From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jun 30 23:53:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA19103 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:53:16 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03027; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:02:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id XAA02738 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:02:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id XAA02727 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:02:05 -0600 (MDT) From: Luiseach@aol.com Received: from Luiseach@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6AONa03112 (14382) for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 01:01:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <537df259.24ac5012@aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 01:01:06 EDT Subject: Re: Re: H-COST: Hair question.... To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Luiseach@aol.com In a message dated 06/30/99 07:21:33 PM, Elysant wrote: <> That's a good description of the process. How well it works depends on the length and texture of your hair. My grandmother put my hair into rag curls once. My hair is naturally curly and when she took the rags out I had an Afro. Not a popular style for little blond girls in the late 50s. She ended up french braiding my hair because she couldn't get a comb through it. Lucinda _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 01:33:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA20913 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 01:33:58 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09071; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:41:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id AAA14543 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:40:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id AAA14537 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:40:31 -0600 (MDT) From: Gerekr@aol.com Received: from Gerekr@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6BEAa04566 (4189) for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 02:39:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4dcc2b98.24ac672c@aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 02:39:40 EDT Subject: H-COST: Re: H-COST Suggestion on Janet... To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Gerekr@aol.com Apologies if I've already sent this to the list, 8-0!! >>Date: 06/13 3:46 PM >>... >>-Poster: Joan M Jurancich >> >>... This would be especially useful for the _Waffen-und Kostumkunde_ >>articles. I have not been able, so far, to find a library that >>has the magazine; for ILL through the California State Library, >>I need to give them the location information. If anyone *has* >>found a library with the magazine, could you please either post >>it to the list or send it to me privately ... >she has to tell them where? huh??? This statement about JOAN having to tell the LIBRARY where to look for the journal is just COMPLETELY weird! I have never heard of an inter-library loan operation that worked like that... and I've worked in libraries for over 20 years! anyway, I spent much too much time at work today, 8-), figuring out where this (Waffen und Kostumkunde) is located. The info I could find does NOT say what years each of these institutions holds, however... I've re-sorted the list into free suppliers, suppliers for $$, and non-suppliers. Note that Harvard has designated itself a "supplier for $$" - $20 minimum the last I heard. Even the non-suppliers may have this available for walk-ins to use. state library CA CAM - Los Angeles Co Museum of Art - supplier (no $!) CT UCW - University of Conn - supplier DC SMI - Smithsonian - supplier LA LRU - Tulane - supplier NC NOC - UNIV OF N CAROLINA, CHAPEL HILL - supplier AB UAB - UNIV OF ALBERTA CANADA SUPPLIER ON UWO - UNIV OF WESTERN ONTARIO CANADA SUPPLIER KY KUK - University of Kentucky, Lexington $, supplier MA HLS - Harvard - $, SUPPLIER NY BUF - SUNY AT BUFFALO - $, SUPPLIER NY NYP - NEW YORK PUB LIBR RES LIBR $, supplier PA PAU - UNIV OF PENNSYLVANIA , PHILADELPHIA - $, SUPPLIER CT yrb - WADSWORTH ATHENEUM, AUERBACH LIBR , Hartford - nonsupplier DC dlc - Library of Congress - NONSUPPLIER MA bmf - Museum of Fine Arts, Boston - NONSUPPLIER EU ava - V&A - nonsupplier edn - (Danish) - nonsupplier xu@ - (another Danish) - nonsupplier That's 18 known locations: 7 free suppliers, 5 suppliers requiring $$ ... Hope this helps, & Good luck! Patsy/Chimene _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 05:56:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA23888 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 05:56:11 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA20244; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 05:06:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id FAA22089 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 05:06:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (sendmail@mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id FAA22082 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 05:06:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svea.execpc.com (tigella-1-116.mdm.mad.execpc.com [169.207.41.116]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.1) id GAA11593 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 06:06:07 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19990701060614.006c28dc@mail.execpc.com> X-Sender: svea@mail.execpc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 06:06:14 -0500 To: h-costume@indra.com From: John and/or Barbara Bailey Subject: Re: H-COST: OT: mundane hair styles for REALLY LONG hair In-Reply-To: <199907010412.AAA14606@smtp.leading.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: John and/or Barbara Bailey "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" >The problem is that my hair, which I like VERY much, is butt-length, hip-length if I braid it, which I often do. >While this is great for period hairstyles, I'm having real trouble finding a mundane hairstyle I like Have you considered or tried the Gibson Girl-type top of the head chignon? You can leave the non-chignon-ed hair quite puffy and soft, and since the pile of hair is on top of your head, rather than on the back, gravity has a little more trouble taking over. You'll still need way more hairpins than I do (I only need about four to hold) but I've played volleyball with my hair (mid-back length and wavy) in this style, and it held 'til I pulled the pins out. Barbara _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 07:01:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA24979 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 07:01:46 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA23474; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 06:12:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id GAA28240 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 06:11:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from news.mtu.edu (root@news.mtu.edu [141.219.70.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id GAA28233 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 06:11:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtu.edu (root@mtu.edu [141.219.70.1]) by news.mtu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA26370 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:11:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wiley.sas.it.mtu.edu (wiley.sas.it.mtu.edu [141.219.36.70]) by mtu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21301 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:11:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from itds7 (tunes.acs.it.mtu.edu [141.219.38.220]) by wiley.sas.it.mtu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/mturelay-1.2) with SMTP id IAA09154 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:11:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: wiley.sas.it.mtu.edu: Host tunes.acs.it.mtu.edu [141.219.38.220] claimed to be itds7 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990701200620.00914910@pop.sas.it.mtu.edu> X-Sender: mlpeyerk@pop.sas.it.mtu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 20:06:20 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Mikkee Peyerk Subject: H-COST: Elizabethan Hats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Mikkee Peyerk Many thanks to all who have answered my question. Hopefully I can find one I like and make it. Mikkee "The real secret to patience is to find something to do in the meantime." -Unknown _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 07:08:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25010 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 07:08:51 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA24003; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 06:19:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id GAA29014 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 06:19:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from news.mtu.edu (root@news.mtu.edu [141.219.70.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id GAA29007 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 06:19:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtu.edu (root@mtu.edu [141.219.70.1]) by news.mtu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA27121 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wiley.sas.it.mtu.edu (wiley.sas.it.mtu.edu [141.219.36.70]) by mtu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA22130 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:19:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from itds7 (tunes.acs.it.mtu.edu [141.219.38.220]) by wiley.sas.it.mtu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/mturelay-1.2) with SMTP id IAA09657 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:19:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: wiley.sas.it.mtu.edu: Host tunes.acs.it.mtu.edu [141.219.38.220] claimed to be itds7 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990701201350.00919780@pop.sas.it.mtu.edu> X-Sender: mlpeyerk@pop.sas.it.mtu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 20:13:50 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Mikkee Peyerk Subject: Re: H-COST: Hair question.... In-Reply-To: <199907010218.WAA18205@smtp.snet.net> References: <3779B17A.CEECA3C3@inreach.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Mikkee Peyerk I was against her using any modern setting lotion, but >she sometimes used sugar water to help keep the curls in. (Just dampened >the hair slightly with it). > I have very fine hair, which was much longer when I was in gradeschool, but in order to keep curls in my hair, my mother used Knox gelatin. I'm not sure if she did something special to it or not, but it worked. Mikkee "The real secret to patience is to find something to do in the meantime." -Unknown _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 07:59:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25841 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 07:59:12 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA27200; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 07:09:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA05700 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 07:09:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA05689 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 07:09:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.217.218.69] (ell183.acadia.net [205.217.218.238]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA14352 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:09:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: pulliam@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:10:05 -0500 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Subject: H-COST: Elizabethan caps Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> Minor correction: a toque actually is a brimless hat or cap (made popular in this century by Queen Mary). The caps you're describing are known as flat caps or Tudor caps. Deborah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 08:11:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26135 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:11:43 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA28353; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 07:21:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA07571 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 07:21:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from RBAD59.RBACRXCLU.BAS.ROCHE.COM (gw.bas.roche.com [196.3.50.241]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA07552 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 07:21:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com (rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com [145.245.211.139]) by Roche.COM (PMDF V5.2-31 #33472) with ESMTP id <01JD1ZDP16PE9DFK3H@Roche.COM> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:19:42 +0200 Received: by rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <3B8AVZYS>; Thu, 01 Jul 1999 15:19:36 +0200 Content-return: allowed Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 15:19:35 +0200 From: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Subject: H-COST: OT - Yahoo/Geocites webpages - you don't own your content! To: "Herb Kitchen (E-mail)" , "Historic Costuming (E-mail)" , "Historic Costume List (E-mail)" , "Later-Medieval-Britain (E-mail)" , "Sca-Cooks (E-mail)" , "Victoriana (E-mail)" Message-id: <431EB483DFB4D111A2D50000F843C5C401009DF6@RWEMSEM2> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sensitivity: Company-Confidential Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" I got passed this on from another list. I thought anyone with web pages on these servers should know about this. Apologies to anyone else. Yahoo's Lawyers Take Over the Asylum How much will your free Geocities site actually cost you if they "legally" steal your content? By David "Spam Me and Die" Fiedler Sigh. They tried to slip one past us all. Before I go any further with this, I want you to know that I'm truly sad to be writing this particular column today. I'm not one of those people who run around saying "Oh, sure, I know Jerry Yang", but I have met him on a number of occasions and he's always struck me as a Nice Guy. Yesterday, Yahoo! took the first major steps in bringing millions of GeoCities users into its own network, after buying Geocities in January. Unfortunately, yesterday was also the day that Yahoo! quietly unveiled some new terms in its agreement with users of Yahoo! and Geocities properties...terms that effectively mean you're giving Yahoo! perpetual rights to any content you submit to them! Paragraph 8 is the one we're concerned about here: By submitting Content to any Yahoo property, you automatically grant, or warrant that the owner of such Content has expressly granted, Yahoo the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive and fully sublicensable right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display such Content (in whole or part) world-wide and/or to incorporate it in other works in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed. This is one of the most horrific scenarios one could possibly imagine, but in a way I'm glad that such a high-profile company like Yahoo! was the first to try this little scam. Every time I've visited one of the sites that give you free Web space, I've read the Terms and Conditions carefully, because I was afraid that someone would try this eventually. This way, we can make enough of an outcry that perhaps we can shame Yahoo! into withdrawing the entire concept, as well as set a precedent that will effectively stop anyone else from doing the same thing. We all know that nobody would visit any site on the Web if it wasn't for the content there. In the past, sites like Geocities would be content to sell ads on their site -- which contain your content -- and the deal was that you'd get free Web space. Now apparently they want to sneak your content into their pockets as well. Well, we're not going to let them do that, are we? I am indebted to Mark Welch, who runs Web Site Banner Ads Digest among other things, for pointing this out to his subscribers, of which I am one. Mark is calling for a boycott of Yahoo! and Geocities until they mend their ways. Let's hope they see things the right way and fix this fast. Personally, I think Yahoo! is a great directory, and I use it all the time. But I'm going to give them a pass until they come to their senses. After all, if Yahoo! didn't have all our content to point to, where would they be in the first place? -- D. Fiedler Evening Update: It's Worse! I've been doing a bit of research, and it seems our friends at Yahoo/Geocities are not alone. Other sites that are doing this include @Home, Tripod, and Suite101. Because of the widespread nature of this problem, I've set up a personal outside site to act as a clearinghouse for information at http://dragonflames.com. Please go there for further updates on the boycott. Thanks! David Fiedler is Editor-in-Chief of WebDeveloper.com, and his opinions are definitely his own. Last modified: Tue Jun 29 21:35:26 EDT 1999 Taken from http://www.webdeveloper.com/refresh/refresh_062999.html _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 08:50:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26771 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:50:52 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03106; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:01:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA14014 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:00:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.118]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA14003 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:00:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from postoffice-281.iap.bryant.webtv.net (postoffice-281.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.199.248]) by mailsorter-105-2.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/ms.gso.08Dec97) with ESMTP id HAA23563; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 07:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from production@localhost) by postoffice-281.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/po.gso.24Feb98) id HAA25510; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 07:00:52 -0700 (PDT) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQOET0Wb70FE+u3wX0BIEbRu7BnoAIUFqG5Lm5C0tHTHEhBpgKvQ0BvfSo= From: CDepner26@webtv.net (Harold Hensley) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:00:51 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan caps Message-ID: <13043-377B7493-2465@postoffice-281.iap.bryant.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam)'s message of Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:10:05 -0500 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: CDepner26@webtv.net (Harold Hensley) Deborah Are you referring to the Marie Stuart Cap? I have been researching this cap (the toque) for quiet some time now and all my sources referred to it as a toque. I'll be happy to share my sources with you if you like. I would also be interested in knowing your sources as I am eager to learn anything new having to do with the Elizabethan era. Thanks Melissa Depner _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 10:46:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28590 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 10:46:15 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17854; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:56:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA12935 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:56:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zeus.directcon.net (root@zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA12810 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:55:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r4p18.directcon.net [206.170.184.67]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA08263 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 08:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907011554.IAA08263@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: H-COST: OT: mundane hair styles for REALLY LONG hair Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson > >Have you considered or tried the Gibson Girl-type top of the >head chignon? > >You can leave the non-chignon-ed hair quite puffy and soft, >and since the pile of hair is on top of your head, But how do you get it to stay on top of your head? I like this style, but whenever I try to wear it, the bun slides to the back, or worse, to one side. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 12:18:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA30028 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:18:07 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02067; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:28:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA12904 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:28:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Princeton.EDU (outbound2.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.120]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA12858 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:28:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.Princeton.EDU (mail.Princeton.EDU [128.112.129.14]) by Princeton.EDU (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10235 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:28:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from witsend2 (witsend2.Princeton.EDU [128.112.234.12]) by mail.Princeton.EDU (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA01405 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:27:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "GRM Files" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: OT: mundane hair styles for REALLY LONG hair Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:27:59 -0400 Message-ID: <001c01bec3e7$108b0300$0cea7080@witsend2.Princeton.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199907011554.IAA08263@zeus.directcon.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "GRM Files" To keep the Gibson-y thing at the top of my head, I just pull the front part of the hair further through the elastic than the rest of the hair, before "bunning." That gives a kind of anchor to the pouf. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 14:18:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA31959 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:18:40 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22204; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:29:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA06525 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:45:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jefferson.patriot.net (root@jefferson.patriot.net [209.249.176.3]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA06493 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:45:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [206.151.9.16] (th-0-7.patriot.net [206.151.9.16] (may be forged)) by jefferson.patriot.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02348 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:05:58 -0400 Message-Id: <199907011805.OAA02348@jefferson.patriot.net> Subject: Re: H-COST: OT: mundane hair styles for REALLY LONG hair Date: Thu, 1 Jul 99 14:08:49 -0000 x-sender: aquazoo@mail.patriot.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Hello Arianne and other longhairs, You need The Long Hair Site! . There is also an e-mail discussion list, which can be reached through the site. One source of styles is a series of videotapes by Jim Butchee who is a long hair stylist in Texas. There is a phone number on the tape - 1-800-803-7220. There are several places that cater to long hair, though they are few and far between. The Long Hair Site has links to sources. Good luck! -Carol Kocian _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 14:19:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA31966 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:19:10 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22075; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:28:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA17048 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 10:08:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tn.home.com [24.2.7.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA16864 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 10:08:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from home.com ([24.1.35.138]) by mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990701160807.EXPX559.mail.rdc1.tn.home.com@home.com> for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:08:07 -0700 Message-ID: <377B9266.B1BA48E1@home.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 11:08:06 -0500 From: Kat & Kent X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: OT: mundane hair styles for REALLY LONG hair References: <199907011554.IAA08263@zeus.directcon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Kat & Kent Margo Anderson wrote: > > > >Have you considered or tried the Gibson Girl-type top of the > >head chignon? > > > >You can leave the non-chignon-ed hair quite puffy and soft, > >and since the pile of hair is on top of your head, > > But how do you get it to stay on top of your head? I like this style, > but whenever I try to wear it, the bun slides to the back, or worse, > to one side. > > Margo My hair only comes down mid-back and it's really baby fine but I find that two or three strategically placed long bobby pins do the trick. Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 14:20:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA31989 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:20:13 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22590; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:31:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA29089 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:20:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA28953 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:19:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from msmclean (209-20-11-109.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.11.109]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA10786 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:19:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:19:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990701141830.0d67e9c2@mail.interlog.com> X-Sender: msmclean@mail.interlog.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: "Marsha S. McLean" Subject: H-COST: Elizabethan, again Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Marsha S. McLean" - -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" I guess I should have been more specific. Would it be appropriate to have embriodered gaurds, like the Elanora of Toledo gown, on a linen merchant class gown? Andrea Indeed, the middle class are notable for their attempts to dress like the upper classes. This seems to me like the perfect way to do that. Can't afford a silk gown? Well, you CAN afford the heavily embriodered guards. If't were me, I'd make MY guards even more elaborate than any wealthy woman's. Now we know there is little evidence of everyday dress, much less middle class every day dress, so this is conjecture based on human nature. Look at women today; they can't have the Gucci suit, so they buy the scarf. One possible influencing factor; is this for a Puritan? If so, plain is bettter. Marsha _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 14:21:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA32103 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:21:25 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22768; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:32:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA10011 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:01:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA09796 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:00:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costume (207-172-244-75.s75.tnt4.rcm.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.244.75]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA22986 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00be01bec3f3$e62e0f00$b94faccf@costume> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: OT: REALLY LONG hair Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:59:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" You might want to try some of the hairstyles on this article I posted http://www.costumegallery.com/Frank_Leslie/April_1864/Ladies_Hairstyles.htm Directions are on the page. All of the hairstyles require long hair or hair pieces. One style states that you need a yard of hair. The styles are very pretty and can be adapted to current fashion. My seven year old daughter has knee-length hair. It is fine and curly. She loves these hairstyles. So I am going to try them out on her. There is a list for people with long hair. Carol Kocian is on it. Maybe she can post the directions for getting on the list. I'd like to get on that list too. Later...Penny http://www.costumegallery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 14:21:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA32107 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:21:45 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22769; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:32:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA22408 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 10:22:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.snet.net (smtp.snet.net [204.60.6.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA22303 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 10:22:26 -0600 (MDT) From: snowfire@mail.snet.net Received: from [204.60.46.173] (hrfr-sh14-port173.snet.net [204.60.46.173]) by smtp.snet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/SNET-bmx-1.3/D-1.7/O-1.6) with SMTP id MAA01421 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:22:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907011622.MAA01421@smtp.snet.net> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 12:17:42 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: OT: mundane hair styles for REALLY LONG hair To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <199907011554.IAA08263@zeus.directcon.net> X-Mailer: SPRYNET Mail 32-Bit Mail Version: 05.00.06.72 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: snowfire@mail.snet.net -Poster: Elysant Per my mother - she used to do Edwardian and Gibson Girl styles for people. Use hair pins instead of bobby pins, or braid it and then wind it into the bun, or twist the hair round and roundm then coil the twist into a bun. Also you can use a large "pony-tail clip" which is a rigid circular clip which snaps shut around the base of the ponytail, and has "teeth" which interlace in the middle of the circle - enhances the grip to keep the ponytail in place. (She's in Britain - don't know what's available where you are sorry!) Also use combs. Using combs can increase the pouffiness of the hair around the bun, without loosening it for the same effect and will eliminate slippage. To insert the combs, you slide them up the hair wrong side out, then flip the comb over while in the hair, and push it down firmly into place. This seats it and allows the hair to pouf below and in front of the comb, as well as keeps the comb in place. You could place a few of them around the sides and back of the bun, to achieve the Gibson Girl (or "Chelsea Bun") effect. Elysant _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 15:37:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA00598 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:37:56 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05902; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:48:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA11283 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:48:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from frey.janrix.com (frey.janrix.com [207.22.155.23]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id OAA11253 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:47:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: FROM mercury.janrix.com BY frey.janrix.com ; Thu Jul 01 16:48:47 1999 Received: from kat ([207.22.155.130] (may be forged)) by mercury.janrix.com (2.5 Build 2640 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA00310 for ; Thu, 01 Jul 1999 16:47:42 -0400 Received: by kat with Microsoft Mail id <01BEC3E0.6E5F9100@kat>; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:40:30 -0400 Message-ID: <01BEC3E0.6E5F9100@kat> From: kat To: "'h-costume@indra.com'" Subject: H-COST: fabric sources Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:28:17 -0400 Encoding: 14 TEXT Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: kat I am looking for a source (wholesale or retail) for wool satin. Also: I was also told there is a company in England making a wool superfine, cochineal dyed, that is back ordered for nearly a year. I saw/handled some of the wool, and it looks too 'hot' for cochineal -- almost edging on the neon. I don't know if this is the real deal and the other cochineal fabrics I have seen are a poorer red, or if this is a commercial dye that supposedly looks like cochineal. the fabric is for a British officer's coat. Kat Hargus owner, Making Time www.makingtime.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 16:49:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA01706 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:49:53 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15505; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:52:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA24952 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:52:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id PAA24926 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:52:14 -0600 (MDT) From: CONNECT@aol.com Received: from CONNECT@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6BGDa03295 (14458) for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:51:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:51:15 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: fabric sources To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: CONNECT@aol.com In a message dated 7/1/99 4:49:15 PM, kat@janrix.com writes: << -Poster: kat I am looking for a source (wholesale or retail) for wool satin. >> Designer Fabric Outlet in Toronto, Ontario has wool satin for $25 CAN a yard, if memory serves. Yours, Pattie Rayl _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 17:21:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02330 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:21:08 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11281; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:26:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA19469 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:26:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from chmls05.mediaone.net (ne.mediaone.net [24.128.1.70]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id PAA19441 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:26:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mediaone.net (janicedals.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.121.31]) by chmls05.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15686 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:26:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <377BDD51.CB029BC8@mediaone.net> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 17:27:45 -0400 From: Janice Dallas X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-MOENE (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: OT: mundane hair styles for REALLY LONG hair References: <199907010412.AAA14606@smtp.leading.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Janice Dallas I also have very long hair which I often put up with the Mei Fa sticks or another brand that is sturdier. Before I started using sticks, I had a "Do" which balanced out the weight of my hair on my head so my neck wouldn't be strained. I'd braid my hair at the nape, heading up to the crown of my head, or a little forward. Then I'd fasten it with a large barrette,and divide it into two braids, fastening the ends with bands (optional) these two braids would be carried forward to each side and then back, above each ear, to have their tails end tucked under the nape/beginning of the whole braid. Fasten in place with pins and you're done. This worked for a friend with slippery blonde hair past her buttocks as well but we had to do more with her ends, sort of a back spiral arrangement. -- Janice Dallas JaniceDals@MediaOne.net "Just so, the girl has beauty, virtue, wit..." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 18:38:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA03457 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:38:13 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29397; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:49:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA18957 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:48:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from discordia.io.com (discordia.io.com [199.170.88.100]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id RAA18940 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:48:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dragon (as1-dialup-72.io.com [206.224.82.72]) by discordia.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15487 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:48:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199907012348.SAA15487@discordia.io.com> From: "Amanda Reeves" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG hair Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:51:57 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Amanda Reeves" One thing caught my attention on Penny's hair site...: Cover it all with an invisible net. What a simple cure all! Amanda _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 19:03:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA03911 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:03:10 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02227; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:14:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA22609 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:13:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rrnet.com (root@rrnet.com [206.11.160.5]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id SAA22593 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:13:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from john (copy.cat.rrnet.com [206.11.160.213]) by rrnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA21001 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:13:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907020013.TAA21001@rrnet.com> X-Sender: baird@rrnet.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 19:13:37 -0500 To: h-costume@indra.com From: "J,K,S&A Baird" Subject: Re: H-COST: fabric sources In-Reply-To: <01BEC3E0.6E5F9100@kat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "J,K,S&A Baird" At 04:28 PM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: kat > >I am looking for a source (wholesale or retail) for wool satin. > > I have found wool satin at G Street Fabrics (1-800-333-9191), at Treadle Yard Goods in St. Paul, MN, and at other fine fabric stores. Wholesale--I don't know. The stuff I've seen is made in Italy. It is gorgeous! Kim _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 19:42:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA04556 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:42:44 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05938; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:51:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA27489 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:51:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id SAA27470 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:51:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costume (207-172-63-150.s150.tnt3.rcm.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.63.150]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA10772 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:51:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <01ae01bec424$dbf9cac0$b94faccf@costume> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG hair Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:50:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" I too have hip length very straight and fine hair. Everything falls out of my hair. When I did the Cyber Cinderella thing last year, the hair stylists "Up-do Queens" guaranteed me they could make my hair stay up. They used this hair spray called Vavoom by Matrix. On the canister it is not called hair spray but Freezing Spray. Believe me it did hold my hair in place even after I took all the pins out. The stylists told me I would have to wash my hair twice with baking soda to get the spray out. Later...Penny http://www.costumegallery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 19:53:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA04717 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:53:46 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07589; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:05:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA29292 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:04:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.snet.net (smtp.snet.net [204.60.6.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA29278 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:04:34 -0600 (MDT) From: snowfire@mail.snet.net Received: from [204.60.12.147] (hrfr-sh11-port147.snet.net [204.60.12.147]) by smtp.snet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/SNET-bmx-1.3/D-1.7/O-1.6) with SMTP id VAA25920 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907020104.VAA25920@smtp.snet.net> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 21:00:47 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG hair To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <01ae01bec424$dbf9cac0$b94faccf@costume> X-Mailer: SPRYNET Mail 32-Bit Mail Version: 05.00.06.72 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: snowfire@mail.snet.net -Poster: Elysant See that's the problem I used to have too! Fine silky hair, everything falls out - no matter what! Ribbons, bobby pins, spirals, whatever! (Unless you glue it or starch it in place or something)! ;-) I'm glad Im not alone anyway! With my veils, I use those long pins with the big pearl tops to pin the ruddy thing to my head! sigh! I wonder what they did in the olden days! Elysant On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, "Penny Ladnier" wrote: > >-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" > >I too have hip length very straight and fine hair. Everything falls out of >my hair. When I did the Cyber Cinderella thing last year, the hair stylists >"Up-do Queens" guaranteed me they could make my hair stay up. They used >this hair spray called Vavoom by Matrix. On the canister it is not called >hair spray but Freezing Spray. Believe me it did hold my hair in place even >after I took all the pins out. The stylists told me I would have to wash my >hair twice with baking soda to get the spray out. > >Later...Penny >http://www.costumegallery.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 20:05:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04885 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:05:41 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08738; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:16:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA00997 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:16:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from voicenet.com (mail12.voicenet.com [207.103.0.6]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id TAA00971 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 18768 invoked from network); 2 Jul 1999 01:15:55 -0000 Received: from dialpool1417-pri.voicenet.com (209.71.89.82) by mail12.voicenet.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 1999 01:15:55 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19990701201100.4d87ceba@popmail.voicenet.com> X-Sender: enilorac@popmail.voicenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 20:11:00 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Caroline Dechert Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG hair In-Reply-To: <199907020104.VAA25920@smtp.snet.net> References: <01ae01bec424$dbf9cac0$b94faccf@costume> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Caroline Dechert >See that's the problem I used to have too! Fine silky hair, everything falls >out - no matter what! Ribbons, bobby pins, spirals, whatever! (Unless you >glue it or starch it in place or something)! ;-) I'm glad Im not alone >anyway! > >Elysant I, too, have very long, straight, things-fall-out-of-it hair. I've managed by using roller pins (like very long bobby pins), and by arranging my hair so that it is always either braided or twisted in a coil before putting it up. The pins won't slip from braided hair, and can't slip far through a twisted coil. Just be careful to keep the weight centered, or the neck strain and headaches can be frightful. Caroline ---Caroline Dechert enilorac@voicenet.com / Carodec@aol.com / caroline@agcsys.com "How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks." Dorothy Sayers, Gaudy_Night _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 20:21:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA05201 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:21:46 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA09980; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:27:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA02490 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:27:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [209.48.224.31]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA02468 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:27:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lindo (p20.a7.du.radix.net [207.192.132.20]) by mail1.radix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA10813 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907020126.VAA10813@mail1.radix.net> X-Sender: lindo@saltmine.radix.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 21:33:10 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Kevin + Mara Riley Subject: Re: H-COST: OT: mundane hair styles for REALLY LONG hair In-Reply-To: <199907011622.MAA01421@smtp.snet.net> References: <199907011554.IAA08263@zeus.directcon.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Kevin + Mara Riley My favorite fast hairdo thing is to braid my hair in back, then wind it around a bandana or ribbon, then wind the ends of the ribbon a) under the resulting bundle, then b) up over the bundle and tie in a knot or bow. Quick, easy, and it stays out of the way. My hair reaches to my waistline in back, and it's not terribly thick, but it's not too thin either. I don't know how much difference an extra six or ten inches would make. Cheers, Mara Kevin + Mara Riley Home Page http://www.radix.net/~lindo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 20:27:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA05247 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:27:30 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10944; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:32:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA02954 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:32:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dodo.prod.itd.earthlink.net (dodo.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.99]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA02943 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:32:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costumemag.com (1Cust50.tnt5.denver.co.da.uu.net [63.14.55.50]) by dodo.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA03549 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <377C16BF.9C75490E@costumemag.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 19:32:49 -0600 From: Mary Denise Smith Organization: Costume & Dressmaker Press X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Looking for Beth McMahon References: <199907012348.SAA15487@discordia.io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Mary Denise Smith Will Beth McMahon please email me privately? Thanks, Mary Denise Smith _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 21:28:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06212 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:28:28 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17068; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:31:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA10516 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:30:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.sun-spot.com (root@mail.sun-spot.com [208.154.174.7]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA10497 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:30:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brand (lon26-pm4.sun-spot.com [208.166.155.185]) by mail.sun-spot.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA32031 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 22:30:10 -0400 Message-ID: <002701bec433$299417a0$b99ba6d0@brand> From: "J. Gregory" To: Subject: H-COST: Elizabethan sailors Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 22:32:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0024_01BEC411.A18E53A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "J. Gregory" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BEC411.A18E53A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello! Does anyone know where we could find information on the clothing of sea = captains, sailors or middle class men in Elizabethan England? Any = suggestions of books or websites would be most welcome. Or perhaps a = movie where the costuming was good? (Yes, I know these are very few, = and VERY far between!) We have found many portraits of Drake dressed to impress the queen, but = I'm certain he didn't wear all of that when he was busily ravaging = Spanish shipping lanes. So what did real people wear day-to-day? My = husband has found the lack of information quite frustrating. :) (He = HATES ruffs!) Thanks! J. Gregory =3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D= -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D "We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." -Robert Wilensky, University of = California =3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D= -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BEC411.A18E53A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello!
 
Does anyone know where we could find = information=20 on the clothing of sea captains, sailors or middle class men in = Elizabethan=20 England?  Any suggestions of books or websites would be most = welcome. =20 Or perhaps a movie where the costuming was good?  (Yes, I know = these are=20 very few, and VERY far between!)
 
We have found many portraits of = Drake dressed to=20 impress the queen, but I'm certain he didn't wear all of that when he = was busily=20 ravaging Spanish shipping lanes.  So what did real people wear=20 day-to-day?  My husband has found the lack of information quite=20 frustrating.  :)  (He HATES ruffs!)
 
Thanks!
J.=20 Gregory
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D= -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-= =3D-=3D
"We've=20 heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards = could
 produce the=20 Complete Works of Shakespeare.  Now, thanks to = the
 Internet, we=20 know this is not=20 true."
         &nbs= p;            = ;            = =20 -Robert Wilensky, University of=20 California
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D= -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-= =3D-=3D-=3D
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BEC411.A18E53A0-- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 21:59:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06689 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:59:19 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20375; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:05:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA14923 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:04:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id VAA14912 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:04:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-44-216.s216.tnt3.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.44.216]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03526 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:04:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3779C1F8.6CBC6119@erols.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 00:06:32 -0700 From: "David S. Mallinak" Organization: Red Dragon Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Polish gowns References: <005201bea198$52dd7a60$af49f7a5@pavilion> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "David S. Mallinak" Megan McHugh wrote: > -Poster: "Megan McHugh" > > Is there a place in the catalog where I can order it? I missed the exhibit, > but would very much like to order a copy of the catalog. Thanks for the > info you sent. This evening I saw in Olsson in Washington DC a copy of the Winged Horseman catalog in the "Sale / Ends" rack. DSM _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 1 23:42:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA08476 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:42:07 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA29967; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 22:50:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA28396 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 22:49:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA28385 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 22:49:45 -0600 (MDT) From: CONNECT@aol.com Received: from CONNECT@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6PIPa10075 (3878) for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:47:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <29ea3fc.24ad9e76@aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:47:50 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan sailors To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: CONNECT@aol.com In a message dated 7/1/99 10:31:17 PM, brand@sun-spot.com writes: << Hello! Does anyone know where we could find information on the clothing of sea captains, sailors or middle class men in Elizabethan England? Any suggestions of books or websites would be most welcome. Or perhaps a movie where the costuming was good? (Yes, I know these are very few, and VERY far between!) >> Have you checked out the Merry Rose website? It's a tiny bit before Elizabethan, but it's Tudor, if that's ok. Additionally, Herbert Norris's book on Tudor Costume and Fashion has a sailor outfit drawn in it. Where he gets his source is a mystery tho. ;( Yours, Pattie Rayl _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 00:42:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA09421 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 00:42:48 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05036; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:51:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id XAA05687 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:51:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id XAA05666 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:51:20 -0600 (MDT) From: Gerekr@aol.com Received: from Gerekr@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6FBCa16595 (4184) for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 01:50:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <920b9627.24adad2b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 01:50:35 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Article about Class and Fabric To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Gerekr@aol.com On 6/30/99 5:02 AM h-costume@indra.com wrote: > There was a brief mention a couple of days ago about an article = >(perhaps book?) >discussing the relationship between fabric and design and social class, = >with regards >to interviews. It seemed to be in something called New Woman? Did = >anyone know to what this reference referred? Sounds fascinating... > > Thanks. Cindy Brown This is in John Molloy's "New Women's Dress for Success", copyright about 1997; check your local public library. Based on his 20 years consulting experience with women executives and the companies which employ them; mostly anecdotal evidence, but very interesting. I think what I mentioned in that post was that Molloy is very convinced that "upper class" colors and fabrics, and a couple of other indicators, send crystal-clear, if usually unconscious, signals to observers of all classes (i.e., blue-collars recognize upper class signals just as definitely as vice versa). An easy read, too -- entertainingly written, fairly short; includes specific exercises and strategies for up-class-ing yourself, if you're in a position to want or need to. Clear examples of (allegedly) how lower-class signals can short-circuit promotion opportunities, etc. Chimene _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 03:08:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA10739 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 03:08:27 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA15100; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 02:17:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id CAA19476 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 02:17:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [195.194.177.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id CAA19471 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 02:16:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from csv6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA13971.; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:21:45 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-Message_Server by csv6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 02 Jul 1999 09:16:04 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 09:15:56 +0100 From: "KATE M BUNTING" To: Subject: H-COST: re:Elizabethan sailors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id DAA10739 Status: O -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" Pattie means "Mary Rose". The URL is http://www.maryrose.org/ Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 06:55:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA14522 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 06:55:57 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA25738; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 06:07:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id GAA21584 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 06:07:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id GAA21553 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 06:07:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.217.218.239] (ell184.acadia.net [205.217.218.239]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA20590 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:06:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: pulliam@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:07:53 -0500 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Subject: H-COST: wool satin Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> I would check with Kathleen Smithat Textile Reproductions. She no longer advertises, but is still in business and selling wonderful fabrics. I saw some lovely 100 percent wool jeans when I was last there. ph 413 296 4437 (fax 413 296 0036.) <> The British "red coats" were always dyed with madder, so it should be a hot red, not a cochineal/purplish red. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 06:55:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA14528 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 06:55:59 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA25743; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 06:07:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id GAA21588 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 06:07:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id GAA21571 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 06:07:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.217.218.239] (ell184.acadia.net [205.217.218.239]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA20603 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:07:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: pulliam@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:08:00 -0500 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Subject: H-COST: Elizabethan sailors Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> Very little, if anything, has been published on this, unfortunately. The large book called The Elizabethan Age (sorry, I've forgotten the publisher, but much of the information came from the Folger ) has quite a lot of graphic material in it that might be useful. About 20 years ago, someone published a short series on sailors' clothing in The Mariner's Mirror; check a good citation index. Actually, the frontispiece of the 20c Mariner's Mirror is an original engraving from the 16c one, and includes about six sailors (all but one is wearing a ruff, by the way.) Deborah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 08:35:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA16224 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:35:07 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA04068; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 07:46:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA03761 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 07:46:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tn.home.com [24.2.7.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA03619 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 07:46:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from home.com ([24.1.35.138]) by mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990702134605.KPEP559.mail.rdc1.tn.home.com@home.com> for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 06:46:05 -0700 Message-ID: <377CC29B.807B293F@home.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 08:46:03 -0500 From: Kat & Kent X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG hair & veils References: <199907020104.VAA25920@smtp.snet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Kat & Kent Re veils & fine hair...I use either a circlet to hold it in place or a barbette and pin the veil to the barbette. Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 08:37:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA16236 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:37:03 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05009; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 07:49:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA04050 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 07:48:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tn.home.com [24.2.7.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA04034 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 07:48:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from home.com ([24.1.35.138]) by mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990702134825.KPMR559.mail.rdc1.tn.home.com@home.com> for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 06:48:25 -0700 Message-ID: <377CC327.88A966B0@home.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 08:48:23 -0500 From: Kat & Kent X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG hair References: <01ae01bec424$dbf9cac0$b94faccf@costume> <3.0.1.16.19990701201100.4d87ceba@popmail.voicenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Kat & Kent Caroline Dechert wrote: > > I, too, have very long, straight, things-fall-out-of-it hair. I've > managed by using roller pins (like very long bobby pins), and by > arranging my hair so that it is always either braided or twisted > in a coil before putting it up. The pins won't slip from braided > hair, and can't slip far through a twisted coil. > > Just be careful to keep the weight centered, or the neck strain > and headaches can be frightful. Most of the time I wear a banana clip or ponytail but I agree that braiding or twisting the hair as you put it into a bun makes the bobby pins work *much* better...you can also get away with those lovely pins that look like chopsticks (my mom has been known to use a pencil when she's busy working! ). Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 08:38:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA16249 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:38:53 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05449; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 07:50:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA04389 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 07:50:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from frey.janrix.com (frey.janrix.com [207.22.155.23]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id HAA04362 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 07:50:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: FROM mercury.janrix.com BY frey.janrix.com ; Fri Jul 02 09:51:09 1999 Received: from kat ([207.22.155.89] (may be forged)) by mercury.janrix.com (2.5 Build 2640 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA00425 for ; Fri, 02 Jul 1999 09:50:11 -0400 Received: by kat with Microsoft Mail id <01BEC46F.41AE2BA0@kat>; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:42:53 -0400 Message-ID: <01BEC46F.41AE2BA0@kat> From: kat To: "'Historic Costume list'" Subject: H-COST: Hunting kilt? Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:16:13 -0400 Encoding: 10 TEXT Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: kat A friend of mine was recently talking with some members of the 42nd at a local re-enactment. He is seriously considering adopting a Scots persona. Several members of the 42nd recommended a hunting kilt as a way to get started. This is evidently an unpleated kilt -- i.e. fabric just wrapped around the lower body. Has anyone else ever heard of such a beast? If so, can you direct me to any reference or time period? Kat Hargus owner, Making Time www.makingtime.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 08:49:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA16476 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:49:58 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07276; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:02:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA06708 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:01:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rrnet.com (root@rrnet.com [206.11.160.5]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA06617 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:01:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from john (white.cat.rrnet.com [206.11.160.221]) by rrnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA22781 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:01:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907021401.JAA22781@rrnet.com> X-Sender: baird@rrnet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 09:01:17 -0500 To: h-costume@indra.com From: "J,K,S&A Baird" Subject: H-COST: long hair Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "J,K,S&A Baird" Maybe everyone already knows this, but until I tried it, I couldn't keep my hair up for more than a few minutes: when using bobby pins, cross each pin with another to make an X shape. One pin holds the other one in. Even my thick hair can be held by only 4 pins this way, whereas previously 20 didn't do the job. Kim _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 08:54:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA16648 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:54:49 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08248; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:06:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA07804 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:06:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from RBAD59.RBACRXCLU.BAS.ROCHE.COM (gw.bas.roche.com [196.3.50.241]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA07790 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:05:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com (rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com [145.245.211.139]) by Roche.COM (PMDF V5.2-31 #33472) with ESMTP id <01JD3F8ATGYY9EMVJR@Roche.COM> for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 16:04:13 +0200 Received: by rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <3B8AW8M1>; Fri, 02 Jul 1999 16:04:10 +0200 Content-return: allowed Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 16:04:09 +0200 From: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Subject: RE: H-COST: Elizabethan sailors To: "'h-costume@indra.com'" Message-id: <431EB483DFB4D111A2D50000F843C5C401009DFA@RWEMSEM2> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Tough not a "proper" costume source there is a film called "Seven Seas to Calais" which is about Drake. It shows the costumes worn by sailors when out at sea and in port. might be worth a look if you can get hold of a copy. Rachel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 09:09:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA16859 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:09:08 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10120; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:21:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA10294 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:20:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web808.mail.yahoo.com (web808.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.68]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id IAA10284 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:20:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19990702142411.8320.rocketmail@web808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.247.217.34] by web808.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 02 Jul 1999 07:24:11 PDT Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 07:24:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Sarah Toney Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilt? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Sarah Toney I have HEARD of this, but I don't have any resources... the explaination I heard was that it took less time to make unpleated, and since they were "abused", why spend scads of time on a piece of clothing that is just going to be destroyed. Sarah --- kat wrote: > > -Poster: kat > > A friend of mine was recently talking with some > members of the 42nd at a > local re-enactment. He is seriously considering > adopting a Scots persona. > Several members of the 42nd recommended a hunting > kilt as a way to get > started. This is evidently an unpleated kilt -- i.e. > fabric just wrapped > around the lower body. Has anyone else ever heard of > such a beast? If so, > can you direct me to any reference or time period? > > Kat Hargus > owner, Making Time > www.makingtime.com > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 09:37:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA17335 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:37:03 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA13096; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:48:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA15638 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:48:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from april.dnaco.net (april.dnaco.net [207.238.206.9]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA15586 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:48:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kirk.dnaco.net (aleed@kirk.dnaco.net [207.238.206.3]) by april.dnaco.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA17655 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (aleed@localhost) by kirk.dnaco.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA02859 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:48:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: kirk.dnaco.net: aleed owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:48:08 -0400 (EDT) From: aleed To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan sailors In-Reply-To: <002701bec433$299417a0$b99ba6d0@brand> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: aleed The Kentwell website has pictures of a common sailor & ships navigator, as well as other Elizabethan gentry & folk, at http://www2.shef.ac.uk/misc/personal/cs1jwh/kentwell/index.html#pictures They're good. Drea On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, J. Gregory wrote: > Hello! > > Does anyone know where we could find information on the clothing of sea captains, sailors or middle class men in Elizabethan England? Any suggestions of books or websites would be most welcome. Or perhaps a movie where the costuming was good? (Yes, I know these are very few, and VERY far between!) > > We have found many portraits of Drake dressed to impress the queen, but I'm certain he didn't wear all of that when he was busily ravaging Spanish shipping lanes. So what did real people wear day-to-day? My husband has found the lack of information quite frustrating. :) (He HATES ruffs!) > > Thanks! > J. Gregory > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > "We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could > produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the > Internet, we know this is not true." > -Robert Wilensky, University of California > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 10:00:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA17702 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:00:16 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17122; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:11:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA20701 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:11:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from RBAD33.RBACRXCLU.BAS.ROCHE.COM (mail-external-basel.bas.roche.com [196.3.50.190]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA20624 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:11:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com (rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com [145.245.211.139]) by Roche.COM (PMDF V5.2-31 #33472) with ESMTP id <01JD3HI1056G9DFHR4@Roche.COM> for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 17:09:20 +0200 Received: by rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <3B8AW06F>; Fri, 02 Jul 1999 17:09:17 +0200 Content-return: allowed Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 17:04:53 +0200 From: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Subject: H-COST: Kentwell To: "'h-costume@indra.com'" Message-id: <431EB483DFB4D111A2D50000F843C5C401009DFB@RWEMSEM2> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id KAA17702 Status: O -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" I was actually at Kentwell on Saturday, the year this time is 1520. I have to say that I was very disappointed, so much so that I have scrapped plans to participate next year (1578). The costumes are not as authentic as you would think, elastic was spotted along with bluetack holding signs up! It was evident that some people had really worked hard on their costumes but there were plenty more that let the whole thing down. Having had some of the descriptions from Kentwell on how to make these costumes they seem to be well researched but I would need to go through some more before I pronounced a judgement on them. For anyone planning to visit Kentwell the entry cost of £11.25 quite frankly wasn't justified. Rachel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 10:10:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA17943 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:10:32 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19093; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:22:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA23261 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:21:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jefferson.patriot.net (root@jefferson.patriot.net [209.249.176.3]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA23225 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:21:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [206.151.9.17] (th-0-8.patriot.net [206.151.9.17] (may be forged)) by jefferson.patriot.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22413 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:21:44 -0400 Message-Id: <199907021521.LAA22413@jefferson.patriot.net> Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG hair Date: Fri, 2 Jul 99 11:24:35 -0000 x-sender: aquazoo@mail.patriot.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Someone pointed out that she could not find the info on subscribing to the Long Hair discussion list. Go to , to the section called "info", and scroll to the bottom of that page. I hope to see some of you on the list! We can talk about long hair and what type of clothes look best with it. :) -Carol Kocian _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 10:42:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA18521 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:42:03 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24373; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:52:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA27746 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:39:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp5.jps.net (smtp5.jps.net [209.63.224.55]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA27584 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:39:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [209.63.113.163] (209-63-113-163.sea.jps.net [209.63.113.163]) by smtp5.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA03238 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907021539.IAA03238@smtp5.jps.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.0c (197) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 08:38:49 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilt? From: "R.L. Shep" To: h-costume@indra.com Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "R.L. Shep" Please don't send messages as *attachments*... I refuse to open them That is what *cut and paste* was invented for. Thank you ~!~ R.L.Shep http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks ---------- >From: kat >To: "'Historic Costume list'" >Subject: H-COST: Hunting kilt? >Date: Fri, Jul 2, 1999, 6:16 AM > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 11:27:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19175 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:27:36 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29377; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:36:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA17111 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:35:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA16970 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:35:28 -0600 (MDT) From: Appin1@aol.com Received: from Appin1@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id nQNa009302 (15545); Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:34:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4dc5d374.24ae43fa@aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:34:02 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #399 To: Margo Anderson , h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL NetMail version 2.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Appin1@aol.com One thing I noticed years ago in buying men's jeans (I almost never wore women's because they weren't long enough)was that Levi's jeans had the skinniest legs of all jeans. Lee Riders made jeans for people with real legs rather than chicken legs. Look carefully at people wearing Levi's & you'll see that most of them have skinny legs. And back then, I had great legs, not heavy, just long. Kathleen Norvell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 12:48:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20603 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:48:19 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09864; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:56:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA07181 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:12:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA07105 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:11:57 -0600 (MDT) From: Appin1@aol.com Received: from Appin1@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id nBKIa27388 (2722); Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:11:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5769c4f6.24ae4cae@aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:11:10 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: stays To: Penny Ladnier , h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL NetMail version 2.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Appin1@aol.com Penny -- I can't tell you the date for tight lacing, but I can tell you about one of the ill effects. I ued to work in a medical library in Philadelphia & there was a medical museum in the same building (the Mutter Museum). The museum exhibited a female skeleton from the late 19th century, which had very constricted bottom ribs from tight lacing. The rest of the ribs had been thrust upward and slightly forward. The rib cage seemed to be more rounded than a normal ribcage. Hope this information helps. Kathleen Norvell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 12:48:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20607 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:48:22 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09928; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:57:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA04474 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:06:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zeus.directcon.net (root@zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA04285 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:05:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r4p19.directcon.net [206.170.184.68]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA02727 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 09:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907021604.JAA02727@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan, again Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson >One possible influencing factor; is this for a Puritan? If so, plain is >bettter. Not neccesarily. Take a look at portraits of wealthy merchant class men, many of whom were Puritans, and you'll see very rich fabrics, furs, fine linen, and lots of trim. They tended to the all black and nothing but texture look. The totally plain black suit with the large linen collor is from the next century, despite what you see at Ren Faires. they do it there for theatrical purposes. When I made my costume for Alice Montague, the Queen's Silkwoman, I used all black in linen, embroidered silk, organza, and silk-look trims, and it was very effective. Margo Anderson "One Tough Costumer" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 12:49:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20617 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:49:54 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10319; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:59:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA24445 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:48:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA24304 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:48:05 -0600 (MDT) From: Appin1@aol.com Received: from Appin1@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id xKSDa27372 (2717); Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2a484ef4.24ae468c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:45:00 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Ivanhoe and Rowena To: "Henk 't Jong" , h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL NetMail version 2.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Appin1@aol.com Henk -- I have seen several versions of "Ivanhoe" and found that the costumes from the 1980(?) Anthony Andrews version were the best. They came from Bermans & Nathans, a big costume house in England (now Angels & Nathans, I believe) and as far as I could tell, came from Vol. II of the Herbert Norris books. Not the most reliable, but better than many others available bak then. I saw the latest version, albeit late at night and the costumes were dreadful (must have come from the same crew that outfitted the "Brother Cadfael" series). Not only that, but all the Saxons were blonde and looked alike! How much research rsearch would have made those costumes decent? Frankly, not much. I'm a semi-pro costumer & I could have done better. Kathleen Norvell "How many costumes do you think I can pack?" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 13:12:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA21080 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:12:04 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14027; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:21:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA24264 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:21:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtpa.gateway.net (relayf.gateway.net [208.230.117.254]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA24258 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:21:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer (1Cust37.tnt4.princess-anne.va.da.uu.net [153.37.231.37]) by smtpa.gateway.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA17470 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 14:21:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001d01bec4b8$33985380$25e72599@oemcomputer> From: "Joel Thompson" To: "costume" Subject: H-COST: Re: Hunting kilt Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 14:25:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id NAA21080 Status: O -Poster: "Joel Thompson" Are you perhaps referring to a great kilt. I only know of 2 types of kilts, the modern kilt, where the pleats are sewn into place and it generally looks like a skirt (forgive me!), and the old great kilt, which is indeed pleated and wrapped around the body and belted, with the excess drawn up and pinned on the shoulder. This is very easy to do. Start with about 4-5 yards of heavy wool. Gauge this by the size of the man. Any muted color will do. It should be no less that 48" wide. Open it up, and spread it on the ground...go to one end, and begin making pleats the entire width of the fabric, about 4'' wide. Keep doing this across the length of the material. You can leave about 2-3 feet at the far end unpleated. Take a leather belt and pass it under the kilt, making sure that it buckles the way you want it to. Now lay down on the kilt, with the bottom edge about knee level and the pleated side on your left side. Wrap the pleated side of the kilt over you first, then the other side. That means left side first, then right side. Pull the belt up and buckle it. Stand up. You may need someone to help you with the rest of this. Arrange the top of the material so that the tops of the corners meet on the left shoulder. You will need a large brooch to secure the fabric, but if you don't have this, a leather thong will do. Arrange the folds of fabric to lay properly. It is common to use these natural "pouches" to hold a variety of things, and it does stay put. Have someone adjust the length, it should be right at knee level all around. I gave directions for fastening the kilt on the left side. It can also be done on the right. It depends on what the person is doing. A right handed sword fighter wants it to be fastened on the left, but I have seen a bagpiper with it done on the right. It interferred with his pipes when it was on the left side. It's worth mentioning here that the clan tartans as we know them did not come into existence until the late 17th century or so. Prior to that, different localities produced different plaids, but it definitely wasn't an identifier. So that means that you are free to choose whatever you like, including solids. Just remember to keep it muted and rather faded looking. If you research the modern tartans, almost all of them have 3 different versions, regular, dress, and hunting, and also sometimes ancient. Another feature of this kilt is that when it was time to sleep, all one had to do was unwrap it and it became a blanket. "Braveheart" has some excellent examples of this type of kilt. There are also some good publications available. Hope this is what you were looking for! Alianora VMAA _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 13:57:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA21832 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:57:24 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20702; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:07:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA03063 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:06:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA03039 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:06:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([194.222.199.37]) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 1108du-000EJf-0B for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 19:06:34 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:01:20 +0100 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan sailors In-Reply-To: <002701bec433$299417a0$b99ba6d0@brand> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.03a <$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD> Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Jean Waddie I haven't been to try and find a website myself, but last year(I think) there was a group sailed a reconstruction of The Matthew from Bristol to Newfoundland. I think it was for the anniversary of -erm- the finding of Newfoundland?? Anyway, they did the whole thing in costume, with period food and equipment, apart from safety items like radio and navigation. There was a TV programme about it and it looked very good. You could try to find something on that. Jean >Hello! > >Does anyone know where we could find information on the clothing of sea >captains, sailors or middle class men in Elizabethan England? Any suggestions >of books or websites would be most welcome. Or perhaps a movie where the >costuming was good? (Yes, I know these are very few, and VERY far between!) > >We have found many portraits of Drake dressed to impress the queen, but I'm >certain he didn't wear all of that when he was busily ravaging Spanish shipping >lanes. So what did real people wear day-to-day? My husband has found the lack >of information quite frustrating. :) (He HATES ruffs!) > >Thanks! >J. Gregory >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >"We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could > produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the > Internet, we know this is not true." > -Robert Wilensky, University of California >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -- Jean Waddie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 15:41:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA23661 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 15:40:59 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05238; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 14:46:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA21237 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 14:45:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA21220 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 14:45:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from test (ip203-187.cc.interlog.com [207.34.203.187]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA27318 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 16:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990702131926.009ecdd0@mail.interlog.com> X-Sender: dnunn@mail.interlog.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 13:19:26 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Danielle Nunn Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG hair In-Reply-To: <01ae01bec424$dbf9cac0$b94faccf@costume> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, >I too have hip length very straight and fine hair. Everything falls out >of my hair...Believe me it did hold my hair in place even after I took >all the pins out. I don't have hair that long but, I do have that problem. I have "baby hair" it is so fine, strait, and slippery NOTHING stays in it. For my prom (many years ago) my hairdress used "ICE mist" by Joico. He used a ton of it but it worked. He sculpted the front of my hair into a really neat wave and put the back in a chignon. I stayed in place throughout the entire evening. The only downside was - he said not to put pressure on my hair or it could BREAK! It also took 10 washes to get all the junk out (yes I was counting). But it kept EVERYTHING in place. Cheers, Danielle _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 15:58:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA23880 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 15:58:24 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07074; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 15:00:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA23917 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 14:59:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mailjay.creighton.edu (mailjay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.126]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA23884 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 14:59:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brujne.creighton.edu (brujne.creighton.edu [147.134.201.104]) by mailjay.creighton.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA18160; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 15:59:19 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907022059.PAA18160@mailjay.creighton.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Cindy Abel" To: Margo Anderson , h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 15:56:32 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan, again Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199907021604.JAA02727@zeus.directcon.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Cindy Abel" And even owning anything black now is high maintanance--I've a Susan Bristol black cotton jacket with Tudorish look machine embroidery and while it is washable it is a total dust, cat hair, etc magnet and has to be hand vacuumed and cleared of everything before ironing and wearing if I wash it with anything else. I'm sure those who wore all that black had servants who did nothing but care for all that black, to say nothing of the high costs of the dyes and the care it took in dyeing, least one destroy the cloth from a dye with too strong a mordant or other chemical. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 16:46:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24795 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 16:46:36 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14716; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 15:55:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA04832 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 15:55:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id PAA04819 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 15:55:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from kayherb@juno.com) by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EEJ8H89J; Fri, 02 Jul 1999 17:54:34 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: stays Message-ID: <19981009.215845.5231.6.kayherb@juno.com> References: <5769c4f6.24ae4cae@aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-5 From: "Kathryn L. Herb" Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 17:54:34 EDT Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" Ill effects of tight lacing? Try eating something hot in a rush after lacing. Fortunately my brother knew to loosen the laces slooooowly after I hit the ground in a dead faint. Kay kayherb@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 17:27:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25523 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 17:27:29 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19349; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 16:37:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA12558 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 16:36:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (sendmail@mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA12548 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 16:36:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svea.execpc.com (tigella-2-118.mdm.mad.execpc.com [169.207.108.246]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.1) id RAA29142 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 17:36:53 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19990702173657.0069f218@mail.execpc.com> X-Sender: svea@mail.execpc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 17:36:57 -0500 To: h-costume@indra.com From: John and/or Barbara Bailey Subject: Re: H-COST:OT:mundane hair styles for REALLY LONG hair In-Reply-To: <199907011554.IAA08263@zeus.directcon.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: John and/or Barbara Bailey At 08:54 7/1/99 -0700, Margo Anderson wrote: >But how do you get it to stay on top of your head? I like this style, but >whenever I try to wear it, the bun slides to the back, or worse, to one side. > >Margo Make a ponytail far to the front of your head; forward of the ear to ear line (do the bend at the waist and brush it all forward thing.) Mine is usually only about three inches back of my front center hairline. Use a ponytail rubberband-I've never managed to make the style stay without the rubberband as an anchor. I run the bobbie-pins, or at least a couple of them, through the hair that's gathered into the band between the band and the scalp. Make the coil flat and wide, not high. You don't want a handle, you want a cow-pattie shape. (Sorry, best analogy I can come up with 8-) ) Barbara _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 17:55:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25998 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 17:55:45 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22742; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 17:06:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA17406 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 17:05:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay4.hawaii.edu (relay4.hawaii.edu [128.171.94.12]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id RAA17385 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 17:05:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from uhunix1.its.hawaii.edu ([128.171.44.6]) by relay4.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <373995(9)>; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:05:23 -1000 Received: from localhost by uhunix1.its.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <135716(3)>; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:00:28 -1000 Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:00:12 -1000 From: Lisa Leong X-Sender: lisaleon@uhunix1 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: LONG hair In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990702131926.009ecdd0@mail.interlog.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Lisa Leong > For my prom (many years ago) my hairdress used "ICE mist" by Joico. I have to second the suggestion of ICE mist. The stuff is tough. However, it does give you the shellac-ed look. annora _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 20:01:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA28136 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:01:41 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA05929; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 19:10:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA04958 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 19:10:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id TAA04950 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 19:10:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from airmail.net from [207.136.21.168] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.402) with esmtp for sender: id ; Fri, 2 Jul 99 20:10:23 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <377D60CC.20880E3F@airmail.net> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 20:01:01 -0500 From: Megan & David Schmidt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: stays References: <5769c4f6.24ae4cae@aol.com> <19981009.215845.5231.6.kayherb@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Megan & David Schmidt That's great that your brother thought to undo the laces slowly. I am a nurse and NOVICE costumer. It really would never have occured to me that doing it slowly would be an issue. Of course, when I get ladies out of bed the first time after they have had a baby, we do that VERY SLOWLY. Makes sense! Megan Kathryn L. Herb wrote: > -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" > > Ill effects of tight lacing? Try eating something hot in a rush after > lacing. Fortunately my brother knew to loosen the laces slooooowly after > I hit the ground in a dead faint. > > Kay > kayherb@juno.com > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 20:41:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA28757 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:41:30 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA09743; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 19:46:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA09176 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 19:45:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from phantom.golden.net (phantom.golden.net [199.166.210.30]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA09162 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 19:45:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [209.183.133.162] (AS52-29-162.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.133.162]) by phantom.golden.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10447 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 21:45:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 21:45:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: lgsteph@pop.golden.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Gary Stephens Subject: H-COST: gold embroidery thread Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Gary Stephens Greetings Embroiderers! I have come into a limited, but excellent, stock of 24k gold purl in two sizes and jaceron in two sizes, embroidery threads. As any of you who have embroidered with gold will know, these threads are expensive and difficult to acquire, Kreinik being the only manufacturer. I can easily attest to the fact the threads I have in my possession are of equal, if not superior, quality to Kreinik bullion. I am offering some of these threads for sale. Normal retail on gold thread runs between $20-$30CDN/strand, which is approximately 30" long. For those who are interested I'm offering strands for $10.00 ea., plus PST and shipping, payable by cheque, money order or Visa to Five Rivers Chapmanry. Please be sure to send along full mailing address and expiry date, if applicable. Please reply off-list to the above e-mail address. Crass commercial message off. Lorina -------------------------------------- Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage, period furniture & fine hand-sewn garments ~ e-mail: lgsteph@golden.net ~ website: http://www.historicmerchants.com/fiverivers _Touring the Giant's Rib_ ~ http://web.idirect.com/~canuck/stephens/stephen.html _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 2 21:02:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA29076 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 21:02:28 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11641; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:11:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA11895 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:10:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA11887 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:10:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from kayherb@juno.com) by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EEKN5LL2; Fri, 02 Jul 1999 22:09:48 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: stays Message-ID: <19981010.001530.5231.2.kayherb@juno.com> References: <5769c4f6.24ae4cae@aol.com> <19981009.215845.5231.6.kayherb@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,6-11 From: "Kathryn L. Herb" Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 22:09:48 EDT Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" Somewhere along the line I passed on the information about slow unlacing to him and my mom, since they often experienced my panic to get ready for an event when I was visiting. Never expected to need them to use it!! They knew that I'd do bodily harm if they cut all that lucet cord after I'd worked so hard on it! The sudden rearrangement of internal body parts could do some harm. Kay kayherb@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 00:23:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA32331 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 00:23:42 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA27351; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 23:33:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id XAA04448 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 23:33:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from scorpion.netspace.net.au (scorpion.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.106]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id XAA04438 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 23:33:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from whirlwind.netspace.net.au (whirlwind.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.70]) by scorpion.netspace.net.au (8.9.1/8.9.1/NS) with ESMTP id PAA17813 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:33:04 +1000 (EST) Received: from netspace.net.au.netspace.net.au (dialup-t2-134.Melbourne.netspace.net.au [210.15.192.134]) by whirlwind.netspace.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.1/NS) with ESMTP id PAA04013 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:33:03 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199907030533.PAA04013@whirlwind.netspace.net.au> From: "Christopher Ballis" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Hunting kilt Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:17:30 +1000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" Ach! It woold be a dissssasssterrrrr if ye went -ahuntin' an' noothin' werrrrr kilt. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 05:49:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA03670 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 05:49:41 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA10715; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 05:00:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id EAA18438 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 04:59:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.rma.edu (root@smtp.rma.edu [207.0.141.48]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id EAA18428 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 04:59:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from malruck (USR1-73.rmaonline.net [207.48.171.73]) by smtp.rma.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA12295 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 06:59:45 -0400 Message-ID: <007f01bec542$7eeb0f00$49ab30cf@malruck> From: "Joseph & Christine" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilt? Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 06:54:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Joseph & Christine" Kat, Joel and list, What you are describing sounds like a plaid (pronounced "played"). From the Osprey book "Highland Clansman 1689-1746" (not the best of references, but all I have at hand: "...the belted plaid, traditionally comprising six double ells of tartan material. At this point is should be pointed out that a Scots ell measured only 37 in. and that a double ell was twice the usual width, not twice the length." "Even so, six yards of material is quite a length, but Stewart of Garth quite explicitly states that it was folded in half to double the thickness before putting it on." Most modern Scot interpreters that I have seen do not fold their plaids in half before pleating them (I note that Joel does not do so), but having done so, I find it works much better, and is considerably warmer. I take a couple more exceptions to Joel's description (not that there is necessarily a right way or wrong way to put on a bunch of cloth ) - all the period paintings I've seen show the bottom of the plaid should come to about a hand span above the knee. And rather than trying to pass the belt under the plaid after it's folded, I find it much easier to lay the belt out first, and do the pleating over it. As to needing help adjusting it - wot's th' matter, laddie? Kin ye no dress yersel'? I'd be very interested to know of any documentation of clan tartans prior to the 19th C. Scots revival courtesy of Queen Victoria. Prior to that, I was under the impression that tartans had no association with a given clan, but rather to a given locale (close, but not quite), and that the "ancient" and "hunting" tartans are pure fabrication based on what somebody thought they "might" have looked like. But if this is not so, I would gladly learn better. Regards, Joseph Ruckman _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 06:19:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA04151 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 06:19:12 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA11619; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 05:30:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id FAA20964 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 05:29:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mb06.swip.net (mb06.swip.net [193.12.122.210]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id FAA20946 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 05:29:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [130.244.78.160] (dialup78-3-32.swipnet.se [130.244.78.160]) by mb06.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25752 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:29:34 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: md21199@dredd.swip.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BEC3E0.6E5F9100@kat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:27:01 +0100 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Ninni Pettersson Subject: Re: H-COST: fabric sources Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Ninni Pettersson At 21.28 +0100 99-07-01, kat wrote: >I was also told there is a company in England making a wool superfine, >cochineal dyed, that is back ordered for nearly a year. I saw/handled some >of the wool, and it looks too 'hot' for cochineal -- almost edging on the >neon. I don't know if this is the real deal and the other cochineal fabrics >I have seen are a poorer red, or if this is a commercial dye that >supposedly looks like cochineal. the fabric is for a British officer's >coat. I of course don't know anything about this specific fabric, but my aunt and I dyed some handspun wool with cochineal about 10 years ago (It was supposed to become a sweater. It never did and now spends a shameful existence in one of my cupboards :-) and some of that turned out *very* vivid indeed, and it still is! I don't remember what we used as mordant, alun (whatever that is called in English) probably. /Ninni (Terribly behind on things e-maily, not to mention that promised webpage with my Tudor Doll! The photos are done, but they're still waiting to be developed . . .) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 10:01:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA07742 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 10:01:04 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21957; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 09:11:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA11149 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 09:10:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from deimos.worldonline.nl (deimos.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.136]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA11130 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 09:10:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from worldonline.nl (leda.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.135]) by deimos.worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02892 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 17:10:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pc2 (vp189-171.worldonline.nl [195.241.189.171]) by worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA20027 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 17:10:27 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199907031510.RAA20027@worldonline.nl> From: "Henk 't Jong" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan sailors Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 17:11:52 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi List, Jean wrote: > I haven't been to try and find a website myself, but last year(I think) > there was a group sailed a reconstruction of The Matthew from Bristol to > Newfoundland. I think it was for the anniversary of -erm- the finding > of Newfoundland?? Anyway, they did the whole thing in costume, with > period food and equipment, apart from safety items like radio and > navigation. There was a TV programme about it and it looked very good. > You could try to find something on that. This was in 1997. In 1497 father and son Cabot, John and Sebastian, sailed the Matthew to what's now Canada and founded Newfoundland. I saw the documentary and although the ship was a very beautiful copy, the costumes didn't stuck me as particularly authentic, especially when they wore yellow plastic 'oilskins' over them ;-) Anyway, they were a century earlier than was asked, Henk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 10:17:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA07928 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 10:17:58 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23129; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 09:28:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA13027 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 09:28:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.gateway.net (relay9.gateway.net [208.230.117.248]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA13005 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 09:28:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer (1Cust166.tnt4.princess-anne.va.da.uu.net [153.37.231.166]) by smtp4.gateway.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA07567 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:28:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <004801bec569$12267220$a6e72599@oemcomputer> From: "Joel Thompson" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilt? Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:31:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id KAA07928 Status: O -Poster: "Joel Thompson" Hi Joe & listers: You've brought up some interesting points. "...the belted plaid, traditionally comprising six double ells of tartan material. At this point is should be pointed out that a Scots ell measured only 37 in. and that a double ell was twice the usual width, not twice the length." First, if a Scots ell is 37 in. long, is it also 37 in. wide? "Even so, six yards of material is quite a length, but Stewart of Garth quite explicitly states that it was folded in half to double the thickness before putting it on."Most modern Scot interpreters that I have seen do not fold their plaids in half before pleating them (I note that Joel does not do so), but having done so, I find it works much better, and is considerably warmer. Is this folded in half lengthwise? If not, how do you get it up on the shoulder? If so, how do you get it ALL up on the shoulder? That seems like a lot of fabric to fasten on the shoulder. Also, once this is pleated around the body, you will be *plenty* warm! We had 3 guys swordfighting in great kilts, and never had a case of the thing falling apart, slipping, or anything else. They all reported that this was the most comfortable garb that they had ever worn and are now devoted to it! Note: I recommended that they each purchase 4-5 yards for their kilts. This seems to be ampleplenty for the average size man. Joel, (my husband) is 6'3", and around 270lb. He needs a tad more. ....should come to about a hand span above the knee. Yes, you're right. Thanks for clarifying that. And rather than trying to pass the belt under the plaid after it's folded, I find it much easier to lay the belt out first, and do the pleating over it. As to needing help adjusting it - wot's th' matter, laddie? Kin ye no dress yersel'? Yes, of course. I was merely suggesting that the first couple of times that one does this, it's often necessary to have someone help you with it. Like anything else that we choose to wear, the first time we put it on, there is often a feeling of " Is this right?" After a couple of tries, one soon figures out the easiest way to do it, and instictively knows when it's not right and how to correct it. I'd be very interested to know of any documentation of clan tartans prior to the 19th C. Scots revival courtesy of Queen Victoria. Prior to that, I was under the impression that tartans had no association with a given clan, but rather to a given locale (close, but not quite), and that the "ancient" and "hunting" tartans are pure fabrication based on what somebody thought they "might" have looked like. But if this is not so, I would gladly learn better. Yes, that is what I had mentioned. There is a difference between "the cloth that is made by a particular town, so that is what everybody wears", and "we are a clan from this place, so we all wear this plaid". However, it is an easy step to see how one evolved into the other. But that was a political move, and came much later.Like you, I find myself sorely in need of a good reference book. Unfortunately, the ones that will answer this are still packed away( I recently moved) It may very well be that the clan tartan system was a product of Queen Victoria's reign. After all, much of our medieval "knowledge" came from that same time. It's taken a lot of research and rethinking of things to get past all that. However, I do know that during the Jacobite uprisings, the Scots lost the rights to play their pipes. I had believed that the tartans were also outlawed here. These (and other) actions were designed to completely repress and fragment the Scots. This is one of the reasons that the Scots do not love the English. I've never heard that the "hunting" and "ancient" versions of plaids were fabricated (excuse the pun!) Their colors are so muted, that I've always believed them to be the precursors to todays versions. In other words, what was once created using plant dyes, which are known to fade rapidly, are now being made with chemical dyes, which are brighter and more colorfast. Also, poor, rural post-Medieval Scotland would not have likely had access to the exotic dyestuffs available to the wealthier people. I think of the "ancient" or "hunting" versions as being more suitable to 1) everyday type wear, and 2) something more likely to be worn while hunting(duh!). I think of the bright colors as suitable for clan indentification in a battle, and also for "Sunday best". I would not want to wear my Clan Buchanan (again, forgive me!) every day. It's so bright! But I find the "ancient" and "hunting" versions of many plaids to be earthy and soothing. Just my humble opinion. But that doesn't mean that I'm not wrong. That's why I join these lists, to learn and get other people's perspectives. Most of my historical interest lies in Medieval and Viking, and it was only when we joined a Highland bagpipe band a couple of years ago that I started learning more about this subject. Factoid: It takes 8 yards of fabric to pleat into a modern kilt! Kat, I hope this all makes sense, and helps you with your friend's new persona. Best, Alianora VMAA _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 10:55:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08570 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 10:55:36 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26239; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 10:06:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA16862 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 10:06:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.vci.net (smtp.vci.net [207.162.160.12]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA16849 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 10:05:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vci.net (ppp-174-237.vci.net [207.162.174.237]) by smtp.vci.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17917 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:05:48 -0500 Message-ID: <377E356A.BFC2A4B4@vci.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 11:08:11 -0500 From: "schuck@vci.net" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr-FR,de,ru,es-AR,sv MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Re: recommended reading-- medieval References: <199907031129.FAA20982@indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "schuck@vci.net" Hi all! I'm fairly new to historical costuming, and I was wondering if anybody could recommend good books for researching Medieval period clothing? I am primarily interested in the clothing of western and northern Europe and the British Isles. Also, are there any books or articles that address authentic construction techniques from that period? Thanks so much! Julie schuck@vci.net _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 11:28:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA09060 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:28:52 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28472; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 10:39:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA20340 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 10:39:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.rma.edu (root@smtp.rma.edu [207.0.141.48]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA20326 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 10:39:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from malruck (USR1-75.rmaonline.net [207.48.171.75]) by smtp.rma.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14351 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 12:38:56 -0400 Message-ID: <003e01bec571$dec3c1e0$4bab30cf@malruck> From: "Joseph & Christine" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilt? Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 12:33:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Joseph & Christine" >Hi Joe & listers: Hi Alianora - but it's Joseph, not "Joe." >First, if a Scots ell is 37 in. long, is it also 37 in. wide? Sorry - going back to the same source, "Ordinarily plaiding was woven on a 27 in. width, and two pieces had to be swen together to achieve the normal broadcloth width of 54 in." >Is this folded in half lengthwise? Yes - six yard length is folded to make it three. This means the pleating is a lot easier. >If not, how do you get it up on the shoulder? If so, how do you get it >ALL up on the shoulder? That seems like a lot of fabric to fasten on the shoulder. Think about it a second - whether you fold it or not, all the fabric goes over/fastens on the shoulder. There is another little trick that you left off and that I forgot to mention - once it's belted, you take the corners of the upper portion of the plaid, cross them over and tuck them in the belt behind you. In other words the corner on your left goes around behind you on the right, and vice versa. Then you have a rounded section behind that goes up to the shoulder, or you can pull part of it over the left shoulder from the back, and part of it around the front to the left shoulder, and tie or pin it. I use a shoe buckle to fasten it. I have some pictures on my computer at work which may help, but that'll have to wait until Tuesday. >Also, once this is pleated around the body, you will be *plenty* warm! True - but bear in mind, we're not in the Scottish Highlands - at least I'm not. It takes a lot more to be plenty warm there than it does here in highlands of Virgina! It's about 95 outside and I have no desire to don my plaid at the moment. >....should come to about a hand span above the knee. >Yes, you're right. Thanks for clarifying that. My pleasure. >As to needing help adjusting it - wot's th' >matter, laddie? Kin ye no dress yersel'? >Yes, of course. Sorry, just kidding, hence the (Double-Grin.) (good stuff snipped) >Their colors are so muted, that I've always believed them to be the precursors to >todays versions. In other words, what was once created using plant dyes, which are >known to fade rapidly, are now being made with chemical dyes, which are brighter >and more colorfast. That's exactly the story they tell - "This is how these would have looked if plant dyes had been used." Never mind the fact that the patterns under discussion may or may not ( and probably did not) have existed in the first place! There is a very famous painting which you have probably seen of the Battle of Culloden (Fine brave Scots charging from the left, the Forces of Darkness... I mean, the British soldiers... from the right ). The Scots portrayed in this painting were painted from prisoners after Culloden, and the artist as I understand it, went to great pains to get the patterns of the plaids right. Not a one of them matches a modern day tartan. Again, from the same book, quoting George Buchannan in 1581: "They delight in variegated garments, especially stripes, and their favourite colours are purple and blue. Their ancestors wore plaids of many colours, and numbers still retain this custom, but the majority now in their dress prefer a dark brown, imitating nearly the leaves of the heather, that when lying upon the heath in the day, they may not be discovered by the appearance of their clothes." Sixteenth Century camoflage! And having read that, I obtained from G-Street Fabrics a brown blue and green sort of plaid fabric, which I call my "hide in the heather" plaid. Again, the pix will have to wait until Tuesday, if anyone wants them. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 12:09:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA09741 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 12:09:47 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02275; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:20:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA25101 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:20:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.gateway.net (relay9.gateway.net [208.230.117.248]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA25055 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:19:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer (1Cust47.tnt4.princess-anne.va.da.uu.net [153.37.231.47]) by smtp4.gateway.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA04300 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:19:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001201bec578$acdc03c0$2fe72599@oemcomputer> From: "Joel Thompson" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilt? Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:22:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id MAA09741 Status: O -Poster: "Joel Thompson" Hi again Joseph and listers! Thank you so much for this very interesting and enlightening dialog. Since we seem to have nothing further to add to the construction of the great kilt, may I suggest that we take this private? I would love to see your photos, and I have several that I can send along to you as well. Great fun! BTW- "The Forces of Darkness" .....ROFLOL!!! BTW2- Hey, I live in Virginia too! Small world. 8^) Best, Alia VMAA _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 12:33:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10210 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 12:33:46 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04511; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:44:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA27843 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:44:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mongoose.slip.net (mongoose.slip.net [207.171.193.14]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA27817 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:44:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [207.171.230.136] (helo=default) by mongoose.slip.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #4) id 110TpZ-0002JE-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 10:44:02 -0700 X-Sender: cjcannon@pop.slip.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 10:44:30 -0700 To: h-costume@indra.com From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilt? In-Reply-To: <003e01bec571$dec3c1e0$4bab30cf@malruck> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 12:33 PM 7/3/99, "Joseph & Christine" wrote: >That's exactly the story they tell - "This is how these would have looked if >plant dyes had been used." Never mind the fact that the patterns under >discussion may or may not ( and probably did not) have existed in the first >place! Some of the finds in archaeological digs have been of muted green checked or plaid cloth. One I am recalling, though I do not recall from what book, nor which find at the moment [I catalog books for a living--it's hard to recall so many...sorry, everyone...my sincere apologies--short term memory is full up... .], was a soft, mossy green with a dark brown or black sett that looked like a plaid to me. I've seen another that was a deep camel or coffee with cream-type color that also had a darker pairing of very narrow and slightly wider 'plaid' pattern in it. -- Carol _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 12:46:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10389 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 12:46:01 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05582; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:56:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA29125 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:56:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tn.home.com [24.2.7.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA29118 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:56:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from home.com ([24.1.35.138]) by mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990703175617.RQBR559.mail.rdc1.tn.home.com@home.com> for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 10:56:17 -0700 Message-ID: <377E4EBC.B94CF01F@home.com> Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 12:56:12 -0500 From: Kat & Kent X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilt? References: <004801bec569$12267220$a6e72599@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Kat & Kent Just a side note on ancient vs modern plaids...the modern Clan Bruce tartan is muted while the ancient is...is...well, the only way to put it is florescent! Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 13:28:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA11025 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:28:17 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08329; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 12:39:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA03876 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 12:38:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.snet.net (smtp.snet.net [204.60.6.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA03847 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 12:38:30 -0600 (MDT) From: snowfire@mail.snet.net Received: from [204.60.11.59] (hrfr-sh7-port59.snet.net [204.60.11.59]) by smtp.snet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/SNET-bmx-1.3/D-1.7/O-1.6) with SMTP id OAA14292 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:38:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907031838.OAA14292@smtp.snet.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 14:34:35 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilt? To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <377E4EBC.B94CF01F@home.com> X-Mailer: SPRYNET Mail 32-Bit Mail Version: 05.00.06.72 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: snowfire@mail.snet.net -Poster: Elysant This post makes me think. 1. Weren't the ancient Celts known for their bright colours? If so why would the more ancient plaids be muted? If the Celts did wear bright colours, it seems to make sense that the more ancient plaid spoken of below would have been brightly coloured wouldn't it? 2. Is it because we're talking "hunting" plaids that they might have been muted - for camouflage or something? The colours described seem to suggest this... Elysant On Sat, 03 Jul 1999, Kat & Kent wrote: > >-Poster: Kat & Kent > >Just a side note on ancient vs modern plaids...the modern Clan Bruce >tartan is muted while the ancient is...is...well, the only way to put it >is florescent! > >Kat > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 14:22:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA11942 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:22:12 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11839; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:32:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA09278 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:32:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hpdmgaaa.compuserve.com (dh-img-1.compuserve.com [149.174.206.131]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA09264 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:31:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpdmgaaa.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id PAA20167; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:30:33 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Fantastic fabrics low prices !!!! To: LIST historic costume Cc: LIST SCA arts Message-ID: <199907031530_MC2-7BBF-F401@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id OAA11942 Status: RO -Poster: Melanie Wilson I found these two suppliers they are UK based but B L Joshi does international postage and the other may I'm not sure..... B L Joshi http://www.b.l.joshi.com Brocades, silks, satins, embroidered fabrics THE most beautiful I've seen in a while at prices I can afford !!!!! Croft Mill Tel : 01282 869685 Fax: 01282 870038 Various stuff some good for costume etc others more mundane, a useful contact. Sorry no email or wen page as far as I know. Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 14:42:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA12268 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:42:28 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13388; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:53:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA11367 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:52:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from frey.janrix.com (frey.janrix.com [207.22.155.23]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id NAA11347 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:52:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: FROM mercury.janrix.com BY frey.janrix.com ; Sat Jul 03 15:53:39 1999 Received: from kat ([207.22.155.94] (may be forged)) by mercury.janrix.com (2.5 Build 2640 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA00137 for ; Sat, 03 Jul 1999 15:52:43 -0400 Received: by kat with Microsoft Mail id <01BEC56B.1838C9E0@kat>; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:45:37 -0400 Message-ID: <01BEC56B.1838C9E0@kat> From: kat To: "'Historic Costume list'" Subject: H-COST: Kilts Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:43:27 -0400 Encoding: 12 TEXT Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: kat I am printing every bit of this thread as we speak. I am familiar with the idea of different plaids for hunting and dress. I guess I didn;t make myself very clear. I was looking for verification on a non-pleated kilt, worn for hunting, evidently much like a wrap skirt -- for lack of clearer wording. I have never heard of such a creature, but it was recommended by one of the members of the 42nd Highlanders (re-enactment group). This may be some 20th cent flight of fancy, or a mis-intrepretation of some evidence. Any one got access to McClintock? Kat Hargus owner, Making Time www.makingtime.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 15:09:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA12641 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:09:06 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14490; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:17:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA13454 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:17:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp3.gateway.net (relay8.gateway.net [208.230.117.247]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA13449 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:17:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer (1Cust240.tnt5.princess-anne.va.da.uu.net [208.253.234.240]) by smtp3.gateway.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA19961 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 16:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001c01bec591$6ae86ee0$f0eafdd0@oemcomputer> From: "Joel Thompson" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilt? Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 16:19:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id PAA12641 Status: O -Poster: "Joel Thompson" ---- Never mind the fact that the patterns under >discussion may or may not ( and probably did not) have existed in the first >place! Some of the finds in archaeological digs have been of muted green checked or plaid cloth. ....was a soft, mossy green with a dark brown or black sett that looked like a plaid to me. I've seen another that was a deep camel or coffee with cream-type color that also had a darker pairing of very narrow and slightly wider 'plaid' pattern in it. I agree. Several years ago there was a program on either A&E or Discover, or maybe it was PBS... (yes, the mind *is* the first to go!) about discoveries on the Silk Road. They had found a reddish and blackish piece of wool that for all the world looked like plaid! I believe that they had linked this find with the Viking traders. Which brings up another interesting thread.....I have some friends who are Grade A Vikingologists. They maintain that there is no surviving piece of wool (Viking era folks!) with 2 different colors woven into a pattern. Hmmm....to me, that sounds highly unlikely. We know that they were proficient weavers, making lovely twill, herringbone and tabby, so why not use different color threads to make it even more beautiful. Vikings, like Celts, liked bright colors. Maybe Chimene can shed some light on this one. 8^) So, getting back on the original subject, if you look at books which lists all of the plaids in all of the different colorways, you will see a rainbow of options. If the persona that you are trying to create has strong clan affiliations, you can probably get authentic tartan from Scotland. We just got several bolts of Mackenzie Hunting to make kilts and bagcovers for the band. Not the most striking of choices, but it's a sheriff's department band and we needed to be "understated". Be prepared to pay upwards of $50.00US per yard for it, and to wait months for the more obscure choices. The good news is, if it doesn't really matter, or if you just want to try it and see if you like it, the stuff that you can get at any fabric store will do. Just try to have an eye for "what looks right", and come as close as you can to what you've seen in the books. You can also purchase the whole thing from Chivalry Sports Renaissance Catalog. Doing it that way costs about double the price of buying your own fabric, but you get instructions. Alianora _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 15:17:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA12792 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:17:38 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14835; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:23:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA14058 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:22:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mongoose.slip.net (mongoose.slip.net [207.171.193.14]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA14046 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:22:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [207.171.230.167] (helo=default) by mongoose.slip.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #4) id 110WIv-00054C-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:22:29 -0700 X-Sender: cjcannon@pop.slip.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 13:22:57 -0700 To: h-costume@indra.com From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Subject: Re: H-COST: Kilts In-Reply-To: <01BEC56B.1838C9E0@kat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-Id: Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id PAA12792 Status: O -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 03:43 PM 7/3/99, Kat Hargus wrote asking about kilts. You might try this website, Kat--and others interested... The url is: http://metalab.unc.edu/gaelic/john/greatkilt.html --Carol, aka: Gráinne ingen Domnaill Ildánaig, in the SCA, Inc. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 15:45:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13253 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:45:08 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17124; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:55:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA17107 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:55:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bc.mountain.net (root@BC.Mountain.Net [198.77.1.35]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA17102 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:55:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from woodenporch.com (AM17-47.NewMartinsville-WV.Mountain.Net [198.77.13.246]) by bc.mountain.net (8.9.2/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA24900 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 16:55:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <377E40F3.FC479DAF@woodenporch.com> Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 16:58:06 +0000 From: Lois X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: 1858 Peterson's Magazine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Lois Just listed an 1858 Peterson's complete with 12 colored fashion plates on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=126241755 Also an 1877 Ladies' Guide to Needlework by Frost: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=126008008 Lois -- Lois Mueller Wooden Porch Books books@woodenporch.