barks). Flax is one example, but hemp and nettle >are also bast fibers. I agree, and I found out last night that ramie is a member of the nettle family (the Geijer book again). Lynn ---- Lynn Meyer, Mountain View, Bay Area, CA (Halima de la Lucha, Crosston, Mists, West) LMeyer@netbox.com dietmar [40,465]CSuX:long linen fibers Subject: H-COST: Re: long linen fibers From: Dietmar Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:54:47 +0000 -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, Joan wrote: > The generic word you are searching for is "bast"; bast fibers are > those from the stems (including inner barks). Flax is one example, > but hemp and nettle are also bast fibers. And Kate asked: >> Just out of curiosity, can you get bast fibers from a century >> plant? Seems I have one in the yard of my new house (Yes! I >> bought a HOUSE!) and I'd like to know if I can do anything >> nifty with it. I'm by no means an expert on this subject, but I'll add what little I know. Linen comes from flax. Ramie comes from nettle. Canvas (from the name cannabis) came from hemp originally, but now it's cotton or a combination with any bast fibers. To add to the confusion, there are other fibers labeled as hemp. Manila hemp, originally used for paper and envelopes (sound familiar?), comes from the bast fibers of abaca, a banana plant (Musa textilis). Sisal hemp, used for rope and twine, comes from the bast fibers of a West Indian agave (Agave sisalana). The century plant is a Mexican agave (Agave americana), so I imagine that you could try using its bast fibers for making rough cordage, macrame or other such things. Good luck with the new house, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[13,466]CSuX:century plant spinning Subject: H-COST: century plant spinning From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:52:33 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) If you're interested in working with bast fibers, especially some of the more unusual ones, I'd suggest looing at Rita Buchanan's book A Weaver's Garden (published by Interweave Press, still in print.) She's done a lot of work with various plant fibers. Deborah marsha j. hamilton [18,467]CSuX:back problems (ot) Subject: Re: H-COST: back problems (OT) From: "Marsha J. Hamilton" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:13:15 -0400 -Poster: "Marsha J. Hamilton" ------- >I've heard some women have back problems caused by the epidural. >Andrea -------- You didn't mention an epidural before. I think it can have the same drawbacks as spinal taps, if the needle is in the spine & hits something or causes swelling or gets fluid in the wrong place, it can cause persisting back pain. Sounds like a trip to the doctor may be in order? Take care of yourself. Being a mom is tough--it's easy to re-strain muscles with all the lifting and carrying, you're probably not sleeping much (which intensifies pain and slows healing), and your body takes a massive loss in calcium, vitamins, etc. in pregnancy and nursing. How DID women do it back then ? !!!! margo anderson [28,468]CSuX:corsets, childbirth, and back problems Subject: H-COST: Corsets, childbirth, and back problems From: Margo Anderson Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:03:08 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson I had tornmuscles and nerve damage from a back injury sustained when I was being rushed back into surgery due to a bleed out after a C-Section. As I recall, they tossed me onto the operating table so fast I bounced. Well, I was minutes away from death, so I forgive them. The torn muscles eventually repaired themselves, but the nerve damage resulted in a fairly constant itching sensation at one small spot on my back, that finally tapered off after about two years...until recently, when I made myself a corset. Now, the itching is back. I've been wearing the corset maybe once a week or so, and it's not uncomfortable when I wear it, but I'm pretty sure it's the culprit, that being the only thing that's changed. Has anyone else experienced this? Do you have a solution? I have a checkup sceduled, but I know my doctor's response to "It itches now that I'm wearing corsets again" is going to be "then don't wear corsets." Silly man. Oh yes, all my medical budget is going to the dentist right now, so chiropractors, while lovely, aren't really an option either. Margo Anderson the purple elephant [23,469]CSuX:corsets, childbirth, and back problems Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets, childbirth, and back problems From: The Purple Elephant Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:57:40 +0930 (CST) -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Wed, 16 Jun 1999, Margo Anderson wrote: > > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > I had tornmuscles and nerve damage from a back injury sustained when I was > being rushed back into surgery due to a bleed out after a C-Section. As I > recall, they tossed me onto the operating table so fast I bounced. Well, I > was minutes away from death, so I forgive them. > All these stories are so encouraging me to get pregnant.... *grin* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ robesof@aol.com[14,470]CSuX:corsets, childbirth, and back problems Subject: Re: H-COST: Corsets, childbirth, and back problems From: RobesOf@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:25:38 EDT -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com I have just read about 10 people's back problems due to pregnancies. I don't mean to be rude or insensitive, but this mail list is for discussing historical costuming. I have no suggestions for the young lady with the corset problem causing back pain, but lets limit our discussion to how she can fix her corset, not her back. Once again, sorry for coming off as insensitive, but all of us are here for the wonderful wealth of information on costuming that we provide for each other. Thanks, Erica Pence danielle nunn [30,471]CSuX:embossing on fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: embossing on fabric From: Danielle Nunn Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 20:46:32 -0400 -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, ><< Does anyone know if embossing on fabric, mainly velvet is period? I'm > thinking of using rubber stamping for this purpose but the thought of > whether they might have used wood blocks came to me. I just moved (I have a sewing room now!) so none of my books are handy but, have you tried Ceninni (sp?). Unfortunately, I can't remember the title of the book either. Ceninni was a 14th or 15th century Italian artisan who wrote a book on how to ... various arts. One of the things he talks about is "gilding velvet". The book is very interesting. ;) It has a yellow cover, is fairly small, and is put out by Dover. Does this make any sense? >In the book "Costume: An Illustrated Survey from Ancient Times to the >20th Century" by Margot Lister... I believe I have that book and all I can say is: Beware of her books, she appears to have quite the imagination. :) Cheers, Danielle danielle nunn [21,472]CSuX:elizabthen corset Subject: Re: H-COST: elizabthen corset From: Danielle Nunn Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 20:31:47 -0400 -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, >Here's another Elizabethan question. While trying to fit my pattern I >noticed that my corset was causing tremendous pain to my lower back. This >was the first time I've worn it since having my baby and never had pain >before I was pregnant. Do this mean that it no longer fits properly? I >loosened it up and that really had no effect. Congrats! Unfortunately, I would have to say that you are correct. It probably no longer fits properly. I had the same problem with a recent weight gain/redistribution. But, have fun with a swiz new corset. Cheers, Danielle kathryn l. herb [64,473]CSuX:body hair Subject: Re: H-COST: Body Hair From: Kathryn L. Herb Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 23:13:02 -0500 -Poster: "Gail E. Middleton" I Understand the merkin, or Pubic wig, is still in use in theater for actors who want to appear nude on stage while actually wearing a skin-colored body stocking. Gail in Sun Prairie ----- Original Message ----- > > -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" > > >-Poster: Margo Anderson > > > >Getting back to historical aspects, I've heard that the whole "merkin" > >story > >is a hoax. Anyone have input on that? > > > >Margo > > > Margo, > > Some friends and I had a discussion about this a while back. I dug out > the one remaining post I have on it which includes the following from the > Oxford English Dictionary: > > "merkin ('m3:rkin). Also 7 mirkin. 1 a The female pudendum [which a > more recent dictionary tells me comes from a root meaning "a thing to be > ashamed of"] obs. 1535 LYNDESAY Satyre 1920 Mawkine. 1656 FLECTHER > Martial 95 Why dost thou reach thy Merkin now half dust? Why dost > provoke the ashes of thy lust? 1671 SKINNER Etymol. Ling. Angl., Merkin, > Pubes mulieris. 1714 A. SMITH Lives Highwaymen II. 151 This put a > strange Whim in his Head; which was, to get the hairy circle of her > Merkin... This he dry'd well, and comb'd out, and then return'd to the > Cardinall, telling him, he had brought St. Peter's Beard." > > Sounds rather like it could mean both the real and the artificial thing. > I've posted her for the rest of the story. Reportedly a French company > still makes them. (The Hair Club for Women?) The researcher put forth a > statement that they were in use from at least Elizabethan times through > the 1700's, but indicates that it was almost certainly the female nobles > or "the bed-hopping courtly set from 1400? - 1790. > > Unfortunately, any record I had of the documentation got separated from > what I've posted here. It may take a little while to get the full > information, but I'll forward it on to you when I get it. > > Apparently they were pasted on the shaved skin. > > Apologies for the vagueness of this reply. Will attempt to clarify ASAP. > > Kay > > kayherb@juno.com > > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] mlaventure@aol.com[21,474]CSuX:enhancements move Subject: H-COST: Enhancements move From: MLaventure@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:03:21 EDT -Poster: MLaventure@aol.com Hi List, I went off-line while we were in the process of moving. It's nice to be back and see familiar names. Here is a new address for Enhancements Costume Supply and myself: Enhancements Costume Supply P.O. Box 2584 Laguna Hills, CA 92654-2584 FAX (949) 716-0644 Answ. Machine (949) 716-0645 Catalog available. Mary LaVenture laurel wilson [22,475]CSuX:long linen fibers Subject: Re: H-COST: long linen fibers From: Laurel Wilson Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:57:25 -0400 -Poster: Laurel Wilson I too have read Geijer's explanation of the inability to distinguish flax from hemp fibers except microscopically. There is an additional problem in dealing with medieval textiles, which is that, in medieval England at least, the distinction between flaxen cloth and hempen cloth is not exactly parallel to the distinction between linen and canvas. That is, "linen" ('linum' or 'tela linea' in Latin) might easily be made from hemp. 'Canabum' was made from hemp, but was most often what we would today call 'linen' fabric; perhaps of a coarser grade, but not necessarily. Canvas, which was sold in England, was not made in England until the sixteenth century, and in medieval times, though it might be referred to as 'canabo', it might also be called by the name of the area in France from which it came (mostly towns in Normandy and Brittany). In case this is not sufficiently confusing, there is also a grade of cloth called 'harden,' made from the remains left over after the good stuff was hackled and beaten (see the OED on this one). I have references on this stuff if anyone is interested. Lauri kat@grendal.rain.com[25,476]CSuX:embossing on fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: embossing on fabric From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:50:15 +0000 -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > In the book "Costume: An Illustrated Survey from Ancient Times to the 20th > Century" by Margot Lister, it mentions that certain garments made of satin > were "powdered" with silver of gold patterns, usually stars. It does not > mention how they powdered the satin, but my guess would be some sort of > "stamping". It does not mention powdering done to velvet. The powdering > took place in the 14th and 15th centuries. Hope that helps. Powdering in this case just means that it had a design on it (which could also be considered "diapered" or "sprinkled.") It could be woven in or embroidered. For good information on printed fabrics try Robinson's book on the history of printed textiles. (Sorry, don't have easy access to the ISBN right now. My books are in transit of reorganization.) Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! kat@grendal.rain.com[24,477]CSuX:tudor trash heaps (frivolous) Subject: Re: H-COST: Tudor trash heaps (frivolous) From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:50:15 +0000 -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > I'm so excited about the London find... although I suppose it will be years > before the books come out. Agh! And I wonder how the site will be > referred to. Perhaps we'll all be making "London Tank doublets" or "Fish > Pit partlets." What gets me is that this discovery happened while I was in London (and from the dates, I was actually at MOL one of those days!) Also, they are putting on an exhibit of the findings this month which goes through early July. For more information check their website: www.museum-london.org.uk. They even have a photograph of the banana they found! Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! melanie wilson [23,478]CSuX:bookspot- new discussion Subject: H-COST: BookSpot- New discussion From: Melanie Wilson Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 02:49:31 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson The Next book due to be discussed on the list is Plants & Archaeology by Geoffrey Dimbleby. Is there anyone out there who would like to do so ? If not I'm going to move onto a new book THE STATIONS OF THE SUN by Ronald Hutton which is a comprehensive history of customs and beliefs which constitute the ritual year in Britain. The rituals covered start from the earliest written records to present day , many common assumptions are challanged and this will give a good insight into how earlier Brits ran their lives within the ritual happenings. For anyone who wants to join but dosen't know how http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/BookSpot Please pass this message onto others who might be interested Mel melanie wilson [14,479]CSuX:ichy nerve damage Subject: H-COST: Ichy nerve damage From: Melanie Wilson Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 02:59:42 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Has anyone else experienced this? Do you have a solution? I have a checkup sceduled, but I know my doctor's response to "It itches now that I'm wearing corsets again" is going to be "then don't wear corsets." Silly man. Have you looked at the herbal oily substances that can help repait such problems ? Mel melanie wilson [13,480]CSuX:bast fibres -nettle Subject: H-COST: Bast fibres -nettle From: Melanie Wilson Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 02:59:44 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson >I agree, and I found out last night that ramie is a member of the nettle family (the Geijer book again). And many fibres are now thought to be nettle rather than flax ! Has anyone tried it ? I keep looking at the abundance of nettles in my field & thinking maybe I should :) Mel holliday, rachel {disc~welwyn} [10,481]CSuX:back problems (ot) Subject: RE: H-COST: back problems (OT) From: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:31:49 +0200 -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" This is completely off topic. You could try taking arnica its a homeopathic treatment sometimes given after surgery. It speeds up healing quite dramatically and is really good for the trauma associated with injury. If you're interested find yourself a good herbalist and make an appointment. Rachel pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[28,482]CSuX:h costume: linen Subject: H-COST: H Costume: linen From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 08:46:09 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> Things were labelled and sold as linen long before anyone was analyzing them for museums -- "linen", as late as the 18c, simply meant bast fiber. In general, in western Europe, that meant it was either flax or hemp (ramie wasn't readible available), but people didn't care, and what the actual fiber was wasn't an issue. <> If you have an individual fiber, you only need a magnifying glass (or very sharp eyes.) Wet one fiber and hold one end firmly against a surface. As the fiber dries, it will twist. If it twists in a clockwise direction, the fiber is flax. If it twists in counter-clockwise direction, it is hemp. The opposite of this test is to wet a dry fiber and watch it twist as it wets; the twist will be the opposite to drying. The basis for this test is the direction that external fibrillae lie along the axis of the fiber. Deborah snspies@aol.com[10,483]CSuX:bast fibres -nettle Subject: Re: H-COST: Bast fibres -nettle From: SNSpies@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:12:42 EDT -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com << Has anyone tried it ? I keep looking at the abundance of nettles in my field & thinking maybe I should :) >> Yes, and all I got was a sodden mess that smelled, well, "interesting"! Nancy john page [13,484]CSuX:early men s tunics Subject: Re: H-COST: early men's tunics From: "John Page" Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:44:54 -0400 -Poster: "John Page" I don't have sources for you to check but I remember seeing Pompeiian wall paintings that seemed to show people in short-sleeved tunics. JPWild in Textile Manufacture in the Northern Roman Provinces shows a tomb carving of a fuller wearing a sleeveless tunic, maybe with shoulder fastenings -- one of which is undone. Good luck, Kristin Page ---------- joel thompson [24,485]CSuX:early men s tunics Subject: H-COST: early men's tunics From: Joel Thompson Date: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 1:02 PM -Poster: "Joel Thompson" Hello everyone My name is Alianora, and I've been lurking in the background for a while now. I'd like to say thanks everybody for all of the great info presented here daily. A lot of it has really changed my perceptions and appreciation for all that bookwriters and publishers do. And, I really appreciate the documentation and resource links to get the things that I need to make my garb both correct and "finished". I have a question that I hope that you can help me with. My medieval group does a much earlier time period, and we have several Viking personas. With the weather getting *hotter* every day, the question has come up about sleeveless tunics for the men. I have many good books on Vikings, and haven't been able to find any documentation to allow this. Does anyone know if this is a documented style? I can't find where it was done at all past the Romans and the Celts. I welcome your thoughts, please. Alianora ---------- rio@austin.rr.com (strangegirl)[47,486]CSuX:my review of waisted efforts Subject: H-COST: My review of Waisted Efforts From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:54:23 GMT -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) I bought a copy of this while I was visiting my mother in California. I was excited by the wealth of pictures, and didn't notice some problems right away. Mostly, these are obvious editing errors. It looks as if the book was rushed to press. I wanted to take the time to evaluate the book thouroughly before issuing a review, so I took the time to read it and re-read it. Here are my thoughts on this book. Overall, a good book for those who are mostly experienced in modern dressmaking. Gives illustrated, well explained instructions for using a modern fitting block as a basis for fitting period corsets to modern bodies. There are some problems that could very well have something to do with an apparent lack of proofreading, which is fairly typical for small press books in their first edition. It does concentrate mostly on the 19th and early 20th century corsetry, with some decent coverage of earlier corsets, and wonderful (but short!) sections on New-Look corsetry and mens corsetry. Lots of pictures of original peices, original adverts, some redrawings and patterns worked out from original sources and redrawn from Waugh. Some of the original pieces are shown on dress stands that they *clearly* don't fit, so the views of uneven lacing gaps are to be taken with a grain of salt. An important errata note: p140 gives a pattern from Waugh that is described as being an 1860's corset. It isn't. It *is* a turn of the century 's curve' style corset, the date given in Waugh for the piece the pattern was drawn from is 1902. The making up text describes this as an 1890's corset, whic is also just barely true. Corsets of this style were beginning to be made in the very late 1890's. Other than this, and some basic wordprocessing-program-spell-and-grammar-checker issues (some of which are rather silly, but obviously not the fault of the author), I would say it's a worthwhile addition to the library of anyone who is seriously interested in making corsets. Margery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~There is no spoon~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ {*to reply take "spambegone" from my reply-to address*} hope h. dunlap [53,487]CSuX:1930 s dresses Subject: Re: H-COST: 1930's Dresses From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:09:01 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Try the following sources for 1930's dress patterns and pictures: http://www.tiac.net/users/misch/simplicity2.html and go down to the bottom of the page as I member for the index to help you move around the site. http://home.earthlink.net/~chazengan/vintage/thirties.html There may be some actual patterns printable off the web at the Pompadour section of http://www.costumegallery.com Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of AlbertCat@aol.com -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 6/16/99 3:03:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, r-abbott@oar-xch1.oar.uiuc.edu writes: << Could anyone point me to any Web resources so I could learn more about the everyday styles of the period? I really don't know a thing about '30's clothing, and my searching only turned up movie costuming and fancy gowns. >> I don't know about web sites but....ever watch "Little Rascals"? A great source of everyday clothing...when you can find an adult. Also non-fashion mags of the period like Time or "home maker" types are good. You'll have to run to the local library. Also there are many modern patterns that are all but 1930 skirts....slender & fitted to the hips with a flair [in the form of pleats or godeys sometimes] at the mid-calf hem. _____ majordomo@indra.com hope h. dunlap [43,488]CSuX:egyptian clothing Subject: Re: H-COST:Egyptian clothing From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:26:32 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" I was just in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York last week looking at actual tomb paintings depicting Egyptian clothing and also actual textiles. Their website might have some pix. Try http:www.metacrawler.com and type in "Ancient Egyptian clothing" and variants thereof until you find what you need. It is a collection of several search engines, so it is the fastest way I know to find anything you need. Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Patricia Ward -Poster: Patricia Ward Could someone please point me to any websites that would help us in designing Egyptian clothing for women for a history project? We are looking, of course, for Ancient Egypt. thanks, Patti Ward Ward Family Knitgoods Americans by Birth Southern by the Grace of God Wardfamily7@mindspring.com _____ majordomo@indra.com margo anderson [22,489]CSuX:back problems, taking them elsewhere Subject: RE: H-COST: back problems, taking them elsewhere From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:04:00 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson A > >This is completely off topic. I don't agree, in that we are discussing back problems as related to corsets, it seems to be entirely on topic. However, we've had two objections, so I propose we move the discussion over to H-Fem. For those of you who aren't familiar, H-fem was created as a spin-off of H-Cost, for exactly this sort of situation, when costume issues turn into women's issues. (Those of you with different plumbing are welcome, too, or you could start H-masc, I suppose.) For subscription info, go to http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/H-fem Margo Anderson "One Tough Costumer" genevieve de courtanvaux [25,490]CSuX:bast fibres -nettle Subject: Re: H-COST: Bast fibres -nettle From: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:05:03 -0500 -Poster: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" >From what I have read flax fibers don't smell all that great either.....so maybe you were on the right path. Carol Ross -----Original Message----- From: SNSpies@aol.com To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thursday, June 17, 1999 8:19 AM Subject: Re: H-COST: Bast fibres -nettle > >-Poster: SNSpies@aol.com > ><< Has anyone tried it ? I keep looking at the abundance of nettles in my > field & thinking maybe I should :) >> > >Yes, and all I got was a sodden mess that smelled, well, "interesting"! > >Nancy > snspies@aol.com[11,491]CSuX:bast fibres -nettle Subject: Re: H-COST: Bast fibres -nettle From: SNSpies@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 12:35:37 EDT -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com << From what I have read flax fibers don't smell all that great either.....so maybe you were on the right path. >> Well, the smell may have been correct, but the sodden mushy mass definitely wasn't! I somehow managed to rett everything to a pulp. Nancy linda yordy [20,492]CSuX:hald book Subject: H-COST: Hald book From: "Linda Yordy" Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:23:09 -0700 -Poster: "Linda Yordy" I recently heard a rumor that Margrethe Hald's book, Ancient Danish Textiles from Bogs and Burials, is back in print. I did a search on Amazon.com and it said it was out of print. Anyone have any leads? Linda Yordy Center for Management Development 1910 University Drive Boise, ID 83725-1660 ******************************************************** Yordy's Law #3: When wearing white, apply your lunch directly to your shirt -- it will end up there anyway. hope h. dunlap [49,493]CSuX:1930 s dresses Subject: H-COST: RE: 1930's Dresses From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:32:14 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Sorry, Doo-fus behind the browser here. http://home.earthlink.net/~chazengan/vintage/Thirties.html "Misch" moved, stock fluctuates, thin right now: http://www.oldpatterns.com/master.html Lots at Marquise de Pompadour's site for patterns of the Twenties and Thirties: http://www.costumegallery.com/pompadour/schnitte/pat1920.htm l A new one: http://www.lilyabello.com/patternshop/ One 1935 blouse pattern here amid mostly 40's and later patterns. http://www.shopdoor.com/rustyzipper/search/shop99.cgi?ZZ=194 0&ZZ=All+Patterns&ZZ=21&ZZ= Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: mffski [mailto:mffski@ptd.net] Sent: Thursday, June 17, 1999 12:07 PM To: hhdunlap@email.msn.com Subject: 1930's Dresses Dear Hope, The following two URL's don't work! http://www.tiac.net/users/misch/simplicity2.html and go down to the bottom of the page as I member for the index to help you move around the site. http://home.earthlink.net/~chazengan/vintage/thirties.html Help? Maryanne mffski@ptd.net henk t jong [44,494]CSuX:embossing on fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: embossing on fabric From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:38:37 +0200 -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hallo List. Danielle wrote: > I just moved (I have a sewing room now!) so none of my books are handy but, > have you tried Ceninni (sp?). Unfortunately, I can't remember the title of > the book either. Ceninni was a 14th or 15th century Italian artisan who > wrote a book on how to ... various arts. One of the things he talks about > is "gilding velvet". The book is very interesting. ;) It has a yellow > cover, is fairly small, and is put out by Dover. > The book is called 'The Craftman's Handbook, Il Libro dell' Arte, Cennino d'Andrea Cennini" translated by Daniel V. Thompson Jr. It's a Dover book. My copy is from 1960 and I had it for at least 32 years. The gilding velvet part is funny. First he gives a recipe (with egg white and stuff) but then he says that it's maybe easier to paint or emboss on pieces of silk and have the embroiderers sew this on the velvet! In other words: don't bother to emboss on velvet. > > >In the book "Costume: An Illustrated Survey from Ancient Times to the > >20th Century" by Margot Lister... > > I believe I have that book and all I can say is: Beware of her books, she > appears to have quite the imagination. :) > If it's in the same vein as her Costumes of everyday life 900-1910, don't believe a word she says and don't believe the pictures either. Not worth buying imo. Henk griffinhold@usa.net[21,495]CSuX:(h-costume-digest v4 #382) Subject: H-COST: Re: [h-costume-digest V4 #382] From: griffinhold@usa.net Date: 17 Jun 99 13:33:34 MDT -Poster: griffinhold@usa.net >I recently heard a rumor that Margrethe Hald's book, Ancient >Danish Textiles from Bogs and Burials, is back in print. I did a >search on Amazon.com and it said it was out of print. I just bought a copy about a month ago at the National Museum in Copenhagen. They seem to have a stock of them and trot out one copy at a time until someone buys it. A friend of mine was in Copenhagen last fall and bought what she thought was the last remaining copy. Unfortunately I'm at work and don't have an address, but the museum name is NATIONALMUSEET. Try seeing if you can reach them via the web. Cost of the book is about $50.00 US. BTW, it's a great book! If you can't reach them via the web, maybe Leif/Bjarne can help. Good luck! Lyn Gillespie Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 scott hulett [26,496]CSuX:back problems (ot) Subject: Re: H-COST: back problems (OT) From: Scott Hulett Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 13:13:28 -0700 -Poster: Scott Hulett I would humbly add you may want to seek out a yoga class. Restorative Iyanger is excellent for back pain. I herniated a disc in my lumbar region which pressed against my sciatic nerve, deadening part of my right leg. That was 8 mos ago. Now I teach yoga at the Y. There as several excellent books as well, but, there is no substitute for a good, trained caring teacher. We have many people in class over 60 with back problems as well who are doing wonderfully. It really helps regain your range of motion, especially if you sit at the computer or sewing machine alot, (like me). Very good luck to you, email is you want the names of books or teachers. cheers, jd "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" wrote: > -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" > > This is completely off topic. You could try taking arnica its a homeopathic > treatment sometimes given after surgery. It speeds up healing quite > dramatically and is really good for the trauma associated with injury. If > you're interested find yourself a good herbalist and make an appointment. > Rachel > robesof@aol.com[24,497]CSuX:embossing on fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: embossing on fabric From: RobesOf@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:39:50 EDT -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com In a message dated 6/17/99 2:41:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scapreel@tip.nl writes: << > >In the book "Costume: An Illustrated Survey from Ancient Times to the > >20th Century" by Margot Lister... > > I believe I have that book and all I can say is: Beware of her books, she > appears to have quite the imagination. :) > If it's in the same vein as her Costumes of everyday life 900-1910, don't believe a word she says and don't believe the pictures either. Not worth buying imo. >> What books do you suggest that would provide sketches and detailed info on a variety of time periods? I am trying to a build a good basic library for myself and never seem to be able to know which books are accurate. Your insight is most appreciated. Erica lynn meyer [23,498]CSuX:century plant spinning Subject: Re: H-COST: century plant spinning From: Lynn Meyer Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:50:07 -0700 -Poster: Lynn Meyer >From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) > >If you're interested in working with bast fibers, especially some of >the more unusual ones, I'd suggest looking at Rita Buchanan's book >A Weaver's Garden (published by Interweave Press, still in print.) >She's done a lot of work with various plant fibers. > >Deborah Do you happen to know if Buchanan's other book, "A Dyer's Garden", contains much that her "A Weaver's Garden" does not? Thanks, Lynn ---- Lynn Meyer, Mountain View, Bay Area, CA (Halima de la Lucha, Crosston, Mists, West) LMeyer@netbox.com lynn meyer [37,499]CSuX:long linen fibers Subject: Re: H-COST: long linen fibers From: Lynn Meyer Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:51:31 -0700 -Poster: Lynn Meyer >From: Laurel Wilson >Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:57:25 -0400 >Subject: Re: H-COST: long linen fibers > >I too have read Geijer's explanation of the inability to distinguish >flax from hemp fibers except microscopically. There is an additional >problem in dealing with medieval textiles, which is that, in medieval >England at least, the distinction between flaxen cloth and hempen cloth >is not exactly parallel to the distinction between linen and canvas. >That is, "linen" ('linum' or 'tela linea' in Latin) might easily be made >from hemp. 'Canabum' was made from hemp, but was most often what we >would today call 'linen' fabric; perhaps of a coarser grade, but not >necessarily. Canvas, which was sold in England, was not made in England >until the sixteenth century, and in medieval times, though it might be >referred to as 'canabo', it might also be called by the name of the area >in France from which it came (mostly towns in Normandy and Brittany). >In case this is not sufficiently confusing, there is also a grade of >cloth called 'harden,' made from the remains left over after the good >stuff was hackled and beaten (see the OED on this one). I have >references on this stuff if anyone is interested. > >Lauri > Yes, I'm interested in the references. Thanks! Lynn ---- Lynn Meyer, Mountain View, Bay Area, CA (Halima de la Lucha, Crosston, Mists, West) LMeyer@netbox.com lynn meyer [44,500]CSuX:linen Subject: Re: H-COST: linen From: Lynn Meyer Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:03:48 -0700 -Poster: Lynn Meyer >From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) > >Things were labelled and sold as linen long before anyone was analyzing >them for museums -- "linen", as late as the 18c, simply meant bast fiber. >In general, in western Europe, that meant it was either flax or hemp (ramie >wasn't readible available), but people didn't care, and what the actual >fiber was wasn't an issue. Do you happen to know when that practice (calling other bast fibers linen) began? ><to tell the difference between them.>> > >If you have an individual fiber, you only need a magnifying glass (or very >sharp eyes.) Wet one fiber and hold one end firmly against a surface. As >the fiber dries, it will twist. If it twists in a clockwise direction, the >fiber is flax. If it twists in counter-clockwise direction, it is hemp. >The opposite of this test is to wet a dry fiber and watch it twist as it >wets; the twist will be the opposite to drying. The basis for this test is >the direction that external fibrillae lie along the axis of the fiber. Maybe if the fabric is centuries old, the fibers no longer twist? Just guessing. Actually, I've read that flax is usually spun in a particular direction (I forget whether it's S or Z) because of that characteristic twist (e.g. so it doesn't untwist when you wash it and dry it!). I'd think that hemp would therefore usually be spun in the opposite direction. And that should be clear even in a centuries-old piece of fabric... >Deborah > Lynn ---- Lynn Meyer, Mountain View, Bay Area, CA (Halima de la Lucha, Crosston, Mists, West) LMeyer@netbox.com katrina worley [24,501]CSuX:h-costume-digest v4 #382 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #382 From: Katrina Worley Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:26:31 -0700 -Poster: Katrina Worley DON'T! The bast fiber in the nettle or milkweed will rot right along with the stems. The fibers are seperated out by hand from the stalk of the "field retted" plant (you let the plant weather in the field for the first couple of rains in the fall). You also can't put the fibers through the hackling and combing processes that you use for flax or hemp. Think about the fairy tale of the Swan Brothers... the little sister crushed the nettles with her feet and separated the fibers with her hands. This is part of why flax and hemp would have been cultivated when milkweed and nettles are growing wild and free for the taking. Even though growing them is more work, the fact that you can process them with tools makes them more efficient in the long run. Katrina Katrina in Loomis, CA kworley@ns.net *************** **K. Worley, 1997** kat@grendal.rain.com[20,502]CSuX:bast fibres -nettle Subject: Re: H-COST: Bast fibres -nettle From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:32:21 +0000 -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > Well, the smell may have been correct, but the sodden mushy mass definitely > wasn't! I somehow managed to rett everything to a pulp. If it is rett too long or if there was an infection, the fibres will disintegrate into a smelly mess. I suspect that's what happened. The last time I tried it, these cute little tiny red spiders got into it and chewed the nettles up. Yuck! Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! wanda pease [108,503]CSuX:publication of kalamazoo papers (was: janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article) Subject: Re: H-COST: Publication of Kalamazoo papers (was: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article) From: "Wanda Pease" Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:33:59 -0700 -Poster: "Wanda Pease" Robin, This may sound like a challenging question, and I don't mean to get in your, or anyone else's face. I'm ignorant of exactly what you do and what the norm is in academia, so I'm going to ask a question that may seem rude. If the research and knowledge you and your fellow conference goers (evidently over 15 years) present simply disappears after you are through with the presentation, what good is it? You of course have learned a great deal, but if it isn't passed on it means the next person interested in the same subject (if they don't know you, or the other presenters) must start from the beginning, re-inventing the wheel as it were. If the point of the Kalamazoo exercise is to add to the store of human knowledge, it sounds as though it's not accomplishing its purpose. I think one reason I have a problem understanding why research materials are not readily available is because I live with a couple of tech kids who work for Intel, and come home and tell me that whole libraries are being put on-line, and on CD's (in fact I've been ordering CD books Octavo that may see the light of day once in ten years, if then). The local bookseller, Mike Powell sees no reason why any book should ever be out of print, all it requires is for the publisher to have it on CD and upon request transmit it to his site, which will soon have highspeed printers linked to binders. The customer could order a title, it would be transmitted, printed, and bound ready for pickup the next day. I realize that libraries aren't "free" every time I vote for a bond issue (my property taxes are up over $1800 a year and climbing). Never-the-less, in a more perfect world those that hold fragile or one-of-a-kind things should be scanning them and distributing them on CD or some other medium as quickly as possible. There is no reason for fire, flood, mishandling, or theft should destroy the patrimony of the whole human race. The Legion of Honor Museum in San Francisco is trying to get good quality reproductions of their collections out for this very reason. They live in earthquake country, and realize that everything could be lost forever in the shift of a moment. Wanda, dreamer "Keyboard! How quaint!" P.S. Robin, you might keep the list abreast of what the costs for the photo permissions will be. Perhaps something could be worked out via a pre-publication subscription (If the Tower of London can do it for their armor collection...) -----Original Message----- From: Robin Netherton To: 'h-costume@indra.com' Date: Monday, June 14, 1999 8:10 PM Subject: H-COST: Publication of Kalamazoo papers (was: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article) >>Sigh. Don't I wish I had copies of all the papers I've heard at K'zoo over >the last 15 years that had some costume references in them. Sometimes you >can request a copy of the paper from the presenter, but most of the time >it's lost forever, unless you take notes. My own "papers" are actually in >lecture format and not suitable for distribution; the summary I posted to >the list of this year's talk was the closest that bit of research has ever >come to written form, and that may be the closest it ever gets. > >However... my colleague Gale Owen-Crocker, who is in a much better >position to put together publications than I am (and who, as a university >professor, is expected to do so), has edited a collection of 15 costume >papers that have been presented at K'zoo over the last few years -- that's >not all of them, but it's a goodly number. We have it the manuscript out >to a publisher for review right now. Cross your fingers that they agree to >publish it. If so, I'll let you know when it comes out, and how to get it. > >In any case, publication will take a while; although all the text is >written, we still have to do things like get permissions for >illustrations. That will be a pricey proposition for me, as I don't have a >university to subsidize costs like that, so I must pay out of my own >pocket for the various pictures I really need to include with my two >articles. As a professional journalist, I've seen photo permissions run as >much as $200 each routinely, so the cost can become prohibitive unless I >can get a better rate because this would be a limited-run scholarly >publication. If I can't get affordable permissions, or if I can't get >access to specific images (some of the pictures I need are from >manuscripts in foreign libraries), I will have to redraw some of them. I >know redrawings are inferior, but it's better than nothing at all. > >--Robin > > > scott hulett [118,504]CSuX:publication of kalamazoo papers (was: janet arnold s eliz. & Subject: Re: H-COST: Publication of Kalamazoo papers (was: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & From: Scott Hulett Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:24:11 -0700 -Poster: Scott Hulett Wanda, Excellent, excellent, excellent. Thank you for a well written piece. It is continually frustrating to live in a world full of info, much of which is somewhere else. Bravo. cheers, jd Wanda Pease wrote: > -Poster: "Wanda Pease" > > Robin, This may sound like a challenging question, and I don't mean > to get in your, or anyone else's face. I'm ignorant of exactly what > you do and what the norm is in academia, so I'm going to ask a > question that may seem rude. > > If the research and knowledge you and your fellow conference goers > (evidently over 15 years) present simply disappears after you are > through with the presentation, what good is it? You of course have > learned a great deal, but if it isn't passed on it means the next > person interested in the same subject (if they don't know you, or the > other presenters) must start from the beginning, re-inventing the > wheel as it were. If the point of the Kalamazoo exercise is to add to > the store of human knowledge, it sounds as though it's not > accomplishing its purpose. > > I think one reason I have a problem understanding why research > materials are not readily available is because I live with a couple of > tech kids who work for Intel, and come home and tell me that whole > libraries are being put on-line, and on CD's (in fact I've been > ordering CD books Octavo that may see the light of day once in ten > years, if then). The local bookseller, Mike Powell sees no reason why > any book should ever be out of print, all it requires is for the > publisher to have it on CD and upon request transmit it to his site, > which will soon have highspeed printers linked to binders. The > customer could order a title, it would be transmitted, printed, and > bound ready for pickup the next day. > > I realize that libraries aren't "free" every time I vote for a bond > issue (my property taxes are up over $1800 a year and climbing). > Never-the-less, in a more perfect world those that hold fragile or > one-of-a-kind things should be scanning them and distributing them on > CD or some other medium as quickly as possible. There is no reason > for fire, flood, mishandling, or theft should destroy the patrimony of > the whole human race. The Legion of Honor Museum in San Francisco is > trying to get good quality reproductions of their collections out for > this very reason. They live in earthquake country, and realize that > everything could be lost forever in the shift of a moment. > > Wanda, dreamer > "Keyboard! How quaint!" > > P.S. Robin, you might keep the list abreast of what the costs for > the photo permissions will be. Perhaps something could be worked out > via a pre-publication subscription (If the Tower of London can do it > for their armor collection...) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin Netherton > To: 'h-costume@indra.com' > Date: Monday, June 14, 1999 8:10 PM > Subject: H-COST: Publication of Kalamazoo papers (was: Janet Arnold's > Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article) > > >>Sigh. Don't I wish I had copies of all the papers I've heard at > K'zoo over > >the last 15 years that had some costume references in them. Sometimes > you > >can request a copy of the paper from the presenter, but most of the > time > >it's lost forever, unless you take notes. My own "papers" are > actually in > >lecture format and not suitable for distribution; the summary I > posted to > >the list of this year's talk was the closest that bit of research has > ever > >come to written form, and that may be the closest it ever gets. > > > >However... my colleague Gale Owen-Crocker, who is in a much better > >position to put together publications than I am (and who, as a > university > >professor, is expected to do so), has edited a collection of 15 > costume > >papers that have been presented at K'zoo over the last few years -- > that's > >not all of them, but it's a goodly number. We have it the manuscript > out > >to a publisher for review right now. Cross your fingers that they > agree to > >publish it. If so, I'll let you know when it comes out, and how to > get it. > > > >In any case, publication will take a while; although all the text is > >written, we still have to do things like get permissions for > >illustrations. That will be a pricey proposition for me, as I don't > have a > >university to subsidize costs like that, so I must pay out of my own > >pocket for the various pictures I really need to include with my two > >articles. As a professional journalist, I've seen photo permissions > run as > >much as $200 each routinely, so the cost can become prohibitive > unless I > >can get a better rate because this would be a limited-run scholarly > >publication. If I can't get affordable permissions, or if I can't get > >access to specific images (some of the pictures I need are from > >manuscripts in foreign libraries), I will have to redraw some of > them. I > >know redrawings are inferior, but it's better than nothing at all. > > > >--Robin > > > > > > > connie carroll [46,505]CSuX:embossing on fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: embossing on fabric From: "Connie Carroll" Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 04:22:05 +0000 -Poster: "Connie Carroll" Greetings, Sorry, don't have a specific time period as I'm asking this queston for several people from different time periods. I know that in current time (now) we can emboss velvet using rubberstamps and a steam iron - that's where this idea came from. The patterns you can achieve are wonderful and made me wonder if we could do it for SCA garb. Kassandra NickKraken > -Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" > > Good morning! > > If you could narrow down *which* period and what garment(s) (ie: > elizabethan doublet, or garment of earlier or later period) and what > country, I may be able to assist...a little! > > Gia/Giacinta > -----Original Message----- > From: Connie Carroll > To: h-costume@indra.com > Date: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 2:55 AM > Subject: H-COST: embossing on fabric > > > > > >-Poster: "Connie Carroll" > > > >Does anyone know if embossing on fabric, mainly velvet is period? > >I'm thinking of using rubber stamping for this purpose but the > >thought of whether they might have used wood blocks came to me. > > > >Any thoughts? > > > >Kassandra NickKraken > >JUST CALL ME MISTRESS BUNNY > > > JUST CALL ME MISTRESS BUNNY lynn carpenter [24,506]CSuX:what inspired h .j. ford? Subject: H-COST: What inspired H .J. Ford? From: Lynn Carpenter Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 06:24:13 -0400 -Poster: Lynn Carpenter As a Christmas present a couple of years ago, my husband bought me the entire Andrew Land "Fairy Book" series: The Red Fairy Book, The Grey Fairy Book, et cetera, collected fairy tales from different countries. These books were originally published around 1900. They were illustrated by H. J. Ford. One of the things that I always liked about them, and probably one of the things that spurred my interest in the SCA, was the beautiful dresses the princesses and heroines are wearing in the illustrations. Does anyone else have these books, who can help me identify what inspired H. J. Ford? What time period, countries, and so on, dresses like this might have come from? Or were they entirely out of his (her?) imagination? If so, I think I want to go buy my clothes there! Lynn cynthia long [41,507]CSuX:silk floss Subject: Re: H-COST: silk floss From: Cynthia Long Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 06:26:43 -0600 (MDT) -Poster: "Eterna Silk" Hi all... I've been lurking for almost a whole year here--my my it's a busy list, isn't it! Just wanted to let everyone know about a new line of silk thread/floss. This is just an FYI, I'm not trying to sell it to anyone (I can't, as I'm the manufacturer, anyway). For more information (for your favorite shop to stock it, if they wish) check out the homepage: http://www.eternasilk.com The reds are not colorfast if you wash them in hot water with detergent, but hold up well after a pre-wash in cool to tepid water with a very mild soap or detergent. This is a new line of thread; should be showing up in your stores sometime late summer, early fall. all the best, -Peri ----- Original Message ----- > > -Poster: Cynthia Long > > I agree. The knowledgable lady where I buy all my needleworking > supplies says that she only trusts Zwicky brand for colorfastness. > FWIW, > Cynthia > > > Be careful with the silk floss though. There are several different > > varieties available and some are more colorfast than others. Krennicks > > bleed like crazy. Test a bit of your silk for dyefastness. > melanie wilson [13,508]CSuX:nettles and retting in water... Subject: H-COST: Re: nettles and retting in water... From: Melanie Wilson Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:26:32 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson > The fibers are seperated out by hand from the stalk of the "field retted" plant (you let the plant weather in the field for the first couple of rains in the fall). ...... Think about the fairy tale of the Swan Brothers... the little sister crushed the nettles with her feet and separated the fibers with her hands. How can you do this without being stung to death ???? Mel snspies@aol.com[13,509]CSuX:h-costume-digest v4 #382 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #382 From: SNSpies@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:37:29 EDT -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com << Re: nettles and retting in water... << DON'T! The bast fiber in the nettle or milkweed will rot right along with the stems. >> Ah ha! Thanks for this info, Katrina. I'll try it again with "field retting" sometime. Nancy snspies@aol.com[8,510]CSuX:bast fibres -nettle Subject: Re: H-COST: Bast fibres -nettle From: SNSpies@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:38:37 EDT -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com << The last time I tried it, these cute little tiny red spiders got into it and chewed the nettles up. Yuck! >> We must be gluttons for punishment! Or just crazy! snspies@aol.com[11,511]CSuX:publication of kalamazoo papers (was: janet arnold s Subject: Re: H-COST: Publication of Kalamazoo papers (was: Janet Arnold's From: SNSpies@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:42:03 EDT -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com << If the research and knowledge you and your fellow conference goers (evidently over 15 years) present simply disappears after you are through with the presentation, what good is it? >> Amen/Awomen to that, Wanda. Nancy cynthia j ley [16,512]CSuX:period mongol garb Subject: Re: H-COST: Period Mongol garb From: cynthia j ley Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:02:43 EDT -Poster: cynthia j ley Many thanks to all who have sent such great info on Mongol patterns! :-) Indebtedly yours, Arlys Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. henk t jong [64,513]CSuX:embossing on fabric Subject: Re: H-COST: embossing on fabric From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 20:02:36 +0200 -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi, Erica wrote: > What books do you suggest that would provide sketches and detailed info on a > variety of time periods? I am trying to a build a good basic library for > myself and never seem to be able to know which books are accurate. Your > insight is most appreciated. The variety of time-periods: aye, there's the rub... To have a period of 2000, 3000 or 4000 yaers of costume in one book, be it ever so hefty, is a too daunting task. Herbert Norris tried to and needed seven books to do it in, but he was an interpreter in the vein of Viollet-le-Duc; he drew (literally) his own conclusions. Besides that: everytime only the dress of the upper classes of a few European countries are represented, hardly ever the other, much, larger part of society. So an overview is, by definition, always a limited view. In my opinion, my period, the middle ages, is always a very small part of such an overview, while my favourite part (1250-1350) is hardly ever dealt with or just very fleetingly (nobility again). If you want to know about several periods, look them up seperately and slice them in, say, 50 year parts. Try to get as many different pictures of a given period. Copy them, sketch details, note down colours and, of course, the original source + the book or other medium you found it in. Try to get authentic descriptions or other references to costume of this period in as original sources as possible and copy these. The larger your scope the longer you'll need to complete a good overall view of a period. It literally takes years. F.i. I have been doing 1250-1350 for more than 10 years now and can safely say that now I have a pretty clear view of dress of all classes in England, Netherlands, Flanders, middle to northern France, Germany, Switzerland, some parts of Scandinavia, Poland and Tsjechia and of northern Italy. I have some idea about Spain, Scotland, the Balkan, Austria, Hungary, hardly any of Portugal, North Africa, Byzantium and the near East, Russia, etc. Of course, I dabble in other periods too, but my research there is based on what others are doing now, especially on this list: these are not my periods but those of others. And I don't mind; I can learn of these people and sometimes their finds can be integrated in my research, which only makes it richer. What I found is: don't do overviews, specialise and loose yourself in a world of detail, colour, dresscodes and background. There's a lifetime of work in this and it's fun, especially when you're reconstructing and wearing the clothes of your favourite period. Don't think, though, I am only interested in my 100 years of the middle ages. I already own costumes of 9th c Frisians and monks of several periods, and I'm starting a 15th c costume. One of my dreams is also to own a perfectly ordinary set of clothes of a Dutch burgher of 1625. Oh well, perhaps in a few years... Henk fred struthers [30,514]CSuX:egyptian clothing Subject: Re: H-COST:Egyptian clothing From: Fred Struthers Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:59:08 -0700 -Poster: Fred Struthers Patricia Ward wrote: > > -Poster: Patricia Ward > > Could someone please point me to any websites that would help us in > designing Egyptian clothing for women for a history project? We are > looking, of course, for Ancient Egypt. > I have just what you are looking for: Vogelsang-Eastwood, Gillian. PATTERNS FOR ANCIENT EGYPTIAN CLOTHING. 1992. Netherlands. historical and practical. excellent guide for recreating men and women's dress. line illus. including patterns. lg 4to. wraps. 48 pages. $16.00 Contact me: Fred Struthers BOOKS ON CLOTH & RL Shep Publications fsbks@mcn.org -- Fred Struthers http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks lavolta press [117,515]CSuX:publication of kalamazoo papers Subject: Re: H-COST: Publication of Kalamazoo papers From: Lavolta Press Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:29:34 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press > You of course have > learned a great deal, but if it isn't passed on it means the next > person interested in the same subject (if they don't know you, or the > other presenters) must start from the beginning, re-inventing the > wheel as it were. If the point of the Kalamazoo exercise is to add to > the store of human knowledge, it sounds as though it's not > accomplishing its purpose. > > I think one reason I have a problem understanding why research > materials are not readily available is because I live with a couple of > tech kids who work for Intel, and come home and tell me that whole > libraries are being put on-line, and on CD's (in fact I've been > ordering CD books Octavo that may see the light of day once in ten > years, if then). The local bookseller, Mike Powell sees no reason why > any book should ever be out of print, all it requires is for the > publisher to have it on CD and upon request transmit it to his site, > which will soon have highspeed printers linked to binders. The > customer could order a title, it would be transmitted, printed, and > bound ready for pickup the next day. > > I realize that libraries aren't "free" every time I vote for a bond > issue (my property taxes are up over $1800 a year and climbing). > Never-the-less, in a more perfect world those that hold fragile or > one-of-a-kind things should be scanning them and distributing them on > CD or some other medium as quickly as possible. There is no reason > for fire, flood, mishandling, or theft should destroy the patrimony of > the whole human race. The Legion of Honor Museum in San Francisco is > trying to get good quality reproductions of their collections out for > this very reason. They live in earthquake country, and realize that > everything could be lost forever in the shift of a moment. Well, without it seeming that _I'm_ getting into someone's face, I'd remark that putting "the store of human knowledge" on-line, or on CD-ROM, probably sounds easier to people who don't have to do it. Anyway . . . information, art, music, etc. _are_ valuable. For this reason, those who create and distribute them can charge for their work. Because creation, distribution, etc. involve significant work, time, and monetary expense, and because selling your work through a paying medium garners more professional respect than distributing it free, people often do charge if they can find any way to do it. And they have every right to charge. Libraries and other institutions who distribute copyright-expired material free on the web, and provide other public services, get paid via tax money, grants, etc. Magazines who distibute a few free articles on the web (a) have permission from the authors and (b) are using this as a marketing technique in the hope of more profit on their printed magazines, much like the offers of "one free issue and subscribe if you like it" offers I get in my snail mail. Individuals usually either find a publisher who provides professional expertise and fronts the money for publication, in exchange for a share of the profits; or they assume the publisher's/producer's role themselves, doing all the work and fronting all the money. Without going into confidential business details, I can testify that publishing even an anthology takes many months of full-time work, many thousands of dollars for printing and other expenses, and, if done digitally, lots of high-end, expensive computer equipment. Of course materials distributed on-line and on CD-ROM can be charged for. The day will soon come when far more material is available on disk or for download at a price. However, the technical mechanisms for distributing and charging for such material are not yet fully in place. Take web downloads: Most individuals have monitors with no more than about 96 dpi resolution. This is lousy resolution for fine art materials, or even clear viewing of small or difficult text I think most book printers use about 2400 dpi. Then, most individuals do not yet have high-speed computer lines, and the net is overloaded with the increasing numbers of people joining it. Downloading large images of even 96 dpi or so can be very tedious. OK, so maybe people can put high-res files on-line in "zipped" format . . . but then there's the printing issue. Staring at a monitor for long periods is more uncomfortable, and less portable, than holding a book. For this reason many people like to print materials they download. Most home and office printers are set up for 8 1/2" by 11" and possibly legal size pages; but books and other printed materials are designed for many other sizes. Furthermore many people do not own color printers. So there's the question of how to deal with all that. And of course a printer, printer paper, and notebooks to put all that loose paper in aren't free. There are also layout questions. Print matter publishers pay a great deal of attention to how material is laid out on a page. But with people using monitors of varying sizes, it is significantly harder to design a good layout. I understand some portable "electronic book" hardware is available--you pop in the disk and read the book on the "electronic book's" screen. But for many books to be published in such a medium, there has to be a critical mass of people who own the hardware. But in turn, they won't buy the hardware until enough books they want are available that way. Then there are the problems with charging for electronic material. There is as yet no standard mechanism for charging royalties for downloads. There are, as far as I know, also no really good techniques to prevent illegal copying of CD-ROMs or material downloaded from the web. These technical problems will almost certainly be solved; but until they are, print matter will remain the primary publishing medium. I think a stance of "put it all on disk immediately or it will soon vanish forever" is somewhat alarmist. Anyway, since I live in earthquake country too, not that far from the Palace of the Legion of Honor, I (a) braced my house ("earthquake proofing" has been or is being done in most local museums and other public buildings, and many private homes as well); and (b) I keep several sets of backups disks in different locations. Fran Grimble hope h. dunlap [56,516]CSuX:1930 s dresses Subject: Re: H-COST: 1930's Dresses From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 14:39:07 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" The Costumers' Manifesto Web site has a fabulous collection of images for 1930's everyday and dress clothes, including shoes, hose, men's, and children's clothes: For the 1934 Sears catalog in color, with everyday dresses ranging from 89 cents to 1.59, see http://www.costumes.org/pages/1934sears.htm. Don't miss the silk crepe and rayon knit lingerie. The main page for 1930 stuff is : http://www.costumes.org/pages/1930links.htm Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of AlbertCat@aol.com -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 6/16/99 3:03:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, r-abbott@oar-xch1.oar.uiuc.edu writes: << Could anyone point me to any Web resources so I could learn more about the everyday styles of the period? I really don't know a thing about '30's clothing, and my searching only turned up movie costuming and fancy gowns. >> I don't know about web sites but....ever watch "Little Rascals"? A great source of everyday clothing...when you can find an adult. Also non-fashion mags of the period like Time or "home maker" types are good. You'll have to run to the local library. Also there are many modern patterns that are all but 1930 skirts....slender & fitted to the hips with a flair [in the form of pleats or godeys sometimes] at the mid-calf hem. _____ majordomo@indra.com lynn meyer [46,517]CSuX:hald book Subject: H-COST: Re: Hald book From: Lynn Meyer Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:50:37 -0700 -Poster: Lynn Meyer >From: griffinhold@usa.net >Date: 17 Jun 99 13:33:34 MDT >Subject: > >>I recently heard a rumor that Margrethe Hald's book, Ancient >>Danish Textiles from Bogs and Burials, is back in print. I did a >>search on Amazon.com and it said it was out of print. > >I just bought a copy about a month ago at the National Museum in Copenhag= >en. > >They seem to have a stock of them and trot out one copy at a time until >someone buys it. A friend of mine was in Copenhagen last fall and bought what >she thought was the last remaining copy. Unfortunately I'm at work and don't >have an address, but the museum name is NATIONALMUSEET. Try seeing if you can >reach them via the web. Cost of the book is about $50.00 US. BTW, it's a >great book! > >If you can't reach them via the web, maybe Leif/Bjarne can help. >Good luck! >Lyn Gillespie I've sent email to the National Museum asking about this (do they sell it, what's the price, do they take Visa/Mastercard, do they ship to the US). I'll pass on what I learn. The "Museum Shop" part of their website only listed jewelry -- very, very nice reproduction jewelry! is the home page of their website, and is the English-language version. I got there from a website containing a list of umpteen museums, very handy!, at . Hoping, Lynn ---- Lynn Meyer, Mountain View, San Francisco Bay Area, CA (Halima de la Lucha, Crosston, Mists, West) LMeyer@netbox.com lynn meyer [41,518]CSuX:books Subject: H-COST: Re: books From: Lynn Meyer Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:00:58 -0700 -Poster: Lynn Meyer >From: RobesOf@aol.com > >What books do you suggest that would provide sketches and detailed info on a >variety of time periods? I am trying to a build a good basic library for >myself and never seem to be able to know which books are accurate. Your >insight is most appreciated. > >Erica I too am interested in this. I've been building up a specialized library on Spanish costume (SCA period -- post-Roman thru 1600ish), but I'd like to have an overview of general European costume during that same time frame. The overview books I had originally, got wiped out in a flood that reached my storage unit -- which may have been a good thing since they were the easily available books that I've since learned are pretty inaccurate. (The Spanish books were safely in my second-floor apartment!) I'd like to get some overview books again, covering mainstream medieval Europe, but I don't know which ones are best. Is there, perhaps, a good overview of medieval English costume, another one for French, another for Italian, etc? I agree with Henk about specializing to some extent, but I like to have an overview framework to give me context for my specialty interest. Thanks, Lynn ---- Lynn Meyer, Mountain View, San Francisco Bay Area, CA (Halima de la Lucha, Crosston, Mists, West) LMeyer@netbox.com linda yordy [28,519]CSuX:hald book Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Hald book From: "Linda Yordy" Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:13:34 -0700 -Poster: "Linda Yordy" > I've sent email to the National Museum asking about this (do they sell it, > what's the price, do they take Visa/Mastercard, do they ship to the US). > I'll pass on what I learn. . . . > http://www.natmus.min.dk/> is the home page of their website, and > http://www.natmus.min.dk/IXGB.HTM> is the English-language version. Lynn: Thanks! I tried looking them up on the web yesterday, and everytime I clicked on their link, it said that no data was contained in the file. Maybe their server was down. I've also found out that the book is distributed here in the U.S. by a company called David Brown Book Co. Can't find them on the net. Have an email to Amazon.com to see if they have connections. Linda Yordy Center for Management Development 1910 University Drive Boise, ID 83725-1660 ******************************************************** Yordy's Law #3: When wearing white, apply your lunch directly to your shirt -- it will end up there anyway. susan fatemi [19,520]CSuX:period mongol garb Subject: Re: H-COST: Period Mongol garb From: Susan Fatemi Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:50:17 -0700 -Poster: Susan Fatemi cynthia j ley wrote: > > -Poster: cynthia j ley > > Many thanks to all who have sent such great info on Mongol patterns! :-) Could you post the information to the list?? I only saw a couple of replies. Susan -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf merouda the true of bornover [20,521]CSuX:hald book Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Hald book From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:09:21 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > I've also found out that the book is distributed here in the U.S. by a > company called David Brown Book Co. Can't find them on the net. > Have an email to Amazon.com to see if they have connections. The David Brown Book Co. can be reached through www.oxbowbooks.com or at 1-800-791-9354. -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir lavolta press [153,522]CSuX:electronic vs paper Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: electronic vs paper From: Lavolta Press Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:10:17 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press Sarah Toney wrote: > -Poster: Sarah Toney > > I have to disagree with you here... most of what you > just told us I could get access to at work fairly > easily. Heck, I have a 5.25 floppy drive on my home > computer specifically for research! > > Yes, for the general public to be able to access it, > it will need to be upgraded... BUT if it is put on > the internet, this problem will be easily solved. > Even if it's an locked internal intranet server, this > would work... when tech changes, most people will take > their web sites with them... > > I agree that this information should be stored > electronically, and updated... I mean, imagine what > would be today if the Egyptians had stored everything > they knew in a way so we could still have it... Sure, but this involves time, work, and expense on the part of the people doing it. For example: Many books published during the 19th and 20th centuries are out of print. Their publishers did not keep them in print because they were not selling well enough to justify the expenses of reprinting them, marketing them, and warehousing them until they sold. No other publisher has reprinted them for the same reason. Maybe someday someone will, and maybe not. And the same for musical recordings. Some observations: (1) The existence of the Internet, and CD-ROMs, will not make the work and expense of writing, editing, illustrating, producing, storing, and marketing a work magically disappear. They may be reduced enough to make works with smaller markets worth producing, but they will not disappear. (2) The expenses and time involved in producing a large work, and even reprinting a work, are significant enough that the people doing the work require payment. They need not only to recover their expenses, but enough money to live on while they produce the work. (3) To justify the effort and expense of keeping a work available, or publishing/producing it to begin with, you need a large number of people to buy it. Expenses are usually amortized over the number of copies of the work sold. It is possible to publish an excellent book that does not make enough money to justify its publication. Publishers that do this often do not stay in business. Writers that do this often have trouble finding publishers. (4) The need to make a living, even the desire to become rich, is by no means diametrically opposed to the "academic" desire to contribute to the welfare of the human race or the "artistic" desire to "express" oneself. It is not unethical or crass to need money, or to require it for work done. Fran Grimble > > > It's a shame that we lose some of our history because > we didn't take the care to store it and move it... > Hollywood learned this the hard way... many of the > original old reels are corroded beyond repair. So, > what are they doing? They are upgrading all of the > remaining reels to a medium that they can store and > can be again upgraded when technology evolves. > > My two pence, > > sarah > > PS. Sorry it's so long... this is one of those topics > I have been working at for a long time. > > --- GRM Files wrote: > > > > -Poster: "GRM Files" > > > > Fran Grimble said, "I think a stance of 'put it all > > on disk immediately or > > it will soon vanish forever' is somewhat alarmist. > > > > It's also naive regarding the nature of the > > electronic world. How many > > people are able to read documents and files created > > by the Apple II > > computer? Ah, not many people had that brand. > > Well, how about the IBM PC? > > Remember those 5-inch soft diskettes that gave us > > the name "floppies"? How > > many can read the things on those? > > > > OK, what about the original Macintosh 128K cute > > little hard-shelled > > single-density diskettes? Hands up, if you can > > still read those with the > > computer you use regularly. Hmmm...that's rather > > what I thought. > > > > Oh, but those big computers in the sky aren't like > > that? Don't fool > > yourself. Not too long ago, 2400-foot reels of > > 9-track magnetic tape were > > standard issue in most big installations, but fewer > > and fewer and fewer > > places are able to read them now. And as the > > capacity of large, shared disk > > drives increases, the devices required to read and > > write them change as > > well. > > > > Let me put it this way: how do you view a Betamax-1 > > type video today? > > Uh-huh. For longevity and survival, someone has to > > move or copy the > > content. We can expect the same will be true for > > every "contemporary" form > > of electronic storage. Things change. That CD may > > be five years from now > > what a 45rpm vinyl disk is today--a curiosity, > > something you need an arcane > > kind of antique to play. (Well, maybe ten > > years--but maybe sooner.) > > > > > > > > majordomo@indra.com > > > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > -- --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm lavolta press [56,523]CSuX:electronic vs paper Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: electronic vs paper From: Lavolta Press Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:50:16 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press > > > Yes, for the general public to be able to access it, > it will need to be upgraded... BUT if it is put on > the internet, this problem will be easily solved. > Even if it's an locked internal intranet server, this > would work... when tech changes, most people will take > their web sites with them... I should add that, for example, my ISP gives me email and enough disk space for two small web sites (plus a little more disk space than I currently need) for about $30/month. But they do not give me enough space to put one entire book on-line. If I required that, they'd either charge me a lot more (costs I'd have to pass on to readers) or possibly, refuse to provide it because they don't want to allot that much space to one customer. Another issue is the amount of the material on the web. It's already hard to sort through all the irrelevant stuff to find what you want, and the quantity is growing rapidly. So publishers will have to market their material, or possibly pay for it to be put in web directories, to help readers find it. Think of a bookstore . . . you walk in and there are hundreds of books. You may find some you want by random browsing. But books that are heavily advertised, so readers go to bookstores looking for them, sell much better. Many people are not motivated enough to hunt for obscure books, but will buy books they hear about a lot and that are prominently displayed to them. But again, marketing costs get passed on to readers. Also, publishers will probably continue charging more for works that are not in much demand. As I said in an earlier message, costs get amortized over the number of copies sold. This is why Stephen King's bestsellers get published as $6 mass market paperbacks and academic studies don't. It's not a question of which is a better type of book, it's a question of demand. Because many publishing costs are the same on or off the net, there is no reason for the supply-and-demand laws of pricing to change. I'm not saying publishing on the web and CD won't increase. I'm just saying it's not easy or free to publish this way. Fran Grimble --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm sarah toney [33,524]CSuX:electronic vs paper Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: electronic vs paper From: Sarah Toney Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:59:24 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney > I'm not saying publishing on the web and CD won't > increase. I'm just > saying it's not easy or free to publish this way. > > Fran Grimble No, you're absolutely right... it's not free... and I'm not saying that even everything should still be available to the public... but it's sad that we as an entire society can't manage to keep our hands on some of this stuff... For example: my boyfriend recently purchased a book for me. He didn't open it because it was wrapped up due to its crumbling condition, but he knows I like old books. I opened it up to find a handwritten book of sewing tips and techniques that was dated 1809. But, most of the book was unreadable... now, I wonder what information that woman, sitting in her home, sewing by hand, had that would have been of use to me and those I know who sew today. Why allow our kids and grandkids to be able to say the same when we have the technology to change that? Sarah Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com marsha j. hamilton [65,525]CSuX:digitizing (long and ot) Subject: Re: H-COST: Digitizing (Long and OT) From: "Marsha J. Hamilton" Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:21:16 -0400 -Poster: "Marsha J. Hamilton" >> Never-the-less, in a more perfect world those that hold fragile or >> one-of-a-kind things should be scanning them and distributing them on >> CD or some other medium as quickly as possible. There is no reason >> for fire, flood, mishandling, or theft should destroy the patrimony of >> the whole human race. Many research libraries and other institutions are doing just that. My university library takes brittle, deteriorating, out-of-print books and makes preservation microform and CD copies. We, like other placed dedicated to preservation efforts, list these preservation copies on OCLC. Other libraries then know not to repeat the effort of copying that title and they know where to get it if they need a copy. This has been a major cooperative project among libraries for over a decade. To make a preservation copy, more work is involved than you might think. The original piece may be damaged, missing pages, break into pieces as you work with it... It is not uncommon to have to interlibrary loan other copies to fill in missing pages. Once a complete, copiable version is ready, it has to be copied, filmed and/or burned into a CD with some quality control, i.e. the page should be correctly exposed and centered on the frame, an attempt should be made to reproduce the original artifact as much as possible, illustrative materials need to be balanced for color, sharpness, etc. Because people are doing the work, one of the copies needs to be viewed for quality control to make sure no pages were left out, got over- exposed, etc. Then if the copies are all fine, you catalog the title again and add it to OCLC, do the accounting work, pay for the title, label and store it FOREVER. If the format for micro-readers or CD players change, you must REFORMAT everything done earlier (you don't remember paper microcards, do you?). The cost of this is tremendous. Excluding all set-up work (identifying titles to be saved, ILL'ing missing pages, collating, shipping to the copying company, proofing upon return, accounting, shelf prep, etc.) just the copying costs to have an average book reformatted to one acid-free paper copy can run $100-150 US. When you add additional copies in micro or CD format, that increases the price. The set-up work can double that cost for staff time and materials. Sooooo...it's amazing that as many research libraries as do continue to request grants from NEH and other places (a very time consuming process in itself) to preserve the cultural record. Many of these projects involve copying every title in a particular subject held by a library with a particularly comprehensive collection (we did a project of botanical works, I believe and are currently seeking funding to digitize/preserve our extensive 20th century American fiction collection, among other ongoing projects.) This is being done at a time when most libraries' budgets are relatively stable not increasing. Yet libraries must work cooperatively to obtain an expanding amount of material (especially electronic) at ever- increasing prices as well as preserve 150 years worth of knowledge printed on deteriorated acidic paper. (Did you know that some of the major research journals in chemistry cost over $20,000. US per year! That's twenty-thousand dollars for one paper subscription. If this were a more perfect world, we'd take the budget for one Stealth Bomber and put it into NEH grants for library digitizing. Anyone want to suggest that to your local politician? linda yordy [20,526]CSuX:hald book Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Hald book From: "Linda Yordy" Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 15:53:35 -0700 -Poster: "Linda Yordy" > The David Brown Book Co. can be reached through www.oxbowbooks.com or at > 1-800-791-9354. Thank you, thank you, thank you! It's probably too late to call since they're on the east coast. I've sent an email. Will post what I find out. Linda Yordy Center for Management Development 1910 University Drive Boise, ID 83725-1660 ******************************************************** Yordy's Law #3: When wearing white, apply your lunch directly to your shirt -- it will end up there anyway. lavolta press [36,527]CSuX:ragtime and 1920s ball in san francisco bay area Subject: H-COST: Ragtime and 1920s Ball in San Francisco Bay Area From: Lavolta Press Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 15:10:17 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press On Friday, June 25, the Pomander Club will host a ragtime/1920s ball in Palo Alto, CA. From 8 to 10 PM, the Paul Price Society Orchestra will pay two-steps, cakewalks, one-steps, waltzes, fox trots, tangos, maxixes, and Charlestons. The orchestra also sometimes plays 5/4 waltzes, the black bottom, the varsity drag, and other specialty dances. Stan Isaacs will teach a pre-ball workshop from 7 to 8. No partner is required. Period costume is admired but not required. The dance will be held at: St. Mark's Episcopal Church 600 Colorado Avenue (between Middlefield and Byron) Palo Alto, CA The dance floor is spacious, wooden, and not overwaxed. The hall is attractive and has good acoustics. There are some chairs on the sidelines for those who prefer to listen. The orchestra is very good, plays period accurate music, and is accustomed to playing for dancers. Admission to the ball and workshop is $10/person, $18/couple. Tickets available at the door. Fran Grimble --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm sarah toney [54,528]CSuX:looking for velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Looking for Velvet From: Sarah Toney Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:13:42 -0700 -Poster: "DEAN QUACKENBUSH" Did you ever get an answer to your question? ----- Original Message ----- > > -Poster: Sarah Toney > > > Excuse my ignorance, but what is a Houpelandes? > > Sarah > > > --- Nancy Santella wrote: > > > > -Poster: "Nancy Santella" > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > I live in Pa., for those in the SCA, 10 min. > > from Pennsic. That is New > > Castle,Pa. > > I am looking for reasonably priced cotton > > velvet to > > make > > Houpelandes. I have one source at $11.00 a yard but > > am > > having trouble > > finding others to compare. I will definitely welcome > > any > > help. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Anna OftderTurm > > > > > > Life is a Party. Each day is a gift, to be opened > > with > > Anticipation, Joy and Thankfulness. > > > > > > majordomo@indra.com > > > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > the purple elephant [33,529]CSuX:nettles and retting in water... Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: nettles and retting in water... From: The Purple Elephant Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:15:36 +0930 (CST) -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Fri, 18 Jun 1999, Melanie Wilson wrote: > > -Poster: Melanie Wilson > > > The fibers are seperated out by hand from the stalk of the > "field retted" plant (you let the plant weather in the field for the first > couple of rains in the fall). ...... Think about > the fairy tale of the Swan Brothers... the little sister crushed the > nettles with her feet and separated the fibers with her hands. > > How can you do this without being stung to death ???? > I always wondered this myself when I heard this story. Didn't part of the story go that she wasn't allowed to speak or make any noise as well? (As opposed to going 'Owie owie owie' I guess) I always thought that was very stoic, although now it just makes me wonder.... Is there a kind of nettle that stings less (I know when I was in England you were supposed to be able to tell by the colour of the flower but I wasn't keen to experiment :-)? Here there's a weed that looks very much like a nettle but has no sting. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ joan m jurancich [28,530]CSuX:nettles and retting in water... Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: nettles and retting in water... From: Joan M Jurancich Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 19:44:38 -0600 (MDT) -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 09:26 AM 6/18/99 -0400, Melanie Wilson wrote: > >> The fibers are seperated out by hand from the stalk of the >"field retted" plant (you let the plant weather in the field for the first >couple of rains in the fall). ...... Think about >the fairy tale of the Swan Brothers... the little sister crushed the >nettles with her feet and separated the fibers with her hands. > >How can you do this without being stung to death ???? > >Mel The "field retting" described by Katrina washes off the stinging "hairs" which are formed of oxalic acid crystals (that's why you wait until after a couple of rainstorms). You can then harvest the plants and rub them between your hands to release the fibers. This is also the way you harvest milkweed fibers. Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com penny ladnier [12,531]CSuX:medieval webpage Subject: H-COST: Medieval Webpage From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 22:13:37 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" I just reformatted my Medieval webpage, http://www.costumegallery.com/Medieval.htm . Previously some of you commented that the text colors made it difficult to read. Can a few of you check the page and email me privately if you can read the text or not. Thank you... Penny http://www.costumegallery.com penny ladnier [101,532]CSuX:employment opportunity Subject: H-COST: Employment Opportunity From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 22:28:17 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" This was sent to me to forward to interested people. If you are interested in the job, please contact them at the address at the end of this message. >Arizona State University > >Vacancy Notice >Open to Public - National Search > >COSTUME SHOP COORDINATOR >DANCE > >STAFF REQ NO.: N-100703 SALARY: $28,041-31,959 DOE >POST DATE: 06/17/1999 FTE: 100% >LOCATION: ASU Main Campus NO. OF POSITIONS: 1 >DURATION: REGULAR WORK HOURS: M-F, 8-5 >JOB CLASS: 060970 JOB GRADE: M33 >JOB TYPE: CLASSIFIED STAFF FLSA TYPE: EXEMPT >Resumes accepted until 5 pm on: 07/01/1999 > > DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES: Designs and/or implements costume design for >eleven dance concerts > per year. Trains and supervises subordinates and student workers in the >design, construction, repair, > alteration, maintenance and storage of theatrical costumes. Coordinates the >operation of the costume shop. > Oversees the construction of costumes according to the design concept, >costume modification and > construction, coordinates the purchases of fabric, notions and used >clothing for costume shop adhering to > the production budget, inventory of costumes and materials, the >construction, alteration, repair, > cleaning/maintenance and storage of theatrical costumes, and coordinates >purchase and/or construction of wigs and theatrical make-up. Monitors >fittings of costumes to performers. Coordinates space usage for cast >dressing needs. Oversees production-running crews for costume changes >required during rehearsals and performances. Oversees and inventories >donations of clothing and materials to costume shop. Teaches production >classes, teaches costume design for dance, and provides assistance with >costume requirements for student projects. Maintains and reconciles budgets >for departmental productions; monitors expenditures and performs simple >analysis on accounts; prepares reports for supervisor and authorizes >payments within prescribed limits; makes recommendations for purchases. >Other duties and responsibilities as required. > > MINIMUM QUALIFICATIONS: Bachelor's Degree in Theater, Costume Designer or >related field AND two > years experience in costume construction, alteration and repair of >costumes; OR, six years experience in a > costume shop engaged in construction, alteration and repair of theatrical >costumes; OR, any equivalent > combination of education and/or experience from which comparable knowledge, >skills and abilities have > been achieved. > > DESIRED QUALIFICATIONS: Demonstrated ability in costume design and >construction for Dance in > formal and informal settings. MFA in Costume Design or related field. > > TO APPLY: Submit cover letter, resume, and the names, addresses, phone >numbers of 3 professional > references. Specify job title and the Staff Request Number. Submit a >costume portfolio. > >If selected for an interview, the applicant will be required to complete and >sign a Pre-employment Inquiry >Form. ASU does not pay candidates for travel expenses associated with >interviewing, unless otherwise >indicated by the department at the time of call for interview. Work >experience must be verifiable to include >employment dates. ASU offers generous benefits to its eligible employees >including vacation leave, paid >holidays, sick leave, self & dependents-reduced tuition, retirement, group >life insurance, long-term disability >coverage, medical insurance programs, flexible benefits plan and dental >insurance plans. You may view our >'Jobs on the Web' Site at http://www.asu.edu/hr/jobs/. > > TO APPLY: > Submit materials listed above specifying job title and > SR# N-100703 by 5 pm to: > Arizona State University > Human Resources > Box 871403 > Tempe, AZ 85287-1403 > Fax: (480) 965-6640 > As of Date: 06/17/1999 > > Arizona State University is an equal opportunity/affirmative >action employer. > > > > sarah toney [94,533]CSuX:looking for velvet Subject: Re: H-COST: Looking for Velvet From: Sarah Toney Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 20:05:15 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney Yep... thanks for asking... actually, since you guys explained it to me, I decided to make on and went out and bought white velvet (at, oh pain, $18.00 per yard... I'm a sucker. ;-) It should be fun.;-) Sarah --- DEAN QUACKENBUSH wrote: > > -Poster: "DEAN QUACKENBUSH" > > Did you ever get an answer to your question? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sarah Toney > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 8:47 AM > Subject: Re: H-COST: Looking for Velvet > > > > > > -Poster: Sarah Toney > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but what is a Houpelandes? > > > > Sarah > > > > > > --- Nancy Santella > wrote: > > > > > > -Poster: "Nancy Santella" > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > I live in Pa., for those in the SCA, 10 min. > > > from Pennsic. That is New > > > Castle,Pa. > > > I am looking for reasonably priced > cotton > > > velvet to > > > make > > > Houpelandes. I have one source at $11.00 a yard > but > > > am > > > having trouble > > > finding others to compare. I will definitely > welcome > > > any > > > help. > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > Anna OftderTurm > > > > > > > > > Life is a Party. Each day is a gift, to be > opened > > > with > > > Anticipation, Joy and Thankfulness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > majordomo@indra.com > > > > > > > > > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > majordomo@indra.com > > > > > > majordomo@indra.com > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com snspies@aol.com[15,534]CSuX:nettles and retting in water... Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: nettles and retting in water... From: SNSpies@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 23:56:33 EDT -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com << Is there a kind of nettle that stings less (I know when I was in England you were supposed to be able to tell by the colour of the flower but I wasn't keen to experiment :-)? Here there's a weed that looks very much like a nettle but has no sting. >> It's called White (or another color) Dead Nettle, the 'dead' referring to it having no sting. I'm not sure if it is related to the stinging nettle, however. Nancy the purple elephant [32,535]CSuX:nettles and retting in water... Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: nettles and retting in water... From: The Purple Elephant Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 09:10:43 +0930 (CST) -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Fri, 18 Jun 1999 SNSpies@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com > > << Is there a kind of nettle that stings less (I know when I was in England > you > were supposed to be able to tell by the colour of the flower but I > wasn't keen to experiment :-)? Here there's a weed that looks very > much like a nettle but has no sting. >> > > It's called White (or another color) Dead Nettle, the 'dead' referring to it > having no sting. I'm not sure if it is related to the stinging nettle, > however. > > That sounds right...the red flowered ones sting and the white don't. Actually I just saw a reference to dead white nettle in an article I'm reading on Prehistoric food in Britain. The drawing of it looks very much like a nettle. The Latin name given is Lamium album, if that means anything to the botanically inclined. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ sara j. davitt [24,536]CSuX:e-bay sales Subject: H-COST: E-bay sales From: "Sara J. Davitt" Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:04:03 -0500 (CDT) -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" For the Religious buffs: Vintage Vestment - Tailored Bishops Cassock http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=118139890 For the People who want to be Austin Powers: Daddy-o's Hippest Platform Shoes! (Bright Red) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=118119947 OT:for the Fans of Goddess Culture: Handpainted- Unfolding Table Altar to Sophia http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=118371053 Thanks! **2Y's**UR**2Y's**UB**IC**UR**2Y's**4Me** nancy gilly / philippa grey [31,537]CSuX:electronic records Subject: H-COST: Re: electronic records From: Nancy Gilly / Philippa Grey Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 22:01:57 -0400 -Poster: Nancy Gilly / Philippa Grey On 18-6-99 "R.L. Shep" wrote: >I have always been told that those things have a definite shelf life and it >is not as long as some of us would suppose. Indeed. Back when I was in library school, in 1990 or 1991, I seem to remember hearing that CDs (the professionally produced ones, not just read/write) had a shelf life of probably not much more than 10 years, especially if they were not played. The problem isn't how the information is stored on the disk so much as the substrate which holds the material the information is stored on. Just like cheap late 19th or early 20th century papers self destructs, so do (or at least did till recently) electronic media substrates. That's one of the reason that those floppies you made backups on 15 years ago, even stored in ideal conditions, may not be readable today. It's also why many of us classical music types have kept our turntables. The stuff hasn't been copied over to CDs, and any way, a vinyl record, well cared for, will be playable a century from now, the CD, who knows? And even when the substrate stays intact electronic media still seem to be prone to natural degredation, (they need to be read and copied to a new floppy at least once a year for any guarantee of survival). So - acid free paper! and anyway it's hard to cart the computer over to the table where I'm doing my cutting, or the comfy chair where I do my embroidery, and I really hate having to keep going back and forth. 8) Philippa lynnx@mc.net[26,538]CSuX:wrap like an egyptian Subject: H-COST: Wrap Like An Egyptian From: lynnx@mc.net Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:16:30 -0700 -Poster: lynnx@mc.net Don't know of any websites offhand, but (yeah I know, lousy reviews) but try to ILL _Ancient Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Persian Costume_ by Mary Houston, pub. A. & C. Black Ltd. (Note: Her other book on Egyptian is said to stink, but I think overall her Euro costume stuff is supposed to be o.k. (comments, anyone?) and I have a 'zox from another book that quotes her descriptions on how to wrap various styles. (Sorry can't remember the name of that book - it's at the library & I don't get out much). > From: Patricia Ward > Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:38:50 -0400 > Subject: Re: H-COST:Egyptian clothing > > - -Poster: Patricia Ward > > Could someone please point me to any websites that would help us in > designing Egyptian clothing for women for a history project? We are > looking, of course, for Ancient Egypt. > > thanks, > Patti Ward lynnx@mc.net[11,539]CSuX:*flash* - egyptian collections! Subject: H-COST: *Flash* - Egyptian collections! From: lynnx@mc.net Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:27:52 -0700 -Poster: lynnx@mc.net Just found this 5 minutes after I said I didn't know of any sites... It's a list of museums with Egyptian collections. Haven't checked it out, but somebody on it may have links... http://www.idsc.gov.eg/culture/140m.htm Heather lynnx@mc.net[15,540]CSuX:bast fiber sites, nationalmuseet site Subject: H-COST: Bast fiber sites, Nationalmuseet site From: lynnx@mc.net Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:02:50 -0700 -Poster: lynnx@mc.net A few sites that may help out with bast (stem) fiber processing: http://www.linen-flax.com/ http://www.amug.org/~az4norml/usda_yearbook.html http://www.libeco.be/eng/business/fr_pros.htm And the Nationalmuseet url is http://www.natmus.dk/ Heather melanie wilson [55,541]CSuX:nettles Subject: H-COST: Nettles From: Melanie Wilson Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 04:25:33 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Is there a kind of nettle that stings less (I know when I was in England you were supposed to be able to tell by the colour of the flower but I wasn't keen to experiment :-)? Here there's a weed that looks very much like a nettle but has no sting. Yes the dead nettle, had NO sting and has white flowers, we suck the end of the flowers for the sweet nectar ! Stingers don't have coulred flowers. Stingers is what we called the nettle that stings (obvious but I thought I'd best make it clear !) But dead nettles are small & softer alround and not that common ie not as weeds every where like as the stinger, I'm not sure they are long enough for fibre production either >The "field retting" described by Katrina washes off the stinging "hairs" which are formed of oxalic acid crystals (that's why you wait until after a couple of rainstorms). You can then harvest the plants and rub them between your hands to release the fibers. This is also the way you harvest milkweed fibers. I'm not convinced but I'll go & wash a nettle in a while & blame you if I get stung :) According to The Englishmans Flora, nettle cloth was made in Scotland until the 18th C, Thomas Campbell 1777-1844 spoke of nettle sheets & nettle table cloths. Popular in Denmark & Norway too. Nettle cloth in Danish Bronze age graves. Modern records 1917 of nettle weaving in the Tyrol. Nettle fabric is not harsh but very fine apparently. Folklore Nettles prevented milk from being affected by house trolls or witches. Roman nettle (?extinct) called so after the romans apparently stinging themselves against the cold of britain ! Didn't look like a nettle so was good for practical jokes...ouch Nettle Urtica dioica Dead nettle Lamium album good for Kings evil...whatever that might be :) These have different names & are in different chapter so I guess not closly related at least ! Ok this nettle stuff is intreresting anyone want to try & make cloth ? soup ?(nice I eat it) omlettes ? Acne wash ? (excellent) cordial (I got a nice nettle cordial from the WI, but I can't find it again :( ), etc ? Mel leif drews [43,542]CSuX:a nglaise Subject: H-COST: A'nglaise From: leif drews Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:20:27 +0200 -Poster: leif drews Dear all My project in making a robe a l'anglaise is getting along all right, i am still making the bobbin lace for trimmings, and it will take ca. 2 months yeat before i have finished. I have started making the corset for the dress, and i use the corset in Norah Waughs book of corsets and crinolines. The half boned stays on page 42. Now i want some espert help here! The bones that lies cross like over the bust, is that to make the bust look bigger? Are the breasts pushed up here or are the breasts just surposed to reast inside the boning. I am thinking about the bouffant look so much admired in those days. Thease cross bones are they made to exaggerate the bust line? Another thing i am thinking of how to make is the skirt. When i am going to stitch the overskirt to the bodice. I will make cartricge pleating here.And i want to turn the curved waistline edge (-the superfluos-fabric) and keep it inside the skirt to help it being surported. Am i to stitch the skirt to the bodice linning only? It is a little difficult to express my meaning in a forreign language, but i do hope you understand what i mean, and please forgive my spelling. I would be very greatfull if someone could tell me a little about it! ( i remember i saw a polonaise dress where all the superfluos fabric from the deep back bodice curve was lying under the skirt) Bjarne. Leif Drews Åboulevard 5, 3 th 1635 København V Bjarne Drews Åboulevard 5,3.th 1635 København V tlf. 35 37 13 70 [37,543]CSuX:a nglaise Subject: Re: H-COST: A'nglaise From: Date: Sun, 20 Jun 99 12:14:11 -0000 -Poster: Bjarne wrote, >The bones that lies cross like over the bust, is that to make the bust >look bigger? The horizontal bones are there to give a rounded shape to the front, but not bigger. >Are the breasts pushed up here or are the breasts just surposed to rest >inside the boning. The top edge of the stays ends up at the peak of the bustline, about nipple height. The breasts are compressed as the figure is made into a cone shape, and "pleasing mounds" are the result at the top. >I am thinking about the bouffant look so much admired in those days. The bouffant look came in around the 1790s, with the oversized kerchief. Though the bust looked bigger, it was really done with the amount of fabric in the kerchief (fichu) rather than the shape of the stays. The century started with a very staright shape and developed to a more natural shape. As Lynn Sorge calls it, "From cone to comfort". >Another thing i am thinking of how to make is the skirt. When i am >going to stitch the overskirt to the bodice. I will make cartridge >pleating here.And i want to turn the curved waistline edge (-the >superfluos-fabric) and keep it inside the skirt to help it being >surported. Am i to stitch the skirt to the bodice linning only? In originals, the skirt is sandwiched between the bodice fabric and the bodice lining fabric. -Carol Kocian lynn carpenter [31,544]CSuX:hair work Subject: H-COST: hair work From: Lynn Carpenter Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 14:31:45 -0400 -Poster: Lynn Carpenter Another list I am on was discussing "lost arts" which really aren't lost, including netting, making a fire with two sticks, and so on. One of those put forth was hair work, and I said I had seen someone on h-costume or h-needlework mention that they still did it. Is that person or those people still around? Because I received the following: > "...you reminded me of an ongoing quest I am on. About two years ago, I >had my hair cut (about1.5 feet hacked off ), with the intention of >spending less money on shampoo and getting the hair worked into jewelry, >doodads, etc. The money-saving part worked. The jewelry part did not. I >do not want to learn how to do it myself (I'm not lazy, I'm just saving my >time for tatting and beading . . . oh, yeah, and working, I suppose). I am, >however, willing to pay a skilled person to do it for me. > >So, does anyone make hair jewelry for hire? Does anyone know someone who >does? I had a lead two years ago but she very politely wrote back that she >was overwhelmed with stress and work and was not taking commissions. Any >information would be appreciated! Thanks!" Until I have permission to post her email address, I will forward replies (private, or to the lists) to her. Lynn penny ladnier [20,545]CSuX:egyptian costume Subject: H-COST: Egyptian Costume From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 14:32:45 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" I picked up a book from the CSA silent auction called Patterns for Ancient Egyptian Clothing by Gillian Vogelsang-Eastwood. The patterns are made after some of the famous artwork. I am impressed that the book showed how to put the garments on. I don't know how good the book is yet. I'll let you know after I take my Egyptian class next month. Two books I have to buy for my class are Egyptian Art by Cyril Aldred and Reading Egyptian Art by Richard H. Wilkinson. As for museums with collections the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts currently has the exhibit Splendors of Ancient Egypt. Also the Cargarie (sp) Museum in Pittsburgh has a nice collection of Egyptian artifacts. Later...Penny http://www.costumegallery.com penny ladnier [11,546]CSuX:udc Subject: H-COST: UDC From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 14:53:55 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" I am thinking about doing another internship. Do anyone know if the United Daughters of the Confederacy has a costume collection? Later...Penny http://www.costumegallery.com r.l. shep [14,547]CSuX:seattle costume sources Subject: H-COST: Seattle costume sources From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:03:00 -0700 -Poster: "R.L. Shep" I am working on a revision of a Textile and Costume Resources list for the Henry Art Gallery, covering Washington State. I would like to get more Costume Sources into it. Especially I would like to find the local chapter of SCA. Please send information and suggestions off line - or not - rlshep@jps.net or by phone to 206-729-9041 Thanks ~!