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 16:19:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA13761 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 16:19:20 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19820; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:29:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA20545 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:29:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mcmail1.about.com ([206.132.96.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id PAA20538 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:29:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from stat229.microweb.net [208.201.233.229] (HELO lscovel) by mcmail1.about.com (AltaVista Mail V2.0/2.0 BL23 listener) id 0000_01db_377e_8088_afa3; Sat, 03 Jul 1999 17:28:40 -0400 Message-ID: <001d01bec59b$2553bc40$e5e9c9d0@lscovel> From: "Lisa Scovel" To: References: <199907032017.OAA13467@indra.com> Subject: H-COST: For all you Shoe lovers! Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:29:25 -0700 Organization: Historical Reenactment at About.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Lisa Scovel" The site I've been producing about the history of shoes this century is now complete! http://www.centuryinshoes.com Take a look and let me know what you think... Thanks, Lisa ---- Lisa Scovel About.com Guide to Historical Reenactment http://reenactment.About.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 18:04:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15634 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 18:04:22 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29443; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 17:15:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA29965 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 17:14:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hpamgaab.compuserve.com (ah-img-2.compuserve.com [149.174.217.153]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id RAA29958 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 17:14:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpamgaab.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id TAA11262 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 19:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 19:13:51 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Hunting kilts To: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907031914_MC2-7BC8-BCD@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id SAA15634 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson >I'd be very interested to know of any documentation of clan tartans prior to the 19th C. Scots revival courtesy of Queen Victoria. Prior to that, I was under the impression that tartans had no association with a given clan, but rather to a given locale (close, but not quite), and that the "ancient" and "hunting" tartans are pure fabrication based on what somebody thought they "might" have looked like. But if this is not so, I would gladly learn better. The earliest I found was c 17th C, ref Hunting Maclean colours used as part of rental (or some payment) in the MaClean occupied area. Nothing I've seen suggest clan tartans for early use either, in fact contempory refs tend to describe the mix of colours ie socks one tartan, kilt another, etc etc Braveheart whilst great kilts & great for artistic licence, should have been wearing the saffron shirt, for the correct time line :0) Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 19:29:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA17011 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 19:29:03 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07383; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 18:39:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA07600 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 18:39:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mongoose.slip.net (mongoose.slip.net [207.171.193.14]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id SAA07593 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 18:39:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [207.171.230.174] (helo=default) by mongoose.slip.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #4) id 110aJJ-0005s6-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 17:39:09 -0700 X-Sender: cjcannon@pop.slip.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 17:39:38 -0700 To: h-costume@indra.com From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilts In-Reply-To: <199907031914_MC2-7BC8-BCD@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-Id: Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id TAA17011 Status: O -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 07:13 PM 7/3/99, Melanie Wilson wrote: >Braveheart whilst great kilts & great for artistic licence, should have >been wearing the saffron shirt, for the correct time line :0) Mel AND ought NOT to have been wearing the blue gunk [which was supposedly woad] on his face, imnsho. Carol [Gráinne ingen Domnaill Ildánaig, in the SCA, Inc.] _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 20:21:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA17984 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 20:21:44 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA11953; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 19:32:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA12439 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 19:32:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.mc.net (mail.mc.net [209.172.128.4]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id TAA12433 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 19:32:09 -0600 (MDT) From: lynnx@mc.net Received: (qmail 17078 invoked from network); 4 Jul 1999 01:32:08 -0000 Received: from tntmodem1-212.mc.net (HELO HEATHERL) (209.172.133.212) by mail.mc.net with SMTP; 4 Jul 1999 01:32:08 -0000 Message-ID: <377EDB52.181@mc.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 20:56:02 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Womens' period "plaid" info? References: <199907031129.FAA20982@indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: mail.mc.net 1.6.1 0/1000/N Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: lynnx@mc.net (FWIW to whomever: The word "plaid" had nothing to do with pattern originally; it meant a large piece of cloth used as a shawl, blanket, clothes, etc.) Alianora, Do you have any *reliable, understandable* info about the women's arasaid (?sp) / skirt combo, especially the size and shape of fabric they used? I'd *swear* the way the pictures look, the women could have wrapped a sufficiently wide piece around the waist for the skirt (selvedge vertical) and then just draped the top like the guys did, with some style variations of their own. (Also I heard the women wrapped their skirt/"kilts" opposite the way the men did.) Any insights on this? Thanks, Sister Ed _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 21:14:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA18791 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 21:14:47 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18133; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 20:24:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA17572 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 20:24:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.mc.net (mail.mc.net [209.172.128.4]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id UAA17566 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 20:24:13 -0600 (MDT) From: lynnx@mc.net Received: (qmail 3882 invoked from network); 4 Jul 1999 02:24:12 -0000 Received: from tntmodem1-212.mc.net (HELO HEATHERL) (209.172.133.212) by mail.mc.net with SMTP; 4 Jul 1999 02:24:12 -0000 Message-ID: <377EE787.31B1@mc.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 21:48:07 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Croft Mill info? References: <199907032017.OAA13467@indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: mail.mc.net 1.6.1 0/1000/N Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: lynnx@mc.net Wow!! Do you have Croft Mill's snailmail address? Thanks, Heather _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 21:15:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA18798 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 21:15:11 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18241; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 20:26:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA17679 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 20:25:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hammurabi.nh.ultra.net (hammurabi.nh.ultra.net [207.41.144.251]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA17668 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 20:25:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209.6.138.89 (d89.dial-4.mnh.nh.ultra.net [209.6.138.89]) by hammurabi.nh.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult.n14767) with SMTP id WAA27431 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 22:25:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <377EC5F8.5B8A@nh.ultranet.com> Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 22:24:56 -0400 From: Stephen & Astrida Schaeffer X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-NSCP (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants References: <199907031530_MC2-7BBF-F401@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Stephen & Astrida Schaeffer Okay, so I'm trying to make the best cotehardie I can. I've looked at the "pin it till it shapes you" school of thought which seems to be the prevalent construction theory. A friend is in the process of draping one for me, as it is clear one cannot do this to oneself. And I've come up with a very basic question: Why is everyone so sure there is no body-shaping foundation garment beneath the cotehardie? If you look at the relatively loose garments that come before, and the correspondingly low-level seamstress skills required to create those dresses, and compare them to the rather highly skilled techniques required for the "pin it till it shapes you" dress, how could so many women suddenly make that jump in skill? And what about the Bohemian Bath Attendants in illuminations, who are shown in spaghetti-strap shifts and nothing else, but who are already sporting the correct body shape? Is this just artistic license? (i.e., this is how bodies are supposed to look, so that's how I'll draw them?) Furthermore, if the snug and body-shaping fit of the dress is so dependent on the fabric, that would mean each dress made would have to be individually draped to allow for differences in the textile itself; no creation of patterns, or of getting the pattern for a new dress off of an old one. This does not strike me as terribly practical. Whereas if there were a shaping foundation garment of some kind, at least some of the pressure would be off the cotehardie itself and it would be an easier dress for seamstresses to create. Opinions? Thoughts? (To Robin Netherton, especially, if you don't mind--how did you reach your conculsions? I've gotten myself quite befuddled.) I just wanna do it right... Astrida _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 22:38:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA20106 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 22:38:41 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA25180; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 21:49:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA25468 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 21:48:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp3.gateway.net (relay8.gateway.net [208.230.117.247]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id VAA25453 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 21:48:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer (1Cust230.tnt3.princess-anne.va.da.uu.net [153.37.230.230]) by smtp3.gateway.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA27701 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 23:48:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001b01bec5d0$734f5140$e6e62599@oemcomputer> From: "Joel Thompson" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Womens' period "plaid" info? Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 23:51:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id WAA20106 Status: O -Poster: "Joel Thompson" -Hello again! I am sorry to admit that no, I don't have a reliable source for women's Scottish and/or Irish medieval clothing. There just doesn't seem to be as much documented about that as there is for the men. This is something that I always look for in my costume books, but it seldom gets a mention. If anyone knows of any good books or good websites, please let me know. Since you mentioned pictures, could you let me know where you found them? Thank you! Alianora VMAA Do you have any *reliable, understandable* info about the women's arasaid (?sp) / skirt combo, especially the size and shape of fabric they used? I'd *swear* the way the pictures look, the women could have wrapped a sufficiently wide piece around the waist for the skirt (selvedge vertical) and then just draped the top like the guys did, with some style variations of their own. (Also I heard the women wrapped their skirt/"kilts" opposite the way the men did.) Any insights on this? Thanks, Sister Ed _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 3 22:55:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA20455 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 22:55:45 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA26559; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 22:06:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA27267 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 22:06:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtpa.gateway.net (relayf.gateway.net [208.230.117.254]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA27249 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 22:05:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer (1Cust230.tnt3.princess-anne.va.da.uu.net [153.37.230.230]) by smtpa.gateway.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA07556 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 00:05:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002401bec5d2$e3235460$e6e62599@oemcomputer> From: "Joel Thompson" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Womens' period "plaid" info? Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 00:08:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id WAA20455 Status: O -Poster: "Joel Thompson" Ok, everybody, I just went to the Ravensgard Homepage, where there is a lot of stuff on well, a lot of stuff! I found medieval Scotland and Ireland, but some of the pages were "under construction" so they weren't much help. But, there is a ton of really good info here, both male and female. The addy for this is http://users.aol.com/gerekr/costume.html Alianora VMAA _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 03:23:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA23942 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 03:23:10 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA15028; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 02:34:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id CAA20504 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 02:33:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hpamgaad.compuserve.com (ah-img-4.compuserve.com [149.174.217.158]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id CAA20495 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 02:33:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpamgaad.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id EAA02502 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 04:32:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 04:32:31 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Kilts To: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907040432_MC2-7BBF-9348@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id DAA23942 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson >. I guess I didn;t make myself very clear. I was looking for verification on a non-pleated kilt, worn for hunting, evidently much like a wrap skirt -- for lack of clearer wording Yes you were clear I think everyone got sidetracked :) I've not come across the type you suggest either in my books or by heresay. That dosen't mean it dosen't exist however :) The Highland museum sent me a lot of info re early Highland dress, up to the '45, but there is no mention of it there either. No +ive help I fear sorry :( Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 03:23:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA23944 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 03:23:10 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA15041; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 02:34:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id CAA20523 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 02:33:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hpamgaab.compuserve.com (ah-img-2.compuserve.com [149.174.217.153]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id CAA20511 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 02:33:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpamgaab.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id EAA17136 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 04:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 04:32:36 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Hunting kilt To: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907040432_MC2-7BBF-934C@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id DAA23944 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Is this folded in half lengthwise? If not, how do you get it up on the = shoulder? If so, how do you get it ALL up on the shoulder? You fold it widthways, then pull the upper layer up to your shoulder >However, I do know that during the Jacobite uprisings, the Scots lost = the rights to play their pipes. I had believed that the tartans were = also outlawed here. Do you mean then after the '45 , or here as in the US or are you in Scotland ? >Their colors are so muted, that I've always believed them to be the = precursors to todays versions. In other words, what was once created = using plant dyes, which are known to fade rapidly, are now being made = with chemical dyes, which are brighter and more colorfast. You would need to look at the creation dates for each, but I think most were created rather that evolved. > Also, poor, = rural post-Medieval Scotland would not have likely had access to the = exotic dyestuffs available to the wealthier people. =20 Highlanders maybe, but not lowlanders who were pretty similiar to English or French depending on the time ! >I think of the "ancient" or "hunting" versions as being more suitable to = 1) everyday type wear, and 2) something more likely to be worn while = hunting(duh!). I think of the bright colors as suitable for clan = Some hunting are pretty bright ! Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 03:23:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA23954 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 03:23:36 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA15101; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 02:34:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id CAA20585 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 02:34:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hpdmgaaa.compuserve.com (dh-img-1.compuserve.com [149.174.206.131]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id CAA20567 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 02:33:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpdmgaaa.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id EAA27334 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 04:33:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 04:32:35 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Hunting Tartan To: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907040432_MC2-7BBF-934B@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id DAA23954 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson > Some of the finds in archaeological digs have been of muted green checked or plaid cloth. One I am recalling, though I do not recall from what book, nor which find at the moment [I catalog books for a living--it's hard to recall so many...sorry, everyone...my sincere apologies--short term memory is full up... .], was a soft, mossy green with a dark brown or black sett that looked like a plaid to me. I think the thing is YES tartans/plaid fabric was made way back, but NOT to the patterns known as McX today, ie Mr McX might have wore McZ, McY or whatever as the fancy took him. Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 10:16:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA30377 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:16:56 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05091; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:28:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA05165 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:28:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from storm.twcol.com (storm.twcol.com [204.210.251.99]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA05155 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:28:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dsc.columbus.rr.com (NEW93106154.columbus.rr.com [24.93.106.154]) by storm.twcol.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA04769 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:33:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001a01bec632$84649000$9a6a5d18@dsc.columbus.rr.com> From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:33:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Greetings! >Why is everyone so sure there is no body-shaping foundation garment >beneath the cotehardie? > >If you look at the relatively loose garments that come before, and the >correspondingly low-level seamstress skills required to create those >dresses, and compare them to the rather highly skilled techniques >required for the "pin it till it shapes you" dress, how could so many >women suddenly make that jump in skill? Well, first of all, most professional tailors were men (not that that makes much difference in the skill level, but it's a common misconception). I also get the idea that it was only the upper classes (and perhaps those middle-class folks who could afford the style and wanted to imitate their "betters :-) who really want in for the very tight styles. However, if you look at surviving gaments, one thing you conclude is that the "jump" isn't as dramatic as it looks. Tailors had been playing around with piecing garments to create a shape for at least 100 years before the cotehardie era. I do "pin 'til it shapes you," and actually, once you learn the skill, it's a fairly easy technique. I can fit a "cotehardie" in about 15 minutes. I should mention I have exactly zilch professional dressmaker training--I'm entirely self-taught. Trust me--it does get easier :-) >Whereas if there were a shaping foundation garment of some kind, at >least some of the pressure would be off the cotehardie itself and it >would be an easier dress for seamstresses to create. The problem here is that visual evidence is just one type that we look at to support our theories. One real problem with a "fitted foundation garment" (something other than a close-fitting kirtle, cut on similar lines as the outer garment) is that there's no evidence of it in literary or household accounts. Susan _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 10:16:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA30378 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:16:56 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05110; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:29:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA05191 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:28:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA05182 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:28:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 207.172.61.144 (207-172-61-144.s144.tnt1.rcm.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.61.144]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA12022 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:28:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <377F372C.93@erols.com> Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 11:27:56 +0100 From: DC X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Chinese clothing References: <199907031129.FAA20982@indra.com> <377E356A.BFC2A4B4@vci.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: DC Does anyone know of good sources for Chinese clothing around 1300-1500? Internet searches with engines have not shown very much. Thanks _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 10:41:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA30828 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:41:45 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06955; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:54:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA07392 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:53:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from deimos.worldonline.nl (deimos.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.136]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA07374 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:53:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from worldonline.nl (leda.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.135]) by deimos.worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA16784 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:53:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pc2 (vp189-144.worldonline.nl [195.241.189.144]) by worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02408 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:53:23 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199907041553.RAA02408@worldonline.nl> From: "Henk 't Jong" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: recommended reading-- medieval Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:36:18 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi, > I'm fairly new to historical costuming, and I was wondering if anybody could > recommend good books for researching Medieval period clothing? Which part of the circa 500-1500 period? I am primarily > interested in the clothing of western and northern Europe and the British Isles. What class of people? Nobility and the rich: no problem. Common burghers: pretty difficult. The peasant and the pauper: very difficult generally. Also: dress within this area could differ greatly at a given time; you have to be more specific: Danish, Dutch, Flemish, Northern French, etc. > Also, are there any books or articles that address authentic construction techniques > from that period? Thanks so much! > Not many, especially not from the part before ca 1350. Henk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 10:41:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA30832 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:41:53 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06945; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:54:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA07387 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:53:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from deimos.worldonline.nl (deimos.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.136]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA07376 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:53:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from worldonline.nl (leda.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.135]) by deimos.worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA16791 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:53:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pc2 (vp189-144.worldonline.nl [195.241.189.144]) by worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02413 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:53:25 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199907041553.RAA02413@worldonline.nl> From: "Henk 't Jong" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:54:39 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi, Astrida wrote: > Why is everyone so sure there is no body-shaping foundation garment > beneath the cotehardie? > Nobody can be sure, because none have been found and none are depicted. But with tied laces and buttons and good sewing or patternmaking you can easily get a close fitting cotehardie. > If you look at the relatively loose garments that come before, and the > correspondingly low-level seamstress skills required to create those > dresses, and compare them to the rather highly skilled techniques > required for the "pin it till it shapes you" dress, how could so many > women suddenly make that jump in skill? > Between ca 1320 and 1390 there is a fairly slow change in fashion. The button and the discovery of cutting cloth differently made the difference. Don't make the mistake that techniques could reach far-out places fast in this period; communication for example between courts, was very frequent indeed. Courtiers were the first to wear the closefitting fashions and it seeped via rich merchant through to the common man and women, who were very skilled sewers indeed. > And what about the Bohemian Bath Attendants in illuminations, who are > shown in spaghetti-strap shifts and nothing else, but who are already > sporting the correct body shape? Is this just artistic license? (i.e., > this is how bodies are supposed to look, so that's how I'll draw them?) > This is probably because their shifts were wet and clung to their bodies. > Furthermore, if the snug and body-shaping fit of the dress is so > dependent on the fabric, that would mean each dress made would have to > be individually draped to allow for differences in the textile itself; > no creation of patterns, or of getting the pattern for a new dress off > of an old one. This does not strike me as terribly practical. Don't make the mistake that medieval seamsters/stresses were amateurs; they were highly skilled craftspeople and knew exactly what they could do with what kind of cloth and had the human shape in their fingertips. > > Whereas if there were a shaping foundation garment of some kind, at > least some of the pressure would be off the cotehardie itself and it > would be an easier dress for seamstresses to create. I for one don't believe in corsets or the like before the 16th c. But hey, that's my opinion...;-) Henk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 11:50:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA31856 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:50:23 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12609; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:02:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA13483 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:02:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zeus.directcon.net (root@zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA13469 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:02:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r4p2.directcon.net [206.170.184.51]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA03640 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:00:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:00:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907041700.KAA03640@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilt? Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson >There is a very famous painting which you have probably seen of the Battle >of Culloden (Fine brave Scots charging from the left, the Forces of >Darkness... I mean, the British soldiers... from the right ). The Scots >portrayed in this painting were painted from prisoners after Culloden, Umm...I believe I've read that possesion of even small scrap of tartan was a flogging offense, or worse, for the Scots prisoners. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 12:29:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA32452 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 12:29:36 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15898; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:41:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA17319 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:41:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.snet.net (smtp.snet.net [204.60.6.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA17310 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:41:20 -0600 (MDT) From: snowfire@mail.snet.net Received: from [204.60.9.73] (hrfr-sh3-port73.snet.net [204.60.9.73]) by smtp.snet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/SNET-bmx-1.3/D-1.7/O-1.6) with SMTP id NAA24802 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 13:41:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907041741.NAA24802@smtp.snet.net> Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 13:36:57 -0400 Subject: H-COST: Re: Hops and Fabric Dyeing To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <001f01bec63e$31356f10$18065cc3@herimats> X-Mailer: SPRYNET Mail 32-Bit Mail Version: 05.00.06.72 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: snowfire@mail.snet.net -Poster: Elysant I am trying to find information on the use of hops as a dye for fabrics. I have a book "The Year 1000: What Life Was Like at the Turn of the First Millenium: An Englishman's World". In it the author claims that "Hops were grown in the year 1000, but they were used only in cloth-dying processes." Does anyone have any more on this? Elysant de Holtham _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 16:37:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA03712 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 16:37:49 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07662; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 15:49:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA10828 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 15:48:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id PAA10821 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 15:48:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.101 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 14:48:11 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: wool satin Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 10:04:25 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bec667$bb9e56c0$650bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" When I was in G -Street Fabrics in Rockville, MD over Memorial Day Weekend, they had several bolts of wool satin. I recall black and navy, but cannot confirm the full color range. Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Deborah Pulliam Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 9:08 AM To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: wool satin -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> I would check with Kathleen Smithat Textile Reproductions. She no longer advertises, but is still in business and selling wonderful fabrics. I saw some lovely 100 percent wool jeans when I was last there. ph 413 296 4437 (fax 413 296 0036.) <> The British "red coats" were always dyed with madder, so it should be a hot red, not a cochineal/purplish red. ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 17:13:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04326 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:13:35 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10352; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 16:25:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA14100 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 16:24:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.rma.edu (root@smtp.rma.edu [207.0.141.48]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA14084 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 16:24:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from malruck (USR1-17.rmaonline.net [207.48.171.17]) by smtp.rma.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21398 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:24:29 -0400 Message-ID: <028001bec66b$4de4e780$710c97ce@malruck> From: "Joseph & Christine" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilt? Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:19:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Joseph & Christine" >Umm...I believe I've read that possesion of even small scrap of tartan was a >flogging offense, or worse, for the Scots prisoners. Margo I was referring to prisoners taken at Culloden. The ban was not yet in effect. Joseph _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 17:32:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04673 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:32:52 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11820; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 16:45:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA15924 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 16:44:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hpamgaaa.compuserve.com (ah-img-1.compuserve.com [149.174.217.154]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA15910 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 16:44:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpamgaaa.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id SAA03638 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:43:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:43:20 -0400 From: Margaret Bolger Subject: H-COST: Chinese clothing To: "INTERNET:h-costume@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907041843_MC2-7BCA-DD8A@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id RAA04673 Status: O -Poster: Margaret Bolger Message text written by INTERNET:h-costume@indra.com >Poster: DC Does anyone know of good sources for Chinese clothing around 1300-1500? Internet searches with engines have not shown very much.< You could try the following web site......http://www.cixi.demon.co.uk It is owned by Jocelyn Catterton, who deals in antique Chinese costume and textiles. She is very approachable and helpful and should be able to answer any queries you have. Margaret antique costume & textiles http://www.artizania.co.uk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 17:54:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA05009 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:54:41 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA13288; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:06:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA18173 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:05:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.pacifier.com (root@smtp.pacifier.com [199.2.117.96]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id RAA18166 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:05:52 -0600 (MDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com Received: from grendal2 (ip205.van18.pacifier.com [216.65.137.205]) by smtp.pacifier.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA14273 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 16:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907042305.QAA14273@smtp.pacifier.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 16:10:16 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: H-COST: stays Priority: normal In-reply-to: <19981009.215845.5231.6.kayherb@juno.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > Ill effects of tight lacing? Try eating something hot in a rush after > lacing. Fortunately my brother knew to loosen the laces slooooowly after > I hit the ground in a dead faint. According to the cardiologists I've spoken with, never do it fast unless the person is actually in cardiac arrest (no pulse at all) or you could put them into cardiac arrest from the sudden shift in blood flow to the heart. (Hopefully no one will ever have to see the effects of that.) Of course, if they are already in cardiac arrest, there's nothing lost in getting to them quickly, only in delay. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 18:57:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA05949 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:57:06 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16317; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:07:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA23870 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:07:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id SAA23865 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:07:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from kayherb@juno.com) by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EEQLVKUY; Sun, 04 Jul 1999 20:06:40 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: stays Message-ID: <19981010.135641.4807.0.kayherb@juno.com> References: <199907042305.QAA14273@smtp.pacifier.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-9,13-18 From: "Kathryn L. Herb" Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 20:06:40 EDT Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" >According to the cardiologists I've spoken with, never do it fast >unless the person is actually in cardiac arrest (no pulse at all) or >you could put them into cardiac arrest from the sudden shift in blood >flow to the heart. (Hopefully no one will ever have to see the >effects of that.) Kat, thanks for having the details at hand. I couldn't remember the exact effects. We should all make the people we appear in costume with aware of it. I'm thankful for my brother's good memory. (A new Medic Alert bracelet?? "Stay wearer -- undo slowly" ) Kay kayherb@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 19:06:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA06116 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:06:56 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16979; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:18:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA24639 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:18:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id SAA24633 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:18:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem95.barney.pol.co.uk ([195.92.7.95] helo=herimats) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 110wSU-0001R2-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:18:07 +0100 Message-ID: <00d501bec67b$db0a8790$57065cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: <028001bec66b$4de4e780$710c97ce@malruck> Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilt? Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:17:21 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Wasnt it Sir Walter Scott who was given the job of redesigning the Highland dress by Queen Vikki . Both would turn in their grave at the current kilt phenomenon. Even John Paul Gautier has been left behind. No we can buy Kilts in any pattern whatsover even some reminiscent of the 1960 s; As long as it has a side opening and a pin its a kilt not ad ress I have recently seen some down to ankle length; Evidently they are the in thing for clubbing the night away;; extremely practical. no tartans in site. The Cornish "tartan" for kilts is shaded crisscrossing black and white., and for some reason beyond me , only ever worn with a rugby football shirt; there having been no equivalent of Sir Walter in Cornwall/ Dave LD MUNDY Editor Heritage Matters _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 19:38:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA06627 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:38:01 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18225; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:50:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA27038 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:49:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.netwiz.net (Mail.NetWiz.Net [208.136.106.6]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id SAA27029 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:49:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from slave (BayArea56k458.NetWiz.Net [208.164.208.58]) by mail.netwiz.net (8.9.2/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA19006 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378000DF.218B@netwiz.net> Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 17:48:31 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Chinese clothing References: <199907031129.FAA20982@indra.com> <377E356A.BFC2A4B4@vci.net> <377F372C.93@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Susan Fatemi DC wrote: > > -Poster: DC > > Does anyone know of good sources for Chinese clothing around > 1300-1500? Internet searches with engines have not shown very > much. > Do you want to find actual garments from that period? Or just web pictures or books? If the latter, you could try the library: there are a number of books on Chinese clothing, bearing in mind that the period you mention includes the Mongol dynasty. Also the Osprey series has several well-illustrated little books on Chinese armies thru' the ages. Don't know how authentic they are. Susan Fatemi -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 19:49:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA06788 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:49:42 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA19220; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:02:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA28134 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:01:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mongoose.slip.net (mongoose.slip.net [207.171.193.14]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA28126 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:01:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [207.171.230.157] (helo=default) by mongoose.slip.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #4) id 110x8K-0004Q7-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:01:21 -0700 X-Sender: cjcannon@pop.slip.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 18:01:53 -0700 To: h-costume@indra.com From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting Tartan In-Reply-To: <199907040432_MC2-7BBF-934B@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 04:32 AM 7/4/99 -0400, you wrote: >I think the thing is YES tartans/plaid fabric was made way back, but NOT to >the patterns known as McX today, ie Mr McX might have wore McZ, McY or >whatever as the fancy took him. -- Mel Agreed...no arguement on that point. Carol _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 19:53:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA06927 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:53:35 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA19397; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:04:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA28511 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:04:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA28500 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:04:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem69.hulk.pol.co.uk ([195.92.6.69] helo=herimats) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 110xB3-0001xr-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:04:10 +0100 Message-ID: <014d01bec682$498fc6c0$57065cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: Subject: Re: H-COST: fabric sources superfine cochineal Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:00:51 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" > > -Poster: Ninni Pettersson > > At 21.28 +0100 99-07-01, kat wrote: > > >I was also told there is a company in England making a wool superfine, > >cochineal dyed, that is back ordered for nearly a year. I saw/handled some > >of the wool, and it looks too 'hot' for cochineal -- almost edging on the > >neon. I don't know if this is the real deal and the other cochineal fabrics > >I have seen are a poorer red, or if this is a commercial dye that > >supposedly looks like cochineal. the fabric is for a British officer's > >coat. > I bought a job lot of this material for project five or six years ago. I still have a dozen or so yards underneath a work bench for replacement purposes; Yes they make both officer and other ranks dyed stanards. The dye used is exact and accurate. But the material behaves strangely. When it is first seen it seem almost flourescent in certain lights and too bright a colour in normal light ; However this is caused by the nature of the superfine weaving method; there are very small loose filament all over the material that causes this . When fully made up they have all shedded and the colour is true ; The roll I still have is the true colour on the outside but brightly coloured inside the roll where this "dewnap" ( i think ) is still present; Of course treatment with a hot iron removes any odd) bits This is mosty excellent material to work with . it cuts to panel shapes really weel and og course need no hemming so cna match the original. I used it to make authentic jackets replacing ex film company ones that not only had hems but were alseds lined with pillow ticking and had padded shoulders and the works having been made from ex army khaki great coats redyed>; In the new exact coats the fit is amazing being based on items in Blackburn museum. Without the ticking and other tailoring it is quite easy to freeze to death in them . very accurate. However if you ever work in it, (if you can get your hands on any) be very careful with the nap. You cant see it in the piece but it shouts at you if its wrong when made up; After one failure I covered it all with blue chalked arrows and little paper stickers showing the direction of the nap on each piece; Believe or not the two sides also behave differently. Get this right and its dream to work with. Its also very forgiving in the wear being oily enough to resist more water than the former greatcoat types with all of their extra thickness and of course even when fully drenched dries off quicker ; It is best to cut the pattern on the tight side with very little give; done this way and lived in they tend to adopt the contours of the wearer more accurately and always tend to look smart because of it.; Be warned however , they should never be seen in the same room as a modern steam iron else they are ruined . Most of the seaming is lapped but where there is normal seeming this should be weel saoped and psryed with water while being worn. If it will not flatten; Dave > > _________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 20:29:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA07424 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:29:09 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA22022; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:41:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA01303 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:40:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu10.smtp.email.msn.com [207.46.181.60]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA01298 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:40:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.172 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:40:01 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: Cotehardies Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 21:47:44 -0400 Message-ID: <000301bec688$69da03e0$650bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00c901bec27a$9bbe6f20$e0dc7ad1@pavilion> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" These sources may help: http://www.virtualelpaso.com/neverwinter/dress/dress.htm http://www.fpnet.co.nz/users/m/maggiem/works/mystuff/TUNICS. HTML http://pip1.pipcom.com/~tempus/cotehardie/cotehardie.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Andrea Gideon Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 5:59 PM To: H-Costume Subject: H-COST: Cotehardies -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" Anyone know where I can find a copy of a graph used to make the "cut away anything that doesn't look like a cotehardie" cotehardie? I made my pattern this way a few years ago and threw away my instructions. I now need to make one for a friend. Andrea ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 20:41:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA07710 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:41:02 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA26450; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:53:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA02253 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:52:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.vci.net (smtp.vci.net [207.162.160.12]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA02248 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 19:52:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vci.net (ppp-174-204.vci.net [207.162.174.204]) by smtp.vci.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12669 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:52:36 -0500 Message-ID: <37801075.CEFC20E4@vci.net> Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 20:55:02 -0500 From: "schuck@vci.net" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr-FR,de,ru,es-AR,sv MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Re: recommended reading-- medieval References: <199907050101.TAA28149@indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "schuck@vci.net" Sorry folks, I should have been more specific. I am most interested right now in Flemish and English costume of the upper classes in about 1000-1250 AD. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 4 21:28:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA08361 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 21:28:51 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA00187; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:41:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA05913 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:40:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from POP01 (mail.ex-pressnet.com [208.193.112.7]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA05891 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 20:40:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from alt1 - 24.239.14.77 by ex-pressnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 22:36:59 -0400 From: "Allison Thurman" To: , Subject: H-COST: re: century of shoes Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 22:42:25 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2212 (4.71.2419.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Allison Thurman" imho this is a VERY well done site! allison - -Poster: "Lisa Scovel" The site I've been producing about the history of shoes this century is now complete! http://www.centuryinshoes.com Take a look and let me know what you think... Thanks, Lisa _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 5 01:49:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA12719 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:49:26 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA20997; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:00:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id BAA25487 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:00:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spamgaac.compuserve.com (as-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.217.146]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id BAA25457 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:00:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spamgaac.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.1) id CAA22790 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:59:04 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Hops To: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907050259_MC2-7BCF-6C6F@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id BAA12719 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson >In it the author claims that "Hops were grown in the year 1000, but they were used only in cloth-dying processes." THey were grown I believe, but most refs I've seen are for medicinal use. They were not popular for brewing until much later. As for dyeing I don't recall seeing anything personally... Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 5 01:50:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA12729 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:50:10 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA20995; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:00:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id BAA25490 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:00:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spamgaac.compuserve.com (as-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.217.146]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id BAA25459 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:00:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spamgaac.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.1) id CAA22796 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:59:05 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: The Matthew To: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907050259_MC2-7BCF-6C70@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id BAA12729 Status: RO -Poster: Melanie Wilson >I feel at a complete loss when reading this message. What in the world are you talking about and referring to? It was a reconstruction of a 15th C ship which made the crossing of the Atlantic, the documetery refered to clothing, breing and other items from the period the original ref was to whether the clothing was/was not correct. and then what the used which wasn't modern......Quite a lot IMHO, but it was interesting never the less. you may not have got in in the US (the Programme I mean ) Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 5 01:51:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA12856 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:51:16 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA20999; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:00:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id BAA25488 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:00:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spamgaac.compuserve.com (as-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.217.146]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id BAA25458 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 01:00:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spamgaac.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.1) id CAA22771 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:59:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 02:59:00 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Croft mills web page ! To: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907050259_MC2-7BCF-6C6B@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id BAA12856 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson page:http://www.scoot.co.uk/croftmill/ Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 5 05:52:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA15669 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 05:52:54 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA02362; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 05:05:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id FAA24403 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 05:04:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.6.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id FAA24393 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 05:04:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) id <01JD7DPX8TW00040R6@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:09:14 BST Received: from mdx-bg-staff2.nw.mdx.ac.uk (mdx-bg-staff2.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.53.4]) by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) with ESMTP id <01JD7DPCW79U004BXR@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Mon, 05 Jul 1999 12:03:52 +0100 (BST) Received: from MDX-BG-STAFF2/SpoolDir by mdx-bg-staff2.nw.mdx.ac.uk (Mercury 1.43); Mon, 05 Jul 1999 11:58:50 +0000 (GMT0BST) Received: from SpoolDir by MDX-BG-STAFF2 (Mercury 1.43); Mon, 05 Jul 1999 11:58:32 +0000 (GMT0BST) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 11:58:30 +0000 (GMT) From: teddy1 Subject: Re: H-COST: Fantastic fabrics at low prices To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Message-id: <1C1EF6C018B@mdx-bg-staff2.nw.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.40 (NDS) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: teddy1 Hi Mel > - -Poster: Melanie Wilson > Croft Mill Tel : 01282 869685 Fax: 01282 870038 > > Various stuff some good for costume etc others more mundane, a useful > contact. Sorry no email or wen page as far as I know. I buy from Croft Mill quite regularly. In fact the shorts (short trousers, not under-shorts for the information of US H-Costumers) I'm wearing to work today in from fabric I got there. They're good for basic fabrics on occasion (though their stock tends towards the "poly-cotton-sheeting" end of the market) and sometimes have bargains of bankruptr stock from other places (100% wool crepe in a beautiful bright red was my latest purchase....I can feel a pair of footed hose coming on....) They also do things like rolls of cottan bias-binding at very reasonable prices. I only found them because someone showed me the catalogue - which is worth getting just to read. It's a very "chatty" publication, full of asides and the thoughts of the author as he wanders around the warehouse noting down the types of fabrics they have in.... sometimes it's quite surreal. As to the other supplier you listed, I'll just have to check them out, but they sound promising Teddy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 5 06:43:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA16482 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 06:43:28 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA04341; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 05:56:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id FAA27407 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 05:55:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [195.194.177.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id FAA27402 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 05:55:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from csv6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA02355.; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:59:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-Message_Server by csv6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 05 Jul 1999 12:54:16 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 12:54:01 +0100 From: "KATE M BUNTING" To: Subject: H-COST: Re: Elizabethan sailors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id GAA16482 Status: O -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" The system added an unwanted "=20" to the URL I quoted for the Mary Rose website, which should read http://www.maryrose.org/ Hope it transmits OK this time. I too enjoyed the TV programmes on the "Matthew". My impression was that the crew had been issued with period costume to wear for show on departure/arrival and, presumably due to lack of storage space for clothes, often wore it at sea too, but that there was no requirement for them to go without modern waterproofs etc. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby PS There seem to be a lot of library cataloguers on this list! I'm a cataloguer too. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 5 06:49:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA16505 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 06:49:02 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA04526; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 05:58:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id FAA27555 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 05:57:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from duval.se.mediaone.net (duval.se.mediaone.net [24.129.0.67]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id FAA27548 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 05:57:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pompano.net.pompano.net (surf422.pompano.net [24.129.29.122]) by duval.se.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA06686 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 07:57:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Andy Oppenheim" To: Subject: RE: H-COST:shorts Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 07:55:49 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <1C1EF6C018B@mdx-bg-staff2.nw.mdx.ac.uk> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Andy Oppenheim" Teddy, shorts mean the same thing here for most under 50. undershorts are more commonly called underwear ( a generic term for panties, bra and underpants(hopefully not on the same person =o). in the slang they are called drawers. Hope this helps andy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 5 07:58:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA17639 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 07:58:01 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA07725; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 07:08:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA03206 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 07:07:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from edtnps04.telusplanet.net (edtnps04.telusplanet.net [198.161.157.104]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA03192 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 07:07:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from clgrtnt3-port-10.agt.net ([161.184.46.10]:1029 "HELO Freya") by smtp1.telusplanet.net with SMTP id <29608-3682>; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 07:07:01 -0600 X-Sender: agottfre@pop.telusplanet.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: H-COST: The Matthew ! X-Mailer: Message-Id: <19990705130706Z29608-3682+10@smtp1.telusplanet.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 07:07:01 -0600 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: RO -Poster: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) The Matthew was the ship used by John Cabot to cross the Atlantic to Newfoundland in 1497, thus officially claiming the New World for England. The ship was recreated and the voyage reenacted for the tricentennial. Melanie Wilson wrote: >> Anyway, they did the whole thing in costume Actually, there was a VERY long documentary on the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) which made it quite clear that the historic clothing was only worn for photo-ops, except for one or two die-hards among the crew. I was a little disappointed, but not surprised, to learn this. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 5 08:49:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA18437 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 08:49:55 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11166; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 08:01:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA07950 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 08:00:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA07942 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 08:00:18 -0600 (MDT) From: trekona@erols.com Received: from erols.com (207-172-128-52.s52.tnt1.col.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.128.52]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA26431 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:00:16 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilt? Date: Mon, 05 Jul 99 14:01:55 GMT Message-ID: X-Mailer: Quarterdeck Message Center [2.00] Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: trekona@erols.com > -Poster: "Joel Thompson" > [snipped] > Which brings up another interesting thread.....I have some friends who are > Grade A Vikingologists. They maintain that there is no surviving piece of > wool (Viking era folks!) with 2 different colors woven into a pattern. > Hmmm....to me, that sounds highly unlikely. We know that they were > proficient weavers, making lovely twill, herringbone and tabby, so why not > use different color threads to make it even more beautiful. Vikings, like > Celts, liked bright colors. While I haven't seen much at all of Viking culture plaids (which is odd, but who knows about taste), there *is* a scrap of Viking Age plaid in the Oslo Ship Museum. This museum exhibits artifacts of Oseberg, Gokstad and Tune - including a small selection of textile scraps. If Nancy Spies is still on the list, she spied the piece of plaid and got a photo of it (I missed it on my trip - too 'stoned' over all the bigger artifacts to notice the dark textile room!). So there *is* a surviving piece of wool from the Viking Era woven into a plaid pattern. Unfortunately all I know of is this one. Anyone else?? -Judy Mitchell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 5 12:15:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA22258 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:15:58 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02470; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 11:24:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA00558 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 11:23:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagle.sac.verio.net (root@eagle.sac.verio.net [207.159.5.20]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA00551 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 11:23:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pAprilX (pm06-30.sac.verio.net [209.162.64.237]) by eagle.sac.verio.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA26413 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907051723.KAA26413@eagle.sac.verio.net> X-Sender: AprilX@mail-1.ns.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: AprilX@ns.net (April Athena Genung) Subject: Re: H-COST: Fantastic fabrics at low prices Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AprilX@ns.net (April Athena Genung) I just discovered a place called Phoenix Textiles. Their web address is www.phoenixtextiles.com I don't know how great they are for period fabrics right now, but their selection changes and grows constantly, and their mundane fabrics a gorgeous. Some of the fabric is icky polyester or lycra but I found some gorgeous eggplant colored corduroy and a batik printed rayon, I even saw some silk shantung as well. Most things are under $5/yd and they have a huge section for $1/yd! The fabric is very high quality too. They have great swatches that are pretty color accurate too. Check it out! April _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 5 21:13:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA31113 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:13:05 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14018; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 20:15:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA21853 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 20:14:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brain.proaxis.com (root@brain.proaxis.com [206.163.142.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA21843 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 20:14:50 -0600 (MDT) From: midorih@proaxis.com Received: from oemcomputer (ld00-31.inet-x.net [198.106.195.31]) by brain.proaxis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA18884 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 19:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990705191548.007d94e0@proaxis.com> X-Sender: midorih@proaxis.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 19:15:48 -0700 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Recipe for sugar water please? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: midorih@proaxis.com Elysant wrote: >...she sometimes used sugar water to help keep the curls in. Elysant, I've heard of sugar water used for rag curls. What is the recipe for sugar water please? I'd like to try it. Many thanks in advance. Midori _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 5 21:19:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA31135 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:19:30 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14957; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 20:23:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA22707 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 20:22:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.snet.net (smtp.snet.net [204.60.6.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA22686 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 20:22:04 -0600 (MDT) From: snowfire@mail.snet.net Received: from [204.60.46.215] (hrfr-sh14-port215.snet.net [204.60.46.215]) by smtp.snet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/SNET-bmx-1.3/D-1.7/O-1.6) with SMTP id WAA15908 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 22:21:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907060221.WAA15908@smtp.snet.net> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 22:18:00 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: Recipe for sugar water please? To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990705191548.007d94e0@proaxis.com> X-Mailer: SPRYNET Mail 32-Bit Mail Version: 05.00.06.72 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: snowfire@mail.snet.net -Poster: Elysant >Elysant wrote: > >>...she sometimes used sugar water to help keep the curls in. > >Elysant, > >I've heard of sugar water used for rag curls. What is the recipe for sugar >water please? I'd like to try it. Many thanks in advance. >Midori I'll have to ask my mother when next I call home. I will post the details ok? Elysant _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 5 23:58:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00952 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 23:58:20 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA02199; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 23:01:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id XAA10739 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 23:00:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ares.flash.net (ares.flash.net [209.30.0.41]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id XAA10731 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 23:00:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from flash.net (p24.amax11.dialup.hou1.flash.net [209.30.67.24]) by ares.flash.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01230 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 00:00:38 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37818CD6.538BCDAB@flash.net> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 23:57:58 -0500 From: Charlene Charette X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: German book References: <3777E865.A26012F6@ndh.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Charlene Charette Andrea Clef wrote: > > >> Does anyone know of a book dealer from whom I might order this particular book (e.g. one which >> specializes in German books, or a German dealer)? My German is rusty, but for a good book, I'd be >> willing to give it a whirl. >> >> Susan Carroll-Clark >> This was apparently spawned from another thread that I wasn't reading as I haven't found the title being sought. However, I have found a US company that can order any German book in print for you. I've used them once and so far I've been happy with them. I'm currently awaiting an exchange copy as the book was bound incorrectly -- certainly not their fault and they've been good about ordering a replacement. It does take awhile; if you're in a hurry I'd suggest contacting the publisher direct. Intl Book Import Service, Inc. 161 Main Street, PO Box 8188 Lynchburg, TN 37352-8188 USA 800-277-4247 or 931-759-7400 Fax: 931-759-7555 Email: ibis@IBIService.com URL: www.IBIService.com --Charlene -- One may be my very good friend, and yet not of my opinion. -- Margaret Cavendish _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 6 01:21:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA02554 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 01:21:28 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA08973; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 00:24:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id AAA18579 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 00:23:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zeus.directcon.net (root@zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id AAA18574 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 00:23:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r4p40.directcon.net [206.170.184.89]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA20303 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 23:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 23:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907060622.XAA20303@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: H-COST: Costume Connection pattern Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson Has anyone used The Costume Connection's Elizabethan Man's pattern, the upperclass one? If so, what was your opinion as to historical accuracy, ease of sewing, and fit? thanks, Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 6 07:24:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA07098 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 07:24:09 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA25997; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 06:28:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id GAA28913 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 06:27:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id GAA28903 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 06:27:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [38.30.214.237] (ip237.washington13.dc.pub-ip.psi.net [38.30.214.237]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA05501 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 05:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907061226.FAA05501@harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: H-COST: Old World Enterprises Pattern Date: Tue, 6 Jul 99 08:31:17 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: margo king To: "Historic Costume" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: margo king Another comment please on another pattern from another Margo! I purchased the folowing pattern and need whatever help I can get re: problems with the pattern, etc. I also could use some help on appropriate fabric and colors to the 1850's. My intent is to wear it at either the opening night celebration for The Washington Antiques Show in Jan 2000 or at the Turn of the Century Ball (also sponsored by the show, which will be 'fancy dress') on Saturday, Jan 8th This is a modern pattern by Old World Enterprises, copyright 1989, for making a reproduction 1850s crinoline ballgown. Old World Enterprises, Unique Patterns of Historical Fashion, Pattern #851. Includes sizes 8 through 14 in same pattern envelope. An off-the-shoulder gown with a lace or fabric flounce running around its perimeter. The fitted bodice is fully boned and sweeps to a point at the center front waist, which is embellished with flowers on ribbon pillows. The gown has a center back opening that can either be laced or employ a hook and eye closure. The neckline is trimmed with flowers that are set onto ribbon cushions. Lace or fabric flounces fall from the sleeve cap. The large skirt is bell shaped, gathered at the waistline, and features two wide flounces that can be made exclusively of fabric or overlayered with lace. A lace mitt pattern is included, as is a hoop skirt pattern. Also -- is there any corset I can get that I can wear for costumes from 1850's -1899 or are they so different that I need to invest in several. Where is the best place to buy accurate corsets since I do not have the time or the skills to make them?! Many thanks!! Margo King _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 6 07:46:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA07420 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 07:46:14 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA27333; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 06:50:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id GAA01614 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 06:49:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id GAA01609 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 06:49:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion (216-164-231-183.s437.tnt7.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com [216.164.231.183]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA10183 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 08:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001401bec7af$0c47f840$b7e7a4d8@pavilion> From: "Andrea Gideon" To: References: <199907041553.RAA02413@worldonline.nl> Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 08:57:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > > Astrida wrote: > > Why is everyone so sure there is no body-shaping foundation garment > > beneath the cotehardie? > > > Nobody can be sure, because none have been found and none are depicted. But > with tied laces and buttons and good sewing or patternmaking you can easily > get a close fitting cotehardie. > Also, if you wear a very tight one as an underdress under a looser one. you will acheive some shaping and some support. Andrea _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 6 12:13:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12058 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:13:21 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08333; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:21:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA26562 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:20:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from eliz@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA26543; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:20:14 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:20:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199907061720.LAA26543@indra.com> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "h-costume" Subject: H-COST: Please Test a Webpage Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" I have developed a new section of my Vintage Publications website about 1864 children's clothing http://www.costumegallery.com/Frank_Leslie/April_1864/Children.htm. This is supposed to be at a level that grade school children can take a quiz about 1864 children's clothing (adults can take it too). Can some of you please take the quiz and let me know if it was simple enough. If you have a child, please let them take the quiz and see how well they navigate the webpage. Should I offer an explanation somewhere that children wore dresses until a certain age? Should I explain this ahead of time or when they finish the quiz? Please email me privately with responses. New additions for everyone: Frank Leslie's April 1864: Ladies Caps: http://www.costumegallery.com/Frank_Leslie/April_1864/Ladies_Caps.htm Ladies Bonnets: http://www.costumegallery.com/Frank_Leslie/April_1864/Ladies_Bonnets.htm Many Thanks!!! Later... Penny Ladnier The Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 6 12:13:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12062 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:13:58 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08822; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:23:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA26952 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:22:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from eliz@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA26910; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:22:04 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:22:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199907061722.LAA26910@indra.com> From: Robin Netherton To: Historic Costume List Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Robin Netherton I've been trying to post this for days, but it hasn't shown up, so I'm trying again. My sincere apologies if this come through multiple times. [It was delayed because it exceeded the maximum un-approved posting length, and I was away from my mail for the holiday weekend. ...eliz] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- I have been traveling and came back to (1) a pile of work and (2) a pile of H-COST messages I would like to reply to but haven't yet had the chance. But since this one popped up just now, and Astrida asked for my thoughts, here goes. On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Stephen & Astrida Schaeffer wrote: > Why is everyone so sure there is no body-shaping foundation garment > beneath the cotehardie? The short answer, from my perspective, is that you don't need it to accomplish the task, and there's no evidence it existed, so there's no reason to assume it. The simplest solutions that require the fewest assumptions are generally the best. The rest of this message is the long answer. (By cotehardie, I'm guessing you mean the fitted dress worn by Western European noblewomen in the late 14th and early 15th century. I don't use the term quite so generally myself, but that seems to be what people mean nowadays.) > If you look at the relatively loose garments that come before, and the > correspondingly low-level seamstress skills required to create those > dresses, and compare them to the rather highly skilled techniques > required for the "pin it till it shapes you" dress, how could so many > women suddenly make that jump in skill? Actually, the jump wasn't that sudden. The relatively loose garments begin changing around 1320, first with attempts at fitting by bringing in the width of the torso. That method has a limit -- you can't fit beyond the point at which you can't get the garment on over your head and shoulders. Enter two major innovations, both simple and logical in form but wide-ranging in what they allowed people to do: The center front opening (meaning an opening from the neckline down past the waist that is closed after the garment is on you), and the set-in sleeve (which integrates some concepts of the square underarm gore, but with additional shaping and flexibility). The center opening let you tighten further around the torso, and the set-in sleeve let you eliminate the bulk around shoulders and underarms without sacrificing range of motion. After these two changes, you see a gradual series of developments in fitting. First the tightening is just done sideways, giving us the columnar figures and smashed "monobosom" of, say, the Machaut manuscripts of the 1350s (French) or the English brass of Joan de la Pole (c. 1380). Nothing here requires any great development in skill level, just the addition of a couple more techniques to the repertoire over the course of several decades. And at the same time we've got a lot of social and economic upheaval, due to the Black Death and other social and economic shifts, that eventually serve to get a lot of money (and fabric) in circulation and increase motivation for fashion change and complexity. Fashion tends toward to extremes, so fitting became tighter and tighter -- but that happened gradually, over decades. Then necklines began to inch wider and lower. If you take the columnar fitted dress of mid-century, with its relatively high jewel-neck, and cut that neckline progressively lower, you find that this releases pressure on the upper bosom, so the continuing pressure of the fabric on the lower bosom pushes the breasts higher. (Interestingly, the Wonderbra operates on the same principle.) Continue this trend, and eventually the whole figure shifts in form. By the turn of the century you reach the most extreme form of this fashion -- with the S-curved spine, high bust, tiny waist, generous belly. But that look didn't spring up overnight; you can track its development slowly and gradually. (I did this by making a series of dresses covering the range of these developments, and learning how small changes in neckline cut yielded progressively more extreme overall figure shaping.) By the end of the century, there is obviously quite a bit of additional *effort* required to achieve this look, but it's not really a question of skill; it's a question of time and money. Note that lower-class garments do not reach nearly so extreme a form -- they do become fitted, but not to the same extent. That meant they required less labor, and also it meant they'd have a longer life, as there was less cutting and pressure on the garment (which cause faster wear) and because they could be passed from one person to another with a minimum of alteration. Meanwhile, rich women did not have as much concern over the longevity of their garments, and if they did not want to take the time to create the extreme fit in their own households, they could hire dressmakers who would have the experience to produce the highly fitted garments. Others who were willing to invest the time to do it themselves could manage, still, at home -- because the actual techniques did not require any special equipment or proprietary knowledge. I have actually managed to make these dresses for myself, though it's no picnic -- still, few of these women lived alone; they lived in extended households, and each household would have had members who did the sewing for the whole household. > And what about the Bohemian Bath Attendants in illuminations, who are > shown in spaghetti-strap shifts and nothing else, but who are already > sporting the correct body shape? Is this just artistic license? (i.e., > this is how bodies are supposed to look, so that's how I'll draw them?) First, I do hate to generalize from Bohemian bath attendants to the English and French and Flemish courts. But even if you wish to, the explanation of artistic convention to justify these women's figures has plenty of precedent -- starting with the multitude of nudes who are painted as though they are wearing fitted garments that elevate their bust and bend their spine. One obvious example is Eve in the Eden scene from the Tres Riches Heures; there are many others. Alternatively, I've seen no illustrations suggesting a separate foundation garment or body shaper under a 14th-century fitted dress. And that's after examining many dozens of illustrations of women half-unlaced, or in the process of dressing, or nursing. Over and over, you see the fitted gown unlaced to show a plain unfitted chemise underneath, and nothing else. Nor is there any evidence I know of in written records that names or suggests such a garment. I can't of course say that nothing of the sort ever existed, but I feel pretty confident in saying it certainly was not in routine wear. > Furthermore, if the snug and body-shaping fit of the dress is so > dependent on the fabric, that would mean each dress made would have to > be individually draped to allow for differences in the textile itself; > no creation of patterns, or of getting the pattern for a new dress off > of an old one. This does not strike me as terribly practical. Actually, if you look at how clothing was made at this point, it's patterns that don't seem terribly practical. I see no evidence that patterns had been invented by this time at all. The earlier garments certainly did not need any; patterns are acutally counterintuitive if you're coming from a history of loose tunics that are geometrically cut based on dimensions that reflect the width of the fabric and the size of the person. For clothing made in the home, a pattern-less approach makes more sense because it requires no written record and no physical pattern. What's vital is the construction *method.* People would most likely have learned from watching how to measure fabric by holding it up to the body, cutting specific rough shapes (usually geometric in form), basting them into place, then fitting the rough garment on the body, sewing truer seams, and cutting away the excess. This is a simple and logical means of sewing, but it does not come naturally to people who are used to thinking in terms of patterns. A student of mine once phrased it this way -- "With patterns, you cut it out, sew it, then fit it. Before patterns, you fit it, then sew it, then cut it out." A generalization, but pretty close to the mark. It's important to remember that for patterns to work, you need to first have a stable body. The 14th-century fitted body is anything but stable; the dynamic of the silhouette derives from the mobility and manipulation of the bosom, the shoulders, the floating ribs, etc. The dress itself -- through its pressure along grain lines and stretch on bias lines -- works with the individual body to mold it into a shape whose exact angles and dimensions are unique to that body and that dress. Any attempt to make a pattern would be pretty useless, because there are too many factors involved that affect the angles, proportions, and sizes of the finished pieces. (You can, however, use an existing garment as a rough guide to a new one, as long as it comes close to fitting the individual -- you can't use it as an exact pattern, but it gives you a nice place to start, and then you complete the fitting on the person.) On the other hand, once you do have foundation garments, you have a stable body, from which you can take measurements -- and you can assume that those measurements will be the same when you return to that body, because the foundation garment dictates the proportions and structure. My research partner, who specializes in Elizabethan, often notes that an Elizabethan corset stands up by itself -- you can see the shape of the body even when no one is wearing it, and you can put it on a dress dummy and fit around it; but my fitted dresses fall in a shapeless heap when they're removed from the body -- they have no independent form of their own. I would guess that the development of foundation garments helped make possible the regular use of patterns, and also the expansion of tailoring as a profession. Certainly by the 1500s, tailors could routinely work independently of their clients, from measurements only. (Certainly certain garments could be done this way earlier, too, but not the 14th-century fitted gown we're discussing here.) And many new techniques were developed that were indeed more complex than the average housewife could learn easily -- so tailoring became a proprietary profession. But note that later garments typically do not use the fluidity and stretch of the fabric to mold a shape -- often the clothing is essentially upholstered around a set foundation, and stretch in the overlying garment would be a very bad thing indeed. So, there are significant changes in approach, technique, and economics between the fitted Gothic dress of 1400 (cut from long pieces falling from shoulder to floor, plus triangular gores) and the highly complex Elizabethan or French gowns of 1600 (cut with a multitude of small, oddly shaped pieces that are assembled to create a set silhouette). > Whereas if there were a shaping foundation garment of some kind, at > least some of the pressure would be off the cotehardie itself and it > would be an easier dress for seamstresses to create. Bingo. This is what happened in that in-between time. Look carefully at fashion changes over the 1400s and 1500s. More and more structure is built into the gowns, producing more stable silhouettes and firmer and flatter surfaces. Eventually someone (or many people) realized it made more sense to separate some of the layers of structural support from the gown itself to make inner garments that could be used under many gowns, relieving the pressure from the finer fabrics, simplifying outer-garment construction, and adding versatility. Once you have those foundation garments, there's room to develop such concepts as standard sizes, ready-to-wear, and a host of other ideas that we take for granted now -- but that didn't really exist in the 14th century. Perhaps it would help if you considered that 14th-century fitted dress to *be* the foundation garment. After all, it was typically covered by a second gown; that may have been a fitted overgown (what I would call a cotehardie, as distinct from a fitted dress worn directly over a shift), or it may have been a fuller garment like a houppelande. Either way, the dress on the inside would be doing all the hard work of molding and holding the figure. That dress would have been worn as an everyday basic garment, and subject to intensive daily wear and perspiration. The outer gown would have been more formal, and more likely to use expensive fabric, fur, and embellishment. A noblewoman might therefore be more likely to have her fitted dress made within the household, but hire a dressmaker to make the better outer gown. And if you have a decent-fitting undergown, you can indeed use it as a rough guide for the cutting of a fitted overgown; a houppelande can be fit with even less effort (once you get the neck and shoulders just right). > Opinions? Thoughts? (To Robin Netherton, especially, if you don't > mind--how did you reach your conculsions? I've gotten myself quite > befuddled.) How did I reach these conclusions? First, intuitively, starting more than 20 years ago, when I began draping fabric to create medieval costumes for fun. I realize now that it helped that I had very little modern sewing knoweldge. I went directly to the sources and worked from those. One of the things I teach my students now is to forget everything they know about modern methods, and start from the absolute bare basics. Essentially, what I did is start with the universal loose tunic of the early Middle Ages (geometric shapes, straight seams) and worked my way forward, adding new techniques only as absolutely necessary and as the evidence suggested. So, no set-in sleeves till the early 1300s. No princess seams till maybe 1440 (and rare even then). No significant use of the waistline seam till the mid-1400s (you get a few outliers before then, but the seam wasn't an integral element of the clothing construction for a long time). No darts. And certainly no boning, stay-stitching, dozens of other small things that today's seamstresses learn in their first sewing classes. Over the years, I've worked my way up through about 1480, figuring out where they added one more cut here, one more seam there, to generate each new style. At the same time, I went to college, learned how to do real research, traveled, photographed, burrowed into books, talked with other researchers in many areas, etc. And in this time, I haven't found anything to indicate that either patterns or foundation garments were used in the 14th century, so I'm maintaining the hypothesis that they were not. What convinces me, though, is that if I can take a hunk of natural-fiber woven fabric, sew it using a minimum number of techniques, no patterns, no foundation garments, no boning, etc. and produce a garment that, on the body, generates the same silhouette I see in the artwork -- and if I can do this over and over using the identical method, and if I can teach this to other people, and they can accomplish the same thing -- then logic would dictate that there is no need to assume the existence of more complicated methods or elements. If I can do this, there's no reason to think that the average medieval seamstress could not do as well or better. If someone does have evidence for pattern use or foundation garments in the 14th century, I do want to see it. It would throw a large part of my work out the window, but I'd still like to know. --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 6 12:43:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12549 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:43:49 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16643; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:53:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA04210 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:52:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cats.ucsc.edu (rumpleteazer.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.45]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA04153 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:52:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ese.UCSC.EDU (31907@ese.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.43]) by cats.ucsc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.4.cats-athena) with ESMTP id KAA12454 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ariyana@localhost) by ese.UCSC.EDU (8.8.8/8.8.8.cats-client) id KAA22259; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:52:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Ariyana Kylstram X-Sender: ariyana@ese.UCSC.EDU To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Phoenix Textiles does SPAM In-Reply-To: <199907060222.UAA22718@indra.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Ariyana Kylstram > > From: AprilX@ns.net (April Athena Genung) > Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:23:11 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: Re: H-COST: Fantastic fabrics at low prices > > - -Poster: AprilX@ns.net (April Athena Genung) > > I just discovered a place called Phoenix Textiles. Their web address is > www.phoenixtextiles.com > > I don't know how great they are for period fabrics right now, but their > selection changes and grows constantly, and their mundane fabrics a > gorgeous. Some of the fabric is icky polyester or lycra but I found some > gorgeous eggplant colored corduroy and a batik printed rayon, I even saw > some silk shantung as well. Most things are under $5/yd and they have a > huge section for $1/yd! The fabric is very high quality too. They have > great swatches that are pretty color accurate too. Check it out! > > April > > _________________________________________________________________ No offense, April, but Phoenix Textiles has been spamming me and not removing me from their mailing list after *7* requests to remove me. They have been spamming a university account, which is for instructional purposes, and I find their actions reprehensible. They could be the best fabric seller in the world, and I wouldn't buy from them because of these business practices. Be careful... if they get your email address they might start spamming you too. .ari _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 6 13:31:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13404 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:31:32 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27568; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:40:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA15079 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:39:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web122.yahoomail.com (web122.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.57]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id MAA15068 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:39:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19990706183944.28107.rocketmail@web122.yahoomail.com> Received: from [198.207.198.61] by web122.yahoomail.com; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 11:39:44 PDT Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:39:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Lyssandre MacKenzie Subject: Re: H-COST: Phoenix Textiles does SPAM To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Lyssandre MacKenzie Try and find out who their ISP is and notify them. Also try sending mail to webmaster@ and postmaster@ the Phoenix Textiles domain name. Otherwise, check your mail system's preferences- you mail be able to filter out the SPAM. Good luck, Noelle --- Ariyana Kylstram wrote: > > -Poster: Ariyana Kylstram > > > > > From: AprilX@ns.net (April Athena Genung) > > Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:23:11 -0700 (PDT) > > Subject: Re: H-COST: Fantastic fabrics at low > prices > > > > - -Poster: AprilX@ns.net (April Athena Genung) > > > > I just discovered a place called Phoenix Textiles. > Their web address is > > www.phoenixtextiles.com > > > > I don't know how great they are for period fabrics > right now, but their > > selection changes and grows constantly, and their > mundane fabrics a > > gorgeous. Some of the fabric is icky polyester or > lycra but I found some > > gorgeous eggplant colored corduroy and a batik > printed rayon, I even saw > > some silk shantung as well. Most things are under > $5/yd and they have a > > huge section for $1/yd! The fabric is very high > quality too. They have > > great swatches that are pretty color accurate too. > Check it out! > > > > April > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > No offense, April, but Phoenix Textiles has been > spamming me and not > removing me from their mailing list after *7* > requests to remove me. > They have been spamming a university account, which > is for instructional > purposes, and I find their actions reprehensible. > They could be the best > fabric seller in the world, and I wouldn't buy from > them because of these > business practices. > > Be careful... if they get your email address they > might start spamming > you too. > > .ari > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 6 18:12:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18265 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 18:12:38 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19173; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 17:22:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA15272 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 17:21:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagle.sac.verio.net (root@eagle.sac.verio.net [207.159.5.20]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id RAA15198 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 17:21:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pAprilX (pm08-09.sac.verio.net [209.162.65.75]) by eagle.sac.verio.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA06867 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 16:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 16:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907062320.QAA06867@eagle.sac.verio.net> X-Sender: AprilX@mail-1.ns.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: AprilX@ns.net (April Athena Genung) Subject: Re: H-COST: Phoenix Textiles does SPAM Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AprilX@ns.net (April Athena Genung) Oh dear, thanks for the tip! I get a couple of updates from them a month but nothing I personally consider spam. But not taking you off their list after that many requests is >>really<< bad!! Thanks for letting me know April > >-Poster: Ariyana Kylstram > >> >> From: AprilX@ns.net (April Athena Genung) >> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:23:11 -0700 (PDT) >> Subject: Re: H-COST: Fantastic fabrics at low prices >> >> - -Poster: AprilX@ns.net (April Athena Genung) >> >> I just discovered a place called Phoenix Textiles. Their web address is >> www.phoenixtextiles.com >> >> I don't know how great they are for period fabrics right now, but their >> selection changes and grows constantly, and their mundane fabrics a >> gorgeous. Some of the fabric is icky polyester or lycra but I found some >> gorgeous eggplant colored corduroy and a batik printed rayon, I even saw >> some silk shantung as well. Most things are under $5/yd and they have a >> huge section for $1/yd! The fabric is very high quality too. They have >> great swatches that are pretty color accurate too. Check it out! >> >> April >> >> _________________________________________________________________ > >No offense, April, but Phoenix Textiles has been spamming me and not >removing me from their mailing list after *7* requests to remove me. >They have been spamming a university account, which is for instructional >purposes, and I find their actions reprehensible. They could be the best >fabric seller in the world, and I wouldn't buy from them because of these >business practices. > >Be careful... if they get your email address they might start spamming >you too. > >.ari > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 6 20:03:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA20102 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:03:40 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04568; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:12:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA04698 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:11:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA04681 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:11:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from default (trt-on13-43.netcom.ca [216.123.39.43]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA04927 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:10:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00d801bec815$85d8d100$2b277bd8@default> From: "David Stamper & Eve Harris" To: Subject: H-COST: Leather Jerkin Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:10:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "David Stamper & Eve Harris" I'm posting because I am deliriously happy about some research I conducted. I'm working on an A&S challenge in Ealdormere which centers around a from-the-ground-up recreation of the extant pinked and scored leather jerkin shown in Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion, circa 1560. I've been trying to find other examples of jerkins in this time period and had about 4 painting sources, none of which made me very happy. Then a month ago I came across the website for the Wreck of the Mary Rose (this fits in well with a recent thread). Apparently they had brought up some jerkins with the ship. I emailed them for some information, and today I am happy to relate that they sent me full size scale drawings of the jerkin most similar to mine out of the 13 they recovered, along with drawings of the other ones, pictures of the different kinds of buttons and toggles, notes on the work in progress, and locator maps of the ship. I call this primary research. Now I can begin my work. For those who care: the recreated jerkin will hopefully be supported by a whole suit of clothes: a fulled wool doublet and slops, linen blouse with blackwork and smallclothes, knitted silk stockings, and a couched trim felted morion hat. All handmade from period materials using period techniques as far as possible. I am very happy. So will be my husband, since he gets to wear all this after I present the goods at Twelfth Night. Unfortunately I can't spread around the pictures without permission from the Mary Rose Trust, but they were very nice to ME, a Nobody, and sent me the stuff for free. That's good news. Eve Harris do not fold, staple, spindle or mutilate _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 6 22:59:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA23000 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 22:59:18 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA24691; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 22:07:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA01487 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 22:06:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from aus.compassnet.com.au ([203.26.180.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id WAA01454 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 22:06:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from glenda-s-pc by aus.compassnet.com.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA06686; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:03:57 +1000 Message-ID: <005001bec82e$143dd540$8fb41acb@glenda-s-pc> From: "Glenda Robinson" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Mary Rose trust and surgeon's cap Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:06:19 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Glenda Robinson" Eve wrote: >Unfortunately I can't spread around the pictures without permission >from the Mary Rose Trust, but they were very nice to ME, a Nobody, and >sent me the stuff for free. That's good news. > They were also very nice to us. My husband spied a domino "found on the boat" on a webpage, and captioned as a Tudor domino. He asked for more info, as we hadn't seen a domino before WAY later. Well, the webpage was wrong. It was a Napoleonic period domino that must have fallen from a ship and dropped onto the deck of the Mary Rose. They promised to fix it, too. Seems like these people really enjoy their work, and want to help all those others interested too. Also... On the Mary Rose, there was the Silk Velvet surgeon's cap found with the stitching disintegrated. This was part of the travelling exhibition that came to Australia a couple of years ago. There were linen and wool (and leather, too) items found nearby well preserved. I'd like to dig some more on this, as this may possibly be a use of cotton thread. Has anyone else done research on this one? Glenda. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 6 23:13:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA23308 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 23:13:05 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA25974; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 22:22:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA03860 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 22:21:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA03691 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 22:20:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [209.63.113.184] (209-63-113-184.sea.jps.net [209.63.113.184]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA12481 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907070420.VAA12481@smtp6.jps.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.0c (197) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 21:19:43 -0700 Subject: H-COST: History: We're Losing It From: "R.L. Shep" To: "h-costume" Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "R.L. Shep" Some of you may recall that there was a prolonged discussion about how we should take all the old costume books and put them on disk to preserve them In the July 12 issue of Newsweek under Technology there is an article entitled *History: We're Losing It-- They told us digital would last forever. They lied. How do we save the past before it all disappears?* Although it does not specifically talk about costume books it is certainly worth reading and learning from. I basically comes down to *yesterday's miracle drug is today's poison*. There never is an easy answer to these problems. ~!~ R.L.Shep http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 03:44:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA26686 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 03:44:34 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA16217; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 02:55:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id CAA02891 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 02:54:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hpamgaab.compuserve.com (ah-img-2.compuserve.com [149.174.217.153]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id CAA02859 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 02:54:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpamgaab.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id EAA02471 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 04:54:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 04:53:36 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Penny's kids competition To: LIST historic costume Message-ID: <199907070453_MC2-7C23-1548@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id DAA26686 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson My daughter 5 gave these answers: 1 BOY 2 GIRL 3 BOY 4 GIRL 5 GIRL Not sure what the answers were as it took over 10 mins to load the picture & I had to get to work b4 the answers came up ! I can try it on others if you like, what age are you aiming at ? Bryony is above average intelligence(not bragging simple for your info !) & used to costume events having been brought up in serveral eras at once :) Hope this helps Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 06:49:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA29667 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 06:49:40 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA24986; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 05:56:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id FAA02214 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 05:54:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.12]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id FAA02205 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 05:54:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem56.tweety.pol.co.uk ([195.92.6.184] helo=herimats) by svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 111qHc-0002GI-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:54:37 +0100 Message-ID: <003901bec86f$7d3409c0$b8065cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: <199907070420.VAA12481@smtp6.jps.net> Subject: Re: H-COST: History: We're Losing It Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:31:23 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Slightly allied with this thread? Before going digital I spent years printing photos onto special archival paper and the storing the prints in special envelopes so they might last a hundred years. Digital printed out photos start to fade withing 6 months; i have recently found a supplier of archival ink but not for my printer. Any thoughts Dave > > -Poster: "R.L. Shep" > > Some of you may recall that there was a prolonged discussion about how we > should take all the old costume books and put them on disk to preserve them > In the July 12 issue of Newsweek under Technology there is an article > entitled *History: We're Losing It-- They told us digital would last > forever. They lied. How do we save the past before it all disappears?* > Although it does not specifically talk about costume books it is certainly > worth reading and learning from. > I basically comes down to *yesterday's miracle drug is today's poison*. > There never is an easy answer to these problems. > ~!~ R.L.Shep > http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 07:16:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA30137 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 07:16:05 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA27468; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 06:27:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id GAA05176 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 06:25:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id GAA05162 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 06:25:29 -0600 (MDT) From: Schmitt100@aol.com Received: from Schmitt100@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id uLPQa18193 (14413) for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:24:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:24:53 EDT Subject: H-COST: Finished Outfit!!! To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Schmitt100@aol.com Wow, my Very First Historical Outfit, partially done for Faire on Saturday! And it looked GOOD! I did a upper-middle class Eliz. woman. I finally received my stays and hoopwire at noon on Friday, so as soon as it arrived, I went to work. The corset wasn't anywhere near as hard as I thought it would be (however I learned a tip - use tin snips to cut corset stays - they snip through easy as paper! Thanks hubby!). The farthingale came out as well. The bum roll of course was quite easy (although a question about washing - it isn't as fully stuffed since I washed it - how do you keep that from happening?). The overskirt is of a forest green (rayon poly blend, but lightweight enough for the 90F plus high humidity in Chicago in July!) and I actually cartridge stitched it into the waistband as well. That wasn't as hard as I thought either - actually I think it was easier to do that than try to pleat the sucker in! The bodice is a rather nice tapestry upholstery remnant. (Unfortunately, the center point didn't go where it was supposed to, exactly, but I was scolded by hubby that NO ONE would notice!) I didn't have enough time to finish an underskirt (I was pleating and hemming the overskirt Saturday morning to go to Faire that afternoon), so I pinned more of the tapestry to the farthingale - hey, it looked good! And I'll finish the underskirt this week, as well as sleeves and skirting and epaulets for the bodice. The whole outfit was topped off by a flat cap and snood and feather fan purcahsed at Faire. The best part, however, was that I entered the costume contest and won for middle class! Now I have to go back next weekend for semi-finals (aww, shucks!). Actually the best part was trying on the skirt after cartridge pleating over the farthingale and bumroll and squealing with delight that it actually looked RIGHT! (However, I couldn't squeal too loud, or jump up and down, cuz hubby was still asleep). Can you tell I'm just a wee bit excited! I always knew h-cost sounded like fun, but now that I've actually DONE an outfit, oh, boy! And once I get mine finished, I start on hubby's! By the way, another thing I didn't get to do is any trimming. What sorts of trim would I use? Plain ribbon? Lacy trim? I don't think I want anything shiny (i.e. metallic) as that would be a bit above my station. Any ideas? hints? tips? Thanks! ********************** Rebecca Schmitt So many books, so little time We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking as we used when we created them. -Albert Einstein schmitt100@aol.com ********************** _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 08:55:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA31751 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:55:01 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA07909; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 07:57:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA17595 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 07:55:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA17584 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 07:55:20 -0600 (MDT) From: DRGurley@aol.com Received: from DRGurley@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6LCLa05643 (3987) for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:54:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:54:07 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Finished Outfit!!! To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: DRGurley@aol.com Could someone describe cartridge pleating or cite a source for instruction? I'm going to be working on an Elizabethan skirt and it sounds like that may be the best way to handle the upholstery material I've chosen. Thanks! Dani G _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 09:15:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA32102 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:15:39 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11298; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:26:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA23011 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:25:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA22995 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:24:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from c59303-a ([24.4.53.172]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990707142456.ITSH5136.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@c59303-a> for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 07:24:56 -0700 Message-ID: <003a01bec884$865f8dc0$ac350418@c59303-a.mckiny1.tx.home.com> From: "Franchesca Havas" To: Subject: H-COST: pleating again :) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:24:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" I have a question. It has come up that box pleats and cartridge pleats come from different areas of Europe and time periods. Which one was in use for Henry the VIII? Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas motto: Numquam scribae ridente fide -----Original Message----- From: DRGurley@aol.com To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 9:09 AM Subject: Re: H-COST: Finished Outfit!!! : :-Poster: DRGurley@aol.com : :Could someone describe cartridge pleating or cite a source for instruction? :I'm going to be working on an Elizabethan skirt and it sounds like that may :be the best way to handle the upholstery material I've chosen. : :Thanks! :Dani G : _________________________________________________________________ : To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com : with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME : _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 09:58:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA00036 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:58:06 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17861; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:07:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA01586 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:05:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from april.dnaco.net (april.dnaco.net [207.238.206.9]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA01529 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:05:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kirk.dnaco.net (aleed@kirk.dnaco.net [207.238.206.3]) by april.dnaco.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA12632 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:05:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (aleed@localhost) by kirk.dnaco.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA15961 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:05:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: kirk.dnaco.net: aleed owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:05:46 -0400 (EDT) From: aleed To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Finished Outfit!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: aleed I have a cartridge-pleating tutorial online at http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/cartpleat/ Enjoy, Drea Leed On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 DRGurley@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: DRGurley@aol.com > > Could someone describe cartridge pleating or cite a source for instruction? > I'm going to be working on an Elizabethan skirt and it sounds like that may > be the best way to handle the upholstery material I've chosen. > > Thanks! > Dani G > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 12:06:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA02271 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:06:29 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11553; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:15:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA02077 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:13:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from deimos.worldonline.nl (deimos.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.136]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA02063 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:13:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from worldonline.nl (leda.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.135]) by deimos.worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA02001 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:13:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pc2 (vp181-53.worldonline.nl [195.241.181.53]) by worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA13217 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:13:42 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199907071713.TAA13217@worldonline.nl> From: "Henk 't Jong" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 18:56:31 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi all, I wrote: > Don't make the mistake that techniques could reach far-out places fast in > this period; communication for example between courts, was very frequent > indeed. That should have been: 'couldn't reach'. That'll teach me to answer people in a hurry... Henk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 12:46:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA02925 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:46:16 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19227; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:54:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA10844 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:51:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.pacifier.com (root@smtp.pacifier.com [199.2.117.96]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA10765 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:51:24 -0600 (MDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com Received: from grendal2 (ip223.van23.pacifier.com [216.65.138.223]) by smtp.pacifier.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA21019 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907071751.KAA21019@smtp.pacifier.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:55:20 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: H-COST: pleating again :) Priority: normal In-reply-to: <003a01bec884$865f8dc0$ac350418@c59303-a.mckiny1.tx.home.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > I have a question. It has come up that box pleats and cartridge pleats come > from different areas of Europe and time periods. Which one was in use for > Henry the VIII? Both were in use. In fact, there are portraits where it is fairly obvious that they can be used together in the same garment! I don't have immediate access to the specific portraits but if you look at the waists of the ones in Holbein's painting, the Visual History of Costume (16th Century), Boucher's book (20,000 years of Costume or whatever it is called in your country), Davenport's book (although it is harder to see in B&W) or any good book of 16th Century portraits, you may be able to find them yourself. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 15:10:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05383 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:10:31 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15029; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:17:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA14576 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:14:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from deimos.worldonline.nl (deimos.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.136]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA14515 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:14:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from worldonline.nl (leda.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.135]) by deimos.worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA20759 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:14:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pc2 (vp181-16.worldonline.nl [195.241.181.16]) by worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA20260 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:14:19 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199907072014.WAA20260@worldonline.nl> From: "Henk 't Jong" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:15:54 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi list, My compliments to Robin for her very lucid description of how medieval tailors worked. I completely agree and reached my conclusions roughly the same way, although I'm only just branching out into the 15th c now. There's an added fact too. You'll have to realise that we are used to making patterns on paper. Paper was rare and very expensive during almost the whole 14th c and only used for writing on. The same goes for parchment or vellum, which was even more expensive. Both were almost only available in relatively small formats; about A3 or A2 at the most if parchment was made from a foul or calf. Mostly they were from goat, lamb or sheep and the usable part just wasn't any bigger. Paper was made in double size A4 types maximum (well, not exactly, but near) or even single A4's. This was just too small to make patterns on, if they had wanted or needed to, that is. Patterns on cloth or measuring older garments were probably done, but, what the heck, these sewing artists knew what they were doing and, IMO, worked almost intuitively with a real tailor's eye. > (By cotehardie, I'm guessing you mean the fitted dress worn by Western > European noblewomen in the late 14th and early 15th century. I don't use > the term quite so generally myself, but that seems to be what people mean > nowadays.) > I agree here. IMO a cotte hardi (which is how it was mostly written at the time) is a very specific garment for the idle rich, who didn't have to bend over while working for a living. > Fashion tends toward to extremes, so fitting became tighter and tighter -- > but that happened gradually, over decades. Then necklines began to inch > wider and lower. If you take the columnar fitted dress of mid-century, > with its relatively high jewel-neck, and cut that neckline progressively > lower, you find that this releases pressure on the upper bosom, so the > continuing pressure of the fabric on the lower bosom pushes the breasts > higher. Actually: the courtly ladies in the Romance d'Alexandre (ms Bodley 264), dated ca 1338, already have very low-necked dresses, which sometimes even leave (part of) their shoulders bare. > Alternatively, I've seen no illustrations suggesting a separate foundation > garment or body shaper under a 14th-century fitted dress. And that's after > examining many dozens of illustrations of women half-unlaced, or in the > process of dressing, or nursing. Over and over, you see the fitted gown > unlaced to show a plain unfitted chemise underneath, and nothing else. Nor > is there any evidence I know of in written records that names or suggests > such a garment. I can't of course say that nothing of the sort ever > existed, but I feel pretty confident in saying it certainly was not in > routine wear. > Nor have I in 30 years of looking at medieval pictures seen such a foundation garment... ever. > I would guess that the development of foundation garments helped make > possible the regular use of patterns, and also the expansion of tailoring > as a profession. Certainly by the 1500s, tailors could routinely work > independently of their clients, from measurements only. A pretty interesting theory: I'll have to think this one over... > Perhaps it would help if you considered that 14th-century fitted dress to > *be* the foundation garment. After all, it was typically covered by a > second gown; that may have been a fitted overgown (what I would call a > cotehardie, as distinct from a fitted dress worn directly over a shift), My sentiments exactly! Cotte hardi, that is...:-) > or it may have been a fuller garment like a houppelande. Either way, the > dress on the inside would be doing all the hard work of molding and > holding the figure. That dress would have been worn as an everyday basic > garment, and subject to intensive daily wear and perspiration. The perspiration was mostly caught by the shift, but practice learns that you'll have to wash you (under)cotte regularly in summer. This could be a pointer in the direction that summer undercottes (or cottes) were of linen, which keeps better in the laundry than wool does. But so far I have found no real evidence for this. Have you already, Robin? Cheers, Henk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 15:51:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA06119 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:51:36 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22893; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:00:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA24592 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:58:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA24561 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:58:41 -0600 (MDT) From: Schmitt100@aol.com Received: from Schmitt100@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6GICa18193 (14366) for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 16:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6b846d8f.24b51918@aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 16:56:56 EDT Subject: H-COST: Cartridge Pleating To: h-costume-digest@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Schmitt100@aol.com This is a great explanation with wonderful pictures. I was doing out of a book with no pictures, but found that the explanations just made it *sound* difficult - it really was a snap! (Of course, I cheated and only did one row of gathering stitches, as I was using a fairly lightweight fabric.) I also found that quilting thread worked great as the gathering stitch thread, as it's coated/waxed for ease of quilting thru many layers. By the way, Drea, your costuming pages are wonderful and I spend many (supposed to be working) hours drooling there! Thanks! ********************** Rebecca Schmitt So many books, so little time We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking as we used when we created them. -Albert Einstein schmitt100@aol.com ********************** In a message dated 7/7/99 3:41:10 PM Central Daylight Time, owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com writes: > I have a cartridge-pleating tutorial online at > http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/cartpleat/ > > Enjoy, > > Drea Leed _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 16:07:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA06342 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 16:07:10 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25551; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:16:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA29140 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:15:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.mc.net (mail.mc.net [209.172.128.4]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id PAA29050 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:15:33 -0600 (MDT) From: lynnx@mc.net Received: (qmail 27114 invoked from network); 7 Jul 1999 21:15:25 -0000 Received: from tntmodem1-118.mc.net (HELO HEATHERL) (209.172.133.118) by mail.mc.net with SMTP; 7 Jul 1999 21:15:25 -0000 Message-ID: <3783E548.309@mc.net> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 16:39:52 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Archival ink suggestion (shot in the dark) References: <199907072015.OAA14704@indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: mail.mc.net 1.6.1 0/1000/N Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: lynnx@mc.net > Digital printed out photos start to fade withing 6 months; i have > recently found a supplier of archival ink but not for my printer. > Any thoughts > Dave > Ink refill kits? What kind of printer do you have? Also, where is this company? I want some! (some day... sound kinda expensive) If they make refill kits for your printer, you could try getting a kit (usually has a syringe), save empty cartridges, and try to get their ink in a container you can get it out of. Then use the kit refill your cartridges with their ink. (You might have to use up the ink in the refil kit first.) ****CAUTION****!!! Ink refill kits work fine for some people, others get everything from lousy output to ruined printers. If you are not a gadget-head or are running a gigabuck printer, BE CAREFUL, try it out on a cheaper printer, or just *don't* - Contact the highest-up person you can at the ink co. and ask them to make cartridges for your printer. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 20:18:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA10505 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 20:18:19 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07637; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:28:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA21299 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 16:24:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA20996 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 16:23:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from c59303-a ([24.4.53.172]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990707222305.NQAS5136.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@c59303-a> for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:23:05 -0700 Message-ID: <00a701bec8c7$5f31d120$ac350418@c59303-a.mckiny1.tx.home.com> From: "Franchesca Havas" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:17:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" So how did the term cotehardie come into being? We know of stories of why a garment is called the gates of hell, how about this one? Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas motto: Numquam scribae ridente fide -----Original Message----- From: Robin Netherton To: Historic Costume List Date: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 12:31 PM Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 20:18:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA10509 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 20:18:39 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07699; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:29:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA26783 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 16:41:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA26569 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 16:41:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem39.hulk.pol.co.uk ([195.92.6.39] helo=herimats) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 1120N9-0004Ll-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:40:59 +0100 Message-ID: <00bb01bec8c9$c9283630$43065cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: <199907072015.OAA14704@indra.com> <3783E548.309@mc.net> Subject: Re: H-COST: Archival ink suggestion (shot in the dark) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:39:02 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" ----- Original Message ----- > > -Poster: lynnx@mc.net > > Ink refill kits? What kind of printer do you have? Also, where is this > company? I want some! (some day... sound kinda expensive) The co. I mentioned were offering replacement cartridges only and then only for High end I; e expensive Canon printers. I will have to try ans ee if I have still got the message somewhere.> > If they make refill kits for your printer, you could try getting a kit > (usually has a syringe), save empty cartridges, and try to get their ink > in a container you can get it out of. Then use the kit refill your > cartridges with their ink. (You might have to use up the ink in the > refil kit first.) I use colour ink refills on my cheap Canon printers The biggest bottles Ican get and black refills on all printers.Its fine for graphics etc; However I do most of my photographic quality output on an HP Deskjet 1120; I dont use refills on this because the yellow always runs out first and the refill yellow is not fine enough it blocks and stops and starts. On ordinary paper as well as photo type paper. I might try the service that refills the catridges for you , but this will most probably be the same problem; they are all still waterbased inks and so will fade rapidly.. Although I have seen a Lex printer that includes a varnishing sytem I have not found anybody that as actually used one . In the predigital days when we used to use a Roneo machine it had a spray attachment that sprayed each sheet as it came out of the back Will someone please invent one for deskjet printers. Dave , _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 20:20:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA10516 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 20:19:59 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07963; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:30:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA02842 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:20:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [209.48.224.31]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA02744 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:19:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lindo (p53.a4.du.radix.net [207.192.130.181]) by mail1.radix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA14511 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.0.1.19990707140413.00edcd50@saltmine.radix.net> X-Sender: lindo@saltmine.radix.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 15:18:42 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Kevin + Mara Riley Subject: Re: H-COST: Womens' period "plaid" info? In-Reply-To: <377EDB52.181@mc.net> References: <199907031129.FAA20982@indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Kevin + Mara Riley That's correct -- the term 'plaid' is a lowland term referring to the fact that the garment is made of cloth that has been pleated (no, the pleats aren't sewn in, at least in the early period). You basically take your cloak cloth, pleat it, and wrap it around you. Since the plaid often doubled as one's blanket at night, it wouldn't have been practical to sew the pleats in permanently. Plaids also could be of plain (i.e., not tartan) cloth. The arisaidh is NOT a skirt. It's a piece of cloth worn in addition to chemise, skirt, and bodice, to act as a cloak/covering. There are several ways of wearing the arisaidh. One is simply to drape it over your head, with the center of the length of cloth at the top of your head, and then belt it around you; or pin the two front edges at your breast, and wear it like a shawl. Belting does help keep it out of the way if you're going to be very active, though. The other way is to pleat it like a man's kilt, but along the shorter width of the cloth, not its length. You then belt it around your waist, and pin the top two edges at your breast (or just one of the top corners, if you so choose). I have seen no documentation whatsoever as to whether women's arisaidhs were wrapped 'opposite' to men's plaids. I think that rumor derives from the Victorian convention of having men's and women's garments fasten differently. Also, kilts are men's garments. Properly speaking, women wear pleated skirts, usually longer than knee-length. The modern man's kilt basically derives (in the latter part of the 1700s, I believe) from the 'great kilt', but with the part of the fabric that is above the belt cut off. The sash is sometimes worn to simulate the effect of the top of the great plaid (sort of). Cheers, Mara At 08:56 PM 07/03/1999 -0700, you wrote: > >-Poster: lynnx@mc.net > >(FWIW to whomever: The word "plaid" had nothing to do with pattern >originally; it meant a large piece of cloth used as a shawl, blanket, >clothes, etc.) > >Alianora, > >Do you have any *reliable, understandable* info about the women's >arasaid (?sp) / skirt combo, especially the size and shape of fabric >they used? I'd *swear* the way the pictures look, the women could have >wrapped a sufficiently wide piece around the waist for the skirt >(selvedge vertical) and then just draped the top like the guys did, with >some style variations of their own. (Also I heard the women wrapped >their skirt/"kilts" opposite the way the men did.) > >Any insights on this? > >Thanks, >Sister Ed Kevin + Mara Riley Home Page http://www.radix.net/~lindo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 20:28:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA10685 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 20:28:34 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA09039; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:38:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA00894 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:37:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zeus.directcon.net (root@zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA00874 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:37:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r4p28.directcon.net [206.170.184.77]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA25483 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907080136.SAA25483@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson >-Poster: "Franchesca Havas" > >So how did the term cotehardie come into being? We know of stories of why a >garment is called the gates of hell, how about this one? With absolutely no substantiation, I'll say that I've been told that it's a "cote for the foolhardy". Could be true, I suppose. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 20:42:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA10991 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 20:42:45 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10955; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:53:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA03484 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:51:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from eliz@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA03478; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:51:56 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 19:51:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199907080151.TAA03478@indra.com> From: "StitchWitch" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Fwd: More on V. of Willendorf (fwd) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "StitchWitch" >From another list, I found it to be a very interesting article. > > > >STONE AGE FIGURINES DRESSED TO TELL > >Scripps Howard News Service > >Must credit Pittsburgh Post-Gazette > >Recommended for weekend use > >By BYRON SPICE > > > >Pittsburgh Post-Gazette > > > >Besides a woven hat and a pair of dainty bracelets, the voluptuous > >Venus of Willendorf doesn't wear so much as a smile. So perhaps it's > >not surprising that the exaggerated sexual features of this stone-cold > >babe ... a 4-inch-tall limestone figurine unearthed near Willendorf, > >Austria, in 1908 ... have mesmerized archaeologists and art historians > >much as the charms of Pamela Anderson Lee have distracted otherwise > >diligent Web surfers. > > > >But experts now are taking a second look at the scanty bits of apparel > >worn by Miss Willendorf and by some of the hundreds of other "Venus" > >figurines that have been preserved from Ice Age Europe. They say the > >necklaces, string skirts and other "Venus-wear" that do so little to > >hide the obvious are proving to be equally revealing about the > >hunter-gatherer societies that existed along the receding glaciers. > > > >These odd and mysterious figurines suggest that people living 26,000 > >years ago possessed well-developed weaving skills that were at least as > >valuable to the community as the strength and prowess of male hunters. > >Even the head dress worn by the Venus of Willendorf arguably reflects > >social traditions still seen today in the babushkas worn by women in > >Eastern Europe or even the bonnets favored by Amish women in America. > > > >These new insights, ironically, are derived from Venus-wear that has > >been in plain sight for decades. > > > >"The vast majority of folks have simply ignored the fact that these are > >woven fabrics," said James Adovasio, director of the Mercyhurst > >Archaeological Institute in Erie, Pa. It's an oversight he attributes > >to the mindset of archaeologists. Stone implements, not textiles, > >supposedly were state of the art during the Paleolithic period, the > >Stone Age. > > > >"When you have these stereotypes, you don't look beyond the > >stereotype," he explained. > > > >But those assumptions began to change a couple years ago, when > >Adovasio, his Mercyhurst colleague David Hyland and University of > >Illinois anthropologist Olga Soffer uncovered evidence that the > >Paleolithic people in what is now the Czech Republic were making twine, > >fashioning nets and even producing cloth. > > > >The textiles themselves hadn't survived more than 20 millenia, but the > >cordage and woven articles had left impressions in the mud floors of > >huts. Those preserved impressions enabled Adovasio and Hyland to > >indirectly study the long-gone textiles, even allowing them to analyze > >types of knots. > > > >"Simply having the ability to make string must have dramatically > >changed people's lives," said Elizabeth Barber, a linguist and > >archaeologist at Occidental College, near Los Angeles. String lets > >people haul things and catch things in nets. "I call it the string > >revolution. It must have been as powerful as the invention of writing > >and the wheel." > > > >Nets, in particular, suggest that hunter-gatherers need not have relied > >on hunting mammoths, deer and other big game. Women and even children > >likely would have been involved in hunting small game, constructing and > >hanging nets and then chasing varmints into the trap. > > > >But studying Ice Age textiles is like chasing phantoms, so Soffer, > >Adovasio and Hyland are pursuing other lines of evidence in hopes of > >further bolstering their claims. The Venus figurines are one such > >effort. > > > >In the case of the Venus of Willendorf, Adovasio said, they knew they > >were dealing with an icon. When he and Soffer went to examine the > >statuette at the Naturhistorisches Museum in Vienna, they found > >themselves escorted to an inner room with special lighting, where > >museum officials produced the figurine from a special leather case > >embossed in gold. > > > >"I told them I needed to hold it to examine it," Adovasio said. "It was > >like I was asking to touch the Holy Grail." When given permission, he > >focused on the Venus' head, which has no facial features, but an > >intricately carved covering. "They thought it was an elaborate > >hairstyle," but it was unlike any hairdo he had ever seen. He came away > >convinced that it was a woven cap, not woven hair, with concentric rows > >of plaited material. > > > >Only a minority of the Venus figurines have any apparel. Adovasio and > >his colleagues, however, have noted the presence of belts, bracelets, > >various headcoverings, string skirts and bandeaux, narrow strips of > >material worn on the torso. "Even the so-called naked ones often have > >necklaces and bandeaux, which are often written off as tattoos," he > >noted. "iBut tattoos with seams?" > > > >A notable aspect of Venus-wear is the detail in which it is depicted. > >The figurines generally aren't very realistic ... the pear-shaped, > >disproportioned Venus of Willendorf likely had as much resemblance to > >women of the Paleolithic as she does to contemporary women. The Venus > >heads usually have no faces. > > > >Yet the detail of the Venus-wear is tremendous. "You can tell which way > >the string was twisted," Adovasio said. "It's really kind of amazing." > > > >At the simplest level, he said, the depiction of fabric provides > >evidence that Paleolithic people were familiar with cloth, which would > >suggest that weaving had been developing for hundreds of thousands of > >years before the figurines were carved or molded. > > > >"This has been my argument for more than a quarter of a century," said > >Alexander Marshack, an image analyst for Harvard University's Peabody > >Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology. "The capacity was there. It is the > >human capacity. The basic skills are human and found all over the > >world. > > > >"Weaving was just a way of problem solving," he continued. "They had no > >metal, but they used everything available in their ecology. They were > >just like us. We have become more technically advanced, not smarter." > > > >His argument was based only on this rationale, rather than > >archaeological evidence, so many scientists dismissed it. Now that > >Soffer and Adovasio are finding textile artifacts, "I feel, perhaps, a > >little vindicated," he said. > > > >But when trying to determine what these figurines meant to Paleolithic > >people, "you have to be careful about what you deduce from the > >evidence," he cautioned. > > > >"It's hard to say what they mean," agreed Rosemary Joyce, an > >anthropologist at the University of California-Berkeley who studies > >South American figurines dating back 3,500 years. These sorts of > >figurines are found throughout the world and the ages and, like symbols > >today, they likely meant different things to different people. > > > >It's probably safe to assume that the statuettes were a means of > >communication used by preliterate people, she said. Just as a newspaper > >focuses on things that are new, interesting or significant while > >ignoring everyday details, the people who made these clay or stone > >figurines weren't so much interested in reflecting society as they were > >in representing moments of importance. > > > >So the fact that they expended so much energy on the details of apparel > >suggests there is something important about these items. Likewise, "the > >absence of skin (or fur) clothing thrusts the few woven objects into > >high relief," Joyce said. Perhaps the makers are commenting on the > >importance of textiles in their lives, or use the woven objects to > >identify people who are weavers, or the woven objects could simply be > >ceremonial clothing that denotes an individual's status. > > > >Soffer and colleagues noted that some figurines have string skirts. > >Occidental's Barber has traced the use of string skirts from the late > >Stone Age through the Bronze Age to present day; consistently, string > >skirts have been a sign of fertility. > > > >Even today, girls in Albania wear string skirts only after reaching > >puberty. > > > >Likewise, if the Venus of Willendorf is indeed wearing a head covering, > >it too might be related to a present-day practice. Barber said women in > >some cultures, seeing the hair as an analogue for pubic hair, routinely > >cover their heads after marriage. It's a tradition still seen in > >Eastern Europe and one that has been taken a step further by the Amish, > >who cover the hair of girls and women alike. > > > >"You have to take all this with a grain of salt,"Barber added. "But the > >material all hangs together." > > > >Symbolism aside, the evidence of Ice Age textiles continues to grow. > >Soffer, now on sabbatical, has been traveling across Russia, Germany > >and France, gathering photos and casts of woven clothing for Adovasio > >and Hyland to analyze. > > > >She reports seeing what appear to be bone and ivory weaving tools, such > >as battens, and some impressions of what may be basketry. "This is all > >work very much in progress," she said in an e-mail message. > > > >This summer, Adovasio has joined her in France, where they hope to > >examine the only known examples of Ice Age fabrics ... stamp-size bits > >that, when excavated in the 1920s, were assumed to be more recent > >textiles that had somehow gotten mixed into an Ice Age site. > > > >The Venus figurines not only reinforce the significance of these > >textile artifacts, but provide the "ideological overtones" of the > >Paleolithic peoples, Adovasio said. "They're expressing what society > >believes was important." > > > >(Distributed by Scripps Howard News Service.) > > > > > > > --------- End forwarded message ---------- > Kate ---- StitchWitch Man is certainly stark mad: he cannot make a flea, yet he makes gods by the dozens. - Montaigne, Essays - 1588 _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 21:54:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA12237 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:54:36 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20038; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:02:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA15209 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 20:59:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA15198 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 20:59:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costume (207-172-63-64.s64.tnt3.rcm.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.63.64]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with SMTP id WAA05616; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000101bec8ed$c4510140$403faccf@costume> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "h-costume" Subject: H-COST: Austin Power's Designer Interview Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:58:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" Costume designer from Austin Powers: http://www.cnn.com/STYLE/9907/06/appel.transcript/ Later... Penny Ladnier The Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 22:25:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA12752 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:25:15 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23956; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:29:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA19507 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:27:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id VAA19494 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:27:51 -0600 (MDT) From: BarbMVD@aol.com Received: from BarbMVD@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6YFJa12097 (3948) for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3c85c960.24b5745a@aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:26:18 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Womens' period "plaid" info? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: BarbMVD@aol.com The plaid (pronounced "plade", is and always has been a garment. If I may butt in, your discussion of the arisaid seems to cover a far greater time period than would be appropriate, and brings the arisaid into the Victorian era, far overextending its actual wear. It is in fact one of the earlier garments but it was still worn at the end of the 17c. And yes, it would seem to be the female version of the belted plaid. An early description : "The ancient dress . . . is a white Plade, having a few small stripes of black, blew and red, it reached from the Neck to the Heels, and was tied before on the Breast with a Buckle of Silver or Brass, according to the Quality of the person." "The Plad being pleated all around, was tied with a Belt below the Breast; the Belt was of Leather, and several pieces of Silver intermixed with the leather like a Chain. The Lower end of the Belt has a piece of Plate, about 8 inches long, and three in breadth, curiously engraven, the end of which was adorned with fine Stones or pieces of Corral." There are two illustrations of the Arisad/aristad on pages 170 and 205 of McIan's Costumes of the Clans first published in 1845 and reprinted in 1980 by Alfred A. Knopf as "The Clans of the Scottish Highlands. Among the descriptions of the 1740's, the letters of Edward Burt provide great insight - ". . made of silk or fine worsted, chequered with various lively colours, two breadths wide and three yards in length, it is brought over the head, and may hide or discover the face according to the wearers fancy or accason, it reaches to the waist behind, one corner low as the ancle on one side, and the other part in folds hangs down from the opposite arm." Now about the belted plaid worn by the men, the originals were long pieces of cloth, 12 to 15 feet, which wrapped around the wearer being pleated as he wrapped and fastened at the waist by a belt or a cord. It was wrapped so as to leave a long length on the end which was brought over the shoulder and tucked in or fastened. The modern kilt of feileadh beag (little plaid) consisted of a separation of the early garment into a pleated portion and a length to be fastened at the shoulder. This new style was popularized about 1720 and the sewn in place pleating was from that time. And since the plaid is the garment, it is equally important to remember the definition of tartan. In the old sense it referred to a kind of cloth, a thin hard material made from wool spun very fine and woven at as many as 70 threads to the inch, its texture was more like linen. This old hard tartan was extremely durable and waterproof. In the 18th century (my time period) uniform clan tartans did not exist, and in Martin's writings 1703 - "Every isle differs from each other in their Fancy in making Plads, as to the Stripes in Breadth and Colours. This Humour is as different through the main Land of the Highlands, in so far that they who have seen those places, are able at the first View of a man's Plad, to guess the Place of his Residence . . . " >From the viewpoint of the reenactor up to and through the 18th century, those who wear the Plaid must remember to treat this fabric as functional garb, not the decorative nonsense of the Victorian period. Barbara Delorey _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 22:28:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA12773 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:28:44 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA25137; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:38:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA21098 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:37:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id VAA21090 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:37:43 -0600 (MDT) From: M311@aol.com Received: from M311@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6NTPa03246 (14389) for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:35:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:35:24 EDT Subject: H-COST: OT--Seattle, WA area To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: M311@aol.com I have noticed that people on this list are from the Seattle area. I am looking for someone from the Seattle/Everett/Lynnwood area. My brother just moved there and is a single father. He has 2 girls. The one is chubby and he is trying to find clothes for her. Does anyone know of a place that carries clothes for girls that has half sizes? She can wear some 14/16 but she is only 8 years old. Trying to find the little girl styles has proven hard. He has tried Walmart, Kmart and Target with not much luck. She isn't real tall either. I am to far away to sew for her and my mom said she hasn't sewn in years. I would like private responses since this is off topic. I just didn't know of a store to tell him and thought maybe you all would know. Thanks, Kelly m311@aol.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 22:43:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA13080 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:43:43 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26852; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:53:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA23451 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:50:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id SAA23428 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:50:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sue.computercrafters.com (pm3frd1-68-71.intrepid.net [206.102.68.71]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA03105 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 20:50:42 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990707205313.00811a10@intrepid.net> X-Sender: sshatto@intrepid.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 20:53:13 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Sue Shatto Subject: H-COST: Price reduction for Miniature Millinery Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id WAA13080 Status: O -Poster: Sue Shatto Historic Millinery in Miniatures Price Sheet Miniature Style Price    Alexandra - 1893 $99.00 now $60    Autumn Capote - 1880 $99.00 now $60    Czarina - 1904 $79.00 now $50    Duchess Of Leinster - 1780 $99.00 now $60    Fanchon - 1850 $79.00 now $50    Glengarry - 1817 $79.00 now $50    Green Bibi - 1830 $99.00 now $60    Josephine - 1795 $79.00 now$50    Leghorn - 1912 $79.00 now $60    Lunardi - 1784 $99.00 now $60    Pamela - 1815 $99.00 now $60    Pink Bibi - 1821 $99.00 now $60    Spring Capote - 1882 $99.00 now $60    Young Victoria - 1837 $79.00 now $50    Set Of Boxes $50.00 now $30 All miniature shoes are now $20 _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 23:19:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA13622 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:19:45 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03138; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:28:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA28408 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:27:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sd.znet.com (sd.znet.com [207.167.64.5]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA28369 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:27:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [207.167.66.53] (sdts10-53.znet.net [207.167.66.53]) by sd.znet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/jjb-sd) with ESMTP id VAA17805 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199907061722.LAA26910@indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Julie Adams I think these are the support garments in question. I've seen some with spagetti straps, but clearly these don't have any. And anyone who'se ever made a victorian corset cut like this, and tried it on before the bones are in, will tell you that without something stiff, the top will roll right over. I don't see how these garments would work without some stiffening. http://www.idyllmtn.com/savaskan/bathhouse_babes.html Julie Adams _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 7 23:37:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA13956 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:37:40 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA05600; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:45:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA00723 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:43:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zeus.directcon.net (root@zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA00716 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:43:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r4p28.directcon.net [206.170.184.77]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA15985 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907080442.VAA15985@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: H-COST: Fwd: More on V. of Willendorf (fwd) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson I just HAVE to take issue with this statement: >> >A notable aspect of Venus-wear is the detail in which it is depicted. >> >The figurines generally aren't very realistic ... the pear-shaped, >> >disproportioned Venus of Willendorf likely had as much resemblance to >> >women of the Paleolithic as she does to contemporary women. Not very realistic? IMHO, the Venus is a very realistic depiction of a very fat woman. Obviously, most people today don't see a lot of fat women naked..but that IS what we look like! Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 10:03:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23472 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:03:00 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09732; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:14:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA02386 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:12:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA02352 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:12:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ringo.excite.com ([199.172.152.145]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990708151219.QOEX19015.gigi@ringo.excite.com> for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 08:12:19 -0700 From: "StitchWitch" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Fwd: More on V. of Willendorf (fwd) Message-Id: <931446738.29258.596@excite.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 08:12:18 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 144.163.130.106 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "StitchWitch" > I just HAVE to take issue with this statement: > > >> >A notable aspect of Venus-wear is the detail in which it is depicted. > >> >The figurines generally aren't very realistic ... the pear-shaped, > >> >disproportioned Venus of Willendorf likely had as much resemblance to > >> >women of the Paleolithic as she does to contemporary women. > > Not very realistic? IMHO, the Venus is a very realistic depiction of a very > fat woman. Obviously, most people today don't see a lot of fat women > naked..but that IS what we look like! > > Margo I wondered about that one myself. Not all of us are model thin! Who would really want to be, with all the trouble it takes to get and stay that way for most of us? (I realize that some folks are thin, and can do nothing about it, which has its own problems.) Besides, those of us who are Goddess sized get to wear lots more pretty fabric! Kate ---- StitchWitch Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim. - Santayana, Life of Reason, 1905 _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 10:09:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23499 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:09:00 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10828; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:20:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA03846 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:19:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu10.smtp.email.msn.com [207.46.181.60]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA03820 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:18:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.106 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 08:00:32 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: , Subject: H-COST: Big clothes for Little Girl Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:08:05 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bec953$bae6a9a0$6a0bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" I sympathize with your brother's problem. I have a friend with a downs syndrome girl about the same age, even heavier than you describe and normal height. She gets by with carefully selected thrift store items and a neighborhood seamstress who alters every last thing, ie the sleeves and legs are always miles too long, and need shortening. When you pay $2 for a garment, you can afford to pay the seamstress $8 to take up the legs or sleeves. This works for tops and bottoms, but tends to be prohibitive for waisted garments. Every Spring and Fall there is the massive effort to provide new clothes that fit for this quickly growing girl. But she always looks just super, incredibly well coordinated and turned out. It is pretty easy to sew for a girl who hasn't yet begun to develop. My far-away female relatives sewed for me all the time. My mother selected and purchased the pattern in the correct size, noted my variations in dimensions. She sent my relatives the pattern and changes required, and clothes would come back. She often sent the actual fabric too. This company will provide perfectly customized patterns for her, but it is somewhat costly for a growing girl: http://www.uniquepatterns.com/index_two.html. The detailed measurements taken are far better than any other Web-based service I've seen, $39 for the initial sign-up, $10-20 for each pattern, then there is more cost to update as she grows. The range of patterns for different life-style situations is comprehensive. Alternatively, your brother could plug her measurements into this on-line pattern sloper drafting site periodically and e-mail the results to you to draft up: http://www.panix.com/~aqn/tailoring/drafting/index.html. It includes bodice, sleeve, skirt, pants, and vest patterns. On-line sources for "standard" plus-size patterns are shown at the bottom of the second list of FAQ below. I am intrigued by the quality, skill, and low price of this internet custom dressmaker in Hawaii. Her site is well worth visiting and considering. She is a skilled pattern drafter and sewer, and her prices are extremely reasonable: http://home.att.net/~merylh/dressmak/patterns.htm. J. C. Penney has a plus size and a super plus size catalog for boys and girls. Their contact is listed in the FAQ below. Several mall stores are really "plus size" stores in disguise, fashions so pretty you may not realize they are plus sizes: April Cornell, Elisabeth, Amanda Fielding, August Max, The Avenue, Lane Bryant. Your brother might call the local malls and ask if they are there. Alterations will still be required however, due to the girl's short stature, so this is the pricey way to go. The Web has some super resources for "plus size" girls: http://www.blessingsindresses.com/plus/2.htm is limited, but good. Here is a list of resources for plus size people that is simply extraordinary: http://www.cs.uu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/fat-acceptance-faq/clot hing/us1.html for stores A-K, http://www.cs.uu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/fat-acceptance-faq/clot hing/us2.html for stores L-Z. These lists are maintained quarterly, cover women, men, boys, and girls, and must be seen to be believed. They have western wear, 501 Levis to size 50, school uniforms, swimsuits and sports apparel, confirmation and party dresses, dance wear and leggings, and riding apparel. If you don't have Web access, write back, and I will copy the entire current listing of hundreds of Web, mail-order, and other stores nationwide. The list is extremely well annotated, and includes a number of well known stores like Eddie Bauer and Lands' End, which you wouldn't normally think of as plus size sources. Specifies precisely what you can expect to find there and the size range and how to access them at the store, i.e. in-store, catalog, special order. Good luck, Hope H. Dunlap _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 10:51:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA24282 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:51:48 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20027; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:03:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA14240 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:01:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from anarchy.io.com (anarchy.io.com [199.170.88.101]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA14213 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:01:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dragon (as1-dialup-88.io.com [206.224.82.88]) by anarchy.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12339 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:01:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199907081601.LAA12339@anarchy.io.com> From: "Amanda Reeves" To: Subject: H-COST: More on V. of Willendorf and a Shakespeare question Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:04:51 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Amanda Reeves" I have to come in on this one. > > >> >A notable aspect of Venus-wear is the detail in which it is depicted. > > >> >The figurines generally aren't very realistic ... the pear-shaped, > > >> >disproportioned Venus of Willendorf likely had as much resemblance to > > >> >women of the Paleolithic as she does to contemporary women. I always tell my sons that these "contemporary women" they see on TV and movies are computer images.........they aren't real. (a little joke from a mom with 4 sons) > > Not very realistic? IMHO, the Venus is a very realistic depiction of a > > very fat woman. Obviously, most people today don't see a lot of fat women > > naked..but that IS what we look like! I wouldn't say VERY fat, but certainly not buff! I personally like the softness of her curves. Can you imagine the ladies back then doing sit-ups? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > I wondered about that one myself. Not all of us are model thin! Who would > really want to be, with all the trouble it takes to get and stay that way > for most of us? (I realize that some folks are thin, and can do nothing > about it, which has its own problems.) I'm a belly dancer, a vegetarian, don't drink alcohol, work out (light weight) at the gym every-other-day during the summer, take a yoga class once a week AND I'M STILL NOT THIN! I certainly can't imagine myself dancing without my full rounded curves! > Besides, those of us who are Goddess sized get to wear lots more pretty > fabric! Even though I'm petite (5'3" size 9/10) I shop in the Plus size departments for this very reason! Nothing feels better than large, loose, soft cloth! (thus the appeal of ME dancing.....veils, scarves, skirts) Now, for a costuming question. Three of my sons are in Shakespeare Under the Stars. http://www.emilyann.org/sutstars.html My 18 year old is playing Edgar in "King Lear". At one point they are going to put him in a loin cloth (where he is posing as a madman). Would Shakespeare have done this? We personally don't care if he's in it or not, but they try to be completely authentic. Amanda _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 12:15:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA25608 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:15:08 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06472; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:24:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA04617 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:23:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.cho.org (mail.cho.org [209.77.137.36]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id LAA04592 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:23:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.19.1.35] ([172.19.1.35]) by mail.cho.org; Thu, 08 Jul 1999 10:22:59 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: ldownward@198.211.240.120 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990707205313.00811a10@intrepid.net> Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:22:11 -0800 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Lynn Downward Subject: Re: H-COST: Price reduction for Miniature Millinery Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: Sue Shatto > >Historic Millinery in Miniatures >Price Sheet > > > Miniature Style Price > Alexandra - 1893 $99.00 now $60 > Autumn Capote - 1880 $99.00 now $60 > Czarina - 1904 $79.00 now $50 > Duchess Of Leinster - 1780 $99.00 now $60 > Fanchon - 1850 $79.00 now $50 > Glengarry - 1817 $79.00 now $50 > Green Bibi - 1830 $99.00 now $60 > Josephine - 1795 $79.00 now$50 > Leghorn - 1912 $79.00 now $60 > Lunardi - 1784 $99.00 now $60 > Pamela - 1815 $99.00 now $60 > Pink Bibi - 1821 $99.00 now $60 > Spring Capote - 1882 $99.00 now $60 > Young Victoria - 1837 $79.00 now $50 > Set Of Boxes $50.00 now $30 > > All miniature shoes are now $20 Sue, please reprint your website for those of us dumb enough not to have bookmarked it. (Im, certainly guilty of that.) LynnD _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 12:21:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA25756 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:21:02 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08161; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:31:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA06473 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:30:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ewey.excite.com (ewey-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.191]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA06336 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:30:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from doby.excite.com ([199.172.152.182]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990708172945.RDHQ18570.ewey@doby.excite.com> for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:29:45 -0700 From: "StitchWitch" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: More on V. of Willendorf Message-Id: <931454984.11261.462@excite.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 10:29:44 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 144.163.130.106 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "StitchWitch" > I wouldn't say VERY fat, but certainly not buff! I personally like the > softness of her curves. Can you imagine the ladies back then doing sit-ups? Perhaps the occasional mad dash away from a saber-tooth, but not sit-ups. I had read a theory that debated the first usage of clothing. It proponded that, rather than covering up one's naughty bits, clothing instead accented them. Thus, one might picture one's ancesters strolling about the early African plains, painted and plaited with procreation in mind. An interesting thought, that . . . Kate ---- StitchWitch Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim. - Santayana, Life of Reason, 1905 _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 12:35:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA25928 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:35:40 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11000; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:47:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA09682 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:45:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA09587 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:45:07 -0600 (MDT) From: RobesOf@aol.com Received: from RobesOf@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6QJCa12667 (8027) for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:44:24 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: More on V. of Willendorf To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com << I had read a theory that debated the first usage of clothing. It proponded that, rather than covering up one's naughty bits, clothing instead accented them. Thus, one might picture one's ancesters strolling about the early African plains, painted and plaited with procreation in mind. An interesting thought, that . . . >> I think thats been done to a degree throughout time (even now). One example I read about is the cod piece having elaborate decorations, I'm assuming to attract the eye to one's masculinity. Although the "naughty bits" are covered, they were designed to attract...with procreation in mind, maybe. Do you think? Erica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 13:28:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA26763 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:28:05 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19686; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:39:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA21390 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:38:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from deimos.worldonline.nl (deimos.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.136]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA21329 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:38:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from worldonline.nl (leda.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.135]) by deimos.worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA07851 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:38:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pc2 (vp181-1.worldonline.nl [195.241.181.1]) by worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA08528 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:38:11 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199907081838.UAA08528@worldonline.nl> From: "Henk 't Jong" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 17:20:22 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi List, Franchesca wrote: > So how did the term cotehardie come into being? We know of stories of why a > garment is called the gates of hell, how about this one? The word 'hardi' means 'bold' or 'brave', and in this instance could have been meant for a person who did not mind that other people say his or her bodyshape in this narrow outfit or 'cotte'. Today it would be named a 'risky garment'. Henk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 19:25:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA32597 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:25:39 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14936; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 18:38:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA25622 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 18:36:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from proxy3.ba.best.com (root@proxy3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.14]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id SAA25608 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 18:36:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from best.com (lavolta.vip.best.com [206.86.95.234]) by proxy3.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.out) with ESMTP id RAA10299; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 17:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378542F1.7C703F2B@best.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 17:31:45 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historic Costume Mailing List , GBACG Mailing List Subject: H-COST: Amazing fabric store discovery Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Lavolta Press My husband and I took this week off to look for tile and fixtures for remodeling the bathroom, with only moderate success so far. However, we discovered the most amazing fabric store. It's the size of a reasonably-sized independent fabric store, and almost all the stock is pure silk fabrics. All the fabrics are natural--no synthetics and no blends. There are a few linens and cottons, but the bulk of the store is pure silks. They have lots of silk taffetas, plain and changeable (shot). They have striped taffetas--all widths of stripes and lots of color combinations--tablecloth check taffeta, and some plaid taffeta (surprisingly little plaid though). (I bought two silk striped fabrics, with subtle color gradations of very narrow stripes, that are perfect for mid-19th-century dresses.) They have pique taffeta (tiny woven patterns), taffeta pintucked in diamond shapes, and taffeta shirred up in "stripes" like the skirts of dresses in some 18th-century portraits. They have silk taffetas printed in big toile de Jouy (sp?) designs. They have machine-embroidered taffetas. They have silk brocades, including paisley patterns, patterns suitable for Renaissance costumes, one 18th-century style pink-floral-stripes-on-white pattern (not a large selection of this type), and some "napeolonic bees" sorts of patterns--not bees precisely, but early 19th-century-style patterns about the right sizes scattered over the fabric. They have silk organzas, plain, changeable, striped, spotted, and with various other woven patterns. They have silk plus metal "tissue" fabric. They have pure silk satins in a good historic dress weight (not the thin modern lingerie weight). They have silk velvet--heavy weight, short pile, probably intended for upholstery but might work for clothes. The few linens displayed (I forget if there were cottons, and I don't think there were wools) were OK, but nothing to get excited about in terms of quality, rarity, price, or the size of the selection. It's really a place to buy silk. The store is oriented toward decorating, which means the average fabric width is about 54", with some 60" and some 45" widths. For most fabrics lots of yardage was on the rolls. Although there are some upholstery weight silks, and books on making curtains are displayed, most of the silks are the proper weight for historic clothing rather than modern upholstery weight. (They do not, however, carry the very thin, slippery silks popular for modern blouses.) They have every color you can imagine--not in every pattern, of course, but most patterns are available in several colors. The patterns are high-quality and tasteful by my standards, none are outstandingly modern, and most are very suitable for historic styles of one period or another. Prices range from $22-$25/yard for dupionis, through $39/yard for plain and changeable taffetas, through about $60/yard for satins and brocades, to $120/yard for the velvet (significantly more expensive than most of their fabrics, though it was about 60" wide). On the whole I'd say the prices are signficantly better than Britex (since this store sells wider fabrics) and the silk selection is bigger. They are perfectly happy to sell retail as well as wholesale, on the spot (rather than back ordering), and if there is any lower limit to the yardage you can buy they didn't tell me about it. The store is: The Silk Trading Co. 1616A 16th Street San Francisco, CA 94103 (415) 282-5574 They also have a store in Los Angeles, but did not give me the address. They say they will swatch and sell by mail. Fran Grimble --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 19:43:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA00157 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:43:43 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18417; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 18:55:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA25867 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:27:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA25683 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:26:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-71-239.irvn11.pacbell.net [206.170.71.239]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25108 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3784A65B.7C4F9B45@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 13:23:45 +0000 From: Dietmar Organization: Completely Disorganized X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04C-PBI-NC404 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Re: Cotehardie Conundrum References: <199907081838.UAA08528@worldonline.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Dietmar Greetings, Henk wrote: > The word 'hardi' means 'bold' or 'brave', and in this instance > could have been meant for a person who did not mind that other > people say his or her bodyshape in this narrow outfit or 'cotte'. > Today it would be named a 'risky garment'. The previously mentioned word 'foolhardy' means someone that is foolishly brave and adventurous, so you can see the relatonship. They also came into use at about the same time. Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 19:44:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA00165 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:44:33 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18603; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 18:56:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA28778 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:02:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com [207.46.181.18]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA28332 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:00:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.135 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:00:18 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: , Subject: H-COST: Unique Patterns Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:06:08 -0400 Message-ID: <000101bec964$348693a0$6a0bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" The cost to update your measurements for Unique Patterns is only $5.00. Given the extraordinary accuracy of the patterns, this might make it a viable option for your plus size girl. I'd guess she would need a pattern update once per year. To get a catalog update is $15, but there's no requirement to get it. The $39 initial fee includes helping to get your measurements and to get the 200-pattern catalogue, and the new pattern updates are on the Website. It's a lifetime membership, and your little girl will be ready to sew herself in 3-4 years, so she can use it the rest of her life. Hope H. Dunlap _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 19:46:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA00177 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:46:05 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18717; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 18:57:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA07842 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:37:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA07797 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:37:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sue.computercrafters.com (pm3frd1-68-78.intrepid.net [206.102.68.78]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA12482 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:37:13 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990708133945.0094fe40@intrepid.net> X-Sender: sshatto@intrepid.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 13:39:45 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Sue Shatto Subject: Re: H-COST: Price reduction for Miniature Millinery In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990707205313.00811a10@intrepid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Sue Shatto I am so sorry. Here is the address http://www.VictorianMillinery.com >> Miniature Style Price >> Alexandra - 1893 $99.00 now $60 >> Autumn Capote - 1880 $99.00 now $60 >> Czarina - 1904 $79.00 now $50 >> Duchess Of Leinster - 1780 $99.00 now $60 >> Fanchon - 1850 $79.00 now $50 >> Glengarry - 1817 $79.00 now $50 >> Green Bibi - 1830 $99.00 now $60 >> Josephine - 1795 $79.00 now$50 >> Leghorn - 1912 $79.00 now $60 >> Lunardi - 1784 $99.00 now $60 >> Pamela - 1815 $99.00 now $60 >> Pink Bibi - 1821 $99.00 now $60 >> Spring Capote - 1882 $99.00 now $60 >> Young Victoria - 1837 $79.00 now $50 >> Set Of Boxes $50.00 now $30 >> >> All miniature shoes are now $20 > > >Sue, please reprint your website for those of us dumb enough not to have >bookmarked it. (Im, certainly guilty of that.) > >LynnD > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 19:48:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA00188 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:48:15 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18709; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 18:57:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA25843 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:27:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA25710 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:26:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-71-239.irvn11.pacbell.net [206.170.71.239]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25144 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3784A75C.8114F8CF@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 13:28:02 +0000 From: Dietmar Organization: Completely Disorganized X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04C-PBI-NC404 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Re: More on V. of Willendorf References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Dietmar Greetings, Erica wrote: > I think thats been done to a degree throughout time (even now). > One example I read about is the cod piece having elaborate > decorations, I'm assuming to attract the eye to one's masculinity. > Although the "naughty bits" are covered, they were designed to > attract...with procreation in mind, maybe. Do you think? I was lead to believe that they were often used to hold poultices to combat the venereal diseases of the day. It wouldn't surprise me, but I don't know the voracity of the story. Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 20:16:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00690 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:16:10 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA22967; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:23:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA02803 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:21:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.netwiz.net (Mail.NetWiz.Net [208.136.106.6]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA02797 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:21:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from slave (BayArea56k467.NetWiz.Net [208.164.208.67]) by mail.netwiz.net (8.9.2/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA10227 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 18:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37854E78.2107@netwiz.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 18:20:56 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Amazing fabric store discovery References: <378542F1.7C703F2B@best.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Susan Fatemi Lavolta Press wrote: > ..... > The store is: > > The Silk Trading Co. > 1616A 16th Street > San Francisco, CA 94103 > (415) 282-5574 > > They also have a store in Los Angeles, but did not give me the address. > They say they will swatch and sell by mail. > > Fran Grimble > Thanks for posting the info., Fran. Have you tried Silk Road on Broadway in Oakland? 45" dupioni is about $12 (?) Last time I was in there, they had Italian foulard silks for about $6/yd. Susan Fatemi > --------------------------------------------- > Visit our web pages! > Books on historic costume and vintage clothes > http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm > Historic and vintage dance > http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 20:31:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00983 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:31:01 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA25032; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:40:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA05309 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:39:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web1105.mail.yahoo.com (web1105.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.125]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id TAA05266 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:39:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19990709013731.5297.rocketmail@web1105.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [38.226.171.40] by web1105.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 08 Jul 1999 18:37:31 PDT Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 18:37:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Carol Mitchell Subject: H-COST: Bristol Faire/Chicagoland Costumer's Guild To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Carol Mitchell Is there anyone on this list who asked to be on our mailing list and has not recieved a message this month? If so, please let me know. I've moved twice, and I know people have been lost in the process. We are doing a group trip to Bristol Renaissance Faire this month, and would like to invite all interested parties to come along or meet us there. My e-mail address is CarolineRi@yahoo.com. Carol Mitchell President Chicagoland Costumer's Guild === Carol Mitchell President Chicagoland Costumer's Guild _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 20:34:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00999 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:34:12 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA25777; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:46:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA06090 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:45:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from proxy3.ba.best.com (root@proxy3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.14]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA06083 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:45:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from best.com (lavolta.vip.best.com [206.86.95.234]) by proxy3.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.out) with ESMTP id SAA17290 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 18:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3785541E.9A0DF629@best.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 18:45:02 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Amazing fabric store discovery References: <378542F1.7C703F2B@best.com> <37854E78.2107@netwiz.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Lavolta Press > > Thanks for posting the info., Fran. Have you tried Silk Road > on Broadway in Oakland? 45" dupioni is about $12 (?) Last > time I was in there, they had Italian foulard silks for > about $6/yd. Yes, I've been to Silk Road in Oakland and it's a good store. Their prices are better, but they don't have nearly the selection the Silk Trading Company does. What amazed me about this store is, if you were to set up a good-sized store devoted almost entirely to high-quality silks in weights, patterns, and colors suitable for pre-20th-century costuming, this store would be it. They seem to expect people to buy for curtains; maybe people who want pure silk curtains are furnishing in antique styles? I'm not a decorator so I don't know. But I saw lots of fabrics there I have never seen before and would never have expected to see all in one place. This is not just your usual selection of taffetas and dupionis (though they have some of those too, and in wider widths than usual). It's not the kind of store where you walk around going, "Oh, they have pure silks but a lot of them look so modern, " or "Yes, they have some pure silk satins but they're all bridal whites and pastels," or "They have some good stuff but you really have to be selective because many of the fabrics are tasteless." _Everything_ except a few heavy upholstery weights is perfect for one costume or another. Fran > > > Susan Fatemi > > > --------------------------------------------- > > Visit our web pages! > > Books on historic costume and vintage clothes > > http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm > > Historic and vintage dance > > http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > -- > Oh Noh! Kimonos! > susanf@netwiz.net > http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME -- --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 21:04:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA01529 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:04:00 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28591; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:15:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA10235 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:14:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from proxy3.ba.best.com (root@proxy3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.14]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA10119 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:14:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from best.com (lavolta.vip.best.com [206.86.95.234]) by proxy3.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.out) with ESMTP id TAA20209 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37855AEC.1BBA84A0@best.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 19:14:05 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Amazing fabric store discovery again References: <378542F1.7C703F2B@best.com> <37854E78.2107@netwiz.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Lavolta Press BTW, I said I didn't see any wool but my husband is claiming he saw a couple bolts of wool satin. Fran --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 21:05:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA01536 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:05:21 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28430; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:12:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA09802 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:11:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA09791 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:11:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id LAA00090 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:40:59 +0930 (CST) Received: by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA20033; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:40:55 +0930 Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:40:52 +0930 (CST) From: The Purple Elephant X-Sender: csmart@bragg To: h-costume@indra.com Cc: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Amazing fabric store discovery In-Reply-To: <37854E78.2107@netwiz.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Susan Fatemi wrote: > > The Silk Trading Co. > > 1616A 16th Street > > San Francisco, CA 94103 > > (415) 282-5574 > > > > They also have a store in Los Angeles, but did not give me the address. > > They say they will swatch and sell by mail. > > > > Fran Grimble > > > Thanks for posting the info., Fran. Have you tried Silk Road > on Broadway in Oakland? 45" dupioni is about $12 (?) Last > time I was in there, they had Italian foulard silks for > about $6/yd. > Stop it! You're making me jealous!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 21:15:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA01697 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:15:41 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29524; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:26:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA12379 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:25:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.netwiz.net (Mail.NetWiz.Net [208.136.106.6]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA12359; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:25:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from slave (BayArea56k467.NetWiz.Net [208.164.208.67]) by mail.netwiz.net (8.9.2/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA20836; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37855D52.22DC@netwiz.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 19:24:18 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vintage@indra.com CC: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: wings of a dove References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Susan Fatemi I know this was discussed awhile back, but I just finally saw the movie. Didn't like the story too much (Agatha Christie did it better!) but the scenes in Venice and the costumes by Sandy Powell were incredible! And there were at least two dresses that just had to be Fortuny (though perhaps a trifle anachronistic for the period) I've never been very interested in this period (1910) until now! Were the clothes authentic to this period?? They seemed very avant-garde and "artsy". Did people wear these gorgeous things or was it just "artistic license"? I always think of "Upstairs Downstairs" in this period and the extremely uptight Lady Marjorie. I wish there were a big book of close-up photos, accompanied by swatches. sigh. Susan Fatemi (by comparison, I saw Phantom Menace and Ever After this weekend, before "Dove". Not worth mentioning in the same breath. Queen Amidala's costumes were just wasted -- they were on screen about 5 seconds each and all the intricate work was completely wasted. I did like the black felt hats of the froggy people.) -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 21:42:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA02160 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:42:42 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02605; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:54:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA16267 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:53:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.leading.net (root@smtp.leading.net [207.98.192.90]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA16240 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 20:52:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from a39193-s2-19-243.leading.net (a39193-s2-19-243.leading.net [216.199.27.243]) by smtp.leading.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA20888 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:52:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907090252.WAA20888@smtp.leading.net> From: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" To: "h-costume@indra.com" Date: Thu, 08 Jul 99 22:42:59 Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.95a For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:26:54 -0700 (PDT), Julie Adams wrote: >I think these are the support garments in question. I've seen some with >spagetti straps, but clearly these don't have any. And anyone who'se ever >made a victorian corset cut like this, and tried it on before the bones are >in, will tell you that without something stiff, the top will roll right >over. I don't see how these garments would work without some stiffening. > >http://www.idyllmtn.com/savaskan/bathhouse_babes.html > >Julie Adams ``````````````````````````````````````` Everyone, I've been to this site and have to agree with Julie. Unless there's a good deal of artistic license involved, more than just dropping the spagetti straps, I would have to bet that she's found the foundation garments. They look like TIGHTLY fitted chemises, but nearly horizontal at the armpits, with the breasts practically up on a shelf and no straps in sight. Someone on this (?) list said that the chemises were clinging because they were wet, but even with straps they'd have to be fairly tight to fit ANYTHING like this. And if the absence of the straps ISN'T artistic license (something we will probably never know), then the bodice of the chemises HAS to be stiffened somehow. Yours in the Dream, Arianne de Dragonnid Shire of Castlemere, Kingdom of Trimaris %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% "The founder of my noble line was wont to see Dragons. His Lady rode out from the forest in a gown of samite and was as young on the day he died as on their wedding day." %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 22:32:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA02954 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:32:41 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08330; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:44:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA22785 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:43:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id VAA22777 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:43:31 -0600 (MDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6QDNa05838 (8080) for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:42:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5fc56718.24b6c9ac@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:42:36 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: wings of a dove To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 7/8/99 10:29:06 PM, you wrote: <> Fortuny was doing his "Delphos" gowns in the period of the film....and up until the 1930s I think, with little changes. The type of people the main characters are would have indeed been avant garde and worn these things. It's what Rose should've looked like in "Titanic" but alas didn't. It is , after all "Le Belle Epoch. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 22:37:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA02973 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:37:53 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08748; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:47:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA23304 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:46:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id VAA23297 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:46:28 -0600 (MDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6YXCa15847 (8080) for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:45:10 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: wings of a dove To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 7/8/99 10:29:06 PM, you wrote: <> Straight outta Japanese history..... "Phantom Menace" is the most unimaginative muck up I've ever seen! I'd seen it all before somewhere else. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 8 23:13:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03592 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:13:42 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA11896; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:23:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA28204 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:22:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.netwiz.net (Mail.NetWiz.Net [208.136.106.6]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA28171 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:22:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from slave (BayArea56k490.NetWiz.Net [208.164.208.90]) by mail.netwiz.net (8.9.2/8.9.1a) with SMTP id VAA06602 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378578C4.41FE@netwiz.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 21:21:24 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: wings of a dove References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Susan Fatemi AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com > > In a message dated 7/8/99 10:29:06 PM, you wrote: > > < felt hats of the froggy people.)>> > > Straight outta Japanese history..... Actually, I think, more central asian. They found a tall black felt headress on the "Ice maiden" (Siberia) and one of the Froggy headresses was like Kalmyk or one of the other Mongol sub-groups. But yes, *like* the Japanese and ancient Chinese black hats. > "Phantom Menace" is the most unimaginative muck up I've ever seen! I'd seen > it all before somewhere else. Too bad. All that money -- he could have done something wonderful. -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 00:52:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA05219 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:52:47 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA20638; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:03:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id AAA10308 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:02:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eagle.sac.verio.net (root@eagle.sac.verio.net [207.159.5.20]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id AAA10269 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:02:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pAprilX (pm09-05.sac.verio.net [209.162.65.118]) by eagle.sac.verio.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA23967 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907090601.XAA23967@eagle.sac.verio.net> X-Sender: AprilX@mail-1.ns.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: AprilX@ns.net (April Athena Genung) Subject: Re: H-COST: Amazing fabric store discovery Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AprilX@ns.net (April Athena Genung) Another place that's very good for silks in the Bay Area is Thai Silk in Los Altos. Most of their things are pretty basic but they do have some beautiful hand painted silks. They also have the most amazing devore velvet I've ever seen. It's rayon but with a silk backing. I don't know how period they are but they do have a wide selection, and very reasonably priced. They also do mail order and will send swatches. Also Fran, if you're redecorating you might want to go to Norman Bernie in San Mateo. Or maybe it's Cliff Bernie. One is the owner and one is the store name, I can never remember which is which! They are a lot of fun too. April _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 01:08:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA05565 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 01:08:36 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22256; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:21:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id AAA12062 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:19:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dgs.dgsys.com (robin@dgs.dgsys.com [204.97.64.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id AAA12050 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:19:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by dgs.dgsys.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA27565 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 02:19:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: dgs.dgsys.com: robin owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 02:19:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Robin Netherton To: "h-costume@indra.com" Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants In-Reply-To: <199907090252.WAA20888@smtp.leading.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Robin Netherton > On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 21:26:54 -0700 (PDT), Julie Adams wrote: > > >I think these are the support garments in question. I've seen some with > >spagetti straps, but clearly these don't have any. And anyone who'se ever > >made a victorian corset cut like this, and tried it on before the bones are > >in, will tell you that without something stiff, the top will roll right > >over. I don't see how these garments would work without some stiffening. > > > >http://www.idyllmtn.com/savaskan/bathhouse_babes.html On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne wrote: > I've been to this site and have to agree with Julie. Unless there's a > good deal of artistic license involved, more than just dropping the > spagetti straps, I would have to bet that she's found the foundation > garments. They look like TIGHTLY fitted chemises, but nearly horizontal > at the armpits, with the breasts practically up on a shelf and no straps > in sight. Someone on this (?) list said that the chemises were clinging > because they were wet, but even with straps they'd have to be fairly > tight to fit ANYTHING like this. And if the absence of the straps ISN'T > artistic license (something we will probably never know), then the > bodice of the chemises HAS to be stiffened somehow. This finally rang a bell for me, and I dug out my copy of Olga Sronkova's "Gothic Woman's Fashion" (Artia: Prague, 1954, printed in Czechoslovakia, no ISBN). The text of this book is rather suspect and suffers further in translation, but the illustrations are great. And she does have what I'm guessing is the picture in question -- I don't have graphic access to the Web, but I'm assuming the picture people have been citing shows two women in strapless dresses with long hair and netted caps, bathing a man whose hands are over his face and who has something, um, large and pear-shaped in a strategic position. (The suggestive nature of that item is probably not a coincidence, as will become clear in a moment.) More than this, Sronkova gives us no less than SIXTEEN more illustrations of bathhouse attendants. They are all from the same manuscript as the one just described -- the Bible of Wenceslas IV. Sronkova tells us this is an unfinished illuminated Bible in German, belonging to the group of manuscripts known as the Wenceslas manuscripts. It was made for Wenceslas IV between 1390-1400, and it "shows an intimate knowledge of the particular tastes of the king." It is in Vienna in the State Library, Codex 2759-2764. Seeing these images as a group, in this context, I'm struck by a few points. First: The main images on the pages of this Bible are the biblical illustrations. The bathhouse illustrations are actually small images in initials or borders. I don't know if Sronkova shows us all the bathkeepers in the Bible, but from what she does give us, it appears that the actual scenes of bathing are in initials (she shows two of these). In the other initials shown, they are standing the way you see saints or the astrological Virgo standing, on display, holding their buckets like attributes, with scrub brushes (? they look like leaves gathered in bunches, or like fans) in their hands, with birds waving banners over their heads. The border scenes are more fanciful, with the bathhouse figures intertwined among grapevines, or riding on strange birds, or some such. In other words, the bathhouse ladies are a recurring decorative theme throughout the Bible, presented as drolleries. In other Bibles, you might find half-man-half-beast figures, or animals with hats and musical instruments, or demons or grotesques filling these positions. Sronkova does not show any other drolleries from this manuscript, save for one fully gowned woman she blithely calls a "bathkeeper in holiday dress." (I take issue with that, as she does not even have a bucket.) But I'd guess there are others besides bathhouse women. Sronkova makes a passing reference: "The manuscript, the personal property of the king, is filled with humorous comments, in the form of marginal illuminations, on the king's likes and dislikes." The man being bathed by the bathkeepers -- in the image discussed above as well as in the other showing a bath scene -- is supposed to be the king. (The thing sitting upended in his lap at such a suggestive angle is one of those scrub-brush thingies the bathkeepers are shown carrying in the other images.) Another marginal shows the king and a bathkeeper in stocks! (Yes, the punishment devices with holes to restrain the arms and legs.) Sronkova also quotes another researcher's theory that the woman in the bathkeeper's garment is the king's wife Sophie, but I don't know what the rationale for that is. It's maddening that Sronkova does not show whole pages -- just images in isolation. I would very much like to see whether there are other human drolleries, and of what type, and whether the presentation of the drolleries counterpoints the action or posture of figures in the main illustrations on the same page. Without seeing the whole Bible, I can't draw a lot of conclusions. But given what I do know of the context, and the fact that all these images appear as a decorative theme in a single Bible -- and there's no evidence that bathkeepers of this sort appear in any other sources -- I would be particularly hesitant to view them as an accurate representation of *anything*. Now, context aside, let's look at the dresses. They seem to be chemises (shifts) -- short, sleeveless, filmy, sometimes transparent. In the one image under discussion, the dresses do look strapless, though there's a pale area on the right-hand lady's left shoulder that may have been a strap once. In the other sixteen illustrations (some of which have two women in them), there are clear shoulder straps. Mostly there are two straps on a dress; a few dresses seem to have a single strap, but these are ones in which the woman is shown at a part-sideways angle, so it may have been a factor of the positioning. Some dresses have black straps and some have white. Some have interesting neck trims. Many have fanciful floating sashes at the waist or hips, much like one might see on angels or similar figures in other Gothic marginal illuminations. Sronkova also includes many of the primary (Biblical) illustrations from this book. And as I leafed through these, I found fully-dressed women in many of the same postures and angles as I saw on the bathhouse ladies. For instance, the figure of the left-hand lady in the strapless image is very close in form to that of Delilah shearing Samson's hair. Delilah is wearing a fitted dress with one of those extremely wide necklines that reveals the shoulders. If you take that same figure and eliminate the sleeves from the garment, but preserve the other lines, including the neckline, you have the figure of the bathhouse maiden. You can find similar parallels between other bathkeepers and other primary images. Sronkova shows two more-literal pictures of chemises from major illustrations from this book, both of the birth of Samson. Both show a woman in bed (possibly childbed). In both, the woman is covered up to just below the bust, but you can see a straight-across neckline and black shoulder straps. My guess, then, would be that for the bathkeeper drolleries, the illustrator was showing standard "beautiful women's figures," but changing their dress to echo flimsy chemises, often with decorations or sashes to add a fantasy element. That's just a guess, based on too little information. I'm sure somewhere there's a book about the Wenceslas Bible that analyzes these drolleries in context, and that would shed more light on their role in the pictures. But what I feel pretty secure about right now is that I wouldn't view these as realistic images of women working in bathhouses, or realistic undergarments of any sort. --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 02:28:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA01539 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 02:28:07 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA27234; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 01:41:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id BAA19663 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 01:40:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hpamgaaa.compuserve.com (ah-img-1.compuserve.com [149.174.217.154]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id BAA19652 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 01:40:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpamgaaa.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id DAA14699 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 03:39:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 03:39:24 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Unique Patterns To: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907090339_MC2-7C65-AEE5@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id CAA01539 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson Where is their web site ? Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 06:50:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA10044 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 06:50:48 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA11942; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 06:02:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id GAA25072 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 06:01:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id GAA25066 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 06:01:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion (209-122-196-150.s150.tnt5.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com [209.122.196.150]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with SMTP id IAA06963 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:01:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000501beca03$ddffe400$96c47ad1@pavilion> From: "Andrea Gideon" To: "H-Costume" Subject: H-COST: slightly OT Queen Margot Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:09:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" I caught Queen Margot last night while fliping channels during a late night baby feeding. I set the VCR to tape the rest, however when I watched it this morning I realized it was longer than my tape. Could someone tell me how it ends? I got to the part after Henri returns to Navarre and he sends her lover back to get Margot. ANdrea _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 09:19:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA12637 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:19:48 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27828; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:32:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA16177 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:31:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from april.dnaco.net (april.dnaco.net [207.238.206.9]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA16162 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:31:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kirk.dnaco.net (aleed@kirk.dnaco.net [207.238.206.3]) by april.dnaco.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA01609 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (aleed@localhost) by kirk.dnaco.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA06832 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:31:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: kirk.dnaco.net: aleed owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:31:19 -0400 (EDT) From: aleed To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: pleating again :) In-Reply-To: <003a01bec884$865f8dc0$ac350418@c59303-a.mckiny1.tx.home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: aleed >From the pictures I've seen, most english Tudor dresses used box pleats. Drea On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Franchesca Havas wrote: > > -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" > > I have a question. It has come up that box pleats and cartridge pleats come > from different areas of Europe and time periods. Which one was in use for > Henry the VIII? > > Sincerely, > F. Havas > Dallas, Texas > motto: Numquam scribae ridente fide > > -----Original Message----- > From: DRGurley@aol.com > To: h-costume@indra.com > Date: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 9:09 AM > Subject: Re: H-COST: Finished Outfit!!! > > > : > :-Poster: DRGurley@aol.com > : > :Could someone describe cartridge pleating or cite a source for instruction? > :I'm going to be working on an Elizabethan skirt and it sounds like that may > :be the best way to handle the upholstery material I've chosen. > : > :Thanks! > :Dani G > : _________________________________________________________________ > : To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > : with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > : > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 09:40:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13026 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:40:21 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA00235; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:52:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA21238 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:51:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from RBAD59.RBACRXCLU.BAS.ROCHE.COM (gw.bas.roche.com [196.3.50.241]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA21202 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:51:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com (rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com [145.245.211.139]) by Roche.COM (PMDF V5.2-31 #33472) with ESMTP id <01JDD8VR0LGG9DGG72@Roche.COM> for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:50:13 +0200 Received: by rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <3KY2PV5B>; Fri, 09 Jul 1999 16:50:10 +0200 Content-return: allowed Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 16:49:43 +0200 From: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Subject: RE: H-COST: slightly OT Queen Margot To: "'h-costume@indra.com'" Message-id: <431EB483DFB4D111A2D50000F843C5C401009E13@RWEMSEM2> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Are you referring to the French film "La Reine Margot" if so then I have this on video and consequently can tell you what happened. Right when Margot's lover "La Mole" returns for her with his friend they are waiting in the street whilst the page has gone to the palace to fetch Margot and her maid. However the Duc d'Guis arrived and with his men at arms fights the two would be rescuers. La Mole is in fact shot in both knees and they are dragged off. Margot then arrives and finds that their attempts have been in vain. By this time the rather unfortunate Charles who read too much of the book for Henri is dying. He shows is mother the book and points out that he read too much she of course is distaught having effectively polished off one of her offspring. Charles is now sweating blood. Margot goes to him to beg for the life of her lover. Charles askes what the time is, naturally it is too late. On the scaffold La Mole is almost blind and asks his friend if Margot is there, he lies and says that she is. The news is broken to the court that Charles is dead and that Henri (his brother) is now king, while this proceeds Margot makes her escape to the excutioner that patched up La Mole after his fight. There she find the body and severed head of her lover. She asked the executioner to embalm the head and to bury the body with her jewels. A coach is waiting outside into which she gets in with La Moles head, tastefully covered, her maid stays behind. She is then shown driving off to meet her husband. The end Hope that does. RAchel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 09:48:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13126 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:48:22 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01401; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:01:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA23686 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:00:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA23503 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:59:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.74 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 07:59:24 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: Unique Patterns Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:07:20 -0400 Message-ID: <000101beca1c$c4266c20$4a0bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000101bec964$348693a0$6a0bfdd0@sharp-9070-> Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" This company will provide perfectly customized patterns: http://www.uniquepatterns.com/index_two.html. The detailed measurements taken are far better than any other Web-based service I've seen, $39 for the initial sign-up, submitting measurements per their videotape instructions, and catalogue of current 200 patterns, $10-20 for each fully customized pattern. When her measurements change, there is a $5 charge to update the database. New patterns appear on the WebPages, or alternatively you can get a new catalogue, optional, from time to time for $15. The range of patterns for different life-style situations is comprehensive. Hope H. Dunlap > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Hope H. Dunlap > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 1:06 PM > To: M311@aol.com; h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Unique Patterns > > > > -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > > The cost to update your measurements for Unique Patterns is > only $5.00. Given the extraordinary accuracy of the > patterns, this might make it a viable option for your plus > size girl. I'd guess she would need a pattern update once > per year. To get a catalog update is $15, but there's no > requirement to get it. The $39 initial fee includes helping > to get your measurements and to get the 200-pattern > catalogue, and the new pattern updates are on the Website. > It's a lifetime membership, and your little girl will be > ready to sew herself in 3-4 years, so she can use it the > rest of her life. > > Hope H. Dunlap > > > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 10:40:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14035 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:40:31 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10279; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:53:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA05477 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:51:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA05446 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:51:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from c59303-a ([24.4.53.172]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990709155140.IDMR5136.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@c59303-a> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:51:40 -0700 Message-ID: <006101beca23$372e4d40$ac350418@c59303-a.mckiny1.tx.home.com> From: "Franchesca Havas" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: slightly OT Queen Margot Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:52:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" Was up last night too and caught it. Lover and lover's buddy die, beheading. They were accused of poisoning the King since his name was in the book his father wrote that Catherine had poisoned for Navarra. King dies as the duo is beheaded. Margo has her lover's head embalmed and takes it with her to Navarra. The end credits say that she grants Navarra a divorce but remains friends with him for the rest of his life. She outlives all her brothers and her husband. They give a bio of the next two kings of France with the youngest of the brothers being the most beloved of them all. A very sad movie, very bloody, beautiful colors and I wish I could wear those costumes!!!!! Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas motto: Numquam scribae ridente fide -----Original Message----- From: Andrea Gideon To: H-Costume Date: Friday, July 09, 1999 7:04 AM Subject: H-COST: slightly OT Queen Margot : :-Poster: "Andrea Gideon" : :I caught Queen Margot last night while fliping channels during a late night :baby feeding. I set the VCR to tape the rest, however when I watched it :this morning I realized it was longer than my tape. Could someone tell me :how it ends? I got to the part after Henri returns to Navarre and he sends :her lover back to get Margot. :ANdrea : : _________________________________________________________________ : To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com : with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME : _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 10:54:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14284 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:54:15 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11952; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:06:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA29667 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:25:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA29574 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:25:12 -0600 (MDT) From: Gaelscot@aol.com Received: from Gaelscot@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6FJVa12667 (7814) for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:23:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2e1b6ee9.24b76de4@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:23:16 EDT Subject: H-COST: Re: cotehardie fitting To: h-costume-digest@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com I dont think there's all that much info to go on. The people who believe that there is no fitted foundation garment seem to be able to make cotehardies just fine without them. I have been experimenting, assuming that I will make a wardrobe of cotehardies in the future (which seems to get farther off all the time) and it seems to me that the best plan would be to make an extremely fitted underkirtle or two, to take the stress off the main garments. I go back and forth between a full kirtle with sleeves, and something akin to the Bohemian stuff mentioned, with no sleeves (which would then need an underkirtle on top of THAT -- pretty stuffy). But I think that if someone wants to experiment with an undergarment, then she should! Try it out and let the rest of us know how it works -- we might be convinced. Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 12:24:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA15855 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:24:31 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24987; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:37:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA00414 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:35:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zeus.directcon.net (root@zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA00390 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:35:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r4p17.directcon.net [206.170.184.66]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA16103 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907091734.KAA16103@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: H-COST: Amazing fabric store discovery Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson >Also Fran, if you're redecorating you might want to go to Norman Bernie in >San Mateo. Or maybe it's Cliff Bernie. One is the owner and one is the >store name, I can never remember which is which! It's Norman Bernie. As I recall, they're only open on weekdays. They're a jobber, buying up odd lots of fabric, mostly home dec. I've seen everything from natural scrim to great brocades, day-glo plaid Herculon airplane seat cover fabric, to heavy upoulstery leather there. I've gotten good prices on short peices, too small to cover a chair, say, but big enough to make a pair of sleeves or a forepart. Nothing in the place is priced, you have to ask about everything, and I suspect that prices are open to negotiation. Don't expect to get a price break for buying 20 yards of something; most of their fabric is on huge rolls. If you want 300 yards of fuschia cotton, though, you can probably get a deal. Margo Anderson (who misses shopping in the Bay Area) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 13:43:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA17270 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:43:53 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06750; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:52:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA17041 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:51:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from deimos.worldonline.nl (deimos.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.136]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA16975 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:51:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from worldonline.nl (leda.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.135]) by deimos.worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA21630 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:51:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pc2 (vp181-35.worldonline.nl [195.241.181.35]) by worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA14363 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:51:05 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199907091851.UAA14363@worldonline.nl> From: "Henk 't Jong" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:52:17 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi all. Robin wrote: > This finally rang a bell for me, and I dug out my copy of Olga Sronkova's > "Gothic Woman's Fashion" (Artia: Prague, 1954, printed in Czechoslovakia, > no ISBN). The text of this book is rather suspect and suffers further in > translation, but the illustrations are great. > > More than this, Sronkova gives us no less than SIXTEEN more illustrations > of bathhouse attendants. They are all from the same manuscript as the one > just described -- the Bible of Wenceslas IV. Sronkova tells us this is an > unfinished illuminated Bible in German, belonging to the group of > manuscripts known as the Wenceslas manuscripts. It was made for Wenceslas > IV between 1390-1400, and it "shows an intimate knowledge of the > particular tastes of the king." It is in Vienna in the State Library, > Codex 2759-2764. > Ludmila Kybalova, Olga Herbenova and Milena Lamarova have some of these bathhouse ladies in theirs 'Das grosse Bilderlexikon der Mode, vom Altertum zur Gegenwart', also printed and published in Praha, in 1966 (of which I own a second edition from 1975). 3 of the shifts are visible here; two have sashes around the waist, the other is loose but fairly fitting. One is see-through. > and there's no evidence > that bathkeepers of this sort appear in any other sources Oh yes, there is! In the same book mentioned by me before, there is a page from a book called the 'Jenaer Kodex (1490-1500) in which 4 ladies in shifts exactly like the Prague bathhouse wenches (white, loose, heavily pleated, nearly see-through, a narrow decorated border along the upper end and straps of the same material, a narrow dark, one of the same material as the straps, tight belt around their waist) administer to two naked monks. This is supposed to be another Bohemian source, but I know nothing else about it. I'll have a look, though. So you see that a century later than Wenzels Bible there were still scantily dressed bathhouseladies around. I also seem to remember similar girls from ca 1500 bath scenes from Southern Germany (Augsburg, Nurnberg?). I'll try and find out more about this. > > My guess, then, would be that for the bathkeeper drolleries, the > illustrator was showing standard "beautiful women's figures," but changing > their dress to echo flimsy chemises, often with decorations or sashes to > add a fantasy element. I'm not so sure. It seems to me that practices of this sort were rather common in the German area (in summer?). They still are. Medieval people weren't shy about nakedness, they sometimes found it funny, but mostly didn't bother too much about showing their bodies. That is: if they belonged to the upper classes they were supposed not to show their bodies in public (young rich and influential people opposed this and invented the tight bliaut in the 12th and the cotte hardi in the 14th c). The clergy was, as usual, opposed to any nakedness, but only had influence over the older, more staid and 'square' part of society. So what else is new? > That's just a guess, based on too little information. I'm sure somewhere > there's a book about the Wenceslas Bible that analyzes these drolleries in > context, and that would shed more light on their role in the pictures. But > what I feel pretty secure about right now is that I wouldn't view these as > realistic images of women working in bathhouses, or realistic > undergarments of any sort. I think I disagree here, but I think this practice was rather regional. It might well have never been seen in the rest of Europe, but I've seen some very racy medieval bath house scenes with people, bathers and keepers, wearing no clothes at all. Henk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 15:14:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19018 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:14:37 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21319; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:23:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA05633 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:22:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (mta3.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.141]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA05612 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:22:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-68-116.irvn11.pacbell.net [206.170.68.116]) by mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18419 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3785F71B.FEFFF3D7@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 13:20:35 +0000 From: Dietmar Organization: Completely Disorganized X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04C-PBI-NC404 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Re: cotehardie fitting References: <2e1b6ee9.24b76de4@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Dietmar Greetings, Gail wrote: > But I think that if someone wants to experiment with an > undergarment, then she should! What if that someone is a 'he'? ;-) Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 16:04:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA19846 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:04:38 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28474; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:14:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA16097 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:13:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dgs.dgsys.com (robin@dgs.dgsys.com [204.97.64.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id PAA16067 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:13:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by dgs.dgsys.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA24864 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:13:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: dgs.dgsys.com: robin owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:13:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Robin Netherton To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants In-Reply-To: <199907091851.UAA14363@worldonline.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Robin Netherton On Fri, 9 Jul 1999, Henk 't Jong wrote: I wrote: > > My guess, then, would be that for the bathkeeper drolleries, the > > illustrator was showing standard "beautiful women's figures," but > changing > > their dress to echo flimsy chemises, often with decorations or sashes to > > add a fantasy element. Henk wrote: > I'm not so sure. It seems to me that practices of this sort were rather > common in the German area (in summer?). They still are. Medieval people > weren't shy about nakedness, they sometimes found it funny, but mostly > didn't bother too much about showing their bodies. That is: if they > belonged to the upper classes they were supposed not to show their bodies > in public (young rich and influential people opposed this and invented the > tight bliaut in the 12th and the cotte hardi in the 14th c). The clergy > was, as usual, opposed to any nakedness, but only had influence over the > older, more staid and 'square' part of society. So what else is new? > ... > ... I think this practice was rather regional. It > might well have never been seen in the rest of Europe, but I've seen some > very racy medieval bath house scenes with people, bathers and keepers, > wearing no clothes at all. I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I have absolutely no doubt about the existence of scantily-clad bathhouse ladies, very likely wearing some chemise-like garment, or even nothing at all. I agree wholeheartedly with you on that. There's plenty of evidence of the popularity of bathhouses! What I seriously doubt is that the shape of a woman's body in such a garment looked exactly like the figure of a fully dressed woman (uplifted breasts, etc.), which would be a logical conclusion only if you accept the depictions in the Wenceslas Bible as accurate depictions of bathkeepers. The fact that these images were marginal illustrations, with all the conventions usually associated with drolleries (and sexual overtones), makes me wary of these drawings as a literal source for how real bathhouse women looked in their flimsy clothes. Since the initial discussion was whether a particular image of a strapless bathhouse dress shown in this manuscript was actually a boned undergarment providing support to the figure -- and a source to prove that foundations garments were worn in the 14th century -- it's worth looking closely at the idea of whether this drawing is a reliable image of a bathkeeper's figure. I'd be inclined to assume it's simply a "sexy female form with bathkeeper imagery," no more realistic than another drollery that might be a "sexy female form with bird's wings." I'm especially wary of taking an image like this as evidence of a foundation garment given the lack of other evidence that such a garment existed at all. On the other hand, I'd be most happy to use the depictions of the buckets as realistic! --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 16:13:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20025 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:13:50 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00737; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:25:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA18148 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:23:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tn.home.com [24.2.7.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id PAA18067 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:23:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from home.com ([24.1.35.138]) by mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990709212317.SAY559.mail.rdc1.tn.home.com@home.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:23:17 -0700 Message-ID: <37866842.BB8F420@home.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 16:23:14 -0500 From: Kat & Kent X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Kat & Kent Okay, my two cents....young, virginal (eg never pregnant) women can look like the women in the pictures regardless of foundation garments. Having gone to Girl Scout camps from the time I was 9 until I was 17, I can vouch for this. Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 16:34:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20388 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:34:02 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03049; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:43:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA21659 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:41:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id PAA21538 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:41:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [209.63.113.187] (209-63-113-187.sea.jps.net [209.63.113.187]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28893 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907092141.OAA28893@smtp6.jps.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.0c (197) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 14:43:38 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: cotehardie fitting From: "R.L. Shep" To: h-costume@indra.com Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "R.L. Shep" Hear! Hear! ~!~ R.L.Shep http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks ---------- >From: Dietmar >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: H-COST: Re: cotehardie fitting >Date: Fri, Jul 9, 1999, 6:20 AM > > >-Poster: Dietmar > >Greetings, > >Gail wrote: > >> But I think that if someone wants to experiment with an >> undergarment, then she should! > >What if that someone is a 'he'? ;-) > >Regards, > >Dietmar > > >"Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; > over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 17:21:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA21183 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:21:52 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11022; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:32:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA01509 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:31:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dgs.dgsys.com (robin@dgs.dgsys.com [204.97.64.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA01484 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:30:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by dgs.dgsys.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA10058 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:30:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: dgs.dgsys.com: robin owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:30:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Robin Netherton To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants In-Reply-To: <199907072014.WAA20260@worldonline.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Robin Netherton Catching up after a busy week... On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Henk 't Jong wrote: > There's an added fact too. You'll have to realise that we are used to > making patterns on paper. Paper was rare and very expensive during almost > the whole 14th c and only used for writing on. The same goes for parchment > or vellum, which was even more expensive. Both were almost only available > in relatively small formats... > too small to make patterns on, if they had wanted or needed to, that is. > > Patterns on cloth or measuring older garments were probably done, but, what > the heck, these sewing artists knew what they were doing and, IMO, worked > almost intuitively with a real tailor's eye. Yes, yes, yes. Of interest: There are several images of tailor's shops in the extant manuscripts of the Tacuinum Sanitatus (late 1300s, Northern Italy, with fashions not too dissimilar from France). Bolts of fabric, garments in various stages of construction, needles, and shears are in evidence. No sign of a pattern, even where people are cutting out recognizable garment shapes (with visible armholes or neckholes) from unrolled fabric. No measuring tapes either, for that matter. But in an illumination from about a century later (Boccaccio's "Livre des cleres et Nobles Femmes, Bib. Nat. MS. Fr. 599 -- it's in the Medieval Woman Book of Days and probably one of the calendars somewhere), a woman tailor (possibly allegorical -- women were probably not tailors at this time) is shown cutting out a piece of white SOMETHING. It might be paper, but I'd guess it's cloth. Caption writers call this a pattern. Perhaps it is -- this would be about the time patterns or the ancestors of patterns might emerge. Maybe each customer would have an individual cloth pattern developed to his/her own shape, to be used for future garments? Maybe the tailor used a piece of linen to trace the shape of the pieces of an existing garment, and then to transfer that shape to new fabric to make another garment? That would be an easy way to use an existing garment as a guide for a new one. Maybe this is for the equivalent of a muslin mockup for fitting? Who knows? There's no fabric roll, just the shape lying on the table (with visible armhole and neckhole; my guess it's for a man's garment), and she seems to be trimming something off the bottom. But why would you cut a pattern that's already in an identifiable shape? Food for thought, but I wouldn't rely too closely on the illuminator's knowledge of tailor's techniques. I'd have to see a lot more examples of tailors at work, and compare them to see what features appear in many places. (Future research project, obviously.) I wrote: > > Fashion tends toward to extremes, so fitting became tighter and tighter > -- > > but that happened gradually, over decades. Then necklines began to inch > > wider and lower. If you take the columnar fitted dress of mid-century, > > with its relatively high jewel-neck, and cut that neckline progressively > > lower, you find that this releases pressure on the upper bosom, so the > > continuing pressure of the fabric on the lower bosom pushes the breasts > > higher. Henk wrote: > Actually: the courtly ladies in the Romance d'Alexandre (ms Bodley 264), > dated ca 1338, already have very low-necked dresses, which sometimes even > leave (part of) their shoulders bare. (For anyone who wants to see that, there's a good image from that manuscript on the jacket and as the frontispiece of _Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince._) These necklines are definitely very *wide,* but they're not deep enough in front to uncover the top half of the bosom. The necklines actually are drawn as slightly higher in the middle than on the sides! Definitely not the deep scoop you get later, when you see the S-curved spine and the pushed-up bosom. The breasts are held up, but more as a wide, gentle funnel shape, not as separate globes sticking out from a high ribcage, with the upper part of the breasts exposed. > > I would guess that the development of foundation garments helped make > > possible the regular use of patterns, and also the expansion of tailoring > > as a profession. Certainly by the 1500s, tailors could routinely work > > independently of their clients, from measurements only. > > A pretty interesting theory: I'll have to think this one over... I'm still working on it myself. So many things seem to fall into place together, and each step is necessary in order for us to reach, say, the situation in the late 1500s where it's considered routine for people in the English countryside to send their measurements to London tailors with clothing orders. No way I could make a fitted 14th century dress from measurements, because measurements can't account for angles, degree of "bulge" of bosom or a flexed muscle, density and mobility of body tissue, etc. Not a problem if all those things were forced into a standard shape and held there reliably and you could then measure the key points of that shape. Which would mean you could create a pattern that would be useful. With foundation garments, also, the degree of stretch and distortion in a piece of fabric wasn't an issue, as it is with the 14th-century fitted styles. Once you eliminate stretch from the process, patterns become a more logical innovation, because the shapes of the pieces will be less variable from one garment to another. Of course there's a lot more involved in the development of tailoring as a profession, but I think the ability to separate the actual process of garment-making from the client -- that is, the client no longer needs to be present for multiple fittings -- would be one of those vital pieces. I know you can't get standard sizes (a later development) without being able to rely on standard shapes for women, which are achieved through foundation garments. I suspect I'm not the only woman around who wears different bras for different styles or brands of clothes, because I know that Leslie Fay or Kasper or Chaus is cut in a certain way, and I have to make my shape match their slopers. I wrote: > > or it may have been a fuller garment like a houppelande. Either way, the > > dress on the inside would be doing all the hard work of molding and > > holding the figure. That dress would have been worn as an everyday basic > > garment, and subject to intensive daily wear and perspiration. Henk wrote: > The perspiration was mostly caught by the shift, but practice learns that > you'll have to wash you (under)cotte regularly in summer. This could be a > pointer in the direction that summer undercottes (or cottes) were of linen, > which keeps better in the laundry than wool does. But so far I have found > no real evidence for this. Have you already, Robin? :-) I'm guessing Henk is remembering a question I sent him some months ago. (If you answered me, Henk, I never got it, and I'd still love your opinion.) I've been wondering whether there's any solid evidence for linen being worn as the primary (visible) fabric of a gown or other body garment -- we know it was used for undergarments (chemises) and linings of body garments, but I haven't found as much evidence for it being used as the main fabric, despite common assumptions to the contrary. So I'm on the prowl. Given the ready availability of wool and the small wardrobes of most people in the 14th century, I doubt many people would go to the expense of making a linen dress just for those rare hot summer days. I'm not even so sure linen would make that much of a difference in European temperatures -- I experimented with wearing identical dresses in cotton, linen, and wool in 90-degree heat last summer (far worse than is usually seen in Europe), and the wool was actually the most comfortable! Line it with linen and you get the best of all worlds. As to the issue of laundry survival, even in summer I find that lightweight woolen fitted dresses don't need washing that often, though the linen chemises do. So I don't think the issue of suffering in the laundry would necessarily be enough to cause a shift to linen for the summer. But I wouldn't use fancy fabric (e.g. silk brocade) on a fitted underdress, because it would suffer constant wear, physical stress, and some perspiration. Fancy fabrics are OK for the overgarments, which were not subject to the same stresses and sweat, and were probably not washed at all, just brushed. I've found some indications that linen was worn routinely for summer garments in sunny Italy, and I wonder if the paler palette of Italian clothing seen in paintings reflects an increased use of linen, which does not hold deep colors like wool does. This is another topic for another year -- but I'll happily collect references to linen use in Northern and Western Europe if anyone runs across anything. --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 21:26:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA25042 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:26:47 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07294; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:36:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA05521 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:35:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sd.znet.com (sd.znet.com [207.167.64.5]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA05515 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:35:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [207.167.66.103] (sdts11-103.znet.net [207.167.66.103]) by sd.znet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/jjb-sd) with ESMTP id TAA18247 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199907090252.WAA20888@smtp.leading.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Julie Adams >But >what I feel pretty secure about right now is that I wouldn't view these as >realistic images of women working in bathhouses, or realistic >undergarments of any sort. > >--Robin Which would be fine, except that the flimsy chemise bathhouse costume is quite well-documented in the late 15th/early 16th c. Germany, and is the same identical garment as shown in other Wenceslas bible pictures. And the bucket and brush remain in use as well. I've also seen that spaggetti strapped garment as doll clothes and children's shifts. I guess I don't feel confident that I can brush off that strapless gown as unreal. Julie Adams _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 22:17:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA25854 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:17:38 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12948; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:28:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA16641 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:27:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dgs.dgsys.com (robin@dgs.dgsys.com [204.97.64.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id VAA16627 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:27:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by dgs.dgsys.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA04001 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:27:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: dgs.dgsys.com: robin owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:27:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Robin Netherton To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Robin Netherton I wrote: > >But > >what I feel pretty secure about right now is that I wouldn't view these as > >realistic images of women working in bathhouses, or realistic > >undergarments of any sort. Julie responded: > Which would be fine, except that the flimsy chemise bathhouse costume is > quite well-documented in the late 15th/early 16th c. Germany, and is the > same identical garment as shown in other Wenceslas bible pictures. And the > bucket and brush remain in use as well. I've also seen that spaggetti > strapped garment as doll clothes and children's shifts. I guess I don't > feel confident that I can brush off that strapless gown as unreal. Boy, I was clear as mud there. That's what I get for writing long posts after midnight. It would have helped if I had said "foundation garments" rather than "undergarments." The issue originally under discussion was whether the strapless costume was a structured foundation undergarment. Some people had noted the uplifted figures of the women and suggested this provided evidence that the garment shown had internal support, like a corset -- and that it was therefore *not* a flimsy chemise. This is what I was responding to (from your earlier post, Julie): > I think these are the support garments in question. I've seen some with > spagetti straps, but clearly these don't have any. And anyone who'se ever > made a victorian corset cut like this, and tried it on before the bones are > in, will tell you that without something stiff, the top will roll right > over. I don't see how these garments would work without some stiffening. I was trying to say that given the context of the manuscript, I didn't see the uplifted figures of the women as a realistic portrayal of how women's figures looked in real bathhouse costume,* and that while the strapless dresses might seem in this one image like boned support undergarments, I didn't feel comfortable accepting these images as evidence of such garments, because of the nature and purpose of the representation and the lack of other evidence of foundation garments from this period. I *do* most certainly agree that the images are meant to represent the well-documented "flimsy chemise bathhouse costume" -- which is why I pointed out the other more realistic portrayals of such a garment in the major illustrations (the two childbed scenes). Absolutely no argument that bathkeepers wore filmy spaghetti-strapped chemisey things; I didn't think there was any disagreement about that, and I didn't mean to imply that I was questioning that. I was questioning the interpretation of these dresses as boned foundation undergarments. I would happily use the bucket and scrub brush (or whatever that thing is) as realistic. I'm less secure about some other elements, such as the floating sashes that appear on some of the Wenceslas Bible bathkeepers in marginals that use other elements of iconographic presentation. These are the same sort of knotted sashes routinely used in certain saints' images, and other parts of these marginals echo other features of saints' images. The sash may have the same sort of symbolic function in the picture as, say, the bird-borne banners overhead -- as a joke to present the bathkeepers as though they were saints. (And in case I wasn't clear again, I'm not saying this means they never wore sashes. I'm saying that real sashes probably didn't have the improbable proportions or aerodynamic capabilities shown in these pictures. So the floating sashes may be a idealized/exaggerated version of a more ordinary sash that was actually worn with the more ordinary unsupported flimsy gown.) --Robin * Unless they're teenagers with perky breasts, as someone noted earlier. Good point. My research partner once did a lecture on some of the Bottacelli Venus costumes, and noted that they could only work on perky-bosomed teens. Maybe some bathkeepers *did* look that way, but it wouldn't be because they were wearing boned bodices! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 23:13:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA26842 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:13:45 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18897; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:23:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA22085 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:22:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sd.znet.com (sd.znet.com [207.167.64.5]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA22077 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:22:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [207.167.66.103] (sdts10-31.znet.net [207.167.66.31]) by sd.znet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/jjb-sd) with ESMTP id VAA29990 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Julie Adams Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Julie Adams > . I was questioning the interpretation of these >dresses as boned foundation undergarments. Whether they were worn underneath another garment is certainly questionable, but having done a fair amount of corsetry, I can attest that no matter how perky those young ladies bosoms are, a strapless garment like that will not stay up without some kind of stiffening. One bend-over and the top will roll right over without some kind of boning. >I would happily use the bucket and scrub brush (or whatever that thing is) >as realistic. I'm less secure about some other elements, such as the >floating sashes that appear on some of the Wenceslas Bible bathkeepers in >marginals that use other elements of iconographic presentation. These are >the same sort of knotted sashes routinely used in certain saints' images, The knotted sashes are quite often seen up through the 16th c in Germany/Bohemia on all classes of people. In my thinking, I've seen the scrub brushes, the sashes, the gowns, the spagetti strapped garments on both bathhouse babes and as undergarments, the buckets, etc. (Costuming of the Holy Roman Empire is my focus). Given that the other costume and prop elements are fairly true to form, I feel I have no basis for discounting the strapless gowns. And given that their spagetti-strapped counterparts are worn as undergarments, I think that it would be hard for me to say for sure that the strapless garments would not be worn that way as well (for Bohemian/German costumes). Basically there is no clear proof, but enough evidence and collaborative information that the hypothesis could go either way in my mind. I also made quite a few cotehardies in the German style when I was young and high busted and I still did not have quite the same lift as the women in these and other similar depictions. It turns out that the higher your bust is naturally, the less lift you get from the garment pushing around your torso. And because the neckline is flat across the shoulders, there is little to achieve that lift. If the center of your bust is higher than your armpit, the flat neckline does not uplift. I can only say from experience (of days LONG past) that even naturally perky looks nothing like those women. I also believe that women then had much more musculature than your average woman today (but then they probably walked and lifted and worked harder physically than most of us do today). I know that when I'm working out a lot my bust goes up several inches compared to when I'm out of shape. When I was young and high busted and made those cotehardies, I was doing SCA armored fighting and swimming regularly, so I was roughly the same physical shape as I see in many of the nudes. *sigh* Not anymore :-) Julie Adams _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 9 23:42:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA27317 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:42:54 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21199; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:53:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA25428 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:52:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tn.home.com [24.2.7.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA25421 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:51:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from home.com ([24.1.35.138]) by mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990710045157.DAWN559.mail.rdc1.tn.home.com@home.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:51:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3786D16B.E873BD85@home.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 23:51:55 -0500 From: Kat & Kent X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Kat & Kent First...when I was younger and didn't need so much support I wore strapless, tight outfits with no problem and no rolling. It's certainly easy to do if there is a casing and a ribbon (perhaps tied in back or not shown in the drawing?). Second, I wear cotehardies with no boning or corset. I've made them out of flannel, corduroy and cotton fabrics. All from the same pattern. No problem with support and I'm currently a 38 DD. It may have something to do with the fact that I always fully line my cotehardies (down to the hips). I don't know...but I do know that it's possible to make a fully supportive cotehardie for a large busted woman without using supportive undergarments nor boning regardless of whether the cotehardie is side-laced, back-laced or front-laced. Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 10 00:41:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA28242 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:41:18 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26023; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:51:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id XAA01112 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:50:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dgs.dgsys.com (robin@dgs.dgsys.com [204.97.64.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id XAA01099 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:50:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by dgs.dgsys.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA27494 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 01:49:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: dgs.dgsys.com: robin owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 01:49:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Robin Netherton To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Bohemian Bath Attendants In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Robin Netherton On Fri, 9 Jul 1999, Julie Adams wrote: > > . I was questioning the interpretation of these > >dresses as boned foundation undergarments. > > Whether they were worn underneath another garment is certainly > questionable, but having done a fair amount of corsetry, I can attest that > no matter how perky those young ladies bosoms are, a strapless garment like > that will not stay up without some kind of stiffening. One bend-over and > the top will roll right over without some kind of boning. > ... > Given that the other costume and prop > elements are fairly true to form, I feel I have no basis for discounting > the strapless gowns. And given that their spagetti-strapped counterparts > are worn as undergarments, I think that it would be hard for me to say for > sure that the strapless garments would not be worn that way as well (for > Bohemian/German costumes). So, our best guesses differ. That may be just a question of what areas we're strongest in and what we find easier to explain based on our own experience. Differing viewpoints make for healthy exploration and discussion. If I have to choose an inconsistency, I personally find it easier to assume that this single picture shows an idealized uplifted female figure rather than assuming that boning existed in this garment when there's no evidence for such use elsewhere in the period. But I don't normally work with boning, while I do feel familiar with 14th-century painting conventions and iconography, so this is the explanation that works for me most readily. I don't have a strong feeling about "perkiness" as an explanation for these women's uplift; someone else suggested that idea, and I am willing to entertain it as a possibility, as I've heard that concept presented persuasively in another context. For my part, though, perky doesn't enter into it: I simply don't think these women would have looked that uplifted in life. I think they are drawn here this way because it was the convention to use that silhouette for attractive females, regardless of how or whether they are dressed. Given how many nudes of this time are shown as though they are molded by clothing, I know there's precedent for drawing attractive woman in a certain way. In this period, it's rarer to see a woman who is being presented as attractive shown with a natural (un-molded) figure, regardless of what she's wearing or not wearing. (You are more likely to see a natural figure in things like medical illustrations and other cases in which the woman is not being shown as an object of desire.) Did a strapless style exist? I haven't expressed an opinion on that because I don't have a strong feeling about it. Again, if I have to choose an inconsistency, I would sooner guess that the artist was using a set model figure and simply eliminating the sleeves (see my earlier discussion comparing this image to the fully dressed women in the same manuscript). Or that he just forgot to show the straps. His addition of straps in side-view drawings is inconsistent in other images. More important, of the 17 bathkeeper images I have on hand, only this one lacks both straps. Did a strapless style exist? Maybe; I don't have enough information to guess. Was it common or routine? Based on this, probably not. > Basically there is no clear proof, but enough > evidence and collaborative information that the hypothesis could go either > way in my mind. I may be more conservative than other people when it comes to evidence. I'm always nervous about relying a single image or a single manuscript. I do grant you that the presence of realistic details elsewhere in this image is important, but it's still internal evidence. The evidence and corroborative information I'd want to find in this case would be additional images of strapless dresses. If there are others in this manuscript, that would be good. If there are others in other manuscripts from this time and place, that would be much better. If those others showed women in a selected range of occupations or settings (e.g. not just bathkeepers) that would be great -- and would make for a really strong research article. I haven't gone looking for strapless gowns (heck, never thought about them till a day or two ago) so I have no idea if that evidence exists. But that's what I'd look for. The single image is, for me, only the starting place for the search. Or did you mean there is evidence and corroborative information for a boned bodice at this time? If so, please share! I have yet to see any. > >I would happily use the bucket and scrub brush (or whatever that thing is) > >as realistic. I'm less secure about some other elements, such as the > >floating sashes that appear on some of the Wenceslas Bible bathkeepers in > >marginals that use other elements of iconographic presentation. These are > >the same sort of knotted sashes routinely used in certain saints' images, > > The knotted sashes are quite often seen up through the 16th c in > Germany/Bohemia on all classes of people.... Of course. My point was about the presentation of those sashes, not their existence. Which is why I wrote this as well: > (...I'm not saying this means they never wore sashes. I'm saying that > real sashes probably didn't have the improbable proportions or > aerodynamic capabilities shown in these pictures. So the floating sashes > may be a idealized/exaggerated version of a more ordinary sash that was > actually worn with the more ordinary unsupported flimsy gown.) The knot is a common one (I've always tied my bathrobe that way, long before I started costuming!). But the sash and that particular knot do have iconographical significance in certain contexts, which is worth recognizing when there are other iconographical devices being used in an illustration. > I also made quite a few cotehardies in the German style when I was young > and high busted and I still did not have quite the same lift as the women > in these and other similar depictions. It turns out that the higher your > bust is naturally, the less lift you get from the garment pushing around > your torso. And because the neckline is flat across the shoulders, there > is little to achieve that lift. If the center of your bust is higher than > your armpit, the flat neckline does not uplift. I can only say from > experience (of days LONG past) that even naturally perky looks nothing like > those women. >From that description, our methods are probably not the same (I do a lot with the angle of fabric over the shoulders), and I don't know what you mean by German style specifically, so I certainly won't question your conclusions there. But our experience differs. My first fitted dresses were made on an A cup (me) and gave me cleavage I'd never had before. Over the course of the years I grew to a G cup (I'm not overweight, I just have strange hormones and two kids), and I've worked on a lot of other people, so I've played with the full range. But I'm still running into new puzzles and new figure types, so I don't know what my method would have done with your figure, and I don't know whether I've ever worked on someone particularly high-busted as you describe. Something to watch for... I do agree that the degree of prominence of the bust shown in these illustrations suggests a substantial enough bosom that it needs some support to sit that high, but I also find I can get that profile from the dress, without foundation garments. So that comes back to my thought that the bathhouse ladies are drawn conventionally, with the figures they would have if they were fully dressed. And it is well after midnight, so I have probably written something muddy again. I will withdraw from this conversation before I get more confusing (my deadlines have suffered while I have played on the list these past few days). --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 10 01:59:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA29582 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 01:59:47 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA01456; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 01:10:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id BAA08148 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 01:09:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id BAA08141 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 01:09:11 -0600 (MDT) From: MissMela@aol.com Received: from MissMela@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6IMFa05838 (7991) for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 03:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <84d41672.24b84b68@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 03:08:24 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: wings of a dove To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: MissMela@aol.com Fortuny was making "Fortuny Gowns" as early as 1906, so the dresses in Wings of the Dove were not anachronistic but very "current." The rest of the clothes were dead on for the artsy, avant-garde crowd, the crowd that actually bought and wore Paul Poiret dresses. Many of the gowns were actual vintage clothing (their use in film, an entire different topic)! There are several costume books that show this type of clothing, but usually they are limited to one example per book. Mela _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 10 05:01:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA31348 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 05:00:59 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA11381; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 04:10:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id EAA26130 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 04:09:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id EAA26057 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 04:09:22 -0600 (MDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6FLa018547 (8023) for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 06:08:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 06:08:40 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Chinese ball buttons To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AnnBWass@aol.com This is to the person that I promised to send the Chinese ball button directions to: I had been saving the message with your address so I could send you the directions and must have deleted it in a moment of forgetfulness. If you are still in need of the directions, please respond to me again privately, and I promise to get them to you promptly. Ann Wass annbwass@aol.