~ R.L.Shep http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks margo anderson [25,548]CSuX:hair work Subject: Re: H-COST: hair work From: Margo Anderson Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:12:02 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson I have another question related to hair work. In the 1850 Godey's lady book I recently purchased, there is an article on making hair jewelry. the fascinating thing about it to me is that is is done using exactly the same tools as techniques as Japanse kumihimo. The article gives instructions for making a maru dai (braiding stool) although it doesn't call it that. . There is no reference to this being a Japanese technique, which is not surprising given that Admiral Perry didn't storm into Japan for another four years. So, did this technique somehow sneak out of Japan, or did it evolve independantly, or ....??? Oh, and just to complicate things, somewhere in QE's Wardrobe, Janet Arnold says that laces and ties were made with techniques identical to those used in Japan, although she doesn't give a reference. Are there any weaving and braiding historians out there who want to have fun with this? Margo leif drews [18,549]CSuX:a nglaise Subject: H-COST: A'nglaise From: leif drews Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 21:21:28 +0200 -Poster: leif drews Dear Carol Kozian Thanks for your replyes. You have helped me a great deal here! I have made the corset exactly the same size as the pattern draft and it fits my dressstand very vell. I am just surprised, as i was thinking that the corset would be much smaller. Has Norah Waugh made the corsets bigger so that they can fit modern women? In Nancy Bradfields book Costume in detail, there are some drawings of interior cutting and stitchins for some robes 1770-80, and they have the superfluos fabrick at the deep back point outside the bodice. you have to make a big curve at the centre back bodice on the skirt. I have been reading that this superfluos fabrick, helped the skirt to be surported better. Bjarne. arcadiacb@aol.com[9,550]CSuX:hairwork Subject: H-COST: re: hairwork From: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 16:22:39 EDT -Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com re the recent questions on hairwork--there is a web site for Victorian hairwork, including how to order new custom made jewelry from your own hair . The site address is Hair Mourning Jewelry- Victorian Hairwork Hope this helps the purple elephant [63,551]CSuX:nettles Subject: Re: H-COST: Nettles From: The Purple Elephant Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:25:23 +0930 (CST) -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Sun, 20 Jun 1999, Melanie Wilson wrote: > > Yes the dead nettle, had NO sting and has white flowers, we suck the end of > the flowers for the sweet nectar ! Stingers don't have coulred flowers. > Stingers is what we called the nettle that stings (obvious but I thought > I'd best make it clear !) Don't they? What is the nettle with red flowers then? I'm sure I've seen one.... > > But dead nettles are small & softer alround and not that common ie not as > weeds every where like as the stinger, I'm not sure they are long enough > for fibre production either > Yeah, I've noticed that of the 'nettles' here. I wonder if they are one and the same (I'm sure I've seen some flowering white), but they aren't particularly common either. There is one growing in my garden which is nice and shady and damp. I'll have to watch it carefully... > > > According to The Englishmans Flora, nettle cloth was made in Scotland until > the 18th C, Thomas Campbell 1777-1844 spoke of nettle sheets & nettle table > cloths. Popular in Denmark & Norway too. Nettle cloth in Danish Bronze age > graves. Modern records 1917 of nettle weaving in the Tyrol. Nettle fabric > is not harsh but very fine apparently. > Isn't Ramie made from a kind of nettle? That is usually sold here as 'handkerchief linen'. It can be very fine but is often scratchy. > Folklore Nettles prevented milk from being affected by house trolls or > witches. > > Roman nettle (?extinct) called so after the romans apparently stinging > themselves against the cold of britain ! Didn't look like a nettle so was > good for practical jokes...ouch > > Nettle Urtica dioica > > Dead nettle Lamium album > good for Kings evil...whatever that might be :) Scrofula? I think that is King's Evil. So-called because a touch from the king was supposed to cure it. I've usually heard it mentioned it reference to one of the Charleses in the seventeenth century. > > These have different names & are in different chapter so I guess not closly > related at least ! > > Ok this nettle stuff is intreresting anyone want to try & make cloth ? soup > ?(nice I eat it) omlettes ? Acne wash ? (excellent) cordial (I got a nice > nettle cordial from the WI, but I can't find it again :( ), etc ? > I've also read that nettle is useful for low blood pressure, so if you suffer from the reverse condition it's probably best not to overindulge. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ sue shatto [56,552]CSuX:hair work Subject: Re: H-COST: hair work From: Sue Shatto Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 21:40:00 -0400 -Poster: Sue Shatto I just attended the Hairworks Society conference in St Paul, Minn last weekend. I learned how to weave the flowers for a wreath from an excellent teacher, Diane Thorpe. Another Swedish lady taught the hair jewelry table braiding. She does hire out. I'm sure I can find her name and means of contacting her. At 02:31 PM 6/20/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: Lynn Carpenter > >Another list I am on was discussing "lost arts" which really aren't lost, >including netting, making a fire with two sticks, and so on. > >One of those put forth was hair work, and I said I had seen someone on >h-costume or h-needlework mention that they still did it. > >Is that person or those people still around? Because I received the >following: >> >"...you reminded me of an ongoing quest I am on. About two years ago, I >>had my hair cut (about1.5 feet hacked off ), with the intention of >>spending less money on shampoo and getting the hair worked into jewelry, >>doodads, etc. The money-saving part worked. The jewelry part did not. I >>do not want to learn how to do it myself (I'm not lazy, I'm just saving my >>time for tatting and beading . . . oh, yeah, and working, I suppose). I am, >>however, willing to pay a skilled person to do it for me. >> >>So, does anyone make hair jewelry for hire? Does anyone know someone who >>does? I had a lead two years ago but she very politely wrote back that she >>was overwhelmed with stress and work and was not taking commissions. Any >>information would be appreciated! Thanks!" > >Until I have permission to post her email address, I will forward replies >(private, or to the lists) to her. > >Lynn > > > Cordially, Sue Shatto Sue@VictorianMillinery.com http://www.VictorianMillinery.com snspies@aol.com[16,553]CSuX:egyptian costume Subject: Re: H-COST: Egyptian Costume From: SNSpies@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 23:58:53 EDT -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com Hello to the list. << I picked up a book from the CSA silent auction called Patterns for Ancient Egyptian Clothing by Gillian Vogelsang-Eastwood. The patterns are made after some of the famous artwork. I am impressed that the book showed how to put the garments on. I don't know how good the book is yet. I'll let you know after I take my Egyptian class next month. >> This should be very good. Gillian and her atelier in Leiden are the group who are analyzing the textiles from Tut's tomb. Nancy stacey [15,554]CSuX:looking for cotton grosgrain Subject: H-COST: Looking for Cotton Grosgrain From: "Stacey" Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 21:01:08 -0700 -Poster: "Stacey" Hi All, I'm back after a very long absence. I'm looking for a source for cotton grosgrain. I'm willing to do mail order. I'd like to avoid Britex if possible. Thank you! Stacey mzscahlett@aol.com[19,555]CSuX:film titles w/cigarette girls? Subject: H-COST: Film titles w/Cigarette Girls? From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 00:17:08 EDT -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com Hello list, does anyone know off-hand of some films with shots of standard 40's cigarette girl costumes in them? I'd appreciate any suggestions, as I don't have time to browse. Am just trying to find some samples for a friend without having to sketch them up. thanks angela +++++ Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing Theatrical Costume Design "Do you not know I am a woman?. When I think, I must speak." W. Shakespeare pierre & sandy pettinger [37,556]CSuX:braiding Subject: H-COST: Re: Braiding From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 23:36:08 -0500 -Poster: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger Margo, I have a book - "Braids - 250 Patterns from Japan, Peru, and Beyond" by Rodrick Owen. It covers lots of braid patterns. The majority are listed as originating in Japan or Peru (going back to the Incas), but some are listed as coming from the U.K., from sailors, or "worldwide" perhaps indicating that the same pattern was invented independently in several places? It also gives techniques for using slotted boards as well as a kumihimo. Sandy >- -Poster: Margo Anderson > > In the 1850 Godey's lady book I recently purchased, there is an article on >making hair jewelry. the fascinating thing about it to me is that is is >done using exactly the same tools as techniques as Japanse kumihimo. The >article gives instructions for making a maru dai (braiding stool) although >it doesn't call it that. . There is no reference to this being a Japanese >technique, which is not surprising given that Admiral Perry didn't storm >into Japan for another four years. > >So, did this technique somehow sneak out of Japan, or did it evolve >independantly, or ....??? Oh, and just to complicate things, somewhere in >QE's Wardrobe, Janet Arnold says that laces and ties were made with >techniques identical to those used in Japan, although she doesn't give a >reference. > >Are there any weaving and braiding historians out there who want to have fun >with this? > melanie wilson [32,557]CSuX:nettles Subject: H-COST: Nettles From: Melanie Wilson Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 03:09:56 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Don't they? What is the nettle with red flowers then? I'm sure I've seen one.... There is a red dead nettle, I suppose you could call the stinger flowers redish but not very flower like OMHO ! >Yeah, I've noticed that of the 'nettles' here. I wonder if they are one and the same (I'm sure I've seen some flowering white), but they aren't particularly common either. There is one growing in my garden which is nice and shady and damp. I'll have to watch it carefully... Scan it and I'd could probasbly tell you :) >Isn't Ramie made from a kind of nettle? That is usually sold here as 'handkerchief linen'. It can be very fine but is often scratchy. It states it isn't harsh so I'd assume that includes scratcy ? >Scrofula? I think that is King's Evil. So-called because a touch from the king was supposed to cure it. I've usually heard it mentioned it reference to one of the Charleses in the seventeenth century. Oh right >I've also read that nettle is useful for low blood pressure, so if you suffer from the reverse condition it's probably best not to overindulge. Isn't the mecanism different ? Mel teddy1 [31,558]CSuX:flowering nettles Subject: H-COST: Flowering Nettles From: teddy1 Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:53:31 +0000 (GMT) -Poster: teddy1 > << Is there a kind of nettle that stings less (I know when I was > in England you were supposed to be able to tell by the colour of > the flower but I wasn't keen to experiment :-)? Here there's a weed > that looks very much like a nettle but has no sting. >> > > It's called White (or another color) Dead Nettle, the 'dead' > referring to it having no sting. I'm not sure if it is related to > the stinging nettle, however. Interesting subject. All the kids I grew up with (and all my colleagues who are currently in the office) knew that flowered nettles don't sting and non flowering ones do. I've never heard of nettles with red flowers though, only white/dead nettles. As an aside, I was takinga visiting friend from Boston (US) around Highgate Cemetary a few weeks ago. It's very overgrown and I warned her to be careful of the nettles. It hadn't occured to me that someone might not know what nettles were but, apparently, she'd never encountered them and thought they were something that isn't common or doesn't appear in the US (like Hedgehogs and realistic English accents....) Teddy (Trustworthy Evil-Bunny of Destiny, part-time Knave and Creature of air and darkness, apparently!) luiseach@aol.com[22,559]CSuX:flowering nettles Subject: Re: H-COST: Flowering Nettles From: Luiseach@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:11:55 EDT -Poster: Luiseach@aol.com In a message dated 06/21/99 03:54:53 AM, Teddy wrote: <> I'm a native of southwestern US and I've never seen a nettle; someone would certainly need to warn me if I got near them. We have plenty of other plants that will bite the unwary, including "jumping cholla" cactus, but no nettles, so I've been finding this discussion fascinating. Lucinda p.s. you're right, we don't have hedgehogs either, but then the UK doesn't have skunks and I had to explain them to a visiting cousin last year. jessica wilbur [32,560]CSuX:flowering nettles Subject: Re: H-COST: Flowering Nettles From: "Jessica Wilbur" Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:47:04 -0400 -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > > -Poster: Luiseach@aol.com > > > In a message dated 06/21/99 03:54:53 AM, Teddy wrote: > > < Highgate Cemetary a few weeks ago. It's very overgrown and I > warned her to be careful of the nettles. It hadn't occured to me that > someone might not know what nettles were but, apparently, she'd > never encountered them and thought they were something that isn't > common or doesn't appear in the US (like Hedgehogs>> > > I'm a native of southwestern US and I've never seen a nettle; someone would > certainly need to warn me if I got near them. We have plenty of other plants > that will bite the unwary, including "jumping cholla" cactus, but no nettles, > so I've been finding this discussion fascinating. > > Lucinda > p.s. you're right, we don't have hedgehogs either, but then the UK doesn't > have skunks and I had to explain them to a visiting cousin last year. I'm from the Mid-Atlantic region of the United States (Virginia) and we do have stinging nettles here. I'm not sure I've ever seen a non-stinging variety, though. --Jessica hope h. dunlap [24,561]CSuX:cotton grosgrain ribbon Subject: H-COST: Cotton Grosgrain Ribbon From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:30:55 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Try http://www.ribbonry.com in Perrysburg, Ohio. There is an e-mail link on the website for asking questions. They carry over 1000 styles of ribbon, but unfortunately do not list the fibre content in the on-line catalog. Zeeman Corporation carries cotton-rayon grosgrain, and are available on-line at http://www.hatsny.com/zeeman/ Cotton-grosgrain ribbon in 40 colors avialable wholesale from Schiff Silk Mills in Quakertown, PA http://www.ribbons.thomasregister.com/olc/ribbons/raycotgr.h tm You can also reach them at 1-800-2-SCHIFF or 1-800-272-4433. Or Email at ribbons@pipeline.com. Hope H. Dunlap seamstrix@juno.com[22,562]CSuX:flowering nettles Subject: Re: H-COST: Flowering Nettles From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:41:55 -0500 -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Skunks and racoons and opossums, Oh my! And those jumping cholla really do seems to jump, says the Midwestern girl who had several encounters with jumping cholla that liked her a little too much! And our English friends don't seem to have the brightly colored birds that we have here (at least in Illinois) such as cardinals and blue jays. Of course we don't have magpies...... Karen On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:11:55 EDT Luiseach@aol.com writes: > >-Poster: Luiseach@aol.com >Lucinda >p.s. you're right, we don't have hedgehogs either, but then the UK >doesn't >have skunks and I had to explain them to a visiting cousin last year. amanda reeves [38,563]CSuX:film titles w/cigarette girls? Subject: Re: H-COST: Film titles w/Cigarette Girls? From: "Amanda Reeves" Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:18:17 -0500 -Poster: "Amanda Reeves" The Marx Brothers had them in some of their movies. ---------- > From: MzScahlett@aol.com > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Film titles w/Cigarette Girls? > Date: Sunday, June 20, 1999 11:17 PM > > > -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com > > Hello list, > > does anyone know off-hand of some films with shots of standard 40's cigarette > girl costumes in them? I'd appreciate any suggestions, as I don't have time > to browse. Am just trying to find some samples for a friend without having to > sketch them up. > > thanks > > angela > +++++ > Angela F. Lazear > Costumes & Custom Clothing > Theatrical Costume Design > "Do you not know I am a woman?. When I think, I must speak." > W. Shakespeare > QUICK-LINK: http://come.to/costumes > http://sj.znet.com/~thespian/angil/index.html sarah toney [55,564]CSuX:question on the velvet Subject: H-COST: Fwd: Fw: Question on the velvet From: Sarah Toney Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:36:13 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney Hello all! I have been talking to this woman from e-bay who sells velvet there... this is the letter I just received from her... enjoy! Share! Make beautiful things... and send me pictures. ;-) Have fun... also, she does sell on e-bay under the name bunycraft, so you may find some interesting stuff there... enjoy! sarah > >I am always looking for other places to sell my > velvet! You can order from > >me anytime! Bulk orders (over 5 yards) can be had > for $8.00 a yard. I > have > >Red, Hunter Green, Royal Blue, Navy Blue, White, > Black. > > > >If you are in CA, I have to add 8.25% tax. > > > >Shipping on 5 yards or more is $5.00. Less than 5 > yards is $3.20. > > > >Let me know what you want. Share my name and > address with all your > friends! > > > >I can also get exotic velvets that are stamped in > gold & other colors, with > >sequins, etc. Prices are higher, of course, but > they are so beautiful. > > > >Send a copy of this letter with your funds to > protect the prices I have > >quoted you! I get confused very easily. LOL > > > >Kay Cushing > >4759 Lakewood Blvd. > >Lakewood, CA 90712 > > > >(wish I had made my screen name Velvet > Rabbit...LOL) > > > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com linda yordy [15,565]CSuX:hald book Subject: Re: H-COST: Hald book From: "Linda Yordy" Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:58:53 -0700 -Poster: "Linda Yordy" I heard back from the David Brown Book Co. They say the book is out of print. Guess that route won't work. :-( Linda Yordy Center for Management Development 1910 University Drive Boise, ID 83725-1660 ******************************************************** Yordy's Law #3: When wearing white, apply your lunch directly to your shirt -- it will end up there anyway. merouda the true of bornover [27,566]CSuX:funeral effigies for sale Subject: H-COST: Funeral Effigies for sale From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:25:09 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover I just received the Funeral Effigies book from Westminster Abbey. It is a beautiful book. But it was not what I was looking for and most of the effigies are not my period of interest. I was really looking for pictures from the tomb casts and statuary. Not wooden or plaster dummies with clothing on them. The effigies are quite interesting and the clothing is outstanding. There are 4 SCA period effigies but only Elizabeth I has the clothing. Everything else is 17th-18th century. Not my time interest. I am wondering if anyone would like to purchase this from me. I paid 10 pounds for the book and 9.50 pounds for the shipping which comes to $32.37US. I would be happy to sell this to someone for $30US and I'll through in the shipping to your neck of the woods if you live in the US. Thanks, Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir merouda the true of bornover [14,567]CSuX:funeral effigies for sale Subject: Re: H-COST: Funeral Effigies for sale From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:55:36 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover It's gone already! Thanks! Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir hope h. dunlap [49,568]CSuX:1930 s dresses Subject: H-COST: RE: 1930's Dresses From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 17:32:59 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Sorry, Doo-fus behind the browser here. http://home.earthlink.net/~chazengan/vintage/Thirties.html "Misch" moved, stock fluctuates, thin right now: http://www.oldpatterns.com/master.html Lots at Marquise de Pompadour's site for patterns of the Twenties and Thirties: http://www.costumegallery.com/pompadour/schnitte/pat1920.htm l A new one: http://www.lilyabello.com/patternshop/ One 1935 blouse pattern here amid mostly 40's and later patterns. http://www.shopdoor.com/rustyzipper/search/shop99.cgi?ZZ=194 0&ZZ=All+Patterns&ZZ=21&ZZ= Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: mffski [mailto:mffski@ptd.net] Sent: Thursday, June 17, 1999 12:07 PM To: hhdunlap@email.msn.com Subject: 1930's Dresses Dear Hope, The following two URL's don't work! http://www.tiac.net/users/misch/simplicity2.html and go down to the bottom of the page as I member for the index to help you move around the site. http://home.earthlink.net/~chazengan/vintage/thirties.html Help? Maryanne mffski@ptd.net hope h. dunlap [56,569]CSuX:1930 s dresses Subject: Re: H-COST: 1930's Dresses From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 17:31:37 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" The Costumers' Manifesto Web site has a fabulous collection of images for 1930's everyday and dress clothes, including shoes, hose, men's, and children's clothes: For the 1934 Sears catalog in color, with everyday dresses ranging from 89 cents to 1.59, see http://www.costumes.org/pages/1934sears.htm. Don't miss the silk crepe and rayon knit lingerie. The main page for 1930 stuff is : http://www.costumes.org/pages/1930links.htm Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of AlbertCat@aol.com -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 6/16/99 3:03:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, r-abbott@oar-xch1.oar.uiuc.edu writes: << Could anyone point me to any Web resources so I could learn more about the everyday styles of the period? I really don't know a thing about '30's clothing, and my searching only turned up movie costuming and fancy gowns. >> I don't know about web sites but....ever watch "Little Rascals"? A great source of everyday clothing...when you can find an adult. Also non-fashion mags of the period like Time or "home maker" types are good. You'll have to run to the local library. Also there are many modern patterns that are all but 1930 skirts....slender & fitted to the hips with a flair [in the form of pleats or godeys sometimes] at the mid-calf hem. _____ majordomo@indra.com r.l. shep [11,570]CSuX:seattle costume Subject: H-COST: Seattle costume From: "R.L. Shep" Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:34:47 -0700 -Poster: "R.L. Shep" Thanks to everyone who replied to my inquiries for information about SCA in this area. I am still looking for OTHER sources of costume activity in the Seatle area and Washington State as a whole. Any information would be welcome. ~!~ R.L.Shep http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks kathryn l. herb [31,571]CSuX:need advice: enlarging 18c strapped stays Subject: H-COST: Need advice: Enlarging 18c strapped stays From: "Kathryn L. Herb" Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 18:03:15 EDT -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" O Esteemed Listees, I bow to your superior knowledge and experience: I've been given a pattern for strapped stays with a 34" bust and need to enlarge it to my own more ample and cushiony 42" bust with undoubtedly about a proportional increase in the waist. What's the best approach -- add several 1/2" or 1" bits evenly distributed throughout? And once the extra width (and any length) is added, do I keep the same number of bottom tabs but make them wider, or do I add tabs? And what other things do I need to know and do? The obvious solution is to get a bigger pattern, but financially it's out of the question right now. Beating the pattern into submission only costs time and nerves. Thanks for your thoughts and advice!! Kay kayherb@juno.com Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. melise leech [29,572]CSuX:elizabethan linen and accessories Subject: H-COST: Elizabethan linen and accessories From: Melise Leech Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:06:03 -Poster: Melise Leech Hi, My name is Melise Leech and I'm a grad student in history at UNLV (U of Nevada at Las Vegas). I recently was asked if I could find the answers to a couple of questions, and I'm hoping someone on this list can help. Does anyone know what linen of the Elizabethan period would have looked like? I'm mostly interested in quality of weave -- the density (?) of the cloth. (Sorry, I don't know the correct terms). From reading, it appears that there was a fine type of linen called "holland" which was presumably a better quality than the local stuff . . . is there a modern textile that compares comparably to 16th c. linen? My second (okay, third) question regards accessories. Has anyone a picture or description of an Elizabethan hankerchief? Gads, that sounds strange. This really is a legitimate request. I believe that the person requesting the information is trying to recreate the type of hankie a 16th c. magician might have used in a slight-of-hand trick. The exact question was "could you find a place that could make 110 linen hankerchiefs with tassel?" Did 16th c. hankerchiefs come with tassels?? Could anyone help? I will be most grateful for any assistance or advice. Regards, Melise Leech mleech@nevada.edu Las Vegas, NV danielle nunn [20,573]CSuX:costume books (was embossing on fabric) Subject: H-COST: Costume books (was Re:embossing on fabric) From: Danielle Nunn Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 23:34:03 -0400 -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, >What books do you suggest that would provide sketches and detailed info on a >variety of time periods? I am trying to a build a good basic library for >myself and never seem to be able to know which books are accurate. Your >insight is most appreciated. I don't know about sketches, my advice is avoid anything with re-drawn pictures. For a general overview I believe Davenport's "Book of Costume" or whatever it's called and Boucher's "20,000 Years of Costume" are both pretty good. The advantage to both of them is they contain a wealth of pictures. Cheers, Danielle rio@austin.rr.com (strangegirl)[79,574]CSuX:need advice: enlarging 18c strapped stays Subject: Re: H-COST: Need advice: Enlarging 18c strapped stays From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:33:40 GMT -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 18:03:15 EDT, you wrote: >I've been given a pattern for strapped stays with a 34" bust and need to >enlarge it to my own more ample and cushiony 42" bust with undoubtedly >about a proportional increase in the waist. What's the best approach -- >add several 1/2" or 1" bits evenly distributed throughout? Well, I've made entierly too many of these, so I can give you some advice which may even be useful ;) (WARNING: entirely too much information) Silly seamstress note: Spread the pattern pieces (tho you likely know this one already) rather than adding to the outside edges. :) Get someone to help you take detailed measurements of the part of you that will be in the corset. You may not need to spread the back or waist as much as the bust. These measurements are based on patterns that I have used, so you may need to adjust these slightly for your corset. For this type of pattern you will want to measure : Width of back from shoulderblade to shoulderblade ________ Length of back from shoulder (where the strap will sit, reference any pictures with the pattern) to waist_________ Same from shoulderblade level to just below waist in back_____ RIbcage under the bust, (from side to side at approx side seam on a fitted blouse) front_______ back______ whole_____ Waist (from side to side at approx side seam on a fitted blouse) Front_____ Back_______ whole_____ Side length from a comfortable distance under the arm to the waist________ Bust front (from side to side at approx side seam on a fitted blouse)______ Front length from where the corset should end (at or above nipple level, remember tha tthis may move when corested, so 'lift&squish' while measuring this) to the waist point (where you want it to end, center front________ Take the measurements and compare them to the pattern. They should give you a good Idea of where to spread the pattern and how much. I also reccomend getting some grid-printed pattern drafting material (usually with the interfacings at most fabric shops). It is transparent and has the grid on it, which makes enlarging patterns much easier. You just count the squares. It helps a lot. Also, make a muslin and fit this before making it up in good fabric with all the bones &c. You will want to know where it gaps or is too big or small before putting all the work into it. If all this is too much (and I don't blame you if it is *grin*), you can try the duct-tape-fitting technique at http://www.waisted.com Using your corset pattern as a reference for where to draw the seamlines. As for the tabs, I would jsut add more tabs, since wider tabs can act 'funny' - wrinkling, riding up, stretching, etc. Good luck and let us know how it comes out! Margery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~There is no spoon~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ {*to reply take "spambegone" from my reply-to address*} rio@austin.rr.com (strangegirl)[26,575]CSuX:costume books (was embossing on fabric) Subject: Re: H-COST: Costume books (was Re:embossing on fabric) From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:39:37 GMT -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) On Sun, 20 Jun 1999 23:34:03 -0400, Danielle Nunn wrote: >>What books do you suggest that would provide sketches and detailed info on a >>variety of time periods? >I don't know about sketches, my advice is avoid anything with re-drawn >pictures. A good exception to this rule (tho admittedly very england focused) is Historical Costumes of England 1066-1968 by Nancy Bradfield. Currently available form Costume and Fashion Press at $29.95 ea. Margery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~There is no spoon~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ {*to reply take "spambegone" from my reply-to address*} merouda the true of bornover [45,576]CSuX:elizabethan linen and accessories Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan linen and accessories From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:05:36 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > that there was a fine type of linen called "holland" which was presumably a > better quality than the local stuff . . . is there a modern textile that > compares comparably to 16th c. linen? Well, I guess lawn, but I don't know if you can find it that fine anymore. I was under the impression that 'holland' linen would look something like silk organza. > My second (okay, third) question regards accessories. Has anyone a picture > or description of an Elizabethan hankerchief? Gads, that sounds strange. Actually it's a perfectly reasonable request. I believe that in the Virgina and Albert Museum Textiles 1200-1750 has an Elizabethan handerchief in it. This is a relatively easy book to get your hands on. > This really is a legitimate request. I believe that the person requesting > the information is trying to recreate the type of hankie a 16th c. magician > might have used in a slight-of-hand trick. The exact question was "could > you find a place that could make 110 linen hankerchiefs with tassel?" Wow, no idea. I know that Hedgehog Handworks has plain linen hankies to embroidery. I don't have the contact info here are work. Anyone? > Did 16th c. hankerchiefs come with tassels?? The ones I have seen don't have tassels but have bobbin lace, sometimes gold, around the edge. I am sure not up to speed on 16th century magicians so I don't know what they might have used. I would imagine that a silk 'hankie/scarf' would have worked better for them then as they do now. But what do I know? Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir fopdejour1@aol.com[14,577]CSuX:elizabethan linen and accessories Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan linen and accessories From: Fopdejour1@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 19:04:55 EDT -Poster: Fopdejour1@aol.com Melise, While I can't provide you with the exact pictures, I can provide you with two sources where I know you can find your answers. On your question of Linnen: Look in Janety Arnold's _Paterns of doublet ca 1560. You can even see the weave of the fabric. On the next question, I am less sure. I haven't gone and checked my book, but I think there are examples of Handkercheifs in yet another Janet Arnold. _Queen Elizabeths' Wardrobe Unlo'ked_ Charles fopdejour1@aol.com[16,578]CSuX:elizabethan linen and accessories Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan linen and accessories From: Fopdejour1@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 19:10:21 EDT -Poster: Fopdejour1@aol.com In a message dated 6/21/99 11:07:58 PM !!!First Boot!!!, Fopdejour1@aol.com writes: << Look in Janety Arnold's _Paterns of Fashion: the cut and construction of clothes for men and women 1560-1820_ >> WHOOPS!!! that would be Janet Arnold, and 1560-1620. My Bad, Charles brian and julie schuck [13,579]CSuX:stinging nettle Subject: H-COST: Re: stinging nettle From: Brian and Julie Schuck Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 18:19:28 -0500 -Poster: Brian and Julie Schuck I'm living in Western Kentucky at the moment, and we definitely have stinging nettle here. (I've had some run-ins with the beasts while pulling the industrial-strength weeds that love my garden so much!) If there are the non-stinging variety here I haven't seen them. When I lived in the southwest and in Utah I never saw any nettles, but they are present in Eastern Oregon (the stinging ones, anyway). I can't imagine using stinging nettles in the raw to make anything except trouble! Julie pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[22,580]CSuX:h cost: line fibers Subject: H-COST: H cost: line fibers From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 19:50:33 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> No, it still works, even in ancient fibers. <> Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work out that way. Yes, many linen singles (particularly early American) seem to be spun the same direction, but it's not universal. Deborah pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[15,581]CSuX:h cost: buchanan books Subject: H-COST: H Cost: Buchanan books From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 19:50:28 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> As you can probably tell from the titles, A Dyer's Garden covers strictly dye plants: all aspects of cultivation and use. A Weaver's Garden deals with all plants used in textiles: fiber plants, dye plants, soap plants, use of seeds, etc. for starches and warp dressings, etc. lynn meyer [36,582]CSuX:buchanan, line fibers Subject: H-COST: Re: Buchanan, line fibers From: Lynn Meyer Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 17:09:42 -0700 -Poster: Lynn Meyer >From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) >Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 19:50:28 -0500 >Subject: H-COST: H Cost: Buchanan books > ><contains much that her "A Weaver's Garden" does not?>> > >As you can probably tell from the titles, A Dyer's Garden covers strictly >dye plants: all aspects of cultivation and use. > >A Weaver's Garden deals with all plants used in textiles: fiber plants, dye >plants, soap plants, use of seeds, etc. for starches and warp dressings, >etc. I guess my real question is this: if I already have a copy of "A Weaver's Garden", will I learn more by also getting a copy of "A Dyer's Garden"? I saw a copy of "Dyer's" very briefly, and noted that it was fairly thin. My copy of "Weaver's" is packed away in a box somewhere, since I moved fairly recently, so I can't get at it to see how much it has on dye plants. The place I've moved to allows me space for a garden... and dye plants are what I'd be most likely to grow. Thanks! And thank you for the info on linen spinning, too. I've done some weaving, but only read about spinning. Lynn kathryn l. herb [67,583]CSuX:need advice: enlarging 18c strapped stays Subject: Re: H-COST: Need advice: Enlarging 18c strapped stays From: "Kathryn L. Herb" Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:50:38 EDT -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:33:40 GMT rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) writes: >(WARNING: entirely too much information) NEVER too much information!!! >Silly seamstress note: Spread the pattern pieces (tho you likely know >this one already) rather than adding to the outside edges. :) Yes, she says, with great gnashing of teeth. It couldn't be just an inch or two, but ten!! >Get someone to help you take detailed measurements of the part of you >that will be in the corset. You may not need to spread the back or >waist as much as the bust.=20 Good point! Mother Nature seems to have seen fit to put most of it in the front, including an obnoxiously pillow-like belly. >These measurements are based on patterns that I have used, so you may >need to adjust these slightly for your corset. >I also reccomend getting some grid-printed pattern drafting material >(usually with the interfacings at most fabric shops). It is >transparent and has the grid on it, which makes enlarging patterns >much easier. You just count the squares. It helps a lot. Oooo -- never saw that stuff, but will definitely look for it! What a godsend it would be! >Also, make a muslin and fit this before making it up in good fabric >with all the bones &c. You will want to know where it gaps or is too >big or small before putting all the work into it. Should I put bones in strategic places on the muslin -- like along the seams, perhaps? >If all this is too much (and I don't blame you if it is *grin*) Nope -- sounds quite simple! >As for the tabs, I would jsut add more tabs, since wider tabs can act >'funny' - wrinkling, riding up, stretching, etc. That was my thought. Thanks for verifying that. >Good luck and let us know how it comes out! Got a pair of baghose to remake for someone first, then this!! I considered using my strapless stays to get the correct sizing, but they're so worn out and really of the wrong size any more, that I don't consider them to be useful. Your instructions have jogged my memory of fitting them (it's been eons since I did them) and gave me a few extra pointers. Thanks!! Kay kayherb@juno.com Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. rio@austin.rr.com (strangegirl)[47,584]CSuX:need advice: enlarging 18c strapped stays Subject: Re: H-COST: Need advice: Enlarging 18c strapped stays From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 03:33:46 GMT -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:50:38 EDT, Kay wrote: >I also reccomend getting some grid-printed pattern drafting material >(usually with the interfacings at most fabric shops). It is >transparent and has the grid on it, which makes enlarging patterns >much easier. You just count the squares. It helps a lot. Oooo -- never saw that stuff, but will definitely look for it! What a godsend it would be! It hides. it's a non-woven 'fabric' like the pellon brand interfacing, and in fact looks remarkably like super-lightweight sew-in pellon interfacing. Very thin and transparent. There are two kinds: One has little dots every inch or so, which seem like a good idea, but in practice jsut sort of get in the way. The other is the blue grid-print. Just like an enormous sheet of graph paper, except that it can actually be draped if necessary. I think it's called tru-grid, but I'm not sure. Clotilde ( http://www.clotilde.com ) has something similar, but I can't tell if it is actually paper or not. They refer to it as 'swedish gridded paper' and 'Swedish Gridded Tracing/Drafting Paper', so I would call tehm or email them and ask. If it's the real stuff, get it form them if you can't find it your local shop, their prices look like a good deal. >>Also, make a muslin and fit this before making it up in good fabric >>with all the bones &c. You will want to know where it gaps or is too >>big or small before putting all the work into it. >Should I put bones in strategic places on the muslin -- like along >the seams, perhaps? Yes, along seams and centre front and back. Tip: Bias tape works fine for casings on a muslin. Good luck! Margery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~There is no spoon~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ {*to reply take "spambegone" from my reply-to address*} seamstrix@juno.com[16,585]CSuX:elizabethan linen and accessories Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan linen and accessories From: seamstrix@juno.com Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 23:15:17 -0500 -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Elizabethan linen came in a variety of different weights which were used for differeing purposes and by different economic classes. The very light linen which was used for shifts and partlets was used by the very wealthy. I had the opportunity to closely examine the hankerchiefs at the V&A and they were of a medium weight linen and had bobbin lace around the edges. I didn't see any with tassels although there is a period portrait which appears to show the corner of a hankie hanging out of a man's pouch with a tassel attached. Karen bustiebutt@aol.com[21,586]CSuX:1920s costume--help! Subject: H-COST: 1920s costume--help! From: BustIeButt@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 00:35:02 EDT -Poster: BustIeButt@aol.com Hi, I will be attending a dance event on Friday that requires 1920s dress. I know the "era" pretty well, but I have a few problems that I thought some people on this wonderful list might be able to help me with: ----First of all, how can I flatten my large rump without the aid of a period girdle? I was going to use Ace bandages or tape for the bosoms, but my I don't think this will work on my butt (the hips aren't the problem, by the way) ----Second, I have almost hip length curly hair and I'm not sure what to do with it for the event. I was thinking of sort of folding it under and pinning it under a cloche to resemble short hair, but this is kinda tacky. Any other advice on 1920s ladies dress would be appreciated! Thank you all in advance for your help!!!! Aja arianne de dragonnid mka grace payne [37,587]CSuX:flowering nettles Subject: Re: H-COST: Flowering Nettles From: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 00:50:30 -Poster: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:53:31 +0000 (GMT), teddy1 wrote: >Interesting subject. All the kids I grew up with (and all my >colleagues who are currently in the office) knew that flowered >nettles don't sting and non flowering ones do. I've never heard of >nettles with red flowers though, only white/dead nettles. > >As an aside, I was takinga visiting friend from Boston (US) around >Highgate Cemetary a few weeks ago. It's very overgrown and I >warned her to be careful of the nettles. It hadn't occured to me that >someone might not know what nettles were but, apparently, she'd >never encountered them and thought they were something that isn't >common or doesn't appear in the US (like Hedgehogs and realistic >English accents....) I grew up in the southeastern US and know for a FACT that we had stinging nettles (there, the rather sensible common name for the ones that sting). There was a big patch of them in a shady area right behind our house, and one of the major foot-paths on our land went right through it. I don't recall them EVER flowering. The type of nettle I'm unfamiliar with is the kind that flowers and DOESN'T sting. Yours in the Dream, Arianne de Dragonnid Shire of Castlemere, Kingdom of Trimaris %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% "The founder of my noble line was wont to see Dragons. His Lady rode out from the forest in a gown of samite and was as young on the day he died as on their wedding day." %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% mzscahlett@aol.com[15,588]CSuX:1920s costume--help! Subject: Re: H-COST: 1920s costume--help! From: MzScahlett@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 01:24:41 EDT -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 6/21/1999 21:36:26 Pacific Daylight Time, BustIeButt@AOL.COM writes: << -Second, I have almost hip length curly hair and I'm not sure what to do with it for the event. I was thinking of sort of folding it under and pinning it under a cloche to resemble short hair, but this is kinda tacky. >> There are numerous hairstyles that work for long hair, as every woman did not have a bob, even though it was one of the more popular ways to wear your hair. If you can give me more info - e-mail me privately and I'll try to pull out one of my books on the subject to see if I can scan an example of an appropriate "up-do." lisaleon@hawaii.edu[39,589]CSuX:elizabethan linen and accessories Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan linen and accessories From: lisaleon@hawaii.edu Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 20:03:23 -1000 -Poster: lisaleon@hawaii.edu > My second (okay, third) question regards accessories. Has anyone a picture > or description of an Elizabethan hankerchief? Gads, that sounds strange. > The exact question was "could > you find a place that could make 110 linen hankerchiefs with tassel?" > Did 16th c. hankerchiefs come with tassels?? Melise, I have two photos of Elizabethan handkerchiefs in the book Elizabethan Embroidery by George Wingfield Digby. Part of the text that describes one of them is as follows: It is embroidered in pale yellow and green silks in double running stitch and has a border of gold and silver lace, with tassels at the four corners. So yes, some of them did have tassels. The picture is not all that clear, and 'tassels' isn't the term I'd have used to describe them. They don't looks as fringe-y as what I think of as tassels, more of a pendant or braid. --annora Lisa Leong * <| lisaleon@hawaii.edu .^. * * .=.=.=. * * <| ^V V V^ <| \^ ^ ^/ | | \^ ^ ^/ | |^^^^| |^^^^| | | [] [] [] | | ":":":":...:":":":" | ~~~|________[oIo]________|~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ melanie wilson [13,590]CSuX:nettles red Subject: H-COST: Nettles Red From: Melanie Wilson Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 02:21:22 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Interesting subject. All the kids I grew up with (and all my colleagues who are currently in the office) knew that flowered nettles don't sting and non flowering ones do. I've never heard of nettles with red flowers though, only white/dead nettles. Red are much less common than white, I can't remeber the last I saw, but I have seen them ! Like red squirrels :) Mel melanie wilson [11,591]CSuX:nettles- no sting after rain ! Subject: H-COST: Nettles- no sting after rain ! From: Melanie Wilson Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 02:21:21 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson OK you were right, heavy rainfall today, no sting in the nettles, fascinating ! So what was the process after the rain ? & how many nettle do you need for an gram of yard do you think ? Mel the purple elephant [32,592]CSuX:nettles Subject: Re: H-COST: Nettles From: The Purple Elephant Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:43:02 +0930 (CST) -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Mon, 21 Jun 1999, Melanie Wilson wrote: > > -Poster: Melanie Wilson > > >Don't they? What is the nettle with red flowers then? I'm sure I've > seen one.... > > There is a red dead nettle, I suppose you could call the stinger flowers > redish but not very flower like OMHO ! Well, I'm operating on a rather old recollection. Also you tend to get some very odd 'flowers' in this part of the world. :-) > > Oh right > >I've also read that nettle is useful for low blood pressure, so if you > suffer from the reverse condition it's probably best not to overindulge. > > Isn't the mecanism different ? > I have no idea...as I said, just something I read somewhere... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ melanie wilson [11,593]CSuX:more out the library ! Subject: H-COST: More out the library ! From: Melanie Wilson Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 04:42:20 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson Embroidery Transfer Book http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120764474 Patterns for Canvas Embroidery by Diana Jones http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120764383 Mel leif drews [23,594]CSuX:elizabethan linen. Subject: H-COST: Elizabethan linen. From: leif drews Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:35:44 +0200 -Poster: leif drews In Denmark we have a very fine linen cloth, called in danish "kammerdug" (chamber cloth) It is a very fine eaven linnen especially used to make fine lace handkerchiefs with. I dont know the english name for it. You can buy it at the danish embroiderers guild. Bjarne. Leif Drews Åboulevard 5, 3 th 1635 København V Bjarne Drews Åboulevard 5,3.th 1635 København V tlf. 35 37 13 70 lynn carpenter [23,595]CSuX:nettles, stinging & non Subject: H-COST: Nettles, stinging & non From: Lynn Carpenter Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:41:47 -0400 -Poster: Lynn Carpenter Just to throw in a few words from my horticulture background: Nettles that sting all belong to the family Urticaceae. Some members of the family lack the stinging hairs. I don't know whether the fiber from those is used for cloth. The "flowers" of the Uricaceae are little green things, not pretty or showy. Um, think marijuana flowers. Having once been stung by a nettle, you will never forget it! Most of the false, hemp, or dead nettles belong to the Labiatae family, the same family as mints. They either flower between the leaf and stem, or in a little "crown" on top of the plant. The flowers can be either white or a purplish-red, and are much more showy, at least compared to stinging nettles. Both are found in the US. Unfortunately for me, I have only found the stinging ones locally. If anyone wants them for fiber, you will have to come collect them yourself! Lynn teddy1 [28,596]CSuX:nettles red + stinging & non Subject: H-COST: Nettles Red + stinging & non From: teddy1 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:26:45 +0000 (GMT) -Poster: teddy1 > Subject: H-COST: Nettles Red > - -Poster: Melanie Wilson > > Red are much less common than white, I can't remeber the last I > saw, but I have seen them ! Like red squirrels :) OK Mel, if you can find them, perhaps you should bring me a bunch of them next time you pop in to see me.... > Subject: H-COST: Nettles, stinging & non > - -Poster: Lynn Carpenter > > Most of the false, hemp, or dead nettles belong to the Labiatae family, > the same family as mints. Hmmm.... That ties in with something I noticed the other day. In a rare fit of "gardening" I decided to do away with the large patch of nettles in our front yard, only to discover it was, in fact, lemon-mint. The lemon-mint can stay.... Teddy (Trustworthy Evil-Bunny of Destiny, part-time Knave and Creature of air and darkness, apparently!) tc carstensen [37,597]CSuX:1920s costume--help! Subject: Re: H-COST: 1920s costume--help! From: "TC Carstensen" Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 06:56:07 -0400 -Poster: "TC Carstensen" wrote: >----Second, I have almost hip length curly hair and I'm not sure what to do >with it for the event. I was thinking of sort of folding it under and >pinning it under a cloche to resemble short hair, but this is kinda tacky. One trick I've seen in a lot of silent movies is for women with long hair to roll it under at the nape of the neck so that it resembles a shorter cut with the ends curled under as in this picture http://www.silent-movies.com/Ladies/Swanson/Swan06.jpg They also acheived a shorter effect by massing their hair in the back and holding it in place with a band as in this picture from a Gloria Swanson movie http://www.silent-movies.com/Ladies/Swanson/Swan107.jpg A lot of times, the short hair effect was so complete that I didn't realize that the heroine had long hair until they did a hairdressing scene. Granted, this probably works best if your hair isn't wildly thick. BTW, these pictures came from the Silent Ladies website, which is an exellent pictorial archive for 1920's hair, hats, and makeup. http://www.silent-movies.com/Ladies/Ladies.html 'Hope that helps! TC Carstensen aleed [15,598]CSuX:kostum-und waffenkunde Subject: H-COST: Kostum-und Waffenkunde From: aleed Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:03:54 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: aleed Hey there all, I just ordered a couple of Janet Arnold articles from Kostum-und-Waffenkunde through ILL. As there's very few places that actually have the magazine in this country, I thought I'd post the below info for anyone who is interested. Yours, Drea ---------- Forwarded message ---------- michelle h. neal [26,599]CSuX:document delivery service (fwd) Subject: Document Delivery Service (fwd) From: Michelle H. Neal Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:51:04 +0600 (EDT) Dear Drea Leed: Your inquiry was forwarded to me. I hope we can assist your research. Most of the following information will be of interest to the library where you place your request. Our library hold this periodical for the years 1959-1987. If the article you are seeking falls in these years, you may request a photocopy through your local public or academic library. The accession/verification number to include on the request is "OCLC 8392109." Copyright compliance must be stated on the request. The charge is $8.00 per article, and an invoice will accompany the photocopy. The request may be sent in the mail to the address below, or transmitted on the OCLC ILL System, with our symbol NOC entered at least twice in the lender string. Thank you, %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Michelle H. Neal, Interlibrary Services Librarian 224 Walter Royal Davis Library, CB# 3924 The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Chapel Hill, NC 27514-8890 USA 919 962-0077 FAX: 919 962-4451 michelle_neal@unc.edu hope h. dunlap [50,600]CSuX:flowering nettles Subject: Re: H-COST: Flowering Nettles From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:12:55 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Saw a 16th Century Japanese Ainu chief's garment in *Costumes of the East* last night made of "nettle cloth." The book is byWalter E. Fairservis, Jr., American Museum of Natural History, The Chatham Press, Riverside, CT, 1971, LC 77-159783. Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of seamstrix@juno.com -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Skunks and racoons and opossums, Oh my! And those jumping cholla really do seems to jump, says the Midwestern girl who had several encounters with jumping cholla that liked her a little too much! And our English friends don't seem to have the brightly colored birds that we have here (at least in Illinois) such as cardinals and blue jays. Of course we don't have magpies...... Karen On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:11:55 EDT Luiseach@aol.com writes: > >-Poster: Luiseach@aol.com >Lucinda >p.s. you're right, we don't have hedgehogs either, but then the UK >doesn't >have skunks and I had to explain them to a visiting cousin last year. _____ majordomo@indra.com melanie wilson [14,601]CSuX:nettles- Subject: H-COST: Nettles- From: Melanie Wilson Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:32:30 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson For those interested in Nettles etc you might like to join BookSpot where we are going to start talking about a book Plants & Archaeology, here is the opening message for the book, please join us http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/BookSpot --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------- So to start the discussion, please comment on your interests in this area ella lynoure rajamaki [20,602]CSuX:elizabethan linen. Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan linen. From: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:01:57 +2 -Poster: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" On 22 Jun 99, at 11:35, leif drews wrote: > In Denmark we have a very fine linen cloth, called in danish "kammerdug" > (chamber cloth) It is a very fine eaven linnen especially used to make fine lace > handkerchiefs with. I dont know the english name for it. > You can buy it at the danish embroiderers guild. Do they do mail order abroad (at least to other EU countries)? If you think they might, could you please send their contact information (at least the address)? -- -------(c) 1999--------------* lynoure@tuug.org * Ella Lynoure Rajamaki--------* http://www.tuug.org/~lynoure * j,k,s&a baird [22,603]CSuX:grid pattern paper Subject: H-COST: grid PATTERN PAPER From: "J,K,S&A Baird" Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 08:58:13 -0500 -Poster: "J,K,S&A Baird" you wrote:
>Clotilde ( http://www.clotilde.com ) has something similar, but I
>can't tell if it is actually paper or not. They refer to it as
>'swedish gridded paper' and 'Swedish Gridded Tracing/Drafting Paper',
>so I would call tehm or email them and ask. If it's the real stuff,
>get it form them if you can't find it your local shop, their prices
>look like a good deal.


I have the stuff from Clotilde and it works very well. It is paper. I use it for enlarging patterns from books.

For tracing off large patterns, I use the plain pattern paper that can be sewn. It's great to just baste the pattern pieces together to check the size, then take them apart again. Can't remember if I got it from Clotilde or Nancy's Notions (which has faster service and a great on-line catalog).

Kim
pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[22,604]CSuX:h cost: dye books Subject: H-COST: H COST: dye books From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:22:56 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> If you're interested in natural dyeing, particularly if you like to grow your own dyestuffs I'd say yes, you would definitely learn more by getting A Dyer's Garden. There's quite a bit on specific plants in it, where Weaver's Garden is a little more generalized on dye plants (lack of space and all that.) It is thin, but it also is only $9, and packed with excellent information and excellent color photographs. I suppose you'd say I'm biased; Rita and I have been friends for many years, but I know I'd recommend her work any way -- it's excellent! Deborah snspies@aol.com[8,605]CSuX:nettles- no sting after rain ! Subject: Re: H-COST: Nettles- no sting after rain ! From: SNSpies@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:29:52 EDT -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com << OK you were right, heavy rainfall today, no sting in the nettles, fascinating ! >> Cool! Experimental archaeology! Thanks for noticing this, Mel. penny ladnier [13,606]CSuX:austin powers 2 Subject: H-COST: Austin Powers 2 From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:37:37 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" Has anyone seen the New Austin Powers movie? I heard an interview with the designer and she was commenting on how hard it was for Felicity to get into the crocheted dress. I saw the film last night. The 60s costumes, makeup, and hair are wonderful!!! The crocheted dress is GREAT! I know many women from that time period who would have worn it. Later....Penny http://www.costumegallery.com sarah toney [39,607]CSuX:austin powers 2 Subject: Re: H-COST: Austin Powers 2 From: Sarah Toney Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 07:47:20 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney Great dress! Apparently, it took them an hour to get her into it because it was so small... (not that any of the men, including MINE, minded. *grin*) Heck, I know people who would wear that *now*. (granted, I hang with a strange crowd.) Sarah --- Penny Ladnier wrote: > > -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" > > > Has anyone seen the New Austin Powers movie? I > heard an interview with the > designer and she was commenting on how hard it was > for Felicity to get into > the crocheted dress. I saw the film last night. > The 60s costumes, makeup, > and hair are wonderful!!! The crocheted dress is > GREAT! I know many women > from that time period who would have worn it. > > Later....Penny > http://www.costumegallery.com > > > > majordomo@indra.com > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com hope h. dunlap [116,608]CSuX:1920s costume--help! Subject: H-COST: 1920s costume--help! From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:57:50 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Rather than trying to flatten yourself, try wearing a 3/4 length kimono cut overgarment in the style of the Fortuny, poirot and Gallenga coats. Fortuny and Gallenga exhibited these garments at the Decorative Arts Exposition in Paris in 1925 and a half dozen of them are presently on display at the Metropolitan museum of Art in New York Costume Institute. They were made out of lightweight silk and alternatively a supple velvet often printed with gold and silver designs. The neat thing about them is that they were often designed to be poufy in back so that it will flatter your natural curves. A kimono will do, 3/4 length of your skirt, left unbelted. If you want, cut the lower corner of the front opening into an arc a bit bigger than a dinner plate and gather the back hem to cinch it in just above your knees then run the kimono neck band continuously around the whole lower edge. Sometimes the kimono sleeves were gathered into a loose band just below the elbow. Some of the garments had a very wide shawl collar as as alternative, but they were still a wrap style left unbelted. This is very authentic to the period. The Typical patterning is shown on a Gallenga cape here: http://www.camrax.com/pages/birks14.htm#Gallenga A description of a longer sleeved garment by Gallenga follows:Opera cloak of brown silk velvet stencilled in antiqued silver in a custom design of possibly stylized foliage inspired by the patterns on early Mogul textiles. The coat has an enormous draped rectangular collar, large batwing sleeves, long flowing body taping slightly at the ankles. The stencilled pattern follows the join of the sleeves and crosses the top of the back. It is interesting to note that unlike Fortuny, Gallenga experimented with a range of construction patterns which were not necessarily minimal but did show the surface decoration to advantage. she was at the Wadsworth Atheneum and doing research on Gallenga for an exhibition. At that time she commented that she may have seen a photograph of Gallenga in it. Unfortunately I can't get the picture to open, but here's the front view of another apera cape showing how the woodblock printed gilt design plays across the front.http://www.camrax.com/cgi-bin/couture.old3.pl If you think of this on a kimono, then you're getting my drift here. Oh, bingo, here's one pictured at http://www.camrax.com/cgi-bin/couture.old3.pl It's from the 1930's but it's not that dissimilar to the ones from the 1920's. Evening ensemble consisting of a dress (delphos) of blue china silk pleated in Fortuny's lost technique and a coat - jacket of blue silk velvet stencilled in a custom designed motif inspired by islamic art. The sleeveless dress consists of mainly straight pleated panels which cling to the body. A minor adjustment was made by Fortuny under the arms to give the shoulders an extension to the top of the arms without creating additional bulk through the rib cage. In the later part of his career, he made slight modifications to his original design to accomodate clients. The dress is accompanied by a thick belt stencilled in an Islamic inspired floral motif. The jacket-coat has the flat two dimensional T shape construction inspired by ethnic costume. This shows the fabric pattern to advantage without interuption for seams. It is held closed by a silk cord at the neckline. It is rare to find matching ensembles. These pieces were made to be worn together. The differnece in the colours is probably the result of different fabrics receiving the dye differently. More here: http://www.camrax.com/cgi-bin/couture.old3.pl?ident=28156&Ch eckPicIndex=yes http://www.proust.com/fortuny.html Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of BustIeButt@aol.com -Poster: BustIeButt@aol.com Hi, I will be attending a dance event on Friday that requires 1920s dress. I know the "era" pretty well, but I have a few problems that I thought some people on this wonderful list might be able to help me with: ----First of all, how can I flatten my large rump without the aid of a period girdle? I was going to use Ace bandages or tape for the bosoms, but my I don't think this will work on my butt (the hips aren't the problem, by the way) ----Second, I have almost hip length curly hair and I'm not sure what to do with it for the event. I was thinking of sort of folding it under and pinning it under a cloche to resemble short hair, but this is kinda tacky. Any other advice on 1920s ladies dress would be appreciated! Thank you all in advance for your help!!!! Aja _____ majordomo@indra.com stitchwitch [42,609]CSuX:1920s costume--help! Subject: Re: H-COST: 1920s costume--help! From: "StitchWitch" Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 07:59:17 PDT -Poster: "StitchWitch" > ----First of all, how can I flatten my large rump without the aid of a period > girdle? I was going to use Ace bandages or tape for the bosoms, but my I > don't think this will work on my butt (the hips aren't the problem, by the > way) Not sure if you could actually flatten this part (I never could do so with mine!) but you might camouflage a bit. In my 20's evening gown, the back is loose enough that the cloth drapes straight down, which disguises my rump quite well. Another thought might be to add a small pad in the curve of your back, thus creating a straight line. > ----Second, I have almost hip length curly hair and I'm not sure what to do > with it for the event. I was thinking of sort of folding it under and > pinning it under a cloche to resemble short hair, but this is kinda tacky. My hair is of similar length, though not curly. What I did was twist it up tight on the top of my head, tied it within an inch of it's life, then added a rhinestone bracelet around the base. It looked very Erte. You might use gel in yours, to tame the curls a bit, or leave a few out, for effect. Good luck! Kate ---- StitchWitch Man is certainly stark mad: he cannot make a flea, yet he makes gods by the dozens. - Montaigne, Essays - 1588 Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ i. marc carlson [13,610]CSuX:moy bog dress Subject: H-COST: Moy Bog Dress From: "I. Marc Carlson" Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:13:32 -0500 -Poster: "I. Marc Carlson" For those of you who keep track of such things, there is a new version of the Moy Bog Dress page up at "Some clothing of the Middle Ages" ("http://www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/5923/cloth/bockhome.html"). It's still probably not absolutely perfect yet, but there's more their now then there used to be, thanks to Brian O'Donnell, Mary Cahill, and most especially to Kass McGann of Reconstructing History ("WWW.ReconstructingHistory.Com"), who has actually gotten to study the original. Marc Carlson merouda the true of bornover [27,611]CSuX:moy bog dress irish Subject: H-COST: Moy Bog Dress Irish From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:29:13 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/5923/cloth/moy.html Just had to add the *exact* web address. And for those who don't know, this dress is *IRISH*. Ain't it grand?! More than I knew we knew. thanks Marc! Cynthia > -Poster: "I. Marc Carlson" > > For those of you who keep track of such things, there is a new version > of the Moy Bog Dress page up at "Some clothing of the Middle Ages" > ("http://www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/5923/cloth/bockhome.html"). It's > still probably not absolutely perfect yet, but there's more their now then > there used to be, thanks to Brian O'Donnell, Mary Cahill, and most especially > to Kass McGann of Reconstructing History ("WWW.ReconstructingHistory.Com"), > who has actually gotten to study the original. -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir leif drews [43,612]CSuX:elizabethan linen. Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan linen. From: leif drews Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 20:45:27 +0200 -Poster: leif drews I am afraid that i dont have their adress at the moment. But i shall try and find it for you. Bjarne. Ella Lynoure Rajamaki skrev: > -Poster: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" > > On 22 Jun 99, at 11:35, leif drews wrote: > > > In Denmark we have a very fine linen cloth, called in danish "kammerdug" > > (chamber cloth) It is a very fine eaven linnen especially used to make fine lace > > handkerchiefs with. I dont know the english name for it. > > You can buy it at the danish embroiderers guild. > > Do they do mail order abroad (at least to other EU countries)? If you > think they might, could you please send their contact information (at > least the address)? > > -- > -------(c) 1999--------------* lynoure@tuug.org * > Ella Lynoure Rajamaki--------* http://www.tuug.org/~lynoure * -- Leif Drews Åboulevard 5, 3 th 1635 København V Bjarne Drews Åboulevard 5,3.th 1635 København V tlf. 35 37 13 70 sarah toney [13,613]CSuX:velvet? Subject: H-COST: Velvet? From: Sarah Toney Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 12:44:53 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney Did you all get the e-mail I forwarded yesterday about the Velvet distributor? I didn't get a copy, so I wasn't sure... someone let me know... Sarah Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com margo anderson [15,614]CSuX:1920s costume--help! Subject: Re: H-COST: 1920s costume--help! From: Margo Anderson Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 12:57:08 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson >----Second, I have almost hip length curly hair and I'm not sure what to do >with it for the event. I was thinking of sort of folding it under and >pinning it under a cloche to resemble short hair, but this is kinda tacky. Many ladies of the 20's, especially European ones, kept their hair long and wore it in buns or figure 8 twists at the back of the neck. they waved the fronts to look like the short hairstyles. Margo albertcat@aol.com[46,615]CSuX:need advice: enlarging 18c strapped stays Subject: Re: H-COST: Need advice: Enlarging 18c strapped stays From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:53:17 EDT -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 6/21/99 6:08:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kayherb@juno.com writes: << And what other things do I need to know and do? >> The way I was taught to do this [with an 18th century corset no less!] was: reference lines: 1) draw a straight line on all the pattern pieces parallel to the CF 2) draw 3 or 4 lines perpendicular [90º] to that lines to that across each piece, say one at the top, one in the middle & one near the bottom. Make them the same distance apart as needed to include the length pattern piece...we'll say 5". the new pattern: 1) On a sheet big enough draw a vertical line. 2) draw perpendicular lines to correspond with the ones you drew on the pattern pieces...In our example 5" apart. 3) Line up the lines on the pattern with the lines on the paper. Mark key points of the pattern on the paper...like the corner of CF & the neck line, the corner of the neck & shoulder seam (or where the strap attaches), the corner of the shoulder seam & the armseye....you'll have to determine what's key. 4) You can now change the measurements in these two directions To widen the pieces slide it along the horizontal lines...keep it in line...the extra width you need for one pattern piece. This shouldn't be too great an amount. 1" is about max but remember these add up when the pieces are put together. To change the length slide it up or down the vertical axis. Mark the same points. 5) Connect the dots using the original pattern & its points as a guide. The curve of the neck will be different as well as the slope of the shoulder....things that get missed up if you just add to the outside of the pattern. You can of course cut the existing pattern pieces up to distribute the extra more evenly. BTW...Jean Hunnisett has a pattern for an 18th corset with a 41" bust & a 32" waist in her book. My last bit of advice is to keep the CB pieces of the corset small...maybe not add as much as the rest. Have fun! kathryn l. herb [16,616]CSuX:got lotsa advice: enlarging 18c strapped stays Subject: H-COST: Got lotsa advice: Enlarging 18c strapped stays From: "Kathryn L. Herb" Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 19:08:27 EDT -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" I've gotten some really good advice on this! Now I have an awful urge to make more than one set of stays just to use every procedure!! One baghose leg done, one to go, then the stays!!! Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! Blowing kisses and sprinkling rose petals on all of you, Kay kayherb@juno.com Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. susan fatemi [19,617]CSuX:nettles and retting in water... Subject: H-COST: nettles and retting in water... From: Susan Fatemi Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 19:30:04 -0700 -Poster: Susan Fatemi If anyone is still interested in this topic, these books may be of interest: Dunsmore, Susi. Nepalese textiles. London : British Museum Press, c1993. Dunsmore, Susi. The nettle in Nepal : a cottage industry. Surbiton : Land Resources Development Centre,c1985. Susan Fatemi -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf piranhabb@aol.com[13,618]CSuX:an ideal husband- movie Subject: H-COST: An Ideal Husband- movie From: PiranhaBB@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:13:05 EDT -Poster: PiranhaBB@aol.com Mmmmm. I saw An Ideal Husband this afternoon and it was a wonderful movie, filled with yummy 1895 era costumes. Costumi Pirelli was the company credited with the costume construction. If you're interested in costumes of this era, run to see it. (Someone who knows the era better than I do, please let the list know if Minnie's red dresses- she wears 2- are period....) Also, it's witty and clever. Cheers, Lisa in LA holliday, rachel {disc~welwyn} [14,619]CSuX:surcoat Subject: H-COST: Surcoat From: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:07:14 +0200 -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Help! I have been asked if I would be able to make a surcoat for a friend as a bit of a rush job. They need it for the 30th June. There is just one problem I have no idea how you go about it. I usually do Elizabethan. Does anyone know of any instructions/patterns that are available in the UK? Or wouldn't mind talking me through it. Thank you in advance Rachel chantal pecourt [33,620]CSuX:grid pattern paper Subject: Re: H-COST: grid PATTERN PAPER From: Chantal Pecourt Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:08:48 -0400 -Poster: Chantal Pecourt Where on the site was this listed? I can't find it anywhere, even on search Thanks At 08:58 AM 6/22/99 -0500, you wrote: > > you wrote: > >Clotilde ( http://www.clotilde.com ) has something similar, but I > >can't tell if it is actually paper or not. They refer to it as > >'swedish gridded paper' and 'Swedish Gridded Tracing/Drafting Paper', > >so I would call tehm or email them and ask. If it's the real stuff, > >get it form them if you can't find it your local shop, their prices > >look like a good deal. > > > I have the stuff from Clotilde and it works very well. It is paper. I use it > for enlarging patterns from books. > > For tracing off large patterns, I use the plain pattern paper that can be > sewn. It's great to just baste the pattern pieces together to check the size, > then take them apart again. Can't remember if I got it from Clotilde or > Nancy's Notions (which has faster service and a great on-line catalog). > > Kim sarah toney [59,621]CSuX:great price on velvet!!!! Subject: H-COST: Great Price on Velvet!!!! From: Sarah Toney Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:08:59 -0600 (MDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney Okay, I'll try this one again, in case ya'll didn't get it... > I have been talking to this woman from e-bay who > sells > velvet there... this is the letter I just received > from her... enjoy! Share! Make beautiful things... > and send me pictures. ;-) Have fun... also, she > does > sell on e-bay under the name bunycraft, so you may > find some interesting stuff there... enjoy! > > sarah > > > > > >I am always looking for other places to sell my > > velvet! You can order from > > >me anytime! Bulk orders (over 5 yards) can be > had > > for $8.00 a yard. I > > have > > >Red, Hunter Green, Royal Blue, Navy Blue, White, > > Black. > > > > > >If you are in CA, I have to add 8.25% tax. > > > > > >Shipping on 5 yards or more is $5.00. Less than > 5 > > yards is $3.20. > > > > > >Let me know what you want. Share my name and > > address with all your > > friends! > > > > > >I can also get exotic velvets that are stamped in > > gold & other colors, with > > >sequins, etc. Prices are higher, of course, but > > they are so beautiful. > > > > > >Send a copy of this letter with your funds to > > protect the prices I have > > >quoted you! I get confused very easily. LOL > > > > > >Kay Cushing > > >4759 Lakewood Blvd. > > >Lakewood, CA 90712 > > > > > >(wish I had made my screen name Velvet > > Rabbit...LOL) Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com kate m bunting [14,622]CSuX:nettles Subject: H-COST: Re: Nettles From: "KATE M BUNTING" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:12:08 +0100 -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" I have been familiar with both red and white dead nettles since childhood. The red is a smaller, floppier plant than the white. The stinging nettle's flowers are insignificant dangling strands of greenish bits. I sometimes make nettle soup and, before I had a garden where I could grow spinach, occasionally cooked nettle tops as a vegetable. (You need to get them young, before the fibres develop.) Years ago I took a week's course on the uses of plants and was shown some yarn spun from nettle fibres. I remember it as fairly coarse and lumpy, but perhaps it hadn't been very expertly spun. Presumably the field retting involves the plants wilting and dying, which would disarm the stings (as does cooking, of course) Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby merouda the true of bornover [26,623]CSuX:velvet? Subject: Re: H-COST: Velvet? From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 08:36:38 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover I got it. Just wish I had some money! Cynthia Sarah Toney wrote: > -Poster: Sarah Toney > > Did you all get the e-mail I forwarded yesterday about > the Velvet distributor? I didn't get a copy, so I > wasn't sure... someone let me know... > > Sarah > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir holliday, rachel {disc~welwyn} [13,624]CSuX:h-needlework Subject: H-COST: h-needlework From: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:12:09 -0600 (MDT) -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Someone mentioned this mailing list a while back. Does anyone have any details on it i.e.: how to subscribe. Rachel sarah toney [19,625]CSuX:velvet? Subject: Re: H-COST: Velvet? From: Sarah Toney Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 08:42:56 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney > I got it. Just wish I had some money! Cynthia > It's an ongoing thing, so it's no rush... this is her business and as long as her wholesaler is in business, she will be able to get this stuff cheap. Personally, I'm taking my entire commission bonus from last month and buying 125 yards of it... selling these cloaks I'm making at $250-$300 a piece (which is about what people will pay for them around here), I could stand to make a good amount this summer. *YAY!* Sarah Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com sarah toney [19,626]CSuX:velvet? Subject: Re: H-COST: Velvet? From: Sarah Toney Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 08:42:56 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney > I got it. Just wish I had some money! Cynthia > It's an ongoing thing, so it's no rush... this is her business and as long as her wholesaler is in business, she will be able to get this stuff cheap. Personally, I'm taking my entire commission bonus from last month and buying 125 yards of it... selling these cloaks I'm making at $250-$300 a piece (which is about what people will pay for them around here), I could stand to make a good amount this summer. *YAY!* Sarah Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com christina nevin [17,627]CSuX:byee! Subject: H-COST: Byee! From: Christina Nevin Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:10:13 +0100 -Poster: Christina Nevin Work and silly-season organisation are getting a bit much, so I will be signing off for a couple of months. Talk to you all later! Cheers, Tina ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia | mka Tina Nevin Thamesreach Shire, The Isles, Drachenwald | London, UK thorngrove@geocities.com | http://www.geocities.com/~thorngrove "There is no doubt that great leaders prefer hard drinkers to good versifiers" - Aretino, 1536 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ rio@austin.rr.com (strangegirl)[29,628]CSuX:using the clotilde seach engine Subject: H-COST: Using the Clotilde Seach Engine From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:08:36 GMT -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Someone had expressed some difficulty in finding a recommended item at Clotilde. http://www.clotilde.com/search.htm The search function gives you the option of choosing how many days ago an item was added. Since our catalog is updated twice a year, it is best to use the 365 days option. Also, if you are searching for a particular product, such as "Extra Long Pleater ", but it is not found, search for "pleater", and then choose the item you are interested in from the choices you are given. margery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~There is no spoon~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ {*to reply take "spambegone" from my reply-to address*} j,k,s&a baird [66,629]CSuX:grid pattern paper Subject: Re: H-COST: grid PATTERN PAPER From: "J,K,S&A Baird" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:21:44 -0500 -Poster: "J,K,S&A Baird" Here is the URL for Nacy's Notions on line catalog: http://www.netmart.com/cgi-shop/storemaker-1.56.exe?id=930157410&action=menu This is the page for the Swedish tracing paper I like that is sewable: http://www.netmart.com/cgi-shop/storemaker-1.56.exe?id=930157410&item=stp10 &class=patternnotions This page has the Pellon Tru-Grid which is useful for enlarging patterns from small diagrams: http://www.netmart.com/cgi-shop/storemaker-1.56.exe?id=930157410&item=tgy45 &class=patternnotions No affiliation with Nancy's Notions. Clotilde has the Swedish tracing paper on this page: http://www.clotilde.com/store/showprod.cfm?&DID=16&CATID=29&ObjectGroup_ID= 146&OBS=30&Move=Next&Pcount=36&CurrentPage=5 Couldn't find the Pellon Tru-Grid in Clotilde. Kim At 10:08 AM 6/23/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: Chantal Pecourt > >Where on the site was this listed? I can't find it anywhere, even on search > >Thanks > > >At 08:58 AM 6/22/99 -0500, you wrote: >> >> you wrote: >> >Clotilde ( http://www.clotilde.com ) has something similar, but I >> >can't tell if it is actually paper or not. They refer to it as >> >'swedish gridded paper' and 'Swedish Gridded Tracing/Drafting Paper', >> >so I would call tehm or email them and ask. If it's the real stuff, >> >get it form them if you can't find it your local shop, their prices >> >look like a good deal. >> >> >> I have the stuff from Clotilde and it works very well. It is paper. I use it >> for enlarging patterns from books. >> >> For tracing off large patterns, I use the plain pattern paper that can be >> sewn. It's great to just baste the pattern pieces together to check the size, >> then take them apart again. Can't remember if I got it from Clotilde or >> Nancy's Notions (which has faster service and a great on-line catalog). >> >> Kim > > > > > saqueen@aol.com[27,630]CSuX:featured article Subject: H-COST: Featured Article From: SAQUEEN@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:55:34 EDT -Poster: SAQUEEN@aol.com Dear All, We have a new feature on our web site -- a featured article that further explores a topic centered around the pages in the Historic Fashions calendar. We put June's article up late, so it will stay up for a few more weeks. If you have been enjoying the Little Lord Fauntleroy outfit from the University of Rhode Island in the 1999 calendar, you can learn more on the web site, www.sallyqueenassociates.com in the featured article by Jo Paoletti. Bookmark the site for future articles -- next month will be an article by Cricket Bauer on Daughter of the Regiment. Also look for conservation, exhibition, and presentation questions at www.sallyqueenassociates.com/askmisty.htm where you can send in your questions for practical, reasonable approaches to costume and textiles. Of course, you will also find information about the past calendars (1998 and 1999) and Calendar 2000, Historic Fashions Turning the Centuries and the new notecards. Enjoy, Sally Queen www.sallyqueenassociates.com rio@austin.rr.com (strangegirl)[31,631]CSuX:grid pattern paper Subject: Re: H-COST: grid PATTERN PAPER From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:59:29 GMT -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) On Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:21:44 -0500, "J,K,S&A Baird" wrote: >This page has the Pellon Tru-Grid which is useful for enlarging patterns >from small diagrams: > >http://www.netmart.com/cgi-shop/storemaker-1.56.exe?id=930157410&item=tgy45 >&class=patternnotions This is it!!! This is the stuff I swear by! I love this for any pattern that will require draping, and because I always have it on hand, I use it for my corset pattern 'masters' and the final patterns. I have also used it (for one side, with light weight interfacing as the other side) as the fitting muslin for corsets. I love it. It's farless irritating than red dot tracer to me... I like it, because, unkile paper, if you draw and cut any part of the pattern too small, you can sew on an extension and re-fit. Also because it acts much more like fabric during a fitting. BTW, does anyone know if Pellon corp. has a website? Margery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~There is no spoon~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ {*to reply take "spambegone" from my reply-to address*} melanie wilson [8,632]CSuX:nettles Subject: H-COST: Nettles From: Melanie Wilson Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:22:31 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson I have traced a manufacturer of Nettle cordial in the UK ... hurray it is really good & keeps. Mel kevin & mara riley [39,633]CSuX:moy bog dress irish Subject: Re: H-COST: Moy Bog Dress Irish From: Kevin & Mara Riley Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:27:20 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: Kevin & Mara Riley Cool! Thanks, Marc, for your continuing efforts! Mara On Tue, 22 Jun 1999, Merouda the True of Bornover wrote: > > -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/5923/cloth/moy.html > > Just had to add the *exact* web address. And for those who don't know, this > dress is *IRISH*. Ain't it grand?! More than I knew we knew. thanks Marc! > Cynthia > > > -Poster: "I. Marc Carlson" > > > > For those of you who keep track of such things, there is a new version > > of the Moy Bog Dress page up at "Some clothing of the Middle Ages" > > ("http://www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/5923/cloth/bockhome.html"). It's > > still probably not absolutely perfect yet, but there's more their now then > > there used to be, thanks to Brian O'Donnell, Mary Cahill, and most especially > > to Kass McGann of Reconstructing History ("WWW.ReconstructingHistory.Com"), > > who has actually gotten to study the original. > > -- > Cynthia Long > Merouda the True of Bornover > Barony of Madrone > Kingdom of An Tir > > > robesof@aol.com[13,634]CSuX:library Subject: Re: H-COST: library From: RobesOf@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:53:04 EDT -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com Does anyone have an opinion on the reliability of "A History of Costume" by Carl Kohler, published by Dover? I'm trying to get a personal library started and have no intention on keeping any unreliable sources of information. Thanks, Erica susan carroll-clark [29,635]CSuX:library Subject: Re: H-COST: library From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:10:40 -0400 -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! >Does anyone have an opinion on the reliability of "A History of Costume" by >Carl Kohler, published by Dover? > >I'm trying to get a personal library started and have no intention on keeping >any unreliable sources of information. For which period? For my period (medieval), Kohler can be alternately useful and aggravating. Useful in that there are photographs/diagrams of a number of surviving garments. Aggravating in that the author's own theoretical reconstruction diagrams (some not very good at all, others acceptable) are mixed right in there with the diagrams of surviving garments, and it's sometimes difficult to tell which is which. The text for the medieval section generally just isn't very good and verges on downright terrible at times. I *think* it becomes a little more reliable for periods with more surviving garments--can anyone confirm or deny that? Susan Carroll-Clark merouda the true of bornover [20,636]CSuX:library Subject: Re: H-COST: library From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:06:22 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > I *think* it becomes a little more reliable for periods with more surviving > garments--can anyone confirm or deny that? I would have to agree. I do 14th century and with the exception of the extant linen shift (!!) photo I tend to disregard it completely. In fact, with Kohler I only pay attention to the photographs. Wish I could find another photo and some commentary for that shift. Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir rio@austin.rr.com (strangegirl)[38,637]CSuX:greenberg & hammer catalog Subject: H-COST: Greenberg & Hammer Catalog From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:41:17 GMT -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) The 1999 catalog is finally available. I got mine today. Comparable to Richard the Thread for costuming supplies, but a better selection of some things (probably due to difference of locale). If you want to order a catalog, the info is: Greenberg & Hammer 24 West 57th Street New York, NY 10019-3918 Mine cost me $1.00, but it's HUGE (just under 100pp) and has an index. Organized by category. They may have raised the catalog cost, but maybe not, as it was shipped by book post. I have not yet ordered from them, but I know others who have and they have nothing but wonderful things to say about this company. The people are nice (from my phone experience) and the prices look fairly reasonable, as well. THey offer bulk discounts which vary by item. They carry the Tru-Grid stuff as well, but it isn't referred to as tru-grid...it's listed in their catalog as "Pattern Cloth" at the bottom of page 37, for those like me who already have the new catalog. The description is right and they carry other Pellon corp products, so I would guess it is the same thing. It runs 2.0/yd up to 10 yards, 1.75/yd for a 10yd length, and 1.55/yd for a 25 yd roll. I'm going to order the 25 yd roll :D I've almost used up my stash. Margery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~There is no spoon~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ {*to reply take "spambegone" from my reply-to address*} rio@austin.rr.com (strangegirl)[17,638]CSuX:greenberg & hammer catalog Subject: Re: H-COST: Greenberg & Hammer Catalog From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:47:23 GMT -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:41:17 GMT, you wrote: >It runs 2.0/yd up to 10 yards, Or this *should* say "2.05/yd up to 10 yds" My apologies. Margery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~There is no spoon~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ {*to reply take "spambegone" from my reply-to address*} sue shatto [9,639]CSuX:miniature shoes Subject: H-COST: miniature shoes From: Sue Shatto Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:22:24 -0400 -Poster: Sue Shatto List, For those of you that like the hats and wanted better pics of the shoes;they are here! The url is http://www.VictorianMillinery.com/hats.html Take a look! arianne de dragonnid mka grace payne [97,640]CSuX:surcoat Subject: Re: H-COST: Surcoat From: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 01:24:48 -Poster: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" On Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:07:14 +0200, Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn} wrote: >I have been asked if I would be able to make a surcoat for a friend as a bit >of a rush job. They need it for the 30th June. There is just one problem I >have no idea how you go about it. I usually do Elizabethan. Does anyone >know of any instructions/patterns that are available in the UK? Or wouldn't >mind talking me through it. >Thank you in advance ```````````````````````````````````````````` My lady, If this is a lady's surcote of the late 13th to 14th centuries, I can help. First, get enough of a rich-looking fabric with a nice hand and weight to it (brocade is perfect), to reach the floor front and back when hanging from her shoulders, plus about ten inches total for hems and the fact that it should be a little longer than floor length, plus 2 to 3 feet for a nice train if desired, plus a little for shrinkage. If the fabric is narrow (closer to one meter wide than two, or closer to 45" than to 60" wide), you should probably double the amount of fabric I just told you and plan for a seam down the middle. If you had to put a seam down the middle, you need to either do that first or at least cut the fabric into two identical lengths and make sure you add your seam allowances for that seam to any future measurements. Fold the fabric (assume seam is sewn or not necessary) in half widthwise. Measure up from one end the distance you want to cut your friend's unhemmed gown to, plus whatever is necessary for a suitable bottom edge of fabric. The point you will come to is the high point of your friend's shoulders. Fold the fabric lengthwise at this point. Your fabric pile should now be four layers thick. If there will be a train, the two bottom layers (back) should be longer than the two top layers (front). Measure out from the point where the two fold lines cross along the top (the shorter fold) a distance equal to the distance from the most noticeable vertebrae in the back of her neck to the point of her shoulder, plus one inch. Mark this point. Measure down from that vertebrae to the level of the widest part of her hips (distance A). Record that measurement, then measure around this part of her hips. Quarter this measurement, then add 3 to 5 inches (total is distance B). The greater your friend's proportions in this area, the looser you will want to cut this. On your fabric, you want to measure down from the intersection of the two fold lines your distance A, then measure straight out from this measurement distance B. Mark distance B. Mark out your hem. If the gown won't have a train and is being made of 60" wide fabric, you will want to make the side about two inches shorter than the center. You will want the fabric to drag on the floor the exact same distance all around. If the gown will have a train, the sides will likely need to be cut to the same length as the center front. Draw a smooth curve for the hem of the train. In this case, you will want a smooth transition from the center front length around to the center back length. Even if this appears to be a very large hem for a gown, you want to bring the curve all the way out to the selvage edge. The fuller the skirts were, the better, as this was a sign of wealth. In fact, if you had more time I would suggest you add on to the sides to make the skirts even fuller. Now, take a long straightedge (yardstick, motorist, etc) and draw a line connecting the outermost point of the hem marking and the mark you made a distance B out from the center fold. You probably want to continue this line up five or six inches toward the bony part of the hip, in case you want to start the closed skirt of the gown a little higher (somewhere between the big hips and the bony hips is best). Measure your friend at this level and make sure you have enough fabric to go around her with a little ease, not forgetting your seam allowances. Draw a curve connecting the point at which you chose to close the skirt and the mark for your frined's shoulder points. The exact curve desired depends on what era you want to do. For an early surcote, it should practically be a straight line. As time passed, the curve went closer to the center line, especially on the front of the surcote. (For later surcotes, the back was cut noticeably wider than the front, which might be three or four inches across at the narrowest point.) In my opinion, a middle-of-the-road curve, going almost straight down from the shoulder mark to five or six inches above the beginning of the skirt and making a very round curve from there to the straight line has the best chances of suiting a body type. The neckhole should be rounded for an early surcote. If it's a 14th century surcote, the neckline should follow the neckline of the cotehardie worn under it as closely as possible, even if that gown has a low French neckline, which would make for very narrow pieces of fabric at the shoulders. If that's a problem, go with a round or only slightly oval neckline. Cut out your surcote. If you want to face the side openings with the same material you used for the gown, cut your facings out now. Your other choices are: 1) simply hem the openings, then decorate as desired with trim and/or metallic braid, and 2) face with (fake) fur. You may also want to face the neckhole, but I would suggest a small hand-stitched hem instead. Do whichever you choose to finish off the neckhole and side openings. Trim looks best if it is sewn on now, before the skirt is sewn closed, so the edges are invisible. Then sew the skirt closed and hem. You are now done, although you might want to sew a row of period-looking largish buttons down the center front of the surcote from the neck to at least the waist, and possibly all the way down. My instructions may not be completely accurate, as it is rather late and my mind's half asleep. If the directions are at all confusing to you, please ask me to explain further. In addition, I know there are other types of ladies' surcotes, like the Spanish ones and the ones where the skirt is pleated onto the body instead of being cut in one piece with it. But this type is what I do, and I find it preferable in appearance as well as ease of manufacture over the other two. Yours in the Dream, Arianne de Dragonnid Shire of Castlemere, Kingdom of Trimaris %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% "The founder of my noble line was wont to see Dragons. His Lady rode out from the forest in a gown of samite and was as young on the day he died as on their wedding day." %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% the rogue [27,641]CSuX:moy bog dress Subject: Re: H-COST: Moy Bog Dress From: "The Rogue" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:22:45 -0700 -Poster: "The Rogue" Fabulous! Your work is greatly appreciated!! Zelda MacAndrew -----Original Message----- From: I. Marc Carlson To: H-COSTUME@indra.com ; HISTORIAN@RECONSTRUCTINGHISTORY.COM > >-Poster: "I. Marc Carlson" > >For those of you who keep track of such things, there is a new version >of the Moy Bog Dress page up at "Some clothing of the Middle Ages" >("http://www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/5923/cloth/bockhome.html"). It's >still probably not absolutely perfect yet, but there's more their now then >there used to be, thanks to Brian O'Donnell, Mary Cahill, and most especially >to Kass McGann of Reconstructing History ("WWW.ReconstructingHistory.Com"), >who has actually gotten to study the original. > >Marc Carlson cat devereaux [24,642]CSuX:austin powers 2 Subject: H-COST: Re: Austin Powers 2 From: Cat Devereaux Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 02:11:02 -0400 -Poster: Cat Devereaux << The 60s costumes, makeup, and hair are wonderful!!! >> I loved the colors they use, but a lot of the outfits were about 5+ year older than their 1969. I was wearing a lot of what the extras were in late high school... but still lots of fun. << I heard an interview with the designer and she was commenting on how hard it was for Felicity to get into the crocheted dress...>> The other thing that made it so hard was the type of yarn that was used to make the dress. I remeber the dresses we wore were made out of a very thick springy yarn... the pink and orange dress is made out of a thinner yarn w/ metalic fiber... there's no streatch in it... and no fastening to get in and out. I got to handle the dress yesterday for just a bit... it is an amazing work of art. If you're really in love with the dress, it's going to be going up for auction (with some of the other costumes) sometime soon on New Line Cinema's web site: www.newline.com. -Cat- dietmar [47,643]CSuX:library Subject: H-COST: Re: library From: Dietmar Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 23:43:36 +0000 -Poster: Dietmar Greetings, I'm not sure who asked (sorry): >> Does anyone have an opinion on the reliability of "A History of >> Costume" by Carl Kohler, published by Dover? >> >> I'm trying to get a personal library started and have no intention >> on keeping any unreliable sources of information. Gee, then what will you keep? ;-) There are no perfect sources. The trick is to know (or make educated guesses at) what is reliable and what is not. Susan replied: > For which period? For my period (medieval), Kohler can be > alternately useful and aggravating. Useful in that there are > photographs/diagrams of a number of surviving garments. > Aggravating in that the author's own theoretical reconstruction > diagrams (some not very good at all, others acceptable) are > mixed right in there with the diagrams of surviving garments, > and it's sometimes difficult to tell which is which. The text > for the medieval section generally just isn't very good and > verges on downright terrible at times. > > I *think* it becomes a little more reliable for periods with > more surviving garments--can anyone confirm or deny that? I'm no expert, but I agree with this assessment. In some ways it's nice because he's German and covers more Germanic clothing (my chosen area of interest), but that's a double-edged sword because it's nigh impossible to verify some of his work. With most books, the work gets better as we get closer to modern times, and easier to verify. This is even true of the oft maligned Braun & Schneider. Their early medieval stuff is downright hideous, but some of their German renaissance looks pretty good. Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." christopher ballis [61,644]CSuX:costume-con20 ideas? Subject: H-COST: Costume-Con20 ideas? From: "Christopher Ballis" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:57:27 +1000 -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" Dear all, As some of you know, the Australian Costumers' Guild (read masochists) recently won the right to host Costume-Con 20 in Melbourne, Australia, in February, 2002. So now, the work begins. Our aim has always been the kind of Costume-Con that YOU would like to see. Already, we have plenty of events and activities planned but we do not feel we should proceed without ongoing input from costumers. So, whether you plan to attend or not, we are interested in your thoughts - to save clogging up the list, please E-mail your thoughts and suggestions direct to stilskin@netspace.net.au Apart from the traditional Costume-Con events, what sort of workshops, panels and other activities would you like to take part in? Do you have suggestions for unusual (and practical) events? Have you heard of anything in or around Melbourne that you think would make a good site visit or excursion? If you are planning to attend, would you like to host a panel, workshop or other activity? Are you willing to offer your services as a volunteer for part of the event and, if so, is there any area you have a special interest in, experience in, or desire to gain experience in? Do you have any other thoughts, suggestions or jaded barbs*? We are keen to make this a great Costume-Con and value any suggestion you want to make. *just kidding Costume-Con 20, Melbourne Convention and Exhibition Centre, Melbourne, Australia Friday 16-Monday 18 February, 2002 Christopher Ballis, Evil overlo-err-chairman, Costume-Con 20, C/- Australian Costumers' Guild, PO Box 322, Bentleigh, 3204 stilskin@netspace.net.au www.vicnet.net.au/~costume/ i. marc carlson [13,645]CSuX:moy bog dress irish Subject: Re: H-COST: Moy Bog Dress Irish From: "I. Marc Carlson" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 8:12:48 -0500 -Poster: "I. Marc Carlson" > >Cool! Thanks, Marc, for your continuing efforts! My pleasure. Really, I enjoy doing the research, and would prefer to make it available for people who may not have access to the sources. How does that quote go? "All it takes for the t-tunic to survive is for researchers to sit on their information?" or somesuch :) Marc Carlson melanie wilson [112,646]CSuX:books on ebay Subject: H-COST: Books on ebay From: Melanie Wilson Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:43:10 -0400 -Poster: Melanie Wilson LIQUID nourishment ed C Anne Wilson Vol 5 This covers portable foods & stimulating drinks. Chapters include :- Pottage & Soup as nourishing Liquids, Sherbets-a liquid diet, Brewing at Hickleton, Hypocras, Caudles, Possets & other Comforting drinks, Cider & perry in the 17th Century, Wassail! Celebrations in Hot Ale Water of life: Its beginnings and early history. A book originating in the Leeds Symposium on Food. Leading Food Historians share their insights. NEW HB. Buyer pays actually shipping costs. See my other Auctions for the other books in the series. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=122262764 Food East & West of the Peninnes ed C Anne Wilson Chapters on:- Traditional Food , Printing in the Pennines 1683-1920, Travellers Fare, Traditional foods of the Lake countries, Lancashire heritage, Yorkshire pudding, parkin, North Yorkshire recipe book. A book originating in the Leeds Symposium on Food. Leading Food Historians share their insights. NEW PB. Buyer pays actually shipping costs. See my other Auctions for the other books in the series. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=122263104 Food for the Community ed C Anne Wilson Special Diets for Special groups. Chapters include: The Measure of the Meat: Monastic Diet in Medieval England, Keeping Hospitality and Board Wages: Servants feeding arrangements from the Middle Ages to the 19th C, Navy Blues The Sailors diet 1530-1830, School Dinners: Style Louis XIV, Bastille Soup and Skilly-Workhouse soup in Yorkshire, Marching on their stomachs: The soldiers food in the 19th & 20th Centuries. A book originating in the Leeds Symposium on Food. Leading Food Historians share their insights.NEW HB. Buyer pays actually shipping costs. See my other Auctions for the other books in the series. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=122263391 Appetite & The Eye ed C Anne Wilson Vol 2 Chapters include: Ritual Form & colour in the Medieval Food Tradition, From Medieval great hall to country house dining room: the furniture and setting of the social meal, Decoration of the Tudor & Stuart table, Ideal meals and their menus from the Middle Ages to the Georgian Era. , Keeping up appearances: the Genteel art of dining in Middle class Victorian Britain. A book originating in the Leeds Symposium on Food. Leading Food Historians share their insights. NEW PB. Buyer pays actually shipping costs. See my other Auctions for the other books in the series. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=122263602 Anglo Saxon Pottery by David H Kennett Shire Archaeology publication , with extensive drawings of finds from Anglo Saxon digs, also lists sites of importance, museums with collections and further reading. This now largely out of print series is well worth collecting.VG paperback http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=122263850 Bond Men Made Free by Rodney Hilton An academic work on Medieval peasant movements and the English rising of 1381. A vital book for understanding the peasant/nobility relationships in many ways unique to England and different from mainland Europe G ex lib in cover http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=122264064 Footwear A Short history by Iris Brooke Traces footwear , mainly in England and American, from early times to the twentieth century. Includes mainly of Iris Brookes excellent line drawings and measurements for typical shoes from 13th century to 18th C. VG/VG ex lib hardcover in plastic cover. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=122264297 Life on The English Manor by H S Bennett This book gives a picture of daily life throughout the year of the Medieval peasant. Great explanations of the feudal system, rights, duties, privileges. It details the influence the seasons had on his life and the part religion played in everyday living. VG softcover with plastic protection. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=122264493 Mel lynnx@mc.net[21,647]CSuX:velvet seller$ Subject: H-COST: Velvet seller$ From: lynnx@mc.net Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:10:38 -0700 -Poster: lynnx@mc.net I didn't get it! (Or at least can't find it) - What is this good lady's contact info? Thanks, Heather > - -Poster: Sarah Toney > > I got it. Just wish I had some money! Cynthia > It's an ongoing thing, so it's no rush... this is her > business and as long as her wholesaler is in business, > she will be able to get this stuff cheap. Personally, > I'm taking my entire commission bonus from last month > and buying 125 yards of it... selling these cloaks I'm > making at $250-$300 a piece (which is about what > people will pay for them around here), I could stand > to make a good amount this summer. *YAY!* sarah toney [50,648]CSuX:velvet seller$ Subject: Re: H-COST: Velvet seller$ From: Sarah Toney Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 06:54:38 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney Okay... here goes... ;-) Her name is Kay Cushing. The address is 4759 Lakewood Blvd. Lakewood, CA 90712. her e-mail is bunycraft@aol.com . This is the rayon/nylon velvet, not velveteen. Oh, and if you live in CA, she has to charge sales tax. ;-( Sarah --- lynnx@mc.net wrote: > > -Poster: lynnx@mc.net > > I didn't get it! (Or at least can't find it) - What > is this good lady's > contact info? Thanks, > > Heather > > > - -Poster: Sarah Toney > > > > I got it. Just wish I had some money! Cynthia > > > It's an ongoing thing, so it's no rush... this is > her > > business and as long as her wholesaler is in > business, > > she will be able to get this stuff cheap. > Personally, > > I'm taking my entire commission bonus from last > month > > and buying 125 yards of it... selling these cloaks > I'm > > making at $250-$300 a piece (which is about what > > people will pay for them around here), I could > stand > > to make a good amount this summer. *YAY!* > > > majordomo@indra.com > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com cindy abel [21,649]CSuX:surcoat Subject: Re: H-COST: Surcoat From: "Cindy Abel" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:57:08 +0000 -Poster: "Cindy Abel" For a surcoat pattern just to have a reasonably accurate line, try the new Simplicity pattern 8725 for 14th c surcoat and gown. The pattern calls for about 9 yards of fabric for the surcoat, but it is a modern size and adjusted more quickly than pattern-making from scratch if pattern-making is not your thing. I bought a few of these new Simplicity costumes when they went on sale for 99 cents each so even if I don't use it to make a Christmas dress for myself right away, the guilt factor over spending the money for the pattern is low! What I would like to find out is where does one find the Conso trims used in these new historic Simplicity patterns? No one here in Omaha seems to carry them yet. I'd love to at least have a look at them--if nothing else, they might be good for some doll costuming. I'm thinking about next year's RenFaire here and need something to do this winter when cold weather forces me to stay at home a lot more whether crafting for self or for a doll. sarah toney [32,650]CSuX:surcoat Subject: Re: H-COST: Surcoat From: Sarah Toney Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:12:07 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney Good day! > away, the guilt factor over spending the money for > the pattern is > low! Tee-hee... I bought eleven patterns at the 99 cent sale last week to base costumes off of. Of course, now I have to get the material for them. ;-) > > What I would like to find out is where does one find > the Conso trims You may want to try www.calontirtrim.com. They have TONS of trims... they may have what you are looking for. Warning though, you have to look through the trims... and if you have a really slow computer, it may take a while for the pictures to load... they have a picture of every trim... but I have been happy with the selection. Sarah Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com penny ladnier [11,651]CSuX:austin powers again Subject: H-COST: Austin Powers again From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:11:12 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" You can read the production notes on Austin Powers 2 at http://www.austinpowers.com/AUSTIN/APINDEX.HTML Here you will see some of the notes from the costume designer and the set designer. Later...Penny http://www.costumegallery.com katy bishop [13,652]CSuX:vintage clothing in new jersey Subject: H-COST: vintage clothing in new jersey From: Katy Bishop Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:12:14 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: Katy Bishop I need information for a couple who are coming to Vintage Dance Week for the first time and need to put together a vintage wardrobe, they live in the Princeton New Jersey area. Can anyone give recommendations of purveyors of vintage or reproduction clothing in New jersey? Thanks. Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@shore.net Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. margo anderson [21,653]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: H-COST: H-Cost: The Pattern BIz From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:18:50 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson I'm thinking of going into the pattern business. I'm envisioning a high end product, similar to La Mode Bagatelle's quality and scope, but in a very different period (all I want to say just yet). I'm a fairly good pattern maker and can write the documentation and instructions, but I'm daunted by tow things. One is grading the pattern into a range of sizes, and the other is doing the technica construction drawings that I want in the instructions. Are there people who offer these services? Has anyone on the list used them? If anyone has had experience in making patterns for sale, I'd love to hear from you. I won't ask you to keep it off list, because I suspect a number of others here would be interested also. Margo Anderson margo anderson [9,654]CSuX:velvet seller$ Subject: Re: H-COST: Velvet seller$ From: Margo Anderson Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:10:50 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson Is this the nasty, shiny, poly/rayon/nylon/acetate or whatever velvet, or is it the nice lush cotton velvet? Margo stitchwitch [40,655]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Cost: The Pattern BIz From: "StitchWitch" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:35:23 PDT -Poster: "StitchWitch" > I'm thinking of going into the pattern business. I'm envisioning a high end > product, similar to La Mode Bagatelle's quality and scope, but in a very > different period (all I want to say just yet). Huzzah! As a happy purchaser of both the Bagatelle's patterns, I can but look forward to more entrants into the field. > > I'm a fairly good pattern maker and can write the documentation and > instructions, but I'm daunted by tow things. One is grading the pattern > into a range of sizes, and the other is doing the technica construction > drawings that I want in the instructions. > > Are there people who offer these services? Has anyone on the list used them? A woman I know is using her experience with a CAD type machine to do some drafting of patterns from a very old book (it is of post-copyright age, as I recall). I could send your note on to her, if you like, and see if she has any advice for you. Best of luck, and please keep us posted! Kate ---- StitchWitch Man is certainly stark mad: he cannot make a flea, yet he makes gods by the dozens. - Montaigne, Essays - 1588 Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ robesof@aol.com[32,656]CSuX:surcoat Subject: Re: H-COST: Surcoat From: RobesOf@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:53:34 EDT -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com In a message dated 6/24/99 10:10:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarah_and_pooh@yahoo.com writes: << > What I would like to find out is where does one find > the Conso trims >> You can check out Conso's website for a wholesale catalog (minimum order is $100). Conso International (www.conso.com) Or here is a list of retailers that carry their products: JoAnn Fabrics Hancock Fabrics Hobby Lobby International Calico Corners We-R-Fabrics Fabric Bonanza Fabric Place I purchased Conso's wholesale catalog for $8. Even if you can't buy wholesale at their minimum, it a full-color 229 page book of all they carry for 1999. I take it to my local fabric store to aid in my search for a particular trim and sometimes ask the salesperson to order things for me. Unfortunately, their catalog is not online. Good luck! Erica lavolta press [64,657]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Cost: The Pattern BIz From: Lavolta Press Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:59:50 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press Margo Anderson wrote: > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > I'm thinking of going into the pattern business. I'm envisioning a high end > product, similar to La Mode Bagatelle's quality and scope, but in a very > different period (all I want to say just yet). > > I'm a fairly good pattern maker and can write the documentation and > instructions, but I'm daunted by tow things. One is grading the pattern > into a range of sizes, and the other is doing the technica construction > drawings that I want in the instructions. > > Are there people who offer these services? Has anyone on the list used them? > > If anyone has had experience in making patterns for sale, I'd love to hear > from you. I won't ask you to keep it off list, because I suspect a number > of others here would be interested also. > > Margo Anderson > I have looked into this some, though not a lot. A friend recently told me about this software site: http://www.wild-ginger.com/ I know nothing about this company except from browsing their site. However, they do sell most of the essential ingredients for computerized pattern making: * A digitizer to enter the paper patterns into your computer as vector graphics * Pattern-making software * A plotter to print full-size patterns You need software to enter the paper patterns with your digitizer (in addition to the driver that enables the digitizer to talk to your computer). I only glanced at this site last night, so am not sure if their pattern-making software will do that or not. If not, you probably need to buy AutoCAD--this is the CAD program a lot of pattern-making software is based on. There are services that do freelance grading, etc. for the garment industry. If you use one of them you may also need an Iomega zip drive to transfer files back and forth. It depends on how big the vector graphics files are and how many you transfer. Hope this helps, Fran Grimble --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm gail decamp [29,658]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: H-COST: The pattern biz From: Gail DeCamp Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 11:04:50 -0700 -Poster: Gail DeCamp Hi Margo and everybody, I have just one heartfelt plea: PLEASE DO USER TESTING. That is, make up your pattern and the instructions for it, then give it to some novice sewers... and some relatively experienced sewers... to try out your instructions. Watch them do it, and take notes on where they get confused or what they do wrong. Then revise your pattern to account for areas of confusion. Just my 0.02... Good luck! Gail DeCamp >If anyone has had experience in making patterns for sale, I'd love to hear >from you. I won't ask you to keep it off list, because I suspect a number >of others here would be interested also. > >Margo Anderson sarah toney [30,659]CSuX:velvet seller$ Subject: Re: H-COST: Velvet seller$ From: Sarah Toney Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:24:02 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney I think this is the nice soft stuff. Most of the shiny stuff I have seen has also been stretch... this isn't... if you'd like, send me your address, and when I get my order (it won't be for a few weeks yet) I'll send you a small sample. Sarah --- Margo Anderson wrote: > > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > Is this the nasty, shiny, poly/rayon/nylon/acetate > or whatever velvet, or > is it the nice lush cotton velvet? > > Margo > > > > majordomo@indra.com > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com david w. rickman [18,660]CSuX:ivanhoe and rowena Subject: H-COST: Ivanhoe and Rowena From: "David W. Rickman" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 13:47:35 EDT -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, Perhaps this is not the proper place to do this, but I cannot think of a better. A friend of mine, a museum curator in Dover, Delaware, is looking for two people to portray Ivanhoe and Rowena for an event this August. It is the opening of a show of original illustrations to the book created by Frank Schoonover, one of the Brandywine School of Howard Pyle (including N.C. Wyeth, Maxfield Parrish, etc). It will not be a large event, but it does pay something. I don't know much more but, if anyone is interested, and feel they have the proper look and outfit (let's be honest here), I'd be happy to put them in touch with my friend. Please contact me off line at drickman@state.de.us. Thanks. David Rickman robesof@aol.com[104,661]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Cost: The Pattern BIz From: RobesOf@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:26:15 EDT -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com In a message dated 6/24/99 1:22:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, margo@directcon.net writes: << I'm thinking of going into the pattern business. I'm envisioning a high end product, similar to La Mode Bagatelle's quality and scope, but in a very different period (all I want to say just yet). Best of luck!! I'm a fairly good pattern maker and can write the documentation and instructions, but I'm daunted by tow things. One is grading the pattern into a range of sizes, and the other is doing the technica construction drawings that I want in the instructions. Are there people who offer these services? Has anyone on the list used them? Most definitely. I have no personal experience with any of these companies, but check them out and let the rest of us know what you think. I do not know if these companies work with smaller businesses or not either, but its a start. They may refer you to design studios catering to smaller businesses (sorry, I am just assuming you are beginnning this on a small scale). ASSYST, INC. 5000 Aerial Center Parkway, Suite #200 Morrisville, NC 27560 Thomas Baur/Linda Johnson 919 467 2211 - Fax: 919 467 2297 - E-mail - thomas.baur@assyst-intl.com CAD systems for the apparel market. Design, production, marking, grading and sketching systems available. LECTRA SYSTEMS, INC. 844 Livingston Court, Marietta, GA 30067 Paul Tyson 770 422 8050 - Fax: 770 422 1503 - E-mail - marketing.usa@lectra.com World leading supplier of CAD/CAM systems to the apparel industry. Programs for design, production, marking, grading, sketching, pattern making, weaving, knitting, cutting & more. Work with all markets, plus home & upholstery. TUKATECH, INC. 5527 East Slauson Avenue, Los ANgeles, CA 90040 Ram Sareen 213 726 3836 - Fax: 213 726 3866 - E-mail - tukatech@earthlink.net Hottest CAD company featuring systems for apparel design, production, cutting, weaving, knitting, marking, grading, sketching, pattermaking, printing & more. Supply hardware & software. Plus CAD systems for realted markets. GERBER GARMENT TECHNOLOGY, INC. 24 Industrial Park Road West, P.O. Box 769 Tolland, CT 06084 Bud Staples 860 871 8082 - Fax: Publication Only N.Y.