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 10 07:16:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA00696 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 07:16:47 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA16320; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 06:26:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id GAA19956 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 06:25:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.alltel.net (mail.alltel.net [166.102.165.30]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id GAA19936 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 06:25:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from r1979.stc.net (r-52.43.alltel.net [166.102.52.43]) by mail.alltel.net (8.9.3/ALLTEL Messaging Service) with ESMTP id HAA06634 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 07:25:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37873A47.4EB49945@alltel.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 08:19:19 -0400 From: "jmhr@alltel.net" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "h-costume@indra.com" Subject: H-COST: weaving book X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "jmhr@alltel.net" I was browsing eBay and came across this title - a good book for anyone interested in the history of weaving/dying: Rare C1817 Maufacturers Assistant-Wool&Cotn http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=127693201 Melissa _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 10 11:04:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04266 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:04:12 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05155; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:15:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA12482 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:14:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA12476 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 10:14:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.10 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:13:50 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: wings of a dove Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 12:19:51 -0400 Message-ID: <000201becaf0$118d7e80$7b0bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-Reply-To: <84d41672.24b84b68@aol.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" There is a good photo of a 1920 fortuny gown and jacket shown here: http://members.aol.com/ShanJens/index3.html Note how the hem of the gown spreads out on the floor around her feet like the foot of a champagne glass. See http://www.camrax.com/pages/search.htm and type in "fortuny" and click on the images request to get the biggest and best images of Fortuny gowns in one place. Search for "poiret" and "gallenga" here too. At http://www.costumes.org/pages/1910links.htm there are some additional links for Fortuny, particularly towards the bottom. Key words are Fortuny, Raymond Duncan (Isadora's brother, who made clothes in a similar manner) Dephos, Knossos. Hope H. Dunlap > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of MissMela@aol.com > Sent: Saturday, July 10, 1999 3:08 AM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: H-COST: wings of a dove > > > > -Poster: MissMela@aol.com > > Fortuny was making "Fortuny Gowns" as early as 1906, so the > dresses in Wings > of the Dove were not anachronistic but very "current." The > rest of the > clothes were dead on for the artsy, avant-garde crowd, the crowd that > actually bought and wore Paul Poiret dresses. Many of the > gowns were actual > vintage clothing (their use in film, an entire different > topic)! There are > several costume books that show this type of clothing, but > usually they are > limited to one example per book. Mela > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 10 15:41:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA08740 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 15:41:32 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02074; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 14:52:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA13925 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 14:51:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [209.48.224.31]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA13916 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 14:51:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lindo (p43.a8.du.radix.net [207.192.132.171]) by mail1.radix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA03892 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:51:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907102051.QAA03892@mail1.radix.net> X-Sender: lindo@saltmine.radix.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:50:20 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Kevin + Mara Riley Subject: Re: H-COST: Womens' period "plaid" info? In-Reply-To: <3c85c960.24b5745a@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Kevin + Mara Riley At 11:26 PM 07/07/1999 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: BarbMVD@aol.com > >The plaid (pronounced "plade", is and always has been a garment. > >If I may butt in, your discussion of the arisaid seems to cover a far greater >time period than would be appropriate, and brings the arisaid into the >Victorian era, far overextending its actual wear. Yes, maybe if the original poster had indicated the time period desired... I took it for granted that we're talking the mid-1700s, which is the period I'm currently involved in. The Victorian era with its romaticized nonsense certainly messed up the whole scene! The MacIan illustrations are the only ones I've found; some of his stuff is a bit far-fetched, but at least these two portrayals seem in keeping with what has been described elsewhere. http://www47.pair.com/lindo/Scotland.htm Kevin + Mara Riley Home Page http://www.radix.net/~lindo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 10 17:36:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA10547 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:36:46 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13852; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:49:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA25402 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:47:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from POP01 (pop01.ex-pressnet.com [208.193.112.8]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA25388 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:47:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from alt1 - 24.239.14.77 by ex-pressnet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:44:13 -0400 From: "Allison Thurman" To: Subject: H-COST: kilt patterns? Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:49:43 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2212 (4.71.2419.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Allison Thurman" ive been reading the recent thread on kilts and plaids with interest. my husband has been talking about my making him a kilt for a while, and im finally looking into it, but i have some questions. ive located a kilt pattern at folkwear patterns site, but ive heard that their patterns can be inconsistent, especially considering sizing. as hes a big guy the pattern must be large enough! is this true of folkwear patterns, and if so what are some other kilt pattern sources? also the pleating concerns me as ive never made a pleated garment before. would a pleating board (as sold at clothilde) be helpful, or will the pattern include directions for pleating? are the pleats sewn in or merely pressed and attached to a waistband? thanks in advance! allison _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 10 18:02:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA11004 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:02:57 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15777; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:14:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA27847 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:13:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web801.mail.yahoo.com (web801.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.61]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id RAA27833 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:13:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19990710231708.16435.rocketmail@web801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.133.176.27] by web801.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:17:08 PDT Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:17:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Sarah Toney Subject: Re: H-COST: kilt patterns? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Sarah Toney I have found that pleats are relatively easy if you are patient... don't rush, or they won't be consistent... but when you take the time, they come out wonderfully... I generally pin the pleats and then press them to make sure they look right before I do any sewing (especially when using an expensive fabric.) Sarah --- Allison Thurman wrote: > > -Poster: "Allison Thurman" > > ive been reading the recent thread on kilts and > plaids with interest. my > husband has been talking about my making him a kilt > for a while, and im > finally looking into it, but i have some questions. > > ive located a kilt pattern at folkwear patterns > site, but ive heard that > their patterns can be inconsistent, especially > considering sizing. as hes a > big guy the pattern must be large enough! is this > true of folkwear patterns, > and if so what are some other kilt pattern sources? > > also the pleating concerns me as ive never made a > pleated garment before. > would a pleating board (as sold at clothilde) be > helpful, or will the > pattern include directions for pleating? are the > pleats sewn in or merely > pressed and attached to a waistband? > > thanks in advance! > allison > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 10 18:15:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA11187 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:15:13 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16838; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:27:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA29378 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:26:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.nj.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.nj.home.com [24.3.128.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id RAA29323 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:25:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cc1010062a ([24.3.134.203]) by mail.rdc1.nj.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990710232553.RIXD6625.mail.rdc1.nj.home.com@cc1010062a> for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:25:53 -0700 Message-ID: <000b01becb2a$2cd0d0e0$cb860318@avnl1.nj.home.com> From: "Kyna Grannd" To: References: Subject: Re: H-COST: kilt patterns? Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:16:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Kyna Grannd" ----- Original Message ----- From: Allison Thurman To: Sent: Saturday, July 10, 1999 6:49 PM Subject: H-COST: kilt patterns? > > -Poster: "Allison Thurman" > > ive been reading the recent thread on kilts and plaids with interest. my > husband has been talking about my making him a kilt for a while, and im > finally looking into it, but i have some questions. > > ive located a kilt pattern at folkwear patterns site, but ive heard that > their patterns can be inconsistent, especially considering sizing. as hes a > big guy the pattern must be large enough! is this true of folkwear patterns, > and if so what are some other kilt pattern sources? First thing you should realize is that the Folkwear "pattern" isn't a pattern but rather instructions on how to measure, pleat and fit your plaid...so it will work with most any size. Another source here on the Internet that I'd found helpful was at: http://waveweb.innet.be/janb/kilt_making.html > > also the pleating concerns me as ive never made a pleated garment before. > would a pleating board (as sold at clothilde) be helpful, or will the > pattern include directions for pleating? are the pleats sewn in or merely > pressed and attached to a waistband? > Both Folkwear and this website give instructions on pleating. Since how you pleat involves the set of the plaid (distance between threads of color in the plaid design) I don't know that a pleating board will help. It's really not hard...sort of monotonous though :) The pleats will/should be sewing in and kilts are the one time where you hem the garment FIRST then pleat sew etc. You really want to make sure you buy real kilt making plaid...it will be WORSTED WOOL. This is a wool that holds pleating much better. If you paid less than $35/yard it isn't worsted wool. The bargain wool blends just don't look as nice. It won't be because of your sewing/pleating ability...but others won't know that. Honestly, the drape of the kilt was very disappointing with inferior wool. Hope this helps! ~Kyna Grannd Garb _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 10 18:23:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA11345 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:23:54 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17446; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:36:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA00406 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:34:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from discordia.io.com (discordia.io.com [199.170.88.100]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id RAA00390 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:34:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dragon (aus-as5-117.io.com [208.2.105.117]) by discordia.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14834 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:34:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199907102334.SAA14834@discordia.io.com> From: "Amanda Reeves" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: kilt patterns? and size Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:37:44 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Amanda Reeves" I was told at the last Ren Faire we went to that my husband's size kilt was 13 yards as opposed to the 9 yard tradition. How do you gauge? Thanks, Amanda (Texas) ---------- > From: Kyna Grannd > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: H-COST: kilt patterns? > Date: Saturday, July 10, 1999 6:16 PM > > > -Poster: "Kyna Grannd" > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Allison Thurman > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 10, 1999 6:49 PM > Subject: H-COST: kilt patterns? > > > > > > -Poster: "Allison Thurman" > > > > ive been reading the recent thread on kilts and plaids with interest. my > > husband has been talking about my making him a kilt for a while, and im > > finally looking into it, but i have some questions. > > > > ive located a kilt pattern at folkwear patterns site, but ive heard that > > their patterns can be inconsistent, especially considering sizing. as hes > a > > big guy the pattern must be large enough! is this true of folkwear > patterns, > > and if so what are some other kilt pattern sources? > > First thing you should realize is that the Folkwear "pattern" isn't a > pattern but rather instructions on how to measure, pleat and fit your > plaid...so it will work with most any size. > > Another source here on the Internet that I'd found helpful was at: > > http://waveweb.innet.be/janb/kilt_making.html > > > > > also the pleating concerns me as ive never made a pleated garment before. > > would a pleating board (as sold at clothilde) be helpful, or will the > > pattern include directions for pleating? are the pleats sewn in or merely > > pressed and attached to a waistband? > > > > Both Folkwear and this website give instructions on pleating. Since how you > pleat involves the set of the plaid (distance between threads of color in > the plaid design) I don't know that a pleating board will help. It's really > not hard...sort of monotonous though :) > > The pleats will/should be sewing in and kilts are the one time where you hem > the garment FIRST then pleat sew etc. You really want to make sure you buy > real kilt making plaid...it will be WORSTED WOOL. This is a wool that holds > pleating much better. If you paid less than $35/yard it isn't worsted wool. > The bargain wool blends just don't look as nice. It won't be because of your > sewing/pleating ability...but others won't know that. Honestly, the drape of > the kilt was very disappointing with inferior wool. > > Hope this helps! > > ~Kyna > Grannd Garb > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 10 18:46:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA11670 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:46:39 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19416; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:58:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA02817 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:57:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.nj.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.nj.home.com [24.3.128.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id RAA02809 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 17:57:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cc1010062a ([24.3.134.203]) by mail.rdc1.nj.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990710235719.RNPC6625.mail.rdc1.nj.home.com@cc1010062a> for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:57:19 -0700 Message-ID: <001e01becb2e$9124e140$cb860318@avnl1.nj.home.com> From: "Kyna Grannd" To: References: <199907102334.SAA14834@discordia.io.com> Subject: Re: H-COST: kilt patterns? and size Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:47:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Kyna Grannd" > > -Poster: "Amanda Reeves" > > I was told at the last Ren Faire we went to that my husband's size kilt was > 13 yards as opposed to the 9 yard tradition. > > How do you gauge? > My rule of thumb is for a little kilt use 8 yards of 27" wide material (4 yards of 54", you can hide the seam in the pleats very easily), for up to a 46" hip measurement. I add between 6 and 8 inches for every inch of hip measurement beyond 46". Hope this helps some more :) ~Kyna _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 10 20:50:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA13750 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:50:39 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02810; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:02:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA14091 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:00:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.netwiz.net (Mail.NetWiz.Net [208.136.106.6]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA14072 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:00:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from slave (BayArea56k524.NetWiz.Net [208.164.208.124]) by mail.netwiz.net (8.9.2/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA10421 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3787FA8D.5128@netwiz.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 18:59:41 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: wings of a dove References: <84d41672.24b84b68@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Susan Fatemi MissMela@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: MissMela@aol.com > > Fortuny was making "Fortuny Gowns" as early as 1906, so the dresses in Wings > of the Dove were not anachronistic but very "current." The rest of the Right. But it seems I saw (and can't remember where, now) some of his pre-1920 dresses and they looked more "dated". The dresses in the film looked more like they might have come from a period later than 1910. susan -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 10 22:04:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA14868 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 22:04:49 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08996; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 21:16:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA20848 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 21:14:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id VAA20842 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 21:14:43 -0600 (MDT) From: AnnoraK@aol.com Received: from AnnoraK@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6UNAa05643 (229) for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 23:13:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <419a9e22.24b965d8@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 23:13:28 EDT Subject: H-COST: Parasol/Umbrella covering help To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AnnoraK@aol.com I bought an early 20th C. parasol/umbrella the other day. It's one of the rather long-handled ones, about 4 feet from the tip to the handle-end. The frame is in great shape, all the hinges working, no bends or breaks. Unfortunately, its fabric has basically self-destructed -- there's not a complete panel left. :-( I want to recover it, and intend to just use it as an accessory piece from time to time, not as a working umbrella, tho the option to use it as a parasol would be nice. My questions are: What kind of fabric do I use for the new cover? The original appears to have been a green-and-pink silk brocade, which I am definitely NOT interested in duplicating. And since the old cover is fragile at best and does not have a whole section to use as a pattern, is there anything I need to be careful with when taking measurements for a new one? Thanx! Jen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 11 00:09:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA16842 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 00:09:19 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19398; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 23:19:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id XAA02837 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 23:18:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sm0101.promedia.net (root@sm0101.promedia.net [209.160.170.4]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id XAA02831 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 23:18:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from j9g8x8 (ppp-209-160-172-176.01.promedia.net [209.160.172.176]) by sm0101.promedia.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA25789 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 22:25:20 -0700 Message-ID: <001b01becb5c$d088ab40$b0aca0d1@j9g8x8> From: "Broneske" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Parasol/Umbrella covering help Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 22:18:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Broneske" A few years ago, I re-covered an old parasol frame, and it came out rather well. What I did was I threaded a piece of string through the holes at the end of the ribs and "opened" the parasol, adjusting the thread so that it was the shape I wanted. I then carefully took some paper and laid it over the bowed, invisible "triangle" that was created and traced it. What I came out with was a triangle with slightly bowed out sides. I then added a seam allowance, cut it out of fabric (I just used a white muslin and trimmed it with some pretty pink ribbons and lace - simple, easy and reflects the sun's rays) and sewed it together. I then placed it over the frame, checked to make sure that the seams lined up with the ribs and then sewed the points down at the holes in the ends of the ribs. Any small errors I covered with trim. If anyone is interested, I will put a picture of the finished parasol up on the web and will post the URL. I have another frame that I have been meaning to cover with a black silk, but (sigh*) haven't had the time or inclination to do it yet. ;) Joan Broneske _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 11 10:36:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA25894 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:36:33 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25179; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:48:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA05806 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:47:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA05779 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:46:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sue.computercrafters.com (pm3frd1-68-99.intrepid.net [206.102.68.99]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA24625 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:46:53 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990711114928.009645b0@intrepid.net> X-Sender: sshatto@intrepid.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:49:28 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Sue Shatto Subject: H-COST: Wild Wild West Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Sue Shatto I have been waiting almost 2 years for this movie because I sold them many costumes for it. I had a feeling, I was going to be disappointed when the leading lady said on the Today show that one of the reasons she took the part was because she was going to be dressed in period attire. She said she came out that first day in this lovely long dress and the director said "we need to see more boobs, shorten that dress!" She said she ran around in undergarments the whole time. Meanwhile, we all had been studying the pictures of the outfits and were having a contest to see who could pick oput an outfit first. What a disappointment! Cordially, Sue Shatto Sue@VictorianMillinery.com http://www.VictorianMillinery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 11 11:07:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA26388 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:07:36 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27396; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:20:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA08842 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:18:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id KAA08837 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:18:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mamabear from [207.136.50.240] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.402) with smtp for sender: id ; Sun, 11 Jul 99 11:18:37 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <001c01becbb8$c388dc60$0200a8c0@mamabear> From: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Wild Wild West Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:16:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: RO -Poster: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" Now, I wasn't dissapointed at all.....I rather enjoyed the costumes. They were not supposed to be 100% accurate they are supposed to be fun (which is what I thought they were). I know you worked hard on them to make them as period as you could and I can understand your dissapointment in seeing what they did to your hard work. But, the tv show and the movie were never supposed to be period they both were loosly based in period. In other words they were fantasy. So my two cents is that I enjoyed the outfits especially the women's clothing. Carol Ross -----Original Message----- From: Sue Shatto To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sunday, July 11, 1999 10:51 AM Subject: H-COST: Wild Wild West > >-Poster: Sue Shatto > > I have been waiting almost 2 years for this movie because I sold them many >costumes for it. I had a feeling, I was going to be disappointed when the >leading lady said on the Today show that one of the reasons she took the >part was because she was going to be dressed in period attire. She said >she came out that first day in this lovely long dress and the director said >"we need to see more boobs, shorten that dress!" She said she ran around >in undergarments the whole time. >Meanwhile, we all had been studying the pictures of the outfits and were >having a contest to see who could pick oput an outfit first. What a >disappointment! > > > > > >Cordially, > >Sue Shatto > >Sue@VictorianMillinery.com >http://www.VictorianMillinery.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 11 11:43:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA26997 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:43:50 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00607; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:56:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA12697 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:54:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web807.mail.yahoo.com (web807.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.67]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id KAA12686 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:54:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19990711165310.28905.rocketmail@web807.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.133.176.104] by web807.mail.yahoo.com; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:53:10 PDT Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 09:53:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Sarah Toney Subject: Re: H-COST: Wild Wild West To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: RO -Poster: Sarah Toney The movie was supposed to be "Victorian Gadget-tech". This "era" never really existed, so they can't really be "wrong"... (unless, of course, Jules Vernes' stories were true and I'm missing something. ;-) It is too bad that you are unhappy with the way your costumes were used... I think everything looks awesome! Sarah _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 11 15:47:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA30772 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:47:53 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24604; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:58:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA09293 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:57:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA09275 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:57:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sue.computercrafters.com (pm3frd1-68-69.intrepid.net [206.102.68.69]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA29218 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:57:02 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990711165937.00961490@intrepid.net> X-Sender: sshatto@intrepid.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:59:37 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Sue Shatto Subject: Re: H-COST: Wild Wild West In-Reply-To: <001c01becbb8$c388dc60$0200a8c0@mamabear> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Sue Shatto Carol, I might not have communicated the scenerio just exactly as I shuold have. These were not reproductions I had made, they were originals. I'm glad you enjoyed the movie, though. At 11:16 AM 7/11/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" > >Now, I wasn't dissapointed at all.....I rather enjoyed the costumes. They >were not supposed to be 100% accurate they are supposed to be fun (which is >what I thought they were). I know you worked hard on them to make them as >period as you could and I can understand your dissapointment in seeing what >they did to your hard work. But, the tv show and the movie were never >supposed to be period they both were loosly based in period. In other words >they were fantasy. So my two cents is that I enjoyed the outfits especially >the women's clothing. >Carol Ross >-----Original Message----- >From: Sue Shatto >To: h-costume@indra.com >Date: Sunday, July 11, 1999 10:51 AM >Subject: H-COST: Wild Wild West > > >> >>-Poster: Sue Shatto >> >> I have been waiting almost 2 years for this movie because I sold them many >>costumes for it. I had a feeling, I was going to be disappointed when the >>leading lady said on the Today show that one of the reasons she took the >>part was because she was going to be dressed in period attire. She said >>she came out that first day in this lovely long dress and the director said >>"we need to see more boobs, shorten that dress!" She said she ran around >>in undergarments the whole time. >>Meanwhile, we all had been studying the pictures of the outfits and were >>having a contest to see who could pick oput an outfit first. What a >>disappointment! >> >> >> >> >> >>Cordially, >> >>Sue Shatto >> >>Sue@VictorianMillinery.com >>http://www.VictorianMillinery.com >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com >> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > Cordially, Sue Shatto Sue@VictorianMillinery.com http://www.VictorianMillinery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 11 20:04:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02254 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 20:04:46 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA22761; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:16:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA06810 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:15:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA06773 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:14:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from msmclean (209-20-7-39.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.7.39]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA20794 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 21:14:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 21:14:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990711211317.3f772494@mail.interlog.com> X-Sender: msmclean@mail.interlog.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: "Marsha S. McLean" Subject: H-COST: h-costume, slightly ot, dolls for costuming Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Marsha S. McLean" I am looking for a source of heads for dolls, wood or porcelain. I want an animal head, not fussy what animal, tho there are some i wouldn't want. Does anyone know of a place tat sells these? I would settle for a human head the size of a lemon (same size for animal) with no hair, or Elizabethan-able hair. Thanks!! This is for a LLOOOONNNGGG dreamt of project. Marsha Let us be elegant or DIE _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 12 08:31:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA13441 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:31:42 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA18535; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:44:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA04449 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:42:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA04430 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:42:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.147 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 06:42:08 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: h-costume, slightly ot, dolls for costuming Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:49:40 -0400 Message-ID: <000101becc6d$705569e0$930bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990711211317.3f772494@mail.interlog.com> Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" IF you use the master search engine http://www.metacrawler.com, and type in your key words, "porcelain doll parts" and "dollmaking supplies" and "doll making" you'll find quite a few on-line sources. I understand that little animal sculptures of this kind are made for sale today-- the whole animal, not just the head, anyway--and that the wood used is poplar, and carved with a dremel tool. There is a female artist in the Germantown section of Philadelphia who makes wooden fantasy animals for sale, but I don't know her name or address. Hope H. Dunlap > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Marsha S. McLean > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 1999 9:15 PM > To: h-costume-digest@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: h-costume, slightly ot, dolls for costuming > > > > -Poster: "Marsha S. McLean" > > I am looking for a source of heads for dolls, wood or > porcelain. I want an > animal head, not fussy what animal, tho there are some i > wouldn't want. > Does anyone know of a place tat sells these? I would settle > for a human > head the size of a lemon (same size for animal) with no hair, or > Elizabethan-able hair. > > Thanks!! This is for a LLOOOONNNGGG dreamt of project. > > Marsha > > Let us be elegant or DIE > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 12 08:48:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA13626 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:48:13 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20641; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:00:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA07781 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:58:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from eliz@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA07772; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:58:40 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:58:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199907121358.HAA07772@indra.com> From: To: h-costume@indra.com Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: RO -Poster: This just in from Williamsburg: We have more details now about the "18th-Century Clothing: Revealing Fashions" conference and the Textile Art Studies program that follows it in January 2000. (This makes a long message.) Later this month [July] we will mail program brochures. Please encourage anyone who is interested to contact us. Program details and the registration form will be on the Colonial Williamsburg web site soon at www.history.org under "What's New" in the Williamsburg Institute's 2000 Calendar. Thank you for helping "spread the word" about these exciting programs. -Pat Hearn _________________________________ Williamsburg Institute and the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation present 18th-Century Clothing: Revealing Fashions January 9-11, 2000 Clothes tell us a lot about our 18th-century counterparts. They tell us what people considered beautiful, which fabrics were used and how technology affected cutting and sewing garments. Clothing also shows us that ideal body shape was as important then as it is now. Women, men and children enhanced the shape of their bodies with stays, hoops and tailoring details to achieve the ideal silhouette. Fabric was expensive, garments were scarce and clothing was carefully made and remade. Join Colonial Williamsburg staff and visiting experts to look closely at 18th-century clothing. This two-day symposium allows study of a new exhibition, Revealing Fashions (December 4, 1999 - September 4, 2000), which displays clothing in ways not usually seen in museums: inside out, open to show linings and construction or stretched flat to indicate the cutting plan. Speakers will share new research and fresh insights about techniques of cut and construction, clothing in period portraits, masterpieces of costume from British collections, children's garments and body shape and deportment. Participants will discover how elegant 18th-century clothing was hand-sewn and embellished with colorful brocading, printing, applied trims, needlework and quilting. Opportunities for special behind-the-scenes tours will be available. Program Highlights Study time in the Revealing Fashions exhibition and self-guided tours of Historic Area trade shops related to fashion and costume for early arrivals Sunday, January 9 Optional one-hour introductory tours of Colonial Williamsburg's Costume Design Center Sunday afternoon Special study opportunities for conference registrants in the Revealing Fashions exhibition and the DeWitt Wallace Gallery textile study area A presentation of clothing in the 18th-century style with commentary by Janea Whitacre, manager of Fashion Trades at Colonial Williamsburg, and reception welcoming registrants Sunday evening Monday, January 10 *Connoisseurship: The Art and Mystery of Clothing; with Linda Baumgarten, curator of textiles and costumes, Colonial Williamsburg *A short gown, an apron and a hat: English Dress in the 18th Century; with Clare Rose, independent researcher, Winchester, England *Clothing Then and Now: 18th-Century Styles on Modern Bodies; with Richard Hill, manager, Costume Design Center, Colonial Williamsburg *Dressed for the Wall: Costume in Colonial Portraits; with Claudia Brush Kidwell, curator of Costume Collection, National Museum of American History, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, D.C. Tuesday, January 11 *Costumes Close-Up: An Inside Look?; with Linda Baumgarten *Clues in the Cloth: Conservation of Historic Costume; with Loreen Finkelstein, conservator of textiles, Colonial Williamsburg *Slips and Sprigs: Clothing Children during the 18th Century; with Clare Rose *Short Gowns, Bedgowns and Jackets, 1750 - 1800: A Survey of Current Knowledge; with Claudia Kidwell and Sally Queen, Alexandria, Virginia Opportunity to meet speakers, ask questions and obtain autographs for speakers' books and Costume Close-Up, the new publication accompanying the exhibition. *The pleasure of your company is requested for dessert; An after-dinner dessert reception, featuring costumes created and modeled by conference registrants. Please submit costume descriptions in advance. Please do not model antique clothing. Registration Information Conference registration must be made in advance and must be accompanied by payment of the $225 registration fee and full payment of all optional program fees. The conference registration fee includes the opening reception, coffee breaks, a dessert reception, special study time in the Revealing Fashions exhibition and opportunities to examine textile study storage drawers in the DeWitt Wallace Gallery, conference presentations proposed in this program and a Patriot's Pass. The Patriot's Pass is good for one year and provides admission to all Colonial Williamsburg museums and exhibition buildings. For a conference brochure, registration materials and additional information, contact: Registrar, 18th-Century Clothing Williamsburg Institute Colonial Williamsburg Foundation Post Office Box 1776 Williamsburg, Virginia 23187-1776 Telephone (757) 220-7182, fax (757) 565-8630 or e-mail tengle@cwf.org Conference size is limited and registrations will be processed in the order received. You may register by mail or fax. We cannot accept registrations by telephone. Information will also be available at www.history.org under "What's New" in the Williamsburg Institute's 2000 Calendar. Lodging and Dining at Colonial Williamsburg The following special conference rates are available for "18th-Century Clothing" registrants. To make your room and dining reservations, please call (800) 261-9530, Monday through Friday, 9 a.m. until 5 p.m. Hotel rates for single or double occupancy, per night (rates do not include applicable taxes): Woodlands Guest Rooms $50 Woodlands Suites $60 Williamsburg Lodge - Main, East or South Wing $85 Williamsburg Lodge - Tazewell or West Wing $105 ______________________________________________ TEXTILE ART STUDIES AT COLONIAL WILLIAMSBURG January 12-15, 2000 The Williamsburg Institute presents the second Textile Art Studies at Colonial Williamsburg. This year a variety of needlework classes are complemented by costume workshops examining the intricacies of 18th-century clothing and accessories. Visiting experts join Colonial Williamsburg staff to offer exciting opportunities to acquire new skills and knowledge. For additional information about the related Williamsburg Institute conference, "18th-Century Clothing: Revealing Fashions," January 9-11, 2000 and the new exhibition "Revealing Fashions at the DeWitt Wallace Gallery" (December 4, 1999-September 4, 2000), contact the Williamsburg Institute Registrar (see information below). Behind the Scenes at Colonial Williamsburg's Textile Collection Wednesday, January 12, 2000 Tour A - 9-10:30 a.m. Tour B - 10:30 a.m.-Noon Linda Baumgarten and Kim Ivey, Colonial Williamsburg $15 Special opportunities to see examples of Colonial Williamsburg's textiles collections in the curators' flat storage facility. Viewing the entire collection would be impossible; however, the tour reveals the rich documentation and resources available for the study of 17th- and 18th-century quilts, coverlets and other extraordinary textiles. Groups are limited to 25 participants. Decorative Fringe I: Introducing the Finishing Touch for 18th-Century Apparel Wednesday, January 12, 2000 9 a.m.-Noon Rick Hill, Colonial Williamsburg $50 Rick Hill, manager of Colonial Williamsburg's Costume Design Center, leads this beginner's hands-on workshop that introduces a variety of decorative fringes used to enhance apparel during the colonial period. Using materials provided, participants learn how to make two types of fringe to complete in class or at home. Refreshments for a break are included. Class size is limited to 30 students. [Note: This repeats last year's popular class. See Decorative Fringe II below.] Ann Holewll Sampler Session I - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 Session II - Thursday, January 13, 2000 10 a.m.- 4 p.m. Joanne Harvey $125 Ann Holewll's 1699 sampler is an example of a late 17th-century polychrome sampler using multiple banded designs, including a verse and various randomly placed motifs. This important English sampler is one of a group of embroideries worked under the guidance of Juda or Judeth Hayle. Known examples in this group were worked between 1691 and 1710. A common design element is an embellished square containing the maker's initials. Many of these samplers also include the initials "IH" identifying the teacher. The verse on Ann Holewll's sampler reads, "Look well to what yov take in hand for larning is better then hovse or land when land is gone and money is spent then larning is most excelent.?" Colonial Williamsburg acquired this sampler in 1998 with funds contributed by Friends of the Textile Collection. This piece is worked with floss on a linen ground and uses a variety of stitches, such as cross, double running, satin and other accents. Refreshments for morning and afternoon breaks are provided. Lunch is on your own. Class size is limited to 35 students. Joanne Harvey is a well-known teacher and student of historical needlework. She has developed meticulous reproductions of several samplers in the Colonial Williamsburg collection, including those stitched by Mercy Hopkins (1800) and Elizabeth Cotton (1698). The Ann Holewll sampler is her most recent project in conjunction with Colonial Williamsburg. Joanne owns The Examplarery, Dearborn, Michigan. Constructing an 18th-Century Infant's Gown Wednesday, January 12, 2000 1:30-4:30 p.m. Clare Rose, Winchester, England $55 Participants learn how to construct a "slip" gown worn by infants and young children from about 1750 until 1790. It was ingeniously constructed from two large pieces of fabric that was pleated to shape and sleeves were added. Fashioned in printed linen, fine lawn or silk satin, such gowns were widely sold and must have been in the repertoire of every seamstress. Clare Rose provides for each student a master pattern she has drafted from surviving examples in British museum collections. Participants use the pattern to cut and assemble a tissue paper mockup and learn how to shape the bodice with tucks and pleats. Class discussion includes using variant constructions for different weights of fabric and the positioning of applied or quilted decoration. Bring scissors, a 12-inch ruler, needle and basting thread, sticky (Scotch) tape, a 12-inch piece of muslin for practice stitches (optional), and paper for taking notes. Refreshments for a break are provided. Class size is limited to 30 students. Clare Rose is an authority on children's clothing in the 18th century and author of _Children's Clothes since 1750_. Former curator of textiles at York Castle Museum, she is now an independent researcher and writer with a special interest in the history of children's clothes and 18th-century quilting in Britain. She is an experienced dressmaker and quilter who has taught many workshops in quilting techniques, including classes at Quilt Expo Europa. Feet of Ingenuity: Calceaology, An Old Science Session I - Wednesday, January 12, 2000 Session II - Friday, January 14, 2000 2-4:30 p.m. Al Saguto, Colonial Williamsburg $50 Master boot and shoemaker D. A. Saguto leads a workshop that blends a practical background explaining the architecture and anatomy of 18th-century shoes using archaeological examples and slides, and an overview of construction, styles, terminology and techniques being rediscovered from 18th-century textbooks about the trade. This is a special opportunity for those curious about fashionable shoes and for those interested in authenticity in reproducing colonial era footwear. Refreshments for a break are provided. Class size is limited to 20 students. Sarah Leonard's Wedding Pocket Wednesday, January 12, 2000 6-9:30 p.m. Joanne Harvey $75 Sarah Leonard of Warwick, Massachusetts, married David Mayo on December 15, 1786. Documentation accompanying this needlework indicates that Sarah spun and wove the foundation for her wedding pocket. She also spun and dyed the wool she used to do her embroidery. This wonderful pocket reflects the domestic form of crewel embroidery so prominent in the embellishment of garments and accessories during the 18th century. The beauty of this pocket is the simplicity of its meandering floral design. Its monochromatic blue color scheme is indicative of crewel embroideries in the Massachusetts area. The pocket measures 13 inches by 17 inches. This reproduction is worked on a linen ground using Appleton Crewel Wool. Stem stitch, New England laid stitch and running stitch are used. Class does not include dinner. Class size is limited to 35 students. Suit Coats behind the Seams: Studying Pattern and Materials Session I - Thursday, January 13, 2000 Session II - Friday, January 14, 2000 9:30 a.m.-Noon Florine Carr $55 This hands-on class introduces students to museum research techniques. Using two antique coats from Colonial Williamsburg-s collections, Florine Carr explains how men-s 18th-century suit coats were shaped and constructed. Students discover how museum staff study and catalogue antique clothing, how to analyze construction techniques and fabric thread counts and how to use basic microscopic analysis of materials. Each participant receives a magnifier-thread counter, white gloves for use in handling antique textiles and information to take home. No previous experience is required. Class size is limited to 20 students. Florine Carr is co-author with Linda Baumgarten and John Watson of _Costume Close-up_, a new book of clothing patterns from Colonial Williamsburg's collections. She is a textile specialist docent at the Bayou Bend Collection, Houston, Texas. Caring for Costume and Accessories Thursday, January 13, 2000 9:30 a.m.-4 p.m. Loreen Finkelstein, Colonial Williamsburg $100 Textile conservator Loreen Finkelstein discusses textile conservation treatments performed for the "Revealing Fashions" exhibition. The class includes a tour of the textile conservation laboratory emphasizing special conservation equipment and procedures. Participants explore causes of deterioration and methods and materials for use in proper storage and display. They learn about stitching techniques used for conservation of costumes. Textile conservation technician Olivia Eller explains and demonstrates procedures used in the dye laboratory to produce fabrics suitable for use in treatment. Each participant receives a packet of useful information with a reading list, supply list, synthetic dye recipes and stitch guide. Participants may bring historic costumes for discussion. Refreshments for breaks are provided. Lunch is on your own. Class size is limited to 20 students. Tasselmaking Workshop: Introducing Passementerie Thursday, January 13, 2000 9 a.m.-4 p.m. Upholstery Conservation Staff, Colonial Williamsburg $100 Upholstery conservator Leroy Graves and staff of the conservation laboratory lead participants in the step-by-step process of making a five-inch trimmed tassel. The tassel is fashioned after those made for the elegant circa 1770 drapery bed on display in the recently refurbished Peyton Randolph House chamber. Each participant can take home a tassel of his/her own making and an appreciation for the fine art of passementerie. Refreshments for a morning and afternoon break are provided. Lunch is on your own. Class size is limited to 15 students. Making a Gown in the 18th-Century Manner Thursday, January 13, 2000 Janea Whitacre and Doris Warren, Colonial Williamsburg 9 a.m.-4:30 p.m. $100 This workshop explores several methods of gown making as practiced by the mantua maker in the 18th century. Participants see the cuttings and fittings for a single gown, then stitch their way through the project. Bring a thimble and the desire to sew! The completed gown is the newest style from London, according to The Lady's Magazine of May 1775. The gown made by the class will be displayed at the Margaret Hunter Millinery Shop throughout the year 2000. Refreshments for morning and afternoon breaks are provided. Lunch is on your own. Class size is limited to 18 students. 18th-Century Pinball Thursday, January 13, 2000 6-9:30 p.m. Joanne Harvey $60 For centuries the common needle and pin have been regarded as precious commodities because of their scarcity. A slide presentation explores the wonderful array of needlework tools. Among these tools, a needlework box or waist-hung chatelaine usually included a pincushion. Participants fashion an 18th-century-style pinball using queen stitches. The pinball is worked in silk on 35-count cream linen and includes a ribbon to enhance the piece. Participants may order a handmade sterling silver pinball ring at an additional cost. Class does not include dinner. Class size is limited to 35 students. [Note: This repeats last year's popular class.] Coloring Needlework Yarns with 18th-Century Dyes Friday, January 14, 2000 9 a.m.-4:30 p.m. Max Hamrick, Colonial Williamsburg $100 This class explores the myths and realities of how and why cloth was colored in 18th-century Virginia. Participants have opportunities to prepare dyes for use, set up the dye kettles and color yarns suitable for 18th-century needlework projects using the prepared dyes. Max Hamrick, Colonial Williamsburg's weaving specialist and dyer, conducts this class in the Historic Area. Refreshments for a morning and afternoon break are provided. Lunch is on your own. Class size is limited to 15 students. Sew On and Sew Forth Friday, January 14, 2000 9 a.m.-Noon Brenda Rosseau, Colonial Williamsburg $50 Explore the variety of stitches practiced in the 18th-century guided by an expert from Colonial Williamsburg's Costume Design Center. Participants assemble a reference book of construction samples, including multiple seam types, finishing techniques, buttonholes and covered buttons. Refreshments for a break are provided. Class size is limited to 30 students. [Note: This repeats last year's popular class.] Decorative Fringe II: More Finishing Touches for 18th-Century Apparel 1:30-4:30 p.m. Rick Hill, Colonial Williamsburg $50 In response to many requests, Rick Hill leads an intermediate hands-on workshop focusing on the variety of trims used to ornament clothing. Using materials provided, participants learn to make two different types of fringe based on antique samples. Prerequisite: Decorative Fringe I (see above) and basic crochet skills. Refreshments for an afternoon break are provided. Class size is limited to 30 students. Keeping It Covered: Hats for Fashionable Women and Men Saturday, January 15, 2000 9 a.m.-Noon Frances M. Burroughs and Susan B. Hard, Colonial Williamsburg $50 Explore the design, construction and manufacture of fashionable hats of the second half of the 18th century - felt hats for men and silk hats for women. A slide presentation introduces a demonstration of blocking and decorating hats. Participants receive a list of sources and instructions for reproducing at home their own stylish 18th-century headwear. Refreshments are provided for a break. Class size is limited to 30 students. Introduction to Wigmaking: Weaving Hair on a Tress Loom Session I - 9-Noon, Saturday, January 15, 2000 Session II - 2-5 p.m., Saturday, January 15, 2000 Betty Kelly and Regina Blizzard, Colonial Williamburg $50 A wig was a basic part of men's fashion in the 18th century and making a wig was a long and involved process. The most time-consuming aspect was wefting the hair or weaving it so that lengths could be stitched onto the caul. This class teaches the basic hand skills and techniques needed to weave on a tress loom the hairs principally used in 18th-century wigmaking: yak hair, horse hair and human hair. Classes are limited to 8 students. For All Classes Participants should bring personal embroidery aids, such as scissors, thimbles and battery-powered lights and magnifiers if desired. All levels of expertise are welcomed. REGISTRATION INFORMATION For a program brochure, registration materials and additional information, contact: Registrar, Textile Art Studies Williamsburg Institute Colonial Williamsburg Foundation P O Box 1776 Williamsburg VA 23187-1776 Telephone (757) 220-7182, fax (757) 565-8630 or e-mail tengle@cwf.org. Information will also be available at www.history.org under "What's New" in the Williamsburg Institute's 2000 Calendar. LODGING AND DINING AT COLONIAL WILLIAMSBURG The following special conference rates are available for Textile Art Studies registrants. To make your room and dining reservations, please call (800) 261-9530, Monday through Friday, 9:00 a.m. until 5:00 p.m. Hotel rates for single or double occupancy, per night: (rates do not include applicable taxes) Woodlands Guest Rooms $50 Woodlands Suites $60 Williamsburg Lodge - Main, East or South Wing $85 Williamsburg Lodge - Tazewell or West Wing $105 _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 12 14:02:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19204 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:02:16 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17264; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:13:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA23013 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:11:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp1-alterdial.uu.net (smtp1-alterdial.uu.net [192.48.96.19]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA22984 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:11:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jwilbur1 by smtp1-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: 119.pcpool89.corp.us.uu.net [153.39.89.119]) id QQgxou20862 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:11:41 GMT Message-Id: From: "Jessica Wilbur" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:15:15 -0400 Subject: H-COST: Question on Ashelford Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" Hello, I just received my copy of Jane Ashelford's _Visual History of Costume: 16th Century_. As I was looking through it yesterday, I noticed Holbein's sketch of Anne Boleyn, which is thought to have been done while she was pregnant. It's the one where she's wearing a linen cap which has a strap or tie under her chin. Well, the caption next to it said "An unknown lady" with the date (which I've now forgotten) and attributed to Holbein. I'm confused as to why she would note it this way, since Holbein wrote on the sketch, "Anna Bollein Queen". The description in the caption matches the sketch, so it's not like the picture got switched during layout of the book. And elsewhere in the book, Ashelford makes reference to "the unknown lady in plate 24". I can't imagine why this would be. Holbein labelled many of his sketches with the subjects' names, and he could hardly have been mistaken about the identity of a sketch of the queen. So can anyone think of a reason as to why this sketch would be labelled as "an unknown lady"? Thanks, --Jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 12 15:45:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20847 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:45:32 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03863; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:57:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA23352 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:56:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dgs.dgsys.com (robin@dgs.dgsys.com [204.97.64.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA23269 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:56:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by dgs.dgsys.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA05587 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:55:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: dgs.dgsys.com: robin owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:55:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Robin Netherton To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Question on Ashelford In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Robin Netherton On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Jessica Wilbur wrote: > ... I noticed Holbein's sketch of Anne Boleyn, which is thought to have > been done while she was pregnant. It's the one where she's wearing a > linen cap which has a strap or tie under her chin. Well, the caption > next to it said "An unknown lady" with the date (which I've now > forgotten) and attributed to Holbein. I'm confused as to why she would > note it this way, since Holbein wrote on the sketch, "Anna Bollein > Queen". The description in the caption matches the sketch, so it's not > like the picture got switched during layout of the book. And elsewhere > in the book, Ashelford makes reference to "the unknown lady in plate > 24". I can't imagine why this would be. Holbein labelled many of his > sketches with the subjects' names, and he could hardly have been > mistaken about the identity of a sketch of the queen. > > So can anyone think of a reason as to why this sketch would be labelled > as "an unknown lady"? >From _Holbein and the Court of Henry VIII_, a nice little exhibit catalog published by the Queen's Gallery, Buckingham Palace, 1978: "It is most unlikely that the instcription identifies the sitter correctly. Probably the most authentic portrait of Anne Boleyn is that in the National Portrait Gallery, which is unconnected with this drawing. The drawing by Holbein now in the British Museum is no longer thought to represent her, and the inscription on that drawing is certainly not contemporary." In other words, there's evidence that the inscription was added later, and wrongly. I do not know whether that means that other inscriptions were also added after Holbein's death. That would make sense, though. The drawings themselves were collected from Holbein's effects after he died suddenly from the plague in 1543. They were apparently made into a book for King Edward VI and later given away or sold; the first definitive mention of the book is in a personal inventory of 1590. The Queen's Gallery catalog lists a wondrously complex chain of ownership as the book passed through many people's hands, through gift and purchase, returning to the royal family and leaving it again once or twice more before coming back to the Crown for good by 1675. On the basis of some heraldic drawings on the back of the page (the book continues), there have been two possible identifications suggested for this lady: Margaret, Lady Lee, the sister of Sir Thomas Wyatt (unlikely when compared to another known picture); or Wyatt's wife, Elizabeth, the sister of Lord Cobham. --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 12 16:26:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21540 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:26:01 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11326; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:37:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA06064 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:35:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtpgate.uvm.edu (smtpgate.uvm.edu [132.198.101.121]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id PAA06046 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:35:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 132.198.103.243 (132.198.103.243) by smtpgate.uvm.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.C15FEF90@smtpgate.uvm.edu>; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:15:28 -0500 Message-ID: <378A6A46.3EBA@uvm.edu> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:21:02 -0500 From: Hope Greenberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Question on Ashelford References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Hope Greenberg Robin Netherton wrote: > In other words, there's evidence that the inscription was added later, and > wrongly. I do not know whether that means that other inscriptions were > also added after Holbein's death. Yes, the most famous/obvious being the drawing labelled "Mistress Jak" who was Edward VI's nurse. It is more probably (based on the drawing style and clothing and similarity of appearance) a study sketch for one of the figures in the Thomas More family portrait. There is another mis-labelled one that has since been identified as another study sketch for one of More's daughters--the name escapes me now. Overall the general rule of thumb now is don't trust any Holbein label! - Hope _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 12 16:42:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21905 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:42:14 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14517; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:53:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA09554 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:51:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp1-alterdial.uu.net (alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.22]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id PAA09535 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:51:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jwilbur1 by smtp1-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: 119.pcpool89.corp.us.uu.net [153.39.89.119]) id QQgxpf07353 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:51:28 GMT Message-Id: From: "Jessica Wilbur" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:55:04 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: Question on Ashelford Priority: normal In-reply-to: <378A6A46.3EBA@uvm.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > > -Poster: Hope Greenberg > > Robin Netherton wrote: > > > In other words, there's evidence that the inscription was added later, and > > wrongly. I do not know whether that means that other inscriptions were > > also added after Holbein's death. > > Yes, the most famous/obvious being the drawing labelled "Mistress Jak" > who was Edward VI's nurse. It is more probably (based on the drawing > style and clothing and similarity of appearance) a study sketch for one > of the figures in the Thomas More family portrait. There is another > mis-labelled one that has since been identified as another study sketch > for one of More's daughters--the name escapes me now. Overall the > general rule of thumb now is don't trust any Holbein label! > > - Hope Thanks!! I'm glad I asked! =) --Jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 12 17:26:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22621 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:26:22 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA22248; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:38:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA21272 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:36:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA21226 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:36:09 -0600 (MDT) From: Appin1@aol.com Received: from Appin1@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id nUGa005500 (15550); Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:35:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:35:18 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilt? To: Joel Thompson , h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL NetMail version 2.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Appin1@aol.com Some of the oldest surviving tartans (pre-1745) come from the Hebrides & are very bright -- orange/green. So the dyes were colorfast & were bright. Members of clans were recognized byt the plant or badge they wore in their bonnets, not by the color or sett of the tartan. The painting of the battle of Culloden, done aboutr 20 years after the fact, but using real participants as models, shows Highlanders wearing several different tartans. Each garment -- hose, pladi, waistcoat and coat -- is of a different tartan. But members of a clan wear the same spring of heather or oak leaf in their bonnets. While not an expert on Highland clothing, I AM the coordinator of an 18th century Highland living history group and we have done extensive research into clothing and folkways of the Highlands. An excellent resource is H. F. McClintock, "Old Irish & Hihgland Dress" last published in 1950 and still the seminal work on the subject. Grab a copy if you can find one. Kathleen Norvell Coordinator, Appin Regiment, Jacobite Rebellion, 1745-46 _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 12 18:43:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA23887 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:43:55 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04481; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:54:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA19000 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:26:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA18865 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:25:58 -0600 (MDT) From: Appin1@aol.com Received: from Appin1@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id cWQEa24566 (2701); Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:24:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:24:03 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilt? To: Joseph & Christine , h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL NetMail version 2.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Appin1@aol.com Joseph -- YOu are quite right about clan, "ancient" & "hunting" tartans. The "Sobieski Stuarts" made up quite a lot of what we now consider today as gospel regarding tartans & kilts. They published a book on the subject in the mid-19th century & the damage is still being felt. I have photos that prove you can take a bunch of Highlanders dressed in the loudest tartans inaginable (like "loud Mcleod" & Buchanan) out into the woods and "hide the Highlander." They cannot be seen in the trees & underbrush, even in the winter because the pattern of the tartan acts like camoflauge. I have never heaard of doubling the fabric by folding it over when you throw the plaid, however. The great kilt ("breaccan mor")traditionally consisted of two widths of fabric (generally 30" or so wide each, to make it around 60" wide) by at least 6 yds. long. The lower half of that 60" wide material covered the "nether regions" (similar to the modern kilt, but unpleated), while the top half of it was pulled over the shoulder or head for protection from the weather. There are many contemporary illustrations of Highlanders seen from the rearthat show them with the top half of the great kilt puleed up like that. Kathleen Norvell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 12 18:45:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA23904 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:45:42 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04776; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:56:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA18462 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:24:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA18407 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:24:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-71-154.irvn11.pacbell.net [206.170.71.154]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27660 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378A08E6.364BA62@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:25:41 +0000 From: Dietmar Organization: Completely Disorganized X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04C-PBI-NC404 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Re: Question on Ashelford References: <378A6A46.3EBA@uvm.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, Robin Netherton wrote: >> In other words, there's evidence that the inscription was added >> later, and wrongly. I do not know whether that means that other >> inscriptions were also added after Holbein's death. Hope added: > There is another mis-labelled one that has > since been identified as another study sketch for one of More's > daughters--the name escapes me now. Overall the general rule of > thumb now is don't trust any Holbein label! That sounds a bit harsh, but not far from true. There is an inherent problem with identifying the art from that period. This is especially true of German woodcuts. By their very nature, there were a number of prints made before the blocks were destroyed or sometimes sold to bookprinters. Often the blocks and prints were not signed or numbered in any way. Monograms were often added years later, usually in hopes of adding to the value. Sometimes lower quality prints were made centuries later and disreputable dealers would sell them as older original prints. Hundreds of prints were attributed to Albrecht Durer even though he had nothing to do with them. Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 12 18:46:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA23911 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:46:46 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05046; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:57:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA16925 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:46:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA16870 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:45:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA02662 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378A1C1D.B6F77B4@serv.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:47:25 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: cotehardie fitting References: <2e1b6ee9.24b76de4@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover WRT fitting cotehardies. I have found that when you don't use straight seams over the bosom, you get a very supportive fit. My cotehardie's front seam is quite curvy, straight from the hips up to right under the breasts. Then it flares out and then back in. Kind of like a question mark. When the gown is laced up however, the line appears straight, my breasts are quite supported. Quite. This kind of fit takes some work but worth it. It has been suggested to me that the bath house shifts have been fitted in a similar way, with the huge curve at the side seams on the front pieces of the garment. I need no fitted foundation but I do wear a linen shift underneath in the style of the garment in Kohler. Cut on the bias. Superb fit. > I dont think there's all that much info to go on. The people who believe that > there is no fitted foundation garment seem to be able to make cotehardies > just fine without them. I have been experimenting, assuming that I will make > a wardrobe of cotehardies in the future (which seems to get farther off all > the time) and it seems to me that the best plan would be to make an extremely > fitted underkirtle or two, to take the stress off the main garments. I go > back and forth between a full kirtle with sleeves, and something akin to the > Bohemian stuff mentioned, with no sleeves (which would then need an > underkirtle on top of THAT -- pretty stuffy). > > But I think that if someone wants to experiment with an undergarment, then > she should! Try it out and let the rest of us know how it works -- we might > be convinced. > > Gail Finke > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 12 18:48:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA23926 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:48:09 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05104; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:58:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA22415 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:53:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from send304.yahoomail.com (web304.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.186]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id OAA22055 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:52:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19990712205236.9101.rocketmail@send304.yahoomail.com> Received: from [129.237.252.19] by web304.yahoomail.com; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:52:36 PDT Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:52:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Margretta de Vries Subject: H-COST: german translations To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margretta de Vries On a personal note, if people have short texts, I am fluent in both German and English, and could translate most texts well, if anyone is interested. I've had experience doing both directions, German to English and English to German. contact me, if interested! margretta === Margretta de Vries _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 12 18:49:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA23936 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:49:16 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05389; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:59:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA01402 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:18:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id PAA01098 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:18:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA08519 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378A5BEE.158F217D@serv.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:19:42 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Question on Ashelford References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > In other words, there's evidence that the inscription was added later, and > wrongly. I do not know whether that means that other inscriptions were > also added after Holbein's death. Thanks for info. :) There is a portrait of Bess of Hardwick, Countess of Shrewsbury that has "Marie Reigna" painted into the background. This was also common practice, to paint the current reign but in this case, the Holbein sketch would have read Henry not Anne. So, thanks again for the clarification! Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 12 18:49:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA23941 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:49:36 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05507; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:00:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA04033 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:27:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp1-alterdial.uu.net (smtp1-alterdial.uu.net [192.48.96.19]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id PAA03902 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:27:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jwilbur1 by smtp1-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: 119.pcpool89.corp.us.uu.net [153.39.89.119]) id QQgxpd11266 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:25:16 GMT Message-Id: From: "Jessica Wilbur" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:28:53 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: Question on Ashelford Priority: normal References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" Thanks! I had just received a similar reply, privately. I didn't know that the names on the sketches were later additions. That certainly does clear up a lot of things. =) Though I am a little surprised to see the date on the catalog you mention. I've seen more recent publications that still label that picture as Anne Boleyn. You would think that twenty years after they figured out it wasn't her, that it would be common knowledge (I'm not contradicting what you've said, just pondering the way misconceptions can persist!) Do you know if the catalog you mention is still in print? Thanks for your help! --Jessica > > -Poster: Robin Netherton > > > On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Jessica Wilbur wrote: > > > ... I noticed Holbein's sketch of Anne Boleyn, which is thought to have > > been done while she was pregnant. It's the one where she's wearing a > > linen cap which has a strap or tie under her chin. Well, the caption > > next to it said "An unknown lady" with the date (which I've now > > forgotten) and attributed to Holbein. I'm confused as to why she would > > note it this way, since Holbein wrote on the sketch, "Anna Bollein > > Queen". The description in the caption matches the sketch, so it's not > > like the picture got switched during layout of the book. And elsewhere > > in the book, Ashelford makes reference to "the unknown lady in plate > > 24". I can't imagine why this would be. Holbein labelled many of his > > sketches with the subjects' names, and he could hardly have been > > mistaken about the identity of a sketch of the queen. > > > > So can anyone think of a reason as to why this sketch would be labelled > > as "an unknown lady"? > > >From _Holbein and the Court of Henry VIII_, a nice little exhibit catalog > published by the Queen's Gallery, Buckingham Palace, 1978: "It is most > unlikely that the instcription identifies the sitter correctly. Probably > the most authentic portrait of Anne Boleyn is that in the National > Portrait Gallery, which is unconnected with this drawing. The drawing by > Holbein now in the British Museum is no longer thought to represent her, > and the inscription on that drawing is certainly not contemporary." > > In other words, there's evidence that the inscription was added later, and > wrongly. I do not know whether that means that other inscriptions were > also added after Holbein's death. That would make sense, though. The > drawings themselves were collected from Holbein's effects after he died > suddenly from the plague in 1543. They were apparently made into a book > for King Edward VI and later given away or sold; the first definitive > mention of the book is in a personal inventory of 1590. The Queen's > Gallery catalog lists a wondrously complex chain of ownership as the book > passed through many people's hands, through gift and purchase, returning > to the royal family and leaving it again once or twice more before coming > back to the Crown for good by 1675. > > On the basis of some heraldic drawings on the back of the page (the book > continues), there have been two possible identifications suggested for > this lady: Margaret, Lady Lee, the sister of Sir Thomas Wyatt (unlikely > when compared to another known picture); or Wyatt's wife, Elizabeth, the > sister of Lord Cobham. > > --Robin > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 12 19:38:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA24831 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:38:56 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12242; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:48:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA15715 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:47:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dgs.dgsys.com (robin@dgs.dgsys.com [204.97.64.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id SAA15706 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:47:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by dgs.dgsys.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA20150 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:47:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: dgs.dgsys.com: robin owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:47:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Robin Netherton To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Question on Ashelford In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Robin Netherton On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Jessica Wilbur wrote: > Thanks! I had just received a similar reply, privately. I didn't know > that the names on the sketches were later additions. That certainly does > clear up a lot of things. =) Though I am a little surprised to see the > date on the catalog you mention. I've seen more recent publications that > still label that picture as Anne Boleyn. You would think that twenty > years after they figured out it wasn't her, that it would be common > knowledge (I'm not contradicting what you've said, just pondering the > way misconceptions can persist!) Once something is in the literature, it tends to get re-cited and repeated for a VERY long time. People would have no reason to question its validity unless they happen to have seen the more recent research. > Do you know if the catalog you mention is still in print? Good question. I got it at the Queen's Gallery in, hmmm, 1985 or so. Title is "Holbein and the court of Henry VIII. There's no author or ISBN. Publisher is "The Queen's Gallery, Buckingham Palace," dated 1978-79. Printer is Lund Humphries (London & Bradford). I think you'd have your best luck by checking with a good used art book store in England (Zwemmer's, Ian Shipley, Blackwell), or with the Queen's Gallery directly. It's a lovely little book -- 144 pages, trade paperback size, a few color pix and lots of b/w. --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 12 22:55:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA28154 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:55:12 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA07133; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:06:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA13639 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:04:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA13624 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:04:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from test (ip203-247.cc.interlog.com [207.34.203.247]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA17158 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:04:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990713000659.009aadd0@mail.interlog.com> X-Sender: dnunn@mail.interlog.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:06:59 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Danielle Nunn Subject: Re: H-COST: Question on Ashelford In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, >I just received my copy of Jane Ashelford's _Visual History of Costume: >16th Century_. As I was looking through it yesterday, I >noticed Holbein's sketch of Anne Boleyn, which is thought to have been >done while she was pregnant. It's the one where she's wearing a linen >cap which has a strap or tie under her chin. Well, the caption next to >it said "An unknown lady" with the date (which I've now forgotten) and >attributed to Holbein... Unfortunately, this is just an example of one of Ashelford's more obvious errors in my opinion. She has good pictures but, her text needs to be taken with a rather large grain of salt at times. Enjoy the book. Cheers, Danielle (who is gloating over the copy of Alcega she received for her birthday yesterday!) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 12 23:30:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA28828 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:30:52 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA11096; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:42:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA18793 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:40:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA18784 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:40:24 -0600 (MDT) From: AnnoraK@aol.com Received: from AnnoraK@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6EJDa05367 (363) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:38:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2df5de66.24bc1ce2@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:38:58 EDT Subject: H-COST: Grommet Setters??? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AnnoraK@aol.com In keeping with a recent thread . . . In conjunction with my first foray into corsetry, I am shopping for the aforementioned grommet setter. I know that Greenberg & Hammer is the best place for grommets, but I can't seem to get a catalog out of them, tho I've asked twice in the past six months. So, I'm going elsewhere for these. My problem is the setter. The only size 00 setter that I can find (either online or in a catalog) is AlterYears' $40 one. Since I don't know how often I'm going to be using this beast, I really don't feel like spending that much on one. Do any of the other grommet sources (Richard the Thread, etc.) sell setters to go with them? Or is there anywhere in the DC Metro area where I can pick one up? Thanx! Jen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 00:06:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA29343 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:06:32 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA13908; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:13:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id XAA22931 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:12:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.nj.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.nj.home.com [24.3.128.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id XAA22923 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:12:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cc1010062a ([24.3.134.203]) by mail.rdc1.nj.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990713051208.EFJD410.mail.rdc1.nj.home.com@cc1010062a> for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:12:08 -0700 Message-ID: <004301beccec$db585520$cb860318@avnl1.nj.home.com> From: "Kyna Grannd" To: References: <2df5de66.24bc1ce2@aol.com> Subject: Re: H-COST: Grommet Setters??? Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 01:02:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Kyna Grannd" Fastener Supply Company is who I go to for grommets, eyelets and setters. I had the same problem with Greenberg & Hammer....6 requests via email AND phone in the past 6 months and still nothing...no catalog...no email response...they DID however answer the phone :\ www.fastener-supply.com or call San Francisco at 415-392-6968 or Los Angeles at 213-749-2271 ~Kyna ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 12:38 AM Subject: H-COST: Grommet Setters??? > > -Poster: AnnoraK@aol.com > > In keeping with a recent thread . . . > > In conjunction with my first foray into corsetry, I am shopping for the > aforementioned grommet setter. I know that Greenberg & Hammer is the best > place for grommets, but I can't seem to get a catalog out of them, tho I've > asked twice in the past six months. So, I'm going elsewhere for these. My > problem is the setter. The only size 00 setter that I can find (either > online or in a catalog) is AlterYears' $40 one. Since I don't know how often > I'm going to be using this beast, I really don't feel like spending that much > on one. Do any of the other grommet sources (Richard the Thread, etc.) sell > setters to go with them? Or is there anywhere in the DC Metro area where I > can pick one up? > > Thanx! > Jen > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 03:20:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA31408 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 03:20:25 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA26426; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 02:32:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id CAA11898 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 02:31:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.rma.edu (root@smtp.rma.edu [207.0.141.48]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id CAA11888 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 02:31:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from malruck (USR1-42.rmaonline.net [207.48.171.42]) by smtp.rma.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA31774 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 04:31:05 -0400 Message-ID: <013e01becd09$f8cf7da0$56ab30cf@malruck> From: "Joseph & Christine" To: "Historic Costume Mailing List" Subject: Re: H-COST: Hunting kilt? Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 04:30:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Joseph & Christine" Hi Kathleen, >I have never heard of doubling the fabric by folding it over when you >throw the plaid, however. This was the first I'd heard of it, and the only place I've heard of it. I have no idea who David Stewart of Garth was, save that he wrote "Sketches of the Highlanders of Scotland," published in Edinburgh in 1822. (snip) There are many contemporary illustrations of Highlanders >seen from the rear that show them with the top half of the great kilt >pulled up like that. I think I may have not been clear - it's folded lengthwise, so you have about 60" by three yards instead of six. That gives you the covering you describe, and makes the thing a whole lot easier to "throw." I wore it that way at the Potomac Celtic festival, and it really works well. Regards, Joseph _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 08:46:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA32549 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:46:01 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA15621; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:57:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA00457 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:55:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA00449 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:55:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.217.218.104] (ell120.acadia.net [205.217.218.104]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA09133 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:55:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: pulliam@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:56:21 -0500 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Subject: H-COST: correcting info Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> Another good example of this is the often-quoted (erroneous) information that Eleanora of Toledo was buried in the same gown she wears in the portrait by Bronzino. The tomb was open briefly in 1858, someone saw *something* that reminded him of the portrait, and made that statement. It was disproved when the conservation work in the 1980s, but it's still being quoted (unfortunately, it was published in many places.) Deborah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 08:53:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA05030 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:53:07 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16596; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:04:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA01860 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:03:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu10.smtp.email.msn.com [207.46.181.60]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA01832 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:03:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.234 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:02:28 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: Grommet Setters??? Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:45:31 -0400 Message-ID: <000701becd39$1d0a5940$LocalHost@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-reply-to: <2df5de66.24bc1ce2@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" What period corset are you trying to make? Grommets would be incorrect well into the 19th Century. You might consider skipping the grommets entirely. Use a small awl or nail to work open a hole of the right size between threads of the fabric. Do not cut any threads. Then buttonhole stitch the edges of the new round opening. This is strong and lasts quite well. Trick is to work open the hole, not cut it. I've used grommets and unless you do this anyway before you set the grommet, the fabric will eventually pull out of the teeth. Hope this might help. Hope H. Dunlap > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of AnnoraK@aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 12:39 AM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Grommet Setters??? > > > > -Poster: AnnoraK@aol.com > > In keeping with a recent thread . . . > > In conjunction with my first foray into corsetry, I am > shopping for the > aforementioned grommet setter. I know that Greenberg & > Hammer is the best > place for grommets, but I can't seem to get a catalog out of > them, tho I've > asked twice in the past six months. So, I'm going elsewhere > for these. My > problem is the setter. The only size 00 setter that I can > find (either > online or in a catalog) is AlterYears' $40 one. Since I > don't know how often > I'm going to be using this beast, I really don't feel like > spending that much > on one. Do any of the other grommet sources (Richard the > Thread, etc.) sell > setters to go with them? Or is there anywhere in the DC > Metro area where I > can pick one up? > > Thanx! > Jen > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 10:59:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA25371 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:59:15 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09263; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:09:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA00739 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:07:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mx20.rmci.net (saturn.rmci.net [205.162.184.38]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id KAA00711 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:07:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 17518 invoked from network); 13 Jul 1999 16:04:03 -0000 Received: from pag-di82.rica.net (HELO rica.net) (209.211.110.82) by mx20.rmci.net with SMTP; 13 Jul 1999 16:04:03 -0000 Message-ID: <378B6382.23E30F4F@rica.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:04:19 -0400 From: Jennie Chancey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Anyone watch "The Hunley" on TNT? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Jennie Chancey This was Ted Turner's film about the Civil War submarine that sank the _Housatonic_ in Charleston Harbor. I thought most of the men's costumes were decent (though Gen. Beauregard's looked a bit too crisp and shiny for 1864), but the majority of the women's costumes were awful. I don't think I saw one woman with a corset underneath her dress. Some of the gowns were nicely done, but there were too many women in the "white blouse and skirt" combo that, from photos and fashion plates, we know were not widely worn until after the War. The "ladies of the evening" shown in the barroom scenes were also off quite a bit--I saw two with late 1870s and early 1880s necklines. And the hairstyle of Lt. Dixon's dead fiancee' was such a 1990s take on the 1860s--pouffy on top and with the hair smoothed over the ears rather than the flat top and side poufs to make the face look wider. Anybody else? Jennie -- Sense and Sensibility http://www.sensibility.com winsome clothing with an old-fashioned appeal _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 12:35:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA27208 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:35:53 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02310; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:45:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA23303 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:43:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA23281 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:43:18 -0600 (MDT) From: MzScahlett@aol.com Received: from MzScahlett@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6TAOa18551 (14400) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <43a1d8de.24bcd486@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:42:30 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Grommet Setters??? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com In a message dated 7/12/1999 21:40:54 Pacific Daylight Time, AnnoraK@aol.com writes: << AlterYears' $40 one. Since I don't know how often I'm going to be using this beast, I really don't feel like spending that much on one. Do any of the other grommet sources (Richard the Thread, etc.) sell setters to go with them? Or is there anywhere in the DC Metro area where I can pick one up? >> The one I got cost me about $40 but it is "adjustable" (it has different heads that slip on so it works with various size grommets. I don't think you'll do much better for anything worth using. angela +++++ Angela F. Lazear Costumes & Custom Clothing Theatrical Costume Design "The truth of it is, I have no shirt." W. Shakespeare _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 13:30:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA28099 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:30:14 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11287; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:40:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA05665 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:39:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA05617 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:38:50 -0600 (MDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6AXSa25615 (14399) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:36:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:36:27 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Anyone watch "The Hunley" on TNT? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 7/13/99 12:12:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jchancey@rica.net writes: << This was Ted Turner's film about the Civil War submarine that sank the _Housatonic_ in Charleston Harbor. I thought most of the men's costumes were decent (though Gen. Beauregard's looked a bit too crisp and shiny for 1864), but the majority of the women's costumes were awful. >> Turner films are notoriously low on costume budget. Most things were probably rented....and women's things may have come from local costumers in Charleston. I'm guessing though 'cause I didn't see or work on the project but I know people who worked on the film about the iron clads....that's what I base my gossip on here. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 13:41:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA28371 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:41:01 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13457; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:50:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA28061 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:04:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web808.mail.yahoo.com (web808.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.68]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id MAA27930 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:03:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19990713180635.4616.rocketmail@web808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.247.217.34] by web808.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:06:35 PDT Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:06:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Sarah Toney Subject: Re: H-COST: Grommet Setters??? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Sarah Toney I hate to say this, since these are really pretty bad, but if you are really concerned about money and aren't going to use it much, Jo-Ann Fabrics sells a cheap-o hand held one for $10 or so... but they really are JUNK... Sarah --- MzScahlett@aol.com wrote: > > -Poster: MzScahlett@aol.com > > In a message dated 7/12/1999 21:40:54 Pacific > Daylight Time, AnnoraK@aol.com > writes: > > << AlterYears' $40 one. Since I don't know how > often > I'm going to be using this beast, I really don't > feel like spending that > much > on one. Do any of the other grommet sources > (Richard the Thread, etc.) > sell > setters to go with them? Or is there anywhere in > the DC Metro area where I > can pick one up? > >> > The one I got cost me about $40 but it is > "adjustable" (it has different > heads that slip on so it works with various size > grommets. I don't think > you'll do much better for anything worth using. > > angela > +++++ > Angela F. Lazear > Costumes & Custom Clothing > Theatrical Costume Design > "The truth of it is, I have no shirt." > W. Shakespeare > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 13:53:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA28550 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:53:03 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15586; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:03:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA11885 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:01:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA11767 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:01:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem103.hulk.pol.co.uk ([195.92.6.103] helo=herimats) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 1147nq-0000EC-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:01:19 +0100 Message-ID: <006601becd62$19a586c0$67065cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: <43a1d8de.24bcd486@aol.com> Subject: Re: H-COST: Tewkesbury Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:51:51 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Having just processed the first sets of pics from The re-enactment at Tewkesbury at the weekend, I am starting to upload them to www.soft.net.uk/wysewords/tewkesbury Ii should have most of the better ones up by the weekend. By then I should also have processed the second set which is of cloesups of the battle itself. Dave LD MUNDY Editor Heritage Matters _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 14:11:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28914 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:11:16 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18505; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:22:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA16772 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:20:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA16758 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:20:24 -0600 (MDT) From: Simone89@aol.com Received: from Simone89@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6GXTa03005 (4317) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:18:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:18:31 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Anyone watch "The Hunley" on TNT? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Simone89@aol.com << This was Ted Turner's film about the Civil War submarine that sank the > _Housatonic_ in Charleston Harbor. I thought most of the men's costumes > were decent (though Gen. Beauregard's looked a bit too crisp and shiny >for 1864), but the majority of the women's costumes were awful. >> >Turner films are notoriously low on costume budget. Most things were probably >rented....and women's things may have come from local costumers in >Charleston. I'm guessing though 'cause I didn't see or work on the project >but I know people who worked on the film about the iron clads....that's what >I base my gossip on here. Funny y'all should say how awful the women's costumes were. Alot of Civil War reenactors worked on that film. I was very amused when one of the ladies I work with brought in her 'gowns' to show me what she wore for it. It was brown and white cotton- very plain chemise and shirt, no bodice. For an SCAdian who does Elizabethan...... well I'm no expert on the Civil War era (even if I am from Charleston) but I was shocked at what she considered 'good' clothing. Simone89@aol.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 14:13:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28935 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:13:56 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18802; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:23:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA17276 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:22:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web801.mail.yahoo.com (web801.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.61]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id NAA17257 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:22:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19990713192602.28424.rocketmail@web801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.247.217.34] by web801.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:26:02 PDT Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:26:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Sarah Toney Subject: Re: H-COST: Tewkesbury To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Sarah Toney I have a question... I put this addy into my browser and it couldn't find it... will I not be able to access it from the US? (I'm not up on how these things work... I dunno). Sarah > Having just processed the first sets of pics from > The re-enactment at > Tewkesbury at the weekend, I am starting to upload > them to > > www.soft.net.uk/wysewords/tewkesbury > > Ii should have most of the better ones up by the > weekend. By then I should > also have processed the second set which is of > cloesups of the battle > itself. > Dave > LD MUNDY > Editor Heritage Matters > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 14:16:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28952 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:16:55 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19044; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:25:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA09720 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:53:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp1-alterdial.uu.net (alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.22]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA09631 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:52:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jwilbur1 by smtp1-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: 119.pcpool89.corp.us.uu.net [153.39.89.119]) id QQgxsl21510 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:52:58 GMT Message-Id: From: "Jessica Wilbur" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:56:44 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: correcting info Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > > -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) > > < for a VERY long time. People would have no reason to question its validity > unless they happen to have seen the more recent research.>> > > Another good example of this is the often-quoted (erroneous) information > that Eleanora of Toledo was buried in the same gown she wears in the > portrait by Bronzino. > > The tomb was open briefly in 1858, someone saw *something* that reminded > him of the portrait, and made that statement. It was disproved when the > conservation work in the 1980s, but it's still being quoted (unfortunately, > it was published in many places.) > Such as Ashelford, for example. ;-) Seriously, that misinformation is in the caption next to the picture of Elenora of Toledo. I've also noticed a picture is included in this book which is often labelled as Catherine Howard, but is now thought to be Elizabeth Seymour, Jane's sister. So I think whoever mentioned that Ashelford's text is not totally accurate was right on the money. =( Who can you trust these days? --Jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 14:32:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29306 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:32:41 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21743; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:40:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA21360 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:38:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mi.engin.umich.edu (root@mi.engin.umich.edu [141.212.106.41]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA21301 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:38:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (parsla@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mi.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA12661 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:38:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:38:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Parsla Liepa To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Tewkesbury In-Reply-To: <19990713192602.28424.rocketmail@web801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Parsla Liepa Nor could I. (That this is a UK site doesn't matter.) I could, however, get to the main Heritage Matters site, http://www.soft.net.uk/wysewords/ . Parsla Having just processed the first sets of pics from <> The re-enactment at <> Tewkesbury at the weekend, I am starting to upload <> them to <> <> www.soft.net.uk/wysewords/tewkesbury <> <> Ii should have most of the better ones up by the <> weekend. By then I should <> also have processed the second set which is of <> cloesups of the battle <> itself. <> Dave <> LD MUNDY <> Editor Heritage Matters <> <> <> <_________________________________________________________________ <> To leave this mailing list, send mail to <> majordomo@indra.com <> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME <> < <_________________________________________________________ Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA30136 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:16:03 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00681; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:26:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA02127 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:23:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from falcon.canfield.com (falcon.canfield.com [206.191.139.20]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA02101 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:23:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Leslie (u6-46.wa.net [206.191.135.110]) by falcon.canfield.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01557 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:24:31 -0700 Message-Id: <4.1.19990713131458.035c4d20@mail.canfield.com> X-Sender: leslie@mail.canfield.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:20:19 -0700 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: Leslie Helms Subject: H-COST: Grommets and Tewkesbury In-Reply-To: <199907131924.NAA17807@indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Leslie Helms If you must use grommets, use a very stout interfacing under them to give more meat for the metal to bite into. You might try canvas/sailmakers' shops to see if you can have them professionally inserted, IF you can find someone who can do a small enough size. Better yet, don't use 'em at all. Try a strip of sturdy canvas as interfacing and use the awl method. You can put just a few stitches around each one and reinforce with Fray Check or such. I couldn't get the Tewkesbury URL to work either. It seems to be an address problem just in the last two words of the address; the soft/net/UK server was responding. Leslie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 15:18:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA30147 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:18:57 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01151; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:28:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA02667 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:26:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA02580 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:25:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem85.tweety.pol.co.uk ([195.92.6.213] helo=herimats) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 11497g-0002ck-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:25:53 +0100 Message-ID: <00b001becd6d$e9e06840$67065cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: <19990713192602.28424.rocketmail@web801.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: H-COST: Tewkesbury Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:24:13 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Sorry you were a bit quick of the mark. I am now just starting the first of the uploads I am doing it slowly and with large pics so that people can download them or look at the details so its a slow process. Dave LD MUNDY Editor Heritage Matters ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Toney To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 8:26 PM Subject: Re: H-COST: Tewkesbury > > -Poster: Sarah Toney > > I have a question... I put this addy into my browser > and it couldn't find it... will I not be able to > access it from the US? (I'm not up on how these things > work... I dunno). > > Sarah > > > > Having just processed the first sets of pics from > > The re-enactment at > > Tewkesbury at the weekend, I am starting to upload > > them to > > > > www.soft.net.uk/wysewords/tewkesbury > > > > Ii should have most of the better ones up by the > > weekend. By then I should > > also have processed the second set which is of > > cloesups of the battle > > itself. > > Dave > > LD MUNDY > > Editor Heritage Matters > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > > majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 15:19:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA30149 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:18:58 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01093; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:28:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA02648 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:26:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA02587 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:25:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem85.tweety.pol.co.uk ([195.92.6.213] helo=herimats) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 11497i-0002ck-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:25:54 +0100 Message-ID: <00b101becd6d$eaea3720$67065cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: Subject: Re: H-COST: Tewkesbury Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:24:41 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Sorry you were a bit quick of the mark. I am now just starting the first of the uploads I am doing it slowly and with large pics so that people can download them or look at the details so its a slow process. Dave LD MUNDY Editor Heritage Matters ----- Original Message ----- From: Parsla Liepa To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 8:38 PM Subject: Re: H-COST: Tewkesbury > > -Poster: Parsla Liepa > > > Nor could I. (That this is a UK site doesn't matter.) I could, however, > get to the main Heritage Matters site, http://www.soft.net.uk/wysewords/ . > > Parsla > > > < > <> Having just processed the first sets of pics from > <> The re-enactment at > <> Tewkesbury at the weekend, I am starting to upload > <> them to > <> > <> www.soft.net.uk/wysewords/tewkesbury > <> > <> Ii should have most of the better ones up by the > <> weekend. By then I should > <> also have processed the second set which is of > <> cloesups of the battle > <> itself. > <> Dave > <> LD MUNDY > <> Editor Heritage Matters > <> > <> > <> > <_________________________________________________________________ > <> To leave this mailing list, send mail to > <> majordomo@indra.com > <> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > <> > < > <_________________________________________________________ > < > < _________________________________________________________________ > < To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > < with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > < > > > Parsla > > Vita brevis est, saxulum edeste. > **************************************************************************** * > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 15:46:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA15638 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:46:52 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06173; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:56:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA09115 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:54:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA09100 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:54:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail-out-3.tiac.net (mail-out-3.tiac.net [199.0.65.15]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25290 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:54:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from kdp@tiac.net) Received: from kdp.tiac.net (kdp.tiac.net [206.119.75.41]) by mail-out-3.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03248 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:54:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from kdp@tiac.net) Message-Id: <199907132054.QAA03248@mail-out-3.tiac.net> From: "John Page" To: Subject: H-COST: Re: Ladies' trousers, 12thC Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:08:12 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "John Page" Hi, List! A friend just got back from France and she claims to have seen a bas relief in a Toulouse church showing two women with trousers under their dresses. She said the women were wearing somewhat loose, mid-calf dresses with round necklines and elbow length sleeves; under this they were wearing ankle length trousers with seams up the fronts of the legs. Has anyone seen this? Thanks, Kristin Page _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 15:48:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA17163 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:48:17 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06008; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:55:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA08950 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:53:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA08821 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:53:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem37.tweety.pol.co.uk ([195.92.6.165] helo=herimats) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 1149YU-0003Iz-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:53:34 +0100 Message-ID: <00b901becd71$c8538d70$67065cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: Subject: Re: H-COST: Tewkesbury update Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:53:37 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Sorry for the slight delay; After convincing the server that it should let me in I had to bribe a colleague to give me some of his space. If you are not getting to the site with the previous URl try the shoter version > <> www.soft.net.uk/wysewords/tewkesbu.htm > <> The opening page is up . I hope to have gallery one up by midnight. If you discover any problems please let me know; Every time I go to Tewkesbury the sun shines and I get badly sunburnt. So bear with me thru my suffering. thanks Dave _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 15:54:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21462 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:54:26 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07285; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:03:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA02459 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:25:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA02356 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:24:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05751 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378BA0F5.D0BF2A97@serv.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:26:30 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Tewkesbury References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > Nor could I. (That this is a UK site doesn't matter.) I could, however, > get to the main Heritage Matters site, http://www.soft.net.uk/wysewords/ . While I got to the Heritage Matters site, I couldn't find the photos. Can you give more information than this? There are too many links to choose from. -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 16:10:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24088 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:10:26 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09367; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:18:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA14000 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:17:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id PAA13981 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:17:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06793 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378BAD2C.5E741136@serv.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:18:37 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Ladies' trousers, 12thC References: <199907132054.QAA03248@mail-out-3.tiac.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover I haven't seen it but having the name of the church would help track it down. Did she take pictures? If not, who's got the rope. *G* > A friend just got back from France and she claims to have seen a bas relief > in a Toulouse church showing two women with trousers under their dresses. > She said the women were wearing somewhat loose, mid-calf dresses with round > necklines and elbow length sleeves; under this they were wearing ankle > length trousers with seams up the fronts of the legs. -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 16:44:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24721 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:44:14 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09377; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:18:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA14035 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:17:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from plaid.engin.umich.edu (root@plaid.engin.umich.edu [141.213.42.62]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id PAA14026 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:17:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (parsla@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by plaid.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA21063 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:17:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:17:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Parsla Liepa To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Ladies' trousers, 12thC In-Reply-To: <199907132054.QAA03248@mail-out-3.tiac.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Parsla Liepa Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24876 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:53:01 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16349; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:02:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA24352 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:01:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA24307 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:01:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.217.218.9] (ell25.acadia.net [205.217.218.9]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA03732 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:00:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: pulliam@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:01:53 -0500 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Subject: H-COST: correcting info again Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> I'm certainly not going to get into defending Jane Ashelford's book, as I don't always agree with her conclusions. It's a good collection of period graphics, though. However, I would like to point out that scholarship and research are part of a continuous process. In the case of the portrait of Elizabeth Seymour, once thought to be Catherine Howard, look at the publication date of Ashelford's book. I believe it was published in the mid 1980s, and probably never updated when it was republished -- that's not Ashelford's fault. I don't think *any* of the books in that series went into second editions, until they were collected (and edited down) into the large format, by Aileen Ribeiro. 15 years is a long time ago, particularly in clothing history. She can't be held accountable for discoveries made after her book was published. It's up to the reader to read carefully and critically, and read widely. Deborah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 17:09:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25060 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:09:16 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18929; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:19:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA27876 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:17:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA27778 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:17:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA08232 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378BBB3D.D9BCA8D4@serv.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:18:37 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Visual History books References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > don't think *any* of the books in that series went into second editions, > until they were collected (and edited down) into the large format, by > Aileen Ribeiro. Oh, please do tell more! I haven't heard of this, but have found the books to be most helpful with all of the pictorial documentation. Thanks, Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 17:09:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25064 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:09:37 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19023; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:19:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA28095 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:17:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp1-alterdial.uu.net (alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.22]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA27883 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:17:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jwilbur1 by smtp1-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: 119.pcpool89.corp.us.uu.net [153.39.89.119]) id QQgxsz07551 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:17:20 GMT Message-Id: From: "Jessica Wilbur" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:21:06 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: correcting info again Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > > -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) > > < Elenora of Toledo. I've also noticed a picture is included in this book > which is often labelled as Catherine Howard, but is now thought to be > Elizabeth Seymour, Jane's sister. So I think whoever mentioned that > Ashelford's text is not totally accurate was right > on the money.>> > > I'm certainly not going to get into defending Jane Ashelford's book, as I > don't always agree with her conclusions. It's a good collection of period > graphics, though. > True, though I could wish that more of them were in color. Ah, well, c'est la vie... > However, I would like to point out that scholarship and research are part > of a continuous process. In the case of the portrait of Elizabeth Seymour, > once thought to be Catherine Howard, look at the publication date of > Ashelford's book. I believe it was published in the mid 1980s, and probably > never updated when it was republished -- that's not Ashelford's fault. I > don't think *any* of the books in that series went into second editions, > until they were collected (and edited down) into the large format, by > Aileen Ribeiro. > True. I want to say that the edition I have is dated 1992, but I may be thinking of something else, so don't quote me on it. I'll check when I get home. And it's very possible that it wasn't updated, or at least not the parts we're discussing. That was something I had not considered. > 15 years is a long time ago, particularly in clothing history. She can't be > held accountable for discoveries made after her book was published. > A very good point. I just thought it odd that she would be aware of the mislabelling of Holbein's sketch, yet still be under misconceptions about other portraits. But I will admit that I don't know that much about the timing of new discoveries and new ways of thinking concerning identity of portrait subjects, so my comments certainly may not be accurate either. > It's up to the reader to read carefully and critically, and read widely. > Also a good point. Thanks! --Jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 19:06:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA27030 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:06:17 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04435; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:17:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA20063 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:15:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id SAA20033 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:15:30 -0600 (MDT) From: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Received: from ArcadiaCB@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6JPEa02779 (3984) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:14:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <895d433b.24bd3070@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:14:40 EDT Subject: H-COST: Re: Hunley on TNT (Long) To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Have to throw in my $.02 on this. Previous comments are my sentiments exactly. It was very interesting to watch this production. I have a friend who works as an assistant costumer/ wardrobe assistant (or whatever the title is) on movies, including a lot of TNT movies. She was asked to work on this one and refused to work in the costuming when she found out that Michael Boyd was the head costumer--he doesn't know anything about the period, won't learn and won't listen to anyone and just isn't a nice person for other reasons. Her particular period of expertise is the mid 19th c--when she has time to do living history events with us (mostly prior to her involvement with movies), her things were wonderful, she also has an extensive collection of originals. She knows the period. But in the movie world, she's a peon. The main costumers--who may not know the period--are the last word. Sometimes she can get things changed,(like the gratuitous sex scene in "Lincoln" where he *unbuttons* her chemise and takes it off) but usually has to defer to the head costumer, who does it their way with their ideas of the period The "stars" generally have their own designers, who seem to never know the period and only start to "research" it a few weeks before production. I've worked on several films with my friend since a lot get filmed in this area (most recent "Day Lincoln was Shot" (TNT)and "Love Letter" (Hallmark Hall of Fame). Another of my friends has worked as a casting coordinator for "good civilians" --people who know the period, have the correct clothing & accessories, women are all corseted--as opposed to the "regular reenactors" (men generally can't get too bad since they are in uniform, but a lot of women are only in the hobby to follow the guys and do no research and look awful) and "street extras" who wear what the production company provides (often very ill-fitting, poorly made and totally incorrect) and you can tell the different groups on screen by the clothing and manner. I also have other male friends who are often involved in extra casting who know men's clothing, but not women's and have hired some awful looking women (they just *assume* the women also do research in what they wear) and they have promised a certain number of bodies. When my friend (the costume asst) is working, she will try to cover up incorrect clothing, change bonnets/hats, etc., ones more correct and age suitable, try to get the worst ones stuck way in the back (but the farbs always want to be in front). My friends have loaned our own extra bits to try to rectify some of the mistakes--we always travel with lots since since the production people never know exactly what they want the scene to be and we may feel the need to change to something more appropriate. Unfortunately, the one person you can never change is "the star" who has their own designer with their own ideas of the period (no matter how incorrect). Our joke for the field hospital scene in "Love Letter" was that Jennifer Jason Leigh was frantically searching for a good costumer and hairdresser (or she should have been!). I don't know the budget details, except that lots of money is spent on some of the totally inappropriate things the stars wear. While attending the props sale for "Lincoln", I looked at the clothing they were selling just for a laugh--these were all made for the production, then later sold. They did have corsets--made from the Past Patterns pattern--although only minimally boned and that was plastic boning. The "bonnets" (I hesitate to call them that) were these very strange bits of eyelet (yes) and other trims, none with the correct shape--and of course the 1830s felt hat blanks that had been trimmed (southern women never had a new bonnet in 20 years and never thought about cutting down the old shape). Of the newly made women's dresses, there were only one or two that were halfway decent -- very plain and being sold for hundreds of dollars. For "Love Letter" some of the costumes (but obviously not the stars) came from Angels in London. As for the hairstylists, these are usually hired from the locals, so again, usually have no knowledge of the period. The head hairstylist on "Love Letter" insisted that everyone's hair be plastered and greased down so as to better show off the ringlets on the star. Anyway, the gest of this whole thing is that it was very interesting to watch "Hunley" to see just how bad the women's clothing was since my friend did not work in costuming (she worked in another area) where she could try to correct/hide some of the things. And they were just as awful as expected--the great uncorseted, incorrectly beheaded. Actually I think I did see the correct shape of one bonnet hiding behind a gentleman's head. But mostly, it was awful. So why do we keep doing this? It's long days for little pay, very early and/or very late hours. I kept relating to the extras in the rainy parade scene in "Hunley" (been there, done that). We gripe and moan and complain about all the inaccuracies. But for just coming around every few years, it's a way to spend hours and days with friends and have some memories--and then later try to see if you can see yourself on film (I know I'm in that scene somewhere). Occasionally we can get historical inaccuracies changed--but in the end--"it's Hollywood, not History" And the hope that one day a film will be done correctly--both historically and clothing wise. Sorry for rambling--it's just one of my pet peeves, from all perspectives, seeing it on TV or film, working as an extra, and knowing what my friend who works as an "insider" has to put up with since she has the knowledge but not the clout to do it correctly. Charlene _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 19:08:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA27040 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:08:46 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04894; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:20:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA20540 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:18:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pop.idsi.net (root@pop.idsi.net [208.195.228.22]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id SAA20528 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:18:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from chantal (04-ta04wf.idsi.net [208.201.30.106]) by pop.idsi.