# 212-868-7795. Extensive line of computer-aided pre-production systems for design, merchandising, product development, grading & marking, spreading, cutting & assembly. Established 1968. Offices worldwide. PAD SYSTEM USA 110 East Ninth Street, Suite #C601 Los Angeles, CA 90079 Kristin Glouick 213 688 7731 - Fax: Publication Only - E-mail - padusa@padsystems.com Pattern Aided Design System. Macintosh based systems for marking, grading & patternmaking for the apparel industry. Discover speed & precision. PAD SYSTEMS TECHNOLOGIES 2100 Sainte-Catherine St. West, Suite #720 Montreal, Canada, H3H2T3 Marc St. Georges 514 939 4430 - Fax: Publication Only - E-mail - padinfo@padsystems.com Pattern Aided Design System. MacIntosh software for the garment industry. Pattern design, grading & marking programs. Discover speed & precision. Also, one of my books mentions a contact for a grading ruler (so you can do it yourself with out the expense of CAD, plotters, etc.) The copyright of my source is 1995. Eleanor Davis 1128 Lafayette Street San Gabriel, CA 91776 If anyone has had experience in making patterns for sale, I'd love to hear from you. I won't ask you to keep it off list, because I suspect a number of others here would be interested also. I hope others can benefit from this information. If these companies were over-priced, etc., let me know as I may have other sources of information that can be rescued from my ever-growing pile on the office floor ;-) Once again, best of luck!! Erica robesof@aol.com[19,662]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Cost: The Pattern BIz From: RobesOf@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:29:21 EDT -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com In a message dated 6/24/99 2:03:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lavolta@best.com writes: << I have looked into this some, though not a lot. A friend recently told me about this software site: http://www.wild-ginger.com/ >> I saw this as well. The program looks like it might be good and you can get a free demo. Their prices are quite high though. Has anyone bought this program. If so, how would you rate it? Thanks, Erica diana h [51,663]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Cost: The Pattern BIz From: Diana H Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:28:01 -0700 -Poster: Diana H Margo Anderson wrote: > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > I'm thinking of going into the pattern business. I'm envisioning a > high end > product, similar to La Mode Bagatelle's quality and scope, but in a > very > different period (all I want to say just yet). > > I'm a fairly good pattern maker and can write the documentation and > instructions, but I'm daunted by tow things. One is grading the > pattern > into a range of sizes, and the other is doing the technica > construction > drawings that I want in the instructions. > > Are there people who offer these services? Has anyone on the list > used them? > > If anyone has had experience in making patterns for sale, I'd love to > hear > from you. I won't ask you to keep it off list, because I suspect a > number > of others here would be interested also. Hey Margo, If you can't find someone with experience doing this, you might just want to pick some people you know who are of different sizes and just fit the patterns like that. I realize this will take more time but you might even get a better fit (as many of us have lamented how patterns don't size up or down well due to the fact that they were extrapolated from a single size). Oh, and of course I would be happy to volunteer ;~> Diana :~> -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" diana h [43,664]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: The pattern biz From: Diana H Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:33:13 -0700 -Poster: Diana H Gail DeCamp wrote: > -Poster: Gail DeCamp > > Hi Margo and everybody, > > I have just one heartfelt plea: PLEASE DO USER TESTING. > > That is, make up your pattern and the instructions for it, then give > it > to some novice sewers... and some relatively experienced sewers... > to try out your instructions. Watch them do it, and take notes on > where > they get confused or what they do wrong. Then revise your pattern > to account for areas of confusion. > > Just my 0.02... Good luck! > > Gail DeCamp Huzzah!! As a relatively advanced sewer, I recently made the Victorian corset from Past Patterns and if I weren't as good of a seamstress as I am, I don't think I would have been able to do it. In some places the directions were VERY vague. Good call Gail! Diana :~> -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" grm files [23,665]CSuX:vintage clothing in new jersey Subject: RE: H-COST: vintage clothing in new jersey From: "GRM Files" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:25:02 -0400 -Poster: "GRM Files" Princeton, NJ is halfway between Philadelphia and New York, with public transportation to both. Well, a tad closer to Philadelphia--if there's no heavy traffic, it's about 45 minutes by car from Princeton to Phila., while NY is about I am certain there are good sources in both cities if not in closer places (including Bucks County PA as well as central New Jersey). There are places in New Brunswick (I think Aaron Aardvark was one) that sometimes include vintage clothing among the stock, and probably lots of antique-y/rummage-y places in the general area where some piece of vintage might turn up. But that's not going to be helpful for short-term needs. There are a number of regional theatres in this area, which means costumers who could create vintage reproductions if time/money permit (McCarter Theatre in Princeton, George Street Playhouse and Crossroads in New Brunswick)--and the Rutgers folks have an active costume shop year round, I believe, with costume students who also would be able to execute such a commission. hope h. dunlap [12,666]CSuX:pellote diagrams on-line Subject: H-COST: Pellote Diagrams On-Line From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:12:12 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" If you go to I. Marc Carlson's site, Some Clothing of the Middle Ages, you can see diagrams of four surviving pellote: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/5923/cloth/tunics. html They are the last four items at the bottom the list. Hope H. Dunlap hope h. dunlap [43,667]CSuX:moy bog dress Subject: H-COST: Moy Bog Dress From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:16:03 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Marc, Could you explain where the fabric grain lines are on the various gussets? I presume that the straight of the grain runs from shoulder to wrist down the top of the sleeve. Is that right? Do you have a layout showing how this might be cut out a piece of fabric? Any waste, or is it all used? Thanks, Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of I. Marc Carlson -Poster: "I. Marc Carlson" For those of you who keep track of such things, there is a new version of the Moy Bog Dress page up at "Some clothing of the Middle Ages" ("http://www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/5923/cloth/bockh ome.html"). It's still probably not absolutely perfect yet, but there's more their now then there used to be, thanks to Brian O'Donnell, Mary Cahill, and most especially to Kass McGann of Reconstructing History ("WWW.ReconstructingHistory.Com"), who has actually gotten to study the original. Marc Carlson _____ majordomo@indra.com henk t jong [42,668]CSuX:library Subject: Re: H-COST: library From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:43:17 +0200 -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi list, Erica wrote: > >Does anyone have an opinion on the reliability of "A History of Costume" by > >Carl Kohler, published by Dover? > > > >I'm trying to get a personal library started and have no intention on > keeping > >any unreliable sources of information. > About 25 years ago I started my sewing career by trying to make the pourpoint of 1400 on page 167, fig. 196. It didn't fit! I made some intuitive changes (it was the second sewing project of my life; so what did I know?) and it was more or less wearable. I develloped a healthy scepticism after that and especially the middle ages part was full of mistakes and nonsence. Of the later parts I don't know enough to be sure. > > For which period? For my period (medieval), Kohler can be alternately > useful and aggravating. Useful in that there are photographs/diagrams of a > number of surviving garments. Aggravating in that the author's own > theoretical reconstruction diagrams (some not very good at all, others > acceptable) are mixed right in there with the diagrams of surviving > garments, and it's sometimes difficult to tell which is which. The text for > the medieval section generally just isn't very good and verges on downright > terrible at times. > Hear, hear! Henk kwhykelly@aol.com[13,669]CSuX:houpilande pattern or good source Subject: H-COST: houpilande pattern or good source From: Kwhykelly@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:36:39 EDT -Poster: Kwhykelly@aol.com Hi, I am looking for a pattern or good instructions on how to make a houpelande. Also, can I use linen or is this a wool only sort of clothing? Thanks Kristi Kelly firefly [47,670]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Cost: The Pattern BIz From: " Firefly" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:16:41 -0700 -Poster: " Firefly" Dear Margo, While I am in no way a pattern drafter nor a sewing professional, but I do know three people who draft commercial costume patterns, heard their war stories, and I know it is a complicated task. I believe schools like FIT offer whole concentrations in this area--so in certain levels, the standards are quite high. Part of the problem many drafters have is overcoming their own personal figure flaws and coming up with a pattern that suits the commercially standard figure. Also, there are industry conventions for the illustration of instructions and the breakdown of certain common sewing tasks. In the garment industry, it is common practice to have patterns (including those made strictly for ready-to-wear) validated by standards organizations for compliance with industry specifications (not to be confused with verifying your pattern by using test sewers). As far as I know, Costume Connection is the only company in the costume pattern business that does this level of verification, so it may not be truly required if you are just going to make costume patterns (since it isn't a common costume pattern practice). Still, bear in mind that a general sewer (or should I say consumer) will expect the kind of quality seen in Vogue, McCalls, Butterick, et al--especially if you charge a premium price. So, the standards testing may be neccessary if you want to ensure consumer satisfaction (think of the business prospects if an unfavorable review got posted on GBACG's website). There are consultants who can run you through the process, but of course, this costs money. I would suggest contacting FIT or another school catering to the garment industry for further advice. Good luck! I hope you can translate your ideas into an innovative and profitable enterprise! --- Visit my homepage: http://pages.hotbot.com/travel/fire.fly On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:18:50 Margo Anderson wrote: > >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >I'm thinking of going into the pattern business. I'm envisioning a high end >product, similar to La Mode Bagatelle's quality and scope, but in a very >different period (all I want to say just yet). > >I'm a fairly good pattern maker and can write the documentation and >instructions, but I'm daunted by tow things. One is grading the pattern >into a range of sizes, and the other is doing the technica construction >drawings that I want in the instructions. > > Are there people who offer these services? Has anyone on the list used them? > >If anyone has had experience in making patterns for sale, I'd love to hear >from you. I won't ask you to keep it off list, because I suspect a number >of others here would be interested also. > >Margo Anderson > > HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com fopdejour1@aol.com[13,671]CSuX:houpilande pattern or good source Subject: Re: H-COST: houpilande pattern or good source From: Fopdejour1@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:17:46 EDT -Poster: Fopdejour1@aol.com Kristi, Here is a link for Houpelandes. I'm pretty sure it will answer most of your questions. I tend to use heavier fabrics for houpelandes, as it drapes better. http://www.pipcom.com/~tempus/houpelande.html Charles. margo king [7,672]CSuX:vintage clothing in new jersey Subject: Re: H-COST: vintage clothing in new jersey From: margo king Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 17:25:05 -0000 -Poster: margo king Katy - What is Vintage Dance Week and When - Also do you have a catalogue of your Victorian Reproductions?? Margo King megan mchugh [31,673]CSuX:velvet? Subject: Re: H-COST: Velvet? From: "Megan McHugh" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 18:08:52 -0400 -Poster: "Megan McHugh" My only question about the velvet is, is it cotton velvet? If not, what is it? -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Toney To: h-costume@indra.com ; h-costume@indra.com > >-Poster: Sarah Toney > >> I got it. Just wish I had some money! Cynthia >> > >It's an ongoing thing, so it's no rush... this is her >business and as long as her wholesaler is in business, >she will be able to get this stuff cheap. Personally, >I'm taking my entire commission bonus from last month >and buying 125 yards of it... selling these cloaks I'm >making at $250-$300 a piece (which is about what >people will pay for them around here), I could stand >to make a good amount this summer. *YAY!* > >Sarah >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > hope h. dunlap [52,674]CSuX:ivanhoe and rowena Subject: H-COST: Ivanhoe and Rowena From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:37:22 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Well, to get in the mood, the BBC's 300-minute film of Ivanhoe released in 1997 is showing on Arts & Entertainment network Saturday July 3 at 8 pm to midnight and Sunday July 4 midnight to 4 am: Sir Walter Scott's classic tale of romance and adventure set in the Middle Ages. After release from an Austrian prison in 1192, the crusader Ivanhoe returns to England disguised as a pilgrim. The usurper Prince John learns that his brother King Richard was also released. Starring Steven Waddington and Ciaran Hinds. (1997) -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of David W. Rickman -Poster: "David W. Rickman" Hello, Perhaps this is not the proper place to do this, but I cannot think of a better. A friend of mine, a museum curator in Dover, Delaware, is looking for two people to portray Ivanhoe and Rowena for an event this August. It is the opening of a show of original illustrations to the book created by Frank Schoonover, one of the Brandywine School of Howard Pyle (including N.C. Wyeth, Maxfield Parrish, etc). It will not be a large event, but it does pay something. I don't know much more but, if anyone is interested, and feel they have the proper look and outfit (let's be honest here), I'd be happy to put them in touch with my friend. Please contact me off line at drickman@state.de.us. Thanks. David Rickman _____ majordomo@indra.com arianne de dragonnid mka grace payne [20,675]CSuX:surcoat Subject: Re: H-COST: Surcoat From: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 23:41:54 -Poster: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" Good Gentles In my message last night on making surcotes, I apparently let my spellcheck "correct" a word that wasn't misspelled: >Now, take a long straightedge (yardstick, motorist, etc) and draw a line connecting... Believe it or not, I meant "meter-stick", not "motorist"! Clearing this up, in case someone as tired as I was read my last post and wondered what a motorist had to do with this or what handy-dandy sewing tool was called a motorist! Yours, Arianne pierre & sandy pettinger [14,676]CSuX:conso trim Subject: H-COST: Re: Conso trim From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 00:08:53 -0500 -Poster: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger >From: "Cindy Abel" >What I would like to find out is where does one find the Conso trims >used in these new historic Simplicity patterns? No one here in Omaha >seems to carry them yet. As another poster indicated, both Joann's and Hancock's carry them. They are upholstery trims - look in the home dec area. Sandy dietmar [57,677]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: Dietmar Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 00:24:19 +0000 -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, Margo wrote: >> One is grading the pattern into a range of sizes, and the other >> is doing the technica construction drawings that I want in the >> instructions. >> >> Are there people who offer these services? Has anyone on the >> list used them? It may sound like a strange suggestion, but try looking at the local junior college. They might just offer some clothing and textile classes. If so, you might be able to take the classes necessary to learn this. Even if they don't teach the patterning, you may be able to find a draftsman or artist who can do the technical drawings. Paying a student might be a good cheap alternative. Fran replied: > I know nothing about this company except from browsing their site. > However, they do sell most of the essential ingredients for > computerized pattern making: > > * A digitizer to enter the paper patterns into your computer > as vector graphics > > * Pattern-making software > > * A plotter to print full-size patterns > > You need software to enter the paper patterns with your digitizer > (in addition to the driver that enables the digitizer to talk to > your computer). I only glanced at this site last night, so am > not sure if their pattern-making software will do that or not. > If not, you probably need to buy AutoCAD--this is the CAD program > a lot of pattern-making software is based on. You can certainly do all of this, but it would be extremely expensive and will take years of study to use. I've been a professional draftsman for a number of years, and I can tell you that the equipment will run into the thousands of dollars. AutoCAD alone will be $2000-$4000 and a full-size digitizer, plotter, etc. will be about the same. You might be able to offset some of these costs by having a blueprint company do the conversion and plotting for you. See what service are available to you and weigh the costs in time and money before you make any decisions. Good luck, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." lawrence kincaid [69,678]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Cost: The Pattern BIz From: Lawrence Kincaid Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 02:31:44 -0700 -Poster: Lawrence Kincaid It must be in the air since just last wednesday 6/16 I posted Fran about getting a digitizing tablet large enough to scan 25 years of N CA Renn Faire patterns and about that much mid 19th century Dickens Fair patterns Then it would make it easy to design variations on these patterns well friday 18 june I started a web search went to the Wild-Ginger web site then later I post Eastman Machine Co(I came to this thru the yahoo search) about getting a 36X48 Digitizing tablet or table I had already lost interest in the Gerber site since it seemed expensive they don't show the prices of the systems; and then later I heard that the entry level system is $25,000. The Gerber site dosent list the parts seperately. Well Roy stevenson of the Eastman Machine Co. sell the components seperately. So that the 36X48 digitizer tablet is $2050. and the 36" plotter is $4500. These are Numonics Corp machines. Well then I linked out to their web site and from there I end up at Infology e-mail sales@infology.com. so they list the prices of the GTCO/CalComp and WACOM Digitizers and they list three large size digitizing tablets the 36X48 being the middle size. the minimum for digitizing large pattern parts. SUMMAGRID V 36X48 $1806. Also the Gridmaster flexible digitizing mats at only $949. for 20X24 the largest and weights only 12 oz. but this is'nt really large enough. One would then pay to have a marker ploteded out or print out pieces 8 1/2X11 and assemble. Using a simple cad drawing program is what I am thinking of putting the pattern parts into. The professional software programs that these systems use expensive probably take some time learning. More later; In 1982 I saw the Gunne Sax marker making procedure from when the pattern parts come from the designers made of stiff pattern paper these parts were digitized then manipulated in a application that arrange the parts to make the most efficient layout for the marker. They were able to grade with this Gerber software before the arrangeing process. regards Larry Kincaid StitchWitch wrote: > -Poster: "StitchWitch" > > > I'm thinking of going into the pattern business. I'm envisioning a high > end > > product, similar to La Mode Bagatelle's quality and scope, but in a very > > different period (all I want to say just yet). > > Huzzah! As a happy purchaser of both the Bagatelle's patterns, I can but > look forward to more entrants into the field. > > > > > I'm a fairly good pattern maker and can write the documentation and > > instructions, but I'm daunted by tow things. One is grading the pattern > > into a range of sizes, and the other is doing the technica construction > > drawings that I want in the instructions. > > > > Are there people who offer these services? Has anyone on the list used > them? > > A woman I know is using her experience with a CAD type machine to do some > drafting of patterns from a very old book (it is of post-copyright age, as I > recall). I could send your note on to her, if you like, and see if she has > any advice for you. > > Best of luck, and please keep us posted! > > Kate > ---- > StitchWitch > > Man is certainly stark mad: he cannot make a flea, yet he makes gods by the > dozens. - Montaigne, Essays - 1588 > > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ margaret bolger [21,679]CSuX:artizania update/ shopping tour in uk Subject: H-COST: Artizania update/ Shopping Tour in UK From: Margaret Bolger Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 07:33:58 -0400 -Poster: Margaret Bolger Just to let you know that I have now up-dated my web site with full information on my own 'Antique Costume & Textiles TOUR' in September. The tour will take in my antique costume & textiles Fair in Manchester, visits to Platt Hall costume Gallery, Gawthorpe Hall embroidery collection and various other places of interest. Full information is listed under 'Manchester Tour'. A couple of 'new' Books have been added....."Fashion in Art" (by Marie Simon) and "An EmbroideryHandbook" (by Anne KInox Arthur, 1920) Full details of my up-coming 'Antique Costume & Textiles Fair' at Sandown Park, Esher, Surrey on 25th July can also be found. Margaret antique costume & textiles http://www.artizania.co.uk hope h. dunlap [109,680]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 08:08:00 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" High tech is not the only way to go, I agree. The last pattern I bought (over the Web!) was from an Amish family company in Texas. They trace each pattern by hand with a common pencil and send it to you. It was $6.00. What more do you need? There are lots of people around who would welcome a job doing this sort of thing. Sure keeps your investment and your risk down! I personally think people should start printing their patterns on muslin. This way the fitting can occur directly on the pattern. Then the pattern lasts a while and is much more pleasant to work with too. You'd need to be careful of bias stretch with re-use, so perhaps a pellon pattern would be the compromise route to take. Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Dietmar -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, Margo wrote: >> One is grading the pattern into a range of sizes, and the other >> is doing the technica construction drawings that I want in the >> instructions. >> >> Are there people who offer these services? Has anyone on the >> list used them? It may sound like a strange suggestion, but try looking at the local junior college. They might just offer some clothing and textile classes. If so, you might be able to take the classes necessary to learn this. Even if they don't teach the patterning, you may be able to find a draftsman or artist who can do the technical drawings. Paying a student might be a good cheap alternative. Fran replied: > I know nothing about this company except from browsing their site. > However, they do sell most of the essential ingredients for > computerized pattern making: > > * A digitizer to enter the paper patterns into your computer > as vector graphics > > * Pattern-making software > > * A plotter to print full-size patterns > > You need software to enter the paper patterns with your digitizer > (in addition to the driver that enables the digitizer to talk to > your computer). I only glanced at this site last night, so am > not sure if their pattern-making software will do that or not. > If not, you probably need to buy AutoCAD--this is the CAD program > a lot of pattern-making software is based on. You can certainly do all of this, but it would be extremely expensive and will take years of study to use. I've been a professional draftsman for a number of years, and I can tell you that the equipment will run into the thousands of dollars. AutoCAD alone will be $2000-$4000 and a full-size digitizer, plotter, etc. will be about the same. You might be able to offset some of these costs by having a blueprint company do the conversion and plotting for you. See what service are available to you and weigh the costs in time and money before you make any decisions. Good luck, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _____ majordomo@indra.com jpmcteer@aol.com[9,681]CSuX:victorian corset, laughing moon Subject: H-COST: Victorian Corset, Laughing Moon From: JPMcTeer@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:20:50 EDT -Poster: JPMcTeer@aol.com I am planning to recommend the Laughing Moon Victorian Corset pattern to someone but I need to know if it is still available. Who might have it in stock and can they be reached online or by phone? Thanks for the help. Joan in Minneapolis i. marc carlson [26,682]CSuX:moy bog dress Subject: RE: H-COST: Moy Bog Dress From: "I. Marc Carlson" Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:21:01 -0500 -Poster: "I. Marc Carlson" <"Hope H. Dunlap" > >Could you explain where the fabric grain lines are on the >various gussets? I presume that the straight of the grain >runs from shoulder to wrist down the top of the sleeve. Is >that right? Do you have a layout showing how this might be >cut out a piece of fabric? Any waste, or is it all used? I was going to say "I don't know" since I didn't do the research, but I think some of this I can answer, based on the pictures she took (so remember, this is not a definative first hand account. The grain of the fabric appeasr to run from shoulder to hem, and the rear gores, at least, appear to also be vertical (which means that the pattern makes a slight angle shift where the gore meets the body of the garment. I can't say for the sleeve, but it sounds plasuible. Since this is just an estimate of what the pattern looks like. I can further estimate something based on this, but that would be little more than a guess on my part. But if you'd like, I can give it a shot. (I'm not doing much else this afternoon :) ) Marc lynn downward [24,683]CSuX:victorian corset, laughing moon Subject: Re: H-COST: Victorian Corset, Laughing Moon From: Lynn Downward Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:53:19 -0800 -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: JPMcTeer@aol.com > >I am planning to recommend the Laughing Moon Victorian Corset pattern to >someone but I need to know if it is still available. Who might have it in >stock and can they be reached online or by phone? Thanks for the help. > >Joan in Minneapolis It is still available. You might try the Laughing Moon website, which I don't have here at work. A search should be fairly easy. www.laughingmoon www.laughing.moon ?? Wonderful patterns, a lovely lady, very professional. (I took her Corset making class last year at Costume College and used the pattern - my only connection to the company.) LynnD lavolta press [65,684]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: Lavolta Press Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:36:34 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press > > > You can certainly do all of this, but it would be extremely expensive and will > take years of study to use. I've been a professional draftsman for a number > of years, and I can tell you that the equipment will run into the thousands of > dollars. AutoCAD alone will be $2000-$4000 and a full-size digitizer, > plotter, etc. will be about the same. You might be able to offset some of > these costs by having a blueprint company do the conversion and plotting for > you. See what service are available to you and weigh the costs in time and > money before you make any decisions. > > Good luck, > > Dietmar > > " I was assuming that since Margo said she wanted to start a professional business producing a high-end product, she wasn't planning to draw each pattern with a felt-tip pen before sending it out (which is also too time consuming for high-volume sales). Incidentally, there is also the issue of printing the patterns. Offset printing produces the highest quality results (blueprints change color over time). Personally, I'd say that if you want to just make patterns for yourself, or a few friends, very low tech (pencil and ruler) is not only the cheapest way to go, it's perfectly effective and efficient. I'm not putting down the quality of patterns people make in one- and two- of quantities. I'm just saying that when you get into printing quantities of patterns for strangers, your needs change. It's like the (good) advice someone gave about testing instructions. Hastily written instructions may work great if you're using them yourself; but paying customers may be unhappy with them. Anyway, it is true that it pays to shop around. Different vendors do not charge the same prices for equivalent (or even the same) equipment, or services. Also there is the question of whether it is cheaper in the long run to just buy the equipment and learn to do the work yourself, than to constantly pay vendors over time. This is the conclusion I came to. The only service I use vendors for now is offset printing. But although there are lots of options for starting a business--producing, as Margo wishes, a high-end product-- it does tend to involve more money and learning time than a hobby. Spending a few thousand dollars to start a business is not at all unrealistic. Spending several weeks exploring hardware and software options and a few more weeks learning to use what you bought is not unrealistic. The difficulties can be exaggerated though. I've digitized patterns with AutoCAD myself. Although AutoCAD is harder to use than a draw program (such as Corel Draw, which is what I use for drawing), it doesn't take "years" to learn. Most people could probably learn to do it in a few days of steady application. Fran --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm hope greenberg [13,685]CSuX:wanted: cheap muslin Subject: H-COST: Wanted: Cheap muslin From: Hope Greenberg Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:42:59 -0500 -Poster: Hope Greenberg Hi - Does anyone know where I can get, by mail/web order, about 50 yds of 120" unbleached muslin REALLY cheap? Like under $1 cheap, or what the heck maybe even 50 cents type cheap? Thanks! - hope.greenberg@uvm.edu charlene charette [22,686]CSuX:h-needlework Subject: Re: H-COST: h-needlework From: Charlene Charette Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:56:33 -0600 (MDT) -Poster: Charlene Charette Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn} wrote: > Someone mentioned this mailing list a while back. Does anyone have any > details on it i.e.: how to subscribe. Send a message to majordomo@ansteorra.org with the text "subscribe h-needlework" or "subscribe h-needlework-digest". --Charlene -- One may be my very good friend, and yet not of my opinion. -- Margaret Cavendish margo anderson [35,687]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: Margo Anderson Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:29:52 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson >I was assuming that since Margo said she wanted to start a professional business >producing a high-end product, she wasn't planning to draw each pattern with a >felt-tip pen before sending it out (which is also too time consuming for >high-volume sales). Incidentally, there is also the issue of printing the >patterns. Offset printing produces the highest quality results (blueprints change >color over time). Yes, I should have made that clear. I want my pattern to have very accurate grading, as one of the complaints I've heard about a number of costume patterns is that the grading up or down seems to be distorted so that pieces don't match up. Professional grading on good equipment should ensure that doesn't happen. I also want it to look professional. I recently ordered a pattern that turned out to be a hand drawn outline, with wiggly lines, blueprinted, with no markings. While it may have been adequate (it wasn't, but that's another story) it didn't do much for my confidence in the product. A few minutes with a French curve would have made a big difference in the perceived quality. I don't plan to start out in this venture by buying a lot of equipment, that's why I'm hoping to find contractors to do it for me. I'll let everyone know what I find out. It seems to me that with the number of small pattern companies starting up, someone could make a very good business out of pattern production. Margo margo anderson [83,688]CSuX:what makes a good pattern? Subject: H-COST: What makes a good pattern? From: Margo Anderson Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:58:28 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson I'd like input from list members on what they would like to see in a high end pattern, one that would be a complete costume package for a specific period, retailing in the $40 range. Here's some of the things I think are important: THE PATTERN: Patterns for all garments neccesary to make a complete ensemble of the period, plus accesories. accurate patterning, with all pieces and markings matching in all sizes. A large size range. 6-26? Clear, detailed instructions, with clear illustrations. Different construction options for ease vs historical acurracy. Fitting and alteration tips. Sturdy paper, not tissue DOCUMENTATION AND ADVICE solid historical documentation, citing primary documentation background suggestions and sketches for different syles to be obtained with pattern. extensive information on color, fabric, and trim selection multiple trim suggestions, with sketches (possibly) embroidery transfers bibliography Sources of supply for notions such as boning, etc. THE PACKAGE large envelope, with attractive illustrations yardages, specialty notions, etc, listed on envelope (this may not be feasible on a pattern as extensive as this?) size range includes measurements for each size Documentation and Advice package in large format booklet, spiral or otherwise bound. MARKETING A Website with information about the pattern, including price, ordering info, size range, and pictures of finished projects. So, what do you all think? Please let me know if you disagree with any of this, or if there's anything you think I missed. Thanks! Margo aleed [53,689]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: aleed Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 15:01:13 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: aleed Actually, if anyone can find a chart of "official" measurements for various sizes, I'd love to hear about it. What is the official underarm-to-waist length for a size twelve? or neck to shoulder measurement? There must be some sort of formula or database that Simplicity and Butterick use. Drea On Fri, 25 Jun 1999, Margo Anderson wrote: > > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > > >I was assuming that since Margo said she wanted to start a professional > business > >producing a high-end product, she wasn't planning to draw each pattern with a > >felt-tip pen before sending it out (which is also too time consuming for > >high-volume sales). Incidentally, there is also the issue of printing the > >patterns. Offset printing produces the highest quality results (blueprints > change > >color over time). > > Yes, I should have made that clear. I want my pattern to have very accurate > grading, as one of the complaints I've heard about a number of costume > patterns is that the grading up or down seems to be distorted so that pieces > don't match up. Professional grading on good equipment should ensure that > doesn't happen. > > I also want it to look professional. I recently ordered a pattern that > turned out to be a hand drawn outline, with wiggly lines, blueprinted, with > no markings. While it may have been adequate (it wasn't, but that's another > story) it didn't do much for my confidence in the product. A few minutes > with a French curve would have made a big difference in the perceived quality. > > I don't plan to start out in this venture by buying a lot of equipment, > that's why I'm hoping to find contractors to do it for me. I'll let > everyone know what I find out. It seems to me that with the number of small > pattern companies starting up, someone could make a very good business out > of pattern production. > > Margo > > > genevieve de courtanvaux [81,690]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 14:26:31 -0500 -Poster: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" You may try contacting JC Penny's. I know that some time in the past I remember seeing that they were looking for people of "x" size with "x" measurements so that they could test clothing for proper fit. If they published that information where I saw it then it shouldn't be some be industry secret. Good Luck. Carol Ross -----Original Message----- From: aleed To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Friday, June 25, 1999 2:06 PM Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz > >-Poster: aleed > >Actually, if anyone can find a chart of "official" measurements for >various sizes, I'd love to hear about it. What is the >official underarm-to-waist length for a size twelve? or neck to shoulder >measurement? There must be some sort of formula or database that >Simplicity and Butterick use. > > >Drea > > > On Fri, 25 Jun 1999, >Margo Anderson wrote: > >> >> -Poster: Margo Anderson >> >> >> >I was assuming that since Margo said she wanted to start a professional >> business >> >producing a high-end product, she wasn't planning to draw each pattern with a >> >felt-tip pen before sending it out (which is also too time consuming for >> >high-volume sales). Incidentally, there is also the issue of printing the >> >patterns. Offset printing produces the highest quality results (blueprints >> change >> >color over time). >> >> Yes, I should have made that clear. I want my pattern to have very accurate >> grading, as one of the complaints I've heard about a number of costume >> patterns is that the grading up or down seems to be distorted so that pieces >> don't match up. Professional grading on good equipment should ensure that >> doesn't happen. >> >> I also want it to look professional. I recently ordered a pattern that >> turned out to be a hand drawn outline, with wiggly lines, blueprinted, with >> no markings. While it may have been adequate (it wasn't, but that's another >> story) it didn't do much for my confidence in the product. A few minutes >> with a French curve would have made a big difference in the perceived quality. >> >> I don't plan to start out in this venture by buying a lot of equipment, >> that's why I'm hoping to find contractors to do it for me. I'll let >> everyone know what I find out. It seems to me that with the number of small >> pattern companies starting up, someone could make a very good business out >> of pattern production. >> >> Margo >> >> >> > > margo anderson [30,691]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: Margo Anderson Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:16:59 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson At 03:01 PM 6/25/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: aleed > >Actually, if anyone can find a chart of "official" measurements for >various sizes, I'd love to hear about it. What is the >official underarm-to-waist length for a size twelve? or neck to shoulder >measurement? There must be some sort of formula or database that >Simplicity and Butterick use. As I understand it, clothing sizes are standardized, based on a statistical survey of women being discharged from the Army in the late 40's. However, each and everyone of us who's ever tried on clothing in a store or made more than one pattern knows that this is a filthy lie. Obviously, every manufacturer and pattern company has its own whimsical sizing chart. What I wnat to do with my patterns is AT LEAST have measurements of bust and waist, and across the shoulders,and what size they correspond to on my chart. Of course, that doesn't mean a lot with some bodies. According to the measurement charts on some Simplicity patterns I recently bought, my bust , waist and hips are a size 28, but if I measure across my shoulders, they're a 14. Obviously, I need to do some alterations. Margo cynthia virtue [19,692]CSuX:what makes a good pattern? Subject: Re: H-COST: What makes a good pattern? From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 16:00:22 -0400 -Poster: Cynthia Virtue Margo Anderson wrote: > THE PACKAGE > > large envelope, with attractive illustrations Even better: an envelope large enough to hold the pattern pieces even after they are cut up and refolded. I iron my patterns down into folds again, but even so it's a struggle to get them in the original package, once used. cv -- Today is the yesterday you won't be able to remember tomorrow. -- Daniel Pinkwater August on the coast of Maine! Rent a cottage from our family business - http://www.virtue.to megan irvine [31,693]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: Megan Irvine Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 15:26:59 -0400 -Poster: Megan Irvine aleed wrote: > > -Poster: aleed > > Actually, if anyone can find a chart of "official" measurements for > various sizes, I'd love to hear about it. What is the > official underarm-to-waist length for a size twelve? or neck to shoulder > measurement? There must be some sort of formula or database that > Simplicity and Butterick use. > > Drea > The following book has a chart that lists measurements for the standard model that the large pattern companies use (but even these can vary from one company to the next). Fantastic Fit for Every Body : How to Alter Patterns to Flatter Your Figure (A Rodale Sewing Book) by Gale Grigg Hazen And overall it is a good book on adjusting commercial patterns to fit all types of bodies. It is available from Amazon but I borrowed it from my local library. -- Megan Irvine sarah toney [41,694]CSuX:what makes a good pattern? Subject: Re: H-COST: What makes a good pattern? From: Sarah Toney Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:58:41 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Sarah Toney Hazzah to this! I buy big plastic zip lock bags for my patterns. I HATE not being able to put the pattern back in the package... sarah --- Cynthia Virtue wrote: > > -Poster: Cynthia Virtue > > Margo Anderson wrote: > > THE PACKAGE > > > > large envelope, with attractive illustrations > > Even better: an envelope large enough to hold the > pattern pieces even > after they are cut up and refolded. I iron my > patterns down into folds > again, but even so it's a struggle to get them in > the original package, > once used. > > cv > -- > Today is the yesterday you won't be able to remember > tomorrow. -- > Daniel Pinkwater > August on the coast of Maine! Rent a cottage from > our family business - http://www.virtue.to > > > majordomo@indra.com > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com brandy dickson [20,695]CSuX:what makes a good pattern? Subject: Re: H-COST: What makes a good pattern? From: "Brandy Dickson" Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:44:52 -0700 -Poster: "Brandy Dickson" : I'd like input from list members on what they would like to see in a high : end pattern, one that would be a complete costume package for a specific : period, retailing in the $40 range. : I think it's kinda important to add the sewing level of the pattern on the pattern or the Envelope, as I would hate someone to pick up an advanced sewing pattern when they are beginners and don't particularly know how to do "piping" for example! *grin* Anyways.... just my opinion... Brandy Dickson query@mindless.com megan irvine [31,696]CSuX:victorian corset, laughing moon Subject: Re: H-COST: Victorian Corset, Laughing Moon From: Megan Irvine Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:11:17 -0400 -Poster: Megan Irvine I purchased this pattern directly from Laughing Moon about a month ago. I ordered it via their website http://www.lafnmoon.com/ I think you can also get it from Farthingales. http://www.farthingales.on.ca/ And, I recommend the pattern too. It was my first Victorian corset and I thought the instructions were very clear. The resulting product looks really good too. JPMcTeer@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: JPMcTeer@aol.com > > I am planning to recommend the Laughing Moon Victorian Corset pattern to > someone but I need to know if it is still available. Who might have it in > stock and can they be reached online or by phone? Thanks for the help. > > Joan in Minneapolis -- Megan Irvine Course Developer, Educational Services (412) 201-3520, Rm. 1741 margo anderson [14,697]CSuX:victorian corset, laughing moon Subject: Re: H-COST: Victorian Corset, Laughing Moon From: Margo Anderson Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:32:25 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson >And, I recommend the pattern too. It was my first Victorian corset and I >thought the instructions were very clear. The resulting product looks >really good too. Has anyone tried it in the larger sizes? It goes up to 26, yipee! It's a great price, too: camisole, drawers, and corset for $12! Margo lavolta press [49,698]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: Lavolta Press Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:41:42 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press > Obviously, every > manufacturer and pattern company has its own whimsical sizing chart. Almost nobody is average, or conforms to any industry standard size. IMO, if you want to test a pattern for a standard size use a dress form in that size, not a live person. However, well graded standard sizes do provide a good starting point for fitting. The larger pattern companies (Vogue, McCall's, etc.) actually have an agreement to all use the same size chart, although they reserve the right to add as much "style ease" to any pattern as they want. The smaller historical pattern companies do all seem to have their own size charts. Ready-to-wear manufacturers have never agreed to use standard sizing throughout the industry, or to use the same sizing as pattern companies. > > > What I wnat to do with my patterns is AT LEAST have measurements of bust and > waist, and across the shoulders,and what size they correspond to on my chart. If you plan to make the patterns easily alterable by people who are taller or shorter than average, it is also necessary to have the waistline of each piece marked, to say what the back-of-neck down to waistline measurement is, and to say what the sleeve length is from the shoulder point to the wrist. If the pattern fits tightly around the hips, it is also helpful to have the hip line marked. IMO, historical pattern companies are much more likely to allow for people having different circumference measurements, than different heights. For a skirt to be worn over a hoopskirt, bum roll, or bustle, it would also be helpful to say what the assumed height of the wearer is, from the waist to the bottom of the finished skirt. This cuts down on the "How much of this extra length is supposed to go over the bustle and how much do I need to cut off the pattern?" calculations. Fran --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm hope h. dunlap [53,699]CSuX:wanted: cheap muslin Subject: H-COST: Wanted: Cheap muslin From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 16:54:20 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Well, I know nothing about this, but I went to the search engine at the extreme bottom of the page on http://www.fabricclub.com/HelpDesk.html , clicked on "Web search," typed in 120" muslin, and got a whole raft of suppliers. Fabric club has a remnant bin, incidentally, nothing over $1.99 per yard, but I didn't see any 120" wide goods on the site. This supplier carries 120" (they call it 3-meter) and they go all the way up to 12-meter widths. No prices on-line, but you can e-mail them from the site with your question. For the 120" stuff, the bolt length is 65 yards, by the way, but they will cut. http://www.ushwy1.com/gerriets/muslin.html They cater to the theatre market, so there's lots of neat stuff there, like scene canvas, theatrical gauze, fabric for ballet floors, much more. Do consider your local codes and common sense suppliers. Curtain and drapery suppliers also carry very wide width fabric. Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Hope Greenberg -Poster: Hope Greenberg Hi - Does anyone know where I can get, by mail/web order, about 50 yds of 120" unbleached muslin REALLY cheap? Like under $1 cheap, or what the heck maybe even 50 cents type cheap? Thanks! - hope.greenberg@uvm.edu _____ majordomo@indra.com hope h. dunlap [95,700]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 15:51:38 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" The Vogue patterns website has the official measurements -- click on "technical" when you get to the website. I forget the URL--use www.metacrawler.com to find it. Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of aleed -Poster: aleed Actually, if anyone can find a chart of "official" measurements for various sizes, I'd love to hear about it. What is the official underarm-to-waist length for a size twelve? or neck to shoulder measurement? There must be some sort of formula or database that Simplicity and Butterick use. Drea On Fri, 25 Jun 1999, Margo Anderson wrote: > > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > > >I was assuming that since Margo said she wanted to start a professional > business > >producing a high-end product, she wasn't planning to draw each pattern with a > >felt-tip pen before sending it out (which is also too time consuming for > >high-volume sales). Incidentally, there is also the issue of printing the > >patterns. Offset printing produces the highest quality results (blueprints > change > >color over time). > > Yes, I should have made that clear. I want my pattern to have very accurate > grading, as one of the complaints I've heard about a number of costume > patterns is that the grading up or down seems to be distorted so that pieces > don't match up. Professional grading on good equipment should ensure that > doesn't happen. > > I also want it to look professional. I recently ordered a pattern that > turned out to be a hand drawn outline, with wiggly lines, blueprinted, with > no markings. While it may have been adequate (it wasn't, but that's another > story) it didn't do much for my confidence in the product. A few minutes > with a French curve would have made a big difference in the perceived quality. > > I don't plan to start out in this venture by buying a lot of equipment, > that's why I'm hoping to find contractors to do it for me. I'll let > everyone know what I find out. It seems to me that with the number of small > pattern companies starting up, someone could make a very good business out > of pattern production. > > Margo > > > _____ majordomo@indra.com > _____ majordomo@indra.com hope h. dunlap [96,701]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:04:38 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" That Website for the standard measurements is at http://www.voguepatterns.com/tech/tech.html, including a chart which defines closely fitted, loosely fitted, etc in inches of ease for each area of the body. Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of aleed -Poster: aleed Actually, if anyone can find a chart of "official" measurements for various sizes, I'd love to hear about it. What is the official underarm-to-waist length for a size twelve? or neck to shoulder measurement? There must be some sort of formula or database that Simplicity and Butterick use. Drea On Fri, 25 Jun 1999, Margo Anderson wrote: > > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > > >I was assuming that since Margo said she wanted to start a professional > business > >producing a high-end product, she wasn't planning to draw each pattern with a > >felt-tip pen before sending it out (which is also too time consuming for > >high-volume sales). Incidentally, there is also the issue of printing the > >patterns. Offset printing produces the highest quality results (blueprints > change > >color over time). > > Yes, I should have made that clear. I want my pattern to have very accurate > grading, as one of the complaints I've heard about a number of costume > patterns is that the grading up or down seems to be distorted so that pieces > don't match up. Professional grading on good equipment should ensure that > doesn't happen. > > I also want it to look professional. I recently ordered a pattern that > turned out to be a hand drawn outline, with wiggly lines, blueprinted, with > no markings. While it may have been adequate (it wasn't, but that's another > story) it didn't do much for my confidence in the product. A few minutes > with a French curve would have made a big difference in the perceived quality. > > I don't plan to start out in this venture by buying a lot of equipment, > that's why I'm hoping to find contractors to do it for me. I'll let > everyone know what I find out. It seems to me that with the number of small > pattern companies starting up, someone could make a very good business out > of pattern production. > > Margo > > > _____ majordomo@indra.com > _____ majordomo@indra.com albertcat@aol.com[27,702]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:02:06 EDT -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 6/25/99 2:37:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, margo@directcon.net writes: << Yes, I should have made that clear. I want my pattern to have very accurate grading, as one of the complaints I've heard about a number of costume patterns is that the grading up or down seems to be distorted so that pieces don't match up. Professional grading on good equipment should ensure that doesn't happen. >> It's been my experience that sizing up or down on a pattern starts to really distort after about 4" overall are added. After that, stuff like neck curves & shoulder slopes must change. Having a gazillion sizes on one pattern sheet looks & is confusing....& kinda cheesy. Sizes should only be like 6-8-10 then another for 12-14-16 [actually 6-8, 10-12, 14-16....is better.] It means a better fit & looks more professional. Of course no pattern is perfect because everyone is different so a mockup must be recommended. I like to make mock ups out of something appropriate from the remnant table if $$$$ allows. Then, if it's not too cluttered with fitting changes, it can become a usable costume [perhaps for "servants" or for "undress"] as well as the "good" costume. dietmar [66,703]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: Dietmar Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 14:08:52 +0000 -Poster: Dietmar Greetings, I had written: >> You can certainly do all of this, but it would be extremely >> expensive and will take years of study to use. I've been a >> professional draftsman for a number of years, and I can tell >> you that the equipment will run into the thousands of dollars. >> AutoCAD alone will be $2000-$4000 and a full-size digitizer, >> plotter, etc. will be about the same. You might be able to >> offset some of these costs by having a blueprint company do >> the conversion and plotting for you. See what service are >> available to you and weigh the costs in time and money before >> you make any decisions. Fran replied: > I was assuming that since Margo said she wanted to start a > professional business producing a high-end product, she wasn't > planning to draw each pattern with a felt-tip pen before > sending it out (which is also too time consuming for high- > volume sales). Incidentally, there is also the issue of > printing the patterns. Offset printing produces the highest > quality results (blueprints change color over time). You may notice that I never suggested that the patterns should be produced by diazo printing. I realize that they fade. I merely pointed out that some blueprint companies offer scanning, conversion and plotting services. Once the pattern is drawn up, it can be scanned in and a high quality plot produced, which can then be taken to a printer for the production run. > Spending a few thousand dollars to start a business is not at > all unrealistic. Spending several weeks exploring hardware and > software options and a few more weeks learning to use what you > bought is not unrealistic. Agreed. > The difficulties can be exaggerated though. I've digitized > patterns with AutoCAD myself. Although AutoCAD is harder to > use than a draw program (such as Corel Draw, which is what I > use for drawing), it doesn't take "years" to learn. Most > people could probably learn to do it in a few days of steady > application. You're absolutely right. I exaggerated. It may not take years to learn the basics, but it can be confusing and frustrating to those less technologically inclined. It may also be entirely unnecessary. Sorry, if I've upset anyone in any way, as that was certainly not my intent. I still wish Margo nothing but good luck. :-) Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." albertcat@aol.com[18,704]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:13:04 EDT -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 6/25/99 4:08:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mirv@transarc.com writes: << What is the > official underarm-to-waist length for a size twelve? or neck to shoulder > measurement? >> Y'know....when I do a 19th century pattern not for anyone specific [like something to be worn by a yet-to-be-cased extra] if it's fashionable I'll make the bust 10" larger than the waist. I know this is not the norm but with these waist synching corseted periods it looks ideal. Get the waist right & pad up the bust a little [and hips too if it's bustle] Why not? They did back then. You can get that tight corseted look without killing the actress. For everyday stuff a 6" to 8" difference is more normal. arcadiacb@aol.com[19,705]CSuX:patterns Subject: H-COST: Re: patterns From: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:27:59 EDT -Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com A good second to the idea of an envelope large enough to get that pattern in after its cut, but even better yet--particularily for a historic garment pattern in multiple sized that will be used many times--one of those plastic coated envelopes that won't rip out at the sides from many uses. After I loaned to a friend a pattern which I had used many times and the envelope was in shreds, when she returned it, she had covered the envelope with clean contact paper to hold it together. I then went and did that with all of my historical patterns (some I had to add little bits to the original envelope so there was something for the contact paper to stick to). I also went to the office supply store and found large white envelopes that already had some sort of plastic coating. These I use to keep my "drafted-up" patterns and altered patterns. So I add my vote for sturdy patterns and envelopes, clear, illustrated instructions and documentation, documentation, documentation. Charlene robesof@aol.com[38,706]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: RobesOf@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:45:24 EDT -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com In a message dated 6/25/99 3:04:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, aleed@dnaco.net writes: << Actually, if anyone can find a chart of "official" measurements for various sizes, I'd love to hear about it. What is the official underarm-to-waist length for a size twelve? or neck to shoulder measurement? There must be some sort of formula or database that Simplicity and Butterick use. >> Yes, every clothing manufacturer follows a different standard. Every so many years they change it. Yes, mainstream pattern companies have agreed upon one standard to use. Yes, every body is different and may or may not need to alter the pattern. But we do need a place to start. Yes, the Vogue Pattern website is a great resource for someone trying to learn which pattern size they should purchase. However, you have asked for a standard sloper size chart with a lot of detail (e.g., underarm-to-waist length for a size twelve) which is not provided at the Vogue website (I'm not sure about the book previously mentioned). I have a "standard" measurement chart listing every conceivable measurement for women's size 6 - 18. Anyone who would like copies of this as well as diagrams of where to measure on the body can email me directly. You will need to be able to open a JPEG file on your computer. Anyone who cannot open JPEG's can email their snail mail address and I will mail them copies. Otherwise, you can find this particular chart in "Patternmaking for Fashion Design" by Helen Joseph Armstrong. It is a textbook, so you will find this as a special order for $72 on Amazon. I would like to reiterate that this is merely one version of the supposed standard and seems to coincide with the average clothing manufacturer. Hope I can be of help to those interested. Erica lavolta press [66,707]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: Lavolta Press Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 14:47:12 -0700 -Poster: Lavolta Press > > > You may notice that I never suggested that the patterns should be produced by > diazo printing. I didn't say or think that you did suggest blueprinting. However, some pattern companies do blueprint, presumably because it is a relatively inexpensive way to produce small quantities. I just don't think the results are high quality or durable. > I realize that they fade. I merely pointed out that some > blueprint companies offer scanning, conversion and plotting services. Once > the pattern is drawn up, it can be scanned in and a high quality plot > produced, which can then be taken to a printer for the production run. Please don't think I'm accusing you of not knowing this . . . but to avoid confusion, scanning and digitizing do not produce the same results. Digitizing produces vector graphics you can change mathematically. For example if one size pattern is digitized, you can grade additional sizes on a computer. Scanning produces a bit map picture that can't be operated on in the same ways. The resulting files are bigger--with a scan, white space counts as file space; with vector graphics it doesn't. This does become a storage issue, on both your computer and the media used to transfer files between any service you use and your computer. By conversion, I assume you mean converting scanned files to vector graphics? > > > You're absolutely right. I exaggerated. It may not take years to learn the > basics, but it can be confusing and frustrating to those less technologically > inclined. It may also be entirely unnecessary. You can certainly hire services for scanning and I assume digitizing (though I've never hired anyone to digitize). As for the "technologically inclined" part . . . if you don't know how to use a program, you can read the manual and learn how. And thus transform yourself from "technologically uninclined" to "technologically inclined." I'm not saying everybody has to go out and buy a bunch of high-tech hardware or software. But just because you haven't learned to do something yet doesn't mean you can't, so there's no reason to be intimidated if it would be useful for you. > > > Sorry, if I've upset anyone in any way, as that was certainly not my intent. You haven't upset me at all . . . I have no reason whatever to be upset. Fran --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm j,k,s&a baird [14,708]CSuX:patterns Subject: H-COST: patterns From: "J,K,S&A Baird" Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:17:55 -0500 -Poster: "J,K,S&A Baird" I got so sick of trying to get the pattern pieces back in the envelopes that I quit doing it. I keep them all in plastic bags that I get from Clotilde. You can see them at the URL below: http://www.clotilde.com/store/showdetl.cfm?&User_ID=260011&St=7646&St2=-576 994155&St3=763927023&DS_ID=4&Product_ID=2402&DID=16 Kim brian and julie schuck [41,709]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: Brian and Julie Schuck Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:39:24 -0500 -Poster: Brian and Julie Schuck --------------FDF596CCEA6FA9F1E2CF5191 Actually, if anyone can find a chart of "official" measurements for various sizes, I'd love to hear about it. What is the official underarm-to-waist length for a size twelve? or neck to shoulder measurement? There must be some sort of formula or database that Simplicity and Butterick use. "Patternmaking for Fashion Design" by Helen Armstrong has standard measurements for ladies sizes 6 to 18, and also a set of standard measurements for children. This book is very useful in designing original patterns and adjusting for figure differences, the best I've seen. I use it all the time. I don't know where one would find larger size measurements, but the Burda World of Fashion might have them. Julie http://www.vci.net/~schuck --------------FDF596CCEA6FA9F1E2CF5191 Actually, if anyone can find a chart of "official" measurements for
various sizes, I'd love to hear about it.  What is the
official underarm-to-waist length for a size twelve?   or neck to shoulder
measurement? There must be some sort of formula or database that
Simplicity and Butterick use.

"Patternmaking for Fashion Design" by Helen Armstrong  has standard measurements for  ladies sizes 6 to 18,  and also a set of standard measurements for children. This book is very useful in designing original patterns and adjusting for figure differences, the best I've seen. I use it all the time. I don't know where one would find larger size measurements, but the Burda World of Fashion might have them.

Julie
http://www.vci.net/~schuck --------------FDF596CCEA6FA9F1E2CF5191-- kathleen.maher@asu.edu[23,710]CSuX:wanted: cheap muslin Subject: Re: H-COST: Wanted: Cheap muslin From: KATHLEEN.MAHER@asu.edu Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 16:03:32 -0700 (MST) -Poster: KATHLEEN.MAHER@asu.edu Try Dharma Trading Company www.dharma.com On Fri, 25 Jun 1999, Hope Greenberg wrote: > > -Poster: Hope Greenberg > > Hi - > > Does anyone know where I can get, by mail/web order, about 50 yds of > 120" unbleached muslin REALLY cheap? Like under $1 cheap, or what the > heck maybe even 50 cents type cheap? > > Thanks! > > - hope.greenberg@uvm.edu > gaelscot@aol.com[12,711]CSuX:cheap muslin Subject: H-COST: cheap muslin From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 20:25:41 EDT -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com If you live anywhere near an IKEA store, they sell 120-in. muslin inexpensively. I've bought it there but I don't remember the price -- about $4 a yard, I think. There are IKEA stores in Pittsburgh, New York, Chicago, and a couple of other cities I can't remember. Gail Finke rio@austin.rr.com (strangegirl)[21,712]CSuX:wanted: cheap muslin Subject: Re: H-COST: Wanted: Cheap muslin From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 00:30:56 GMT -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) On Fri, 25 Jun 1999 16:03:32 -0700 (MST), you wrote: > >-Poster: KATHLEEN.MAHER@asu.edu > > > Try Dharma Trading Company www.dharma.com I checked this and go an IT company :) So, being resourceful, i searched my bookmarks adn found it: http://www.dharmatrading.com/ Margery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~There is no spoon~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ {*to reply take "spambegone" from my reply-to address*} marsha s. mclean [36,713]CSuX:h-costume-digest v4 #397 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #397 From: "Marsha S. McLean" Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:16:44 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: "Marsha S. McLean" yOU WROTE: >From: Kwhykelly@aol.com > >Hi, > >I am looking for a pattern or good instructions on how to make a houpelande. > >Also, can I use linen or is this a wool only sort of clothing? > >Thanks > >Kristi Kelly >> I have always cut mu houppelandes in as wide an a-line as possible. I maintain a true shoulder measurement and flare out from the point of the shoulder. If I wanted more pronounced pleats across the chest, i might cut the shoulders straight accross or even slope the up from the neck, instead of down from the neck as in a standard upper body pattern. I find that this gives full, lush pleats that fall perfectly. For fabric, I favour silk brocade (surprise?) or velvet, cut or figured velvet, wool, heavier linen (damask?!), cord-du-roi, whatever was available and is max-rich. wasn't the point to show off how much rich fabric you coauld afford? Silk brocade lined with a different silk brocade and trimmed with a third, different silk brocade, with a hat in another brocade..... Marsha }:^)> pierre & sandy pettinger [75,714]CSuX:pattern, etc. Subject: H-COST: Re: Pattern, etc. From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:13:01 -0500 -Poster: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger Here's my 2 cents worth: >- -Poster: Margo Anderson > Here's some of the things I think are important: >large envelope, with attractive illustrations >- -Poster: Sarah Toney > >Hazzah to this! I buy big plastic zip lock bags for >my patterns. I HATE not being able to put the pattern >back in the package... > What Sarah said! I would prefer a Ziploc bag - then the illos can go on a plain piece of paper /folder inside (a la Folkwear). Saves on specially printed envelopes. >Documentation and Advice package in large format booklet, spiral or >otherwise bound. Saddle stapled with a heavier cover is OK - it still will lie flat for use and will take up less space in the envelope. Spiral binding will bulge and make it difficult to file/stack/whatever. Good editing - I must have been an editor in a previous life - obvious misspellings, etc. really annoy me. >What I wnat to do with my patterns is AT LEAST have measurements of bust and >waist, and across the shoulders,and what size they correspond to on my chart. YES! >If you plan to make the patterns easily alterable by people who are taller or >shorter than average, it is also necessary to have the waistline of each piece >marked, to say what the back-of-neck down to waistline measurement is, and to >say what the sleeve length is from the shoulder point to the wrist. If the >pattern fits tightly around the hips, it is also helpful to have the hip line >marked. >IMO, historical pattern companies are much more likely to allow for people >having different circumference measurements, than different heights. >For a skirt to be worn over a hoopskirt, bum roll, or bustle, it would also be >helpful to say what the assumed height of the wearer is, from the waist to >the bottom of the finished skirt. This cuts down on the "How much of this >extra length is supposed to go over the bustle and how much do I need to cut >off the pattern?" calculations. >Fran Or "how much do I need to add to get the same amount of train?" What Fran said - for any mainstream pattern (Vogue, Simplicity, etc.) I need to add at least 3 inches length above the waist (neck to waist is 19.5") and at least 6" in length below(I'm 5'11"). > Of course, that doesn't mean a lot with some bodies. According to the >measurement charts on some Simplicity patterns I recently bought, my bust , >waist and hips are a size 28, but if I measure across my shoulders, they're >a 14. Obviously, I need to do some alterations. Do you know about using the high bust measurement (chest above bust) instead of full bust to find your pattern size? This will give a more accurate fit in the neck and shoulders. Pattern alterations for a full bust are easier than neck and shoulders. By high bust, I am a 16-18, but by full bust, I'm a 24 and they hang like sacks at that size. Enough for now. Sandy marsha s. mclean [46,715]CSuX:h-costume-digest v4 #399 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #399 From: "Marsha S. McLean" Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 01:16:58 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: "Marsha S. McLean" >From: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" >Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 14:26:31 -0500 >Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz > >- -Poster: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" > >You may try contacting JC Penny's. I know that some time in the past I >remember seeing that they were looking for people of "x" size with "x" >measurements so that they could test clothing for proper fit. If they >published that information where I saw it then it shouldn't be some be >industry secret. Good Luck. >Carol Ross >> >>-Poster: aleed >> >>Actually, if anyone can find a chart of "official" measurements for >>various sizes, I'd love to hear about it. What is the >>official underarm-to-waist length for a size twelve? or neck to shoulder >>measurement? There must be some sort of formula or database that >>Simplicity and Butterick use. >> Years ago I was a modelling agent contacted by The Limited (Large Womens' Clothing chain) to obtain a "typical" size 8. I went through our enitire database and could only find ONE individual who's measurements remotely resembled this "typical size 8. AND THAT ONLY AFTER SHE'D DRUNK 6 GLASSES OF WATER. tHE PROPORTIONS WERE JUST TOO WEIRD. Ironic, though, because those clothes always fit me well. The model in question was a nursing mother of three, too. Just to say how strange some of the fashion industry's idea of size is. then again, they think most of the world weighs 110 pounds (nothing against those who do, just saying that it's not average). Marsha peggy a. stonnell [63,716]CSuX:what makes a good pattern? Subject: Re: H-COST: What makes a good pattern? From: "Peggy A. Stonnell" Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 20:04:21 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: "Peggy A. Stonnell" On Fri, 25 Jun 1999, Margo Anderson wrote: > > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > I'd like input from list members on what they would like to see in a high > end pattern, one that would be a complete costume package for a specific > period, retailing in the $40 range. > > Here's some of the things I think are important: > > THE PATTERN: > > A large size range. 6-26? Yes, yes, yes. I hover between 24 and 26 myself and I have a few friends who are a little bigger. Large sizes are just not given the support and products we need (and are willing to pay for). > (possibly) embroidery transfers Good idea. Or at least, some idea of what would suit the garment, where to find other designs as well. I love a touch luxury stitching on my cloths. > Sources of supply for notions such as boning, etc. Especialy mail order for people in, shall we say, less well supplied areas. > THE PACKAGE > > large envelope, with attractive illustrations Strudy, reclosable. With ease to put the *used* pattern pieces back in. > Documentation and Advice package in large format booklet, spiral or > otherwise bound. What every binding system you choose, it should lie flat stay open at the page you are using. > MARKETING > > A Website with information about the pattern, including price, ordering > info, size range, and pictures of finished projects. > Make it easy for people out your country and people without credit cards to order. I'm looking forward to more info. Good luck Peggy firefly [23,717]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: " Firefly" Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 07:48:41 -0700 -Poster: " Firefly" I want to add little defense of the standard size sloper to this discussion. I think its purpose is to provide a consistent starting point so that sewers have an understanding of how they are going to have to alter patterns on a consistent basis. Patterns that conform to these standards should never require sewing a muslin, because an experienced sewer will look at the amount of ease and alter the pattern appropriately before cutting out the fashion fabric. And that leads me to my big irritation, which I mentioned before: pattern drafters being limited by their own figure flaws. When they compensate for that, they are making patterns that really only fit folks like them--and leading those who expect a norm of alteration into a quandry. For instance, take your own example: Mode Bagatelle. As a relatively small person, I ended up having to completely redraft a bodice for one of the garments for their artistic reform teagown. I could tell that the pattern had been made by someone who probably had a much larger figure and hadn't graded the pattern down to the standard proportions of a smaller person. If it had been set to the standard sloper, however, I could have easily altered the pattern to suit my own figure irregularities without completely redrafting it. Altering is an advanced sewing skill--but is a necessary one if you want to avoid complete frustration or the task of sewing endles (oftern wasteful muslin prototypes. Now that I have that off my chest, I'm heading out to the yard--it's too gorgeous a Saturday to hang out banging the computer all day! Mary HotBot - Search smarter. http://www.hotbot.com margo anderson [26,718]CSuX:pattern, etc. Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Pattern, etc. From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 09:14:16 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson => >Do you know about using the high bust measurement (chest above bust) >instead of full bust to find your pattern size? I understand it in theory, but how do you find out what size high bust that pattern is? Do the pattern companies have it on those charts in the back of the book? When I do alter a commercial pattern,. I use the measurement across the front, from the creases of the armpit. Is this what you mean by high bust measurement? I rarely buy commercial patterns from the big companies. . The only reason I bought the latest one is that, after doing extensive research and starting to draft up a pattern for an 1880's wrapper, I ran across a Simplicity pattern (#8755) that was perfect, except fo the back zipper which I changed to a front buttoned placket. Margo margo anderson [29,719]CSuX:h-costume-digest v4 #399 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #399 From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 09:20:15 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson >Years ago I was a modelling agent contacted by The Limited (Large Womens' >Clothing chain) to obtain a "typical" size 8. I went through our enitire >database and could only find ONE individual who's measurements remotely >resembled this "typical size 8. AND THAT ONLY AFTER SHE'D DRUNK 6 GLASSES >OF WATER. tHE PROPORTIONS WERE JUST TOO WEIRD. Ironic, though, because >those clothes always fit me well. The model in question was a nursing >mother of three, too. > >Just to say how strange some of the fashion industry's idea of size is. > Yes! During a brief stint in plus size modeling years ago I went on an interview for a job as a fit model for Levi-Strauss. They measured me and told me that my measurements were just right except that my waist was three inches too big, but if I could diet it off they'd like to see me again "Because you have a 17 inch thigh, and we can never find a size 18 with a 17 inch thigh". Geeze, you'd think that would tell them something. Now that I'm more sumptuously proportioned than I used to be, guess what? most jeans in my size are too tight in the thighs! Duhh.. Margo margo anderson [18,720]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 09:25:44 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson >And that leads me to my big irritation, which I mentioned before: pattern drafters being limited by their own figure flaws. When they compensate for that, they are making patterns that really only fit folks like them--and leading those who expect a norm of alteration into a quandry. I have no plans to use my own body as a starting point. As I said before, I have size 14 shoulders, size 28 bust and waist, plus I'm taller than average, have abnormally short, curved arms, and a thick neck. One breast is a C, one a D. Imagine how peculiar a pattern drafted for my body would look graded down to size 6! Margo margo anderson [23,721]CSuX:costuming the costumer Subject: H-COST: H-Cost: Costuming the Costumer From: Margo Anderson Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 09:34:09 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson Help! I have a reporter from our local paper coming on Monday, to interview and photograph me for a feature article about my costume classes and business. So, of course, my question is, what should I wear? I have no time to sew anything new, no cash to buy. I don't want to wear a costume: something about it seems, I don't know, ametuerish? I'll have two of my most stunning costumes on mannequins so that we can do a posed "working on the costume" shot. So should I wear something that says "artsy", such as my multi-print Afghani nomad dress, or something plain and unobstrusive that doesn't clash with the colorful costume I'll be posing with? Or should I wear my "One Tough Costumer" T-shirt? Help! Margo penny ladnier [84,722]CSuX:textle book question Subject: H-COST: Textle Book Question From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:50:56 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BEBFD2.8887EF80 Can someone help this person with questions about textile books. Please = reply directly to her at hhartlerode@worldnet.att.net Thanks Penny **************************=20 Hi, my name is Holly Hartlerode and I take care of the costume = collections at the Wolcott House museum in Maumee, Ohio. We have a = rather large and quite beautiful collection of dresses from many people = in the Toledo area including many prominate people in Toledo's history. = My question is there a book that strictly deals with fabrics from = 1830-1940 and how to identify them. Also a book that gives every type = of style from that 110 year time span. I am quite firmilar with many = styles, but since fashions often repeat themselves sometimes it becomes = difficult to decifer time periods. Also because there are so many = blends of natural materials and their similarities figuring out what = things are made of becomes maddening. I have done a lot of research, = but I have found nothing book wise to be 100% effective in answering = questions of such a specific nature.=20 =20 Thank You for your time, =20 Holly Hartlerode hhartlerode@worldnet.att.net ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BEBFD2.8887EF80

Can someone help this person with = questions=20 about textile books.  Please reply directly to her at hhartlerode@worldnet.att.net=
Thanks Penny
 
************************** 
Hi, my name is Holly Hartlerode and = I take care=20 of the costume collections at the Wolcott House museum in Maumee, = Ohio.  We=20 have a rather large and quite beautiful collection of dresses from many = people=20 in the Toledo area including many prominate people in Toledo's = history.  My=20 question is there a book that strictly deals with fabrics from 1830-1940 = and how=20 to identify them.  Also a book that gives every type of style from = that 110=20 year time span.  I am quite firmilar with many styles, but since = fashions=20 often repeat themselves sometimes it becomes difficult to decifer time=20 periods.  Also because there are so many blends of natural = materials and=20 their similarities figuring out what things are made of becomes = maddening. =20 I have done a lot of research, but I have found nothing book wise to be = 100%=20 effective in answering questions of such a specific nature. =
 
Thank You for your = time,
 
Holly Hartlerode
hhartlerode@worldnet.att.net=
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BEBFD2.8887EF80-- andrea clef [48,723]CSuX:costuming the costumer Subject: H-COST: Re:Costuming the costumer From: Andrea Clef Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 07:41:42 +0200 -Poster: Andrea Clef --------------F01E44EB0F77F222BADB90DA Hello Margo! > So should I wear something that says "artsy", such as my multi-print > Afghani nomad dress, or something plain and unobstrusive that doesn't clash > with the colorful costume I'll be posing with? Or should I wear my "One > Tough Costumer" T-shirt? > Well, I would do it the classical European way ;-) and wear an unobtrusive, classicalbusiness outfit, black trousers and a nice blouse maybe that flatters you, I think this would give a very professional impression! Good luck with your interview! Many greetings, Diana --------------F01E44EB0F77F222BADB90DA Hello Margo!
 