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id UAA29506 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:18:22 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.19990713201906.0096d780@pop.idsi.net> X-Sender: chanty@pop.idsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:21:34 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Chantal Pecourt Subject: H-COST: 18th century clothes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Chantal Pecourt Hello I am beginning my involvement with Rev War and am in need of patterns. I once had a catalog of clothes and patterns, it was small, about the size of a slim paper back book. It focused mainly on Scottish clothes and fabrics but the lady did custom period corsetry for a reasonable price. I can't fidn my catalog and was wondering if anyone knew of this place or another that would be able to create the correct undergarments. I am confident in my ability to sew the outer-clothing but a corset seems difficult, esp with no patters. On that note, if anyone knows of patterns for the proper corset that would be great too. The ones I am looking at have the tie shoulder straps and are not sleeveless. Thanks so much!! Chantal _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 19:57:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA27845 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:57:53 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12242; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:08:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA28152 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:07:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zeus.directcon.net (root@zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA28133 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:07:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r4p44.directcon.net [206.170.184.93]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA29630 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907140107.SAA29630@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Hunley on TNT (Long) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson ArcadiaCB@aol.com wrote: > >Have to throw in my $.02 on this. Previous comments are my sentiments >exactly. It was very interesting to watch this production. I have a friend >who works as an assistant costumer/ wardrobe assistant (or whatever the >title is) on movies, including a lot of TNT movies. She was asked to work on >this one and refused to work in the costuming when she found out that________ was the head costumer--he doesn't know anything about the period, won't >learn and won't listen to anyone and just isn't a nice person for other >reasons. I'd just like to say that I feel it's poor form to say this sort of thing, especially when it's hearsay, and to name names, which is why I deleted the name in question. Does your friend know that you're posting her stories? Film is a small world, and your description of her skills and knowledge could make her easily identifiable. There are many many more members of this list than you might think, and some of them are employed in the industry. It's quite possible that another costumer in a position to hire her will decide not to, having seen this on the list. >,(like the gratuitous sex scene in "Lincoln" where he >*unbuttons* her chemise and takes it off) And why is this incorrect? I haven't seen the film in question, but a number of mid 19th century chemises have front buttoned plackets. Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 20:15:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA28158 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:15:19 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA14120; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:26:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA00624 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:24:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA00590 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:24:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [209.63.113.208] (209-63-113-208.sea.jps.net [209.63.113.208]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA10160 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907140124.SAA10160@smtp6.jps.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.0c (197) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:24:20 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Hunley on TNT (Long) From: "R.L. Shep" To: h-costume@indra.com Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "R.L. Shep" I am afraid that I consider much of this posting *totally inappropiate*...... ~!~ R.L.Shep http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks ---------- >From: ArcadiaCB@aol.com >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: H-COST: Re: Hunley on TNT (Long) >Date: Tue, Jul 13, 1999, 5:14 PM > > >-Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com > >Have to throw in my $.02 on this. Previous comments are my sentiments >exactly. It was very interesting to watch this production. I have a friend >who works as an assistant costumer/ wardrobe assistant (or whatever the >title is) on movies, including a lot of TNT movies. She was asked to work on >this one and refused to work in the costuming when she found out that Michael >Boyd was the head costumer--he doesn't know anything about the period, won't >learn and won't listen to anyone and just isn't a nice person for other >reasons. Her particular period of expertise is the mid 19th c--when she has >time to do living history events with us (mostly prior to her involvement >with movies), her things were wonderful, she also has an extensive collection >of originals. She knows the period. But in the movie world, she's a peon. The >main costumers--who may not know the period--are the last word. Sometimes she >can get things changed,(like the gratuitous sex scene in "Lincoln" where he >*unbuttons* her chemise and takes it off) but usually has to defer to the >head costumer, who does it their way with their ideas of the period The >"stars" generally have their own designers, who seem to never know the period >and only start to "research" it a few weeks before production. I've worked on >several films with my friend since a lot get filmed in this area (most recent >"Day Lincoln was Shot" (TNT)and "Love Letter" (Hallmark Hall of Fame). >Another of my friends has worked as a casting coordinator for "good >civilians" --people who know the period, have the correct clothing & >accessories, women are all corseted--as opposed to the "regular reenactors" >(men generally can't get too bad since they are in uniform, but a lot of >women are only in the hobby to follow the guys and do no research and look >awful) and "street extras" who wear what the production company provides >(often very ill-fitting, poorly made and totally incorrect) and you can tell >the different groups on screen by the clothing and manner. I also have other >male friends who are often involved in extra casting who know men's clothing, >but not women's and have hired some awful looking women (they just *assume* >the women also do research in what they wear) and they have promised a >certain number of bodies. When my friend (the costume asst) is working, she >will try to cover up incorrect clothing, change bonnets/hats, etc., ones more >correct and age suitable, try to get the worst ones stuck way in the back >(but the farbs always want to be in front). My friends have loaned our own >extra bits to try to rectify some of the mistakes--we always travel with lots >since since the production people never know exactly what they want the scene >to be and we may feel the need to change to something more appropriate. >Unfortunately, the one person you can never change is "the star" who has >their own designer with their own ideas of the period (no matter how >incorrect). Our joke for the field hospital scene in "Love Letter" was that >Jennifer Jason Leigh was frantically searching for a good costumer and >hairdresser (or she should have been!). > I don't know the budget details, except that lots of money is spent on >some of the totally inappropriate things the stars wear. While attending the >props sale for "Lincoln", I looked at the clothing they were selling just for >a laugh--these were all made for the production, then later sold. They did >have corsets--made from the Past Patterns pattern--although only minimally >boned and that was plastic boning. The "bonnets" (I hesitate to call them >that) were these very strange bits of eyelet (yes) and other trims, none with >the correct shape--and of course the 1830s felt hat blanks that had been >trimmed (southern women never had a new bonnet in 20 years and never thought >about cutting down the old shape). Of the newly made women's dresses, there >were only one or two that were halfway decent -- very plain and being sold >for hundreds of dollars. For "Love Letter" some of the costumes (but >obviously not the stars) came from Angels in London. > As for the hairstylists, these are usually hired from the locals, so again, >usually have no knowledge of the period. The head hairstylist on "Love >Letter" insisted that everyone's hair be plastered and greased down so as to >better show off the ringlets on the star. > Anyway, the gest of this whole thing is that it was very interesting to >watch "Hunley" to see just how bad the women's clothing was since my friend >did not work in costuming (she worked in another area) where she could try to >correct/hide some of the things. And they were just as awful as expected--the >great uncorseted, incorrectly beheaded. Actually I think I did see the >correct shape of one bonnet hiding behind a gentleman's head. But mostly, it >was awful. > So why do we keep doing this? It's long days for little pay, very >early and/or very late hours. I kept relating to the extras in the rainy >parade scene in "Hunley" (been there, done that). We gripe and moan and >complain about all the inaccuracies. But for just coming around every few >years, it's a way to spend hours and days with friends and have some >memories--and then later try to see if you can see yourself on film (I know >I'm in that scene somewhere). Occasionally we can get historical inaccuracies >changed--but in the end--"it's Hollywood, not History" And the hope that one >day a film will be done correctly--both historically and clothing wise. > Sorry for rambling--it's just one of my pet peeves, from all >perspectives, seeing it on TV or film, working as an extra, and knowing what >my friend who works as an "insider" has to put up with since she has the >knowledge but not the clout to do it correctly. > Charlene > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 20:41:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA28605 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:41:03 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17195; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:53:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA04092 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:51:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA04080 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:51:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from c59303a ([24.4.53.172]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990714015124.GHDW25160.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@c59303a> for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:51:24 -0700 Message-ID: <00af01becd9b$58a0a2e0$ac350418@mckiny1.tx.home.com> From: "Franchesca Havas" To: References: <199907140124.SAA10160@smtp6.jps.net> Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Hunley on TNT (Long) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:42:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" I must agree. We are not here to tear down a movie for their lack of whatever. We are here to actually discuss history of dress and how to reconstruct it for ourselves or something like that I think..... Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas motto: Numquam scribae ridente fide ----- Original Message ----- From: R.L. Shep To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 8:24 PM Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Hunley on TNT (Long) : : -Poster: "R.L. Shep" : : I am afraid that I consider much of this posting *totally : inappropiate*...... : ~!~ R.L.Shep : http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks : : ---------- : >From: ArcadiaCB@aol.com : >To: h-costume@indra.com : >Subject: H-COST: Re: Hunley on TNT (Long) : >Date: Tue, Jul 13, 1999, 5:14 PM : > : : > : >-Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com : > : >Have to throw in my $.02 on this. Previous comments are my sentiments : >exactly. It was very interesting to watch this production. I have a _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 21:21:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA29251 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:21:26 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA21355; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:33:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA09624 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:31:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA09610 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:31:23 -0600 (MDT) From: ArcadiaCB@aol.com Received: from ArcadiaCB@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6IOWa25600 (3949) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:30:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:30:04 EDT Subject: H-COST: Apology To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com My apology to all. The prior comments just struck a note on a subject of particular interest to me I should have written the note to air my $.02 then deleted it. Sorry to have offended anyone. Now I'll just slink off. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 21:28:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA29276 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:28:44 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22013; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:40:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA10540 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:38:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zeus.directcon.net (root@zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA10522 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:38:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r4p44.directcon.net [206.170.184.93]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA10229 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907140238.TAA10229@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: H-COST: Apology Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson At 10:30 PM 7/13/99 EDT, you wrote: > >-Poster: ArcadiaCB@aol.com > >My apology to all. And mine, too. I realized after posting that I should have replied privately. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 21:29:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA29283 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:29:40 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22239; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:42:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA10733 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:40:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.pacifier.com (root@mail1.pacifier.com [199.2.117.164]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA10726 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:40:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pacifier.com (ip5.pdx4.pacifier.com [216.65.146.5]) by mail1.pacifier.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA32029 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378BF863.B37DF90E@pacifier.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:39:31 -0700 From: Erin Gault X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Grommet Setters??? References: <2df5de66.24bc1ce2@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Erin Gault I bought a grommet setter of that size at a hardware store. Not all stores stock that small of a size though, so you may have to look around. I think I paid about $15.00. It is fairly heavy duty and is not a gun-type that you find at fabric stores. Another place you might check is a store that makes items for boats using canvas. I have actually had them grommet a corset for me when I didn't have time. I'm sure they can at least order the supplies to do it yourself. Erin AnnoraK@aol.com wrote: > -Poster: AnnoraK@aol.com > > In keeping with a recent thread . . . > > In conjunction with my first foray into corsetry, I am shopping for the > aforementioned grommet setter. I know that Greenberg & Hammer is the best > place for grommets, but I can't seem to get a catalog out of them, tho I've > asked twice in the past six months. So, I'm going elsewhere for these. My > problem is the setter. The only size 00 setter that I can find (either > online or in a catalog) is AlterYears' $40 one. Since I don't know how often > I'm going to be using this beast, I really don't feel like spending that much > on one. Do any of the other grommet sources (Richard the Thread, etc.) sell > setters to go with them? Or is there anywhere in the DC Metro area where I > can pick one up? > > Thanx! > Jen > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 22:55:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA30762 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:55:34 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01680; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:07:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA06493 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:05:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA06453 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:05:06 -0600 (MDT) From: RobesOf@aol.com Received: from RobesOf@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6PYa016332 (14458) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:04:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9865185e.24bd6640@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:04:16 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Grommet Setters??? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com << I bought a grommet setter of that size at a hardware store. Not all stores stock that small of a size though, so you may have to look around. I think I paid about $15.00. It is fairly heavy duty and is not a gun-type that you find at fabric stores. Another place you might check is a store that makes items for boats using canvas. I have actually had them grommet a corset for me when I didn't have time. I'm sure they can at least order the supplies to do it yourself. Good idea, Erin! I forgot about canvas suppliers carrying grommets. You might try Beacon Fabrics (a supplier of boating canvas, etc.) I'm not sure how small their sizes go, but they are in the $15 - $20 range for a kit. They have a web site Beacon Fabric and Notions - Catalog Sales - Your Sewing Resource! You can send an email to receive their catalog. Good luck! Erica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 13 23:32:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA31423 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:32:30 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA05530; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:45:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA21389 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:43:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mongoose.slip.net (mongoose.slip.net [207.171.193.14]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA21209 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:43:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [207.171.230.142] (helo=default) by mongoose.slip.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #4) id 114Gt6-0000iB-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:43:20 -0700 X-Sender: cjcannon@pop.slip.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:43:27 -0700 To: h-costume@indra.com From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Subject: Re: H-COST: Grommet Setters??? In-Reply-To: <9865185e.24bd6640@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" My little anvil/grommet setter came from Tandy Leather. It was less than $20. Carol _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 03:45:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA01138 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 03:45:04 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA21168; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 02:59:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id CAA20167 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 02:57:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.6.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id CAA20069 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 02:57:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) id <01JDJU37I7LS0085FM@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:02:20 BST Received: from mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk (mdx-ref1.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.57.8]) by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) with ESMTP id <01JDJU2WNBKS007FP1@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:01:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from MDX-REF1/SpoolDir by mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk (Mercury 1.32); Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:56:14 +1100 Received: from SpoolDir by MDX-REF1 (Mercury 1.32); Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:56:04 +1100 Received: from bg_lib_07475 (158.94.53.126) by mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk (Mercury 1.32); Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:56:02 +1100 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:56:02 +0000 (GMT) From: teddy1 Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #430 In-reply-to: <199907140015.SAA20075@indra.com> To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Message-id: <889D5FA6A5E@mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk> Organization: Middlesex University MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: teddy1 Hi Dave, > - -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" > > <> www.soft.net.uk/wysewords/tewkesbu.htm > > <> > The opening page is up . I hope to have gallery one up by midnight. > If you discover any problems please let me know; I hastened to check this out as I hoped to spot myself in one of the pictures. No luck.... to my surprize, however, in the first picture in Gallery one has my other half dead centre. I'd recognizae that mitre and chasuble anywhere! > Every time I go to Tewkesbury the sun shines and I get badly > sunburnt. So bear with me thru my suffering. thanks Dave Surely you didn't get sunburn *last* year - it was the Tewkesbury "Rainy-Season" that weekend! The pictures look great - even if I do have to print them out (B&W) to see them clearly as our tech people reset all our graphics to "16 colour" every time we have an upgrade, and then don't get 'round to resetting them until just before the next upgrade.... Teddy (Trustworthy Evil-Bunny of Destiny, part-time Knave and Creature of air and darkness, apparently!) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 05:24:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA02708 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:24:05 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA25669; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:38:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id EAA18445 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:36:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [195.194.177.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id EAA18112 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:36:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from csv6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA17764.; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:40:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-Message_Server by csv6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:35:10 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:34:57 +0100 From: "KATE M BUNTING" To: Subject: H-COST: "Aristocrats" on BBC1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id FAA02708 Status: O -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" Any UK list members watching this series? (It's about the daughters of the Duke of Richmond from the 1740s onwards.) I'm no expert on 18th cent. fashions but the general "look" seems excellent to me - but did styles really change so little between the 1740s and 1760s? All the ladies have worn gowns with saque (sp?) backs and wide-brimmed hats throughout, with little sense of developing fashions so far. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 05:40:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA02988 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:40:49 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA26421; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:54:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id EAA10915 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:52:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from RBAD33.RBACRXCLU.BAS.ROCHE.COM (mail-external-basel.bas.roche.com [196.3.50.190]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id EAA10705 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 04:52:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com (rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com [145.245.211.139]) by Roche.COM (PMDF V5.2-31 #33472) with ESMTP id <01JDJZYB7BW69DH88I@Roche.COM> for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:50:31 +0200 Received: by rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <3YW1Z0W5>; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:50:28 +0200 Content-return: allowed Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:50:27 +0200 From: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Subject: RE: H-COST: "Aristocrats" on BBC1 To: "'h-costume@indra.com'" Message-id: <431EB483DFB4D111A2D50000F843C5C401009E2F@RWEMSEM2> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" I'm not sure about the "home fashions" but court fashion changed very little. So far I'm really enjoying the series. There was an interesting article in the telegraph last weekend about Louisa's house. It is still as she left it, a succession of males with no time to redecorate meant that the interiors were left untouched but sadly uncared for. At the time of filming it was being renovated otherwise they would have used it for the filming. I think it is now owned but the Irish Government. Rachel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 06:00:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05676 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:00:28 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA27444; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:14:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id FAA06869 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:12:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hpamgaac.compuserve.com (ah-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.217.157]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id FAA06498 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:12:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpamgaac.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id HAA21626 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:11:29 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: "Aristocrats" on BBC1 To: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907140711_MC2-7CEC-BC3@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id GAA05676 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson Good series I wondered too about the uniformity of the dresses ? Not my period though ! What did you think of the cloak (not sure which sister but she too Sarah (/) and the baby back to bruv Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 06:05:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA10024 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:05:44 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA27741; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:20:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id FAA13576 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:18:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from RBAD59.RBACRXCLU.BAS.ROCHE.COM (gw.bas.roche.com [196.3.50.241]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id FAA13390 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:17:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com (rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com [145.245.211.139]) by Roche.COM (PMDF V5.2-31 #33472) with ESMTP id <01JDK0WAIZ0K9DH88I@Roche.COM> for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:17:08 +0200 Received: by rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <3YW15ATX>; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:17:05 +0200 Content-return: allowed Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:16:35 +0200 From: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Subject: RE: H-COST: "Aristocrats" on BBC1 To: "'h-costume@indra.com'" Message-id: <431EB483DFB4D111A2D50000F843C5C401009E30@RWEMSEM2> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Wasn't it Louisa, the one with the husband that does what he's told. Haven't got a clue whether it was period or not but I would love to make one it looked fantastic. I'm going to have to go back over the video and make a sketch of it. Rachel Roche Products Limited 40 Broadwater Road Welwyn Garden City Hertfordshire AL7 3AY Tel: 01707 366441 Registration Number 100674 > -----Original Message----- > From: Melanie Wilson [SMTP:MelanieWilson@compuserve.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 12:11 PM > To: INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: "Aristocrats" on BBC1 > > > -Poster: Melanie Wilson > > Good series I wondered too about the uniformity of the dresses ? > > Not my period though ! > > What did you think of the cloak (not sure which sister but she too Sarah > (/) and the baby back to bruv > > Mel > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 06:28:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA29315 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:28:57 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA29125; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:43:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id FAA12313 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:41:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id FAA12129 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:40:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from kayherb@juno.com) by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EFGZ54G9; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:40:18 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: 18th century clothes Message-ID: <19990709.172151.5231.0.kayherb@juno.com> References: <4.1.19990713201906.0096d780@pop.idsi.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,7-10 From: "Kathryn L. Herb" Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:40:18 EDT Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" Chantal, I like Janice Ryan's stays pattern myself. If you want to have someone else do yours, contact Deb Jarrett Peterson at 610-287-6939. She does very good work by mail with your measurements, in a variety of styles, and the at best prices I've seen yet. She loves to talk 18c clothing, so don't hesitate to ask her questions or for advice if you contact her. (Usual disclaimer -- just know her work, her research and her knowledge!) Kay Herb kayherb@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 07:30:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA30318 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:30:44 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA04958; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:44:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id GAA18863 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:42:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spamgaad.compuserve.com (as-img-4.compuserve.com [149.174.217.147]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id GAA18770 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:42:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spamgaad.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.1) id IAA03665 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:41:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:41:32 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Costume books on eBay To: LIST historic costume Message-ID: <199907140841_MC2-7CFD-91AD@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id HAA30318 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson Costume in Pictures by Phillis Cunnington 150 illustrations of contempory artists from the Middle ages to the 20th C. Ex-lib PB in Good condition http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=131478470 English Costume of the 17th Century by Iris Brooke Shows the evolution of costume during this century, Includes many of Iris Brookes excellent drawings, both line and coloured, and a consise easy to understand description of each item. Iris Brooke as ever covers not only garments, but Hair styles and headwear. Ex lib HB in VG condition http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=131478325 English Costume of the Early Middle Ages by Iris Brooke Shows the evolution of costume during the 10th to 13th centuries, Includes many of Iris Brookes excellent drawings, both line and coloured, and a consise easy to understand description of each item. Iris Brooke as ever covers not only garments, but Hair styles and headwear. Ex lib HB in VG condition, probable repair to spine. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=131478152 English Costume of the Later Middle Ages by Iris Brooke Shows the evolution of costume during the 14th and 15th centuries, Includes many of Iris Brookes excellent drawings, both line and coloured, and a consise easy to understand description of each item. Iris Brooke as ever covers not only garments, but Hair styles and headwear. Ex lib HB in VG condition, with slightly damaged dust wrapper. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=131477937 Dress & Undress by Iris Brooke Shows the evolution of costume 1660-1800, Includes many of Iris Brookes excellent drawings, both line and coloured, and a consise easy to understand description of each item. Iris Brooke as ever covers not only garments, but Hair styles and headwear. She goes on to explain the terms dress and undress in their period contexts Ex lib HB in VG condition. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=131477747 Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 08:57:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA31783 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:57:18 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA12291; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:10:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA15065 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:09:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA15045 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:08:59 -0600 (MDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6PSEa18054 (4187) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:08:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <256e7241.24bdf3d3@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:08:19 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Hunley on TNT (Long) To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 7/13/99 8:17:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ArcadiaCB@aol.com writes: << Sorry for rambling--it's just one of my pet peeves, from all perspectives, seeing it on TV or film, working as an extra, and knowing what my friend who works as an "insider" has to put up with since she has the knowledge but not the clout to do it correctly. >> Don't apologize, my Dear; I've never read a better description of what goes on in cheap, fast, made-for TV, period movies. I hate working on them but I get $20 an hour & those hours add up big time. Just to make those of you in shock feel a little better........ On the big films I've worked on like "Interview with the Vampire" & "Last of the Mohicans", we made 60% of the extras and correctly [corsets, cut]. My favorite job was "Mohicans" where I got to develop a woman's jacket from original sources, and then make 15 of them with variations [cuffs or ruffles or nothing on the sleeve....button, or hook & eye or lace down CF...etc.] from incredible fabrics. Of course they had budget budget budget & time time time....but it can be done right & be a total joy to work on some films. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 09:03:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA31937 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:03:53 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA13379; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:17:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA18590 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:16:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA18523 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:16:02 -0600 (MDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6XSUa04446 (4187) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9ce24dc2.24bdf568@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:15:04 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Hunley on TNT (Long) To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 7/13/99 9:52:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ches@io.com writes: << I must agree. We are not here to tear down a movie for their lack of whatever. We are here to actually discuss history of dress and how to reconstruct it for ourselves or something like that I think..... >> I don't think any of her statements will hurt anybody. Lighten up...her description is exactly what I've been through a number of times. It sounds cynical but is very accurate. It's really no worse than posting about how awful things look....now we know why. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 11:59:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29312 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:59:00 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10651; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:12:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA23433 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:10:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.pacifier.com (root@smtp.pacifier.com [199.2.117.96]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA23377 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:10:10 -0600 (MDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com Received: from grendal2 (ip84.van21.pacifier.com [216.65.138.84]) by smtp.pacifier.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA12535 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907141710.KAA12535@smtp.pacifier.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:11:38 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Ladies' trousers, 12thC Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199907132054.QAA03248@mail-out-3.tiac.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > A friend just got back from France and she claims to have seen a bas relief > in a Toulouse church showing two women with trousers under their dresses. > She said the women were wearing somewhat loose, mid-calf dresses with round > necklines and elbow length sleeves; under this they were wearing ankle > length trousers with seams up the fronts of the legs. Haven't seen anything like this. How does she know they were women? What was the context (which in church reliefs are especially important because sometimes they were done to show some wierd iconography like "women of elsewhere" or "women who think they are men and should be burned.")? Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 13:44:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00995 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:44:12 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29716; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:56:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA00353 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:54:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pop.idsi.net (root@pop.idsi.net [208.195.228.22]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA00298 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:54:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from chantal (14-ta05wf.idsi.net [208.201.30.132]) by pop.idsi.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id OAA30512 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:54:07 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.19990714145653.00970480@pop.idsi.net> X-Sender: chanty@pop.idsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:57:22 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Chantal Pecourt Subject: Re: H-COST: 18th century clothes In-Reply-To: <19990709.172151.5231.0.kayherb@juno.com> References: <4.1.19990713201906.0096d780@pop.idsi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Chantal Pecourt Hello Thanks for the info. Where can one get Janice Ryan's patterns? Does Deb Jarrett have email? Thank you! Chantal At 07:40 AM 7/14/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" > >Chantal, > >I like Janice Ryan's stays pattern myself. If you want to have someone >else do yours, contact Deb Jarrett Peterson at 610-287-6939. She does >very good work by mail with your measurements, in a variety of styles, >and the at best prices I've seen yet. She loves to talk 18c clothing, so >don't hesitate to ask her questions or for advice if you contact her. >(Usual disclaimer -- just know her work, her research and her knowledge!) > >Kay Herb >kayherb@juno.com > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 14:24:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01644 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:24:56 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05305; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:36:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA27625 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:25:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.pacifier.com (root@smtp.pacifier.com [199.2.117.96]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA27546 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:24:54 -0600 (MDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com Received: from grendal2 (ip84.van21.pacifier.com [216.65.138.84]) by smtp.pacifier.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA09144 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907141724.KAA09144@smtp.pacifier.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:26:22 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: H-COST: "Aristocrats" on BBC1 Priority: normal In-reply-to: <431EB483DFB4D111A2D50000F843C5C401009E30@RWEMSEM2> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > Wasn't it Louisa, the one with the husband that does what he's told. > Haven't got a clue whether it was period or not but I would love to make one > it looked fantastic. I'm going to have to go back over the video and make a > sketch of it. There is a book about the series which shows many costume details, sketches and the like. (Unfortunately, I can't seem to find it this morning. I picked it up in England at a bookstore in one of the train stations.) Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 17:17:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04532 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:17:14 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02132; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:30:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA10506 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:28:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA10494 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:28:47 -0600 (MDT) From: Schmitt100@aol.com Received: from Schmitt100@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id uENEa01259 (8079) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:27:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1a8b8d5e.24be68d0@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:27:28 EDT Subject: H-COST: Eliz. footwear? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Schmitt100@aol.com I am in the process of working on my hubby's outfit for Eliz. England. We are mid - to - upper middle class. The footwear vendors at our local Renn Faire tend towards the moccasin-type shoe/boot. This does not feel right to me. What would be appropriate footwear for him? Where would I be able to purchase? ********************** Rebecca Schmitt So many books, so little time We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking as we used when we created them. -Albert Einstein schmitt100@aol.com ********************** _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 17:25:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04688 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:25:34 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03180; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:38:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA12208 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:37:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA12174 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:36:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pilot.physics.adelaide.edu.au (muon [129.127.36.27]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id IAA18925 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:06:02 +0930 (CST) Received: by pilot.physics.adelaide.edu.au (5.61+IDA+MU/UA-5.23) id AA10792; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:14:24 +0930 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:14:16 +0930 (CST) From: The Purple Elephant X-Sender: csmart@muon To: h-costume@indra.com Cc: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: "Aristocrats" on BBC1 In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: The Purple Elephant On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, KATE M BUNTING wrote: > > -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" > > Any UK list members watching this series? (It's about the daughters of the Duke of Richmond from the 1740s onwards.) I'm no expert on 18th cent. fashions but the general "look" seems excellent to me - but did styles really change so little between the 1740s and 1760s? All the ladies have worn gowns with saque (sp?) backs and wide-brimmed hats throughout, with little sense of developing fashions so far. > I haven't seen the series, but I ran across a book about it the other day and was flipping through. This isn't really my period, but I did notice that some of the skirts on the gowns were 'chevron-pleated' and I do recall Hunnisett saying that was a theatrical technique..... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claire F. Clarke "What is this world if, full of care, Physicist, writer, We have no time to stand and stare?" and non environmentally Robert Louis Stevenson friendly substance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 17:28:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04701 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:28:06 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03673; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:41:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA12817 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:39:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hpamgaad.compuserve.com (ah-img-4.compuserve.com [149.174.217.158]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA12761 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:39:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpamgaad.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id SAA18959 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:39:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:38:39 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Veiling To: LIST historic costume Message-ID: <199907141838_MC2-7D10-74D1@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id RAA04701 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson Anyone know of a supplier, preferably in the UK but mail order US would do Thanks Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 17:34:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04846 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:34:31 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04531; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:48:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA14127 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:46:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA14042 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:46:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA07323 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378D1389.42C31DDF@serv.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:47:37 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Veiling References: <199907141838_MC2-7D10-74D1@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > Anyone know of a supplier, preferably in the UK but mail order US would do I've never heard of a supplier for veiling. What do you mean by veiling? Can you get your hands on fine linen or silk. That would work. -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 17:49:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA05027 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:49:02 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06192; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:02:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA16948 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:00:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id RAA16919 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:00:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion (209-122-220-46.s300.tnt5.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com [209.122.220.46]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA12725 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:00:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000801bece4d$cc3e6f40$2edc7ad1@pavilion> From: "Andrea Gideon" To: "H-Costume" Subject: H-COST: Elizabethan Footwear Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:08:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BECE2C.42072540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BECE2C.42072540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My husband and I both got ours from Syke's Sutlering. They are hand made by Sarah Jasper and very authentic looking. http://users.aol.com/sykesutler/intro.html Andrea ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BECE2C.42072540 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Syke's Introduction.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Syke's Introduction.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://users.aol.com/sykesutler/intro.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://users.aol.com/sykesutler/intro.html Modified=E085FE554DCEBE0192 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BECE2C.42072540-- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 18:00:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA05225 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:00:27 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07000; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:09:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA18119 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:07:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id RAA18085 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:07:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from kayherb@juno.com) by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EFH9BE84; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:04:47 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: 18th century clothes Message-ID: <19990709.202801.5231.5.kayherb@juno.com> References: <4.1.19990713201906.0096d780@pop.idsi.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-7,9-56 From: "Kathryn L. Herb" Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:04:47 EDT Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" Well, nothin' like giving information without including half of it! Tidy's Storehouse (tidys@brandywine.com) carries J. P. Ryan as do other sutlers whose names I can't bring to mind at this second. Deb's e-mail is debpeterson@juno.com. Kay Herb kayherb@juno.com On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:57:22 -0400 Chantal Pecourt writes: > >-Poster: Chantal Pecourt > >Hello > Thanks for the info. Where can one get Janice Ryan's patterns? >Does Deb >Jarrett have email? > >Thank you! > > >Chantal > >At 07:40 AM 7/14/99 -0400, you wrote: >> >>-Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" >> >>Chantal, >> >>I like Janice Ryan's stays pattern myself. If you want to have >someone >>else do yours, contact Deb Jarrett Peterson at 610-287-6939. She >does >>very good work by mail with your measurements, in a variety of >styles, >>and the at best prices I've seen yet. She loves to talk 18c >clothing, so >>don't hesitate to ask her questions or for advice if you contact her. > >>(Usual disclaimer -- just know her work, her research and her >knowledge!) >> >>Kay Herb >>kayherb@juno.com >> >>___________________________________________________________________ >>Get the Internet just the way you want it. >>Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >>Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com >> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 20:23:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA07649 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:23:46 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA27795; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:35:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA23139 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:33:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA23119 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:33:48 -0600 (MDT) From: DzMzLzy@aol.com Received: from DzMzLzy@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6TXMa27648 (7811) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <80b66fc.24be9446@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:32:54 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: 18th century clothes To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: DzMzLzy@aol.com In a message dated 7/14/99 12:00:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, chanty@idsi.net writes: << Thanks for the info. Where can one get Janice Ryan's patterns? Does Deb Jarrett have email? >> Use any good search engine for sewing patterns and you can find them on the web. I don't know the URL, but the company name is J.P.Ryan Liz Gerds _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 22:01:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA09232 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:00:56 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08805; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:09:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA27169 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:07:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtpa.gateway.net (relayf.gateway.net [208.230.117.254]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id VAA27117 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:07:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer (1Cust152.tnt5.princess-anne.va.da.uu.net [208.253.234.152]) by smtpa.gateway.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA16992 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <01fb01bece6f$4c9e7f60$98eafdd0@oemcomputer> From: "Joel Thompson" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Ladies' trousers, 12thC Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:08:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id WAA09232 Status: O -Poster: "Joel Thompson" claims to have seen a bas relief in a Toulouse church showing two women with trousers under their dresses. She said the women were wearing somewhat loose, mid-calf dresses with round necklines and elbow length sleeves; under this they were wearing ankle length trousers with seams up the fronts of the legs. This sounds a lot like an illustration that I found several months ago. It's in "Historic Costume in Pictures" by Braun and Schneider, plate 13, the 11th century. It shows a Norman woman looking remarkably like the description Kristin gives, except the woman in the illustration is definitely wearing hosen. I had heretofore credited the picture to Victorian imagination, but perhaps there is some merit after all. Still, I would like to have more evidence that medieval women ever showed their legs, whether wearing hosen, trousers, or whatever. Waiting for more..... Linda Rice _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 14 23:20:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA10557 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:20:26 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA17963; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:31:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA25035 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:29:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vega.utulsa.edu (vega.utulsa.edu [129.244.1.81]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA24987 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:29:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from utulsa.edu (Rppp2-52.net.utulsa.edu) by vega.utulsa.edu (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.03.02.17.58.p5) with ESMTP id <0FEW00IQR9JOZ1@vega.utulsa.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:23:51 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:28:08 -0500 From: Marc Carlson Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan Footwear To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <378D6358.47950942@utulsa.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <199907142307.RAA18155@indra.com> Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Marc Carlson > From: Schmitt100@aol.com > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:27:28 EDT > Subject: H-COST: Eliz. footwear? > > - -Poster: Schmitt100@aol.com > > I am in the process of working on my hubby's outfit for Eliz. England. We are > mid - to - upper middle class. The footwear vendors at our local Renn Faire > tend towards the moccasin-type shoe/boot. This does not feel right to me. > What would be appropriate footwear for him? Where would I be able to > purchase? Um, no, a moccasin-type anything is not correct for any sort of Elizabethan shoe. If you go to the website that Andrea suggested and take a look at the men's shoe they have there, and picture that with no heel, you can see one of the two major popular styles. The other is a more of a slipper looking thing. I don't know of anyone who makes them for sale, but I suspect that there must be someone. If you are interested in making them yourself, let me know and I'll give you what help I can. (BTW, for the record, the designs for Tudor shoes at "http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/carlson/SHOEHOME.HTM" are mostly flawed. The _Mary Rose_ shoe is ok, and the "Lady's Elizabethan shoe" is barely ok (the sole is the wrong shape). I am informed by those who know that the toggle latched shoe is "pure crap". Unfortunately, I don't have anything to replace them with at the moment. I am planning on going to London in the Fall to get a better idea of what these should look like.) Marc Carlson marc-carlson@utulsa.edu _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 04:41:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA14246 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 04:41:50 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA07038; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 03:54:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id DAA04386 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 03:52:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from RBAD33.RBACRXCLU.BAS.ROCHE.COM (mail-external-basel.bas.roche.com [196.3.50.190]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id DAA04140 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 03:52:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com (rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com [145.245.211.139]) by Roche.COM (PMDF V5.2-31 #33472) with ESMTP id <01JDLC7S0ZTS9DHRM7@Roche.COM> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:51:46 +0200 Received: by rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <378N8S5J>; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:51:42 +0200 Content-return: allowed Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:51:42 +0200 From: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Subject: H-COST: Boning suppliers To: "Historic Costume List (E-mail)" Message-id: <431EB483DFB4D111A2D50000F843C5C401009E37@RWEMSEM2> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sensitivity: Company-Confidential Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" I am looking for a supplier of boning. I am due to start work on an Elizabethan bodice and farthingale and require boning for both. I would prefer this supplier to be in the UK or if elsewhere to accept credit cards. Thanks Rachel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 05:35:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA15033 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:35:36 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA09455; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 04:48:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id EAA20220 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 04:46:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.6.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id EAA19966 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 04:46:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) id <01JDLC5LNNU8008F51@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:51:42 BST Received: from mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk (mdx-ref1.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.57.8]) by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) with ESMTP id <01JDLC520LF2008D5N@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:49:34 +0100 (BST) Received: from MDX-REF1/SpoolDir by mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk (Mercury 1.32); Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:44:04 +1100 Received: from SpoolDir by MDX-REF1 (Mercury 1.32); Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:43:55 +1100 Received: from bg_lib_07475 (158.94.53.126) by mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk (Mercury 1.32); Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:43:50 +1100 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:43:49 +0000 (GMT) From: teddy1 Subject: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Message-id: <8A3A3145D04@mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk> Organization: Middlesex University MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: teddy1 Hello listmembers, I'm doing a "collective knowledge" question here... At the Tewkesbury battle-reenactment last weekend, i was drawn to a traders' stall that had a garment on display that was made from a beautiful purple silk brocade. The garment in question was the top half of a "sideless-surcote" When the stallholder explained that this was all she could make out of the remnant she had used I asked what she was going to use for the skirts and she told me that there *were* no skirts to go with it. She said she had made several of these garments to be worn over fitted gowns and that there were both skirted and unskirted versions of this garment. This doesn't sound right to me. I don't recall ever seeing a picture/diagram/painting/illo that showed an unskirted version of these surcotes... or have I seen them and just assumed the skirts that showed below them were the surcote rather than the skirts of the gown beneath? Anyone out there care to comment. The trader didn't have any of her sources with ehr and was unable to give me details without them, and I only ever see her at this annual event, so am unlikely to get any further by that route. Puzzled Teddy (Trustworthy Evil-Bunny of Destiny, part-time Knave and Creature of air and darkness, apparently!) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 06:22:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA06356 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:22:10 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA12300; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:35:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id FAA26642 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:33:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Mail.austin.rr.com (sm2.texas.rr.com [24.93.35.55]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id FAA26453 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 05:33:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cs9363-30.austin.rr.com ([24.93.63.30]) by Mail.austin.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1875.185.18); Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:29:25 -0500 From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:27:51 GMT Organization: The Corner of my Desk Message-ID: <3793bf26.344475431@smtp-server.austin.rr.com> References: <8A3A3145D04@mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <8A3A3145D04@mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id GAA06356 Status: O -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:43:49 +0000 (GMT), teddy1 wrote: >The garment in question was the top half of a "sideless-surcote" >When the stallholder explained that this was all she could make >out of the remnant she had used I asked what she was going to >use for the skirts and she told me that there *were* no skirts to go >with it. She said she had made several of these garments to be >worn over fitted gowns and that there were both skirted and >unskirted versions of this garment. Wow. I've *never*ever* heard this one before. Seriously! Erm. It sounds as though she's taking the fossilized court versions of the sideless surcote over-literally. This type are shown with the skirts pleated/gathered into the supporting band around the hips. I trust this was the type she had for sale? (pause here, while I rush to my bookshelf and dig for references) This seems to be the final form of the sideless surcote just before it went out of fashion for everything besides ceremonial court wear. Having made this type once or twice, I can see where she got confused, especially if she was using only redrawings and dodgy 19th and 20th c. theatrical costume texts for reference. Racinet, for one infamous example. (which I have, but is -deservedly- in storage for the time being) In all my research, I have *never* seen anything that could be *reliably* construed as a sidless-surcote-bodice-thing-without-skirts. Ever. Maybe some poor redrawings from victorian costume books, which may have the girdle showing where it never does in primary source art, or have the skirts shown as the same colour as the undergown. (Racinet, again, comes to mind. Blame the colourists, if you must. I do.) Did she perhaps mention where she found this gem of knowledge? If it is indeed true (which I find *extremely* doubtful as I am currently researching this period in depth and have seen nothing like this in the artwork I have been studying) I would love to know what sort of documentation she has based it on. New sources are always welcome. OTOH, it could be another reenactor-myth. "so-and-so said this was done, so it was done"... I have had to steer around enough of those in my time. :P Or it could possibly be a cheap theatre trick (a little budget extender learnt in school, perhaps?) to double the scenes got from one costume gown? I can see this used by a small repertory theatre group or a low-budget school Shakespeare production. Margery, wondering about this now *quizzical* ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~There is no spoon~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ {*to reply take "spambegone" from my reply-to address*} _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 07:11:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25332 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:11:42 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA15152; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:24:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id GAA17237 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:22:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [209.48.224.31]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id GAA17219 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:22:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [209.48.224.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA08427 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:22:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:22:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Kevin & Mara Riley To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Grommet Setters??? In-Reply-To: <378BF863.B37DF90E@pacifier.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Kevin & Mara Riley What period is your corset? Grommets aren't period for the 1700s, so you might not need them. > AnnoraK@aol.com wrote: > > > -Poster: AnnoraK@aol.com > > > > In keeping with a recent thread . . . > > > > In conjunction with my first foray into corsetry, I am shopping for the > > aforementioned grommet setter. I know that Greenberg & Hammer is the best > > place for grommets, but I can't seem to get a catalog out of them, tho I've > > asked twice in the past six months. So, I'm going elsewhere for these. My > > problem is the setter. The only size 00 setter that I can find (either > > online or in a catalog) is AlterYears' $40 one. Since I don't know how often > > I'm going to be using this beast, I really don't feel like spending that much > > on one. Do any of the other grommet sources (Richard the Thread, etc.) sell > > setters to go with them? Or is there anywhere in the DC Metro area where I > > can pick one up? > > > > Thanx! > > Jen > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 07:29:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25525 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:29:23 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA16227; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:42:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id GAA22669 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:40:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [209.48.224.31]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id GAA22635 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:40:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [209.48.224.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA10800 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:40:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:40:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Kevin & Mara Riley To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: 18th century clothes In-Reply-To: <19990709.202801.5231.5.kayherb@juno.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Kevin & Mara Riley James Townsends carries J. P. Ryan's patterns: http://www.jastown.com/ Cheers, Mara > >-Poster: Chantal Pecourt > > > >Hello > > Thanks for the info. Where can one get Janice Ryan's patterns? > >Does Deb > >Jarrett have email? > > > >Thank you! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 08:42:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA20976 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:42:10 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22798; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:54:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA13229 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:52:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from anarchy.io.com (anarchy.io.com [199.170.88.101]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA13211 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:52:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dragon (as2-dialup-229.io.com [206.224.82.229]) by anarchy.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA31475 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:52:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199907151352.IAA31475@anarchy.io.com> From: "Amanda Reeves" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Veiling Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:55:23 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Amanda Reeves" I'm a belly dancer and there are a lot of suppliers for veils. Is this what you are looking for? If so, I'm happy to send you some web sites. Amanda ---------- > From: Melanie Wilson > To: LIST historic costume > Subject: H-COST: Veiling > Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 5:38 PM > > > -Poster: Melanie Wilson > > Anyone know of a supplier, preferably in the UK but mail order US would do > > Thanks > > Mel > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 08:46:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA21008 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:46:35 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA23377; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:59:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA14870 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:57:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mailhost.neaccess.net (mailhost.neaccess.net [204.255.214.236]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA14848 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:57:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer (camb0799.capecod.net [209.244.240.37]) by mailhost.neaccess.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id JAA13559 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:57:48 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990715095726.00d3ec44@neaccess.net> X-Sender: kenton@neaccess.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:57:26 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Donna Kenton Subject: Re: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question In-Reply-To: <3793bf26.344475431@smtp-server.austin.rr.com> References: <8A3A3145D04@mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk> <8A3A3145D04@mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Donna Kenton At 11:27 AM 7/15/99 GMT, you wrote: > >-Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) > >On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:43:49 +0000 (GMT), teddy1 >wrote: > >>The garment in question was the top half of a "sideless-surcote" >>When the stallholder explained that this was all she could make >>out of the remnant she had used I asked what she was going to >>use for the skirts and she told me that there *were* no skirts to go >>with it. She said she had made several of these garments to be >>worn over fitted gowns and that there were both skirted and >>unskirted versions of this garment. > >Wow. I've *never*ever* heard this one before. Seriously! > >Erm. It sounds as though she's taking the fossilized court versions >of the sideless surcote over-literally. This type are shown with the >skirts pleated/gathered into the supporting band around the hips. I >trust this was the type she had for sale? It's also possible that she was using an idea taken from a modern pattern. I've seen costuming patterns -- albeit BAD ones! -- where the "fitted bodice" was merely a vest worn over a chemise. I can see how someone might stretch that idea to another style to create the illusion. Donna Kenton _______________________________________________________ Visit my web page at http://www.dabbler.com! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 10:02:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16613 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:02:56 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03777; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:15:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA03792 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:13:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA03759 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:13:32 -0600 (MDT) From: KLWasden@aol.com Received: from KLWasden@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6ZNUa23585 (4263) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:12:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <7a4eb8e6.24bf544d@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:12:13 EDT Subject: H-COST: medieval clothing patterns To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: KLWasden@aol.com Does anyone have any information regarding online or printed catalogs for medieval clothing and/or patterns? Thanks, Kevin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 10:32:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA17103 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:32:27 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08876; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:45:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA10888 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:43:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m8.boston.juno.com (m8.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.196]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA10877; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:43:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EFK2A8EM; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:40:49 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com Cc: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question Message-ID: <19990715.072125.4783.4.cley@juno.com> References: <8A3A3145D04@mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-4,7-16 From: cynthia j ley Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:40:49 EDT Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: cynthia j ley Re: Unskirted surcoats: That doesn't sound right to me either--although I am just a novice costumer. :-) The ladies' version as far as I know always has a skirt, although it isn't usually a separate piece. A ladies surcoat is a sort of shoulder to floor affair. Men wore fighting surcoats, and even these had a shorter skirt on them. I think I'm more puzzled than you are. Arlys ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 10:36:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA17122 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:36:27 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09725; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:49:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA11869 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:47:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA11791 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:46:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26700 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378E02CE.E0A1F94F@serv.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:48:30 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question References: <8A3A3145D04@mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover Well, I "do" 14th century and from all my research (granted, there's always more research to do) I have never seen such a thing. The only thing it reminds me of are some of those costuming books that show some kind of vesty thing worn with bliauts. And I seriously doubt the accuracy of those too. Cynthia > The garment in question was the top half of a "sideless-surcote" > When the stallholder explained that this was all she could make > out of the remnant she had used I asked what she was going to > use for the skirts and she told me that there *were* no skirts to go > with it. -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 11:56:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA18432 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:56:22 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22422; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:08:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA00519 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:06:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA00268 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:06:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.98 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:05:37 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: medieval clothing patterns Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:56:28 -0400 Message-ID: <000201becee5$6ac858a0$d40bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-Reply-To: <7a4eb8e6.24bf544d@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Medieval patterns are on-line at http:www.alteryears.com, http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/treelee/147/patterns.htm, and http://www.richardthethread.com. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of KLWasden@aol.com > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 11:12 AM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: medieval clothing patterns > > > > -Poster: KLWasden@aol.com > > Does anyone have any information regarding online or printed > catalogs for > medieval clothing and/or patterns? > > Thanks, > Kevin > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 12:11:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18773 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:11:15 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24486; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:23:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA03981 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:21:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA03950 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:20:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28800 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378E18DA.3714AAE0@serv.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:22:35 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval clothing patterns References: <7a4eb8e6.24bf544d@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover These are my SCA merchants bookmarks http://www.historicenterprises.com./black_swan/ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/5459/bliaut.html http://www.medievalwares.com/ http://www.datasys.net/polish/merchantsrow.html http://www.heavymetalinc.com/ http://www.historicenterprises.com/swanlion/ http://www.extremezone.com/~medieval/products.htm http://www.acadiacom.net/bendaw/ http://www.concentric.net/~Stircraz/linkpage.html http://www.pillagedvillage.com/pillagedvillage/pvonline.cgi/TrimMain http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/merchants/ > Does anyone have any information regarding online or printed catalogs for > medieval clothing and/or patterns? -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 12:36:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19139 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:36:22 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28737; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:46:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA09157 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:44:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mb05.swip.net (mb05.swip.net [193.12.122.209]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA09066 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:44:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nina (dialup170-4-39.swipnet.se [130.244.170.231]) by mb05.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA24523 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:44:03 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990715194443.00878100@olga.swip.net> X-Sender: mo25111@olga.swip.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:44:43 +0200 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Nina Marcks v W Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval clothing patterns In-Reply-To: <7a4eb8e6.24bf544d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Nina Marcks v W Harper House has mediaval patterns among a lot of other patterns for all historical costumes. They can be found on www.longago.com I have just learned that Harper House now has a completly new owner and I have got very quick answers via e-mail on all my questions. Nina in Sweden At 11:12 1999-07-15 EDT, you wrote: > >-Poster: KLWasden@aol.com > >Does anyone have any information regarding online or printed catalogs for >medieval clothing and/or patterns? > >Thanks, >Kevin > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > #################################### Nina Marcks v W Sweden e-mail:nina.marcks@swipnet.se _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 12:38:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19152 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:38:24 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29018; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:48:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA09556 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:46:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zeus.directcon.net (zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA09528 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:46:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r4p36.directcon.net [206.170.184.85]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA20198 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907151746.KAA20198@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: H-COST: H-cost: T-tunics, etc Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson After some years away, I'm getting back into the SCA. Having displayed insufficient reluctance, I am now the Mistress of Arts for our shire, and I've been asked to do a "basic costuming" workshop. I'm all too familar with the standard "Mr. T-tunic is our friend" approach, using modern materials, trim, and sewing methods to produce a quick and easy medievaloid garment. I'd like to at least touch on how these things would have been constructed in period. How would the keyhole neck have been finished? The rest of a tunic seems to have been carefully cut to conserve fabric and use the full width as much as possible. Somehow, the idea of then cutting out a shaped facing doesn't seem likely. Would they have bound the edge? If so, with self fabric or a woven trim, possible a decorative one? Or would it have just been rolled and hemmed, which is difficult to do smoothly? I know to caution them to use wool and linen, and I can show examples of trims and embroideries that are good or bad. Anything else I should tell them? Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 12:48:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19325 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:48:51 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01345; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:59:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA11767 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:57:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from post.its.mcw.edu (post-v30.its.mcw.edu [141.106.30.10]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA11744 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:57:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mschulte@localhost) by post.its.mcw.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA07152 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:51:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Marie Schulte Message-Id: <199907151751.MAA07152@post.its.mcw.edu> Subject: H-COST: Re: T-tunics To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:51:28 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199907151746.KAA20198@zeus.directcon.net> from "Margo Anderson" at Jul 15, 99 10:46:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Marie Schulte Why not look through _Cut of my cote_, published through the Royal Ontario Museum, I think. It gives several diagrams of different shirts, tunics, and coats (I think). Many that fall in the SCA period were made of simple squares and triangles.....at least from what I recall. Moreover, my copy is in storage. Maybe someone else with this invaluable pamphlet could comment. -marie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 13:06:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA19691 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:06:43 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04363; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:14:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA14995 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:11:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tn.home.com [24.2.7.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA14919 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:11:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from home.com ([24.1.35.138]) by mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990715181134.SIWG22986.mail.rdc1.tn.home.com@home.com> for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:11:34 -0700 Message-ID: <378E2450.58047082@home.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:11:28 -0500 From: Kat & Kent X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: H-cost: T-tunics, etc References: <199907151746.KAA20198@zeus.directcon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Kat & Kent I've made tons of t-tunics and not a one had a keyhole neckline. I've cut 'v's, circular, and square. Finished them by using a small hem. Sometimes I would add trim about a 1/4" from the edge and sometimes I trimmed them by using colored or metallic thread and a fancy stitch when I was hemming. Mistress Nerak makes keyhole t-tunics and uses a facing (usually of a complementary color and then turns it to the front and does a fancy stitch at the neckline and the edge of the facing. Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 13:26:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA20026 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:26:09 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07483; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:38:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA20421 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:36:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA20407 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:36:15 -0600 (MDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6KQQa04446 (3859) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:35:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <429bddb0.24bf83de@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:35:10 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: H-cost: T-tunics, etc To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 7/15/99 2:18:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kdyer@home.com writes: << I've made tons of t-tunics and not a one had a keyhole neckline. I've cut 'v's, circular, and square. Finished them by using a small hem. Sometimes I would add trim about a 1/4" from the edge and sometimes I trimmed them by using colored or metallic thread and a fancy stitch when I was hemming. Mistress Nerak makes keyhole t-tunics and uses a facing (usually of a complementary color and then turns it to the front and does a fancy stitch at the neckline and the edge of the facing. >> This is not my period but I think it's safe to assume that just about any method we might think of today, that is not machine oriented, would have been thought of back then. A shaped facing does not seem out of place; especially if it made up &/or pieced together from scraps. A contrasting facing seems OK if the fabric is left over from something else...scraps again. Rolled hems & straight facings will obviously work as mentioned above. Hand bindings & decorative embroidered overcastings all seem appropriate. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 13:37:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA20192 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:37:20 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09295; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:49:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA22625 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:47:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA22607 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:47:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00804 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378E2D09.9E815846@serv.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:48:41 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: H-cost: T-tunics, etc References: <199907151746.KAA20198@zeus.directcon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > I'd like to at least touch on how these things would > have been constructed in period. Several of the bog tunics from Marc Carlsons website http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/5923/ show pattern shapes. There is a photo in Joan Evans' "Dress in Medieval France" that shows an extant "chainse". This is a basic t-tunic. The neck is a basic circle. The "keyhole" cut, really just a slit, is to the left of center. It appears that the cut of the neckhole has been finished with a bias tape like method. Then an embellishment of either embroidery, trim, or fabric in a square with the neckhole cut out is sewn down. The sleeve ends are heaviliy embroidered, even pearls are used, maybe about 2-3" wide. So is the hem, the trim at hem is about 5" wide. Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 13:55:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA20521 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:55:34 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11735; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:07:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA27334 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:05:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cdale3.midwest.net (cdale3.midwest.net [208.235.1.20]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA27278 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:05:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from default (paducah61.midwest.net [208.235.9.71]) by cdale3.midwest.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA02304 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:07:12 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <012701becef3$7106d300$4709ebd0@default> From: "Jennifer Gibson" To: References: <199907151746.KAA20198@zeus.directcon.net> <378E2D09.9E815846@serv.net> Subject: H-COST: Garment Colors in the Civil War Era Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:53:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Jennifer Gibson" Hello, I am new to the list as well as the world of living history. I am in the process of beginning what will no doubt be a huge amount of research on the Civil War to adequately develop a persona. Would anyone happen to know where I could find information on the colors used in clothing of the Civil War era? I will greatly appreciate any leads. Thanks so much, Jenny _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 14:55:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA21585 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:55:26 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21176; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:02:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA14562 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:00:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp1-alterdial.uu.net (alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.22]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA14551 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:00:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jwilbur1 by smtp1-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: 119.pcpool89.corp.us.uu.net [153.39.89.119]) id QQgyaa13520 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:00:39 GMT Message-Id: From: "Jessica Wilbur" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:04:43 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: correcting info again Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" Hello again, Just a quick note as a point of information: the paperback copy of Ashelford that I have was published in 1993. The original edition was published in 1983, or thereabouts. --Jessica > > However, I would like to point out that scholarship and research are part > of a continuous process. In the case of the portrait of Elizabeth Seymour, > once thought to be Catherine Howard, look at the publication date of > Ashelford's book. I believe it was published in the mid 1980s, and probably > never updated when it was republished -- that's not Ashelford's fault. I > don't think *any* of the books in that series went into second editions, > until they were collected (and edited down) into the large format, by > Aileen Ribeiro. > > 15 years is a long time ago, particularly in clothing history. She can't be > held accountable for discoveries made after her book was published. > > It's up to the reader to read carefully and critically, and read widely. > > > > Deborah > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 15:37:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA22286 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:37:44 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00540; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:49:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA25651 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:47:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hpamgaab.compuserve.com (ah-img-2.compuserve.com [149.174.217.153]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA25609 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:47:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpamgaab.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id QAA29670 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:46:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:46:10 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Boning UK To: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907151646_MC2-7D2F-C5FF@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id PAA22286 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson >I am looking for a supplier of boning. I am due to start work on an Elizabethan bodice and farthingale and require boning for both. I would prefer this supplier to be in the UK or if elsewhere to accept credit cards. Now here I can help ! What type, steel, spiral, nylon (ugh !) I use spiral for Victorian corsets, very comfortable & steel for my bustles. Both from the UK. Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 15:38:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA22293 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:38:09 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00815; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:50:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA25767 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:47:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hpamgaaa.compuserve.com (ah-img-1.compuserve.com [149.174.217.154]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA25750 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:47:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpamgaaa.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id QAA26449 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:47:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:46:09 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Veiling To: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907151646_MC2-7D2F-C5FD@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id PAA22293 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson >I'm a belly dancer and there are a lot of suppliers for veils. Is this what you are looking for? If so, I'm happy to send you some web sites. Me too but I'm afraid not, it is for wearing over ones face with a hat, net like but not with hugh holes like modern veiling. Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 15:40:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA22373 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:40:43 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01259; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:52:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA26268 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:50:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hpamgaac.compuserve.com (ah-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.217.157]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA26256 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:50:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpamgaac.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id QAA08274 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:49:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:46:11 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Veiling To: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907151646_MC2-7D2F-C600@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id PAA22373 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson >I've never heard of a supplier for veiling. What do you mean by veiling? it is like a fine soft net >Can you get your hands on fine linen or silk. That would work. Yes but it isn't what I want ! :) I have some on my side saddle topper, but it is old,.... 1930s or so & I can't find anything similar now Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 17:40:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25192 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:40:26 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18024; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:52:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA21333 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:49:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.cho.org (mail.cho.org [209.77.137.36]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id QAA21307 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:49:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.19.1.35] ([172.19.1.35]) by mail.cho.org; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:49:40 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: ldownward@198.211.240.120 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199907151646_MC2-7D2F-C600@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:48:51 -0800 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Lynn Downward Subject: Re: H-COST: Veiling Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Lynn Downward >-Poster: Melanie Wilson > >>I've never heard of a supplier for veiling. What do you mean by veiling? > > >it is like a fine soft net > >>Can >you get your hands on fine linen or silk. That would work. > >Yes but it isn't what I want ! :) > >I have some on my side saddle topper, but it is old,.... 1930s or so & I >can't find anything similar now > >Mel Mel, Have you looked at millinery supplies houses? Or wedding stores? Those are very obvious, but you could try. I know of supply houses in New York and Los Angeles that do shipping, but I don't have the names handy and I'll be away for the weekend starting in about 1 1/2 hours. AH, the name of the place in L.A. is Embellishments and I think they have a website. Good luck in you rhunt! LynnD _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 18:04:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA25603 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:04:44 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21632; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:17:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA26296 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:15:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from relay4.hawaii.edu (relay4.hawaii.edu [128.171.94.12]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id RAA26238 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:15:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from uhunix1.its.hawaii.edu ([128.171.44.6]) by relay4.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <374215(4)>; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:15:07 -1000 Received: from localhost by uhunix1.its.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <135727(7)>; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:14:56 -1000 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:14:52 -1000 From: X-Sender: lisaleon@uhunix1 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: T-tunics In-Reply-To: <199907151751.MAA07152@post.its.mcw.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: > Why not look through _Cut of my cote_, published through the Royal > Ontario Museum, I think. It gives several diagrams of different shirts, > tunics, and coats (I think). After a quick skim, here are the ones that are pre 17C: -Egyptian, Coptic, 4th century: The whole garment was woven to shape; sleeves and neck hole were woven into the fabric. -Egyptian, Coptic, 5th-6th century: Also woven to shape with neck hole woven in. Text says that there are a number of other Egyptian shirts dating from the 4th to 12th cent. that were woven to shape. -Egyptian, Islamic, 10th-12th cent.: Neckline and short slit along the shoulder seam bound with a narrow band of silk. Doesn't say if it was cut on the bias but I would imagine it was cut on the straight of the grain. -French (probably, said to have belonged to St. Louis), 13th cent.: Slightly rounded triangular [does that make sense?] neck hole that was bound with a narrow strip of fabric; strips cross to make an X at the center front of the V-neck. I remember seeing a pattern for this somewhere--maybe in Tilke? >From _Daily Life in Chaucer's England_. This book has an extensive bibliography but no specific references for the following. "In many surviving unlined garments, neck and wrist openings are faced with a narrow linen or silk strip to cut down on chafing. Often the edges of wool garments were left unfinished, since the heavily felted wool resisted fraying. Raw edges of cuffs and collars were sometimes finished by tablet-weaving a fine braid directly onto the cloth, probably using a weft thread on a needle. Many rough openings that were not faced or finished with tablet-woven edging were turned back and trimmed with a narrow silk or linen ribbon folded over the edge." The MoL Textiles and Clothing book also documents narrow strip facings. It specifically says that on all their surviving finds the silk is a tabby weave and cut on the straight; no bias strips known to be used. Also mentions hemmed single turnings, tablet woven edges and felting of wool as cutting down on fraying of raw edges. HTH, lisa/annora _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 19:45:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA27259 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:45:41 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03582; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:57:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA12100 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:55:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id SAA12080 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:55:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from msmclean (209-20-9-167.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.9.167]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA01567 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:55:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:55:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990715205415.344fdd46@mail.interlog.com> X-Sender: msmclean@mail.interlog.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: "Marsha S. McLean" Subject: H-COST: Grommet setters Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Marsha S. McLean" Some years ago I gave up on grommets and started using machined buttonholes. They are much more authentic that grommets, and I've NEVER had one rip out. These are the ultimate in cheap and strong, plus they always match your fabric. marsha Let us be elegant or DIE _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 20:51:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA28362 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:51:05 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09414; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:02:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA20315 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:00:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.mc.net (mail.mc.net [209.172.128.4]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id UAA20295 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:00:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 23625 invoked from network); 16 Jul 1999 02:00:05 -0000 Received: from chi-209-112-71-100.mc.net (HELO lynnx.enteract.com) (209.112.71.100) by mail.mc.net with SMTP; 16 Jul 1999 02:00:05 -0000 Message-ID: <378EB455.B81@mc.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:25:57 -0700 From: Heather X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: medieval pattern source References: <199907160056.SAA12117@indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: mail.mc.net 1.6.1 0/1000/N Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Heather I've heard Good Things about these guys: http://www.greenduck.com/index.shtml Sister Ed _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 20:54:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA28375 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:54:26 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09978; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:07:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA20939 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:05:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mongoose.slip.net (mongoose.slip.net [207.171.193.14]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA20901 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:04:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [207.171.230.145] (helo=default) by mongoose.slip.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #4) id 114xMo-0007dc-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:04:50 -0700 X-Sender: cjcannon@pop.slip.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:04:56 -0700 To: h-costume@indra.com From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval clothing patterns In-Reply-To: <7a4eb8e6.24bf544d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Try: http://www.greenduck.com or write to: The proprietors are reliable and have merchanted in the Society for Creative Anachronism and at Northern Renaissance Fair [Novato, CA] for years. I recommend them. Jane and Steve Urbach are their names in modern day life. Good fortune. Carol At 11:12 AM 7/15/99 -0400, you wrote: -Poster: KLWasden@aol.com Does anyone have any information regarding online or printed catalogs for medieval clothing and/or patterns? Thanks, Kevin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 20:58:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA28391 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:58:12 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA10399; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:10:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA21347 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:08:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA21334 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:08:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from home.com ([24.0.170.52]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990716020824.KJHZ17489.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@home.com> for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:08:24 -0700 Message-ID: <378E926A.3CB9BB5E@home.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:01:14 -0700 From: Russell Hedges Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Newbie - and the Spanish American War References: <199907151746.KAA20198@zeus.directcon.net> <378E2D09.9E815846@serv.net> <012701becef3$7106d300$4709ebd0@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Russell Hedges Hello. I am new here, and have been lurking for a while. This list is pretty high powered! I have been around costumers for many years, but haven't done much myself. And most of what I have done has been Science Fiction. I have recently been introduced to ballroom dancing, and vintage dancing. So now I want to costume for the Victorian age. I am male, so the beautiful gowns are out. But, would anyone here know where I could find information on American Miltary uniforms of the 1890's? I was thinking of doing a Rough Rider, like Teddy Roosevelt. Bully. If you are wondering why I chose now to delurk, last Sunday was the Victorian Grand Ball in Pasadena. The weekend before that, Night in Vienna here in San Diego. I was dressed well enough, but the halls were filled with fantastic ball gowns, and a few men wearing fantastic clothes too. I want to be one of those men. I hope I didn't ramble too much. Searching the Web has revealed sources for finished clothing. I want patterns. I know I need help. Thank you. Russell Hedges San Diego _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 21:02:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA28535 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:02:06 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11024; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:14:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA21786 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:12:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.netwiz.net (Mail.NetWiz.Net [208.136.106.6]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA21777 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:12:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from slave (BayArea56k573.NetWiz.Net [208.164.208.173]) by mail.netwiz.net (8.9.2/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA15869 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378E94BD.63F1@netwiz.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:11:09 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Tewkesbury References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Susan Fatemi Parsla Liepa wrote: > .. > Nor could I. (That this is a UK site doesn't matter.) I could, however, > get to the main Heritage Matters site, http://www.soft.net.uk/wysewords/ . > > Parsla > Thanks for typing the http:// in the address. I get so much mail, I don't even go to the sites I can't just click on. Susan F. -- Oh Noh! Kimonos! susanf@netwiz.net http://www.netwiz.net/~susanf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 21:38:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA29054 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:38:38 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15190; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:51:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA26352 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:49:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA26334 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:49:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.95 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:48:45 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: H-COST: Medieval Patterns and T-Tunics Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:56:22 -0400 Message-ID: <000001becf36$df826180$5f0bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" More medieval patterns on the Web: >From the homepage at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/5923/, at the left hand menu, click on making stuff. Some Clothing of the Middle Ages section is the best you'll find on the Web, everything diagrammed and very well documented for you, at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/5923/cloth/bockhom e.html. Thank you to I. Marc Carlson. More really terrific tunic documentation at http://www.leatherworks.com/viktunics.htm specifies the keyhole neckline as a ninth and tenth century Swedish thing, for example. Discusses seams techniques, fabrics and weaves, cut, and origins of actual garments, good bibliography. These two sites take it a step further , showing how to cut the pieces efficiently out of a single length of fabric: The 10-gore dress pattern: http://www.virtualelpaso.com/neverwinter/dress/dress.htm T-tunic, the period way: http://www.fpnet.co.nz/users/m/maggiem/works/mystuff/TUNICS. HTML And this for great background information on making things in period, use the scrollable table of contents on the left of the page: http://moas.atlantia.sca.org/topics.htm#text For the tablet-woven trim, neck facing, cuffs, and belts, the clearest directions I've seen are at: http://www.mtsu.edu/~kgregg/dmir/new/bonnie/twpatterns.html Even if you don't make your own, you can get a feel for the style of tablet woven decoration. Design inspiration for cotehardies as well as some alternate cutting diagrams, but not documented: http://www.pipcom.com/~tempus/cotehardie/cotehardie.html Have fun! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:11:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA29659 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:10:54 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18205; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:22:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA00347 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:20:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jefferson.patriot.net (root@jefferson.patriot.net [209.249.176.3]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id VAA00310 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:20:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [206.151.9.13] (th-0-4.patriot.net [206.151.9.13] (may be forged)) by jefferson.patriot.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA12386 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:20:05 -0400 Message-Id: <199907160320.XAA12386@jefferson.patriot.net> Subject: Re: H-COST: Grommet setters Date: Thu, 15 Jul 99 23:22:54 -0000 x-sender: aquazoo@mail.patriot.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Marsha wrote, >Some years ago I gave up on grommets and started using machined buttonholes. >They are much more authentic that grommets, and I've NEVER had one rip out. >These are the ultimate in cheap and strong, plus they always match your >fabric. It depends on what you're doing. Grommets are fine for 19thC corsets. I hope when you say machined buttonholes you mean when you set the machine on the eyelet size. I've seen people use regular buttonholes for eyelets, and I think it looks just like machine done buttonholes! It's no better than grommets for the non-grommet time periods. Hand stitched eyelets are not difficult and do not take long. The trick is to use a bodkin or awl to make the hole - snip as few threads as necessary for the size hole you want. Stretching the hole packs the threads of the fabric together, making the hole stronger. In 18thC stays, the eyelet holes are stitched only as much as necessary to hold it open. In some cases, as few as four stitches! For most cases more like twelve stitches. They are whipstitches, not hand buttonhole stitches. So I find that punching a hole and making a couple of stitches goes much faster than making a machine buttonhole and snipping it open. Also, in extant garments the thread on the eyelet is usually cream linen, not a color thread that matches the fabric. -Carol _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:49:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA30207 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:49:03 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22040; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:00:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA05167 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:58:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.leading.net (root@smtp.leading.net [207.98.192.90]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id VAA05153 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:58:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from a39193-s2-19-243.leading.net (a39193-s2-19-243.leading.net [216.199.27.243]) by smtp.leading.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA04727 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907160358.XAA04727@smtp.leading.net> From: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" To: "h-costume@indra.com" Date: Thu, 15 Jul 99 23:48:44 Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.95a For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" Good Gentles, Teddy wrote: (snip) >The garment in question was the top half of a "sideless-surcote" >When the stallholder explained that this was all she could make >out of the remnant she had used I asked what she was going to >use for the skirts and she told me that there *were* no skirts to go >with it. She said she had made several of these garments to be >worn over fitted gowns and that there were both skirted and >unskirted versions of this garment. > >This doesn't sound right to me. I don't recall ever seeing a >picture/diagram/painting/illo that showed an unskirted version of >these surcotes... or have I seen them and just assumed the skirts >that showed below them were the surcote rather than the skirts of >the gown beneath? > >Anyone out there care to comment. (snip) I have also never encountered this in a book. I HAVE encountered it once on somebody. To be honest, I would never wear such a garment after seeing the way it looked on her. It was cut out right, but it needed the weight of the skirt to stay where it belonged. I highly doubt there was ever such a garment. The lady appeared to be new to the Society, so I politely tried to talk with her about her garb. I am known to be quite (I've been told TOO) polite, but she didn't take my attempt at conversation very well. She had made it the way it was supposed to be, and she didn't care what anyone else thought. I had to give up. If she really was a newcomer, then the job she did on her surcote top was quite impressive, making me sincerely hope that soon someone helps her realize that it really should have a skirt. Yours in the Dream, Arianne de Dragonnid Shire of Castlemere, Kingdom of Trimaris %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% "The founder of my noble line was wont to see Dragons. His Lady rode out from the forest in a gown of samite and was as young on the day he died as on their wedding day." %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 15 23:43:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA31227 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:43:05 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA27204; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:50:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA11564 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:48:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dgs.dgsys.com (robin@dgs.dgsys.com [204.97.64.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA11547 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:48:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by dgs.dgsys.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA03773 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:48:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: dgs.dgsys.com: robin owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:48:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Robin Netherton To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question In-Reply-To: <8A3A3145D04@mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Robin Netherton On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, teddy1 wrote: > This doesn't sound right to me. I don't recall ever seeing a > picture/diagram/painting/illo that showed an unskirted version of > these surcotes... or have I seen them and just assumed the skirts > that showed below them were the surcote rather than the skirts of > the gown beneath? You're right, it was a misinterpretation. But she may indeed have gotten it from a book. I've seen at least two or three Victorian or early 20th-century costume books that have repeated this same misinterpretation. My favorite is the one that went on at length about the chic little fur-trimmed "jackets" that women wore over their fitted dresses. Apparently the author looked at images of women in sideless surcotes (meaning a long open-sided gown with fur edging and a fur placket, decorated with a row of front buttons, worn over a fitted dress that showed at the sides and sleeves) -- but he assumed that the skirt represented the underdress, whereas the outer layer was a jacket with long tight sleeves, wide bands of fur trim in elegant curves, and a front button closure He then proceeded to draw about 20 sketches of various styles of this jacket -- which were of course the shapes of the fur trims and fur plackets from the misinterpreted images. The author said one version was actually sleeveless, just the skeletal shape of the fur trim only. (I want to say this was one of Henry Shaw's books, but I may be wrong. I have the Xeroxes at home, and I'm on the road, so if anyone wants the cite, write me and I'll look it up next week.) I think I don't need to tell anyone on this list that this jacket did not exist! I have used that book, and several others, in a lecture on Victorian misinterpretations of medieval sources. I got many of these books off open-stack library shelves. There are a lot of old books sitting out there in public libraries, and people who are just starting out in costume research have no way of knowing that the older books are not reliable -- particularly if that's all their local library has. I wouldn't be surprised if this particular misconception was repeated in more than one costume book that followed. Authors in the first half of this century are notorious for picking up their information from earlier costume books, not from direct examination of the sources themselves. That was understandable in the day when pictures of manuscripts were hard to come by, and color pictures very rare. Today, we have no such excuse -- we can see good reproductions of massive quantitites of medieval art in books and on the Web. --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 01:15:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA00159 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:15:55 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA02961; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:24:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id AAA21672 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:22:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id AAA21659 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:22:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-68-62.irvn11.pacbell.net [206.170.68.62]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05414 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378E0AD3.A63E97D5@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:23:00 +0000 From: Dietmar Organization: Completely Disorganized X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04C-PBI-NC404 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Re: T-tunics, etc References: <199907151746.KAA20198@zeus.directcon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, Margo wrote: > After some years away, I'm getting back into the SCA. Having > displayed insufficient reluctance, I am now the Mistress of Arts > for our shire, and I've been asked to do a "basic costuming" > workshop. Commiserations...I just stepped up as our baronial herald. > I'm all too familar with the standard "Mr. T-tunic is our friend" > approach, using modern materials, trim, and sewing methods to > produce a quick and easy medievaloid garment. I'd like to at > least touch on how these things would have been constructed in > period. By all means, show them as many medieval patterns as possible. > How would the keyhole neck have been finished? The rest of a > tunic seems to have been carefully cut to conserve fabric and > use the full width as much as possible. Somehow, the idea of > then cutting out a shaped facing doesn't seem likely. Would > they have bound the edge? If so, with self fabric or a woven > trim, possible a decorative one? Or would it have just been > rolled and hemmed, which is difficult to do smoothly? Probably all of the above. I believe there is also evidence that Vikings cut silk into strips for use as decorative trim and edge binding. > I know to caution them to use wool and linen, and I can show > examples of trims and embroideries that are good or bad. > Anything else I should tell them? Well, at 6'1", I have no problem making a floor length tunic with 4 yards of 45" wide fabric using a medieval cutting pattern. It's nice to point out that medieval patterns are very economical and that there are plenty of them. Oh yeah. Accessorize, accessorize, accessorize!! The right accessories complete the outfit. Marie wrote: > Why not look through _Cut of my cote_, published through the Royal > Ontario Museum, I think. It gives several diagrams of different > shirts, tunics, and coats (I think). Many that fall in the SCA > period were made of simple squares and triangles...at least from > what I recall. I only remember one period pattern in 'Cut my Cote' and that was the St. Louis tunic. (I might have bought it if I saw more.) There were two others that they lumped together. One was middle eastern from the 18th century. The other was an early 19th century Canadian child's fur jacket that they speculate could be similar in pattern to medieval clothing. These are only my recollections, but I haven't seen the book in years. Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 03:58:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA02931 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:58:08 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA12351; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:11:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id DAA05266 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:09:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from RBAD33.RBACRXCLU.BAS.ROCHE.COM (mail-external-basel.bas.roche.com [196.3.50.190]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id DAA05259 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:09:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com (rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com [145.245.211.139]) by Roche.COM (PMDF V5.2-31 #33472) with ESMTP id <01JDMOXAYN9E9DI47K@Roche.COM> for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:06:46 +0200 Received: by rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <378N9SGK>; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:06:41 +0200 Content-return: allowed Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:06:40 +0200 From: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Subject: RE: H-COST: Boning UK To: "'h-costume@indra.com'" Message-id: <431EB483DFB4D111A2D50000F843C5C401009E3F@RWEMSEM2> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Whatever is appropriate for Elizabethan, I rather imagine steel. I have no idea what spiral is. Rachel Roche Products Limited 40 Broadwater Road Welwyn Garden City Hertfordshire AL7 3AY Tel: 01707 366441 Registration Number 100674 > -----Original Message----- > From: Melanie Wilson [SMTP:MelanieWilson@compuserve.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 9:46 PM > To: INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Boning UK > > > -Poster: Melanie Wilson > > >I am looking for a supplier of boning. I am due to start work on an > Elizabethan bodice and farthingale and require boning for both. I would > prefer this supplier to be in the UK or if elsewhere to accept credit > cards. > > Now here I can help ! > > What type, steel, spiral, nylon (ugh !) > > I use spiral for Victorian corsets, very comfortable & steel for my > bustles. > > Both from the UK. > > Mel > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 04:21:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA03394 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 04:21:37 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA13218; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:35:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id DAA22600 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:32:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.6.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id DAA22355 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:32:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) id <01JDMNWIBB3K00928S@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:38:03 BST Received: from mdx-bg-staff2.nw.mdx.ac.uk (mdx-bg-staff2.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.56.3]) by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) with ESMTP id <01JDMNWHEIZE008MLR@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:37:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from MDX-BG-STAFF2/SpoolDir by mdx-bg-staff2.nw.mdx.ac.uk (Mercury 1.44); Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:32:15 +0000 (GMT0BST) Received: from SpoolDir by MDX-BG-STAFF2 (Mercury 1.44); Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:32:04 +0000 (GMT0BST) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:31:59 +0000 (GMT) From: teddy1 Subject: Re: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.40 (NDS) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: teddy1 > - -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) > Wow. I've *never*ever* heard this one before. Seriously! Me either, that's why I thought I'd ask. > Erm. It sounds as though she's taking the fossilized court versions > of the sideless surcote over-literally. This type are shown with the > skirts pleated/gathered into the supporting band around the hips. I > trust this was the type she had for sale? Narrow centre-front strip (neckline to hips), slightly wider back strip and the bottom edge of the "armhole" connecting the two at hip level. I'm in the middle of making a sideless in gold brocade for a friend's wedding in a few weeks... slightly earlier with wider front and back panels... but I caut it through from shoulder to hem and was planning to add fur "guards" around the neck and armholes in a similar shape as would be covered by this trader's purple velvet "garment" I've never made one before, however, and thought there might have been something I'd missed > Maybe some poor redrawings from victorian costume books, which may > have the girdle showing where it never does in primary source art, > or have the skirts shown as the same colour as the undergown. > (Racinet, again, comes to mind. Blame the colourists, if you must. > I do.) *This* is what I thought most likely whan I asked her about her sources... > Did she perhaps mention where she found this gem of knowledge? If it > is indeed true (which I find *extremely* doubtful as I am currently > researching this period in depth and have seen nothing like this in > the artwork I have been studying) I would love to know what sort of > documentation she has based it on. New sources are always welcome. I asked but got very little by way of reply other than that she hadn't got them with her at the event but had seen it in "several" places... and she flitted off into another subject area and showed me pictures of some very nice early Victorian stuff she'd made for a museum. Being as we are both "conversational-butterflies," I was quite happy to flit from subject to subject and it didn't occur to me that I hadn't pressed for more details until after i had left the event.... Teddy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 05:40:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA04589 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:40:41 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA17053; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 04:53:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id EAA14956 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 04:51:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hpamgaaa.compuserve.com (ah-img-1.compuserve.com [149.174.217.154]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id EAA14796 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 04:51:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpamgaaa.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id GAA19198 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 06:51:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 06:49:53 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Boning UK To: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907160650_MC2-7D3F-4518@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id FAA04589 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Whatever is appropriate for Elizabethan, I rather imagine steel. I have no idea what spiral is. Spiral is steel but a kind of flat spring with ends on, it allows movement in more directions. Steel Boning is £24 a 20 m roll 12mm wide, or £1.50 per metre plus postage at cost to a max of £4.25 in the UK Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 05:45:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA04659 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:45:18 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA17340; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 04:58:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id EAA21958 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 04:56:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.6.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id EAA21748 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 04:56:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) id <01JDMQTWHNS000928S@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:01:46 BST Received: from mdx-bg-staff2.nw.mdx.ac.uk (mdx-bg-staff2.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.56.3]) by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) with ESMTP id <01JDMQTNLHA2008MLR@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:01:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from MDX-BG-STAFF2/SpoolDir by mdx-bg-staff2.nw.mdx.ac.uk (Mercury 1.44); Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:55:29 +0000 (GMT0BST) Received: from SpoolDir by MDX-BG-STAFF2 (Mercury 1.44); Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:55:11 +0000 (GMT0BST) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:55:08 +0000 (GMT) From: teddy1 Subject: Re: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.40 (NDS) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: teddy1 > Subject: Re: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question > > - -Poster: teddy1 > I'm in the middle of making a sideless in gold brocade for a friend's > wedding in a few weeks... slightly earlier with wider front and back > panels... but I caut it through from shoulder to hem and was planning > to add fur "guards" around the neck and armholes in a similar shape > as would be covered by this trader's purple velvet "garment" Ooops! My typing is bad at the best of times, now my fingers are putting in different words than I was menaing to use.... What I meant to put in the paragraph above was.... I *cut* it through from shoulder to hem and was planning to add fur "guards" around the neck and armholes in a similar shape as would be covered by this trader's purple *silk brocade* "garment" Teddy (Rushing through checking his e-mail between jobs...) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 05:48:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA04676 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:48:47 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA17639; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:02:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id FAA26514 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:00:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from RBAD33.RBACRXCLU.BAS.ROCHE.COM (mail-external-basel.bas.roche.com [196.3.50.190]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id FAA26317 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:00:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com (rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com [145.245.211.139]) by Roche.COM (PMDF V5.2-31 #33472) with ESMTP id <01JDMSSXFJB49EOGO9@Roche.COM> for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:57:44 +0200 Received: by rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <378N9XFK>; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:57:42 +0200 Content-return: allowed Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:57:40 +0200 From: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Subject: RE: H-COST: Boning UK To: "'h-costume@indra.com'" Message-id: <431EB483DFB4D111A2D50000F843C5C401009E40@RWEMSEM2> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id FAA04676 Status: O -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Mel Where do you get this from? Rachel Roche Products Limited 40 Broadwater Road Welwyn Garden City Hertfordshire AL7 3AY Tel: 01707 366441 Registration Number 100674 > -----Original Message----- > From: Melanie Wilson [SMTP:MelanieWilson@compuserve.com] > Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 11:50 AM > To: INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Boning UK > > > -Poster: Melanie Wilson > > >Whatever is appropriate for Elizabethan, I rather imagine steel. I have > no > idea what spiral is. > > Spiral is steel but a kind of flat spring with ends on, it allows movement > in more directions. > > Steel Boning is £24 a 20 m roll 12mm wide, or £1.50 per metre plus > postage at cost to a max of £4.25 in the UK > > Mel > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 06:20:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05202 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 06:20:32 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA18780; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:33:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id FAA01532 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:31:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id FAA01524 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:31:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem6.barney.pol.co.uk ([195.92.7.6] helo=herimats) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 11563h-0005Ya-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:21:42 +0100 Message-ID: <004d01becf7d$649ec160$06075cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: <378E94BD.63F1@netwiz.net> Subject: Re: H-COST: Tewkesbury Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:11:53 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Just in case; here it is again; properly, as there is no link from the main site http://www.soft.net.uk/wysewords/tewkesbu.htm Gallery four is now up Some more films of the the battle proper are awaiting my attention at the moment and should be available over the weekend; I should be able to keep them there for a month. This was a bit of an experiment; but judging by the hits on the site since its announcement; there has been considerable interest. The feedback has also been welcome, so at least a few of those hits found something of interest. There are a couple of other events that we are planning to cover, so its possible to do it again. Suggestions and invitations for future coverage are most welcome. ++ In answer to many FAQ; Heritage Matters is a free on subscription magazine aimed at professionals in the Tourism/Heritage industry in the UK;. Production is limited and we do not want to push our subscription list up to no effect. , which means outside UK; Contents of each issue are listed on our website and we can mail a copy of any individual article on request. We dont charge for printouts of pictures but do request an SAE; I am sorry if this seems like advertising; but rather than make money I am just trying to keep our costs down Dave LD MUNDY Editor Heritage Matters , http://www.soft.net.uk/wysewords/ . > > Thanks for typing the http:// in the address. > I get so much mail, I don't even go to the sites I > can't just click on. > > Susan F. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 06:28:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05319 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 06:28:14 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA19272; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:41:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id FAA02172 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:39:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id FAA02161 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:39:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem123.hulk.pol.co.uk ([195.92.6.123] helo=herimats) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 1156LA-0006Iu-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:39:45 +0100 Message-ID: <007201becf7f$ea0d9ef0$06075cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: <199907151746.KAA20198@zeus.directcon.net> <378E2D09.9E815846@serv.net> <012701becef3$7106d300$4709ebd0@default> <378E926A.3CB9BB5E@home.com> Subject: Re: H-COST: Newbie - and the Spanish American War Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:38:16 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" ----- Original Message ----- > > -Poster: Russell Hedges > > I am male, so the beautiful gowns are out. Are you sure about this. One of the Societies I belong to , admittedly set up as an antidote to so many women wearing miltary uniforms at events, only meets once a year; on which occassion, we all get a chance to put on the frocks. It can hurt buts its fun. ( Heavy corsetting does not bode well with lots of ale) The Chevalier Beaumont D'Eu was an important guest at many Napoleonic period balls. Why not set a precedent. Dave ( before anybody asks ; no ; its the one event from which my camera is banned) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 08:13:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA07275 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:13:40 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA27078; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 07:26:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA12338 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 07:24:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from latte.2xtreme.net (latte.2xtreme.net [209.63.222.34]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id HAA12331 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 07:24:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 10637 invoked from network); 16 Jul 1999 13:27:43 -0000 Received: from p75.sac3.2xtreme.net (HELO 2xtreme.net) (209.63.218.75) by latte.2xtreme.net with SMTP; 16 Jul 1999 13:27:43 -0000 Message-ID: <378FDB14.75F386ED@2xtreme.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:23:32 -0700 From: Stephen Bergdahl X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Trim on Ebay References: <000101bec964$348693a0$6a0bfdd0@sharp-9070-> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Stephen Bergdahl Dear Listed I have just but up for bid a very nice Red & Black Medieval trim. Perfict for Ren Fair or SCA. Check it out at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=131427828 Happy Days! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 08:27:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA07462 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:27:55 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA28587; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 07:41:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA14504 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 07:39:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA14474 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 07:39:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ip158.r3.d.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.133.158]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA01318 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 06:39:23 -0700 (PDT) From: "Cathy Harding" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: Tewkesbury Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 06:44:48 -0700 Message-ID: <000001becf91$5eec3ae0$9e8514d1@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <004d01becf7d$649ec160$06075cc3@herimats> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Cathy Harding" Are there any no-battle scenes? Like campsites, camp kitchens, clothing closeups? Maeve > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of dave;editors(Heritage Matters) > Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 4:12 AM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: H-COST: Tewkesbury > > > > -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" > > Just in case; here it is again; properly, as there is no link > from the main > site > http://www.soft.net.uk/wysewords/tewkesbu.htm > Gallery four is now up > Some more films of the the battle proper are awaiting my attention at the > moment and should be available over the weekend; > I should be able to keep them there for a month. > This was a bit of an experiment; but judging by the hits on the > site since > its announcement; there has been considerable interest. The feedback has > also been welcome, so at least a few of those hits found something of > interest. > There are a couple of other events that we are planning to cover, so its > possible to do it again. > Suggestions and invitations for future coverage are most welcome. > ++ > In answer to many FAQ; Heritage Matters is a free on subscription magazine > aimed at professionals in the Tourism/Heritage industry in the UK;. > Production is limited and we do not want to push our subscription > list up to > no effect. , which means outside UK; > Contents of each issue are listed on our website and we can mail a copy of > any individual article on request. > We dont charge for printouts of pictures but do request an SAE; > I am sorry if this seems like advertising; but rather than make money I am > just trying to keep our costs down > Dave > LD MUNDY > Editor Heritage Matters > , http://www.soft.net.uk/wysewords/ . > > > > Thanks for typing the http:// in the address. > > I get so much mail, I don't even go to the sites I > > can't just click on. > > > > Susan F. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 08:36:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA07622 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:36:28 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29327; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 07:49:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA15556 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 07:47:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA15539 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 07:47:43 -0600 (MDT) From: Gaelscot@aol.com Received: from Gaelscot@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6WVFa23465 (300) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:47:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1865cc3f.24c091d5@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:47:01 EDT Subject: H-COST: medieval seam finishing To: h-costume-digest@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com BTW: I have read a couple of those sources (MOL book, etc.) that mention finishing some medieval seams with strips of silk or linen. But (perhaps it's just my slow wit) I've never been able to figure out what this means. Does it mean that the strip would be INSIDE the garment, covering the raw edges to keep them from fraying and/or rubbing the skin? I do this on necklines with bias tape, or with extra strips of whatever fabric I have sitting around, which works very well. Or does it mean that the raw edges are on the OUTSIDE of the garment, covered with a protective and decorative strip of fabric? I've done that too. Both methods work and look nice, but I have no idea whether either was actually done at any time in the middle ages. As for the keyhole neck -- well, I've always done it as a contrasting facing that's topstitched to the front of the garment. But I was taught that as a newbie, and I always assumed that it was an attractive but modern solution. It's been many years since I've done one. Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:21:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13128 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:21:06 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17675; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:22:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA26379 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:20:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ares.flash.net (ares.flash.net [209.30.0.41]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA26269 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:19:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from flash.net (p25.amax46.dialup.hou1.flash.net [209.30.106.25]) by ares.flash.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15094 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:19:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <378F8519.CD0B7D66@flash.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:16:41 -0500 From: Charlene Charette X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing References: <24139935.24c0d3f4@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Charlene Charette DzMzLzy@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/16/99 11:17:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, keltia@serv.net > writes: > > > The _Museum of London Textiles and Clothing_ book published by the Museum > of London but now out of print. > > I'm not sure if this book is actually out-of-print. The difficulty in > getting this book (and other from the MOL) is that they have changed US > distributors several times over the last few years, and each time they do the > "old" distributor lists the books as no-longer-available. > > Could someone in the UK confirm if this book is truly out-of-print? > Thanks The Stationery Office (http://www.tsonline.co.uk/) shows it in print (£32). I didn't check all the books in the series. --Charlene -- One may be my very good friend, and yet not of my opinion. -- Margaret Cavendish _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:21:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13113 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:20:58 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17681; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:22:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA26486 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:20:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.greatbasin.net (mail.greatbasin.net [207.228.35.39]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA26394 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:20:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dfenwick (rno-max4-48.gbis.net [207.228.61.48]) by mail.greatbasin.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA08845 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <005701becfbf$dd2400e0$df0110ac@dfenwick> From: "Dan Fenwick" To: References: <24139935.24c0d3f4@aol.com> Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:17:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Dan Fenwick" > I'm not sure if this book is actually out-of-print. The difficulty in > getting this book (and other from the MOL) is that they have changed US > distributors several times over the last few years, and each time they do the > "old" distributor lists the books as no-longer-available. > > Could someone in the UK confirm if this book is truly out-of-print? > Thanks I had no luck trying to get them direct from HMSO. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:30:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13255 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:30:46 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10696; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:32:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA15471 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:30:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA15444 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:30:36 -0600 (MDT) From: DzMzLzy@aol.com Received: from DzMzLzy@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6MLWa06209 (4464) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:29:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <24139935.24c0d3f4@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:29:08 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: DzMzLzy@aol.com In a message dated 7/16/99 11:17:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, keltia@serv.net writes: > The _Museum of London Textiles and Clothing_ book published by the Museum of London but now out of print. I'm not sure if this book is actually out-of-print. The difficulty in getting this book (and other from the MOL) is that they have changed US distributors several times over the last few years, and each time they do the "old" distributor lists the books as no-longer-available. Could someone in the UK confirm if this book is truly out-of-print? Thanks Liz Gerds _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:30:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13269 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:30:52 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13323; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:50:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA18815 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:48:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp1-alterdial.uu.net (alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.22]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA18780 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:48:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jwilbur1 by smtp1-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: 119.pcpool89.corp.us.uu.net [153.39.89.119]) id QQgydn27898 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:48:07 GMT Message-Id: From: "Jessica Wilbur" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:52:18 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing Priority: normal In-reply-to: <378F76DB.AFD935E@serv.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" Hello, > > -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > > > What is the MOL book, please? > There are five > books in the series, Textiles and Clothing, Dress Accessories, Shoes > and Pattens, Household Goods, and Horse something or other. These > books are a God send to the medieval re-enactor. Just a minor note: there are now six books in the series. I saw the newest one last night. It is on pilgrim badges and other cast-metal items. Very cool! And yes, these books are a godsend-- they are often the only chance we have to see pictures of extant items. The only thing better is seeing the actual item itself! --Jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:31:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13279 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:30:58 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08222; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:16:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA11912 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:14:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA11892 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:14:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28217 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378F76DB.AFD935E@serv.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:15:56 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing References: <199907161634.KAA20255@indra.com> <378F7017.14B54ED7@vci.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > What is the MOL book, please? I am operating on the assumption that it is the _Museum of London Textiles and Clothing_ book published by the Museum of London but now out of print. The book deals with archealogical finds along the Thames River in London. Much land was reclaimed during the years 1150 and 1450 by doing landfill dumps. Each dump can be dated by how close to the river it is and by records of when that particular land reclamation was done. Many items where tossed into these landfills such as shoes, clothing, household goods, dress accessories, and horse accoutrements. The Museum of London cataloged these items and then found experts in these fields to analyze the goods. There are five books in the series, Textiles and Clothing, Dress Accessories, Shoes and Pattens, Household Goods, and Horse something or other. These books are a God send to the medieval re-enactor. -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:31:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13290 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:31:02 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07315; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:10:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA10713 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:08:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA10691 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:08:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28107 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378F7581.91845594@serv.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:10:09 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Re: Garb Snarks.. Off Topic References: <19990716161835.29832.rocketmail@web807.mail.yahoo.com> <008c01becfaa$086ffee0$2bf67ad1@pavilion> <378F6614.776E8E99@serv.net> <003801becfb3$19a39880$a2cd7ad1@pavilion> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > I wasn't assuming that it doesn't happen, I wanted to know where it DOES > happen. But see, what I meant was, it happens *everywhere*. Just in such minute numbers compared to the total population that most of us *don't* know someone it happened to. There is no place that it happens while all other places have no incidents at all. To say "I know someone that had that happen to them and they live in the West" would eventually start "The folks in the West are authenticity police" rumors. You've heard those kinds of rumors, we all have, whether we're in the SCA or not. > Everyone talks about how they've heard of someone saying this, that > and the other, but know one has ever really been the vicitm or witnessed it > firsthand. The poster then replied that she actually didn't play with the > SCA, she just heard that thiat was how people in the SCA are. Which is another reason why I don't think we should get into "It happens in AnTir but not in Meridies" type of conversation. That statement would be as false as the statement that "that is how most of us are in the SCA". Giving one particular area a reputation for this type of discourtesy is at best misleading. It is human nature for someone to play the one-up-manship game in every location on earth in every group, in every faction, in every century. It isn't something that happens solely in the SCA, as the first poster pointed out, and it isn't something that happens solely in one region of the SCA. People are people everywhere you go. -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:31:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13298 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:31:06 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09949; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:26:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA14036 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:24:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA14001 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:24:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gia-g (dialup346.serv.net [207.207.70.239]) by mx.serv.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA24324 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <004c01becfb8$a4f7fc00$ef46cfcf@gia-g> From: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Badmouthing other costumers Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:25:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Gia Gavino-Gattshall" HI listers! I had to laugh at costume "snarking"! While I am a costuming fanatic, I know that there are those who aren't. So be it; I try not to snark, albeit sometimes I'm not successful.... It's more fun to go out of my way to compliment a lovely bit of work, for I know *I* appreciate compliments! There are times when I can't find anything nice to say, so I don't. When in private, discussing the flaws of another person's costuming is instructive and helps me to analyze what *I* could do better (oh, is *that* how that really looks...I do that, too...oops! Lets try something different..) I am one of those *weird* folks that truly enjoys sewing garments by hand. I've sewn several t tunics a chemise and one italian ren gown by hand...just because I wanted to. And because linen *feels* so good to handle! Anyhow, have fun stitching! Gia/Giacinta >>and then proceeded to *physically* go over my friends bodice and what >>was wrong with it, "The fit is all wrong" "the fabric..." etc etc etc, >>pulling at fabric here and turning her there. She was absolutely >>right in her critique and my friend knew it because she already knew >>everything she had done wrong with the dress which made it even worse >>because the critique implied that my friend was stupid as well. > >WHY do people think this kind of thing will make them look better? In my >younger, nastier days, my favorite hobby was lambasting other people's >costumes (while wearing my own lurex-trimmed Elizabethans with the grommets >up the back, mind you) but at least I did it behind their backs. (come to >think of it, that didn't make things any better.) > >My worst example of this happened to me when my sister was working at a >vintage clothing store in San Francisco. A customer started telling her >what a hot Ren Faire costumer she was. Naturally, my sister said, "Oh, do >you know my sister, Margo?" The woman said "Oh yes, I know her.." .and >proceded to trash me and my costuming. So extensively, as a matter of fact, >that the store owner, who was present, backed out on a large project for >which he was planning to commision me. Her little exercise in self esteem >cost me $5000. Ah, karma. > >Incidentally, the person in question is on this list. I don't know if she >ever thought about possible consequences, but maybe next time she will. > >That's when I gave up my habit of costume snarking. These days, I keep my >mouth shut unless someone specifically says "What did I do wrong on this >costume, and how can I fix it?" > >Margo Anderson > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:32:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13326 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:32:25 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27435; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:04:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA26282 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:02:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA26274 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:02:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA26744 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:03:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378F6614.776E8E99@serv.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:04:21 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: Garb Snarks wasRe: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question References: <19990716161835.29832.rocketmail@web807.mail.yahoo.com> <008c01becfaa$086ffee0$2bf67ad1@pavilion> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > Where do you play with the SCA? I've lived in 3 different Kingdoms and have > been active for about 10 years and have never had anyone make that sort of > comment to me, nor have I witnssed anyone making those sort of comments to > someone. Please don't assume that because you haven't experienced this in your neck of the woods that it doesn't happen there and that because you know of one instance that it happened somewhere else that it *does* happen *there*. :) It isn't something specific to one geographical area. What it does say is that most folks would never consider being so rude as to comment on another's poor taste/skill/knowledge in costuming. Which is probably why you were fortunate not to witness it where you live. :) Most of us haven't witnessed that kind of behavior in our areas, but one truly bad story becomes legend and pretty soon newcomers are being warned about folks who have to play the Know It All. Just my $.02 worth, Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:32:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13329 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:32:26 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26556; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:59:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA25089 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:57:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA25011 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:56:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26636 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378F64BA.4315FA61@serv.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:58:34 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question References: <19990716161835.29832.rocketmail@web807.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > The other thing about this is, unfortunately, there > are some people who are rude about it... [telling newcomers that > their clothing isn't authentic] And some folks consider, that no matter how kind the person is in their delivery of the information, giving unsolicited opinions/advice/info about what is wrong with someones clothing to be rude, period. I'll never forget the evening that I was standing with my fellow Lady in Waiting after a large SCA Baronial event. A woman whose costuming is okay at best came up and said in an even tone (no snottiness or superiority) that she really wanted to sew for the Baroness, that she could really help her have a nicer wardrobe (never even cluing in that that is what *I* was doing in the name of improvement ;-> or that she was implying that the Baroness didn't already have a nice wardrobe) and then proceeded to *physically* go over my friends bodice and what was wrong with it, "The fit is all wrong" "the fabric..." etc etc etc, pulling at fabric here and turning her there. She was absolutely right in her critique and my friend knew it because she already knew everything she had done wrong with the dress which made it even worse because the critique implied that my friend was stupid as well. What she succeeded in doing is making herself look like a jerk and she insured that she will *NEVER* sew a single official stitch during *this* investiture. > I was told > that my costuming was all wrong because I "did it > wrong" and didn't I know that "true SCA members sew > everything by hand." I have a reputation in my Barony for sewing everything by hand, it's kind of joke, "Oh, that's Merouda for ya". One friend nearly choked on her mead when she found out my hood was polarfleece. *LOL* I love that one. I seriously doubt that very many SCA members sew every stitch of every garment by hand, if any of us do. I am sorry that you had this experience. Even though the SCA is supposed to be based on Chivalry, Courtesy, etc, sometimes you just can't take the rude out folks. The good news is that 99% of the players would never think of such a thing. > Now, while I know this isn't > true of all, these are the things people tend to hear > more loudly. Sad but true. However, I think that if someone came up and said "My lady, that is Lovely fabric, I wish I could find such nice things" even though the fabric is *perfect* for Italian Renn and they made a Viking underdress and over tunic out of it, you would remember such a gracious compliment. -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:32:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13332 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:32:28 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23377; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:36:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA20149 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:33:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA20091 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:33:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion (209-122-246-43.s551.tnt1.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com [209.122.246.43]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA13705 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <008c01becfaa$086ffee0$2bf67ad1@pavilion> From: "Andrea Gideon" To: References: <19990716161835.29832.rocketmail@web807.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Garb Snarks wasRe: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:41:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > -Poster: Sarah Toney > > The other thing about this is, unfortunately, there > are some people who are rude about it... I was told > that my costuming was all wrong because I "did it > wrong" and didn't I know that "true SCA members sew > everything by hand." Now, while I know this isn't > true of all, these are the things people tend to hear > more loudly. > > Sarah Where do you play with the SCA? I've lived in 3 different Kingdoms and have been active for about 10 years and have never had anyone make that sort of comment to me, nor have I witnssed anyone making those sort of comments to someone. Andrea _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:32:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13335 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:32:29 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23934; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:39:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA20964 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:37:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m8.boston.juno.com (m8.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.196]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA20926 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:37:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EFNPUNQ8; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:35:49 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com Cc: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question Message-ID: <19990716.081623.4783.0.cley@juno.com> References: <19990716161835.29832.rocketmail@web807.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-13,15-17,20-21,23-27 From: cynthia j ley Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:35:49 EDT Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: cynthia j ley On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Sarah Toney writes: > >-Poster: Sarah Toney > >The other thing about this is, unfortunately, there >are some people who are rude about it... I was told >that my costuming was all wrong because I "did it >wrong" and didn't I know that "true SCA members sew >everything by hand." In the immortal words of Rowan Atkinson, "Utter Crap." Now, while I know this isn't true of all, these are the things people tend to hear >more loudly. It's not true of many. I know numerous SCA costumers who use their machines for the work that can be machined--some things have to be done by hand, and those are. Who has the time to be a purist? i sew by hand, but then, I'ld hardly call myself a costumer, and I don't own a machine. ;) Arlys ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:33:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13342 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:33:45 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21510; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:21:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA16872 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:19:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web807.mail.yahoo.com (web807.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.67]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id KAA16830 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:19:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19990716161835.29832.rocketmail@web807.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.247.217.34] by web807.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:18:35 EDT Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:18:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Sarah Toney Subject: Re: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Sarah Toney The other thing about this is, unfortunately, there are some people who are rude about it... I was told that my costuming was all wrong because I "did it wrong" and didn't I know that "true SCA members sew everything by hand." Now, while I know this isn't true of all, these are the things people tend to hear more loudly. Sarah --- Merouda the True of Bornover wrote: > > -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > > > > appeared to be new to the Society, so I politely > tried to talk with her about her garb. I am known > to be quite > > (I've been told TOO) polite, but she didn't take > my attempt at conversation very well. > > Is it possible that she had been warned that there > were people who would come up to a person and > proceed to tell > them that their clothing isn't right? I know that > I, as a newbie, was warned about this very thing. > Sometimes > it's best to wait until they ask you. :) > > -- > Cynthia Long > Merouda the True of Bornover > Barony of Madrone > Kingdom of An Tir > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:35:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13351 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:35:16 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19635; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:06:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA13797 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:04:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA13786 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:04:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25528 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378F586B.45F7D28C@serv.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:06:03 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing References: <1865cc3f.24c091d5@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > BTW: I have read a couple of those sources (MOL book, etc.) that mention > finishing some medieval seams with strips of silk or linen. But (perhaps it's > just my slow wit) I've never been able to figure out what this means. There are a couple pictures in the Museum of London Textiles and Clothing (MOL) book that show quite clearly how the silk facings were applied. In one case, a neckline, the slim strip of silk was stitched on top of the turned back edge with two parallel rows of running stitch. On the inside of the garment. In a second case, a sleeve buttonhole edge, the silk was also on the inside of the garment. The silk was caught with the needle at the same time as the garment fabric when the tablet woven edging (not the same as trim at all) was applied. It was further secured when the button holes were sewn. No other attachment was used. > As for the keyhole neck -- well, I've always done it as a contrasting facing > that's topstitched to the front of the garment. But I was taught that as a > newbie, and I always assumed that it was an attractive but modern solution. > It's been many years since I've done one. The truth is, we don't really know. There just isn't that much extant evidence available. Illuminations can show us that there was trim or some type of embellishment around a neckhole but it can't show us if it was embroidery, card woven trim, fabric, etc. And it can't show us whether or not the garment fabric was turned outside and covered by the trim or not. Several of the bog findings don't appear to my eyes to have any trim around the neck at all. And the MOL book has very little. There is one tiny scrap of silk tablet woven trim but it doesn't tell us how it was attached and to what it was attached. Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:37:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13367 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:37:58 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17302; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:49:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA03073 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:18:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA02924 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:18:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem117.barney.pol.co.uk ([195.92.7.117] helo=herimats) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 1159ka-0005Lk-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:18:13 +0100 Message-ID: <001701becf9e$6f21efb0$75075cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: <000001becf91$5eec3ae0$9e8514d1@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: H-COST: Tewkesbury Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:16:21 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" > -Poster: "Cathy Harding" > > Are there any no-battle scenes? Like campsites, camp kitchens, clothing > closeups? > > Maeve I am sorry no apart from the odd one or two that are already posted . This is not a good event for this, even more so as I arrived late and the camping areas were completely deserted as everybody was then assembling for the battle; Afterwards I had to leave quickly to get a US guest to the Abbey. Funnily enough my actual brief for this event was " lots of action pics none of those sitting around the cooking pot poses that we usually have" In the selection posted I have chosen the better ones for showing of the costume. amongst other criteria...so many different people to please. We have a selection of campsite/med market pics from last year's Robin Hood Festival. I could post a few when I get the chance. We have a big event coming up at Keddlestone hall for our bank holiday weekend, I am working on a stall for the whole three days. It is easier to get pics when in costume so I am hopeful. Dave _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:38:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13379 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:38:04 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14877; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:35:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA06987 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:33:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA06950 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:32:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA24773 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378F5105.F1272FA1@serv.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:34:29 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question References: <199907160358.XAA04727@smtp.leading.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > appeared to be new to the Society, so I politely tried to talk with her about her garb. I am known to be quite > (I've been told TOO) polite, but she didn't take my attempt at conversation very well. Is it possible that she had been warned that there were people who would come up to a person and proceed to tell them that their clothing isn't right? I know that I, as a newbie, was warned about this very thing. Sometimes it's best to wait until they ask you. :) -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:40:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13445 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:40:43 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05648; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:58:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA08187 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:56:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA08174 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:56:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem8.barney.pol.co.uk ([195.92.7.8] helo=herimats) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 115CDM-0001e6-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:56:06 +0100 Message-ID: <002601becfb4$7ce1ac60$08075cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: <199907160358.XAA04727@smtp.leading.net> <378F5105.F1272FA1@serv.net> Subject: Re: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:55:29 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" > > -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > Is it possible that she had been warned that there were people who would come up to a person and proceed to tell > them that their clothing isn't right? I know that I, as a newbie, was warned about this very thing. Sometimes > it's best to wait until they ask you. :) What has happened to the Uk anchronism police this year? Well and last year. They have been very quiet. Is it because everything is now correct. We used to run a competition for the person who got the most tellings off in a year. There was a prize and then we discovered that some people were deliberately introducing anachronisms and parading up and down in full view of known members of the AP in order to get points so we stopped it , the prize that is. Maybe this why there have been less reports; I doubt if they have given up enjoying themselves by spoiling other peoples fun. Perhaps the clarion call of "excuse me , but WHO exactly are you supposed to be" is now a thing of the past. Destined to the re-enactment with the attitudes that one very large and famous re-enactment society had for disabled people; suggesting they stayed at home and made little models. I have seen people in tears after attacks by the AP , having spent hours and hours putting together a costume. I have also seen the other side of the coin. At an event three years ago which I will not identify I was able to stop a female colleague from taking a swing at two members of the AP; However I was not able to continue my peacemaking duties as another encounter ensued and a member of the AP spent the rest of the event wearing a not very period dressing over a split lip. Not that I would recommend such actions; However there are other ways of dealing with them, true to most periods; the treatment for women who say too much is called "Scold's Bridle" I believe they are called something worse in the US. Right Garb snarks just spotted in it a later posting; great ! Dave _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:42:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13521 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:42:22 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04202; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:47:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA05930 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:45:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.vci.net (smtp.vci.net [207.162.160.12]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA05863 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:45:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vci.net (ppp-175-107.vci.net [207.162.175.107]) by smtp.vci.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA30124 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:45:06 -0500 Message-ID: <378F7017.14B54ED7@vci.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:47:04 -0500 From: "schuck@vci.net" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr-FR,de,ru,es-AR,sv MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing References: <199907161634.KAA20255@indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "schuck@vci.net" What is the MOL book, please? _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:42:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13524 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:42:23 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04406; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:48:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA06257 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:46:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zeus.directcon.net (zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA06210 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:46:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r4p16.directcon.net [206.170.184.65]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA18777 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907161746.KAA18777@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: H-COST: Badmouthing other costumers Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson ) >and then proceeded to *physically* go over my friends bodice and what >was wrong with it, "The fit is all wrong" "the fabric..." etc etc etc, >pulling at fabric here and turning her there. She was absolutely >right in her critique and my friend knew it because she already knew >everything she had done wrong with the dress which made it even worse >because the critique implied that my friend was stupid as well. WHY do people think this kind of thing will make them look better? In my younger, nastier days, my favorite hobby was lambasting other people's costumes (while wearing my own lurex-trimmed Elizabethans with the grommets up the back, mind you) but at least I did it behind their backs. (come to think of it, that didn't make things any better.) My worst example of this happened to me when my sister was working at a vintage clothing store in San Francisco. A customer started telling her what a hot Ren Faire costumer she was. Naturally, my sister said, "Oh, do you know my sister, Margo?" The woman said "Oh yes, I know her.." .and proceded to trash me and my costuming. So extensively, as a matter of fact, that the store owner, who was present, backed out on a large project for which he was planning to commision me. Her little exercise in self esteem cost me $5000. Ah, karma. Incidentally, the person in question is on this list. I don't know if she ever thought about possible consequences, but maybe next time she will. That's when I gave up my habit of costume snarking. These days, I keep my mouth shut unless someone specifically says "What did I do wrong on this costume, and how can I fix it?" Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:43:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13530 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:43:43 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03506; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:42:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA04758 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:39:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hpdmgaaa.compuserve.com (dh-img-1.compuserve.com [149.174.206.131]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA04645 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:39:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpdmgaaa.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id NAA13138 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:38:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:37:36 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Boneing UK To: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907161337_MC2-7D46-698C@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id OAA13530 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson >Where do you get this from? I buy it trade with a load of othe items, as far as I know they only do trade, but if you want some I could get some if you wanted Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:43:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13533 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:43:44 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03179; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:40:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA04429 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:38:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA04418 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:38:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion (209-122-205-162.s162.tnt4.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com [209.122.205.162]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA25148 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:45:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <003801becfb3$19a39880$a2cd7ad1@pavilion> From: "Andrea Gideon" To: References: <19990716161835.29832.rocketmail@web807.mail.yahoo.com> <008c01becfaa$086ffee0$2bf67ad1@pavilion> <378F6614.776E8E99@serv.net> Subject: Re: Garb Snarks wasRe: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:46:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > Please don't assume that because you haven't experienced this in your neck of > the woods that it doesn't happen there and that because you know of one instance > that it happened somewhere else that it *does* happen *there*. I wasn't assuming that it doesn't happen, I wanted to know where it DOES happen. Everyone talks about how they've heard of someone saying this, that and the other, but know one has ever really been the vicitm or witnessed it firsthand. The poster then replied that she actually didn't play with the SCA, she just heard that thiat was how people in the SCA are. Andrea _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:43:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13536 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:43:46 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28981; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:14:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA28461 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:12:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web801.mail.yahoo.com (web801.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.61]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id LAA28450 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:12:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19990716171624.25174.rocketmail@web801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.247.217.34] by web801.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:16:24 EDT Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:16:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Sarah Toney Subject: Re: Garb Snarks wasRe: H-COST: Sideless surcotes question To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Sarah Toney Actually, I have never played with the SCA... I took this comment to be common of many of the players and chose not to go... I have since re-thought my stance on it and would love to play... but alas I have other things to do... mostly being a Noble in NERO instead. ;-) Incidentally, the person who said this to me had come to a NERO event where *I* do the costuming. Sarah --- Andrea Gideon wrote: > > -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > > > > -Poster: Sarah Toney > > > > The other thing about this is, unfortunately, > there > > are some people who are rude about it... I was > told > > that my costuming was all wrong because I "did it > > wrong" and didn't I know that "true SCA members > sew > > everything by hand." Now, while I know this isn't > > true of all, these are the things people tend to > hear > > more loudly. > > > > Sarah > Where do you play with the SCA? I've lived in 3 > different Kingdoms and have > been active for about 10 years and have never had > anyone make that sort of > comment to me, nor have I witnssed anyone making > those sort of comments to > someone. > Andrea > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 15:01:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13841 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:01:02 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24915; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:13:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA07432 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:11:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA07397 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:11:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00751 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378F9237.EDD8DD4A@serv.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:12:40 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > Just a minor note: there are now six books in the series. I saw the newest one last night. It > is on pilgrim badges and other cast-metal items. Very cool! And yes, these books are a > godsend-- they are often the only chance we have to see pictures of extant items. The only > thing better is seeing the actual item itself! Yes! Thank you. I saw that a couple months ago. Fantastic. What really spiked my attention was that some of the badges are downright obscene. All kinds of little pewter badges with phallic symbols and people in "unusual" (*laugh*) positions. Amazing. I'd never have imagined that the medieval mind would have such fun with sexual humor. -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 15:04:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13935 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:03:20 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25181; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:15:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA07848 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:13:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA07817 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:13:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00761 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378F92C1.13238A78@serv.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:14:57 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing References: <24139935.24c0d3f4@aol.com> <378F8519.CD0B7D66@flash.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > The Stationery Office (http://www.tsonline.co.uk/) shows it in print (£32). I > didn't check all the books in the series. Excellent source! Thanks. But remember, when these are sold out that's that. The Museum Publications Department told me that they are not printing any more editions at this time. You can hope that the popularity of the books will prompt them to print another edition. -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 15:44:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA14577 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:44:03 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02471; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:56:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA18292 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:45:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA18159 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:44:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28916 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378F7DF7.4947753E@serv.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:46:16 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing References: <24139935.24c0d3f4@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > > The _Museum of London Textiles and Clothing_ book published by the Museum > of London but now out of print. > Could someone in the UK confirm if this book is truly out-of-print? I recently purchased my copy of MOL Shoes & Pattens directly from the Museum. They told me that these books were no longer in print, but they just happened to still have a few copies of the Shoes & Pattens (thank god!!). If their usual distributors don't have them now, they won't have them later. FWIW, Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 17:04:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA15848 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:04:28 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14601; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:16:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA01485 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:14:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-05.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-05.core.theplanet.net [194.152.65.205]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA01459 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:14:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem1.tweety.pol.co.uk ([195.92.6.129] helo=herimats) by svr-a-05.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 115GFJ-0001Kn-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:14:22 +0100 Message-ID: <005601becfd8$917397f0$81065cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: <24139935.24c0d3f4@aol.com> <378F7DF7.4947753E@serv.net> Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:54:42 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" > I recently purchased my copy of MOL Shoes & Pattens directly from the Museum. > They told me that these books were no longer in print, but they just happened to > still have a few copies of the Shoes & Pattens (thank god!!). If their usual > distributors don't have them now, they won't have them later. > If anyone is currently looking for this ; try The Museum of Footwear in Northampton (uk) I have a recollection of seeing several copies and can only think that it was there. Dave _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 18:39:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA17263 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:39:44 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27989; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:52:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA18781 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:49:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.pacifier.com (root@smtp.pacifier.com [199.2.117.96]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id RAA18748 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:49:42 -0600 (MDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com Received: from grendal2 (ip201.van19.pacifier.com [216.65.141.201]) by smtp.pacifier.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA04339 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907162349.QAA04339@smtp.pacifier.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:53:35 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Garb Snarks.. Off Topic Priority: normal In-reply-to: <378F7581.91845594@serv.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com >>. The poster then replied that she actually didn't play with the > > SCA, she just heard that thiat was how people in the SCA are. > > Which is another reason why I don't think we should get into "It happens in > AnTir but not in Meridies" type of conversation. That statement would be as > false as the statement that "that is how most of us are in the SCA". Giving one > particular area a reputation for this type of discourtesy is at best > misleading. It is human nature for someone to play the one-up-manship game in > every location on earth in every group, in every faction, in every century. It > isn't something that happens solely in the SCA, as the first poster pointed out, > and it isn't something that happens solely in one region of the SCA. People are > people everywhere you go. Lordy, a hearty amen to that! I've been involved in many forums (SCA, Costume Con, SciFi, here, etc) and one of the things I've found is that *every* group has some of it. Sometimes it will be rampant, sometimes subtle. It's still there. (And it's not just in recreational groups. It happens in work places as well. And it's not just women doing it. Some of the most major discourtesies I've had done to me of this sort have been from men.) If you don't like the people around you, try hanging with a different group within the main group. Just like there are discourteous people everywhere, you can also find people of similar interests who are kind, courteous, etc. Avoiding a group for one or two bad experiences will just keep your from finding those people you want to be around. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 20:11:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA18816 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:11:16 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07373; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:23:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA00578 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:21:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hpdmgaaa.compuserve.com (dh-img-1.compuserve.com [149.174.206.131]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA00562 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:21:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpdmgaaa.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id VAA02448 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:20:13 -0400 From: Cat Devereaux Subject: H-COST: AlterYears Eliz. Corset Patern Sizing To: "h-costume@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907162120_MC2-7D45-3A20@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id UAA18816 Status: O -Poster: Cat Devereaux A couple of weeks back there was a discussion on pattern sizing, specifically corsets. Here's a forward from AlterYears. -Cat- ********************************** To those of you discussing the sizing on Alter Years Patterns: Janet Anderson passed parts of the discussion on to me as I am the pattern’s designer. Every person is built slightly differently and when I was first creating the size chart for these patterns I discovered that every pattern company I found had a different set of measurements listed as their standard. I took each of those in to consideration along with the American Standard Retail sizing charts out of a book called The Manufacturers Handbook which is widely used as a training manual for the garment industry. I then attempted to come up with a viable size chart for the Alter Years pattern line. I am afraid that the Standard American Body is a fallacy. Since historical patterns are usually much more fitted than modern clothing there is almost always some sort of alteration necessary to these patterns in order for them to fit the modern body the way they should. To take the initial question specifically: The top of the corset when completed should sit just above the center line of your breast. The bottom point of the corset should sit approximately two inches below the belly button or at a place most comfortable to the individual wearer. The side seam length measurement method in the pattern usually assures that fit along with sitting the top edge at the side far enough down out of the armhole as to not strangle the wearer. Many people are very sensitive under the arm and cut that even lower to accommodate. All of these very fitted patterns need to be customized to each individual taste, body shape and comfort. If you are more comfortable with your corset higher under your arms and you have a high bust by all means make it only as short as you feel you should. You can always cut the underarm down lower after you have put together the two main corset pieces. I hope this information is useful to you and it helps you to properly fit the corset to your own preferences. Many thanks to those of you who had such nice things to say about the pattern line. Sincerely, Robin Pavlosky Alter Years Pattern Designer _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 21:27:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA19971 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:27:01 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14837; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:39:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA08795 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:37:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA08778 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:37:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from radfordp (1Cust119.tnt20.sfo3.da.uu.net [208.254.224.119]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA26882 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907170237.TAA26882@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> From: "Diane Perry (Melangell)" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:50:59 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing Priority: normal In-reply-to: <005701becfbf$dd2400e0$df0110ac@dfenwick> Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Diane Perry (Melangell)" > > > > I'm not sure if this book is actually out-of-print. The difficulty in > > getting this book (and other from the MOL) is that they have changed US > > distributors several times over the last few years, and each time they do > the > > "old" distributor lists the books as no-longer-available. > > > > Could someone in the UK confirm if this book is truly out-of-print? > > Thanks > > I had no luck trying to get them direct from HMSO. > > I happen to be friends with the owners of Green Duck books, and asked them about a month ago about getting the Dress Accessories book my MOL. This is what they told me. HMSO (Her Majesties Stationary Office) has been dissolved. It is now The Stationary Office. Some of the books previously printed by HMSO will not be carried by the new Stationary Office. The MOL books will not be reprinted. When the available copies are sold out, that is it. Just try to obtain a copy of the new hardback (will not be out in paperback) book on Household Items. It is too bad since these books are wonderful and I only have 3 of them. Diane Perry _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 21:30:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA20065 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:30:45 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15235; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:43:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA09348 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:42:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mongoose.slip.net (mongoose.slip.net [207.171.193.14]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA09321 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:41:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [207.171.230.155] (helo=default) by mongoose.slip.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #4) id 115KQB-0000BS-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:41:51 -0700 X-Sender: cjcannon@pop.slip.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:41:58 -0700 To: h-costume@indra.com From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Subject: H-COST: Fwd: Garb 'snarks' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-Id: Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id VAA20065 Status: O -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" >I wrote to Andrea to tell her my personal, firsthand story. I am NOT a costuming person, as any number of folk could tell you. I sew to have clothes to wear. However, NO ONE deserves this kind of treatment from ANYONE, and especially NOT in a Society where Chivalry and Courtoisie are supposed to be an integral part of what we do. imnsho only, of course. Andrea, I apologize that you will see this twice, but I wanted people to know it does indeed happen. I will make sure I am never at fault for being the costuming critic of this ilk. Carol, aka: Gráinne ingen Domnaill Ildánaig, Cynagua, West > >>Dear Lady, How fortunate you are! I went to a class on Documentation at one Collegium. I was wearing a simple yellow overgown. Someone who shall remain nameless, but was dressed in hideously garish [and therefore very likely a 'period' combo] colors in full Elizabethans, who was sitting amongst folk who were obviously her good and longtime friends, from across the table looked down her nose at me, and drawled, "Only Jews wore yellow in period." As I was a foreign language major and knew that was not true for ALL of Europe, I nearly opened mouth...but thought better of it. Who needs permanent enemies? I came within a heartbeat of responding: "You have a problem with my people, milady?"... and going on to tell her that while the sumptary laws in her small area of the world might have been thus, it was thus and so in this city in Germany, and thus and such in that area of the British Isles...and... . Those persons unfortunately do exist. However, one thing that often diffuses/confuses them is to start asking them questions... . They become so involved in helping educate the poor, ignorant creature that they forget to be snide. >> Gráinne ingen Domnaill Ildánaig _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 21:35:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA20130 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:35:04 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15682; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:48:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA09948 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:46:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA09939 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:46:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from c59303a ([24.4.53.172]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990717024620.FJZG9024.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@c59303a> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:46:20 -0700 Message-ID: <00f901becffe$a5304740$ac350418@mckiny1.tx.home.com> From: "Franchesca Havas" To: References: <24139935.24c0d3f4@aol.com> <378F7DF7.4947753E@serv.net> <005601becfd8$917397f0$81065cc3@herimats> Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:41:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" I went to the First site you all mentions see them for sale there and just ordered the entire series. 300.00!!! But I am convinced that she who dies with the most books WINS! Buahhhhhahahahah Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas motto: Numquam scribae ridente fide ----- Original Message ----- From: dave;editors(Heritage Matters) To: Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 4:54 PM Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing : : -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" : : : > I recently purchased my copy of MOL Shoes & Pattens directly from the : Museum. : > They told me that these books were no longer in print, but they just : happened to : > still have a few copies of the Shoes & Pattens (thank god!!). If their : usual : > distributors don't have them now, they won't have them later. : > : If anyone is currently looking for this ; try The Museum of Footwear in : Northampton (uk) I have a recollection of seeing several copies and can only : think that it was there. : Dave : : _________________________________________________________________ : To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com : with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME : _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 16 23:56:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA22367 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:56:45 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26391; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:09:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id XAA24318 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:07:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id XAA24306 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:07:38 -0600 (MDT) From: RobesOf@aol.com Received: from RobesOf@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6RLGa03794 (31) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 01:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <83634543.24c1696a@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 01:06:50 EDT Subject: H-COST: Off the costuming subject/ On the etiquette subject To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com My off the subject $.02: It seems many (or even all) of us have had someone criticize our hard work, looks, personality or whatever at some time or another in life. It is not pleasant, but its not going away either. My humble suggestion to those who would like to learn how to deal with others they "feel" are rude, is to read some etiquette books. Yes, although I often think it is everyone else in the world and not me who needs it, I am wrong. A good etiquette book will give all the training you will ever need on how to gracefully handle awkward positions that others may have unintentionally put you in. I prefer Miss Manners as she has a wild sense of humor as well as good advice. Try one of her new books "Miss Manners Guide for the Turn of the Millennium". You will learn to look good, make others look good and laugh it off later. Hope this helps some of you. Now let's get back to talking about the good stuff...costumes :-D Erica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 17 08:04:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA30511 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:04:16 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA24095; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:18:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA23254 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:16:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA23244 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:16:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem14.tweety.pol.co.uk ([195.92.6.142] helo=herimats) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 115UKb-0006C6-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:16:45 +0100 Message-ID: <003f01bed056$a223c290$8e065cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: Subject: Re: H-COST: Fwd: Garb 'snarks' Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:11:56 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Subject: H-COST: Fwd: Garb 'snarks' -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" .. and going on to tell her that while the sumptary laws in her small area of the world might have been thus, it was thus and so in this city in Germany, and thus and such in that area of the British Isles...and... Carol, Would you care to tell us something on this subject; It sounds fascinating and I must admit ignorance. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 17 08:44:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA31144 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:44:46 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA27273; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:59:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA26771 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:57:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA26762 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:57:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.217.210.71] (ell215.acadia.net [205.217.210.71]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA19398 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:57:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: pulliam@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:58:35 -0500 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Subject: H-COST: museum of london book Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <<> Could someone in the UK confirm if this book is truly out-of-print? > Thanks I had no luck trying to get them direct from HMSO.>> They still had plenty of copies at the Museum of London bookshop this spring (May). Deborah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 17 09:23:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA31774 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:23:01 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29695; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:37:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA00331 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:35:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mongoose.slip.net (mongoose.slip.net [207.171.193.14]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA00310 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 08:35:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [207.171.230.157] (helo=default) by mongoose.slip.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #4) id 115VZ2-0002ZH-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:35:45 -0700 X-Sender: cjcannon@pop.slip.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 07:35:47 -0700 To: h-costume@indra.com From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Subject: Re: H-COST: Fwd: Garb 'snarks' In-Reply-To: <003f01bed056$a223c290$8e065cc3@herimats> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 02:11 PM 7/17/99 +0100, you wrote: > >-Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" >Carol, Would you care to tell us something on this subject; It sounds >fascinating and I must admit ignorance. I would if I remembered that much about it. It was over 30 years ago that I studied it. Sumptary laws have to do with who can wear what. The German laws I was reading about involved differences between Geneva and Stuttgart, if I recall rightly. One example is the English laws that forbade persons of less than a certain station to wear more than so many ells of fabric in a shirt--whereupon the Irish began making theirs with as much fabric as they could fit into the sleeves, and resulting in the leines popular at Renaissance Fairs nowadays. Or the forbidding of the wearing of the kilt. Others had to do with forcing Jews, prostitutes and other "undesirables" to wear a certain color, so that they would be easily identifiable. Still others made certain bird feathers the province of those with certain titles. Those latter, I know NOTHING of...only have heard that they existed. I'm certain Susan Carroll-Clark and some of the others here are more capable of answering your question than I. Carol _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 17 10:10:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA32459 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:10:17 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02930; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:25:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA05368 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:22:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (tele-post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.20]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA05334; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:22:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([194.222.199.37]) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 115WIa-000Pe9-0K; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 15:22:49 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:12:39 +0100 To: h-costume@indra.com Cc: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: H-COST: Veiling In-Reply-To: <199907151646_MC2-7D2F-C5FD@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.03a <$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD> Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Jean Waddie In message <199907151646_MC2-7D2F-C5FD@compuserve.com>, Melanie Wilson writes > >-Poster: Melanie Wilson > >>I'm a belly dancer and there are a lot of suppliers for veils. Is this >what >you are looking for? If so, I'm happy to send you some web sites. > >Me too but I'm afraid not, it is for wearing over ones face with a hat, net >like but not with hugh holes like modern veiling. > >Mel If you don't want modern nylon-net bridal veiling, would silk veiling do? It's very soft and limp - almost cobwebby. I'm going to recommend a place, but of course I have neither a London phone book nor A-Z here - try McCulloch and Wallace, I think it's Duke Street, London. It's down one of the streets just opposite John Lewis on Oxford Street. they do supplies for schools and art colleges, and they should be able to show you samples of all sorts of things if you describe what you want. I should think they would do mail order, if you find their phone number. Sorry to be so unhelpful about addresses etc! Jean -- Jean Waddie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 17 10:10:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA32458 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:10:17 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02927; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:25:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA05370 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:23:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA05333 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:22:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([194.222.199.37]) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 115WIa-000G1P-0A for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 15:22:48 +0000 Message-ID: <+C07fBAZjJk3IwqB@montgomerie.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 15:53:13 +0100 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: H-COST: "Aristocrats" on BBC1 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.03a <$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD> Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Jean Waddie In message , KATE M BUNTING writes > >-Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" > >Any UK list members watching this series? (It's about the daughters of the Duke >of Richmond from the 1740s onwards.) I'm no expert on 18th cent. fashions but >the general "look" seems excellent to me - but did styles really change so >little between the 1740s and 1760s? All the ladies have worn gowns with saque >(sp?) backs and wide-brimmed hats throughout, with little sense of developing >fashions so far. > >Kate Bunting >Library, University of Derby > Yes, I agree - gorgeous looks, but they are very bad at showing the passage of time. It's not only the clothes, though - in the first episode or two, Caroline's son was born and grew to about five years old, while the youngest sister (I'm not sure if it was Sarah or Cecilia at that point) didn't grow at all, nor even change her dress! I also have to say, it's not the greatest adaptation. If you're interested in the 18th century, read the book, because it gives a really wonderful insight into the lives of the very top in society - both the differences from now and the astonishing similarities. I was disappointed about the costumes, because one of the things I liked most about the recent Vanity Fair was the changing fashions - suddenly I understood how the Jane Austen look developed into the Bronte look, as scene by scene her waistline got lower and tighter and her sleeves got bigger. That was great. Jean -- Jean Waddie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 17 10:15:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA32599 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:15:44 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03535; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:30:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA06125 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:28:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cdale3.midwest.net (cdale3.midwest.net [208.235.1.20]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA06117 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:28:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from talk2meg.midwest.net (jcity-mc4.midwest.net [209.248.2.201]) by cdale3.midwest.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA06270 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:30:23 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907171530.KAA06270@cdale3.midwest.net> From: "Mary-Gayle Jany" To: Subject: H-COST: sumptuary regulations Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:23:43 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Mary-Gayle Jany" Shucks...I can't find the original request for information. However, in '97 I wrote a rather extensive paper on the sumptuary laws governing the color requirements required for prostitutes and Jews, so perhaps I can help with this question. The laws in all European countries required various articles of clothing and colors be worn by prostitutes to 'mark' them from the general population. The same applied to Jewish. I found 34 references between 1158 AD and 1560, which includes London, Venice, Avignon, Arles, Penenas, Castelnaudary, Gloucester, Exeter, Westminster, Beaucaire, Toulouse, Paris, Hull, Dijon, Lyons, Amiens, parts of Germany (specifically Nuremberg, Frauenwirt, And Strasbough), and Florence. I have no doubt that there are numerous other examples. In a nutshell: Prostitutes were forbidden in many locals BY LAW from turning away clients. The two exceptions allowed by law were of lepers and Jewish men, not a pretty comment. In Germany, prostitutes were required by law to wear a yellow band of cloth in 1493. In numerous locals, red became the color of choice to identify prostitutes. France seems particularly set on requiring red. Meg _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 17 10:40:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA00291 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:40:26 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05788; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:54:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA08587 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:53:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.12]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA08581 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:52:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem47.hulk.pol.co.uk ([195.92.6.47] helo=herimats) by svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 115Wlk-0000ha-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:52:57 +0100 Message-ID: <001101bed06c$73df6c20$2f065cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: <199907171530.KAA06270@cdale3.midwest.net> Subject: Re: H-COST: sumptuary regulations Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:52:02 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Meg, Thank You. Is your own paper available anywhere? Or is there any sources that you would suggest? I am particularly interested in the English cities 1400 on. Dave > -Poster: "Mary-Gayle Jany" > > Shucks...I can't find the original request for information. However, > in '97 I wrote a rather extensive paper on the sumptuary laws governing the > color requirements required for prostitutes and Jews, so perhaps I can help > with this question. > ETC> > Meg > _________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 17 10:45:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA00414 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:45:55 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06490; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:00:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA09200 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:58:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.12]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA09191 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:58:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem19.hulk.pol.co.uk ([195.92.6.19] helo=herimats) by svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 115WrR-0000nd-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:58:50 +0100 Message-ID: <002101bed06d$465d87e0$2f065cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: Subject: Re: H-COST: Fwd: Garb 'snarks' Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:58:15 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Thanks anyway.I would appreciate any leads or suggested reading that anyone on the list may care to suggest. Dave > > -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" > > I would if I remembered that much about it. It was over > 30 years ago that I studied it. Sumptary laws have to do with who can wear etv _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 17 11:34:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01218 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:34:27 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10468; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:49:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA14537 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:47:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.greatbasin.net (mail.greatbasin.net [207.228.35.39]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA14532 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:47:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from danhome (rno-max5-40.gbis.net [207.228.61.104]) by mail.greatbasin.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA07676 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <006d01bed074$16ad6a40$683de4cf@danhome> From: "Dan Fenwick" To: References: Subject: Re: H-COST: museum of london book Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 09:47:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Dan Fenwick" > They still had plenty of copies at the Museum of London bookshop this > spring (May). > > > Deborah Thank you. I just called and ordered a copy that they say they'll ship out tomorrow. They are also going to send me a publications catalogue. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 17 12:52:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA02492 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:52:51 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16435; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:06:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA22851 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:04:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cdale3.midwest.net (cdale3.midwest.net [208.235.1.20]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA22838 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:04:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from talk2meg.midwest.net (jcity-mc23.midwest.net [209.248.2.220]) by cdale3.midwest.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA28875 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:06:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907171806.NAA28875@cdale3.midwest.net> From: "Mary-Gayle Jany" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: sumptuary regulations Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:59:57 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Mary-Gayle Jany" Dave: If you're near a university library, you'll have good luck. Do a cross reference search including prostitution, sumptuary laws, and Jewish. I note that your address is in the United Kingdom. You have (?) access to a start far beyond my humble means. Try the following titles: Allison, K. J., ed. The City of Kingdom upon Hull: A History of the County of York: East Riding. vol. 1. London: Oxford UP, 1969. Goldberg, P. J. P. Women, Work, and Life Cycle in a Medieval Economy: Women in York and Yorkshire c. 1300-1520. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1992. Karras, Ruth Mazo. Common Women: Prostitution and Sexuality in Medieval England. Oxford: Oxford UP, 1996. There's also a reprint of Stow's Annales of England available, but I don't remember whether it covers the years in which you are interested. Do you read German well? Meg ---------- > From: dave;editors(Heritage Matters) > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: H-COST: sumptuary regulations > Date: Saturday, July 17, 1999 10:52 AM > > > -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" > > > Meg, Thank You. > Is your own paper available anywhere? Or is there any sources that you would > suggest? > I am particularly interested in the English cities 1400 on. > Dave > > -Poster: "Mary-Gayle Jany" > > > > Shucks...I can't find the original request for information. However, > > in '97 I wrote a rather extensive paper on the sumptuary laws governing > the > > color requirements required for prostitutes and Jews, so perhaps I can > help > > with this question. > > > ETC> > > Meg > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 17 13:17:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02871 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:17:26 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18675; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:31:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA25378 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:29:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from deimos.worldonline.nl (deimos.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.136]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA25355 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:28:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from worldonline.nl (leda.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.135]) by deimos.worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA10925 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:28:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pc2 (vp181-33.worldonline.nl [195.241.181.33]) by worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA18563 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:28:51 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199907171828.UAA18563@worldonline.nl> From: "Henk 't Jong" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Cotehardie Conundrum/Blanket Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:30:27 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Henk 't Jong" Henk & Pauline 't Jong tScapreel Medieval Advisors Dordrecht, Netherlands Hi all, Robin wrote: > :-) I'm guessing Henk is remembering a question I sent him some months > ago. (If you answered me, Henk, I never got it, and I'd still love your > opinion.) You haven't because I'm still searching and haven't found anything defininite yet. I've been wondering whether there's any solid evidence for linen > being worn as the primary (visible) fabric of a gown or other body garment > -- we know it was used for undergarments (chemises) and linings of body > garments, but I haven't found as much evidence for it being used as the > main fabric, despite common assumptions to the contrary. So I'm on the > prowl. > You say: as much. Does that mean you have found some? > Given the ready availability of wool and the small wardrobes of most > people in the 14th century, I doubt many people would go to the expense of > making a linen dress just for those rare hot summer days. I know about prices of cloth in the late 13th to 15th c, but I can tell you that linen was a hell of a lot cheaper than wool in our region (Holland, Flanders, Northern France). That is: except for the fine kerchief linen of Doornik, Reims or Paris, of course, but that wasn't used for underwear or linings. Incidentally: do any of you know if 'blanket' is a woollen or linen (white or light coloured: blanc=white) cloth. It was used for cotte and chaperon linings in the early 14th c. In my opinion it can't have been a thick roughed woollen cloth to make blankets from, this was called fustian at the time. But what else could it have been? Any suggestions? I'm not even so > sure linen would make that much of a difference in European temperatures > -- I experimented with wearing identical dresses in cotton, linen, and > wool in 90-degree heat last summer (far worse than is usually seen in > Europe), and the wool was actually the most comfortable! Line it with > linen and you get the best of all worlds. A lined woollen cotte is very hot in even our summers; I tried it. It works better in winter. A linen cotte works OK. > I've found some indications that linen was worn routinely for summer > garments in sunny Italy, So why not in Northern Europe where linen was cheap and plentiful? and I wonder if the paler palette of Italian > clothing seen in paintings reflects an increased use of linen, which does > not hold deep colors like wool does. Most well known Italian paintings of the middle ages (Giotto, Cimabue, Martini) are done on walls in fresco technique; this has paler colours than miniatures because they are fused with chalks. Italian miniatures are every bit as colourful as Northern European ones as are altar paintings in tempera. This is another topic for another > year -- but I'll happily collect references to linen use in Northern and > Western Europe if anyone runs across anything. Looking forward to your results. I'll keep you and the list posted if and when I find something, Henk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 17 14:43:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA04264 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:43:36 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25597; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:57:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA04296 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:55:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA04270 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:54:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from home.com ([24.0.170.52]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990717195451.FTSA17489.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@home.com> for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:54:51 -0700 Message-ID: <3790DDE0.E4CF7A42@home.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:47:44 -0700 From: Russell Hedges Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Newbie - and the Spanish American War References: <199907151746.KAA20198@zeus.directcon.net> <378E2D09.9E815846@serv.net> <012701becef3$7106d300$4709ebd0@default> <378E926A.3CB9BB5E@home.com> <007201becf7f$ea0d9ef0$06075cc3@herimats> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Russell Hedges "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" wrote: > > -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > -Poster: Russell Hedges > > > > I am male, so the beautiful gowns are out. > > Are you sure about this. > One of the Societies I belong to , admittedly set up as an antidote to so > many women wearing miltary uniforms at events, only meets once a year; on > which occassion, we all get a chance to put on the frocks. Well. . . . The same frock that looks stunning on a woman would only look silly on a man. I have seen some women who looked really good in uniform, but few men who could do justice to any gown. I appreciate the humor of the idea, but I think if I want laughs, I'll come to a ball as Harpo Marx, my favorite Marxist. Honk honk. Russell Hedges _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 17 15:44:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05311 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 15:44:29 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00837; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:58:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA10030 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:56:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from spamgaad.compuserve.com (as-img-4.compuserve.com [149.174.217.147]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA10020 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:55:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spamgaad.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.1) id QAA03190 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:55:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:55:14 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Veiling To: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907171655_MC2-7D52-98C5@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id PAA05311 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson Thanks Jean Try http://www.bt.com/phonenetuk/ On line UK directory enquires Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 17 15:45:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05319 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 15:45:06 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00964; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:58:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA10116 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:56:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hpdmgaaa.compuserve.com (dh-img-1.compuserve.com [149.174.206.131]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA10111 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:56:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpdmgaaa.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id QAA25910 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 16:55:13 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: MCCULLOCH & WALLIS LTD WHSLE FABRICS, HBDSHRY, To: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907171655_MC2-7D52-98C4@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id PAA05319 Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson MCCULLOCH & WALLIS LTD WHSLE FABRICS, HBDSHRY, 25 Dering St, W1. (0171) 629 0311 3 MCCULLOCH & WALLIS LTD WHSLE FABRICS, HBDSHRY, 25 Dering St, W1. (0171) 409 0725 4 MCCULLOCH & WALLIS LTD WHSLE FABRICS, HBDSHRY FAX. (0171) 491 2481 5 MCCULLOCH & WALLIS LTD WHSLE FABRICS, HBDSHRY FAX. (0171) 491 9578 Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 17 20:07:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA09542 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:07:18 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA22488; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:19:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA03734 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:17:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA03722 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:17:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem57.barney.pol.co.uk ([195.92.7.57] helo=herimats) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 115fZg-0002Ik-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 02:17:04 +0100 Message-ID: <005601bed0bb$42eb4810$39075cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: <199907171806.NAA28875@cdale3.midwest.net> Subject: Re: H-COST: sumptuary regulations Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 02:17:08 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Thank You ; Thus armed I shall venture forth (except for the Karras which I have somewhere and realise that this may have been niggling at the back of my mind when my interest was reborn) The York source will be of great interest German is a no no for me. Thanks again and to every body else that has repsponded dave > > -Poster: "Mary-Gayle Jany" > > Dave: > If you're near a university library, you'll have good luck. Do a > cross reference search including prostitution, sumptuary laws, and Jewish. > I note that your address is in the United Kingdom. You have (?) > access to a start far beyond my humble means. > Try the following titles: > > Allison, K. J., ed. The City of Kingdom upon Hull: A History of the > County of York: East Riding. vol. 1. London: Oxford UP, 1969. > Goldberg, P. J. P. Women, Work, and Life Cycle in a Medieval Economy: > Women in York and Yorkshire c. 1300-1520. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1992. > Karras, Ruth Mazo. Common Women: Prostitution and Sexuality in > Medieval England. Oxford: Oxford UP, 1996. > > There's also a reprint of Stow's Annales of England available, but I > don't remember whether it covers the years in which you are interested. > > Do you read German well? > Meg > > ---------- > > From: dave;editors(Heritage Matters) > > To: h-costume@indra.com > > Subject: Re: H-COST: sumptuary regulations > > Date: Saturday, July 17, 1999 10:52 AM > > > > > > -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" > > > > > > Meg, Thank You. > > Is your own paper available anywhere? Or is there any sources that you > would > > suggest? > > I am particularly interested in the English cities 1400 on. > > Dave > > > -Poster: "Mary-Gayle Jany" > > > > > > Shucks...I can't find the original request for information. > However, > > > in '97 I wrote a rather extensive paper on the sumptuary laws governing > > the > > > color requirements required for prostitutes and Jews, so perhaps I can > > help > > > with this question. > > > > > ETC> > > > Meg > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 09:40:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23068 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 09:39:58 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05939; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 08:50:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA23476 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 08:48:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m8.boston.juno.com (m8.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.196]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA23462 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 08:48:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EFTNGH35; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 10:47:55 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com Cc: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Badmouthing other costumers Message-ID: <19990718.062830.5135.0.cley@juno.com> References: <199907161746.KAA18777@zeus.directcon.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,5-8,10-15 From: cynthia j ley Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 10:47:55 EDT Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: cynthia j ley You know, one thing we compliment most of us can manage, even though the fit might be wrong, the fabric's wrong for the style or period, is, "That color looks great on you." Offering assistance with costuming, done in a friendly and tactful manner, is seldom turned down. Kindness first. And those you talk to get turned on by the idea of making their own garb, rather than turned off. Arlys ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 11:47:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA25126 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:47:21 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03446; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 10:57:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA03559 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 17:47:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from fep2.post.tele.dk (fep2.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.135]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id RAA03549 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 17:47:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from post12.tele.dk ([195.249.230.222]) by fep2.post.tele.dk (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with ESMTP id <19990718165544.WDRF3647.fep2@post12.tele.dk> for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:55:44 +0200 Message-ID: <379205D4.AA52F21B@post12.tele.dk> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:50:28 +0200 From: leif drews X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [da] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: 18th. c. anatomy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6AC4121248610B155C962D4C" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: leif drews --------------6AC4121248610B155C962D4C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello all I know that most of you mostly are involved in the medieval period, but i hope that someone could help me a little again. It is about 18th century stays again. I have made a correct enlargement of a pair of halfboned stays from Norah Waughs book, they are at page 40 in the book, the period is 177oies. When i put my paper pattern to my dresstand, the sides of the bustline is much two high. I dont mean the lowest bustline, it is all right, but the side towards the shoulderstraps. When the boning is done, there will be a wrong angle here, it wont turn inwards towards the body here. My dresstand is a size 38 a small size, but maybe i cant put the corset to this, when the bust isnt flexible like a real person. Should i make a new dresstand and make it flexible with wool? Would that be a better way to do it. Gennerally i think that the bustlines in old stays is much two high. Should i just make a new bustline and ignore the authentity here? The bust must have been changed during the years, maybe it is because they wore stays from small girls, and the bust was forsed upwards all the time. I would love to here from anybody who have experient the same things. It is such a shame that i have nobody to try it on at the moment. Bjarne in Copenhagen. -- Leif Drews Åboulevard 5, 3 th 1635 København V Bjarne Drews Åboulevard 5,3.th 1635 København V tlf. 35 37 13 70 Homepage: http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~DeeDee_Revia/1index.html --------------6AC4121248610B155C962D4C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all
I know that most of you mostly are involved in the medieval period, but i hope that someone could help me a little again.
It is about 18th century stays again.
I have made a correct enlargement of a pair of halfboned stays from Norah Waughs book, they are at page 40 in the book, the period is 177oies.
When i put my paper pattern to my dresstand, the sides of the bustline is much two high.
I dont mean the lowest bustline, it is all right, but the side towards the shoulderstraps.
When the boning is done, there will be a wrong angle here, it wont turn inwards towards the body here.
My dresstand is a size 38 a small size, but maybe i cant put the corset to this, when the bust isnt flexible like a real person.
Should i make a new dresstand and make it flexible with wool? Would that be a better way to do it.
Gennerally i think that the bustlines in old stays is much two high. Should i just make a new bustline and ignore the authentity here? The bust must have been changed during the years, maybe it is because they wore stays from small girls, and the bust was forsed upwards all the time.
I would love to here from anybody who have experient the same things. It is such a shame that i have nobody to try it on at the moment.
Bjarne in Copenhagen.
--
 

Leif Drews
Åboulevard 5, 3 th
1635  København V

Bjarne Drews
Åboulevard 5,3.th
1635 København V

tlf. 35 37 13 70

Homepage: http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph

Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~DeeDee_Revia/1index.html
  --------------6AC4121248610B155C962D4C-- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 12:13:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA25607 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:13:00 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07008; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:24:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA01733 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:21:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA01720 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:21:50 -0600 (MDT) From: BarbMVD@aol.com Received: from BarbMVD@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6YKMa21192 (14366) for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:21:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2762f62b.24c36703@aol.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:21:07 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: 18th. c. anatomy To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: BarbMVD@aol.com I have made literally dozens of stays from this diagram and had no problem at all. If you have enlarged the pattern (which is sometimes necessary) I can only assume that you made an error somewhere along the line. Perhaps you can tell us what you did to adapt this diagram? If memory serves, the original would be about 34 bust & 24 waist in measurement (allow 2" for tightening), but the 14" center front may not require adjustment. Please don't try to invent or redesign. As in any garment patterned from a diagram, please remember that the original was made for an individual who may or may not have been of average proportions. Remember too that the stays not only raise the breast by compressing below the nipple, but the side area you refer to produces shaping and cleavage. Barbara Delorey 18cWoman@onelist.com DAR/Reenactors: http://hometown.aol.com/barbmvd/page/dar.htm Battle Road Clothing: http://www.ziplink.net/~mrkmcc/delory.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 12:16:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA25630 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:16:26 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07704; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:27:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA02184 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:25:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id LAA02178 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 11:25:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199907181725.LAA02178@indra.com> Received: (qmail 11446 invoked from network); 18 Jul 1999 09:36:06 -0600 Received: from ts19-26.boi.cyberhighway.net (HELO kathy) (209.161.10.165) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 18 Jul 1999 09:36:06 -0600 From: "K & J Hopkins" To: Subject: H-COST: Greetings Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 09:41:50 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "K & J Hopkins" I am new to this list server. My name is Kathlene and I live in Boise, ID. I belong to the SCA, but have been interested in costume ever since my mom found a vintage shirt waist for me to wear during the Nevada state centennial celebration in 1965. During Jr. High and High School, I searched the thrift stores for 40's women's suits so, I could wear the jackets with my patched jeans. My mother (again) scored 2 black Victorian petticoats that I wore with my knee high lace-up boots and homemade, India print, midriff blouse. These days my everyday clothes are more conservative. The SCA provides the 'dressing up' outlet. In the SCA, my costuming interest seems to be focusing in on the Italian Renaissance. Oh, I still want to make at least one Tudor and Elizabethan, but Italian Ren is 'it', as far as I am concerned. The problem is, that there just doesn't seem to be much out there in the way of information. Oh, I know about Birbari's, Dress in Italian Painting. I have 2 book searches going for it (the Tracery and Bibliofind). And I have been busy at Kinko's making color copies from giant art books of Italian Painting, to put in a binder. But, if there is anyone else out there with a passion for Italian Ren, and you can point me in some other directions, please let me know. Thank you, Kathlene _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 13:32:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA26879 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:32:43 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15000; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:43:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA09786 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:41:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fep2.post.tele.dk (fep2.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.135]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA09777 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:41:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from post12.tele.dk ([195.249.234.148]) by fep2.post.tele.dk (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with ESMTP id <19990718184228.WMLX3647.fep2@post12.tele.dk> for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:42:28 +0200 Message-ID: <37921EFF.DF234BF2@post12.tele.dk> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:37:52 +0200 From: leif drews X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [da] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: 18th.century anatomy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: leif drews As for the enlargement, i scanned the pattern on my computer and made it smaller. Then i use an "ennascope", a devide like the ones you look on dias pictures with and enlarge the pattern to the size and draw on paper along the lines. The proportions is quite autentic. There is a bone that goes all the way up at the farthest side of the bustline and as far as i can se it will stick up in the air here, and not go into the shoulder. It is very difficult for me to explain for me because i am not that good in english. The original bust on my dresstand needs to be pushed at least 4- 5 cm. upwards if it should fit this corset pattern. It fits all other places, only not here, either i have to cut off 4 cm. from the farthest outside of the bustline, or i must make another dresstand. Thankyou for answering my question. Bjarne. BarbMVD@aol.com skrev: > -Poster: BarbMVD@aol.com > > I have made literally dozens of stays from this diagram and had no problem at > all. If you have enlarged the pattern (which is sometimes necessary) I can > only assume that you made an error somewhere along the line. Perhaps you can > tell us what you did to adapt this diagram? If memory serves, the original > would be about 34 bust & 24 waist in measurement (allow 2" for tightening), > but the 14" center front may not require adjustment. > > Please don't try to invent or redesign. As in any garment patterned from a > diagram, please remember that the original was made for an individual who may > or may not have been of average proportions. Remember too that the stays not > only raise the breast by compressing below the nipple, but the side area you > refer to produces shaping and cleavage. > > Barbara Delorey > 18cWoman@onelist.com > DAR/Reenactors: http://hometown.aol.com/barbmvd/page/dar.htm > Battle Road Clothing: http://www.ziplink.net/~mrkmcc/delory.htm > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME -- Leif Drews Åboulevard 5, 3 th 1635 København V Bjarne Drews Åboulevard 5,3.th 1635 København V tlf. 35 37 13 70 Homepage: http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~DeeDee_Revia/1index.html _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 13:44:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA27042 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:44:17 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15692; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:55:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA11057 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:53:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA11051 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:53:14 -0600 (MDT) From: BarbMVD@aol.com Received: from BarbMVD@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6SCPa05584 (4544) for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:52:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:52:21 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: 18th.century anatomy To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: BarbMVD@aol.com Bjarne - The only suggestion I can make is to try it on human form, or you might cut the garment out of corrugated cardboard and lace it on for a pre-fitting, before making any major changes in the stays. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 13:56:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA27207 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:56:03 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16676; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:07:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA12296 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:05:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fep2.post.tele.dk (fep2.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.135]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA12291 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:05:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from post12.tele.dk ([195.249.234.148]) by fep2.post.tele.dk (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with ESMTP id <19990718190601.WPET3647.fep2@post12.tele.dk> for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:06:01 +0200 Message-ID: <37922486.8B6E51C5@post12.tele.dk> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:01:26 +0200 From: leif drews X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [da] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: 18th. c. stays Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: leif drews What a splendid idea to make a cardboard pre-fitting corset first. Why didnt i think of that before....... Thankyou very much for that idea. Bjarne. Leif Drews Åboulevard 5, 3 th 1635 København V Bjarne Drews Åboulevard 5,3.th 1635 København V tlf. 35 37 13 70 Homepage: http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~DeeDee_Revia/1index.html _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 14:14:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27522 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:14:17 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17960; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:25:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA14126 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:23:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f253.hotmail.com [207.82.251.144]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id NAA14120 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:23:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 17862 invoked by uid 0); 18 Jul 1999 19:22:46 -0000 Message-ID: <19990718192246.17861.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.30.236.232 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:22:45 PDT X-Originating-IP: [209.30.236.232] From: "Karie Mitchell" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Garb Snarks.. Off Topic Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:22:45 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Karie Mitchell" De-lurking for the moment. Allessandre here. I live in Ansteorra, our clothing is what I would consider, "reasonable". We have to make accomodations because of the heat and most of us run around in chitons during the summer months (which runs from mid-May to late September, give or take a couple of weeks). We have some members who do exquisite work, some who do reasonable work, and some that do downright, hideous, I-don't-even-want-to-go-there, work. Our Laurels are reasonable people (and have gotten more so in the past year or two - I think). For us, I believe, most of the "snarkiness" is over. Our Laurels are trying to improve the caliber of authentic clothing here and go out of their way to make pleasing comments and constructive criticism on garments made, especially when the advice is asked for. Does this mean that occasionally someone makes, for whatever reason, a snotty comment about something someone's wearing? Yes. Especially if that person is tired, cranky, or just so frustrated with what he/she thinks ought to be "easy". I think what we ought to have here is forgiveness to others who might hurt us, either purposefully or more likely by accident. And we ought to have tolerance for others who do not do costuming first and foremost. And advice and knowledge for those who are seeking. Thanks for your time. Back to lurking mode.... _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 14:47:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28026 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:46:59 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21194; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:58:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA17599 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:55:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fep1.post.tele.dk (fep1.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.133]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA17593 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:55:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from post12.tele.dk ([195.249.234.239]) by fep1.post.tele.dk (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with ESMTP id <19990718195546.WMAB22914.fep1@post12.tele.dk> for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:55:46 +0200 Message-ID: <3792303B.12D0D2FD@post12.tele.dk> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:51:23 +0200 From: leif drews X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [da] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: stays Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: leif drews I am so sorry about this confusion, with the adjustment. I se now that when the shoulderstraps is laced tight, the bustline will fitt beautifully. The corset is surposed to sit tight to the armholes or what? Sorry about this confusion i made, It was one of the bones that i thoaght would point up in the air, but when it is fitted to the shoulderstraps, it will bend inwards just nice. Another question though! Do you make your costumes on a dresstand that is fitted to the period? A modern dresstand is not good to fit garments on i think, the bust is wrong. Just curious. Bjarne -- Leif Drews Åboulevard 5, 3 th 1635 København V Bjarne Drews Åboulevard 5,3.th 1635 København V tlf. 35 37 13 70 Homepage: http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~DeeDee_Revia/1index.html _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 15:31:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA28836 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 15:31:08 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25233; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:42:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA22300 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:39:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.redshift.com (mail.redshift.com [209.54.200.6]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA22295 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:39:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from redshift.com (pm7-99.mry.redshift.com [207.204.196.99]) by mail.redshift.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA30202 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:39:45 -0700 Message-ID: <379239E8.E73EF999@redshift.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:32:40 -0700 From: Denning X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: French(& Italian) Costumes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Denning Does anyone know where I can find (hopefully easily available & useful-so I don't have to look forever for information :D) books, websites or patterns on period French dress -medieval to Renaissance mostly, maybe a little English dress from those periods. Noblewomen to rich merchant(idealized rich peasant) types. Also.... the same, but for a rich Italian merchat? (both for females) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 15:45:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA29071 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 15:45:27 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26593; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:56:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA24093 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:54:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA24080 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:54:23 -0600 (MDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6VHSa21802 (14430) for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <340851ce.24c398d5@aol.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:53:41 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: 18th. c. stays To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 7/18/99 3:06:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes: << What a splendid idea to make a cardboard pre-fitting corset first. Why didnt i think of that before....... Thankyou very much for that idea. Bjarne. >> While we're on the topic....... When the corsets were made for "Last of the Mohicans" they were cut in drill, then either ....in muslin and put together and the vents [the channels for the bones] sewn in.... or the vents were formed by grosgrain ribbon. Each piece was made up separately with large seam allowances & boned. The pieces were sewn together & fitted on the actress. The thing was taken apart, corrections made [some cutting down of bones was sometimes involved] then the top fabric was cut & based on over the muslin. Following the machine stitching on the muslin/drill, all the vents were hand sewn through all three thicknesses of fabric. The hand sewing is all that shows on the outside. Then the corset was sewn back together, seam allowances trimmed & finished, and the bindings applied. I didn't make one but only did some hand work on the vents. I however plan to follow this proceedure when I do make a fancy pair of stays....that might be seen. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 15:49:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA29092 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 15:49:07 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27014; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 15:00:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA24704 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:58:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA24698 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:58:08 -0600 (MDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6XILa17857 (14430) for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:57:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6fc0974e.24c399b3@aol.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:57:23 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: stays To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 7/18/99 3:57:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes: << Do you make your costumes on a dresstand that is fitted to the period? A modern dresstand is not good to fit garments on i think, the bust is wrong. Just curious. >> I have a foam dummy that squishes. But this too is not flesh & I have to pad the top of the bust because it doesn't get pushed up like flesh but just squishes in....like foam. Also a dummy slightly smaller than you need can be padded to the correct shape. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 17:04:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA30423 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 17:04:22 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04470; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:15:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA03090 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:13:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-04.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-04.core.theplanet.net [194.152.65.204]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA03080 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:12:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem106.barney.pol.co.uk ([195.92.7.106] helo=herimats) by svr-a-04.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 115zAy-0007NQ-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 23:12:52 +0100 Message-ID: <00eb01bed16a$b1867470$9d065cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: <379239E8.E73EF999@redshift.com> Subject: Re: H-COST: subscribing help Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 23:10:13 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Help !!!Its been a lifetime (it seems) but I cant remember how I subscribed to this list and a friend wants to join us; Please remind me. Dave LD MUNDY Editor Heritage Matters _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 19:49:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA00192 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:49:43 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA22555; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:00:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA21227 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:58:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from proxy4.ba.best.com (root@proxy4.ba.best.com [206.184.139.15]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id SAA21210; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:58:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from best.com (lavolta.vip.best.com [206.86.95.234]) by proxy4.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.out) with ESMTP id RAA18317; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 17:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37927840.437225EC@best.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 17:58:40 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GBACG Mailing List , Historic Costume Mailing List , Vintage Clothing Mailing List Subject: H-COST: Discount books for sale Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Lavolta Press I have for sale five discount copies of the first edition of _After a Fashion: How to Reproduce, Restore, and Wear Vintage Styles_. This book gives instructions for making reproduction costumes from Middle Ages to Art Deco, plus buying, cleaning, mending, and altering vintage clothes from Victorian to Art Deco. (It is not a pattern book, but we also sell two of those.) Both women's and men's clothes are discussed. It is 8 1/2 by 11 inches, 357 pages, and illustrated with 147 line drawings. Copies are in very good condition except a little cover scuffing or fading. The price is $21 (plus sales tax for California residents) plus $4 shipping. More details are on our web site: http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Frances Grimble -- --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 20:43:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA01201 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:43:15 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA27629; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:56:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA26869 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:54:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA26856 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:54:42 -0600 (MDT) From: Nancygwyn@aol.com Received: from Nancygwyn@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6MRLa17857 (4530) for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:53:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <62119cb1.24c3df0f@aol.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:53:19 EDT Subject: H-COST: Re: Use of linen in Renaissance Italy (Was Cotehardie Conundrum/Blanket) To: h-costume-digest@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Nancygwyn@aol.com In Henk's posting of July 17th he included from someone named Robin the following quote > I've found some indications that linen was worn routinely for summer > garments in sunny Italy, Robin (or Henk), I'd be very interested in hearing more about your research, sources, etc. Please elaborate more on this comment, either to the list or privately. Thank you. Nancy Stengel (Maddalena Salutati) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 21:30:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA01933 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:30:35 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04226; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:44:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA02405 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:42:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA02393 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:42:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.net (pool0146.cvx8-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.170.146]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04565 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3792927A.70D25BB4@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:50:35 -0700 From: Scott Hulett X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Use of linen in Renaissance Italy (Was CotehardieConundrum/Blanket) References: <62119cb1.24c3df0f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Scott Hulett Henk and Robin, Yes please. I would very much like to know of linen usage during summer in Renaissance/Late Renaissance Italy. Thanks much, jd Nancygwyn@aol.com wrote: > -Poster: Nancygwyn@aol.com > > In Henk's posting of July 17th he included from someone named Robin the > following quote > > > I've found some indications that linen was worn routinely for summer > > garments in sunny Italy, > > Robin (or Henk), I'd be very interested in hearing more about your research, > sources, etc. Please elaborate more on this comment, either to the list or > privately. > > Thank you. > > Nancy Stengel > (Maddalena Salutati) > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 21:39:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA02034 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:39:36 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05331; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:53:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA03371 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:51:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.inreach.com ([209.142.0.6]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA03363 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:51:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from default (209-142-44-176.stk.inreach.net [209.142.44.176]) by smtp.inreach.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10464 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <379291B4.9668CE17@inreach.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:47:16 -0700 From: Diana H Organization: Well, I wouldn't call it organized...... X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Renn. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199907181725.LAA02178@indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Diana H > These days my everyday clothes are more conservative. The SCA > provides the > 'dressing up' outlet. In the SCA, my costuming interest seems to be > focusing in on the Italian Renaissance. Oh, I still want to make at > least > one Tudor and Elizabethan, but Italian Ren is 'it', as far as I am > concerned. > > The problem is, that there just doesn't seem to be much out there in > the > way of information. Oh, I know about Birbari's, Dress in Italian > Painting. > I have 2 book searches going for it (the Tracery and Bibliofind). > And I > have been busy at Kinko's making color copies from giant art books of > Italian Painting, to put in a binder. But, if there is anyone else > out > there with a passion for Italian Ren, and you can point me in some > other > directions, please let me know. Kathleen, I am also in the SCA (West) and consider my forte to be Italian Renn dress. I was curious as to what type of info you are looking for as research. Personally, I do alot of searches for Italian painters on the Internet and have a collection of some wonderful art books of Italian painters. I also keep a binder of pictures I have either photocopied or printed. I usually use this binder to teach a class in Italian Renn. since it is in chronological order. As for construction, I try to take clues from examples of existing clothing pieces when I can find them and use the techniques available. I do my own patterning and can usually look at a style of dress and figure out how the pieces fit together. So I can't really point you in the direction of patterns except to say that there are some to be found in the book by Hunnisett called "Period Costume for Stage & Screen: Medieval to 1500" There is a book called "Dress in Renaissance Italy 1450-1550" but the name of the author escapes me at the moment. It is unfortunately out of print but may be available at your University library. It is a good overview of Italian dress and fabrics and whatnot. No patterns that I remember, though. I hope this gives you some info to start off with. I would be happy to discuss Italian Renn with you or anyone else. We can do it off list if you would like. I am always happy to share with others what I know and help them find it if I don't :~> Cheers, Diana :~> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 23:08:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03455 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 23:08:40 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA13575; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 22:20:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA14069 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 22:18:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (root@lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net [209.165.6.246]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA14060 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 22:18:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from raiden.lightspeed.net (raiden.lightspeed.net [209.165.6.245]) by lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05050 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gunsafes (209-165-58-103.lightspeed.net [209.165.58.103]) by raiden.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA17877 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <007b01bed19d$decb7920$b983fea9@gunsafes> From: "Michelle" To: "costume list" Subject: H-COST: Italian Ren patterns Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:19:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0078_01BED163.319A0EE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Michelle" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01BED163.319A0EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a company called Period Patterns that puts out an Italian dress = pattern. It includes several styles. You can order that one or other = patterns through Alter Years. =20 Period Patterns assumes pretty extensive sewing knowlege and some of = it can be quite tricky but, their patterns are nice. They include a bit = of historical information along with the pattern.=20 Let me know if you would like the number of Alter Years to request a = catalog. They carry corseting supplies and a multitude of pattern, etc. = from historical to Halloween. Mandrake ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01BED163.319A0EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There is a company called Period Patterns that puts = out an=20 Italian dress pattern. It includes several styles.  You can order = that one=20 or other patterns through Alter Years.  
   Period Patterns assumes pretty = extensive sewing=20 knowlege and some of it can be quite tricky but, their patterns are = nice. =20 They include a bit of historical information along with the=20 pattern. 
    Let me know if you would like the = number of=20 Alter Years to request a catalog.  They carry corseting supplies = and a=20 multitude of pattern, etc. from historical to Halloween.
 
  Mandrake
------=_NextPart_000_0078_01BED163.319A0EE0-- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 23:26:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03785 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 23:26:43 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA16790; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 22:40:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA16306 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 22:37:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.leading.net (root@smtp.leading.net [207.98.192.90]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA16299 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 22:37:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from a39193-s2-19-243.leading.net (a39193-s2-19-243.leading.net [216.199.27.243]) by smtp.leading.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA15738; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 00:36:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907190436.AAA15738@smtp.leading.net> From: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" To: "apprentice@egroups.com" Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 00:26:29 Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.95a For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: H-COST: self-CPR Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" Good Gentles, About a month ago, on one of the lists I'm on (no idea which one, and I can't find the message), I got a message on doing self-CPR. Unsure whether it was for real or not, I forwarded it to my Mom, who sent it on to my uncle, a heart specialist in Boston. Below are my uncle's remarks on the subject and the original email. I have deleted my uncle's name and such for his privacy. My apologies if you're on many of the same lists I'm on and get this a zillion times, but it's certainly valuable information. Yours, Arianne de Dragonnid Shire of Starhaven, Kingdom of Trimaris ````````````````````````````` My uncle's remarks: >If the cause of the arrest is bradycardia, the technique described (cough >CPR) will support the circulation if it is performed every 1-2 seconds. I >have personally instructed a patient to perform the maneuver until we could >get a pacemaker inserted. > >If the cause of the arrest is ventricular tachycardia there is a small >chance that cough will convert the rhythm back to normal. It would not >work for ventricular fibrillation. > >Bottom line-- it is worth a try if a person is starting tofaint from a >heart attack. `````````````````````````````````` And the original post: > > >Let's say it's 4:17 p.m. and you're driving home (alone of course) > > >after an unusually hard day on the job. Not only was the workload > > >extraordinarily heavy, you also had a disagreement with your boss, > > >and no matter how hard you tried he just wouldn't see your side of > > >the situation. You're really upset and the more you think about it > > >the more uptight you become. All of a sudden you start experiencing > > >severe pain in your chest that starts to radiate out into your arm > > >and up into your jaw. You are only about five miles from the > > >hospital nearest your home. Unfortunately you don't know if you'll > > >be able to make it that far. What can you do? You've been trained > > >in CPR but the guy that taught the course neglected to tell you how > > >to perform it on yourself. > > >The other evening I received an e-mail from Dave Guilliot that is a > > >reprint of an article that was published in the newsletter of > > >Rochester General Hospital. It gives you a course of action should > > >you find yourself alone and think that you are having a heart attack. > > >Before passing it on to anyone else (I didn't recognize the source), > > >I felt it was necessary to get a more learned opinion as to the > > >validity of the procedure so I dropped it off for Dr. Domangue (Plant > > >Medical Director) to comment on. His comment was very brief: "You > > >should do this." Therefore, below is the complete article as I > > >received it. Again, Special thanks to Dave Guilliot for making us > > >aware of this procedure. > > > > > >HOW TO SURVIVE A HEART ATTACK WHEN ALONE > > > > > > (Since many people are alone when they suffer a heart attack, this > > >article seemed in order.) > > > > > >Without help, the person whose heart stops beating properly and who > > >begins to feel faint, has only about 10 seconds left before losing > > >consciousness. However, these victims can help themselves by > > >coughing repeatedly and very vigorously. A deep breath should be > > >taken before each cough, and the cough must be deep and prolonged, > > >as when producing sputum from deep inside the chest. A breath and > > >a cough must be repeated about every two seconds without let up > > >until help arrives, or until the heart is felt to be beating > > >normally again. > > > > > >Deep breaths get oxygen into the lungs and coughing movements squeeze > > >the heart and keep the blood circulating. The squeezing pressure on > > >the heart also helps it regain normal rhythm. In this way, heart > > >attack victims can get to a phone and, between breaths, call for > > >help. > > > > > >Tell as many other people as possible about this. It could save > > >their lives! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 18 23:39:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03952 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 23:39:31 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA17945; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 22:52:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA17781 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 22:50:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.leading.net (root@smtp.leading.net [207.98.192.90]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA17773 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 22:50:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from a39193-s2-19-243.leading.net (a39193-s2-19-243.leading.net [216.199.27.243]) by smtp.leading.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA15931 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 00:50:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907190450.AAA15931@smtp.leading.net> From: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" To: "h-costume@indra.com" Date: Mon, 19 Jul 99 00:40:37 Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.95a For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: H-COST: self-CPR Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" Good Gentles, About a month ago, on one of the lists I'm on (no idea which one, and I can't find the message), I got a message on doing self-CPR. Unsure whether it was for real or not, I forwarded it to my Mom, who sent it on to my uncle, a heart specialist in Boston. Below are my uncle's remarks on the subject and the original email. I have deleted my uncle's name and such for his privacy. My apologies if you're on many of the same lists I'm on and get this a zillion times, but it's certainly valuable information. Yours, Arianne de Dragonnid Shire of Castlemere, Kingdom of Trimaris ````````````````````````````` My uncle's remarks: >If the cause of the arrest is bradycardia, the technique described (cough >CPR) will support the circulation if it is performed every 1-2 seconds. I >have personally instructed a patient to perform the maneuver until we could >get a pacemaker inserted. > >If the cause of the arrest is ventricular tachycardia there is a small >chance that cough will convert the rhythm back to normal. It would not >work for ventricular fibrillation. > >Bottom line-- it is worth a try if a person is starting tofaint from a >heart attack. `````````````````````````````````` And the original post: > > >Let's say it's 4:17 p.m. and you're driving home (alone of course) > > >after an unusually hard day on the job. Not only was the workload > > >extraordinarily heavy, you also had a disagreement with your boss, > > >and no matter how hard you tried he just wouldn't see your side of > > >the situation. You're really upset and the more you think about it > > >the more uptight you become. All of a sudden you start experiencing > > >severe pain in your chest that starts to radiate out into your arm > > >and up into your jaw. You are only about five miles from the > > >hospital nearest your home. Unfortunately you don't know if you'll > > >be able to make it that far. What can you do? You've been trained > > >in CPR but the guy that taught the course neglected to tell you how > > >to perform it on yourself. > > >The other evening I received an e-mail from Dave Guilliot that is a > > >reprint of an article that was published in the newsletter of > > >Rochester General Hospital. It gives you a course of action should > > >you find yourself alone and think that you are having a heart attack. > > >Before passing it on to anyone else (I didn't recognize the source), > > >I felt it was necessary to get a more learned opinion as to the > > >validity of the procedure so I dropped it off for Dr. Domangue (Plant > > >Medical Director) to comment on. His comment was very brief: "You > > >should do this." Therefore, below is the complete article as I > > >received it. Again, Special thanks to Dave Guilliot for making us > > >aware of this procedure. > > > > > >HOW TO SURVIVE A HEART ATTACK WHEN ALONE > > > > > > (Since many people are alone when they suffer a heart attack, this > > >article seemed in order.) > > > > > >Without help, the person whose heart stops beating properly and who > > >begins to feel faint, has only about 10 seconds left before losing > > >consciousness. However, these victims can help themselves by > > >coughing repeatedly and very vigorously. A deep breath should be > > >taken before each cough, and the cough must be deep and prolonged, > > >as when producing sputum from deep inside the chest. A breath and > > >a cough must be repeated about every two seconds without let up > > >until help arrives, or until the heart is felt to be beating > > >normally again. > > > > > >Deep breaths get oxygen into the lungs and coughing movements squeeze > > >the heart and keep the blood circulating. The squeezing pressure on > > >the heart also helps it regain normal rhythm. In this way, heart > > >attack victims can get to a phone and, between breaths, call for > > >help. > > > > > >Tell as many other people as possible about this. It could save > > >their lives! Yours in the Dream, Arianne de Dragonnid Shire of Castlemere, Kingdom of Trimaris %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% "The founder of my noble line was wont to see Dragons. His Lady rode out from the forest in a gown of samite and was as young on the day he died as on their wedding day." %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 00:23:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA04733 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 00:23:38 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22102; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 23:35:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id XAA22163 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 23:33:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id XAA22153 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 23:33:47 -0600 (MDT) From: seamstrix@juno.com Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id EFU85CB5; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 01:33:06 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com Cc: h-costume@indra.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 00:17:12 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing Message-ID: <19990719.002835.-286635.0.seamstrix@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4-6 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com For those of you interested in the Museum of London books but are trapped here in the US, Blackheath Books out of Milwaukee (and Bristol RenFaire) carries them and will do mail order. They can be contacted at :Blackheath Books 3454 N. Weil Street Milwaukee WI 53212. They also carry Juan deAlcega! Karen ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 01:35:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA06065 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 01:35:05 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA26757; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 00:48:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id AAA28594 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 00:46:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.mc.net (mail.mc.net [209.172.128.4]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id AAA28589 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 00:46:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 22058 invoked from network); 19 Jul 1999 06:46:36 -0000 Received: from chi-209-112-70-96.mc.net (HELO lynnx.enteract.com) (209.112.70.96) by mail.mc.net with SMTP; 19 Jul 1999 06:46:36 -0000 Message-ID: <3792EC1B.5DCE@mc.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 02:12:59 -0700 From: lynnx X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: French SCA site References: <199907182039.OAA22315@indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Rating: mail.mc.net 1.6.1 0/1000/N Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: lynnx La poulet gauche (sp?) is a SCA medieval "bar" that has the garb diagrams for their "Poster Girl" (server from a period picture of a bar or inn or whatever) and may have some links. http://www.lepg.org/ Sister Ed _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 06:20:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA10835 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 06:20:55 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA09420; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 05:34:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id FAA04316 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 05:32:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [195.194.177.11]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id FAA04301 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 05:32:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from csv6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA08840.; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:37:21 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-Message_Server by csv6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:31:29 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:31:04 +0100 From: "KATE M BUNTING" To: Subject: H-COST: Re: Tewkesbury Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id GAA10835 Status: O -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" I'm not a medievalist, but I thought your photos were most impressive, Dave. I'm only a mile or 2 from Kedleston Hall and wondered what the Bank Holiday event was that you mentioned. (Just curiosity - I shall be at Chichester with the Sealed Knot over Bank Hol.) Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 07:51:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA12287 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:51:42 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA15027; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:05:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA11650 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:03:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA11639 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:03:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion (209-122-216-110.s110.tnt3.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com [209.122.216.110]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA20717 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000501bed1e8$37151920$6ed87ad1@pavilion> From: "Andrea Gideon" To: "H-Costume" Subject: H-COST: cartridge pleating Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:11:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Andrea Gideon" How much fabric is needed for a cartridge pleated skirt? Is it so many times the waist or is it just so many yards? Andrea _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 08:19:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA12638 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:19:57 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA17736; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:33:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA14891 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:31:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA14879 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:31:43 -0600 (MDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6YUYa21756 (4464) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:30:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:30:47 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: cartridge pleating To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 7/19/99 9:04:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, andrea.gideon@erols.com writes: << How much fabric is needed for a cartridge pleated skirt? Is it so many times the waist or is it just so many yards? Andrea >> With flat pleating you have to figure this out exactly....for full returns it's 3 times the finished length [because you end up with 3 continuous layers] Cartridge pleats on the other hand have only the rise of the pleat...one point....attached to a finished length. So the depth of the pleat determines the total length. If the pleats are 1/2" deep you can get X amount into 1" of, say, waistband. But you can place the rise of the pleats 1/8" apart [and get 8 pleats] or squeeze them in to 1/16" & get twice as much fabric. Also [confused yet?] you can put 8 [or 16] pleats that are 1" deep & get twice as much fabric that way since the depth of the pleat is not attached to the waist band. Because of all of this....you can get a huge amount of fabric onto a small space. If you're confused about the way cartridge pleats work...do a sample. Try shallow or deep pleats. When are they too shallow; too deep to sit right? See how much you can squish the pleats next to each other. How far apart can they sit and still look good? It's different with different fabrics. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 08:40:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA13046 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:40:33 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA20622; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:54:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA17906 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:52:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dgs.dgsys.com (robin@dgs.dgsys.com [204.97.64.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA17889 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:52:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by dgs.dgsys.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA19297 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:52:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: dgs.dgsys.com: robin owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:52:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Robin Netherton To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Blanket cloth In-Reply-To: <199907171828.UAA18563@worldonline.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Robin Netherton On Sat, 17 Jul 1999, Henk 't Jong wrote: > Incidentally: do any of you know if 'blanket' is a woollen or linen (white > or light coloured: blanc=white) cloth. It was used for cotte and chaperon > linings in the early 14th c. In my opinion it can't have been a thick > roughed woollen cloth to make blankets from, this was called fustian at the > time. But what else could it have been? Any suggestions? Funny you should ask -- I just did some work on the term "blanket" a few weeks ago for a client, when I was writing up some material on sumptuary laws. The subject came up when I quoted the English sumptuary law of 1362, specifying that: "...carters, ploughmen, oxherds, cowherds, shepherds, swineherds, dairymen, and `all manner of people of the estate of a groom, attending to husbandry, and all other people that have not goods nor chattles to the value of 40 shillings' may not wear anything but blanket cloth and russet, costing 12 pence a yard. They are ordered to wear girdles of linen, according to their estate, and not to eat or drink excessively." [From Frances Baldwin's landmark study on these laws, _Sumptuary Legislation and Personal Regulation in England_ (Johns Hopkins, 1926).] This establishes that blanket and russet are cheap cloth and the basic (in fact the only) cloth considered (by the nobility) as suitable for peasant wear at this time. That alone would probably indicate wool, but we don't have to guess. In a footnote, Baldwin says: "From 1259-1400, the cheapest kinds of woolens were bluett, russet and blanket. In the first of these, two qualities at least may be traced: the second was an inferior article; the third cheapest of all. The first two terms point to the color of the cloth. Blanket was undyed stuff. `Russet' was sometimes used to designate cloth made from black wool. When bluett was quoted by the piece, it was superior in quality to bluett sold by the yard. In 1284, a piece of bluett cost L5 14s 9d., and in 1286 L4 13s 4d. As a rule, the price was low -- before the Black Death, it averaged 1s 7 1/2d. per yard, while russet averaged 1s 4d. Blanket was never very high and occasionally very cheap. It was used especially for long, loose garments, which were usually very ample, containing from eight to ten yards of material. Blanket and russet were the fabrics prescribed for the peasants to wear by the ordinance of 1363 (Rogers, Agriculture and Prices, vol. i, p. 575ff)." Baldwin is an old source, but the pertinent facts here are backed by a source I absolutely LOVE: Christopher Dyer's splendid study of medieval household economics, called _Standards of Living in the Later Middle Ages, 1200-1450_ (I think Cambridge U. Press, 1989). Dyer (what an appropriate name!) also mentions blanket and russet, with additional information on prices quoted in documents of various times. He also defines them as Baldwin does. I would give you the exact quote, but I'm preparing to move house and I just packed up the 900s (my husband files our books by Dewey Decimal!), so I'm working from memory on that one. Anyway, apparently the distinguishing feature of blanket and russet is color, with blanket being undyed white wool and russet being undyed black wool. Bear in mind that black *wool* does not mean black *cloth* -- a "black sheep" is any sheep that is not white, and they come in many colors, including browns and greys (research biologists are now trying to breed back some of the lost colors of medieval sheep). True black *color* required expensive dye. The next level up of wool is "bluett," which is evidently the same cloth dyed with readily available earth dyes in the blue/green ranges. That's consistent with the idea that color is a determining factor in the value of cheap woolen cloth: bluetts (dyed) were more expensive than russets (natural greys/browns), which were more expensive than blankets (undyed white wool). Russet was evidently considered more attractive than blanket on the basis of color alone -- Dyer cites references in medieval contracts to employers supplying laborers or pensioners with tunics of russet lined with blanket, but not the other way around. Oh, I've made a long post on linen in Italy and elsewhere, but it hasn't appeared yet -- probably too long to post automatically so we have to wait for Elizabeth's approval. Funny how I keep overflowing the length limit on my posts... --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 08:57:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA13310 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:57:29 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA22348; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:10:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA20602 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:08:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from komarr.local.thibault.org (adsl-151-197-16-76.bellatlantic.net [151.197.16.76]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA20584 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:08:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thibault.org (granny.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.16]) by komarr.local.thibault.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06449 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:08:12 -0400 Message-ID: <37933151.C992BA0E@thibault.org> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:09:22 -0400 From: Cynthia Virtue Organization: Virtue Ventures http://www.virtue.to X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "h-costume@indra.com" Subject: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Cynthia Virtue I'm hoping to get the obscurity prize for this week on H-Costume. ;) Last week, my husband and I were in Oslo for a conference. Since I was merely along for the ride, I got to go to a lot of museums and so forth. It was great! The "traditional" costume for women includes at least one of (and sometimes several) a round brooch with 6-20 spangles that are suspended from wire bits that project outward from the plane of the main brooch. These spangles are roughly the size and proportions of a contact lens, although they can be a bit larger. The concave side faces out, so they flash as the person moves. The size of the brooch can be from about 1.5" in diameter to 5" in diameter, and made of gold or silver, or both. When I went to the Industrial Museum (the functional equivalent of the V&A in London, designed to showcase a wide variety of styles and practical items for the benefit of students in the applied arts) I saw some examples of similar things: Their collection of plaque belts from the 15th century: They were all silver, and mounted on leather or fine fabric. One of them had spangles like the ones on the brooches. A postcard of an ornamented drinking horn 'from the 15th century', which we found at the historic museum in town, also had spangles hanging from a band near the lip. The Industrial musem had many annular brooches, although none with spangles per se. So my question is: how recently is the brooch-with-spangles combination? A lot of the "traditional" costume is known to be relatively recent, borne upone a tide of regional identification in the past century, although based at least partly on some historical costumes. (This from brochures and exhibits at the Norse Folk Museum.) The trouble is, the exhibits about costume don't break things down into dates about specific items. cv (As a postscript, apparently many women and men will spend a couple hundred dollars on a traditional outfit, because you can wear it to any formal occasion for the rest of your life. I suppose it's rather like getting a tailcoat here in the US -- a little old fashioned, but always proper and in style for big occasions. We did see two wedding parties at the castle which had about half the women guests dressed traditionally.) -- "The more you can increase fear of drugs & crime, welfare mothers, immigrants & aliens, the more you control all the people." -- Noam Chomsky _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 09:35:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13972 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:35:03 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27480; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:48:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA27455 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:46:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA27445 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:46:37 -0600 (MDT) From: SNSpies@aol.com Received: from SNSpies@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6SMVa05584 (553) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:45:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:45:53 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com Hello. Interesting question. Try contacting the Vesterheim Norwegian-American Museum. They have answered questions for me before. Vesterheim Norwegian-American Museum Nancy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 09:39:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13995 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:39:48 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27923; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:53:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA28370 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:50:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.pacifier.com (root@smtp.pacifier.com [199.2.117.96]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA28362 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:50:52 -0600 (MDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com Received: from grendal2 (ip144.van17.pacifier.com [216.65.137.144]) by smtp.pacifier.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA10936 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907191450.HAA10936@smtp.pacifier.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:54:21 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: H-COST: cartridge pleating Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000501bed1e8$37151920$6ed87ad1@pavilion> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > How much fabric is needed for a cartridge pleated skirt? Is it so many > times the waist or is it just so many yards? > Andrea Usually you want to have 4-5 times the width of the waistband you're pleating onto. Since that will vary from person to person, doing x yards won't work. You can use more than 5 times around if you want it very, very full, but if you use less than 4 times, you might as well pleat it. (Most flat pleating gives you about 3 times the waistwidth.) Also, if you want it more full at the bottom but still only 4-5 times at the waist, you can use a trapezoid shaped piece where the top is narrower than the bottom. If you are using hoops, measure the bottom hoop then add some for petticoats and some ease over it (or the bottom will keep migrating up the hoop when worn.) Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 09:44:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14137 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:44:07 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA28685; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:56:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA29343 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:54:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from komarr.local.thibault.org (adsl-151-197-16-76.bellatlantic.net [151.197.16.76]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA29319 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:54:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thibault.org (granny.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.16]) by komarr.local.thibault.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06770 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:53:59 -0400 Message-ID: <37933C0C.8B9CFB38@thibault.org> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:55:10 -0400 From: Cynthia Virtue Organization: Virtue Ventures http://www.virtue.to X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question (picture URL) References: <37933151.C992BA0E@thibault.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Cynthia Virtue Here's one example, if my description was puzzling: Quick load: http://piximg.corbis.com/cpe/256wm/10500579.jpg Corbis.com describes the picture as: Norwegian Folk Dancer Voss, Norway ca. 1980s A portrait of a Norwegian folk dancer in her traditional clothing in Voss, Norway. cv _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 09:44:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14141 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:44:49 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29018; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:57:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA29551 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:55:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.pacifier.com (root@smtp.pacifier.com [199.2.117.96]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA29544 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:55:05 -0600 (MDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com Received: from grendal2 (ip144.van17.pacifier.com [216.65.137.144]) by smtp.pacifier.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA09938 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907191454.HAA09938@smtp.pacifier.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:58:34 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: H-COST: Italian Renn. Priority: normal In-reply-to: <379291B4.9668CE17@inreach.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > There is a book called "Dress in Renaissance Italy 1450-1550" but the > name of the author escapes me at the moment. It is unfortunately out of > print but may be available at your University library. It is a good > overview of Italian dress and fabrics and whatnot. No patterns that I > remember, though. Jacqueline Herald. Excellent book. Artists of the time period are very good about showing costume details in this period. Look at lots and lots of art books. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 10:18:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14724 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:18:15 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04475; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:31:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id JAA08261 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:29:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA08242 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:29:36 -0600 (MDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6MHCa08414 (4464) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:28:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <241eef5d.24c49e2f@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:28:47 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: cartridge pleating To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 7/19/99 10:52:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kat@grendal.rain.com writes: << Usually you want to have 4-5 times the width of the waistband you're pleating onto. Since that will vary from person to person, doing x yards won't work. >> Hmmmm..seems to me that "4-5 times" and the fact that it "will vary from person to person" puts us right back at X. Do a sample if you're confused because the properties of the fabric as well as all the other variables [X ,Y and Z] make a difference. Velvet will not pleat like cotton. Just "draw up" one panel or gore of the skirt to see. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 11:08:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA15518 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:08:27 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12182; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:21:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id KAA19801 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:18:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zeus.directcon.net (zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA19789 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:18:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r4p31.directcon.net [206.170.184.80]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA01641 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907191618.JAA01641@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: H-COST: cartridge pleating Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson At 09:11 AM 7/19/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Andrea Gideon" > >How much fabric is needed for a cartridge pleated skirt? Is it so many >times the waist or is it just so many yards? >Andrea Well, it depends somewhat on the period, and the size of the wearer. For an Elizabethan overskirt, I usually use 3 panels of 45" fabric seamed together for bodies up to around size 18. Larger than that, it really looks better to use another panel, or to use three 60" panels. I don't hold with using the fabric lengthwise and pleating along a selvedge edge, especially if there's a matching bodice cut on lengthwise grain. Cutting crosswise can not only affct the color, but the drape of the skirt fabric. Take the time to do two more seams and the results will be much better. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 12:15:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA16697 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:15:38 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23952; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:28:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id LAA06442 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:26:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA06425 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 11:26:25 -0600 (MDT) From: Fopdejour1@aol.com Received: from Fopdejour1@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 6NVOa07160 (3960) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:24:58 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: cartridge pleating To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Fopdejour1@aol.com In a message dated 7/19/99 1:05:21 PM !!!First Boot!!!, andrea.gideon@erols.com writes: > How much fabric is needed for a cartridge pleated skirt? Is it so many > times the waist or is it just so many yards? > Andrea > To figure this out, you need to figure how many pleats go into an inch....this will depend on the size of your pleats. Measure an inch, and see how many pleats you can fit. (The smaller the pleat, the less fabric you will need) After you have done that, undo he pleating and measure it. Multiply that by how many inches your waist is, and add seam allowances. Charles _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 14:24:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18855 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:24:26 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17735; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:36:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA06590 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:33:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from vi-b1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de (ns0.ipcore.viaginterkom.de [195.182.96.61]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA06577; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:33:50 -0600 (MDT) From: cemsophie@planet-interkom.de Received: from acor (u-161.essen.ipdial.viaginterkom.de [62.180.17.161]) by vi-b1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA16183; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:22:35 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199907191922.VAA16183@vi-b1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de> To: h-costume@indra.com, owner-h-costume@indra.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:26:46 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing Priority: normal In-reply-to: <19990719.002835.-286635.0.seamstrix@juno.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: cemsophie@planet-interkom.de > > For those of you interested in the Museum of London books but are trapped > here in the US, Blackheath Books out of Milwaukee (and Bristol RenFaire) > carries them and will do mail order. They can be contacted at :Blackheath > Books 3454 N. Weil Street Milwaukee WI 53212. They also carry Juan > deAlcega! > Well, I'm not trapped in the US but in Germany. I have been to the Musuem but I didn't find many of their books in teh museums shop. Have you got a list of their publications? Do you know whether it's possible to order them directly from the museum? to Germany the shipping cost shouldn't be too high ;-). Sophie > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 14:25:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18862 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:25:48 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18162; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:38:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA07176 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:36:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.12]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA07138 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:36:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem103.fred.pol.co.uk ([195.92.7.231] helo=herimats) by svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 116JDB-0006DQ-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:36:30 +0100 Message-ID: <004601bed21e$03457cd0$e7075cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: Tewkesbury Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:56:16 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Kate , Thank You. I dont have full details yet; but it is a sort of historic crafts thing. Always interesting from a costume point of view; I should nt mock but I do enjoy it when I see people re-enacting the mediaval fayres of the 1950s with mopcap and apron.and the best Sunday frock. I know there is some re-enactment but not sure what it might be. I shall be taking pics of course but also carrying out my role as apprentice basket and trap maker. As you live so close and have not heard about it I am a trifle concerned about the advertising. Are combatting or cam following at Chichester? The last civil war event I attended was at Worcester Commandery ; a wonderful place; I did a very un puritan puppet shew to a group of Roundhead officers who had been having a conference of some sort ( possible on the subject of brewing judging by the state of some of them). A very responsive audience they were too. Dave LD MUNDY Editor Heritage Matters ----- Original Message ----- -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" I'm not a medievalist, but I thought your photos were most impressive, Dave. I'm only a mile or 2 from Kedleston Hall and wondered what the Bank Holiday event was that you mentioned. (Just curiosity - I shall be at Chichester with the Sealed Knot over Bank Hol.) Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 14:26:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18869 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:26:07 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18147; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:38:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA07162 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:36:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.12]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA07147 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:36:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem103.fred.pol.co.uk ([195.92.7.231] helo=herimats) by svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 116JDC-0006DQ-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:36:31 +0100 Message-ID: <004701bed21e$044dec20$e7075cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: Subject: Re: H-COST: Blanket cloth Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:11:39 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" Thank you Robin for a very informative piece; When might we be seeing the Linen one as promised? I look forward to it. Can you provide any indication of the actual weight of the materials you mention; from some of the points you make it seem it was a lot lighter than I had imagined. I must admit I have been misunderstanding references to "blanket " for some time and am try to quantify just howf ar out I have been. When you get the oppurtunity that is. Have a smooth and peacefum moving day Dave > -Poster: Robin Netherton > > Funny you should ask -- I just did some work on the term "blanket" a few > weeks ago for a client, when I was writing up some material on sumptuary > laws. Etc. > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 14:39:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19058 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:39:23 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20589; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:52:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id NAA10149 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:50:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cats.ucsc.edu (rumpleteazer.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.45]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id NAA10137 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:50:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ese.UCSC.EDU (31907@ese.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.43]) by cats.ucsc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.4.cats-athena) with ESMTP id MAA18900 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ariyana@localhost) by ese.UCSC.EDU (8.8.8/8.8.8.cats-client) id MAA20846; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:50:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Ariyana Kylstram X-Sender: ariyana@ese.UCSC.EDU To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: cartridge pleating In-Reply-To: <199907191726.LAA06462@indra.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Ariyana Kylstram It really does depend on the period and the look you want. I have a 28" waist (or so) and have pleated everything from 3-5 60" panels together. The more fabric, the more weight you have to carry on your body, but sometimes the look is worth it. .ari The Lady Ariyana of House Kylstram ariyana@cats.ucsc.edu http://www.kithrup.com/~ariyana/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 15:31:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20056 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:31:41 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29302; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:44:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id OAA21725 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:42:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mailhost.neaccess.net (mailhost.neaccess.net [204.255.214.236]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id OAA21711 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:42:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer (camb0240.capecod.net [209.244.244.240]) by mailhost.neaccess.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id QAA12068 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:42:21 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990719164152.0134aedc@neaccess.net> X-Sender: kenton@neaccess.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:41:52 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Donna Kenton Subject: Re: H-COST: cartridge pleating In-Reply-To: References: <199907191726.LAA06462@indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Donna Kenton At 12:50 PM 7/19/99 -0700, you wrote: > >-Poster: Ariyana Kylstram > > >It really does depend on the period and the look you want. I have a 28" >waist (or so) and have pleated everything from 3-5 60" panels together. >The more fabric, the more weight you have to carry on your body, but >sometimes the look is worth it. Which is what underpinnings are for! If you're carrying serious quantities of heavy fabric, those hoops or that bumroll really does the trick for helping distribute and reduce the stress on your body. I've also found that a bumroll works wonderfully for back support when you have to sit on plain wooden chairs for any length of time. Donna _____________________________________________________________ Donna Kenton * donna@dabbler.com * http://www.dabbler.com Baroness Rosalind Bennett * EK Chronicler _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 16:05:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20586 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:05:24 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05267; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:17:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id PAA29161 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:15:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (root@lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net [209.165.6.246]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id PAA29151 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:15:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from raiden.lightspeed.net (raiden.lightspeed.net [209.165.6.245]) by lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19241 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gunsafes (209-165-57-78.lightspeed.net [209.165.57.78]) by raiden.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16717 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:15:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000b01bed22b$effe4e00$59f1fea9@gunsafes> From: "Michelle" To: "costume list" Subject: H-COST: pattern out of print Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:16:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01BED1F1.4292E800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Michelle" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BED1F1.4292E800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the catalog I meantioned earlier, there was a pattern I wanted a copy = of. It was put together by a museum out of London (unfortunately, I = don't know which one). The pattern, which is actually supposed to be a = lot of information, along with a scale model of the dress, is no longer = in print. They were calling it the "Escape the Revolution" dress. = Circa the French Revolution. A picture of the back side of it is in the = catalog. Does anyone have this pattern? I am dying to see what the front = looks like and would like to purchase a copy. Michelle ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BED1F1.4292E800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In the catalog I meantioned earlier, = there was a=20 pattern I wanted a copy of.  It was put together by a museum out of = London=20 (unfortunately, I don't know which one).  The pattern, which is = actually=20 supposed to be a lot of information, along with a scale model of the = dress, is=20 no longer in print.  They  were calling it the "Escape = the=20 Revolution" dress.  Circa the French Revolution.  A = picture of=20 the back side of it is in the catalog.
     Does anyone = have this=20 pattern?  I am dying to see what the front looks like and would = like to=20 purchase a copy.
 
   = Michelle
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BED1F1.4292E800-- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 17:18:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA21801 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:18:00 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14699; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:28:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA17709 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:26:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA17693 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:26:18 -0600 (MDT) From: trekona@erols.com Received: from erols.com (207-172-130-157.s157.tnt3.col.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.130.157]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with SMTP id SAA25069 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:25:59 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question Date: Tue, 20 Jul 99 10:35:19 GMT Message-ID: References: <37933151.C992BA0E@thibault.org> X-Mailer: Quarterdeck Message Center [2.00] Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: trekona@erols.com Hi, > So my question is: how recently is the brooch-with-spangles combination? > A lot of the "traditional" costume is known to be relatively recent, > borne upone a tide of regional identification in the past century, > although based at least partly on some historical costumes. (This from > brochures and exhibits at the Norse Folk Museum.) The trouble is, the > exhibits about costume don't break things down into dates about specific > items. Also remember that the "traditional" costumes in Norway are a little, um, different. That is, some of the aspects were derived and set in place by the Norwegian Costume Board (some of the embroideries were only found on a pillow in someone's attic, but now it's a design on the apron or dress!). Many of the costumes were set from a picture someone found and the Board worked something out as best they could - but no extant clothes were found. A company called Husfliden regulates the entire costume sale and construction (you have to take their classes and be approved before you are allowed to make one of the traditional costumes, and there shall be no mixing and matching of different regional bits!). As far as the spangly brooch (gorgeous, isn't it! especially with the dished bits faced in gold in with all the rest being silver. T'aint cheap, either) goes, I don't know about Norwegian costume development (yet! well, the later periods anyway), but I do know that in the later 17th cent in Sweden the brooches were beginning to get some dangly bits - not necessarily the dished spangles of the Norwegians, but linked dangly bits all the same. As Nancy suggested, Vesterheim is a good place to check - they are very friendly and helpful there. > (As a postscript, apparently many women and men will spend a couple > hundred dollars on a traditional outfit, oh, those bunads (tradition fancy costume) cost a lot more than a couple hundred > because you can wear it to any > formal occasion for the rest of your life. I suppose it's rather like > getting a tailcoat here in the US -- a little old fashioned, but always > proper and in style for big occasions. We did see two wedding parties > at the castle which had about half the women guests dressed traditionally.) yes it is common to do this. Also many times people in a wedding party will rent/borrow a bunad from someone else who already has one, thus saving money and time. Unfortunately they will also pick out the hand-sewing and refit the outfit! -Judy Mitchell > -- > "The more you can increase fear of drugs & crime, welfare mothers, > immigrants & aliens, the more you control all the people." -- Noam Chomsky > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 17:35:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22110 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:35:01 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17656; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:47:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA22283 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:45:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA22265 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:45:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.98 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:44:49 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:51:39 -0400 Message-ID: <000901bed239$78cca940$c20bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" I don't remember about spangles, but someone fished a dessert plate size circular brooch out of a Swedish river not so very long ago, surmised to belong to an 8th century (?) Swedish princess. Lots of overlapping history between Sweden and Norway, as they were at times the same kingdom. Going from memory here, but I remember seeing an image of it on a Swedish museum Web site. Hope H. Dunlap > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of trekona@erols.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 6:35 AM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question > > > > -Poster: trekona@erols.com > > Hi, > > > So my question is: how recently is the brooch-with-spangles > combination? > > A lot of the "traditional" costume is known to be > relatively recent, > > borne upone a tide of regional identification in the past century, > > although based at least partly on some historical costumes. > (This from > > brochures and exhibits at the Norse Folk Museum.) The > trouble is, the > > exhibits about costume don't break things down into dates > about specific > > items. > Also remember that the "traditional" costumes in Norway > are a little, um, > different. That is, some of the aspects were derived and set > in place by the > Norwegian Costume Board (some of the embroideries were only > found on a pillow > in someone's attic, but now it's a design on the apron or > dress!). Many of the > costumes were set from a picture someone found and the Board > worked something > out as best they could - but no extant clothes were found. A > company called > Husfliden regulates the entire costume sale and construction > (you have to take > their classes and be approved before you are allowed to make > one of the > traditional costumes, and there shall be no mixing and > matching of different > regional bits!). > As far as the spangly brooch (gorgeous, isn't it! > especially with the > dished bits faced in gold in with all the rest being silver. > T'aint cheap, > either) goes, I don't know about Norwegian costume > development (yet! well, the > later periods anyway), but I do know that in the later 17th > cent in Sweden the > brooches were beginning to get some dangly bits - not > necessarily the dished > spangles of the Norwegians, but linked dangly bits all the same. > As Nancy suggested, Vesterheim is a good place to check - > they are very > friendly and helpful there. > > > (As a postscript, apparently many women and men will spend a couple > > hundred dollars on a traditional outfit, > oh, those bunads (tradition fancy costume) cost a lot > more than a couple > hundred > > > because you can wear it to any > > formal occasion for the rest of your life. I suppose it's > rather like > > getting a tailcoat here in the US -- a little old > fashioned, but always > > proper and in style for big occasions. We did see two > wedding parties > > at the castle which had about half the women guests dressed > traditionally.) > yes it is common to do this. Also many times people in a > wedding party will > rent/borrow a bunad from someone else who already has one, > thus saving money > and time. Unfortunately they will also pick out the > hand-sewing and refit the > outfit! > > -Judy Mitchell > > > -- > > "The more you can increase fear of drugs & crime, welfare mothers, > > immigrants & aliens, the more you control all the people." > -- Noam Chomsky > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 17:48:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22299 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:48:57 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19647; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:01:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id QAA25111 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:58:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from komarr.local.thibault.org (adsl-151-197-16-76.bellatlantic.net [151.197.16.76]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA25096 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 16:58:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thibault.org (granny.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.16]) by komarr.local.thibault.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10303 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:58:17 -0400 Message-ID: <3793AD89.C1094DB4@thibault.org> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:58:20 -0400 From: Cynthia Virtue Organization: Virtue Ventures http://www.virtue.to X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question References: <37933151.C992BA0E@thibault.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Cynthia Virtue Judy wrote: > Husfliden regulates the entire costume sale and construction (you have to take > their classes and be approved before you are allowed to make one of the > traditional costumes, and there shall be no mixing and matching of different > regional bits!). Are you saying that you can't make your own without the class, or only that you can't be certified to sell your own product to others without the class? > > proper and in style for big occasions. We did see two wedding parties > > at the castle which had about half the women guests dressed traditionally.) I forgot to mention that the brides wore modern white/cream gowns with veils, etc, just as you'd see in the US. -- "The more you can increase fear of drugs & crime, welfare mothers, immigrants & aliens, the more you control all the people." -- Noam Chomsky _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 19:21:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA23906 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:21:25 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01315; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:34:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA12136 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:32:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp1.mindspring.com (smtp1.mindspring.com [207.69.200.31]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id SAA12127 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:32:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion (user-2ivei06.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.72.6]) by smtp1.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA25315 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:32:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <005701bed247$cdfeee60$0648f7a5@pavilion> From: "Megan McHugh" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:35:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Megan McHugh" I've ordered from them before. Go to the web site, get the phone number, and call them up during regular business hours. They should be able to help you, if they have the item in question. -----Original Message----- From: cemsophie@planet-interkom.de To: h-costume@indra.com ; owner-h-costume@indra.com Date: Monday, July 19, 1999 3:34 PM Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing -Poster: cemsophie@planet-interkom.de > > For those of you interested in the Museum of London books but are trapped > here in the US, Blackheath Books out of Milwaukee (and Bristol RenFaire) > carries them and will do mail order. They can be contacted at :Blackheath > Books 3454 N. Weil Street Milwaukee WI 53212. They also carry Juan > deAlcega! > Well, I'm not trapped in the US but in Germany. I have been to the Musuem but I didn't find many of their books in teh museums shop. Have you got a list of their publications? Do you know whether it's possible to order them directly from the museum? to Germany the shipping cost shouldn't be too high ;-). Sophie > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 19:48:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA24264 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:48:47 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04746; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:01:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id SAA16613 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:59:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tx.home.com [24.4.0.66]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id SAA16597 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:59:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from c59303a ([24.4.53.172]) by mail.rdc1.tx.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990720005911.DVON9024.mail.rdc1.tx.home.com@c59303a>; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 17:59:11 -0700 Message-ID: <016e01bed24b$1b245a60$ac350418@mckiny1.tx.home.com> From: "Franchesca Havas" To: Cc: "sca-garb" Subject: H-COST: Fw: Museum of London Shop inquiry Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:59:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Franchesca Havas" Here is where there are some copies of the book but I ordered mine from The Stationery Office (http://www.tsonline.co.uk/) . Sincerely, F. Havas Dallas, Texas motto: Numquam scribae ridente fide ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 17, 1999 6:45 AM Subject: RE: Museum of London Shop inquiry : : Dear Franchesca V. Havas. : Thank you for your e-mail. : We have the books "Medieval Horse and Its Equipment" and "Shoes and : Pattens" available in our shop. The books "Dress Accessories" and "Textiles : and Clothing" are now out of print, and there are no plans of re-printing : them. : "Medieval Horse..." is o9.95 and "Shoes and Pattens" is o7.99. : You can purchase these paying by credit card (VISA or MasterCard), where we : will need the card number, expiry date and card holder's name. : Please allow an extra o5.15 for postage (WORLDWIDE AIRMAIL) and packing per : book. : Thank you, : Maja Fick Hansen : ---------- : From: ches@io.com : To: , shop : Subject: Museum of London Shop inquiry : Date: Saturday, July 17, 1999 7:34AM : : Email = ches@io.com : address = 4419 Cedarcrest Dr. : McKinney, Texas : name = Franchesca V. Havas : postcode = 75070 : query = I am interested in purchasing the series of books that are titled : Museum of London - Textiles and Clothing, Dress Accessories, Shoes : and Pattens, Household Goods, and Horse something or other : submit = Submit query : ------------------------------- : Remote Host: 209.39.60.2 : Remote IP: 209.39.60.2 : User Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows NT) : Referer: http://www.museum-london.org.uk/MOLsite/mailshop.htm : _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 20:07:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24635 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:07:33 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07256; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:21:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA19805 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:19:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from komarr.local.thibault.org (adsl-151-197-16-76.bellatlantic.net [151.197.16.76]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA19793 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:19:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thibault.org (granny.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.16]) by komarr.local.thibault.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11628 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:18:35 -0400 Message-ID: <3793CE67.87637CB3@thibault.org> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:18:39 -0400 From: Cynthia Virtue Organization: Virtue Ventures http://www.virtue.to X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Cynthia Virtue Thanks, Nancy! I'll check with that museum. (For those who might be curious about the trip in general, the trip report is now webbed at http://www.virtue.to/virtue/articles/Oslo.html It includes museum & medieval ruin information, and two book recommendations.) -- "The more you can increase fear of drugs & crime, welfare mothers, immigrants & aliens, the more you control all the people." -- Noam Chomsky _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 20:19:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24804 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:19:57 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08456; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:32:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA21551 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:30:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dgs.dgsys.com (robin@dgs.dgsys.com [204.97.64.1]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA21543 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:30:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by dgs.dgsys.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA25235 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:30:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: dgs.dgsys.com: robin owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:30:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Robin Netherton To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Blanket cloth In-Reply-To: <004701bed21e$044dec20$e7075cc3@herimats> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Robin Netherton On Mon, 19 Jul 1999, dave;editors(Heritage Matters) wrote: > Thank you Robin for a very informative piece; When might we be seeing the > Linen one as promised? I look forward to it. I sent it yesterday; it was probably too long for automatic posting and needs to be approved by the listowner. That's what I get for being longwinded :-) Perhaps I should break those long ones up into parts (chapters? eek). > Can you provide any indication of the actual weight of the materials you > mention; from some of the points you make it seem it was a lot lighter than > I had imagined. I must admit I have been misunderstanding references to > "blanket " for some time and am try to quantify just howf ar out I have > been. Blanket and russet were garment fabrics and could be used as a lining, so my guess would be a medium-weight wool -- substantial enough for hard daily wear, but not as heavy as a, um, blanket. I also had been thrown off a long time by the term "blanket," because it made me think of a heavy covering. Henk provided a useful way of thinking of the name: blanc = white, and blanket is white (undyed) wool. My Oxford English Dictionary backs this as the original derivation and meaning of the word, but apparently the term was picked up fairly early on to also refer to a square of wool covering; citations to that use go back almost as far as references to blanket as a garment fabric, and both meanings were used for several centuries. --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 20:35:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA25106 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:35:23 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA11042; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:48:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id TAA23970 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:45:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.inreach.com ([209.142.0.6]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id TAA23963 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:45:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from default (209-142-33-178.stk.inreach.net [209.142.33.178]) by smtp.inreach.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07353 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3793D3F3.FA3472C@inreach.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 18:42:12 -0700 From: Diana H Organization: Well, I wouldn't call it organized...... X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: medieval seam finishing X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199907191922.VAA16183@vi-b1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Diana H > > For those of you interested in the Museum of London books but are > trapped > > here in the US, Blackheath Books out of Milwaukee (and Bristol > RenFaire) > > carries them and will do mail order. They can be contacted at > :Blackheath > > Books 3454 N. Weil Street Milwaukee WI 53212. They also carry Juan > > deAlcega! > > > Well, I'm not trapped in the US but in Germany. I have been to the > Musuem but I didn't find many of their books in teh museums shop. > Have you got a list of their publications? Do you know whether it's > possible to order them directly from the museum? to Germany the > shipping cost shouldn't be too high ;-). Sophie, There is a site on the internet called the Internet Bookshop. It is based in the UK and will ship overseas to you at a reasonable price. The address is: http://www.bookshop.co.uk/hme/hmepge.asp?siteno=1 They charge 15% of book price to ship to EC countries or 3.00 Sterling whichever is more. Dress Accessories would be approx 90 DM for you Medieval Horse & Equipment would be 63 DM Textiles & Clothing would be 72 DM I didn't find the others but that doesn't mean they aren't there. And for those of us in the US, this site is great for hard to find things but they will charge you 30% of the cost of books for shipping so choose wisely..... Hope this helps! Diana :~> -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "There are too many mediocre things in life to deal with.....Love shouldn't be one of them." --Ione Skye in "Dream for an Insomniac" _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 21:44:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA26246 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:44:18 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20401; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:50:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id UAA03247 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:48:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from plaid.engin.umich.edu (root@plaid.engin.umich.edu [141.213.42.62]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id UAA03234 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:48:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (parsla@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by plaid.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA03003 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:48:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Parsla Liepa To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question In-Reply-To: <3793CE67.87637CB3@thibault.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Parsla Liepa <(For those who might be curious about the trip in general, the trip Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA27210 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:41:05 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27820; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:52:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id VAA12654 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:49:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id VAA12648 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 21:49:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from test (ip203-191.cc.interlog.com [207.34.203.191]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA16335 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 23:49:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990719224729.0098e2e0@mail.interlog.com> X-Sender: dnunn@mail.interlog.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:47:29 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Danielle Nunn Subject: Re: H-COST: Elizabethan Footwear In-Reply-To: <378D6358.47950942@utulsa.edu> References: <199907142307.RAA18155@indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, >> I am in the process of working on my hubby's outfit for Eliz. England. ... >> What would be appropriate footwear for him? Where would I be able to >> purchase? You know what works (i.e. looks pretty good and is comfortable) are some of the men's leather slippers. Most of the better Men's shoe companies produce a leather slipper (usually in brown or black) which looks darn close to some of the Elizabethan turn shoes - without the decorations of course. They are just something I discovered by accident one day. Brown's or Dak's (or something) had them on display in the window. Admittedly, they are easier to find in the winter. Good luck, Danielle _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 19 23:02:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA27533 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 23:02:06 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00450; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:14:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id WAA15838 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:12:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.inil.com (inil.com [206.31.32.8]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id WAA15825 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:12:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [209.176.240.190] by mail.inil.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 177-57935U7500L650S0V35) with ESMTP id com; Mon, 19 Jul 1999 23:12:35 -0500 X-Sender: baddorf@pop3.inil.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6fc0974e.24c399b3@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 23:12:21 +0100 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Deb Baddorf Subject: Re: H-COST: stays Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Deb Baddorf >-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com > >In a message dated 7/18/99 3:57:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes: > ><< Do you make your costumes on a dresstand that is fitted to the period? > A modern dresstand is not good to fit garments on i think, the bust is > wrong. > Just curious. > >> >I have a foam dummy that squishes. But this too is not flesh & I have to pad >the top of the bust because it doesn't get pushed up like flesh but just >squishes in....like foam. Also a dummy slightly smaller than you need can be >padded to the correct shape. I always make my costumes on the real thing -- me. That's why I've so far refused to make fancy gowns for anybody else. They're never around to be fitted. The only time I wanted a dress stand was when I made a skirt to go over side-hoops. I discovered that the hoops did dreadful things to the hemline, and I had to rig up something to hang the hoops & the skirt on, so I could pin the flounce in place to cover up the now uneven hemline. I suppose a dress stand might have been useful, but the real body (corsetted as planned for the actual wearing) is always the best for making skin-tight gowns such as the 18th century wants. IMHO. At the very least -- it is quite possible to do without any dressform. deb Deb Baddorf http://www.inil.com/users/baddorf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 07:44:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA03750 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 07:44:57 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA01285; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 06:58:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id GAA20500 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 06:56:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id GAA20492 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 06:56:29 -0600 (MDT) From: trekona@erols.com Received: from erols.com (207-172-130-145.s145.tnt3.col.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.130.145]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with SMTP id IAA19492 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:56:27 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question Date: Wed, 21 Jul 99 01:05:49 GMT Message-ID: References: <37933151.C992BA0E@thibault.org> <3793AD89.C1094DB4@thibault.org> X-Mailer: Quarterdeck Message Center [2.00] Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: trekona@erols.com > -Poster: Cynthia Virtue > > Judy wrote: > > Husfliden regulates the entire costume sale and construction (you have to > take > > their classes and be approved before you are allowed to make one of the > > traditional costumes, and there shall be no mixing and matching of different > > regional bits!). > > Are you saying that you can't make your own without the class, or only > that you can't be certified to sell your own product to others without > the class? yup, that's what I'm saying- both. As I understand, you can't buy the goods without taking the courses and being certified (this from a Norwegian friend who did). The Costume Board is very concerned about the purity and quality of their traditional costumes (Bunads). And only handsewing, and only on the proper fabrics. I've been told that they probably aren't as strict regarding 'daily' clothes as they are with the festive Bunads. Husfliden is the *only* outlet that carries the fabric and goods for those who make their own or arrange for premade outfits. Many times people buy them in pieces: the apron at one time, maybe the blouse and skirt another time, because the stuff is so expensive and it takes a long time to hand sew everything (and Norwegian Bunads have a *lot* of beautiful embroidery on it). I think Vesterheim might actually offer classes in this country, and carry the stuff from Husfliden. But again, you'd have to go to Deocrah IO for them (well, it's closer than Norway). No kits. Sweden is much looser. Although all the patterns and supplies are available through the Hemslojden outlets, anyone can buy things and make them or have them shipped over here. To my knowledge, Denmark doesn't even have a chain of stores that carry patterns or supplies. I'd love to find out details if they do (Bjarne?)!! -Judy Mitchell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 08:48:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04744 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:47:59 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10743; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:01:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id HAA29799 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 07:59:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id HAA29789 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 07:59:08 -0600 (MDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6NVDa23861 (4186) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:57:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:57:40 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: stays To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 7/20/99 12:15:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, baddorf@inil.com writes: << At the very least -- it is quite possible to do without any dressform. >> How DO you fit yourself????? Someone else must get the hem as, if you bend to pin it, the position of the skirt changes. How do you fit the back "on yourself?" Another person must do the fitting [per your directions] don't they? Then you're sorta back to "They're never around." Besides....I look stupid in a dress! I'm a man. You are correct tho' that doing on a real body is best. It's just so much easier when it's someone else's. And a dummy can be used to work out everything but minor adjustments. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 08:52:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04903 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:52:23 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11377; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:06:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA00735 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:04:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA00728 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:04:08 -0600 (MDT) From: SNSpies@aol.com Received: from SNSpies@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6KVVa06416 (583) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:03:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <791843d5.24c5db9a@aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:03:06 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com Hello to the list. << I think Vesterheim might actually offer classes in this country, and carry the stuff from Husfliden. But again, you'd have to go to Deocrah IO for them (well, it's closer than Norway). >> Vesterheim Norwegian-American Museum does have videos on making bunads. There is one that shows how the wool for the Setesdal bunad is prepared -- a truly amazing process! There is another video that shows the traditional cutting and sewing techniques. Really really interesting stuff. You can rent the videos. Nancy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 09:23:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA05450 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 09:23:43 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17077; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:37:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id IAA06698 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:35:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from komarr.local.thibault.org (adsl-151-197-16-76.bellatlantic.net [151.197.16.76]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA06688 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 08:35:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thibault.org (granny.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.16]) by komarr.local.thibault.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15528 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:34:48 -0400 Message-ID: <3794890A.3B7ECDC4@thibault.org> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:34:57 -0400 From: Cynthia Virtue Organization: Virtue Ventures http://www.virtue.to X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question References: <37933151.C992BA0E@thibault.org> <3793AD89.C1094DB4@thibault.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Cynthia Virtue Judy wrote: > The Costume Board is very concerned about the purity and quality of > their traditional costumes (Bunads). And only handsewing, and only on the > proper fabrics. So if you make your own (approximating fabrics and so forth) and wear it without the certification, do they fine you? This is really interesting, because if so, it's basically a sumptuary law, which most of us think of as a thing from the past. > I think Vesterheim might actually offer classes in this country, and carry > the stuff from Husfliden. But again, you'd have to go to Deocrah IO for them > (well, it's closer than Norway). No kits. Ready-made and really nice pictures can be found at http://www.kalama.com/~heatscan/bunad/welcome.html The site implies that you can get kits from Husflid, but it's not very explicitly spelled out. Finished, the cost for one women's outfit looks like it's in the $3,000+ range, and a kit which has all the pieces with the embroidery already done is less. Oy! -- Cynthia du Pre Argent "The more you can increase fear of drugs & crime, welfare mothers, immigrants & aliens, the more you control all the people." -- Noam Chomsky _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 13:15:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA09506 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:15:33 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25576; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:27:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id MAA00496 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:25:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zeus.directcon.net (zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with ESMTP id MAA00484 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:25:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r4p45.directcon.net [206.170.184.94]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA23503 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907201825.LAA23503@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: H-COST:dressforms, was stays Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson A >><< Do you make your costumes on a dresstand that is fitted to the period? >> A modern dresstand is not good to fit garments on i think, the bust is >> wrong. >> Just curious. >> >> >>I have a foam dummy that squishes. But this too is not flesh & I have to pad >>the top of the bust because it doesn't get pushed up like flesh but just >>squishes in....like foam. Also a dummy slightly smaller than you need can be >>padded to the correct shape. I'm in the early busines planning stages for a historical pattern business, and trying to figure out what kind of dress form would be best to use. My own body is not a desirable base for a graded pattern. Would it be better to buy a somewhat smaller rigid form and pad it up, or should I get one of the foam ones? Can anyone recommend brands? Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 18:00:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA14215 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:00:06 -0400 Received: from indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18250; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:12:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) id RAA07326 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:10:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f78.hotmail.com [216.32.181.78]) by indra.com (8.8.5/Spike-8-1.1) with SMTP id RAA07317 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:10:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 45489 invoked by uid 0); 20 Jul 1999 23:03:20 -0000 Message-ID: <19990720230320.45488.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.12.2.79 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:03:19 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.12.2.79] From: "Tara German" To: h-costume@indra.com, sca-garb@list.umv.edu, h-needlework@ansteorra.org Subject: H-COST: mail order supplier feedback Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:03:19 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Tara German" Greetings, fellow needleworkers, It looks like many of us are dependent on mail order for our books and supplies. I save the information that you've all shared about which mail order suppliers and businesses are trustworthy and give good service. I imagine that others are interested in the same type of information. I finally decided to create a website where people can review and leave feedback (both positive and negative) about their mail order and online shopping experiences. The main page is at http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/Plaza/4884/contents.html . There are links to what will be different categories of merchants and a link to an online form you can fill out and submit. Since I have to wait for some feedback aside from my own :-), there are no reviews there yet. Rest assured that I will _NOT_ include anything that I've saved from previous list postings, nor will I post anything that is shared on this list in the future unless I'm specifically told to do so. Apologies for the duplicate posts if you are on more than one of these lists. This may be forwarded to other lists you're a member of, provided they have to do with sewing, costuming, or needlework. Tara _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 18:38:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA14959 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:38:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23412; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:51:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA16325 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:47:41 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from web601.yahoomail.com (web1104.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.124]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA16317 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:47:38 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19990720234747.8835.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Received: from [38.226.171.41] by web1104.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:47:47 EDT Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:47:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Carol Mitchell Subject: Re: H-COST: mail order supplier feedback To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Carol Mitchell Hi If this page is supposed to be accessible, there's a problem. Geocities says it doesn't exist. === Carol Mitchell President Chicagoland Costumer's Guild _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 18:56:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15275 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:56:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA25450; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:09:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA19384 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:05:56 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from m2.boston.juno.com (m2.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.199]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA19374 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:05:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from kayherb@juno.com) by m2.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EFZS3AXL; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:03:31 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Pinning hems on yourself Message-ID: <19990711.071920.5231.9.kayherb@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,11-13,16-21 From: "Kathryn L. Herb" Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:03:31 EDT Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Kathryn L. Herb" I inherited my mom's Dritz hem marker. Dunno the age of it -- it's been around as long as I can remember. Basically it's a slim metal stand with a vertical measuring stick. Attached to it is a squeeze ball and air line set up so that, when you squeeze, it blows a small line of loose chalk onto the fabric. You set the correct height of the bottom of the hem and stand next to the marker, squeezing the ball and turning yourself around to mark the hem. I believe the lowest hem mark is about 6" off the ground, but you can stand on a book or something else to raise yourself up if you need less than that clearance. Odd little contraption, but it works! I'm certain that I saw them on the market about three years ago, but I haven't had a reason to notice them since then. It wouldn't be difficult to make one up yourself. Kay Herb kayherb@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 19:16:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA15634 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:16:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA27296; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:29:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA22722 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:27:18 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mx20.rmci.net (saturn.rmci.net [205.162.184.38]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA22714 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:27:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 4024 invoked from network); 21 Jul 1999 00:24:24 -0000 Received: from pag-di87.rica.net (HELO rica.net) (209.211.110.87) by mx20.rmci.net with SMTP; 21 Jul 1999 00:24:24 -0000 Message-ID: <3795131F.29D4467F@rica.net> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:24:00 -0400 From: Jennie Chancey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Source for printed voile, lawn or organdy? References: <2.2.32.19990614055726.0082e380@mail.widomaker.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Jennie Chancey I am having the hardest time finding white on white voile (or other sheer materials). I used to be able to get the striped and floral voile at JoAnne Fabrics, but they don't cary it anymore. I have been looking all over the web, but I have had no luck. Does anyone have a source (US or foreign) for white on white voile, lawn or organdy? Thanks in advance, Jennie -- Sense and Sensibility http://www.sensibility.com winsome clothing with an old-fashioned appeal _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 19:54:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA16300 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:54:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01660; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:07:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA28236 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:03:59 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f139.hotmail.com [216.32.181.139]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA28228 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:03:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 29353 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jul 1999 01:03:26 -0000 Message-ID: <19990721010326.29352.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.12.1.160 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:03:25 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.12.1.160] From: "Tara German" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: mail order supplier feedback Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 01:03:25 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: RO -Poster: "Tara German" >Hi >If this page is supposed to be accessible, there's a problem. Geocities >says it doesn't exist. Could someone else please try this out? It comes up fine for me. Could it only be accessible to me because I'm the one who created it? http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/Plaza/4884/contents.html Thanks, Tara _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 19:54:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA16304 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:54:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01749; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:08:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA28535 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:06:00 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f69.hotmail.com [216.32.181.69]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA28529 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:05:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 52149 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jul 1999 01:02:31 -0000 Message-ID: <19990721010231.52148.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.12.1.160 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:02:31 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.12.1.160] From: "Tara German" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: mail order supplier feedback Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 01:02:31 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Tara German" >Hi >If this page is supposed to be accessible, there's a problem. Geocities >says it doesn't exist. Could someone else please try this out? It comes up fine for me. Could it only be accessible to me because I'm the one who created it? http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/Plaza/4884/contents.html Thanks, Tara _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 19:58:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA16317 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:57:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02145; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:10:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA28858 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:08:15 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mailhost.neaccess.net (mailhost.neaccess.net [204.255.214.236]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA28840 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:08:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer (camb0112.capecod.net [209.244.244.112]) by mailhost.neaccess.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id VAA10377 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:08:10 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990720210747.00766170@neaccess.net> X-Sender: kenton@neaccess.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:07:47 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Donna Kenton Subject: Re: H-COST: mail order supplier feedback In-Reply-To: <19990721010231.52148.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Donna Kenton Fine for me. Donna At 01:02 AM 7/21/99 GMT, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Tara German" > >>Hi >>If this page is supposed to be accessible, there's a problem. Geocities >>says it doesn't exist. > >Could someone else please try this out? It comes up fine for me. Could it >only be accessible to me because I'm the one who created it? >http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/Plaza/4884/contents.html > >Thanks, >Tara > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 20:05:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA16473 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:05:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03232; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:18:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA29988 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:16:04 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f84.hotmail.com [216.32.181.84]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA29975 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:16:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 52373 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jul 1999 01:15:31 -0000 Message-ID: <19990721011531.52372.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.12.1.160 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:15:29 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.12.1.160] From: "Tara German" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: mail order supplier feedback Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 01:15:29 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Tara German" Hi everyone, I received a message via private e-mail suggesting that if you have negative comments about a vendor, there should be some details and an explanation of the situation that led you to feel that way. I agree. If you had an unsatisfactory experience with a vendor please do explain why rather than simply saying they were awful. For that matter, it would also be nice to hear details on why a particular merchant is good. Tara http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/Plaza/4884/contents.html _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 20:07:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA16484 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:07:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03709; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:20:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA00683 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:18:26 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00674 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:18:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sue.computercrafters.com (pm3frd1-68-103.intrepid.net [206.102.68.103]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA02652 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:18:21 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990720212107.007f76f0@intrepid.net> X-Sender: sshatto@intrepid.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:21:07 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Sue Shatto Subject: Re: H-COST: mail order supplier feedback In-Reply-To: <19990721010231.52148.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Sue Shatto tara, It worked fine for me. At 01:02 AM 7/21/99 GMT, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Tara German" > >>Hi >>If this page is supposed to be accessible, there's a problem. Geocities >>says it doesn't exist. > >Could someone else please try this out? It comes up fine for me. Could it >only be accessible to me because I'm the one who created it? >http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/Plaza/4884/contents.html > >Thanks, >Tara > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > Cordially, Sue Shatto Sue@VictorianMillinery.com http://www.VictorianMillinery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 20:44:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA17123 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:44:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA09360; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:58:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA05865 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:55:32 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mongoose.slip.net (mongoose.slip.net [207.171.193.14]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA05855 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:55:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [207.171.230.175] (helo=default) by mongoose.slip.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #4) id 116lbV-0001hu-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:55:29 -0700 X-Sender: cjcannon@pop.slip.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:55:29 -0700 To: h-costume@indra.com From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Subject: Re: H-COST: mail order supplier feedback In-Reply-To: <19990721010326.29352.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Tara http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/Plaza/4884/contents.html worked just fine for me. -- Carol _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 21:33:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA17910 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:33:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15779; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:45:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA13186 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:42:50 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from hotmail.com (wya-lfd122.hotmail.com [207.82.252.186]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA13180 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:42:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 51414 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jul 1999 02:42:17 -0000 Message-ID: <19990721024217.51413.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 198.248.210.97 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:42:17 PDT X-Originating-IP: [198.248.210.97] From: "christianna del Oro" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Re: mail order supplier feedback Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:42:17 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "christianna del Oro" > > >>Hi >>If this page is supposed to be accessible, there's a problem. Geocities >>says it doesn't exist. > >Could someone else please try this out? It comes up fine for me. Could it >only be accessible to me because I'm the one who created it? >http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/Plaza/4884/contents.html > >Thanks, >Tara > I GOT TO IT IT LOOKS LIKE IT WILL BE A GOOD SOURCE THANKS _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 21:39:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA17933 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:39:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17004; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:52:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA14123 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:50:18 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14113 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 20:50:16 -0600 (MDT) From: KMash15642@aol.com Received: from KMash15642@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6JFYa27414 (3874) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:48:07 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Re: mail order supplier feedback To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 15 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: KMash15642@aol.com It works fine for me (kim) new _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 22:01:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA18405 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:01:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19284; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:15:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA17715 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:12:45 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17705 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:12:43 -0600 (MDT) From: AliaClaire@aol.com Received: from AliaClaire@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6DHIa08371 (4113) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:11:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3a1f84bd.24c69469@aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:11:37 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Source for printed voile, lawn or organdy? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 15 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com In a message dated 7/20/99 7:28:50 PM EST, jchancey@rica.net writes: << Does anyone have a source (US or foreign) for white on white voile, lawn or organdy? >> The fabric from Victoria Louise is expensive, but it is lovely quality. They have many types of sheer and light fabrics- I don't own any yet, but I've drooled over a few dresses made of their voiles. Victoria Louise, Mercers http://www.fred.net/stull/victoria.html -Alison Stacy AliaClaire@aol.com Canton, Ohio _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 20 22:08:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA18438 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:08:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20107; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:22:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA18649 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:19:58 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18639 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:19:55 -0600 (MDT) From: DzMzLzy@aol.com Received: from DzMzLzy@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6TWKa24269 (4247) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:18:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1c6a1d43.24c69620@aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:18:56 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST:dressforms, was stays To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: DzMzLzy@aol.com Margo - Your post caught my eye, since I am also in this process. The professional grade of dressmaker dummies are firm, but you can pad them out to get larger sizes and softer bodies. Question for you: how do you plan to determine sizes and grading? Liz Gerds > > I'm in the early business planning stages for a historical pattern business, > and trying to figure out what kind of dress form would be best to use. My > own body is not a desirable base for a graded pattern. > > Would it be better to buy a somewhat smaller rigid form and pad it up, or > should I get one of the foam ones? Can anyone recommend brands? > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 00:41:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA21098 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 00:41:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03594; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:55:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA08207 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:52:22 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from web128.yahoomail.com (web128.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.197]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA08198 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 1999 23:52:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19990721055326.6587.rocketmail@web128.yahoomail.com> Received: from [153.35.255.54] by web128.yahoomail.com; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 01:53:26 EDT Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 01:53:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Kristen M. Sieber" Subject: Re: H-COST: mail order supplier feedback To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Kristen M. Sieber" --- Tara German wrote: I imagine that others are interested in the same type > of information. I > finally decided to create a website where people can > review and leave > feedback (both positive and negative) about their > mail order and online > shopping experiences. > > This is a good idea. Is it possible to convince the people to leave e-mail addresses and/or phone numbers of the merchants? Kristen Morgaine Sieber _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 01:52:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA21926 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 01:52:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA07607; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 01:05:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA14767 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 01:02:47 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from relay03.netaddress.usa.net (relay03.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.183]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA14759 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 01:02:45 -0600 (MDT) From: griffinhold@usa.net Received: (qmail 3347 invoked from network); 21 Jul 1999 07:02:44 -0000 Received: from nw176.netaddress.usa.net (204.68.24.76) by outbound.netaddress.usa.net with SMTP; 21 Jul 1999 07:02:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 20019 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Jul 1999 07:02:43 -0000 Message-ID: <19990721070243.20018.qmail@nw176.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.76 by nw176 via web-mailer(M3.2.0.53) on Wed Jul 21 07:02:43 GMT 1999 Date: 21 Jul 99 01:02:43 MDT To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.2.0.53) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id BAA14760 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: RO -Poster: griffinhold@usa.net >four months in the same area of the world; touring to Berlin, Dresden, >Prague, Vienna, Budapest, Cracow, and Warsaw I don't know Berlin, Dresden or Warsaw, but I've been to the other cities. I'll have to check notes for Prague. Cracow is a lovely city which I enjoyed very much. Special things there are a gothic church completely painted inside in Art Nouveau. You need to go to the medieval marketplace in the center of town. Also, I found glass Xmas ornaments there for a fraction of the price in the US. Budapest you need to see the National Museum. Lovely stuff - an opus anglicanum cope and a 15th century gown (tho I'm still not sure if they have the correct underdress with it). Try the wine tasting shop near the cathedral. Vienna - the mian attraction for me was the Schatzkammer with the vestments of the Holy Roman Empire and the Order of the Golden Fleece. Also the Kunsthistorique. Try the MAK, I enjoyed that. If you want more specific recommendations, let me know and I'll get references. I'm doing this from memory. Now for my question. I'm going to be taking a class near Oxnard. I remember going to the fabric district in LA several years ago when I had a chance to go to Costume College. However, I don't remember anything about how to get there or hours that they're open. Could someone please send directions? Also, can anyone recommend good shops? I'm primarily interested in the standards - silk, wool and linen (though linen is one of the few affordable fabrics in Italy). I'll be happy to receive answers off the list rather than waste bandwidth. Thanks a lot! Lyn Gillespie ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 03:00:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA22909 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 03:00:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA10924; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 02:10:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA20914 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 02:07:43 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f230.hotmail.com [216.32.181.230]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA20909 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 02:07:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 16682 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jul 1999 08:07:11 -0000 Message-ID: <19990721080711.16681.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.12.28.101 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 01:07:10 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.12.28.101] From: "Tara German" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: mail order supplier feedback Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:07:10 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Tara German" >This is a good idea. Is it possible to convince the >people to leave e-mail addresses and/or phone numbers >of the merchants? I'll put a suggestion on the form and people can provide it if they want. The intent of this page is not to be a supplier list, as many good ones already exist. (E.g. Drea Leed's website at http://www.dnaco.net/~aleed/corsets/ and The Costume Page at http://members.aol.com/nebula5/costume.html Tara _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 04:14:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA24069 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 04:14:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA15454; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 03:23:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA29899 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 03:20:57 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from RBAD33.RBACRXCLU.BAS.ROCHE.COM (mail-external-basel.bas.roche.com [196.3.50.190]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA29729 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 03:20:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com (rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com [145.245.211.139]) by Roche.COM (PMDF V5.2-31 #33472) with ESMTP id <01JDTOT3FPYY9DHX73@Roche.COM> for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:18:53 +0200 Received: by rbamsemcn1.bas.roche.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:18:50 +0200 Content-return: allowed Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:18:48 +0200 From: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Subject: RE: H-COST: mail order supplier feedback To: "'h-costume@indra.com'" , h-needlework@ansteorra.org Message-id: <431EB483DFB4D111A2D50000F843C5C401009E4E@rwemsem2.wel.roche.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Holliday, Rachel {DISC~Welwyn}" Tara I have started putting up this kind of information on my web site as well. Mine, however is for UK suppliers and as yet isn't really very full. Anyone who wants to add something please email me. The address is: http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/witchwood/embroi/index.html It's the resources section. It's going to be redone soon so bookmark the index page and then you shouldn't get a dead link. Rachel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 07:19:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26973 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 07:19:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA24630; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:29:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA28212 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:22:36 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from bajor.ici.net (bajor.ici.net [207.180.0.58]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA28204 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:22:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (d-gnaps-79.ici.net [207.180.12.86]) by bajor.ici.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA25580 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:21:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907211221.IAA25580@bajor.ici.net> Subject: H-COST: Burnout Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:22:31 -0400 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Irene leNoir To: "H-Costume" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id GAA28207 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Irene leNoir Hello Everyone, I have a question about burnout (eg. devore velvet and such). My understanding was that the way that it works is to apply some sort of caustic chemical to a fabric of mixed fiber content. The chemical eats away one of the fibers but leaves the other intact. So devore velvets can be created from velvets with a base of one fiber and a pile of another. Also, I have a lovely scrolly design burnout that was done on a poly/cotton evenweave. As near as I can tell, the threads were cotton wrapped with a polyester core. The areas on the fabric that have been burned out have a thinner thread, where the cotton wrapping appears to have been removed. Anyway, my local fabric store has a burnout satin for sale that they claim is 100% silk. My question is, how can you do a burnout on a single fiber content? Does anyone know? Jessica Clark SCA: Irène leNoir irene@ici.net http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 08:26:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA28122 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:26:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA01595; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 07:38:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA06725 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 07:33:04 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.12]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA06715 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 07:33:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem1.barney.pol.co.uk ([195.92.7.1] helo=herimats) by svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 116wUV-0005OL-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:33:00 +0100 Message-ID: <002401bed37d$917db520$01075cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: References: <199907211221.IAA25580@bajor.ici.net> Subject: Re: H-COST: Burnout Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:32:34 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" From: Irene leNoir Anyway, my local fabric store has a burnout satin for sale that they claim is 100% silk. My question is, how can you do a burnout on a single fiber content? Does anyone know? Is this the one that you can paint or print a design on using a "resist" sometimes wax, sometimes a special paint; I have seen something on Tv where whole lengths of material were screen printed and then put in an acid (?) bath; the effects were amazing. I think it only works on organic fibres. I made a mental note but never followed up any of the ideas i had from seeing it. I have also seen some wallhangings on an exhibition that seemed to be done the same way. They were on a backing material as the dressings were very very fine.. It seems to be a differnet process from the one that uses a special two piece material. Dave _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 09:49:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA29443 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:49:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10901; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:59:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA19823 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:46:23 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@[205.217.210.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19809 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:46:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.217.218.196] (ell141.acadia.net [205.217.218.196]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA06775 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:44:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: pulliam@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:46:05 -0500 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Subject: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> This is more than a bit of a stretch, I think. Sumptuary laws *attempted* to control who could wear what, based specifically on class and income. I don't see how controlling how specific items of clothing are made could be construed in the same way. Seems like more of a quality control issue. Deborah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 10:19:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA29973 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:19:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15120; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:30:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA27595 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:24:35 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27589 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:24:33 -0600 (MDT) From: trekona@erols.com Received: from erols.com (207-172-133-241.s241.tnt6.col.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.133.241]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA13804 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:24:35 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question Date: Thu, 22 Jul 99 03:33:51 GMT Message-ID: References: <37933151.C992BA0E@thibault.org> <3793AD89.C1094DB4@thibault.org> <3794890A.3B7ECDC4@thibault.org> X-Mailer: Quarterdeck Message Center [2.00] Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: trekona@erols.com > -Poster: Cynthia Virtue > > Judy wrote: > > > The Costume Board is very concerned about the purity and quality of > > their traditional costumes (Bunads). And only handsewing, and only on the > > proper fabrics. > > So if you make your own (approximating fabrics and so forth) and wear it > without the certification, do they fine you? > > This is really interesting, because if so, it's basically a sumptuary > law, which most of us think of as a thing from the past. I don't know what they do- I've often wondered about that. I suspect that it just doesn't happen due to a different mindset than the American "I'll do what I darn well want anyway!" that has developed our country into the innovative thing that it is (it's not necessarily a *bad* attitude, but it is rude as seen by others). Since they have this strict policy set by a Norwegian Costume Board, it tends to make me wonder about the 'costume police' coming in and taking away your stuff if it's not right! ;-) But honestly I don't think you can decently approximate the fabrics, they are specially made for the bunads. I mean, ok many of them use a lot of black wool but the wool is a certain thickness that we don't find; most black wool that I see is either very heavy blanket stuff, or suit-weight which doesn't feel right either. It's just not going to look right. -Judy Mitchell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 10:25:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA30121 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:25:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15926; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:37:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA29134 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:32:33 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.6.11]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29120 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:32:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) id <01JDTYPGYQE800C27D@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:38:05 BST Received: from mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk (mdx-ref1.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.57.8]) by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) with ESMTP id <01JDTYK4K2L0009SUC@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:57:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from MDX-REF1/SpoolDir by mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk (Mercury 1.44); Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:52:11 +1100 Received: from SpoolDir by MDX-REF1 (Mercury 1.44); Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:51:43 +1100 Received: from bg_lib_07475 (158.94.53.126) by mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk (Mercury 1.44); Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:51:40 +1100 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:51:40 +0000 (GMT) From: teddy1 Subject: H-COST: Simplicity Italian Ren Pattern - HELP! In-reply-to: <199907210006.SAA19438@net.indra.com> To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Message-id: <937C8F945D2@mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk> Organization: Middlesex University MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: teddy1 Hello H-costumers, I'm kind of stuck! A friend (who had intendedto avoid "Medieval" for her wedding as "everyone's" done that recently in our circle) fell in love with the Simplicity Italian Ren pattern (the one that looks like it was put out to link with the release of "Ever After") She wants the v-neck, just-off-the-shoulder, view A version. Anyhow, she turned up last night for a 3 day visit so I could start her dress and I made up a mock-up of the bodice to fit on her. It fits fine everywhere except the front neckline - which gapes horribly. I've tried taking the excess out of the centre front and the shoulder seams and that doesn't work at all - the rest of it won't sit right then - the only place I could get rid of the excess fabric seems to be by pinning two big darts, one either side of the bust, tapering off into the armhole or just below. I thought I could cut new front pieces taking this into account but, when laid flat, the patern-piece now looks like an *on* the shoulder bodice with a distorted V neck and the armhole isn't the same shape either. Has anyone on the list used this pattern yet? Did you have these problems? Is it something simple that I'm just missing or too brain- fried to see? I'm going to experiment some more tonight with various calico/muslin mock-ups but it's not the straight forward job we envisioned and I don't want the bride-to-be ending up dishartened by this and going away worried that her dress won't work (she's already had to bring the wedding forward a year due to her father's worsening health...) If anyone had any tips or ideas, I'd be really grateful Teddy (juat a seam-width short of panic!) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 10:32:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA30280 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:32:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16772; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:41:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA00202 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:37:56 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00194 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:37:54 -0600 (MDT) From: RobesOf@aol.com Received: from RobesOf@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6IVEa10249 (91) for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:36:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3a203247.24c742ee@aol.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:36:14 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Burnout To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com << Anyway, my local fabric store has a burnout satin for sale that they claim is 100% silk. My question is, how can you do a burnout on a single fiber content? Does anyone know? >> Are you asking how to make burn-out silk? If so, I have an article I saved from a Threads magazine. It tells how to make your own burn-out design on rayon/silk velvets. Anyone interested in the article may email me privately. I will scan the article and attach it as a JPEG for you to read. Hope this helps. Erica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 10:41:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA30485 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:41:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17897; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:49:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01675 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:44:08 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01670 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:44:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [209.63.113.241] (209-63-113-241.sea.jps.net [209.63.113.241]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA12054 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907211543.IAA12054@smtp6.jps.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.0c (197) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:46:16 -0700 Subject: H-COST: Modern Sumptuary laws From: "R.L. Shep" To: h-costume@indra.com Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "R.L. Shep" Interesting train of thought. It could be said that they have sumptuary laws in Bhutan where they make people wear a certain type national dress - I say a certain type because it never was the national dress of ALL the people in Bhutan... the Layla - I think the spellng is right - had a different type dress. I don't know what they do about the Nepalese who live in the lowlands except discriminate against them. It used to be that people had to wear national dress when going in the dzong and doing official business. Now according to what I hear, everyone has to wear it all the time. AND - of course - the restricitons on dress in many of the Arab and other Muslim countries could be said to come under this catagory. ~!~ R.L.Shep http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks ---------- >From: trekona@erols.com >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: Re: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question >Date: Wed, Jul 21, 1999, 8:33 PM > > >-Poster: trekona@erols.com > > > >> -Poster: Cynthia Virtue >> >> Judy wrote: >> >> > The Costume Board is very concerned about the purity and quality of >> > their traditional costumes (Bunads). And only handsewing, and only on the >> > proper fabrics. >> >> So if you make your own (approximating fabrics and so forth) and wear it >> without the certification, do they fine you? >> >> This is really interesting, because if so, it's basically a sumptuary >> law, which most of us think of as a thing from the past. > > I don't know what they do- I've often wondered about that. I suspect that >it just doesn't happen due to a different mindset than the American "I'll do >what I darn well want anyway!" that has developed our country into the >innovative thing that it is (it's not necessarily a *bad* attitude, but it is >rude as seen by others). Since they have this strict policy set by a Norwegian >Costume Board, it tends to make me wonder about the 'costume police' coming in >and taking away your stuff if it's not right! ;-) > But honestly I don't think you can decently approximate the fabrics, they >are specially made for the bunads. I mean, ok many of them use a lot of black >wool but the wool is a certain thickness that we don't find; most black wool >that I see is either very heavy blanket stuff, or suit-weight which doesn't >feel right either. It's just not going to look right. > -Judy Mitchell > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 12:49:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA32580 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:49:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07465; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:58:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA29253 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:53:19 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from eclipse.pacifier.com (eclipse.pacifier.com [199.2.117.78]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29246 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:53:17 -0600 (MDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com Received: from grendal2 (ip154.van17.pacifier.com [216.65.137.154]) by eclipse.pacifier.com (8.9.3/8.9.3pop) with SMTP id KAA15390 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907211753.KAA15390@eclipse.pacifier.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 10:57:14 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > <<< law, which most of us think of as a thing from the past > This is more than a bit of a stretch, I think. > Sumptuary laws *attempted* to control who could wear what, based > specifically on class and income. > > I don't see how controlling how specific items of clothing are made could > be construed in the same way. Seems like more of a quality control issue. Many of the sumptuary laws were issues of quality control, such as the restrictions against using Logwood dyed fabrics in Elizabethan England. The "class and income" laws were very much like the bunad laws: they were there to maintain "purity" (which in the middle ages meant maintaining class distinctions.) They came at a time when the nobility was looking very much askance at the up and coming middle class who were "aping" them. Others were to stimulate the economy, like the ones about woad in the middle ages and the ones regarding the wearing of felted knitted caps in Elizabethan England. Some were combinations of "quality" and a way of getting income for the government (much like the enforcement of speeding laws now) such as some of the fabric and color restrictions in 15th Century Italy. How successful the sumptuary laws were is something we can hotly debate but can't really know. It has parallels to things like the contemporary French laws regarding what you are and aren't allowed to name your children. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 13:41:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00819 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:41:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14789; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:44:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA07845 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:33:33 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07839 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 12:33:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.net (pool0621.cvx8-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.172.111]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05589 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3796147E.30F4DF6C@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 11:42:07 -0700 From: Scott Hulett X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Simplicity Italian Ren Pattern - HELP! References: <937C8F945D2@mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Scott Hulett Teddy, I'm raking through my memory for a conversation I had with a Caiden Laurel about just this cutting problem. Does the pattern ask you to cut with the neck hole on the straight or the bias? Dredge, dig, shuffle. It seems to me she said to cut the v-portion of the neck on the bias. My 18th c cote pattern says the same. Maybe a mock up made on the bias would help? Cheers, jd teddy1 wrote: > -Poster: teddy1 > > Hello H-costumers, > > I'm kind of stuck! A friend (who had intendedto avoid "Medieval" for > her wedding as "everyone's" done that recently in our circle) fell in > love with the Simplicity Italian Ren pattern (the one that looks like it > was put out to link with the release of "Ever After") She wants the > v-neck, just-off-the-shoulder, view A version. > > Anyhow, she turned up last night for a 3 day visit so I could start > her dress and I made up a mock-up of the bodice to fit on her. It > fits fine everywhere except the front neckline - which gapes horribly. > > I've tried taking the excess out of the centre front and the shoulder > seams and that doesn't work at all - the rest of it won't sit right then > - the only place I could get rid of the excess fabric seems to be by > pinning two big darts, one either side of the bust, tapering off into > the armhole or just below. > > I thought I could cut new front pieces taking this into account but, > when laid flat, the patern-piece now looks like an *on* the shoulder > bodice with a distorted V neck and the armhole isn't the same > shape either. > > Has anyone on the list used this pattern yet? Did you have these > problems? Is it something simple that I'm just missing or too brain- > fried to see? > > I'm going to experiment some more tonight with various > calico/muslin mock-ups but it's not the straight forward job we > envisioned and I don't want the bride-to-be ending up dishartened > by this and going away worried that her dress won't work (she's > already had to bring the wedding forward a year due to her father's > worsening health...) > > If anyone had any tips or ideas, I'd be really grateful > > Teddy > (juat a seam-width short of panic!) > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 14:29:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01530 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:29:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23905; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:38:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA20119 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:35:48 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20114 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:35:47 -0600 (MDT) From: Ltondreau@aol.com Received: from Ltondreau@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6SNWa01153 (14383); Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:34:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <78305097.24c77aba@aol.