So should I wear something that says  "artsy", such as my multi-print
Afghani nomad dress, or something plain and unobstrusive that doesn't clash
with the colorful costume I'll be posing with?  Or should I wear my "One
Tough Costumer" T-shirt?
Well, I would do it the classical European way ;-) and wear an unobtrusive, classicalbusiness outfit, black trousers and a nice blouse maybe that flatters you,
I think this would give a very professional impression!

Good luck with your interview!
Many greetings,
Diana
  --------------F01E44EB0F77F222BADB90DA-- kyna grannd [21,724]CSuX:costuming the costumer Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Costuming the costumer From: "Kyna Grannd" Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 13:21:46 -0400 -Poster: "Kyna Grannd" >Well, I would do it the classical European way ;-) and wear an unobtrusive, >classicalbusiness outfit, black trousers and a nice blouse maybe that flatters you, >I think this would give a very professional impression! >Good luck with your interview! >Many greetings, >Diana I agree with Diana. Let your costume speak for your work and let your outfit speak for you...the professional who has imagination and skill enough to create what is next to you, yet isn't a flake ::winks:: Best wishes for a great interview and lots of inquiries from it! ~Kyna snowfire@mail.snet.net[40,725]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: snowfire@mail.snet.net Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 14:04:02 -0400 -Poster: snowfire@mail.snet.net -Poster: Elysant >And that leads me to my big irritation, which I mentioned before: pattern >drafters being limited by their own figure flaws. When they compensate for >that, they are making patterns that really only fit folks like them--and >leading those who expect a norm of alteration into a quandry. This is so true. I went to college with a girl who was used as the model for garments fo one of the local clothing companies (which had a wide distribution area). She was the same clothing size as me, but totally different in shape and height. Also she didn't strike me as being particularly balanced or typical in shape enough that a clothing company would have chosen her to represent the typical woman's figure! (Ok sounds harsh - but!) I wonder who makes these decisions sometimes! Another piece of this is that in shopping malls in Mexico, I notice the majority of the clothes are petite and much smaller sized. Cultural differences obviously have to be taken into consideration if you want to sell a product! As a petite myself, (and glad for petite lines of clothes) sometimes dresses in this country that are not "petite" look enormous on the rack. (I don't remember it being so bad in Britain)! I think some clothing companies in the past have done a half way decent job of offering some range in fit, e.g. waist to hip differences - full, narrow, etc. for pants and skirts, but generally I find off the rack clothes I see on people who are a little disproportionate (especially heavier folk) fit badly. Such things make me very glad that that I know how to sew and alter my own stuff. :-) With the Simplicity et al patterns, I know pretty well now how to accomodate for my lack of inches and pear shape, even if they use models like the girl mentioned above as a basis for the patterns! Elysant jennie chancey [41,726]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: Jennie Chancey Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 14:31:02 -0400 -Poster: Jennie Chancey Mary wrote: "If it [the La Mode Bagatelle pattern] had been set to the standard sloper, however, I could have easily altered the pattern to suit my own figure irregularities without completely redrafting it." This is exactly why I used the standardized sloper data when I made up my Regency Gown pattern. I kept hearing from intermediate seamstresses who wanted to be able to make a dress and rely on the measurements given on the pattern envelope -- as you can do with almost all Vogue, McCalls, etc. patterns. I have a "funny" figure myself, since I am very high waisted, but I can compensate for that without making the pattern impossible for every other figure shape. The LMB pattern, as nice as it is, is frustrating to use, since I always have to alter it drastically to fit properly. It runs too large, and the measurement chart doesn't accurately reflect the sizes drafted in the pattern. I still enjoy using it, but I've never met an intermediate seamstress who could tackle it without a lot of help. Though it is less accurate to use the modern standardized slopers, it is easy enough to custom-fit something on the person or the mannequin to compensate, and you can end up with a very nice, well-fitted end result. The gals who kept asking me to make my gown pattern available told me they wanted something that looked right but was comfortable to wear and easy to make. A lot of people who order "costume" patterns are in the same boat -- they don't necessarily want historical accuracy, but they do want to look "period" and not have to put up with a lot of hassle in the process. Interesting thread. I've enjoyed it! Cheers, Jennie -- Sense and Sensibility http://www.sensibility.com winsome clothing with an old-fashioned appeal leslie helms [13,727]CSuX:what margo should wear ?? Subject: H-COST: What Margo should wear ?? From: Leslie Helms Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:12:24 -0700 -Poster: Leslie Helms My first impulse was to recommend the "one tough costumer" shirt. I love that line! However, it is really best to wear something low-key and black or neutral. The reporter's attention is best directed to the creating process rather than to the wearing of clothes. I also find that creative people who fade back a bit are the ones whose work I can best appreciate. Just my opinion, but with some experience behind it, Leslie susan fatemi [56,728]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: Susan Fatemi Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 15:16:49 -0700 -Poster: Susan Fatemi I looked into publishing patterns last year. I wasn't able to do it at that time, but saved the info I received from various sources. The following message (edited) is from a woman in San Jose (somewhat local for me) and I thought it would be worth passing along. If I ever have the capital and decide to try it again, I would certainly give her a try. The Athena Blouse she mentions, in case you haven't seen it, is not only a great design, it's a very professionally produced patterns. None of those stupid mistakes and/or omissions that are too often typical of "independents". Susan Fatemi ------------------------------------------------------ from: Hi Susan, I co-own a business called Well Dressed Publications. My partner, Lynda Braden, and I, assist designers to self-publish their patterns. We provide a whole range of services -- we have a contact that can draft/grade the patterns for you and print them on vellum. We broker the print services with the pattern printing company. We provide a pattern test (i.e. do the notches match, are all of the pieces printed, do the seams match, etc.), we provide instruction writing and editing services, we provide graphic design and layout for the envelopes and instruction sheets, and we provide technical drawings for the instruction sheets. Additionally, I have my own business where I can help you market your patterns -- press releases, ad campaigns, brochures, web sites, etc. Our current client list includes Fred Bloebaum (we did everthing for her first pattern "The Athena Blouse"), Gale Grigg Hazen (we are redo her current patterns) and Sandy Scrivano (we are working with her to do suede and leather patterns). We have done some pieces of Lyla Messingers (LJ Designs) patterns as well. We quote based on the complexity of the pattern and the services you require. Regards, Cheryle Custer Well Dressed Publications 408-265-7074 -------------------------------------------- -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf gerekr@aol.com[30,729]CSuX:costuming the costumer Subject: Re: H-COST: Costuming the Costumer From: Gerekr@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 18:26:07 EDT -Poster: Gerekr@aol.com On 6/26/99 9:35 AM h-costume@indra.com wrote: >So should I wear something that says "artsy", such as my multi-print >Afghani nomad dress, or something plain and unobstrusive that doesn't clash >with the colorful costume I'll be posing with? Or should I wear my "One >Tough Costumer" T-shirt? > >Help! > >Margo Not "plain and unobtrusive" -- "elegantly understated" is what you meant to say?! I'd agree about the "something that won't clash with your colorful-costume", but you want something the quality and taste of which will be obviously apparent to the sophisticated reader, and subliminally apparent to the less worldly-- and that's the way YOU want to feel about what you're wearing, too! (Yeah, I recently read Mr New-Women's-Dress-for-Success, and his conclusions about how class signals in color and fabric affect the observers' perceptions, were thought-provoking, at the least... the story about the "identical" red interview jackets, eh?) Good luck! Patsy/Chimene henk t jong [61,730]CSuX:ivanhoe and rowena Subject: Re: H-COST: Ivanhoe and Rowena From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:33:33 +0200 -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hello List, Hope wrote: > Well, to get in the mood, the BBC's 300-minute film of > Ivanhoe released in 1997 is showing on Arts & Entertainment > network Saturday July 3 at 8 pm to midnight and Sunday July > 4 midnight to 4 am: > If you want to use this film as an example or source for a late 12th c event, be very critical: most arms and armour, saxons in general, assorted peasantry and outlaws, the jews, most heraldry and a lot of the norman costume were rubbish. > > Sir Walter Scott's classic tale of romance and adventure set > in the Middle Ages. After release from an Austrian prison in > 1192, the crusader Ivanhoe returns to England disguised as a > pilgrim. The usurper Prince John learns that his brother > King Richard was also released. Starring Steven Waddington > and Ciaran Hinds. (1997) > A blurb for a 19th c romantic novel which had little to do with real medieval occurences and attitudes. Some years ago I had stinging encounters with people on this list (and support, thanks!) about the suitability and need to remake this kind of stuff every few years. David wrote: > Perhaps this is not the proper place to do this, but I > cannot think of a > better. A friend of mine, a museum curator in Dover, > Delaware, is looking for > two people to portray Ivanhoe and Rowena for an event this > August. It is the > opening of a show of original illustrations to the book > created by Frank > Schoonover, one of the Brandywine School of Howard Pyle > (including N.C. Wyeth, > Maxfield Parrish, etc). It will not be a large event, but it > does pay > something. I don't know much more but, if anyone is > interested, and feel they > have the proper look and outfit (let's be honest here), I'd > be happy to put > them in touch with my friend. It's a pity our business is situated such a long way away: we could have rented you people in perfect replica's of late 12th c dress. Oh well, maybe we should branch out to the States... Cheers, Henk andrea gideon [10,731]CSuX:corset update Subject: H-COST: corset update From: "Andrea Gideon" Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 10:09:47 -0400 -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" Just wanted to share how I got around the back pain. I used two laces, one from the top down to the middle and one from the bottom up to the middle. I laced the top one tight enough to do the job and kept the bottom one a little lose. It's now quite comfortable. Andrea andrea gideon [7,732]CSuX:elizabethan merchant class Subject: H-COST: Elizabethan merchant class From: "Andrea Gideon" Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 10:11:45 -0400 -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" What kind of decoration can I use on middle or merchant class gowns? andrea tc carstensen [26,733]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: "TC Carstensen" Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 10:25:14 -0400 -Poster: "TC Carstensen" Lavolta Press wrote: >The larger pattern companies (Vogue, McCall's, etc.) actually have an agreement to >all use the same size chart, although they reserve the right to add as much "style >ease" to any pattern as they want. The "style ease" aspect gives me screaming fits. I think some of the pattern companies have been adding "style ease" to bring their sizes more in line with ready-to-wear, regardless of what their measurement chart says. On the last couple of mainstream patterns I've used, I chose the size closest to my measurements and still ended up having to cut the work in progress down by a couple of inches on styles that were supposed to be close-fitting. That'll teach me not to cut the pattern out without thoroughly investigating whether it's supposed measurements bear any resemblence to reality. I don't mind having to make minor adjustments to suit my own figure, but this business of practically having to redraft the whole pattern is for the birds. TC Carstensen andrea clef [45,734]CSuX:re. ivanhoe and rowena Subject: H-COST: Re. Ivanhoe and Rowena From: Andrea Clef Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:14:56 +0200 -Poster: Andrea Clef --------------49C5761DC5E4457640B4F1FE > It's a pity our business is situated such a long way away: we could have > rented you people in perfect replica's of late 12th c dress. Oh well, maybe > we should branch out to the States... > Hello Henk! Do you have pics of these garments up somewhere? Before you branch out to the States, you could also help with giving people here in Germany advice how to improve on their clothing for medieval markets ;-)! Many greetings, Diana --------------49C5761DC5E4457640B4F1FE

It's a pity our business is situated such a long way away: we could have
rented you people in perfect replica's of late 12th c dress. Oh well, maybe
we should branch out to the States...
Hello Henk!

Do you have pics of these garments up somewhere?
Before you branch out to the States, you could also help with giving people here in
Germany advice how to improve on their clothing for medieval markets ;-)!

Many greetings,
Diana
  --------------49C5761DC5E4457640B4F1FE-- margo anderson [26,735]CSuX:elizabethan merchant class Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan merchant class From: Margo Anderson Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 10:31:06 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson At 10:11 AM 6/27/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > >What kind of decoration can I use on middle or merchant class gowns? >andrea Andrea, try this link: http://www.c-rp.com/st.george/costume_guide/costume_guidelines.htm for an excellent discussion of the difference between "richness" and "decoration" in Elizabethan costume. These pages are the costume guidelines for the Guild of Saint George, the group that portrays the Court and their attendants at the Renaissance Pleasure Faires. My own favorite for middle and merchant class is pinkes and cuttes, which just don't get used enough, IMHO. Margo patricia ward [38,736]CSuX:ivanhoe and rowena Subject: Re: H-COST: Ivanhoe and Rowena From: Patricia Ward Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 15:26:44 -0400 -Poster: Patricia Ward I just want y'all to know that, being a homeschool mom, I read this information about Ivanhoe with a "teacher's eye" and am very grateful for this analysis. It just goes to show that you just never know who you are going to help out when you post information. We currently don't have cable but I will pass the info on to some of the other homeschool moms who do. Perhaps a unit study on anachronism would be in order. BTW, thanks to everyone who posted info about the Egyptian costumes. Patti Ward At 05:33 PM 6/25/99 +0200, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Henk 't Jong" > >Henk & Pauline 't Jong >tScapreel >Medieval Advisors >Dordrecht, Netherlands > >Hello List, > >Hope wrote: >> Well, to get in the mood, the BBC's 300-minute film of >> Ivanhoe released in 1997 is showing on Arts & Entertainment >> network Saturday July 3 at 8 pm to midnight and Sunday July >> 4 midnight to 4 am: >> >If you want to use this film as an example or source for a late 12th c >event, be very critical: most arms and armour, saxons in general, assorted >peasantry and outlaws, the jews, most heraldry and a lot of the norman >costume were rubbish. >> jpmcteer@aol.com[8,737]CSuX:victorian corset, laughing moon Subject: H-COST: Victorian Corset, Laughing Moon From: JPMcTeer@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 19:49:18 EDT -Poster: JPMcTeer@aol.com Thank you for those who answered my request for how to order the Laughing Moon pattern. Your quick response is greatly appreciated. Joan in Minneapolis chantal pecourt [17,738]CSuX:water stains and polyester Subject: H-COST: Water stains and polyester From: Chantal Pecourt Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 21:03:08 -0400 -Poster: Chantal Pecourt Hello I recently got an olive oil stain on my polyester with acetate lining dress. My mother insisted that I spot wash before I took it to the dry cleaners, saying that drycleaning would set the stain forever. I removed the oil stain but now have what look like water stains on the dress.. Is it ruined? Should I dip the whole thing in water now so it can be one big water stain? HELP! Thanks Chantal fopdejour1@aol.com[12,739]CSuX:costuming the costumer Subject: Re: H-COST: H-Cost: Costuming the Costumer From: Fopdejour1@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 21:56:16 EDT -Poster: Fopdejour1@aol.com Greetings, I would do the whole "black severe" thing. It works really well in photos, and still manages the " sophisticated artsy" effect. Perhaps black pants/skirt, black top, black shoes, severe hair do etc. I know that when I visit the designer boutiques in New York, most every one is dressed like that. Charles fooled you [77,740]CSuX:what makes a good pattern? Subject: Re: H-COST: What makes a good pattern? From: Fooled You Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 21:29:25 -0700 -Poster: Fooled You Nice paper, and detailed instructions would be my top 2. Margo Anderson wrote: > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > I'd like input from list members on what they would like to see in a high > end pattern, one that would be a complete costume package for a specific > period, retailing in the $40 range. > > Here's some of the things I think are important: > > THE PATTERN: > > Patterns for all garments neccesary to make a complete ensemble of the > period, plus accesories. > > accurate patterning, with all pieces and markings matching in all sizes. > > A large size range. 6-26? > > Clear, detailed instructions, with clear illustrations. > > Different construction options for ease vs historical acurracy. > > Fitting and alteration tips. > > Sturdy paper, not tissue > > DOCUMENTATION AND ADVICE > > solid historical documentation, citing primary documentation > > background > > suggestions and sketches for different syles to be obtained with pattern. > > extensive information on color, fabric, and trim selection > > multiple trim suggestions, with sketches > > (possibly) embroidery transfers > > bibliography > > Sources of supply for notions such as boning, etc. > > THE PACKAGE > > large envelope, with attractive illustrations > > yardages, specialty notions, etc, listed on envelope (this may not be > feasible on a pattern as extensive as this?) > > size range includes measurements for each size > > Documentation and Advice package in large format booklet, spiral or > otherwise bound. > > > MARKETING > > A Website with information about the pattern, including price, ordering > info, size range, and pictures of finished projects. > > So, what do you all think? Please let me know if you disagree with any of > this, or if there's anything you think I missed. > > Thanks! > > Margo > teddy1 [91,741]CSuX:what makes a good pattern? Subject: Re: H-COST: What makes a good pattern? From: teddy1 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:37:42 +0000 (GMT) -Poster: teddy1 Hi Margo >Subject: H-COST: What makes a good pattern? > > - -Poster: Margo Anderson > > I'd like input from list members on what they would like to see in a high > end pattern, one that would be a complete costume package for a specific > period, retailing in the $40 range. > > Here's some of the things I think are important: > > THE PATTERN: > > A large size range. 6-26? I'd suggest not tryung to follow "standardised" sizes - the commercial pattern companies seem to follow their own variations on the sizes/measurements anyway (a few years ago I found four differing sets of measurements that claimed to corresponsd to "standard" American clothing sizes) Better (in my opinion) to do a measurement chart on each envelope so people can pick the size that corresponds best to their own measurements. Tips on which measurements are the best starting point for which garments/style would be useful to if you have space for them (e.g. it's better to go by bust measurement when picking the pattern size for a Regency gown, than to start with the pattern in a size that fits your hips....) Also, have a mind to foreign customers. Even leaving aside the problems with "standard" sizes in the US, they don't actually correspond to the sizes in the UK.... I noticed recently while looking at the excellent La Mode Bagatelle Regency pattern that the person I was planning to make a dress for (normally a UK size 8 or 10) was smaller than the smallest size offered on the patterns. > Different construction options for ease vs historical acurracy. Very good point > Sturdy paper, not tissue Yes! > DOCUMENTATION AND ADVICE > extensive information on color, fabric, and trim selection another good one > Sources of supply for notions such as boning, etc. Only very useful for your local (US) market. If you're planning to market it outside the US, it may not be very useful. Also, you may have to spend a lot of time updating it as the sources listed change/go out of business/move etc....something I find very frustrating with lists of sources in books that are more than a few years old. > THE PACKAGE > yardages, specialty notions, etc, listed on envelope (this may not be > feasible on a pattern as extensive as this?) Possibly on the instructions inside than on the outside if the list is *that* extensive... > size range includes measurements for each size Absolutely! > Documentation and Advice package in large format booklet, spiral or > otherwise bound. Every little bit helps Best of luck with the project, I *know* you'll let the list know when your products are available. Teddy (Trustworthy Evil-Bunny of Destiny, part-time Knave and Creature of air and darkness, apparently!) andrea gideon [9,742]CSuX:elizabethan, again Subject: H-COST: Elizabethan, again From: "Andrea Gideon" Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:12:07 -0400 -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" I guess I should have been more specific. Would it be appropriate to have embriodered gaurds, like the Elanora of Toledo gown, on a linen merchant class gown? Andrea aleed [33,743]CSuX:elizabethan, again Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan, again From: aleed Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 08:37:55 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: aleed Decoration for merchant or "upper middle-class" folk in Elizabethan england was similar to the nobility's in style; it differed more in materials and cost than in general type. Embroidery in a wool or wool-silk was used rather than gold or silver thread. "Guards" became more and more of a servant/lowerclass clothing iten in the last decades of the 16th century,and were on the whole less elaborately embroidered than the guards found on upper-class gowns. So a merchant class version of the Eleanora of Toledo gown could certainly be embroidered; but not with a metallic thread, and the pattern would perhaps be simpler in nature. Couched cord could be used instead. Good luck, Drea On Mon, 28 Jun 1999, Andrea Gideon wrote: > > -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > > I guess I should have been more specific. Would it be appropriate to have > embriodered gaurds, like the Elanora of Toledo gown, on a linen merchant > class gown? > Andrea > > hope h. dunlap [25,744]CSuX:cheap 120" muslin Subject: H-COST: Cheap 120" muslin From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:00:31 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Wal-Mart carries bleached white and unbleached 120" muslin for $6.23 per yard. Saw it there yesterday. If you can use a 50% poly/50% cotton 120" muslin, bleached or unbleached, Gohn Brothers, Box 111, Middlebury, Indiana 46540-0111 carries it for $5.49. This is a mail order Amish supply company, and their prices for most fabrics meet or beat Wal-Mart (i.e. very inexpensive), though it doesn't seem to be reflected in this particular price. Their phone number is (219) 825-2400. Buying 50 yards seems like a wholesale order to me. Does that mean 50% off the prices above would be standard wholesale? 120" muslin is a standard size for curtains and drapes, so try a small curtain and drape manufacturer in your area perhaps for the best deal. Boston's fabric district is also a possible source for discount or wholesale fabric, around and throughout Chinatown. Hope H. Dunlap margo anderson [27,745]CSuX:elizabethan, again Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan, again From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 06:41:37 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson At 07:12 AM 6/28/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > >I guess I should have been more specific. Would it be appropriate to have >embriodered gaurds, like the Elanora of Toledo gown, on a linen merchant >class gown? Well, we went through the whole discussion about whether linen was appropriate last year (I saved the posts, and could copy them to you if you want.) The conclusion seemed to be that, while we don't have any documentation for linen gowns, it's a reasonable compromise. I think my black linen looks great, and it's ceratainly the most comfortable upper class costume I've ever worn. As for the embroidery, I think that if you don't use "rich" materials such as metallic threads, and if your merchant character is sufficiently wealthy enoough to either have the leisure time to embroider that much or the cash to pay someone else to, it would be just fine, and a welcome change from the usual miles-of-trim look. Margo megan irvine [25,746]CSuX:victorian corset, laughing moon Subject: Re: H-COST: Victorian Corset, Laughing Moon From: Megan Irvine Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:58:06 -0400 -Poster: Megan Irvine Margo Anderson wrote: > > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > >And, I recommend the pattern too. It was my first Victorian corset and I > >thought the instructions were very clear. The resulting product looks > >really good too. > > Has anyone tried it in the larger sizes? It goes up to 26, yipee! It's a > great price, too: camisole, drawers, and corset for $12! I made it in size 20 and it looks very flattering. I made a muslin first and had to shorten it because I am petite, and I took an inch off the center back to get more of gap for lacing. It fits me in the bust, is tight in the waist, and just a little tight in the hips. I think it turned out great! -- Megan Irvine Course Developer, Educational Services (412) 201-3520, Rm. 1741 christopher ballis [50,747]CSuX:costume ball australia Subject: H-COST: Costume Ball Australia From: "Christopher Ballis" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 01:07:55 +1000 -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" Tickets for the Fourth Annual Costumers Ball of the Australian Costumers' Guild are not on sale. The ball includes a four course silver service dinner, dancing, costume displays, hall costume awards, more fun than you can poke a darning needle at, and the feature event of the evening, the costume parade. Fourth Annual Costumers' Ball, Melbourne Convention Centre, Spencer Street, Melbourne, Saturday, 28 August, 1999 $65 ($55 members of the International Costumers' Guild) Please note, prices are in Australian dollars) Further information and bookings: The Australian Costumers' Guild, PO Box 322, Bentleigh, 3204 Australia +3 9754 2240 stilskin@netspace.net.au Pre-registration for the costume parade is essential; for an entry form, stage map and rules, contact the Australian Costumers' Guild. Costume parade judges include: Katherine Ashton, former wardrobe mistress, Crawfords Australia, freelance TV and film designer, presently with JC Westend, Melbourne; Debbie Thielle, cutter, Angels & Bermans, London; And a special guest judge from one of Australia's leading production houses. Workmanship judging will be by Michael F Kyne, award winning milliner and costume designer, former president of the Milliners' Society. Please thank our sponsors: AV-FX; Backstage Make Up; Charley Weaver; Lincraft; Long Hair Salon; Mortisha's; 1928 Jewelry Co. penny ladnier [34,748]CSuX:vintage publications Subject: H-COST: Vintage Publications From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:47:12 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" We are tickled to death to announce a new section to our Online Library... Vintage Publications. This site contains seven online fashion publications for you to research and study. There is just about any area of costume to study on the site, design, trends, patterns, hairstyles, millinery, color, womenswear, menswear, childrenswear, dyeing, embroidery patterns, crochet patterns, knitting patterns, bridal gowns, accessories, and mourning, (you name it you will probably find it). 92 webpages and 167 images of costume! Currently the Vintage Publications holds articles from: Milanese Tailor's Handbook, c. 1580 Ladies Indispensable Assistant, 1852 Frank Leslie's Lady's Magazine and Gazette of Fashion, April 1864 Ladies Home Journal, Sept. 1893 Ladies Home Journal, March 1894 Ladies Home Journal, June 1895 McCall's Magazine, May 1908 Many thanks to the people who have made this possible by providing the Aleed, Mickey Buell, and me, Penny. A special thanks to Mickey who is my intern who knew how to program but little about fashion. She asked me to just not send her any more crochet patterns to program! LOL!!! Enjoy, Read, and Learn! Later...Penny Ladnier http://www.costumegallery.com annbwass@aol.com[13,749]CSuX:the pattern biz Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: The Pattern Biz From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:56:50 EDT -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com Women's clothing sizes are NOT standardized--that's why buying ready-to-wear is such a crap shoot. (Men's sizes are, however.) The "big three" pattern companies have standardized sizes, but each uses a slightly different basic sloper, so the fit is not precisely the same. The basic measurements are available in all catalogues, sewing books, and, I think, websites, although you might have to search a little more for the more arcane measurements, like underarm length. Ann Wass annbwass@aol.com[9,750]CSuX:library Subject: Re: H-COST: library From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 14:04:00 EDT -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com I've used Kohler as one source for early 19th century. It's okay, and has things I've not seen anywhere else. Certainly it's not the greatest book, but it is also CHEAP, so I recommend it as one of many books to have in your own personal library. Ann Wass henk t jong [37,751]CSuX:re. ivanhoe and rowena Subject: Re: H-COST: Re. Ivanhoe and Rowena From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 19:36:47 +0200 -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hello Diana, You asked: Do you have pics of these garments up somewhere? I'm afraid I'mm still too busy to finish our internetsite; in the near future I'll have to ask somebody to do it for us. I don't seem to be able to find the time... Before you branch out to the States, you could also help with giving people here in Germany advice how to improve on their clothing for medieval markets ;-)! I could, but our costume brochure should then be translated into German: a lot of work! Anyway, I'll have to do some revising on it, because since the last three years I again learned a lot about 13th c costume. The book by Ulrich Lehnart (Kleidung und Waffen, etc.) is rather good; better than any I have seen so far. It only gives information on costume for the nobility and knights, though. Perhaps I should do one for the common people. But where will I get the time? Many greetings to you Henk leif drews [22,752]CSuX:stays Subject: H-COST: stays From: leif drews Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:43:31 +0200 -Poster: leif drews I also have noticed that some stays have bias tape on the seams also. Why havent they just made ordinary seams? Is it as a kind of decoration? Bjarne. -- Leif Drews Åboulevard 5, 3 th 1635 København V Bjarne Drews Åboulevard 5,3.th 1635 København V tlf. 35 37 13 70 rio@austin.rr.com (strangegirl)[42,753]CSuX:stays Subject: Re: H-COST: stays From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:08:56 GMT -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:43:31 +0200, you wrote: >I also have noticed that some stays have bias tape on the seams also. >Why havent they just made ordinary seams? Is it as a kind of decoration? What period are you referring to? Many modern stays have reinforced casings on the outside of the garment which hold the bones and are considered decorative. Some of these cover seams, but many do not. They can also be seen on late 19th and early 20th century sport corsets. From what I can tell these were used in place of the more usual integral casings which are not possible in a corset which has one layer of fabric for health reasons (mostly heat/breathability). Nearly *all* other examples of corsets that I have seen from this period have integral (channels sewn thru several layers of fabric that make up the corset) rather than applied casings. These may be what you are referring to. It was a common practice to stitch a strip of thin (1/8-1/4 inch wide) braid over the seamlines of 17th and 18th century corsets, possibly to reinforce or simply to protect the seaming stitches. On the more opulent examples, these are quite decorative, but they are seen also on more humbe examples and so may be seen to be possibly functional. These may also be what you are referring to. Which do you mean? Margery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~There is no spoon~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ {*to reply take "spambegone" from my reply-to address*} pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[17,754]CSuX:wholesale muslin Subject: H-COST: wholesale muslin From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:34:39 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> In general, 50 yards would *not* be wholesale quantity. When I was running a costume shop, I bought muslin by the case, to get prices like $1.50 per yard, but that meant buying 12 bolts, of 100 yards each. Sometimes they took pity on me and sold me half a case instead. Deborah [24,755]CSuX:stays Subject: Re: H-COST: stays From: Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 17:51:29 -0000 -Poster: >I also have noticed that some stays have bias tape on the seams also. >Why havent they just made ordinary seams? Is it as a kind of decoration? I've studied 18th century stays. I haven't seen bias tape, instead it's a regular woven tape that covers the vertical seams. The tape can be plain & white, and I've also seen colors. Sometimes the tape is also applied as a decoration on the front of the stays in a criss-cross or ladder pattern. It looks sort of like lacing, even though the stays that have this lace only in the back. Stays are made of several panels, and the panels are whipstitched together with heavy thread. Perhaps the reason for the tape over the seams is to hide the stitching. The whipstitched vertical seams may have been a way to make the stays easy to alter. Another theory is that the panels would have been made up ahead of time, and then assembled for each particular client. In either case, this construction technique is very consistent. -Carol Kocian albertcat@aol.com[17,756]CSuX:stays Subject: Re: H-COST: stays From: AlbertCat@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 19:03:23 EDT -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 6/28/99 4:15:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rio@austin.rr.com writes: << Many modern stays have reinforced casings on the outside of the garment which hold the bones and are considered decorative. >> Also [this goes for 19th century stays too] The best [only?] way to get a straight bone on a curved seam is to sew the seam up a put the casing for the bone over it...straddling the curved seam. This can be done on the inside or decoratively on the outside. Also, very early on, it was seen that the seams of the corset added a lovely visual touch to the garment as they curved around & with the rigid shape. Why not show 'em off and reinforce them at the same time? penny ladnier [26,757]CSuX:stays Subject: Re: H-COST: stays From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 19:36:42 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" Some of the corsets in the Valentine Museum have some very lovely embroidery on the tips of the stay casings. The embroidery was on the inside and I guess is there to reinforce the bottom of each casing. I recall this black 1890s corset with burnt orange embroidery (very pretty). My question about stays... I keep reading that during this or that fashion period, tight lacing was not fashionable as in the past. I have read articles referring to this in 1864, 1895, and 1908. The articles speak of "the ill effects" but never state what these effects were. When was tight lacing fashionable (dates) and what were the ill effects? Later...Penny http://www.costumegallery.com >Also [this goes for 19th century stays too] The best [only?] way to get a >straight bone on a curved seam is to sew the seam up a put the casing for the >bone over it...straddling the curved seam. This can be done on the inside or >decoratively on the outside. margo anderson [16,758]CSuX:stays Subject: Re: H-COST: stays From: Margo Anderson Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 17:06:38 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson At 07:36 PM 6/28/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" > >Some of the corsets in the Valentine Museum have some very lovely embroidery >on the tips of the stay casings. The embroidery was on the inside and I >guess is there to reinforce the bottom of each casing. Is this embroidery what is meant by "fanning the bones"? Margo hope h. dunlap [69,759]CSuX:vintage publications Subject: H-COST: Vintage Publications From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:32:00 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Penny, Could you give us a URL. I searched your site a little for the Milanese Tailor's Album, but couldn't find it. Thanks! I have been looking forward to it for many months now! Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Penny Ladnier -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" We are tickled to death to announce a new section to our Online Library... Vintage Publications. This site contains seven online fashion publications for you to research and study. There is just about any area of costume to study on the site, design, trends, patterns, hairstyles, millinery, color, womenswear, menswear, childrenswear, dyeing, embroidery patterns, crochet patterns, knitting patterns, bridal gowns, accessories, and mourning, (you name it you will probably find it). 92 webpages and 167 images of costume! Currently the Vintage Publications holds articles from: Milanese Tailor's Handbook, c. 1580 Ladies Indispensable Assistant, 1852 Frank Leslie's Lady's Magazine and Gazette of Fashion, April 1864 Ladies Home Journal, Sept. 1893 Ladies Home Journal, March 1894 Ladies Home Journal, June 1895 McCall's Magazine, May 1908 Many thanks to the people who have made this possible by providing the people have been behind the scenes programming the pages, Kelly Rinne, Drea Aleed, Mickey Buell, and me, Penny. A special thanks to Mickey who is my intern who knew how to program but little about fashion. She asked me to just not send her any more crochet patterns to program! LOL!!! Enjoy, Read, and Learn! Later...Penny Ladnier http://www.costumegallery.com _____ majordomo@indra.com penny ladnier [11,760]CSuX:vintage publications url Subject: H-COST: Vintage Publications URL From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:16:47 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" Sorry, I was rushing out the house and hit the send button before providing the URL for Vintage Publications, http://www.costumegallery.com/Vintage/Publications.htm Later...Penny gerekr@aol.com[27,761]CSuX:janet arnold s eliz. & jacobian shirt article Subject: Re: Re: H-COST: Janet Arnold's Eliz. & Jacobian Shirt Article From: Gerekr@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 17:00:19 EDT -Poster: Gerekr@aol.com On 6/10/99 5:04 PM h-costume@indra.com wrote: >-Poster: "Franchesca Havas" > >Here are some leads for finding the article for your own library addition of >the articles: > >http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/cost-contents.html >http://user.aol.com/gerekr/arnold.html >http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/smock-info.html >http://www.northernlight.com/barnesandnoble/search.html > >Sincerely, >F. Havas >Dallas, Texas Sorry I'm so long in mentioning this but the second URL should be: http://users.aol.com/gerekr/arnold.html although http://members.aol.com/gerekr/arnold.html is more reliable. Gary RD Walker gerekr@aol.co http://members.aol.com/gerekr/costume.html leif drews [27,762]CSuX:18th.c.stays Subject: H-COST: 18th.c.stays From: leif drews Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:30:18 +0200 -Poster: leif drews I am making the stays for my robe a l'anglaise, and it is very difficult to put bias tape to the tabs at the corset. The narrow edges teases me badly. Especially the space between two tabs. Are there anybody with some good tips for doing that? I dont want to make buttonholestitches, because i want it as acurate as posible. Bjarne Drews -- Leif Drews Åboulevard 5, 3 th 1635 København V Bjarne Drews Åboulevard 5,3.th 1635 København V tlf. 35 37 13 70 rio@austin.rr.com (strangegirl)[41,763]CSuX:library Subject: Re: H-COST: library From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 19:09:11 GMT -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 14:04:00 EDT, you wrote: > >-Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com > >I've used Kohler as one source for early 19th century. It's okay, and has >things I've not seen anywhere else. There are two reasons that there would be things in Kohler that you have not seen anywhere else: 1) The garments/cut of the garments was wholly conjectural (Kohler going on what he had and trying to give a complete resource)based on paintings/statues/tapestries/other art. Kohler also did not seem to pick up that many of the garments seen in allegories as fanciful or exaggerated versions of then-current dress were imaginary. 2) He did have access to original garments which were destroyed by theatre use (which might include horrible alterations before Kohler got them) and possibly (in the cases of a few cited museum pieces seen nowhere else and not since WW2 - this I may be wrong about, but I think my mom pointed one or two out to me when she was studying modern German history for a writing project - any confirmations?) lost in the wars. Certainly none of the theatre 'costume' historical garments were conserved that I have been able to find. This is just my opinion, and cannot be quantified. However, if anyone knows of any theatre costume collection garments studied by Kohler (and possibly photographed for his book) that have survived in a museum or collection, I would be curious to see what sort of shape they are in, what sort of alterations they have gone through, etc. Margery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~There is no spoon~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ {*to reply take "spambegone" from my reply-to address*} andrea clef [79,764]CSuX:ivanhoe and rowena Subject: H-COST: Re:Ivanhoe and Rowena From: Andrea Clef Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 18:07:54 +0200 -Poster: Andrea Clef --------------D3CEA2ECC31C4D66927AAAE2 > I could, but our costume brochure should then be translated into German: a > lot of work! Anyway, I'll have to do some revising on it, because since the > last three years I again learned a lot about 13th c costume. > Do you also have an English version of your brochure?How many pages does it have? If you have it in English and it doesn´t consist of hundreds of pages, I could try an amateur translation into German ;-), so it could be made available to some of the German groups... > The book by Ulrich Lehnart (Kleidung und Waffen, etc.) is rather good; > better than any I have seen so far. It only gives information on costume > for the nobility and knights, though. Perhaps I should do one for the > common people. But where will I get the time? > Yes, I also thought that this book is better than most others, I recommended it hereon the list some months ago. It`s only unfortunate that it`s only available in German so far. I`m more interested in the female clothing and the pics are good but the descriptions aim more at male dress, that`s one disadvantage to me... I´m still waiting for the next two books from this author, about the early and late medieval periods. Many greetings, Diana --------------D3CEA2ECC31C4D66927AAAE2

I could, but our costume brochure should then be translated into German: a
lot of work! Anyway, I'll have to do some revising on it, because since the
last three years I again learned a lot about 13th c costume.
Do you also have an English version of your brochure?How many pages does it have?
If you have it in English and it doesn´t consist of hundreds of pages, I could try an
amateur translation into German ;-), so it could be made available to some of the
German groups...
The book by Ulrich Lehnart (Kleidung und Waffen, etc.) is rather good;
better than any I have seen so far. It only gives information on costume
for the nobility and knights, though. Perhaps I should do one for the
common people. But where will I get the time?
Yes, I also thought that this book is better than most others, I recommended it hereon the list some months ago.
It`s only unfortunate that it`s only available in German so far.
I`m more interested in the female clothing and the pics are good but the descriptions
aim more at male dress, that`s one disadvantage to me...
I´m still waiting for the next two books from this author, about the early and late
medieval periods.

Many greetings,
Diana
 

  --------------D3CEA2ECC31C4D66927AAAE2-- susan carroll-clark [64,765]CSuX:ivanhoe and rowena Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Ivanhoe and Rowena From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:11:13 -0400 -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A4_01BEC1AA.C0869880 Greetings! The book by Ulrich Lehnart (Kleidung und Waffen, etc.) is rather good; better than any I have seen so far. It only gives information on costume for the nobility and knights, though. Perhaps I should do one for the common people. But where will I get the time? Yes, I also thought that this book is better than most others, I = recommended it hereon the list some months ago.=20 =20 Does anyone know of a book dealer from whom I might order this = particular book (e.g. one which specializes in German books, or a German = dealer)? My German is rusty, but for a good book, I'd be willing to = give it a whirl. Susan Carroll-Clark ------=_NextPart_000_00A4_01BEC1AA.C0869880

 
Greetings!
The book by Ulrich Lehnart (Kleidung =
und Waffen, etc.) is rather good;
better than any I have seen so far. It only gives information on costume
for the nobility and knights, though. Perhaps I should do one for the
common people. But where will I get the time?
Yes, I = also=20 thought that this book is better than most others, I recommended it = hereon=20 the list some months ago.
Does anyone know of a book = dealer from=20 whom I might order this particular book (e.g. one which specializes = in=20 German books, or a German dealer)?  My German is rusty, but for = a good=20 book, I'd be willing to give it a whirl. Susan=20 Carroll-Clark ------=_NextPart_000_00A4_01BEC1AA.C0869880-- rio@austin.rr.com (strangegirl)[50,766]CSuX:18th.c.stays Subject: Re: H-COST: 18th.c.stays From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 01:21:27 GMT -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:30:18 +0200, you wrote: > >I am making the stays for my robe a l'anglaise, and it is very difficult >to put bias tape to the tabs at the corset. The narrow edges teases me >badly. Especially the space between two tabs. Are there anybody with >some >good tips for doing that? >I dont want to make buttonholestitches, because i want it as acurate as >posible. >Bjarne Drews Pin it in place and then handstitch the bias tape down. If the bias tape is especially stiff, I would steam press it (use a damp press cloth to prevent the boning from marking the outer fabric and the bias tape) carefully. The heat and steam will help it shape to the edge of the stay. You will want to carefully miter the bias tape between the tabs so it looks sort of like this (This may come out badly, I apologise): ____ |\_/| |||| |||| |||| |||| _||||_ __/ \__ THis *can* be done by machine sewing, with quite a bit of swearing and fighting and unpicking of errors and resewing, but is much less of a headache if done by hand. I find that it helps to tack or baste the corners of each mitered joint down before trying to hand sew the entire thing. You can pin baste the tape everywhre else with some success, but at the joins between tabs pins tend to work their way loose. Good luck! Margery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~There is no spoon~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ {*to reply take "spambegone" from my reply-to address*} annbwass@aol.com[11,767]CSuX:library Subject: Re: H-COST: library From: AnnBWass@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:26:04 EDT -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com Well, you may be right about Kohler's using theatrical garments, but the one early 19th century dress, which has the armholes cut so far towards the back, certainly looks authentic to me, but, of course, the quality of the photos isn't good. Anyway, my comment that the book is worth adding to one's library, given its price, still stands. Ann Wass rio@austin.rr.com (strangegirl)[40,768]CSuX:library Subject: Re: H-COST: library From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 01:34:44 GMT -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:26:04 EDT, you wrote: > >Well, you may be right about Kohler's using theatrical garments, but the one >early 19th century dress, which has the armholes cut so far towards the back, >certainly looks authentic to me, but, of course, the quality of the photos >isn't good. >Anyway, my comment that the book is worth adding to one's library, given its >price, still stands. I agree with the assesment. it is still one of my staples, as teh text is good (Kohler was a decent scholar, after all). I feel I should clarify what I meant by theatrical garments, however. He mentions in the acknowledgements (or it is mentioned in the introduction written by his assistant) that the original garments came from several private/musem collections and also from theatre companies. The garments in question were not 'costumes' until acquired by the theatre companies for that purpose, just old clothes. This is a very old practice and is how most theatre companies got their costumes for at least 300 years. They *are* original pieces, but may have been altered so many times for theatrical use that they have a non-period cut by the time they are shown in the book. Apologies for not being more precise :) Margery ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~There is no spoon~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ {*to reply take "spambegone" from my reply-to address*} susan carroll-clark [18,769]CSuX:library Subject: Re: H-COST: library From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:49:05 -0400 -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! >I agree with the assesment. it is still one of my staples, as teh text >is good (Kohler was a decent scholar, after all). As I mentioned before, I think this depends on which period you're buying it for. For the medieval period, the quality of the text ranges from OK to downright awful. (Still, I haven't gotten rid of my copy, since, as I noted earlier, there are some useful things there...) Susan Carroll-Clark j,k,s&a baird [34,770]CSuX:wholesale muslin Subject: H-COST: wholesale muslin From: "J,K,S&A Baird" Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 23:10:16 -0500 -Poster: "J,K,S&A Baird" I used to have a fabric store, so I know a bit about buying wholesale. If you have a business and a retail tax number, you can buy fabric and trims from a distributor. A distributor is like a big warehouse full of fabric, etc. from many manufacturers. You have to buy in whole bolts (15-50 yards), or in boxes or dozens, whatever, for notions. But the over-all minimum purchase is not very high. You can buy just one bolt of fabric. For a small business, such as costuming, this is ideal. Distributors are open 5 days a week, and there are lots of them all around the country. However, their prices are a bit higher than buying direct from the manufacturer. Well, they need to get a profit, too. If you will be buying enough quantity to meet the minimums of a manufacturer, you can get a bit better price. Problem is, you can't buy just one or two bolts. And to order, you need to make contact, which means having their sales rep call on you, or finding their booth at a trade show. They are not eager to deal with small-time customers, and may not want to deal with you if you don't have a store front. For most of us, the best option for cheap fabric is a fabric outlet. Around here we have Mill End Textiles. in Minneapolis there is a very large place, SR Harris Fabric Outlet. These places buy left overs from various sources at rock bottom prices. You can't special order anything, what you see is what you get. The help is not usually knowledgable about the fabric, and it may be mislabeled. But if you know what you're looking at, you can get some very good buys. Kim gerekr@aol.com[108,771]CSuX:what inspired h .j. ford? Subject: Re: H-COST: What inspired H .J. Ford? From: Gerekr@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 00:49:35 EDT -Poster: Gerekr@aol.com When the History of Children's Illustrators that I was counting on was no help, I collected a couple of the Fairy Books and my initial impression was... typical Victorian medievalism; lots of feminine drapery, but the men's stuff looks pretty good. So then I poked around the Internet for a few minutes and found about 3 mentions of Henry Justice Ford. He's described as a late "Victorian fairy painter", basically with Pre-Raphaelite influences. (the VFPs' heyday was apparently ca. 1830's, the Pre-Rs more like 1880s) I found two principal sites, one from an unpublished dissertation by an art professor; pretty good stuff, LOTS of background, Ford stuff is in the last section... >http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/hypertext/landow/victorian/art/fairy/ras1.h tm l > >Art to Enchant: The Development of Victorian Fairy Painting -- This catalogue essay is >partially based upon my unpublished dissertation, "Art to Enchant: A Critical Study of Early >Victorian Fairy Painting and Illustration," Brown University, 1988, by Richard A. Schindler, >Associate Professor of Art Allegheny College >"Interest in fairy subject matter did not die with the end of the Victorian era. Fairy >paintings and illustrations appeared regularly in British exhibitions, magazines, and books >well into the twentieth century. Artists such as Arthur Rackham (1867-1939) and Edmund Dulac >(1882-1953) revitalized the illustrative tradition with their conceptions of fairies as >either fantastic grotesqueries or ethereal beauties. John Dixon Batten (1860-1932) and >Henry Justice Ford (1860-1941), illustrated important fairy-tale collections like those of >Andrew Lang, carrying on the tradition of Pre-Raphaelitism and the Aesthetic Movement." the other is from an English fan, Bob Speel; the following are from his site, and from a third site that uses Speel as his main reference. This and the Professor do seem to agree, 8-). >Henry Justice Ford, the illustrator, was best known for his illustrations of Andrew Lang's >popular fairy books. He was born in London, and studied at the Slade and at Hubert von >Herkomer's Bushey School of Art. He was a friend of Burne-Jones, and there is a Pre- >Raphaelitism in his illustrations, especially those of girls, and in his careful studies of >drapery. He was also influenced by Walter Crane. > >As well as the Fairy Books, Ford illustrated quite widely in the magazines of the day, and >also worked as a painter and in pastel, though I have not seen any of his work in this >medium. > http://www.speel.demon.co.uk/artists/hjford.htm#beginning -- Bob Speel > >Several illustrators, such as Henry Justice Ford (who illustrated the Andrew Lang 'Fairy >books') and Evelyn Paul were drawing in the Pre-Raphaelite style well past the turn of the >century. > http://www.speel.demon.co.uk/other/prb.htm -- Bob Speel > http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/classic/art.html Have fun, 8-). Patsy/Chimene >-----Original Message----- >Date: 06/18 3:15 AM >From: alwen@i2k.com (Lynn Carpenter) > >-Poster: Lynn Carpenter > >As a Christmas present a couple of years ago, my husband bought me the >entire Andrew Land "Fairy Book" series: The Red Fairy Book, The Grey Fairy >Book, et cetera, collected fairy tales from different countries. These >books were originally published around 1900. They were illustrated by H. >J. Ford. > >One of the things that I always liked about them, and probably one of the >things that spurred my interest in the SCA, was the beautiful dresses the >princesses and heroines are wearing in the illustrations. > >Does anyone else have these books, who can help me identify what inspired >H. J. Ford? What time period, countries, and so on, dresses like this >might have come from? > >Or were they entirely out of his (her?) imagination? If so, I think I >want to go buy my clothes there! > >Lynn franchesca havas [10,772]CSuX:regency or victorian groups Subject: H-COST: Regency or Victorian Groups From: "Franchesca Havas" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 00:02:51 -0500 -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" Is there a group of either or both in Houston? Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas christopher ballis [55,773]CSuX:costume ball australia Subject: Re: H-COST: Costume Ball Australia From: "Christopher Ballis" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:20:41 +1000 -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" Aww...okay, okay, okay...it should read are NOW on sale...I hate my fingers sometimes > Tickets for the Fourth Annual Costumers Ball of the Australian Costumers' > Guild are not on sale. > > The ball includes a four course silver service dinner, dancing, costume > displays, hall costume awards, more fun than you can poke a darning needle > at, and the feature event of the evening, the costume parade. > > Fourth Annual Costumers' Ball, > Melbourne Convention Centre, > Spencer Street, Melbourne, > Saturday, 28 August, 1999 > > $65 ($55 members of the International Costumers' Guild) > Please note, prices are in Australian dollars) > > Further information and bookings: > > The Australian Costumers' Guild, > PO Box 322, > Bentleigh, 3204 > Australia > > +3 9754 2240 > stilskin@netspace.net.au > > Pre-registration for the costume parade is essential; for an entry form, > stage map and rules, contact the Australian Costumers' Guild. > > Costume parade judges include: > > Katherine Ashton, former wardrobe mistress, Crawfords Australia, freelance > TV and film designer, presently with JC Westend, Melbourne; > > Debbie Thielle, cutter, Angels & Bermans, London; > > And a special guest judge from one of Australia's leading production > houses. > > Workmanship judging will be by Michael F Kyne, award winning milliner and > costume designer, former president of the Milliners' Society. > > Please thank our sponsors: > > AV-FX; Backstage Make Up; Charley Weaver; Lincraft; Long Hair Salon; > Mortisha's; 1928 Jewelry Co. > leif drews [33,774]CSuX:18th.century stays Subject: H-COST: 18th.century stays From: leif drews Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:52:22 +0200 -Poster: leif drews To all that answered my questions! It really sems that i have come to the right place, what a joy and pleasure to be in the company of skilled knowledge. Thankyou very much for your answers, you dont know how happy you have made me, now i can do it!!! Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou............ I almost got insane by the problem, i hate, when something is teasing me, and i dont give up, before i have succeded............. The person, who drawed the tabs with the sign, you are creative, arent you, it was exatly this way i wanted the tape edges to look like........ What a pleasure, you really made my day!!!!!! Bjarne Drews. -- Leif Drews Åboulevard 5, 3 th 1635 København V Bjarne Drews Åboulevard 5,3.th 1635 København V tlf. 35 37 13 70 penny ladnier [11,775]CSuX:url Subject: H-COST: URL From: "Penny Ladnier" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 07:46:03 -0400 -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" I am sorry, I hit the send button to soon the first time. I sent another message yesterday, but it wasn't posted. Vintage Publications http://www.costumegallery.com/Vintage/Publications.htm Later...Penny http://www.costumegallery.com katy bishop [29,776]CSuX:wholesale muslin Subject: Re: H-COST: wholesale muslin From: Katy Bishop Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:49:47 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: Katy Bishop On Mon, 28 Jun 1999, Deborah Pulliam wrote: > >-Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) > ><that mean 50% off the prices above would be standard >wholesale? >> > >In general, 50 yards would *not* be wholesale quantity. When I was running >a costume shop, I bought muslin by the case, to get prices like $1.50 per >yard, but that meant buying 12 bolts, of 100 yards each. Sometimes they >took pity on me and sold me half a case instead. > I get my muslin from a wholesale quilt supplier, full bolts(15-30yds), cut fee of $1.50 for half bolts. White cotton muslin is less than $1.50/yd. Have to be a business to purchase but I did not need to give my ID #, so letterhead or business card is all they need to start an account. This is in MA, I can give the info. if anyone is interested. I just ordered 90" cotton sheeting, white, but forgot to ask the price per yard. Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@shore.net Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. schmitt100@aol.com[28,777]CSuX:alter years pattern Subject: H-COST: alter years pattern From: Schmitt100@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:52:16 EDT -Poster: Schmitt100@aol.com I need some help/advice on two alter years patterns - Easy Renn. Corset and Easy Renn. Bodice. On both patterns they tell you to take your underarm to waist measurement and subtract 2 1/2 - 3 inches, and then compare that measurement to the pattern'a underarm measurement - and then shorten/lengthen as necessary. My question: my underarm measurement (as far as I can tell) is 9". If I subtract 3" for the corset, that puts me to 6". The pattern's measurement is 9". So, am I correct in that I have to shorten the corset by 3"? This just seems like a lot to me. (No, I haven't tried mocking it up yet, this is my first shot at it, and I didn't want to be completely frustrated at midnight tonight trying to get this all together. Also, I need to order my stays today so I can have them this week.) Thanks for all your help! ********************** Rebecca Schmitt So many books, so little time We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking as we used when we created them. -Albert Einstein schmitt100@aol.com ********************** ella lynoure rajamaki [17,778]CSuX:a book about history of beauty? Subject: H-COST: A book about history of beauty? From: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 18:15:45 +2 -Poster: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" Greetings all, could anyone recommond me a book about history of beauty ideals? The longer period of time and the more cultures to book covers, the better, even if many of them wre just meantioned briefly. Thanks, -- -----------------------------* lynoure@tuug.org * Ella Lynoure Rajamaki--------* http://www.tuug.org/~lynoure * stitchwitch [25,779]CSuX:a book about history of beauty? Subject: Re: H-COST: A book about history of beauty? From: "StitchWitch" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:16:11 PDT -Poster: "StitchWitch" > could anyone recommond me a book about history of beauty ideals? > The longer period of time and the more cultures to book covers, the > better, even if many of them wre just meantioned briefly. You might try 'The History of Vanity', author I have forgotten and it's packed, but oh well. It is a very interesting book, overviewing many subjects in many eras. Just don't read the part about dentistry anywhere near mealtime. *BLEH!* Kate ---- StitchWitch Man is certainly stark mad: he cannot make a flea, yet he makes gods by the dozens. - Montaigne, Essays - 1588 Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ shirley matheis [10,780]CSuX:appraisals Subject: H-COST: Appraisals From: "Shirley Matheis" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:31:01 -0500 -Poster: "Shirley Matheis" A colleague who manages a college costume shop wonders how to go about having their vintage inventory appraised. Any help? Shirley Matheis Theatre Arts Department Dordt College 712-722-6210 stitchwitch [19,781]CSuX:wholesale muslin Subject: Re: H-COST: wholesale muslin From: "StitchWitch" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:29:48 PDT -Poster: "StitchWitch" For those of us near a JoAnn shop, check your sales flyers for the 4th of July weekend. Mine states that Muslin (36" and 38") will be on sale for 79¢ a yard. Kate ---- StitchWitch Man is certainly stark mad: he cannot make a flea, yet he makes gods by the dozens. - Montaigne, Essays - 1588 Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ andrea clef [49,782]CSuX:german book Subject: H-COST: German book From: Andrea Clef Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 23:25:58 +0200 -Poster: Andrea Clef --------------FEF4AB5C69E76EF78FC09DB8 > Does anyone know of a book dealer from whom I might order this particular book (e.g. one which > specializes in German books, or a German dealer)? My German is rusty, but for a good book, I'd be > willing to give it a whirl. > > Susan Carroll-Clark > I don`t know about a dealer who sells this book internationally but I have alreadyordered and sent it to someone from the States here on this list. I would do it again and accept dollars as payment. The book costs 43,-DM (about $ 24) and the shipping would have to be added. Contact me offlist, if you`re interested, many greetings, Diana --------------FEF4AB5C69E76EF78FC09DB8
Does anyone know of a book dealer from whom I might order this particular book (e.g. one which
       specializes in German books, or a German dealer)?  My German is rusty, but for a good book, I'd be
       willing to give it a whirl.

       Susan Carroll-Clark
I don`t know about a dealer who sells this book internationally but I have alreadyordered and sent it to someone from the States here on this list.
I would do it again and accept dollars as payment.
The book costs 43,-DM (about $ 24) and the shipping would have to be added.

Contact me offlist, if you`re interested,
many greetings,
Diana
  --------------FEF4AB5C69E76EF78FC09DB8-- hope h. dunlap [48,783]CSuX:120" muslin Subject: H-COST: FW: 120" muslin From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:03:04 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Well, here's the pricing from Gerriets on the Web for muslin. 10' wide is the same as 120" muslin also equal roughly to 3 meters wide. Their pricing is quite a bit higher than Wal-Mart, which has it for $6.23/yard cut. But they do have flame retardant muslin and the extra extra wide widths which could be a plus. I don't know if this includes shipping. [mailto:gerriets@ushwy1.com] Raw Cotton 10'4" Wide $9.65 yd cut $8.70 yd bolt 14'5" Wide $23.25 yd cut $21.05 yd bolt 20'4" Wide $36.05 yd cut $32.45 yd bolt 33' Wide $99.45 yd cut $89.50 yd bolt 41' Wide $123.15 yd cut $110.80 yd bolt Flame Retarded 10'4" Wide $16.95 yd cut $15.00 yd bolt 13'9" Wide $35.35 yd cut $31.80 yd bolt 19'6" Wide $57.65 yd cut $51.90 yd bolt 32'9" Wide $118.95 yd cut $107.05 yd bolt 40' Wide $169.70 yd cut $152.75 yd bolt Bleached White Muslin - Flame Retarded 13'9" Wide $36.65 yd cut $32.90 yd bolt 19'6" Wide $68.85 yd cut $61.95 yd bolt 32'9" Wide $145.00 yd cut $130.50 yd bolt 40' Wide $198.60 yd cut $178.75 yd bolt Black/Grey/Blue - Flame Retarded 13'9" Wide $41.65 yd cut $37.50 yd bolt 19'6" Wide $76.85 yd cut $69.15 yd bolt 32'9" Wide $145.00 yd cut $130.50 yd bolt All bolts are 65.5 yards long. Best Wishes, Nick Pagliante Gerriets International 609-758-9121 hope h. dunlap [34,784]CSuX:url Subject: H-COST: URL From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:49:24 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" In the Milan Tailor's Book, Illustration f.94v, can anyone explain what the two pattern pieces on top represent? If they are sleeves, can you describe how many pieces are cut per sleeve and how they are set into the bodice? Why are no bodice patterns included? Thanks, Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Penny Ladnier -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" I am sorry, I hit the send button to soon the first time. I sent another message yesterday, but it wasn't posted. Vintage Publications http://www.costumegallery.com/Vintage/Publications.htm Later...Penny http://www.costumegallery.com _____ majordomo@indra.com kwhykelly@aol.com[5,785]CSuX:german book Subject: Re: H-COST: German book From: Kwhykelly@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:06:10 EDT -Poster: Kwhykelly@aol.com aleed [63,786]CSuX:url Subject: RE: H-COST: URL From: aleed Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:38:48 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: aleed The pattern on this page is interesting; the top piece looks to be one half of a sleeve with trim drawn in, in shape similar to some of the women's gown sleeves shown in alcega. The curvy part goes to the back of the arm, like the open oversleeve in the portrait of Lettice Knollys shown in many elizabethan costume books. I believe the bottom two pattern pieces are the front and the back of the skirt, with the back turned upside down to save space. I don't know why there's no bodice pattern pieces; there's none for the men, either. This book was sort of put together piecemeal, not designed as a pattern layout book like Alcega's was. It's a shame, but the color pictures are worth it. :) Drea On Tue, 29 Jun 1999, Hope H. Dunlap wrote: > > -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > > In the Milan Tailor's Book, Illustration f.94v, can anyone > explain what the two pattern pieces on top represent? If > they are sleeves, can you describe how many pieces are cut > per sleeve and how they are set into the bodice? Why are no > bodice patterns included? > > Thanks, Hope H. Dunlap > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com > [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Penny Ladnier > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 7:46 AM > To: h-costume > Subject: H-COST: URL > > > > -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" > > I am sorry, I hit the send button to soon the first time. I > sent another > message yesterday, but it wasn't posted. Vintage > Publications > http://www.costumegallery.com/Vintage/Publications.htm > > Later...Penny > http://www.costumegallery.com > > > _____ > majordomo@indra.com > > > fred struthers [13,787]CSuX:history/vanity Subject: Re: H-COST: History/Vanity From: Fred Struthers Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:51:25 -0700 -Poster: Fred Struthers HISTORY OF VANITY by John Woodforde cover price in 1992 $30 I don't have this but interlibrary loan should! FS -- Fred Struthers http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks kristen m. sieber [16,788]CSuX:needlework in england/ireland Subject: H-COST: Needlework in England/Ireland From: "Kristen M. Sieber" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:46:19 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: "Kristen M. Sieber" Hello. I'm going to Ireland and Southern England in the fall. I dearly wish I could get to Hardwick Hall, but alas, I won't be that far north. Can anybody recommend places to see medieval and renaissance needlework, _especially_ needlepoint/canvas work? Thanks. Kristen Morgaine Sieber lady_gawain@yahoo.com Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com henk t jong [55,789]CSuX:ivanhoe and rowena Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Ivanhoe and Rowena From: "Henk 't Jong" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 19:10:49 +0200 -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands > Hi Diana, You wrote: Do you also have an English version of your brochure? No, I don't. How many pages does it have? If you have it in English and it doesn´t consist of hundreds of pages, I could try an amateur translation into German ;-), so it could be made available to some of the German groups... As I said, I'm not 100 % satisfied with it anymore and besides that: it wasn't meant for re-enactors but for people who want to have a better kind of costume at a 1250-1300 event; for amateurs, that is, and the patterns were meant for amateur sewers as well. I'm afraid the brochure is not good enough for re-enactors... > The book by Ulrich Lehnart (Kleidung und Waffen, etc.) is rather good; > better than any I have seen so far. It only gives information on costume > for the nobility and knights, though. Perhaps I should do one for the > common people. But where will I get the time? > Yes, I also thought that this book is better than most others, I recommended it hereon the list some months ago. It`s only unfortunate that it`s only available in German so far. I read and speak German rather fluently; writing it is another thing though ;-) I`m more interested in the female clothing and the pics are good but the descriptions aim more at male dress, that`s one disadvantage to me... I´m still waiting for the next two books from this author, about the early and late medieval periods. This should be interesting... Bye, Henk merouda the true of bornover [22,790]CSuX:needlework in england/ireland Subject: Re: H-COST: Needlework in England/Ireland From: Merouda the True of Bornover Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:58:54 -0700 -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > Hello. I'm going to Ireland and Southern England in > the fall. I dearly wish I could get to Hardwick Hall, > but alas, I won't be that far north. Can anybody > recommend places to see medieval and renaissance > needlework, _especially_ needlepoint/canvas work? oooh, envy envy envy. I would get myself as fast as possible to the Victoria and Albert Museum. They have one of the finest textile and clothing collections in the world. They have wonderful embroidery examples. -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir megan mchugh [52,791]CSuX:alter years pattern Subject: Re: H-COST: alter years pattern From: "Megan McHugh" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:23:58 -0400 -Poster: "Megan McHugh" Yes!! Yes!!! Shorten the thing to 6"!!!. I thought I was doing something wrong when I measured myself and came up so short, but I realized after I made one up without shortening it that they must have used a very long-waisted person to draft that pattern! It did not fit me, my sister, or the maid of honor for my wedding without taking off a minimum of 1 1/2 inches per person!! Also, the stay lengths they tell you on the pattern are about one-half inch too long. After all that, the corsets looked great, but I also had to shorten the bust to shoulder portion as well, so do up a muslin first!!!!. -----Original Message----- From: Schmitt100@aol.com To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 9:54 AM Subject: H-COST: alter years pattern > >-Poster: Schmitt100@aol.com > >I need some help/advice on two alter years patterns - Easy Renn. Corset and >Easy Renn. Bodice. On both patterns they tell you to take your underarm to >waist measurement and subtract 2 1/2 - 3 inches, and then compare that >measurement to the pattern'a underarm measurement - and then shorten/lengthen >as necessary. > >My question: my underarm measurement (as far as I can tell) is 9". If I >subtract 3" for the corset, that puts me to 6". The pattern's measurement is >9". So, am I correct in that I have to shorten the corset by 3"? This just >seems like a lot to me. (No, I haven't tried mocking it up yet, this is my >first shot at it, and I didn't want to be completely frustrated at midnight >tonight trying to get this all together. Also, I need to order my stays today >so I can have them this week.) > >Thanks for all your help! >********************** >Rebecca Schmitt >So many books, so little time > >We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking as we used when we >created them. -Albert Einstein > >schmitt100@aol.com >********************** hope h. dunlap [104,792]CSuX:url Subject: RE: H-COST: URL From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:16:30 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Thanks, Drea. Now, for my last question, I promise, on 102r, what is the top pattern piece, the one that looks like the right "handlebar of a motocycle"? Would you cut 2, sew them together on the short flat edge at left bottom, sew the top right of the "handgrip" together, and then fit the left end into the armscythe, putting the first seam on top of the upper arm? Just guessing, but would like an expert to confirm. Despite the lack of bodice pieces, the images are "worth their weight." Colors so vivid--gosh, a vogue pattern envelope of 70 years ago doesn't look so vivid and clear!Thanks, Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of aleed -Poster: aleed The pattern on this page is interesting; the top piece looks to be one half of a sleeve with trim drawn in, in shape similar to some of the women's gown sleeves shown in alcega. The curvy part goes to the back of the arm, like the open oversleeve in the portrait of Lettice Knollys shown in many elizabethan costume books. I believe the bottom two pattern pieces are the front and the back of the skirt, with the back turned upside down to save space. I don't know why there's no bodice pattern pieces; there's none for the men, either. This book was sort of put together piecemeal, not designed as a pattern layout book like Alcega's was. It's a shame, but the color pictures are worth it. :) Drea On Tue, 29 Jun 1999, Hope H. Dunlap wrote: > > -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > > In the Milan Tailor's Book, Illustration f.94v, can anyone > explain what the two pattern pieces on top represent? If > they are sleeves, can you describe how many pieces are cut > per sleeve and how they are set into the bodice? Why are no > bodice patterns included? > > Thanks, Hope H. Dunlap > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com > [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Penny Ladnier > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 7:46 AM > To: h-costume > Subject: H-COST: URL > > > > -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" > > I am sorry, I hit the send button to soon the first time. I > sent another > message yesterday, but it wasn't posted. Vintage > Publications > http://www.costumegallery.com/Vintage/Publications.htm > > Later...Penny > http://www.costumegallery.com > > > > _____ > majordomo@indra.com > > > _____ majordomo@indra.com > _____ majordomo@indra.com hope h. dunlap [102,793]CSuX:ivanhoe and rowena Subject: RE: H-COST: Re:Ivanhoe and Rowena From: "Hope H. Dunlap" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:27:12 -0400 -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BEC23D.05B20920 Try the German division of http://www.Amazon.com. It might be linked to the american WebPages at this URL; I'm GUESSING the actual URL might be something like http://www.amaxon.de or http://www.amazon.de.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Susan Carroll-Clark Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 9:11 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Ivanhoe and Rowena Greetings! The book by Ulrich Lehnart (Kleidung und Waffen, etc.) is rather good; better than any I have seen so far. It only gives information on costume for the nobility and knights, though. Perhaps I should do one for the common people. But where will I get the time? Yes, I also thought that this book is better than most others, I recommended it hereon the list some months ago. Does anyone know of a book dealer from whom I might order this particular book (e.g. one which specializes in German books, or a German dealer)? My German is rusty, but for a good book, I'd be willing to give it a whirl. Susan Carroll-Clark ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BEC23D.05B20920

Try=20 the German division of http://www.Amazon.com.  It might = be linked=20 to the american WebPages at this URL; I'm GUESSING the actual URL might = be=20 something like http://www.amaxon.de = or http://www.amazon.de.net
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = owner-h-costume@indra.com=20 [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Susan=20 Carroll-Clark
Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 9:11 = PM
To:=20 h-costume@indra.com
Subject: Re: H-COST: Re:Ivanhoe and=20 Rowena

 
Yes, I=20 also thought that this book is better than most others, I = recommended it=20 hereon the list some months ago.
[23,795]CSuX:milanese tailor s album Subject: Re: H-COST: Milanese Tailor's Album From: aleed Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:51:01 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: aleed As a matter of fact, it is. A bright, medium pink with a slight cranberry/rosy tinge. Drea On Tue, 29 Jun 1999 Fopdejour1@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: Fopdejour1@aol.com > > Drea, > I would like to ask you a question about pic f 103r. Is the dress > actually a dark pink. That is how it appears to me on my computer. The > issue of pink being a period color has come up on another list. > > Charles > dietmar [59,796]CSuX:ivanhoe and rowena Subject: H-COST: Re: Ivanhoe and Rowena From: Dietmar Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:03:22 +0000 -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, Henk wrote: >>> The book by Ulrich Lehnart (Kleidung und Waffen, etc.) is >>> rather good; better than any I have seen so far. It only >>> gives information on costume for the nobility and knights, >>> though. Perhaps I should do one for the common people. But >>> where will I get the time? Well Henk, if you could find the time and energy to expand your group to the U.S., there are quite a few of us that would be happy to help as best we can. I know that I'd love to see your costuming booklet, whether in English or not. I don't speak Dutch, but I'd be willing to help translate too, if we can find someone nearby that speaks Dutch. Diana replied: >> Yes, I also thought that this book is better than most others, >> I recommended it here on the list some months ago. Susan then asked: > Does anyone know of a book dealer from whom I might order this > particular book (e.g. one which specializes in German books, or > a German dealer)? My German is rusty, but for a good book, I'd > be willing to give it a whirl. Diana was kind enough to help me get a copy (my father was in Germany to pick it up), so I'm betting that I have the only copy in North America. :-) I'll add my vote...this is a great book. More comprehensive than any others I've seen, and very period specific. There were some flyers included with the book and they indicate that the publisher, Kerfunkel Verlag, has a website: www.kerfunkel.de I've poked around the site a little and I noticed that they indicate a price of 42-DM. You can get to this by choosing the "Karfunkel-Shop" link and then the link marked "Bücher im Karfunkel-Verlag". You might try buying from the publisher directly. They didn't seem to offer international sales, so you'll have to send them an E-mail. My knowledge of German is pretty good, but it doesn't extend into the jargon of publishing and electronic money transfer, so I'd ask Diana for some help (besides, she's nice ;-). If she can't help you, I'll do what I can. BTW, nice article in TI Susan. Good luck, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." andrea clef [40,797]CSuX:german book Subject: H-COST: Re:German book From: Andrea Clef Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 01:33:15 +0200 -Poster: Andrea Clef --------------EFBFD2FC82711B6A4CEA9D47 > Try the German division of http://www.Amazon.com. It might be linked to the american > WebPages at this URL; I'm GUESSING the actual URL might be something like > http://www.amaxon.de or http://www.amazon.de.net > It`s http://www.amazon.de ,that`s right.But last time I tried they didn´t have it there, it`s published by a very small press. You might try nevertheless as I looked for it there about three months ago. Many greetings, Diana --------------EFBFD2FC82711B6A4CEA9D47
Try the German division of http://www.Amazon.com.  It might be linked to the american
WebPages at this URL; I'm GUESSING the actual URL might be something like
http://www.amaxon.de or http://www.amazon.de.net
It`s http://www.amazon.de ,that`s right.But last time I tried they didn´t have it there, it`s published by a very small press.
You might try nevertheless as I looked for it there about three months ago.

Many greetings,
Diana
  --------------EFBFD2FC82711B6A4CEA9D47-- aleed [126,798]CSuX:milanese tailor s album Subject: Re: H-COST: RE: Milanese Tailor's Album From: aleed Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:46:24 -0400 (EDT) -Poster: aleed Now, there you have me stumped. I've theorized a bunch about that pattern piece, but I think the only way to really figure it out would be to cut out some pieces and start working on it. It looks like a pattern to the open-fronted sleeve on the gown drawn opposite.. Let me know if you come up with anything, Drea On Tue, 29 Jun 1999, Hope H. Dunlap wrote: > > -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > > Thanks, Drea. Now, for my last question, I promise, on > 102r, what is the top pattern piece, the one that looks like > the right "handlebar of a motocycle"? Would you cut 2, sew > them together on the short flat edge at left bottom, sew the > top right of the "handgrip" together, and then fit the left > end into the armscythe, putting the first seam on top of the > upper arm? Just guessing, but would like an expert to > confirm. Despite the lack of bodice pieces, the images are > "worth their weight." Colors so vivid--gosh, a vogue pattern > envelope of 70 years ago doesn't look so vivid and > clear!Thanks, > Hope H. Dunlap > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com > [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of aleed > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 12:39 PM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: RE: H-COST: URL > > > > -Poster: aleed > > The pattern on this page is interesting; the top piece looks > to be one > half of a sleeve with trim drawn in, in shape similar to > some of the > women's gown sleeves shown in alcega. The curvy part goes > to the back of > the arm, like the open oversleeve in the portrait of Lettice > Knollys > shown in many elizabethan costume books. > > I believe the bottom two pattern pieces are the front and > the back of the > skirt, with the back turned upside down to save space. > > I don't know why there's no bodice pattern pieces; there's > none for the > men, either. This book was sort of put together piecemeal, > not designed > as a pattern layout book like Alcega's was. It's a shame, > but the color > pictures are worth it. :) > > Drea > > > On Tue, 29 Jun 1999, Hope H. > Dunlap wrote: > > > > > -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > > > > In the Milan Tailor's Book, Illustration f.94v, can anyone > > explain what the two pattern pieces on top represent? If > > they are sleeves, can you describe how many pieces are cut > > per sleeve and how they are set into the bodice? Why are > no > > bodice patterns included? > > > > Thanks, Hope H. Dunlap > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com > > [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > > Behalf Of Penny Ladnier > > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 7:46 AM > > To: h-costume > > Subject: H-COST: URL > > > > > > > > -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" > > > > > I am sorry, I hit the send button to soon the first time. > I > > sent another > > message yesterday, but it wasn't posted. Vintage > > Publications > > http://www.costumegallery.com/Vintage/Publications.htm > > > > Later...Penny > > http://www.costumegallery.com > > > > > > > > _____ > > majordomo@indra.com > > > > > > > _____ > majordomo@indra.com > > > > > _____ > majordomo@indra.com > > > megan & david schmidt [21,799]CSuX:alter years pattern Subject: Re: H-COST: alter years pattern From: Megan & David Schmidt Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:35:08 -0500 -Poster: Megan & David Schmidt Gosh, and I LOVED the pattern, partly because I had finally found a ready made pattern that I didn't have to add ANYTHING to in the waist length. Megan who wishes some of her waist length could be converted to leg length. > >I need some help/advice on two alter years patterns - Easy Renn. Corset and > >Easy Renn. Bodice. On both patterns they tell you to take your underarm to > >waist measurement and subtract 2 1/2 - 3 inches, and then compare that > >measurement to the pattern'a underarm measurement - and then > shorten/lengthen > >as necessary. > > schmitt100@aol.com[63,800]CSuX:h-costume-digest v4 #406 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #406 From: Schmitt100@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:34:25 EDT -Poster: Schmitt100@aol.com Well, since Alter Years was out of the right sizes of stays, I'm getting all in 12" and cutting them to fit, so hopefully that won't be a problem - now only if they arrive in time for me to do a marathon sewing day starting Thursday night, I might have a costum for Renn Faire on Saturday! (my wonderful employer has seen fit to give us Friday AND Monday off for the holiday! Yay!) ********************** Rebecca Schmitt So many books, so little time We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking as we used when we created them. -Albert Einstein schmitt100@aol.com ********************** In a message dated 6/29/99 1:36:26 PM Central Daylight Time, owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com writes: > Yes!! Yes!!! Shorten the thing to 6"!!!. I thought I was doing something > wrong when I measured myself and came up so short, but I realized after I > made one up without shortening it that they must have used a very > long-waisted person to draft that pattern! It did not fit me, my sister, or > the maid of honor for my wedding without taking off a minimum of 1 1/2 > inches per person!! Also, the stay lengths they tell you on the pattern > are about one-half inch too long. After all that, the corsets looked great, > but I also had to shorten the bust to shoulder portion as well, so do up a > muslin first!!!!. > - -----Original Message----- > From: Schmitt100@aol.com > To: h-costume@indra.com > Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 9:54 AM > Subject: H-COST: alter years pattern > > > > > >-Poster: Schmitt100@aol.com > > > >I need some help/advice on two alter years patterns - Easy Renn. Corset and > >Easy Renn. Bodice. On both patterns they tell you to take your underarm to > >waist measurement and subtract 2 1/2 - 3 inches, and then compare that > >measurement to the pattern'a underarm measurement - and then > shorten/lengthen > >as necessary. > > > >My question: my underarm measurement (as far as I can tell) is 9". If I > >subtract 3" for the corset, that puts me to 6". The pattern's measurement > is > >9". So, am I correct in that I have to shorten the corset by 3"? This just > >seems like a lot to me. (No, I haven't tried mocking it up yet, this is my > >first shot at it, and I didn't want to be completely frustrated at midnight > >tonight trying to get this all together. Also, I need to order my stays > today > >so I can have them this week.) > > > >Thanks for all your help! pulliam@acadia.net (deborah pulliam)[23,801]CSuX:needlework in england/ireland Subject: H-COST: Needlework in England/Ireland From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:38:43 -0500 -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> Aside from the obvious places, like the V&A and British Museum, there's always Fenton House, which is in Hampstead, a short tube ride from central London. Also, Windsor Castle has some early needlework in various places in the state rooms. Hatfield House, just north of London, also has a few pieces, including a purse associated with James I. Museum of Costume at the Assembly Rooms in Bath doesn't have anything medieval, but has fantastic later stuff. The Strangers Hall collection in Norwich is now at Carrow House and has an excellent collection. Many smaller local and house museums have wonderful examples, but you just have to try each one to see what they have. Deborah cynthia virtue [16,802]CSuX:ivanhoe and rowena/other orgs Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Ivanhoe and Rowena/Other orgs From: Cynthia Virtue Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:18:29 -0400 -Poster: Cynthia Virtue Dietmar wrote: > Well Henk, if you could find the time and energy to expand your group to the > U.S., there are quite a few of us that would be happy to help as best we can. And the same goes for several of the European re-enactors. I wish the White Company (and its cousins) had a branch over here! cv -- Today is the yesterday you won't be able to remember tomorrow. -- Daniel Pinkwater August on the coast of Maine! Rent a cottage from our family business - http://www.virtue.to margo anderson [21,803]CSuX:h-costume-digest v4 #406 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #406 From: Margo Anderson Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:43:44 -0700 (PDT) -Poster: Margo Anderson At 04:34 PM 6/29/99 EDT, you wrote: > >-Poster: Schmitt100@aol.com > >Well, since Alter Years was out of the right sizes of stays Ah, yes, the Great Summertime Stay Shortage. It happens every year around this time, Ren Faire season is in full swing and every sppplier from Greenberg and Hammer to Alter Years runs out of the most popular sizes. That's why I've started buying in bulk and cutting my own. Good luck, and remember to round off the corners when you cut. If you have acsess to a grinder or a Dremel with a grinding wheel, that's best, but just clipping off the coners with tinsnips or a chisel will help a lot. Margo andrea gideon [10,804]CSuX:cotehardies Subject: H-COST: Cotehardies From: "Andrea Gideon" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 17:59:05 -0400 -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" Anyone know where I can find a copy of a graph used to make the "cut away anything that doesn't look like a cotehardie" cotehardie? I made my pattern this way a few years ago and threw away my instructions. I now need to make one for a friend. Andrea cynthia bucheger [18,805]CSuX:a book about history of beauty? Subject: Re: H-COST: A book about history of beauty? From: "Cynthia Bucheger" Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 18:11:58 -0500 -Poster: "Cynthia Bucheger" Ella Lynoure Rajamaki wrote: > > -Poster: "Ella Lynoure Rajamaki" > > Greetings all, > > could anyone recommond me a book about history of beauty ideals? > The longer period of time and the more cultures to book covers, the > better, even if many of them wre just meantioned briefly. > > Thanks, > >You might try SEEING THROUGH CLOTHES, by Anne Hollander, Viking Press, 1978 It does talk about body ideas, and such. kat@grendal.rain.com[40,806]CSuX:needlework in england/ireland Subject: Re: H-COST: Needlework in England/Ireland From: kat@grendal.rain.com Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:24:32 +0000 -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > Hello. I'm going to Ireland and Southern England in > the fall. I dearly wish I could get to Hardwick Hall, > but alas, I won't be that far north. Can anybody > recommend places to see medieval and renaissance > needlework, _especially_ needlepoint/canvas work? > Thanks. I saw the most of that sort of thing at the V&A in London. Very few of the other museums had that sort of thing. However, Hever castle, Windsor castle, Hampton Court Palace and the Nottingham Costume and Textile museum did have a lot of needlework, including canvas work. They don't have much medieval, however (unlike the V&A.) Even so, the V&A has the most. Can you say bargello! I was amazed and thrilled to see it, because it was pre-16th C for many of the pieces. Also, you can pull out the trays (which stand in the middle of the room) to look at and to put on study tables. You're even allowed to photograph them with flash. (Some of the warders don't have the new info on that, but they can call their boss and find out that it is ok. Don't be intimidated by them. They are really very nice but they try to follow rules that have sometimes changed.) Most of the others mentioned don't allow photography, let alone flash photography, however. I didn't get to Ireland, so I have no info there. (Although there are places in Northern England that I'd like to get to next time I have the chance.) Have fun! (I can't wait to go back!) Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! snowfire@mail.snet.net[27,807]CSuX:jewels and

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