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:34:18 EDT Subject: H-COST: Civil War Simplicity Patterns To: h-costume@indra.com CC: Ltondreau@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 11 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Ltondreau@aol.com I would like to construct a Civil War military outfit..perhaps a general's garment. How authentic are these patterns produced by Simplicity? What reference books are suggested to view the designs of these garments? Where can I purchase truly authentic patterns of military attire? And what about the actual fabric, buttons, braiding, etc. used during this period? Where are the sources for these items? Simplicity says: suggested fabrics: broadcloth and poplin. Are these fabrics of a certain weight? Is this what was used during the Civil War? I would like to create this outfit to represent the most accurately correctdesign possible...........Much thanks to this matter! Luecella M. Tondreau Designer, Patternmaker, Seamstress _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 15:53:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA03088 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:52:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06440; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:02:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA08326 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:55:18 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08315 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:55:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [38.30.214.215] (ip215.washington13.dc.pub-ip.psi.net [38.30.214.215]) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA14428; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 13:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907212055.NAA14428@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Subject: H-COST: Fwd: Nineteenth c. bridal colors vs white? Date: Wed, 21 Jul 99 16:59:49 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: margo king To: "Historic Costume" , "DC Costume List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: margo king Subject: Nineteenth c. bridal colors vs white? Sent: 7/16/19 3:43 AM Received: 7/21/99 4:53 PM From: Jadene Felina Stevens, saltwnd@banet.net Hope someone of these list can help Jadene. If so reply to her at her above address. Thanks, Margo King Hello, I've been "listening in" for awhile and now have a query which I'm hoping you might be able to help me with... What colors were thought fashionable in America circa 1830-1890? When did white come to be thought of as the "bridal color"? If anyone can provide suggestions as to where I might be able to search for such information, I'd be be most interested. I have been reading about the great chore that most ladies encountered on washday in regard to their personal wardrobes, and to the various methods that had to be carefully adhered to in regard to the dyes. If one was not too careful the dyes would fade and/or run. The garments had to be laid out flat in the shade to dry, since to fold them or leave them crumbled for any length of time tended to make the dyes run into uneven patches... Hence, one possible reason that Emily Dickinson adopted white in later years. It would certainly have simplified her life, freeing more time which she could then devote to her writing. The comments on the dyes, and ED's possible choice of white were offered by author Kathryn Whitford in an essay called, "Why Emily Dickinson Wore White." She did not go into any detail in regard to the questions that I pose...at least, not in the excerpted article that I came across. (I'm trying to locate a copy of the essay in full.) Thanks, Jadene _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 16:22:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA03653 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:22:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09885; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:29:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA15696 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:27:05 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15683 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:27:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA22645 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37963B89.9DB4177E@serv.net> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:28:41 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Civil War Simplicity Patterns References: <78305097.24c77aba@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > How authentic are these patterns produced by Simplicity? While I don't do Civil War, I can tell you that any of the Simplicity costume patterns (and the others, Butterick, McCalls, etc..) are not authentic. They might have the look or the silhouette but not authentic. Some are even pretty darn good patterns if you just want a quick pattern. But that's about it. > Simplicity says: suggested fabrics: broadcloth and poplin. Are these > fabrics of a certain weight? Is this what was used during the Civil War? I can tell you right now and feel *very* comfortable with this, that Civil War uniforms were most likely always wool. Wool of different weights depending on north or south, hot or cold, but wool. I can't imagine broadcloth or poplin. Now I have definitely been known to be incorrect, I'm not perfect, and in the instance, *NOT* an expert. So definitely get another opinion. Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 17:36:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04797 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:36:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18958; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:42:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA06149 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:35:05 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp1-alterdial.uu.net (alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.22]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06117 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:35:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jwilbur1 by smtp1-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: 119.pcpool89.corp.us.uu.net [153.39.89.119]) id QQgywo13285 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:35:02 GMT Message-Id: From: "Jessica Wilbur" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:34:41 -0400 Subject: H-COST: Mystery Flemish Book of Hours? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" Hello everyone, I ran across some note cards that someone gave me a few years ago. They are really cool, but the blurb on the back only says "Book of Hours, Flemish, c. 1500." They are from the Fitzwilliam Museum Cambridge. The cards have "daily life" scenes: minstrels, a boating party, people gathering grapes, people making wine from said grapes, two guys working in a field of grain, and a man and a woman dining before a fire. There is a lot of gold highlighting the clothing in the illumination. The three minstrels are wearing French bonnets and gowns, two of which have long hanging sleeves with slits at the elbow for the arm to come out the front of the sleeve. They are all wearing shirts with gathered necklines underneath. They are wearing hose with square-toed shoes. In the boating party, the men are wearing overgowns with wide lapels (for lack of a better word), more elaborate hats and have their hair dressed in ringlets. There are two women who are pictured fully (a third is cut off). One is facing forward and the other is facing away (a back view, yay!) The forward facing one is wearing a square-necked gown with a black kirtle underneath, and a transitional-type hood. It is not a gable headdress or a French hood. The woman with her back to us is wearing a blue gown with has a v-neckline in back, with a thin belt. You can see the back of her cap with two lappets hanging down. In the scene of people stomping grapes, there is a woman wearing a short-sleeved red gown, with a green skirt underneath (I assume it's a full kirtle). The white sleeves of her smock are the only thing on her arms. She is wearing a linen type cap. The guy in the vat is wearing a blue gown over a white shirt, wearing a black cap that looks like a bowl on his head. The gown is open in the front, held shut with a band (belt?) around the middle, like a bathrobe. In the gathering grapes scene, the man is wearing what looks kind of like a houpelande or short tunic, slight v in the back neckline, with a slit up the side in the hem. He has a black hat on but I can't tell any details. The woman is wearing a blue gown with no sleeves and the white smock sleeves are showing. She is also wearing a linen cap, and a black shoe peeks out from under her hem. In the picture of field workers, you can't really see much of their clothing, because they are up to their chests in rows of wheat! But one man is wearing a flat-crowned straw hat, a blue tunic with no sleeves, and a white shirt. The other is wearing another black hat whose details I can't see, and a red tunic. The last picture is a dining scene. The woman is wearing a red gown with a black kirtle, and you can see a small strip of something white at the neck under the kirtle, probably her smock. She is wearing a beguine headdress. The man is wearing a long blue gown, with gold at the neck, hem and cuffs. He is wearing a black French bonnet type hat and black shoes. There is a man crouched down by the fireplace, wearing a blue/green gown which looks like a houpelande and a cap of some sort. Does any of this sound familiar to anyone? (Drea?) I would really like to find out which manuscript this is, and whether there are more pictures of it somewhere. I checked the Fitzwilliam Museum website, no luck. I sent an email query to them, but no response yet. Thanks for any help! --Jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 17:38:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04811 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:38:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19489; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:48:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA08017 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:44:02 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07989 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:43:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem90.barney.pol.co.uk ([195.92.7.90] helo=herimats) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 11755f-0003Oq-00; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:43:56 +0100 Message-ID: <003b01bed3ca$87872c70$5a075cc3@herimats> From: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" To: , , , Subject: H-COST: Tewkesbury Re-enactment again? Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:42:31 +0100 Organization: Heritage Matters at Words to the Wise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave;editors(Heritage Matters)" I have, at last finished uploading the photographs on http://www.soft.net.uk/wysewords/tewkesbu.htm Galleries One thru Eight; In response to various requests I have included pics that show armour and clothing (incl female) details. please feel free to contact me for further details etc Dave LD MUNDY Editor Heritage Matters _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 17:52:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA05106 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:52:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21072; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:02:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA10524 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:56:12 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10518 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 16:56:10 -0600 (MDT) From: BarbMVD@aol.com Received: from BarbMVD@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6NKIa01154 (7983) for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:54:03 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Civil War Simplicity Patterns To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: BarbMVD@aol.com I<< How authentic are these patterns produced by Simplicity? >> There is no accuracy in these modern, commercial patterns - at the time of our Bicentennial in 1976 they were the only source for many reenactors and celebrants. The seams are all in the wrong places, there are darts where none should ever exist, even the silhouettes were off. They still haunt us - - I titled a slide program on clothing for rev war reenactors "Is There Life After Simplicity?" Barbara Delorey List Manager: `18cWoman@onelist.com DAR/Reenactors: http://hometown.aol.com/barbmvd/page/dar.htm Battle Road Clothing: http://www.ziplink.net/~mrkmcc/delory.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 19:13:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA06634 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:13:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA29143; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:24:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA22656 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:16:48 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from hpamgaac.compuserve.com (ah-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.217.157]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22196; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:12:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpamgaac.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id UAA01030; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:11:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:10:37 -0400 From: Margaret Bolger Subject: H-COST: Summer Sale Begins! To: all Cc: all , all , all Message-ID: <199907212011_MC2-7DE0-B2E9@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id SAA22200 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: RO -Poster: Margaret Bolger Just to let you know that I have just up-dated my web site with a few new items, mostly 1960s vintage clothing and a gorgeous Edwardian blouse! But more importantly with MANY price reductions across the whole site, in my Summer Sale! The Sale ends 31st August. If any of you are coming to my Antique Costume & Textiles Fair at Sandown Park on Sunday 25th July be sure to stop and say hello! Margaret antique costume & textiles http://www.artizania.co.uk _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 19:35:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA07289 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:35:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03170; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:39:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA25122 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:35:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dgs.dgsys.com (robin@dgs.dgsys.com [204.97.64.1]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA25114 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:35:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by dgs.dgsys.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA12827 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:35:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: dgs.dgsys.com: robin owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:35:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Robin Netherton To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Mystery Flemish Book of Hours? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Robin Netherton On Wed, 21 Jul 1999, Jessica Wilbur wrote: > I ran across some note cards that someone gave me a few years ago. They > are really cool, but the blurb on the back only says "Book of Hours, > Flemish, c. 1500." They are from the Fitzwilliam Museum Cambridge. ... > The last picture is a dining scene. The woman is wearing a red gown with > a black kirtle, and you can see a small strip of something white at the > neck under the kirtle, probably her smock. She is wearing a beguine > headdress. The man is wearing a long blue gown, with gold at the neck, > hem and cuffs. He is wearing a black French bonnet type hat and black > shoes. There is a man crouched down by the fireplace, wearing a > blue/green gown which looks like a houpelande and a cap of some sort. I have a card with the last image, sent to me a few years ago from a friend in Cambridge. In addition to the written description you cite, it's labeled MS 1058-1975. But it sounds like your image is cut off -- on mine, off to the left, is a servant bringing a pie to the table, and he's in a knee-length grey gown such as you described for the minstrels, with slit sleeves, a shirt with a gathered square neckline, red hose, black square-toed shoes, and a pale green undergown visible at the sleeves. I wish I had the other scenes you describe, too! I would guess there are many more in the book. --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 19:40:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA07418 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:40:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03932; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:47:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA26346 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:45:36 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26341 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:45:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.109 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:45:01 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: Civil War Simplicity Patterns Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:18:50 -0400 Message-ID: <000001bed3dc$99104a00$6d0bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-reply-to: <78305097.24c77aba@aol.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" A Civil War General's garments would have been of the very finest tailoring, requiring skills and techniques well outside the capabilities of the home sewer. I suspect that's why Simplicity recommends "poplin and broadcloth," because these are fabrics which the home sewer can handle. And the pattern has been drafted for poplin and broadcloth too, which would not be the same garment at all. If you are serious about recreating the General's costume authentically, I believe this book by a list member is just what you need: CIVIL WAR GENTLEMEN: 1860's Apparel Arts & Uniform by R.L. Shep, 1994 Broad coverage in this volume includes military and civilian dress, men's and boys' coats, vests, pants, shirts and important accessories, and features a complete period tailoring system in "Salisbury's System of Actual Measurement and Drafting" (1865). Also, photos of soldiers, additional illustrations of clothing, excerpts from the Army uniform regulations for 1861 and a section on the 7th Regiments New York National Guard. Agnes Gawne, reviewer for Somewhere In Time newsletter says: "....wonderful resource for Civil War reenactors, fashion designers, historians and theatrical costumers." 288 pp, 8 1/2 X 11, quality paperbound. $24.95 It's available from http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks/HTML/booklist.htm. There are some additional resources for men's and women garments of this and other periods on this page, showing you how to use actual pattern drafting systems of the day so you can take the pattern directly from the body. I personally haven't used any of these sytems yet, but several list members reported wonderful and lightening-fast results using the Edwardian pattern drafting system for women in one of Fran Grimble's books. If the Salisbury Drafting System in Shep's book is anything like the drafting system in Fran Grimble's book (which I do own and love), the book will contain the special measuring devices to cut out or trace, as well as the directions for drafting each costume to fit the wearer. I haven't seen Shep's book, but am familiar enough with the literature to think this is as close as it gets to authenticity. I would welcome comments from others who know this era / Salisbury Drafting System well. Hope H. Dunlap > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Ltondreau@aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 1999 3:34 PM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Cc: Ltondreau@aol.com > Subject: H-COST: Civil War Simplicity Patterns > > > > -Poster: Ltondreau@aol.com > > I would like to construct a Civil War military > outfit..perhaps a general's > garment. > > How authentic are these patterns produced by Simplicity? > What reference > books are suggested to view the designs of these garments? > Where can I > purchase truly authentic patterns of military attire? And > what about the > actual fabric, buttons, braiding, etc. used during this > period? Where are > the sources for these items? > > Simplicity says: suggested fabrics: broadcloth and poplin. > Are these > fabrics of a certain weight? Is this what was used during the > Civil War? > > I would like to create this outfit to represent the most accurately > correctdesign possible...........Much thanks to this matter! > > Luecella M. Tondreau > Designer, Patternmaker, Seamstress > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 19:40:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA07516 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:40:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03913; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:47:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA25989 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:43:02 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from ewey.excite.com (ewey-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.191]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA25966 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:42:56 -0600 (MDT) From: tylerweiss@excite.com Received: from flash.excite.com ([199.172.152.79]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990722004224.WMLO18570.ewey@flash.excite.com> for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:42:24 -0700 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Re: Source for printed voile, lawn or organdy? Message-Id: <932604142.29363.66@excite.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:42:22 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 198.151.12.16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: tylerweiss@excite.com Jenie, I too would like to suggest you check the Victoria Louise web site. They have a lare sellection of sheer cottons many with white on white and woven in colors My friend tells me they stock much more than what is shown on the site so it is best to call. While their prices are not the same as Joannes, neither is their quality. I always try to remember the old adage "You get what you pay for". One suggestion try to avoid the cheaper sari cottons. While they are sheer and light they don't hold up. I ordered some once from a different vendor at a very reasonable or so I thought price and it raveled and shifted horribly. This is one time I wish I had paid more. She who dies with the most patterns wins Tyler Weiss -Poster: Jennie Chancey I am having the hardest time finding white on white voile (or other sheer materials). I used to be able to get the striped and floral voile at JoAnne Fabrics, but they don't cary it anymore. I have been looking all over the web, but I have had no luck. Does anyone have a source (US or foreign) for white on white voile, lawn or organdy? Thanks in advance, Jennie _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 19:42:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA07569 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:42:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04080; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:50:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA26404 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:45:58 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu10.smtp.email.msn.com [207.46.181.60]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26393 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 18:45:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.109 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 17:45:21 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: Simplicity Italian Ren Pattern - HELP! Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:50:55 -0400 Message-ID: <000101bed3dc$a6304640$6d0bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-reply-to: <3796147E.30F4DF6C@earthlink.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Is this the dress on the left? http://www.simplicity.com/854/8735.htm Very pretty! It appears to have a strip of fabric tied cross-her-heart fashion, which undoubtedly covers a multitude of sins and helps hold it up. I would either cut the straight edges of the V-neckline on the straight of the goods (putting the center front on the bias), or stay the neckline with a bandof thin (silk or silk like ) selvedge material. Line it and bone it even better! I like to cut linings an facings at 45 degrees from the straight of the goods on the fashion fabric--the two layers stabilize each other completely. Regarding the fit, you might put in those neckline darts to fit her, and then experiment with laying the resulting fabric down as flat as you can on another piece of fabric and cutting. The result might be almost what you need. Rotating the darts to the side seam or armhole seam is an option--when the fabric is flat, slash where you want the new dart. Then close up the dart at the neckline and watch the slash spread. Where the slash spread becomes the new dart, and you can safely abandon the old ones at the neckline. I don't think Italian Ren dresses had darts, but this may result in a look that is to her taste. This shows a period closure method, see the back of the little girls' dress in the front of the painting. http://ps.theatre.tulane.edu/Period.Styles/Costumes/images/E lizabethan.Women/CM29.jpg Fitting one of these from scratch is pretty trivial, really. The bodice front and back are all one piece, no kidding. Cut a hole in the middle of a rectangle of fabric for the head, letting some fabric hang down the breast, some down the back. Center front and center back will be on the straight of the goods. Flatten the rear piece across the small of her back and pin or tape smooth. Wrap the sides of the fabric hanging down her chest towards the back, over the back piece. Smooth it all over her figure and pin or tape in place. Please, no darts! Mark or snip your desired neckline and armscythes. Then starting from a point about 1/2 way down the rear armscythes, use a ruler to draw two diagonal lines from the armscythes to her waist, to points *about* 6-8" apart on the center back waist. If you plan the angles right, the edge of the front will be cut along the straight of the goods, while the edge of the back will be cut on the bias, or at least off grain. (It doesn't have to be exact.) Cut through *both* layers of fabric along those two diagonal lines. Throw away the scraps, an observe that one piece of fabric still forms the bodice. Stay the edges, and cut another identical piece, but this time at 45 degrees out of lining. (You should add a third sturdy (or strong silk) layer of fabric on top of these two (not between), either in the whole bodice to smooth and support the bust, or at least about 2" wide along the four diagonal edges at the back to reinforce the future lacing holes. With right sides together, sew it all together with 1/4 seam around the edges leaving either the front waist or the back waist seam unsewn. Grade seams, clip off curners, turn inside out, poke out corners and press. Voila, a lined bodice. Put eyelets or sew tiny rings down each of the diagonal edges at the back and lace. Guaranteed to fit every time. You can do this in paper or muslin first too and use that as your pattern or lining. If you do this, you can always add a smidgen all around to make the seam allowances the more standard 1/2 or 5/8 inch if you want. Try it on a doll first to learn, if that helps you. The off the shoulder look may require you to put your fashion fabric on the bias, which will leave the finish side of the straps on the straight of the goods and eliminate any chance of pucker. But if it's well lined, it may not matter. Many evening gowns have a string between the gown and its lining right along the whole neckline edge. It is left sticking out somewhere, perhaps a loop inside center front so that the wearer can snug the gown down to her bosom and back for a precise fit. Done correctly, the fabric is only eased, with no visible wrinkles, but you can take out a few inches of gape this way, and it saves a lot of fitting headeaches. I don't quite know how this string stays in place precisely at the edge, but perhaps someone out there can help. Good luck! Hope H. Dunlap > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Scott Hulett > Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 1999 2:42 PM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: H-COST: Simplicity Italian Ren Pattern - HELP! > > > > -Poster: Scott Hulett > > Teddy, > I'm raking through my memory for a conversation I had > with a Caiden > Laurel about just this cutting problem. Does the pattern ask > you to cut with > the neck hole on the straight or the bias? Dredge, dig, > shuffle. It seems to > me she said to cut the v-portion of the neck on the bias. My > 18th c cote > pattern says the same. Maybe a mock up made on the bias would > help? Cheers, > jd > > teddy1 wrote: > > > -Poster: teddy1 > > > > Hello H-costumers, > > > > I'm kind of stuck! A friend (who had intendedto avoid > "Medieval" for > > her wedding as "everyone's" done that recently in our > circle) fell in > > love with the Simplicity Italian Ren pattern (the one that > looks like it > > was put out to link with the release of "Ever After") She wants the > > v-neck, just-off-the-shoulder, view A version. > > > > Anyhow, she turned up last night for a 3 day visit so I could start > > her dress and I made up a mock-up of the bodice to fit on her. It > > fits fine everywhere except the front neckline - which > gapes horribly. > > > > I've tried taking the excess out of the centre front and > the shoulder > > seams and that doesn't work at all - the rest of it won't > sit right then > > - the only place I could get rid of the excess fabric seems to be by > > pinning two big darts, one either side of the bust, > tapering off into > > the armhole or just below. > > > > I thought I could cut new front pieces taking this into account but, > > when laid flat, the patern-piece now looks like an *on* the shoulder > > bodice with a distorted V neck and the armhole isn't the same > > shape either. > > > > Has anyone on the list used this pattern yet? Did you have these > > problems? Is it something simple that I'm just missing or > too brain- > > fried to see? > > > > I'm going to experiment some more tonight with various > > calico/muslin mock-ups but it's not the straight forward job we > > envisioned and I don't want the bride-to-be ending up dishartened > > by this and going away worried that her dress won't work (she's > > already had to bring the wedding forward a year due to her father's > > worsening health...) > > > > If anyone had any tips or ideas, I'd be really grateful > > > > Teddy > > (juat a seam-width short of panic!) > > > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 21:49:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA09792 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:49:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA16543; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:02:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA14115 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:54:16 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mx20.rmci.net (saturn.rmci.net [205.162.184.38]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA14104 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:54:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 19297 invoked from network); 22 Jul 1999 02:50:40 -0000 Received: from pag-di46.rica.net (HELO rica.net) (209.211.110.46) by mx20.rmci.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 1999 02:50:40 -0000 Message-ID: <379663A6.82200031@rica.net> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:19:51 -0400 From: Jennie Chancey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Someone selling "Titanic" boarding suit References: <2.2.32.19990614055726.0082e380@mail.widomaker.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Jennie Chancey A friend of mine is moving and will be selling a custom-made "Titanic" boarding suit (done by the seamstress in Germany with "That Sinking Feeling"). I told her I'd pass the word along, in case anyone knows of a gal who wants the boarding suit and is around a size 12. There are photos of the suit on my site at http://www.sensibility.com/titanic/showandtell. Interested people can reach Errin at efrancis@wsu.edu. Cheers, Jennie -- Sense and Sensibility http://www.sensibility.com winsome clothing with an old-fashioned appeal _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 22:13:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA10393 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:13:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18702; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:23:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA17660 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:18:56 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17652 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:18:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from test (ip220-30.cc.interlog.com [207.34.220.30]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA28256 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:17:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990721230107.009d3cd0@mail.interlog.com> X-Sender: dnunn@mail.interlog.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:01:07 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Danielle Nunn Subject: Sumptuary laws (was Re: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question) In-Reply-To: <199907211753.KAA15390@eclipse.pacifier.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Danielle Nunn Greetings, Kat wrote: >Many of the sumptuary laws were issues of quality control, such as >the restrictions against using Logwood dyed fabrics in Elizabethan >England. O.k. I'm curious, where did you find information on that?! I don't remember running across that one before. Please share! Cheers, Danielle _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 21 23:46:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA12348 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:46:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA25795; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:55:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA28824 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:47:43 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail.inil.com (inil.com [206.31.32.8]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28816 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:47:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [209.176.240.78] by mail.inil.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 177-57935U7500L650S0V35) with ESMTP id com; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:47:38 -0500 X-Sender: baddorf@pop3.inil.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:47:08 +0100 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Deb Baddorf Subject: Re: H-COST: stays Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Deb Baddorf >-Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com > >In a message dated 7/20/99 12:15:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >baddorf@inil.com writes: > ><< At the very least -- it is quite possible to > do without any dressform. >> > >How DO you fit yourself????? Someone else must get the hem as, if you bend to >pin it, the position of the skirt changes. How do you fit the back "on >yourself?" Another person must do the fitting [per your directions] don't >they? Then you're sorta back to "They're never around." No, I've never had anybody around (I'm single) so I just do 3-4 test fittings in muslin. That pretty well covers the back of the bodice. The skirt -- I either eyeball the amount needed to turn up, or hold a yardstick and look in the mirror and say "ok -- 5" hem in the front, 1" at the sides cause these stupid panniers make it go up so far. Then I pin that amount of hem in (about 8-12 pins per skirt; not a very complete pinning, by any means). And try it on again. That's always been enough to suffice. Even for modern length skirts. Then again -- I never analyze my hemlines after I've sewn them. But nobody else has ever noticed them, or complained to me. I dunno -- it just works for me! >Besides....I look >stupid in a dress! I'm a man. Well, ok! But if you are sewing dresses, then you don't go by my "I only sew for myself rule". Else you'd only be sewing trousers & jackets! ;-) Or cotehardies. Deb Deb Baddorf http://www.inil.com/users/baddorf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 00:25:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA13001 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 00:25:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA28735; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:37:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA03752 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:28:48 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03731 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 1999 23:28:45 -0600 (MDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6TRZa27989 (3862) for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 01:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6f57265.24c805c7@aol.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 01:27:35 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: stays To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 7/22/99 12:57:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, baddorf@inil.com writes: << I dunno -- it just works for me! >> Cool. I'm impressed. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 03:26:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA16254 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 03:26:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA08762; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 02:39:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA19632 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 02:31:17 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [195.194.177.11]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA19627 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 02:31:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from csv6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA21082.; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:36:11 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-Message_Server by csv6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:30:17 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:29:47 +0100 From: "KATE M BUNTING" To: Subject: H-COST: Broadcloth, was Civil War Simplicity patterns Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id CAA19628 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "KATE M BUNTING" I'm curious as to why broadcloth was referred to as an inauthentic fabric for American Civil War uniforms. I've seen the term used to describe men's coats of the 17th - 19th centuries and understood it to be a quality woollen cloth. Does the word have a different meaning in the States? Kate Bunting, Library, University of Derby (UK) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 05:00:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA17707 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 05:00:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA12168; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 04:06:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA11713 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 03:57:17 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.6.11]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA11706 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 03:57:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) id <01JDV2FWGZPS00ANYQ@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:02:57 BST Received: from mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk (mdx-ref1.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.57.8]) by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) with ESMTP id <01JDV2FMA7SY00B23K@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:59:40 +0100 (BST) Received: from MDX-REF1/SpoolDir by mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk (Mercury 1.44); Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:53:50 +1100 Received: from SpoolDir by MDX-REF1 (Mercury 1.44); Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:53:20 +1100 Received: from bg_lib_07475 (158.94.53.126) by mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk (Mercury 1.44); Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:53:18 +1100 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:53:18 +0000 (GMT) From: teddy1 Subject: H-COST: Simplicity Renaissance Pattern - Panic over! In-reply-to: <199907220046.SAA26414@net.indra.com> To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Message-id: <94AD05C1234@mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk> Organization: Middlesex University MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: teddy1 Many, many thanks to those of you who responded! I really *was* brain fried and worrying over very little! I ended up, putting the darts into the mock-up, using that as a pattern to cut a new bodice front (which looked *horribly distorted in the neckline and armhole shapes) and making it up to try on the bride. It fitted perfectly and looked absolutely fine once she was wearing it, and needed no further alteration. I have the gown cut out in gold brocade, and I have the dark green slik for the underskirt and neck-infill with me today so I can cut out those pieces in my lunch break. By bedtime, we should have the dress mostly together and can start the hand finishing and decoration (we have to cover a "Juliet" cap with the gold brocade too so another friend can bead it - not period we know, but for the wedding it's the perfect look). > Is this the dress on the left? > http://www.simplicity.com/854/8735.htm Very pretty! It > appears to have a strip of fabric tied cross-her-heart > fashion, which undoubtedly covers a multitude of sins and > helps hold it up. It is that dress, and the bodice front is cut as one piece the "fabric- strip" is the neck edge trim, following the V, and the "waist" trim, following the inverted v at the centre front. We're using strips of the gold brocade (turned wrong-sideout for contrast) as the wider trim around the neck and a gold metalic braid as the narrower trim (expensive, but the bride's parents seem to think it's not nearly as much as they were expecting to pay for a wedding dress) We may not use it around the "waist" seam anyway, as neither of us are sure that works, for us, but we'll certainly be using it on either side of the overskirt opening. Next I have to work on what the groom will wear. His hyper- conservative parents are the thorn in the foot of this project and he really does want to come out of this with them still talking to him - the wedding's going to be enough of a shock to them as it is. His parents don't know *any* of his friends and certainly won't approve of him hanging around with weirdos like me.... Since they're going to hate me anyway, I wonder if I can convince him to wear a doublet or jerkin in matching brocade - and blame me as "Wedding Consultant".... It's no skin off my nose and it may get him off the hook. Thanks again for the responses. They were *much* appreciated! Teddy (feeling much better about the whole thing now it's back on track) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 07:33:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA20185 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 07:33:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA19857; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 06:49:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA26129 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 06:46:23 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from hpdmgaaa.compuserve.com (dh-img-1.compuserve.com [149.174.206.131]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA26121 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 06:46:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpdmgaaa.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id IAA21141 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:45:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:45:17 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: Peninsular war book on eBay To: LIST historic costume Message-ID: <199907220845_MC2-7DEE-4949@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id GAA26124 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson Military Dress of the Peninsular War by Martin Windrow With 100 colour paintings ever type of uniform, including irregulars & female auxiliaries are shown in great detail in the period 1808-1814 British, Spanish and allied soldiers are all here as living portrayals rather that static costume manakins. The chronological text offers concise details of the progress of the War. Major battles are here in detail with maps, over 80 photos and contemporary engravings. Giving much information of life in the Napoleonic period. HB VG/VG http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=135335222 Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 07:58:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA20524 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 07:58:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA21925; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 07:14:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA29062 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 07:11:50 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29056 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 07:11:48 -0600 (MDT) From: trekona@erols.com Received: from erols.com (207-172-132-155.s155.tnt5.col.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.132.155]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA05180 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:11:46 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: H-COST: Civil War Simplicity Patterns Date: Fri, 23 Jul 99 01:21:15 GMT Message-ID: References: <000001bed3dc$99104a00$6d0bfdd0@sharp-9070-> X-Mailer: Quarterdeck Message Center [2.00] Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: trekona@erols.com > -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > > A Civil War General's garments would have been of the very > finest tailoring, requiring skills and techniques well > outside the capabilities of the home sewer. I suspect > that's why Simplicity recommends "poplin and broadcloth," > because these are fabrics which the home sewer can handle. > And the pattern has been drafted for poplin and broadcloth Not only that, but the pattern also calls for elastic in the top of the pants! I laughed myself silly on that one, and it's not even my period. -Judy Mitchell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 08:04:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA20674 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:04:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22320; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 07:19:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA29824 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 07:17:28 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from vi-b1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de (ns0.ipcore.viaginterkom.de [195.182.96.29] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29816 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 07:17:26 -0600 (MDT) From: cemsophie@planet-interkom.de Received: from acor (u-135.essen.ipdial.viaginterkom.de [62.180.17.135]) by vi-b1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA14297 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:15:04 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199907221315.PAA14297@vi-b1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de> To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:19:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: H-COST: 18th c. apron Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: cemsophie@planet-interkom.de Dear members, For an upcoming event (it's in Fulda, Germany) I've made a 1740's sack dress- I would like to wear it 'english-styled' That means with an apron, neckerchief and a little cap, maybe even a bergere. How do you fix the apron though? do you tie it in the back which wouldn't look very good, would it, because one would tie down the pleats in the back then. Or does one make a small one and just bind under the sack so that it is covering the petticoat only? If you know any pictures where this can be seen or have solved that problem yourself please let me know. sophie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 08:48:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA21356 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:48:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA28639; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:03:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA06670 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:00:41 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06659 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:00:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.217.210.79] (ell223.acadia.net [205.217.210.79]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA02850 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:00:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: pulliam@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:01:36 -0500 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Subject: H-COST: white wedding gowns Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> White became a fashionable color (for any gown) in the 1840s, which is probably why Queen Victoria chose it for her wedding gown (she was very intersted in fashion, and very careful about what she wore). That in turn spawn a trend in white wedding dresses. It didn't become *the* wedding gown color until about the turn of the century, or even a little later, though, because it wasn't until then that most women could afford a wedding gown that would not be worn again and again. Deborah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 08:57:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA21514 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:57:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA00246; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:12:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA08426 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:10:28 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from pony.cleanweb.net (cw40.cleanweb.net [208.145.1.150]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA08415 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:10:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 4235 invoked from network); 22 Jul 1999 16:11:18 -0000 Received: from ws27.tpcgi.com (HELO tpcgi.com) (208.135.251.61) by cw40.cleanweb.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 1999 16:11:18 -0000 Message-ID: <37972767.C64AEDDE@tpcgi.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:32:18 -0500 From: Paula Hanna X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Simplicity Renaissance Pattern - Panic over! References: <94AD05C1234@mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Paula Hanna I would love to see a picture of this dress when you are done with it. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 10:04:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA22630 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:04:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA11445; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:19:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA21846 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:16:22 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from eclipse.pacifier.com (eclipse.pacifier.com [199.2.117.78]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21828 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:16:16 -0600 (MDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com Received: from grendal2 (ip13.van20.pacifier.com [216.65.138.13]) by eclipse.pacifier.com (8.9.3/8.9.3pop) with SMTP id IAA28697 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907221516.IAA28697@eclipse.pacifier.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:19:02 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Sumptuary laws (was Re: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question) Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.19990721230107.009d3cd0@mail.interlog.com> References: <199907211753.KAA15390@eclipse.pacifier.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: kat@grendal.rain.com > >Many of the sumptuary laws were issues of quality control, such as > >the restrictions against using Logwood dyed fabrics in Elizabethan > >England. > O.k. I'm curious, where did you find information on that?! I don't > remember running across that one before. Please share! There is a mention of it in Linthicum's book but I've seen quotes from the statutes in other places as well (I just can't remember exactly where, but probably in books on guilds, dyeing, legal matters, etc. I've got quite an eclectic collection.) It came about because the English were trying to do logwood dyeing the way they would other types of dyeing (and at the moment I can't remember whether they were doing it like a reduction dye or as a pot dye with mordant.) It was a fugitive dye done that way, as well as rotting the fabrics. On the continent they had figured out safe ways that would give a colorfast dye in glorious blacks and blues. The English didn't think it was possible so they "outlawed" it. Kat Kat(June Russell) kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 10:07:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA22663 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:07:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12145; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:22:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA22615 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:20:02 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22598 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:19:59 -0600 (MDT) From: BarbMVD@aol.com Received: from BarbMVD@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6SVZa24009 (532) for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:18:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9c0d3d13.24c89059@aol.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:18:49 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: 18th c. apron To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: BarbMVD@aol.com cemsophie@planet-interkom.de writes: << I've made a 1740's sack dress- I would like to wear it 'english-styled' That means with an apron, neckerchief and a little cap, maybe even a bergere. How do you fix the apron though? do you tie it in the back . . .>> Put on your petticoat, then your apron, then your sacque-back gown over it. Or if you want an outer spread of apron, you put the apron on last, then put your apron strings through the pocket slits and tie in back or if your strings are long enough, cross them in back (under your gown and bring them around and tie in front. I prefer the first method. Barbara Delorey List Manager: `18cWoman@onelist.com DAR/Reenactors: http://hometown.aol.com/barbmvd/page/dar.htm Battle Road Clothing: http://www.ziplink.net/~mrkmcc/delory.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 10:09:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA22674 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:09:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12695; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:24:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23253 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:22:31 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23237 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:22:28 -0600 (MDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6PMRa24213 (4258) for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:21:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:21:48 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Broadcloth, was Civil War Simplicity patterns To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 7/22/99 4:40:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk writes: << Does the word have a different meaning in the States? >> Generally in the States it refers to a medium to medium heavy weight plain cotton....kinda like poplin actually. If the pattern had suggested "wool broadcloth"....... Actually I always thought broadcloth was call that because it was "broad" [duh!], or wider than usual...like wools are. Why we link it with 45" wide cotton I'll never know. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 10:21:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA22963 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:21:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14231; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:36:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA25466 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:33:23 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25452 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:33:20 -0600 (MDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6EVCa25591 (4258) for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:31:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <7a7353a0.24c8936d@aol.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:31:57 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: 18th c. apron To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AlbertCat@aol.com In a message dated 7/22/99 9:18:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cemsophie@planet-interkom.de writes: << r does one make a small one and just bind under the sack so that it is covering the petticoat only? If you know any pictures where this can be seen or have solved that problem yourself please let me know. >> There's a picture in "Revolution in Fashion" of a very elegant pannier gown with a lacy fine apron spread out over it. I don't have it in front of me but I think it passes under the CF point and is spread over the expanse of the front skirt. In Gainsboro's portrait of Mary Countess Howe, her diaphanous apron passes under the point and hangs over petticoat and gown. I think these decorative aprons had no strings but were pinned or basted in place. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 10:48:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23341 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:48:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18394; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:03:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01743 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:59:12 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01688; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:59:09 -0600 (MDT) From: seamstrix@juno.com Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id EF533F6E; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:57:51 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com Cc: h-costume-digest@indra.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:44:24 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: white wedding gowns Message-ID: <19990722.105359.-286635.0.seamstrix@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 6-7 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com This is pure speculation on my part, but could some of the impetus for white wedding gowns have been that young women of society frequently married after their first season 'out' and since many of the gowns worn for their 'coming out' (boy, have the connotations of *that* phrase changed!) were white and were their finest dresses and as such would very likely be the one chosen to wear for the wedding, it became expected that wedding dresses would be white? Karen ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 10:51:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23478 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:51:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18970; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:06:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02745 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:02:24 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02719 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:02:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14368 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <379740F1.A4E24D92@serv.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:04:01 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Broadcloth, was Civil War Simplicity patterns References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover > I'm curious as to why broadcloth was referred to as an inauthentic fabric for American Civil War uniforms. I've seen the term used to describe men's coats of the 17th - 19th centuries and understood it to be a quality woollen cloth. Does the word have a different meaning in the States? Good point. Yes, here in the States, when the term broadcloth is used it typically refers to a stiff (IMHO) cotton and/or cotton/poly blend. Very *not* appropriate for these uniforms. My Webster's Dictionary says: Broadcloth 1. a densely textured woolen cloth with a lustrous finish and a plain or twill weave. 2. a closely woven cotton, silk, or synthetic fabric with a narrow crosswise rib. At least in the fabric stores here in my neck of the woods (Seattle, WA), broad cloth is the definition #2 and always cotton or cotton/poly. You can get wool broadcloth but it will be called *wool* broadcloth. Not simply broadcloth. Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 13:48:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA26424 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:48:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18983; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:01:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA13796 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:59:15 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp1-alterdial.uu.net (smtp1-alterdial.uu.net [192.48.96.19]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13788 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:59:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jwilbur1 by smtp1-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: 119.pcpool89.corp.us.uu.net [153.39.89.119]) id QQgyzr16123 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:59:08 GMT Message-Id: From: "Jessica Wilbur" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:58:57 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: Mystery Flemish Book of Hours? Priority: normal References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > > -Poster: Robin Netherton > > > On Wed, 21 Jul 1999, Jessica Wilbur wrote: > > > I ran across some note cards that someone gave me a few years ago. They > > are really cool, but the blurb on the back only says "Book of Hours, > > Flemish, c. 1500." They are from the Fitzwilliam Museum Cambridge. > ... > > The last picture is a dining scene. The woman is wearing a red gown with > > a black kirtle, and you can see a small strip of something white at the > > neck under the kirtle, probably her smock. She is wearing a beguine > > headdress. The man is wearing a long blue gown, with gold at the neck, > > hem and cuffs. He is wearing a black French bonnet type hat and black > > shoes. There is a man crouched down by the fireplace, wearing a > > blue/green gown which looks like a houpelande and a cap of some sort. > > I have a card with the last image, sent to me a few years ago from a > friend in Cambridge. In addition to the written description you cite, it's > labeled MS 1058-1975. Ah! That is definitely not on the cards I have. That may be very helpful. Thank you! > But it sounds like your image is cut off -- on mine, > off to the left, is a servant bringing a pie to the table, and he's in a > knee-length grey gown such as you described for the minstrels, with slit > sleeves, a shirt with a gathered square neckline, red hose, black > square-toed shoes, and a pale green undergown visible at the sleeves. Nope, he's not in the picture I have. This just makes me want to find a book on this ms. all the more! (What else am I missing?) > > I wish I had the other scenes you describe, too! I would guess there are > many more in the book. > > --Robin If I can find a book on it, I'll share with the list whatever info it has. Hopefully sometime soon my housemate will hook up his scanner and I'll be able to scan in the other cards so everyone can see them. Thanks for your help! Even just having the ms. number will help. --Jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 14:20:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27067 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:20:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23556; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:34:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA21266 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:32:09 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: (from eliz@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA21251; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:32:07 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:32:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199907221932.NAA21251@net.indra.com> From: Robin Netherton To: Historic Costume List Subject: H-COST: Use of linen in Italy and elsewhere Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Robin Netherton I tried posting this late Sunday night, but it hasn't come through -- probably too long. I'm trying again. I apologize if two copies end up on the list. -------------------- On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 Nancygwyn@aol.com wrote: > In Henk's posting of July 17th he included from someone named Robin the > following quote > > > I've found some indications that linen was worn routinely for summer > > garments in sunny Italy, > > Robin (or Henk), I'd be very interested in hearing more about your research, > sources, etc. Please elaborate more on this comment, either to the list or > privately. Yes, that deserves followup, and I'll follow up Henk's post as well. Please bear with me as I provide a little context for my remarks. We know that linen and wool were the most common fibers used for European medieval clothing -- I think that's a given. Silk was used, but not as widely, and cotton probably even less so (on cotton, see some postings on this a couple of months ago, I think). It's also commonly said -- in books, by people on this list, etc. -- that wool gowns were worn in winter (and probably in spring and fall) while linen gowns were worn in summer. By "gowns," I mean the primary body garment(s) worn over the shift/smock/shirt/chemise. (I think we can assume the default fabric for the shift/smock/shirt/chemise was linen, with occasional use of silk in certain times and places. Underwear is not the matter of discussion here.) About a year ago I started wondering, in a desultory fashion, about this "linen for summer gowns" truism. I've seen plenty of references over the years to wool and linen preparation, trade, etc., but that doesn't tell us what it was used for. There's plenty of written material that shows linen was used for tablecloths, bedsheets, towels, veils, sacking, wrapping, and similar items. I also think we're safe in assuming linen was used for linings/interlinings as well as for underwear -- I know that was the case by the 16th century, and I have the vague sense I've seen evidence for it earlier (say, archaeological finds in which wool is preserved and stitching indicates that there was a lining, but the lining fabric has disintegrated -- meaning it was probably linen). But on recollection, while I can remember plenty of mentions of wool for gowns, I can't remember even one reference to linen as the basic, main fabric for a gown -- meaning the visible, colored fabric. Henk did a good job of outlining the primary reasons we might assume linen was used: -- it's cooler, so more suitable for summer -- it was widely available and inexpensive On the other hand, there are enough reasons for me also to want to question the assumption, or at least seek more information. First, although linen is cooler, that may not be enough to justify its use for gowns to be worn in summers where very hot days are fairly rare, as in the northern half of Europe. Most people had a very small number of gowns, many just one or two. If I had only two gowns, I'd want them both to be wearable year-round, even if it means I would be hot for a few weeks out of the year. As for the people who could afford to spend money on a summer gown, they may also have had silk as an option throughout much of this period. Second, I'm not sure just how much cooler linen is compared to the *right* kind of wool. Last summer I found myself going to a three-day outdoor re-enactment in Kansas in July (my first such event in what, 14 years?). Since I had to make camp-suitable clothing for myself, I decided to use the event as an excuse for an experiment. I made three identical dresses: one in linen, one in silk, one in wool. I used a lower-class Italian 16th century design (a sleeveless dress with a square neck, commonly seen worn by kitchen workers in genre paintings) because it was the coolest thing I could find where I wouldn't have to make any concessions in authenticity. I wore the dresses over a long-sleeved linen shift. Temperatures averaged in the 90s and humid, which is not typical of Europe, and could probably not be comfortable in any kind of clothing, medieval or modern. But at any rate, I found that the wool dress -- made of a very fine weave -- was at least as comfortable as the linen dress, and both were more comfortable than the cotton dress. As for laundering, creasing, etc., the cotton held up worst; the wool the best. This was not a scientific experiment by any means, but it did give me a basis of comparison. Third, there's the color question. Linen does not hold dye as well as wool does. We know from paintings as well as written references that strong colors were favored in northern/western Europe, and linen would not be as good as wool at producing those colors. Linen does bleach wonderfully, and for most of its uses -- bed linens, table linens, underclothes, veiling -- it was certainly bleached. For sacking, it was probably used undyed and unbleached. So, was it dyed at all, and if so, under what circumstances? I haven't gone to the point yet of looking through sources on period dyeing (guild records, household manuals, import/export records, linen preparation regulations, etc.), but that would be a good place to find out how common dyed linen was. If there's no indication that linen was routinely dyed, that would be another hint that maybe it wasn't used for gowns. If anyone here has more familiarity with sources on dyeing, I'd live to know if you have any information on this. The realization that linen does typically dye or fade to pastels made me wonder about Italian painting. The overall palette of the Italian renaissance is paler than that of Northern Europe. Henk noted the important point that frescoes are paler by nature, but I discounted frescoes when I considered this; even in panel paintings, illuminations, and other art, there's a much greater representation of pale pinks, pale blues, pale yellows and oranges, etc. in people's clothing. There's no shortage of brighter colors elsewhere in the paintings. The paler colors also appear in art from the rest of Europe, but not so much in clothing, except maybe in angels' draperies. Again, this just an impression, and I could well find that my impression is wrong. Before I could take a solid stand on this, I would have to do a more formal analysis, comparing the color use in a few hundred paintings from various countries and centuries. And even if the impression holds up, that doesn't mean we're looking at a difference between linens and wools (or silks) -- it could be a difference in painting materials, taste, whatever. So, I won't call that evidence -- but it does occur to me that if linen were commonly used for gowns anywhere, it would be in Italy, where summers are hotter and longer. Which brings me to the only bit of evidence I *have* found for linen being used for clothing, at least since I started watching for these references. This is the Italian reference I mentioned earlier, but it might not technically be Italian at all. It's from the Tacuinum Sanitatus, sometimes called the Medieval Health Handbook (and published in a nice art book by that name, also in another art book called The Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti). This manual lists maybe a hundred different influences -- foods, weather conditions, emotions, etc. -- and describes their health effects. The manuscripts are in Latin and the existing manuscripts are from Italy, but the original text was apparently Arabic, and it may have its origin or connections in Southern Spain. There's an entry for wool clothing (vestis lanea), one for silk clothing (vestis de sete), and one for linen clothing (vestis linea). Not all extant manuscripts have all the same combinations of entries. The translations I have differ slightly from one of my sources to the other, which may reflect a different source manuscript that translated the Arabic into Latin differently, or it may be just a different English translation of the same source manuscript. Here are the translations I have. Version (1) is from "The Medieval Health Handbook," by Luisa Cogliati Arano; version (2) is from "The Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti," trans. by Judith Spencer. (1) Wool clothing. Nature: Warm and dry. Optimum: The thin kind from Flanders. Usefulness: It protects the body from cold and holds warmth. Dangers: It causes skin irritation. Neutralization of the Dangers: With thin linen clothing. (2) Woolen clothes. Clothes are suited to _praeparatio aeri_, or the adaptation of the climate to life, which is one of the seven things essential to good health. Clothes made of wool, whose nature is warm and dry, are beneficial in the winter to old people, life in Northern regions, cold constitutions, all things that, of the four elements, correspond to water. These clothes, especially those in fine Flemish wool which are to be preferred, draw the inner heat from the body and keep it warm. The advantage of wool can also be a disadvantage: as too much warmth is harmful, wear a thin linen garment under the wool. (2) Silk clothes. Silk clothing is very luxurious and grand. It is highly valued and equally highly priced and for this reason it cannot be worn by peasants, but only by noble men and women and esteemed and prominent citizens. _In medicina_, according to medical science, everything that was said about woolen clothes applies equally to silk ones, for the nature of silk, like that of wool, is hot and dry. Wool, however, is said to be better than silk for covering the head at night. (1) Linen clothing. Nature: Cold and dry in the second degree. Optimum: The light, splendid, beautiful kind. Usefulness: It moderates the heat of the body. Dangers: It presses down on the skin and blocks transpiration. Neutralization of the Dangers: By mixing it with silk. Effects: It dries up ulcerations. It is primarily good for hot temperaments, for the young, in Summer, and in the Southern regions. (2) Linen clothes. Linen clothes are very suitable for the summer: they are light, splendid, and attactive. The women will see to the making of them, working rapidly and wisely with scissors and needle. Linen clothes are useful in keeping the body at a moderate temperature and they help to dry out ulcers, but they press on the skin and prevent the exhalation of vapors. For this reason it is wiser to make clothes from cloth that has a mixture of linen and silk, which also looks dazzlingly elegant. So, that last bit might serve as some supporting evidence that linen was used for gowns, not just underwear, in Southern European summers. But it's not definitive. Interestingly, the illumination in the edition I have here, which was taken from a Northern Italian manuscript of the Tacuinum, shows seamstresses at work cutting plain white linen from a bolt, and sewing plain white linen. The shapes of the pieces are not recognizable as any particular kind of clothing, just yardage. By contrast, the page on wool in one manuscript shows a male tailor fitting a man's red gown, and his assistant is working on a greyish-blue gown, while a green gown lies on a table. In the wool illustration in another Tacuinum manuscript from the same region, the scene is much the same, but shows bolts as well as finished garments, of red and blue, again being sewn and fitted by men to men. So there's always the chance that while the Arabic text referred to use of linen gowns, the Northern Italian illuminator may have known linen only in its bleached form, which may have been sewn (by women) into underwear rather than tailored (by men) into gowns. It's impossible to tell for sure, from this little sliver of information, but there's also not enough here to definitively support the idea of dyed linen for gowns. The silk workshop scene is similar to the wool ones, with a male tailor and assistant and a row of hanging garments, but their colors are red, blue, pink, and white with a pattern (quilted? hard to tell), and the customer is female, wearing pink. So, some of those pinks in paintings may represent silks. (Some of these pictures have shown up over the years in the Medieval Woman series of calendars and daybooks.) Some other notes. Henk quotes me as saying: > > -- we know it was used for undergarments (chemises) and linings of body > > garments, but I haven't found as much evidence for it being used as the > > main fabric, despite common assumptions to the contrary. So I'm on the > > prowl. > > > You say: as much. Does that mean you have found some? No primary evidence at all for anything north of Italy, though I haven't been looking in all the right places to find such references. I do see this idea repeated in secondary sources, which is evidence of a sort, if we can hope that this common belief is grounded in fact, somewhere back along the line. But not enough for me to be comfortable relying on it. A lot of my work is based on questioning assumptions. Often, if I look, I find that there is indeed good reason for an assumption. But sometimes, I find that there's no solid evidence at all. I don't have my mind made up on the linen question, but there's enough to make me wonder -- so now I'm keeping my eyes open for references. If I were addressing this head-on, there are places I would look -- guild records, trade records, household manuals, wills, inventories, letters, etc. But this isn't a primary research topic for me right now, so I'm not taking the time to address it directly. Maybe someday I will (or maybe someone else will). In the meantime, though, it's another topic I'm collecting information on. I do want to stress that I don't have my mind made up on this, and I DON'T want to find myself asked to defend the statement that "linen wasn't used for gowns." I can't make that statement now, and it would take years of work before I could feel sure either way. But I'd be greatly appreciative if people would send me any primary references they might come across that do support the use of linen as the primary fabric in body garments in any particular time/place in medieval Europe. --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 14:27:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27170 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:27:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24691; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:41:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA22669 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:39:03 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: (from eliz@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA22657; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:39:02 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:39:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199907221939.NAA22657@net.indra.com> To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: Leslie Helms Subject: H-COST: Dress Forms Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Leslie Helms Margo, normally I would recommend the Wolf form hands down. Unless you find some alternative that will work better for the historic patterns, I think you are best off with the Wolf because of its outstanding durability and stability. Don't try to use a fabric-store type form. You need one that is an industry-standard size. There is one other brand that is nearly as good; perhaps someone else can remember the name. My suggestion, based partly on the discussions we've seen in this list, is that you'd do well to get a size no larger than 12 to use as your standard base. The forms and standard measurements for the larger sizes are generally less realistic. I think you can do better than that. Get some larger-sized women to let you do some measuring and draping on them, and look for the commonalities. Maybe you'll be the first company to do body-proportioned sizes... like a size 16 "apple" and a size 22 "pear"! Dreaming of the day when everyone can afford the laser-fit technique, and we can move on to funner stuff, Leslie _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 15:31:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA28315 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:31:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05593; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:45:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA07106 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:42:57 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from vortex.engr.washington.edu (vortex.engr.washington.edu [128.95.19.1]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07097 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:42:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from serv.net (hearn.loew.washington.edu [128.95.202.218]) by vortex.engr.washington.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA20491 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <379782B1.43E25C2E@serv.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:44:34 -0700 From: Merouda the True of Bornover X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Use of linen in Italy and elsewhere References: <199907221932.NAA21251@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Merouda the True of Bornover Wow, thanks! Great job of research. One clarification.... > I made three identical dresses: > one in linen, one in silk, one in wool. [SNIP] > I found that the wool dress -- made of a very fine weave -- was at > least as comfortable as the linen dress, and both were more comfortable > than the cotton dress. As for laundering, creasing, etc., the cotton held > up worst; the wool the best. So was the third dress silk or cotton? I got confused here. Thanks, Cynthia -- Cynthia Long Merouda the True of Bornover Barony of Madrone Kingdom of An Tir _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 16:32:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA29374 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:31:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16067; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:46:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA21395 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:43:51 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: (from eliz@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA21367; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:43:50 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:43:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199907222143.PAA21367@net.indra.com> From: Scott Hulett To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Use of linen in Italy and elsewhere Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Scott Hulett Robin, Once again, invaluable! A few questions, but first the set up. I costume for a Renaissance Dance group recreating Northern Italian Dance from 1580-1600. The group is located and performs in Southern California. Based on your writing, for summer gowns silk is the most appropriate as we are all well to do. The summers here are very hot and dry and even practicing in costume is dangerous unless precautions are taken. I'm interested in Janet Arnold's listing of one 'white cotton calico' gown, quite late, 1590 or so. She states cotton was quite dear, coming as it does from India, hence the name. Is it out of the question to make cotton gowns? My feeling is not really, I'm just trying to get an idea/reaction from researchers/costumers so I have something to say to support my use of more comfortable fabrics. Part of our performance is to have one woman and one man put on their clothes in front of the audience to give a better idea of what makes the outline and restriction to dancing. I want to come to this with some good background to answer the inevitable question of 'is it period?' I am using a range of fabric content, silk, linen and such so I'm not locked in. I'm also adding some early posts about cotton trade in Northern Italy to my research goals to have some idea how useful/used it was. You have addressed some of this, and I do like your ad hock wool/linen/cotton experiment. Thanks for any reply, cheers, joan _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 17:15:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA30077 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:15:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21895; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:30:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00622 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:27:10 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00556 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:27:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costume (207-172-159-137.s137.tnt7.rcm.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.159.137]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA27525 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:27:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00c301bed491$17e850c0$899faccf@costume> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: white wedding gowns Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:25:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" White was pretty much an established color for wedding gowns by 1894. Check out this article in the Ladies Home Journal http://www.costumegallery.com/LHJ/March_1894/Bride/p17Intro.htm While doing my internship Valentine Museum's costume collection, I worked a great deal of the time in the bridal section. They house the largest collection of bridal gowns in the U.S. I recall the earliest white bridal gown was 1800-1810ish. Jennie Chancey on this list took a picture of the gown when it was on exhibit. Maybe she can post the picture on the web. Prior to the 19th century I do not recall any white wedding dresses in the collection. Once you get to the 1840s gowns you see many white dresses and do not see many wedding dress of color until the 1940s (WW2). So we basically went 100 years in white wedding dresses. In the 1940s, colored gowns was a short lived trend. After the 1940s you mainly see white/candlelight gowns. Once in awhile you will see a dress in color, but it is rare. Candlelight colored gowns float back and forth throughout the 200 year span. What is really interesting is to see the design trends in these fashion periods. We did a small exhibit of some of the wedding gowns from 1860-1912. You can see them at the bottom of this webpage, http://www.costumegallery.com/dresser.htm Later...Penny The Costume Gallery Visit our new 19th Century Bookstore at: http://www.costumegallery.com/Book/1800.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 17:26:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA30259 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:26:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23145; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:41:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA03089 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:38:54 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from zeus.directcon.net (zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03079 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:38:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r9p40.directcon.net [206.170.184.139]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA21647 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:38:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:38:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907222238.PAA21647@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: H-COST: white wedding gowns Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson At 06:25 PM 7/22/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Penny Ladnier" > >White was pretty much an established color for wedding gowns by 1894. Check >out this article in the Ladies Home Journal After the 1940s you mainly see >white/candlelight gowns. Once in awhile you will see a dress in color, but >it is rare. Actually, during the 1980's there was a huge fad for pink wedding gowns, usually glitzy ones covered with ruffles. At the store I worked with, we called those dresses "circus poodles". Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 17:38:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA30439 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:38:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24024; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:48:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA04572 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:46:14 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp1-alterdial.uu.net (smtp1-alterdial.uu.net [192.48.96.19]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04563 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:46:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jwilbur1 by smtp1-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: 119.pcpool89.corp.us.uu.net [153.39.89.119]) id QQgzah20309 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:46:08 GMT Message-Id: From: "Jessica Wilbur" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:45:57 -0400 Subject: H-COST: 15th century ponderings Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" Hello everyone, It's me again with more weird questions. I was perusing an online index of period art, and came across a couple of unusual things. First: http://ps.theatre.tulane.edu/Period.Styles/Costumes/images/Late.Gothic/CH14.JPG Is it just me, or does it look like the woman in the middle has only one underdress sleeve? It looks like the sleeve on her right arm (partially obscured by the other woman's hand and cloth) is blue and relatively tight. It looks like just the smock/shift/chemise sleeve is showing on her left arm. Am I just wacky, or does it look that way to anyone else? Can someone explain what the deal is? Second: http://ps.theatre.tulane.edu/Period.Styles/Costumes/images/Late.Gothic/CH17.JPG In this one, the woman on the right is wearing a diagonally striped gown. Is this another case of artist's imagination, or is this a plausible outfit? Would the stripes have been woven in vertically and the gown cut on the bias? (On an unrelated note, I really like the mantle that the woman on the left is wearing. Great hat, too.) I have no specific reason for asking; I'm just curious. =) Thanks! --Jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 18:04:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA30902 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:04:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27562; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:19:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA10652 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:17:17 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10637 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:17:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.176 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:16:43 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: 15th century ponderings Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:24:23 -0400 Message-ID: <000301bed499$6ff0f620$960bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" It was very common for sleeves to be attached with ribbons to the armscythe of the main body garment, here under the cap sleeve. This detail allows decorative sleeves to be changed to suit the mood of the wearer, the dressiness of the event, etc. While it took a tailor to make a good dress, sleeves scould be embroidered and made up separately by the ladies of the house as a form of self-expression. When I was a child I always puzzled over the image of a medieval lady giving her pearl-studded sleeve as a sign of favor to a knight to wear at the peak of his helmet in a tournament. Tearing off part of her dress in public seemed most unladylike, and ruined a good dress as well! Now I understand that the sleeve was easily detached, or she might just have brought an extra sleeve with her from home! Separable oversleeves have been used right up through the twentieth century to wear over regular dress sleeves for protection from dirt and wear for farm work, kitchen wook, tradeshop work, too, pinned or buttoned on. I can't comment on the diagonal stripes on the other painting, and would love to hear someone else's take on it too. Hope H. Dunlap > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Jessica Wilbur > Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 6:46 PM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: 15th century ponderings > > > > -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > > Hello everyone, > > It's me again with more weird questions. I was perusing an > online index of period art, and > came across a couple of unusual things. > > First: > http://ps.theatre.tulane.edu/Period.Styles/Costumes/images/L at > e.Gothic/CH14.JPG > > Is it just me, or does it look like the woman in the middle > has only one underdress sleeve? > It looks like the sleeve on her right arm (partially obscured > by the other woman's hand and > cloth) is blue and relatively tight. It looks like just the > smock/shift/chemise sleeve is > showing on her left arm. Am I just wacky, or does it look > that way to anyone else? Can > someone explain what the deal is? > > Second: > http://ps.theatre.tulane.edu/Period.Styles/Costumes/images/L at e.Gothic/CH17.JPG In this one, the woman on the right is wearing a diagonally striped gown. Is this another case of artist's imagination, or is this a plausible outfit? Would the stripes have been woven in vertically and the gown cut on the bias? (On an unrelated note, I really like the mantle that the woman on the left is wearing. Great hat, too.) I have no specific reason for asking; I'm just curious. =) Thanks! --Jessica ____________________________________________________________ _____ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 18:05:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA30909 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:05:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27599; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:19:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA10694 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:17:28 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from bajor.ici.net ([207.180.0.58]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10675 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:17:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (d-gnaps-117.ici.net [207.180.12.124]) by bajor.ici.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA04503 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:15:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907222315.TAA04503@bajor.ici.net> Subject: Re: H-COST: 15th century ponderings Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:16:43 -0400 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Irene leNoir To: "H-Costume" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id RAA10683 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Irene leNoir Jessica Wilbur wrote: >Is it just me, or does it look like the woman in the middle >has only one underdress sleeve? It looks like the sleeve >on her right arm (partially obscured by the other woman's >hand and cloth) is blue and relatively tight. It looks like >just the smock/shift/chemise sleeve is showing on her left >arm. Am I just wacky, or does it look that way to anyone >else? The blue sleeve is a pinned-on oversleeve. If you look carefully, you can see a slight peak to the top edge of the blue where it is pinned. You can also see the same pulling effect on the lady on the right, who wears green oversleeves pinned to a pink gown. The lady in the center is only wearing one of her oversleeves because she has removed the other so that she doesn't get it wet while she tests the water. (While you can't see the pins in this painting, I have seen others where the pin is very clear.) >the woman on the right is wearing a diagonally striped gown. >Is this another case of artist's imagination, or is this a >plausible outfit? Would the stripes have been woven in >vertically and the gown cut on the bias? While I suppose it is possible that such an outfit might actually have been worn, I highly doubt it. I think it is more likely that the gown is a fantastical or allegorical creation. Do you know the title of the artwork or what scene it is supposed to represent? That might give a clue. Jessica Clark SCA: Irène leNoir irene@ici.net http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 18:15:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA31070 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:15:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29719; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:30:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA05304 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:49:27 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05270 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:49:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-71-147.irvn11.pacbell.net [206.170.71.147]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23442 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37973E15.11A9F90@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 15:51:52 +0000 From: Dietmar Organization: Completely Disorganized X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04C-PBI-NC404 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Broadcloth, was Civil War Simplicity patterns References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Dietmar Greetings all, Kate asked: >> Does the word have a different meaning in the States? Albert replied: > Generally in the States it refers to a medium to medium heavy > weight plain cotton...kinda like poplin actually. If the pattern > had suggested "wool broadcloth"... Well, the dictionary says that broadcloth is: 1) a twill napped woolen or worsted fabric with smooth lustrous face and dense texture 2) a fabric usually of cotton, silk, or rayon made in plain and rib weaves with soft semigloss finish. So, the uniform fabric ought to be def. 1) Unfortunately, most stores in the states only carry def. 2), and it is becoming ever more difficult to find 'broadcloth' that is even 50% cotton. Most of the stuff is cheap flimsy 50/50 or 60/40 (or worse) poly-cotton. Being allergic to synthetics, I don't even bother looking at the stuff anymore. Poplin is "a strong fabric in plain weave with crosswise ribs", so there is a difference in the type of weave. (Plain woven vs. twill woven.) Regards, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 18:39:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA31421 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:39:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA02525; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:55:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA17188 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:52:12 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from bajor.ici.net (bajor.ici.net [207.180.0.58]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17161 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 17:52:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (d-gnaps-117.ici.net [207.180.12.124]) by bajor.ici.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA05520 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907222351.TAA05520@bajor.ici.net> Subject: H-COST: Samples and Sources Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:52:05 -0400 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Irene leNoir To: "H-Costume" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id RAA17165 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Irene leNoir Hello Everyone, Over the past month or so, I've been gathering samples for a class I'm going to be teaching at Pennsic - "Understanding Fabric" I've actually managed to surprise myself with the ridiculous variety of samples that I've managed to collect. However, there are still some samples that I would like to have that I haven't yet been able to find/acquire. Some are obscure textiles that I can't find in my local stores, some are expensive items that I can't justify buying just so that I have a sample, and some are items that I just don't know where to buy. So, the thought occurred to me to ask you folks for help. Following is a list of the samples that I still need. (If you don't know what something is, please ask.) If you have any scraps/leftovers or sources for of any of them that you'd be willing to part with/share, please email me privately. (I am aware that you probably won't be able to get anything to me in time for Pennsic. Still, I don't plan for that to be the only time I teach the class. Anything that you are able to share with me would help me to increase my collection for future classes.) Any and all help is greatly appreciated. Raw Materials: alpaca/llama shearing angora rabbit shearing/plucked fibers angora goat shearing wool shearing cotton boll hemp stem flax stem ramie plant/stem silkworm cocoon Fibers: combed/carded alpaca/llama combed/carded angora rabbit combed/carded angora goat combed/carded wool combed/carded cotton unspun hemp unspun linen unspun ramie unspun silk acetate fiber acrylic fiber lyocell fiber nylon fiber olefin fiber polyester fiber rayon fiber spandex fiber (or whatever it is in its raw state) Fabrics - I would need a square approximately 12"x12" diamond twill wool satin sateen leno weave double weave wool felt sprang macrame crocheted lace knit lace tatted lace barkcloth complex or multi-colored batik silk flannel any sandwashed fabric any stonewashed fabric devore velvet beaded or sequined fabric (sewn or glued) flocked velvet on fabric base flocked velvet on plastic base chenille (old meaning) or tufted fabric any fabric made from/with alpaca/llama any fabric made from/with angora rabbit any fabric made from/with angora goat any fabric made from/with hemp any fabric made from/with lyocell any fabric made from/with olefin any fabric made from/with ramie birds eye check boucle cashmere chamois crinoline crushed velvet dobby dupioni madras matelasse oilcloth organdy panne velour pima cotton polished cotton pongee rajah raw silk (real raw silk - not silk noil) serge sharkskin tussah tweed ultrasuede Jessica Clark SCA: Irène leNoir irene@ici.net http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 20:35:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00648 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:35:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13667; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:49:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA02574 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:46:02 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp0.mindspring.com (smtp0.mindspring.com [207.69.200.30]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02567 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:45:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion (user-2ivegi5.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.66.69]) by smtp0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA15476 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:45:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <008201bed4ad$118aeaa0$8a49f7a5@pavilion> From: "Megan McHugh" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Samples and Sources Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:45:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Megan McHugh" I can't really help you, but boy would I like to take this class. When are you teaching it at Pennsic? -----Original Message----- From: Irene leNoir To: H-Costume Date: Thursday, July 22, 1999 7:53 PM Subject: H-COST: Samples and Sources > >-Poster: Irene leNoir > >Hello Everyone, > >Over the past month or so, I've been gathering samples for a class I'm >going to be teaching at Pennsic - "Understanding Fabric" > >I've actually managed to surprise myself with the ridiculous variety of >samples that I've managed to collect. However, there are still some >samples that I would like to have that I haven't yet been able to >find/acquire. Some are obscure textiles that I can't find in my local >stores, some are expensive items that I can't justify buying just so that >I have a sample, and some are items that I just don't know where to buy. > >So, the thought occurred to me to ask you folks for help. Following is a >list of the samples that I still need. (If you don't know what something >is, please ask.) If you have any scraps/leftovers or sources for of any >of them that you'd be willing to part with/share, please email me >privately. (I am aware that you probably won't be able to get anything >to me in time for Pennsic. Still, I don't plan for that to be the only >time I teach the class. Anything that you are able to share with me >would help me to increase my collection for future classes.) > >Any and all help is greatly appreciated. > >Raw Materials: > alpaca/llama shearing > angora rabbit shearing/plucked fibers > angora goat shearing > wool shearing > cotton boll > hemp stem > flax stem > ramie plant/stem > silkworm cocoon >Fibers: > combed/carded alpaca/llama > combed/carded angora rabbit > combed/carded angora goat > combed/carded wool > combed/carded cotton > unspun hemp > unspun linen > unspun ramie > unspun silk > acetate fiber > acrylic fiber > lyocell fiber > nylon fiber > olefin fiber > polyester fiber > rayon fiber > spandex fiber (or whatever it is in its raw state) > >Fabrics - I would need a square approximately 12"x12" > diamond twill > wool satin > sateen > leno weave > double weave > wool felt > sprang > macrame > crocheted lace > knit lace > tatted lace > barkcloth > complex or multi-colored batik > silk flannel > any sandwashed fabric > any stonewashed fabric > devore velvet > beaded or sequined fabric (sewn or glued) > flocked velvet on fabric base > flocked velvet on plastic base > chenille (old meaning) or tufted fabric > any fabric made from/with alpaca/llama > any fabric made from/with angora rabbit > any fabric made from/with angora goat > any fabric made from/with hemp > any fabric made from/with lyocell > any fabric made from/with olefin > any fabric made from/with ramie > birds eye check > boucle > cashmere > chamois > crinoline > crushed velvet > dobby > dupioni > madras > matelasse > oilcloth > organdy > panne velour > pima cotton > polished cotton > pongee > rajah > raw silk (real raw silk - not silk noil) > serge > sharkskin > tussah > tweed > ultrasuede > >Jessica Clark >SCA: Irène leNoir >irene@ici.net >http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 22 20:42:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00808 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:42:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA14500; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:57:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA03682 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:55:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dgs.dgsys.com (robin@dgs.dgsys.com [204.97.64.1]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03673 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:55:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by dgs.dgsys.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA21931 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:55:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: dgs.dgsys.com: robin owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:55:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Robin Netherton To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Use of linen in Italy and elsewhere In-Reply-To: <379782B1.43E25C2E@serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Robin Netherton On Thu, 22 Jul 1999, Merouda the True of Bornover wrote: > > I made three identical dresses: > > one in linen, one in silk, one in wool. [SNIP] > > > I found that the wool dress -- made of a very fine weave -- was at > > least as comfortable as the linen dress, and both were more comfortable > > than the cotton dress. As for laundering, creasing, etc., the cotton held > > up worst; the wool the best. > > So was the third dress silk or cotton? I got confused here. Ouch. Sorry -- that must have been a Freudian slip. I had originally intended to make a silk one, but ran out of time. The dresses were linen, cotton, and wool. I had made the cotton dress first to test my construction method for the style, because cotton was the cheapest fabric I had handy and I had loads of it, so could afford to make mistakes. Then I started in on the other fabrics, but only managed to finish the linen and wool versions. I only had three days for my testing anyway, so I wore the cotton dress one day. (And at least that proved to me why cotton is really NOT the most desirable fabric, either in comfort or care.) I still hope to make up that silk someday and try it all again, but I don't often have the excuse to spend three days in costume in the sun. --Robin _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 03:18:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA07425 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 03:18:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA13640; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 02:31:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA24756 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:38:35 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA24749 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:38:32 -0600 (MDT) From: RobesOf@aol.com Received: from RobesOf@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6YKVa24206 (14456) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 00:37:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6369a72d.24c94b99@aol.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 00:37:45 EDT Subject: H-COST: Burnout velvet To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com Would the lady interested in receiving the burn-out velvet article, please email me again? I accidentally deleted your message and need your email address. I believe the I am looking for someone by the name of Rachel. Sorry about that. Erica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 03:18:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA07429 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 03:18:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA13671; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 02:31:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA20867 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:08:21 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20859 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:08:19 -0600 (MDT) From: RobesOf@aol.com Received: from RobesOf@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6MSUa21216 (14456) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 00:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9c106f33.24c94477@aol.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 00:07:19 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Dress Forms To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com << Maybe you'll be the first company to do body-proportioned sizes... like a size 16 "apple" and a size 22 "pear"! >> Actually, Vogue has a similar idea in their pattern catalog. At the bottom of each pattern page there are 4 different symbols used to describe some body shapes: triangle (larger hips than shoulder width), inverted triangle (larger shoulder width than hips), hourglass (even top and bottom, trim waist) and rectangle (even top and bottom, boxy). I have a good eye when it comes to determining which shapes do well with certain styles. But I am horrible at choosing styles for myself (I am a rectangle). To this day, I still have my mother do my clothes shopping. But these symbols help me choose patterns for myself when she is not around. I think it would be great if all clothing tags, patterns, etc. had these symbols. Obviously there are a few more body shapes to be added, but on average, it could help a lot of people choose more flattering styles. Check it out the next time you're at the fabric store. Erica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 03:24:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA07574 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 03:24:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA13879; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 02:33:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA19094 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:53:46 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19084 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:53:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Tigershado@aol.com Received: from Tigershado@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6JZCa10256 (7823) for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <69daf931.24c940ea@aol.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:52:10 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Pinning hems on yourself To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 15 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Tigershado@aol.com Nancy's Notions sells these, among other interesting gizmos. According to the description it'll mark hems 3"-27" from the floor. Barbara In a message dated 7/20/99 7:14:01 PM Central Daylight Time, kayherb@juno.com writes: > I'm certain that I saw them on the market about three years ago, but I > haven't had a reason to notice them since then. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 03:26:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA07584 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 03:26:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA14028; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 02:34:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA17030 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:41:35 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from aus.compassnet.com.au ([203.26.180.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA17010 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:41:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from glenda-s-pc by aus.compassnet.com.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA28017; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:38:40 +1000 Message-ID: <072301bed4bd$11c84e80$89b41acb@glenda-s-pc> From: "Glenda Robinson" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Use of linen in Italy and elsewhere Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:37:23 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Glenda Robinson" Thanks Robin for sharing your experiment results. I'd just like to add my own experimentation. My 17th century outfit consists of: a fustian shift (linen/cotton); two cotton petticotes and a med. weight wool petticote a pair of bodies (2 layers of linen, 2.5mm square cane, bunched for 'boning') a sleeveless bodice (light wool, linen lined); a pair of linen hose a sleeved bodice (med. weight wool, linen lined, cotton canvas interlined on trunk) I've worn all these on a hottish summer day without major problems (the audience were wearing standard summer clothing). Had to take the sleeved bodice off to dance, though. Wore the same stuff on our winter campaign, where, for the the entire long weekend the wind was practically gale-forced, and the temperature near or below zero celcius, then it rained heavily, sleeted and snowed for the last day. All I needed to add was pair of thick wool hose and a thick wool cape, (which is lined with cotton). My husband's theory is if you're wearing THAT many layers, you've actually created your very own microclimate. Glenda. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 03:28:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA07594 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 03:28:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA13891; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 02:33:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA16895 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:40:49 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA16884 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 21:40:48 -0600 (MDT) From: DzMzLzy@aol.com Received: from DzMzLzy@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6SZPa23851 (4260) for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:38:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <752c33b8.24c93dd0@aol.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:38:56 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Samples and Sources To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: DzMzLzy@aol.com Boy, if that is your "still to get" list you must have quite a collection already! Want to trade notes? I've taught a class on basic textiles as Costume College for the last few years and I just finished revising my notes for the class I'm teaching this weekend: 1890's textiles. Liz Gerds _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 03:30:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA07727 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 03:30:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA14629; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 02:44:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA09021 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:36:44 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.md.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.md.home.com [24.2.2.66]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09008 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:36:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from home.com ([24.3.23.212]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990723023635.BDCF9894.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@home.com> for ; Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:36:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3797D533.83827CAB@home.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 22:36:35 -0400 From: Liz /cozit Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Broadcloth Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Liz /cozit As others have mentioned, Broadcloth in the US generally means the 45" cotton/poly (if you're lucky just cotton) cloth that resembles heavy(ish) calico w/no pattern. Someone mentioned that there was "wool" broadcloth available in the Northwest....probably true, but also probably *not* what the Civil War (and Revolutionary and before) broadcloth would have been. I know someone at the Smithsonian's Museum of American History who joined in the search for "real" woolen broadcloth to make a reproduction uniform for display...a fair number of years ago. She mentioned this fact to us in docent training about 6 years ago, along with the fact that not only had they searched *very* long and hard for the stuff, but that that single factory no longer turned it out (don't remember if she said it had been closed down or just stopped making it). This doesn't mean that you can't buy something fairly similar for re-enactors, just that it's not quite the same (not as thoroughly/thickly fulled, I believe). Just thought I'd mention it. Oh, and if anyone *does* know of a place that still turns the "real" stuff out, please let me know. I'd be happy to pass the info on (though I don't know that they'll need it again real soon...never hurts to know, though). -Elisabeth _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 03:58:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA08063 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 03:58:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA15986; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 03:12:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA18628 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 03:10:12 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.6.11]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA18621 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 03:10:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) id <01JDWEZMW81C00D5WV@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:15:52 BST Received: from mdx-bg-staff2.nw.mdx.ac.uk (mdx-bg-staff2.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.56.3]) by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) with ESMTP id <01JDWEYH1D0K00BVDR@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:09:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from MDX-BG-STAFF2/SpoolDir by mdx-bg-staff2.nw.mdx.ac.uk (Mercury 1.44); Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:03:20 +0000 (GMT0BST) Received: from SpoolDir by MDX-BG-STAFF2 (Mercury 1.44); Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:02:58 +0000 (GMT0BST) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:02:51 +0000 (GMT) From: teddy1 Subject: Re:H-COST: Simplicity Renaissance - Panic over! To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Message-id: <15E409A1C05@mdx-bg-staff2.nw.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.40 (NDS) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: teddy1 > - -Poster: Paula Hanna > > I would love to see a picture of this dress when you are done with > it. It may have to wait until afdter the first weekend in October (the wedding) but I'll certainly do my best to get some good pictures and *see* if I can scan them. The bodice is now made up in the gold brocade, trimmed with an inch and a half wide band of the same brocade "wrong-side-out" around the neck. The gold organza sleeves are cut and ready to sew and the deep bluish-green silk underskirt and bodice infill are ready to go. Now it all goes on hold until after *another* friend's wedding dress is finished (sort of amber coloured damask cotehardie, heavy gold brocade sideless surcote trimmed with honey-coloured - or possibly whilte - fur). Not to mention the groom's blue and gold brocade houpellande with deep-red velvet under layers..... and then I need my own outfit finished for that wedding (8th August). Since it's being televised, we have to have it better than right! *Then* I can get back to the Renaissance one.... Teddy (Too many weddings, too many events and not enough time!!) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 06:41:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA10728 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 06:41:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA23921; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 05:56:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA16692 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 05:53:43 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from hpamgaab.compuserve.com (ah-img-2.compuserve.com [149.174.217.153]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA16686 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 05:53:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hpamgaab.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.5) id HAA13763 for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:53:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:51:43 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: H-COST: White wedding dresses To: "INTERNET:h-costume-digest@indra.com" Message-ID: <199907230752_MC2-7E05-28BB@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id FAA16687 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Melanie Wilson >White was pretty much an established color for wedding gowns by 1894. Check >out this article in the Ladies Home Journal After the 1940s you mainly see >white/candlelight gowns. Once in awhile you will see a dress in color, but >it is rare. my grandma got married in blue in the 1930s England it wasn't that unusual ! Mel _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 07:22:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA11385 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:22:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA26403; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 06:36:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA20368 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 06:34:32 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA20357 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 06:34:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.217.218.117] (ell133.acadia.net [205.217.218.117]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA11159 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:34:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: pulliam@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:35:28 -0500 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Subject: H-COST: sources Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <<>Raw Materials:>> Many of the raw materials and fibers you list (the natural ones, at least) are available from spinning supply shops. Many do mail order, like Earth Guildin Asheville NC, Halcyon Yarn in Bath ME, Straw into Gold in CA, etc. Keep in mind that angora goats produce mohair (and are now generally known as mohair goats.) On a slightly different topic, when you reply to messages, *please* check what you are sending before you send it. Edit the essential point you are replying to. We're getting some of the same (long) messages over and over again, and sometimes complete digests. Deborah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 08:08:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA12082 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:08:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00339; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:22:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA25509 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:19:43 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA25497 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:19:41 -0600 (MDT) From: Gaelscot@aol.com Received: from Gaelscot@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6DHSa24015 (303) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:18:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:18:17 EDT Subject: H-COST: what's def? To: h-costume-digest@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com Okay, I'll bite -- what's def? I can't imagine a Civil War uniform made of what's commonly called broadcloth in the US. Even good broadcloth. I can imagine one made of DENIM, for goodness sake, more than broadcloth! Broadcloth is flimsy. We are in the SCA, and about the only think I'd think of using it for is banners and (in a pinch) linings. But a UNIFORM? It would look like pajamas! Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 08:15:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA12230 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:15:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA01043; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:29:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA26530 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:27:27 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA26509 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:27:25 -0600 (MDT) From: Gaelscot@aol.com Received: from Gaelscot@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6XZSa24222 (303) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:26:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1c77d491.24c9c77e@aol.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:26:22 EDT Subject: H-COST: decorative sleeves To: h-costume-digest@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com Hope, I am wondering about your reply to the 15th-century sleeve question. I have heard this many times but I haven't ever read it. Considering how little time I've had for research in the last five years, that wouldn't be a surprise. Exactly how common was it to embroider or otherwise decorate detachable sleeves? What years? What countries? And how many of these sleeves would a woman have -- one extra pair for dressing up? As many as she could afford? Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 08:17:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA12240 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:17:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA01386; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:31:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA26852 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:29:41 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail1.radix.net (mail1.radix.net [209.48.224.31]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA26839 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:29:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [209.48.224.40]) by mail1.radix.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA22063 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:29:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:29:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Kevin & Mara Riley To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Irish Brigade - 1745 In-Reply-To: <37973E15.11A9F90@pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Kevin & Mara Riley I'm looking for information on what the Irish Brigade (of the French army) would have worn circa 1745. Can anyone point me toward some resources? Thanks, Mara _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 08:32:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA12564 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:32:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA03010; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:47:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA28849 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:44:51 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from pop.idsi.net (root@pop.idsi.net [208.195.228.22]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA28839 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:44:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from chantal (03-ta06wf.idsi.net [208.201.30.137]) by pop.idsi.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id JAA32460 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:44:44 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.19990723094652.00972850@pop.idsi.net> X-Sender: chanty@pop.idsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:48:37 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Chantal Pecourt Subject: H-COST: Wearing Stays Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Chantal Pecourt Hello all I am about ready to make my first purchass of 18th century stays. I am looking at the back lacing with the shoulder strap version. I was wondering, has anyone worn this type or another type of stay? How comfortable or uncomfortable are they? Is Lightly boned better than half-boned? Should they be the appropriate back lacing or should they be front and back lacing? Thanks _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 08:58:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA12946 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:57:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05921; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:12:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02954 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:09:52 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail2.uts.ohio-state.edu (mail2.uts.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.31]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA02946 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:09:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mai040RS1.lib.ohio-state.edu (mai040rs1.lib.ohio-state.edu [128.146.115.31]) by mail2.uts.ohio-state.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id KAA21892 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:09:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990723101328.006de6f4@pop.service.ohio-state.edu> X-Sender: mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:13:28 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: "Marsha J. Hamilton" Subject: Re: H-COST: Naming In-Reply-To: <199907211753.KAA15390@eclipse.pacifier.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Marsha J. Hamilton" >How successful the sumptuary laws were is something we can hotly >debate but can't really know. It has parallels to things like the >contemporary French laws regarding what you are and aren't allowed to >name your children. > >Kat --------------------- Kat, Since it's off topic, can you contact me directly about the restrictions on naming children you refer to in your message above? Thanks. hamilton.8@osu.edu _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 09:21:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13398 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:21:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA09519; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:35:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA06900 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:32:42 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from pony.cleanweb.net (cw40.cleanweb.net [208.145.1.150]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA06885 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:32:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 19436 invoked from network); 23 Jul 1999 16:33:37 -0000 Received: from ws27.tpcgi.com (HELO tpcgi.com) (208.135.251.61) by cw40.cleanweb.net with SMTP; 23 Jul 1999 16:33:37 -0000 Message-ID: <37987E1F.51D43902@tpcgi.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:00:49 -0500 From: Paula Hanna X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Simplicity Renaissance - Panic over! References: <15E409A1C05@mdx-bg-staff2.nw.mdx.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Paula Hanna Oh, I can wait. The colors sound absolutely glorious. I hope it all goes well. Paula _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 09:23:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13408 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:23:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10100; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:38:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA07505 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:35:58 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from pop.idsi.net (root@pop.idsi.net [208.195.228.22]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07488 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:35:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from chantal (03-ta06wf.idsi.net [208.201.30.137]) by pop.idsi.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id KAA03450 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:35:54 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.19990723103832.00973100@pop.idsi.net> X-Sender: chanty@pop.idsi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:39:46 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Chantal Pecourt Subject: Re: H-COST: Naming In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990723101328.006de6f4@pop.service.ohio-state.ed u> References: <199907211753.KAA15390@eclipse.pacifier.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Chantal Pecourt At 10:13 AM 7/23/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Marsha J. Hamilton" > >>How successful the sumptuary laws were is something we can hotly >>debate but can't really know. It has parallels to things like the >>contemporary French laws regarding what you are and aren't allowed to >>name your children. >> >>Kat Until recently, one could only name their child a name that was on a list compiled by the French government. Mostly they were saint names. My parents had to consult this list in naming my sister and myself. I have been told that this law is not as striclty enforced now as it was when I was born Chantal _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 09:46:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13738 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:45:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA12726; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:58:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA11268 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:55:57 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from bsumail.idbsu.edu (bsumail.idbsu.edu [132.178.16.40]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11256 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:55:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cobfac.boisestate.edu (cobfac.boisestate.edu [132.178.51.3]) by bsumail.idbsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA31960 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:57:01 -0600 Message-Id: <199907231457.IAA31960@bsumail.idbsu.edu> Received: from COBFAC/SpoolDir by cobfac.boisestate.edu (Mercury 1.44); 23 Jul 99 08:55:52 -0700 Received: from SpoolDir by COBFAC (Mercury 1.44); 23 Jul 99 08:55:50 -0700 From: "Linda Yordy" Organization: College of Business & Economics To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:53:07 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: decorative sleeves Priority: normal In-reply-to: <1c77d491.24c9c77e@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Linda Yordy" 7F00,0000,0000> Hope, I am wondering about your reply to the 15th-century sleeve question. >. . . Exactly how common was it to embroider or otherwise decorate 7F00,0000,0000> detachable sleeves? What years? What countries? And how many of these sleeves > would a woman have -- . . . I just did some research on Italian Ren for a dress I made a couple of months ago with an embroidered the left sleeve. I embroidered a floral pattern and added fresh water pearls in white and brown. Accoring to Jacqueline Herald's book on Italian Ren, gown sleeves were sometimes ornamented with a design on one sleeve only — usually the left sleeve (Herald, p. 185). These designs were either heraldic in nature or of a fanciful theme. 0100,0100,0100Herald quotes a description of a sleeve from a wardrobe account of 1468 for Bona of Savor. This account lists a mongino sleeve under the heading of “jewelry” worth 18,000 ducats. The sleeve is embroidered with a phoenix in balases, diamonds, and pearls (Herald, p. 185). A similar sleeve with the phoenix motif is found in a polytych (detail of Mary Magdalen) by Carlo Crivelli (Herald, pp. 176-177).0100,0100,0100 She also shows a portrait painted by Alessio Baldovinetti titled "Portrait of a Lady in Yellow" (National Gallery, London) which is probably from the 1470s. The gown which the lady is wearing is rather simple, but displays a large floral design on her left sleeve. Herald states that the design on this lady’s sleeve is heraldic, but unidentified. You can see a picture of the Baldovinetti portrait on the Web Gallery of Art search at http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/search.cgi?author=BALDOVINETTI%2C+ Alessio&time=any&school=any&form=any&type=any&title=&comm ent= I sometimes have trouble getting to the portraits from these long URLS, so if the above address doesn't work, go to http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/search.html Scroll down to the artists listing, select Baldovinetti and hit "search." 0100,0100,0100The book: Herald, Jacqueline. Renaissance Dress in Italy 1400-1500. New Jersey: Humanities Press, 1981. Didn't find any mention as to how many sleeves a lady might own, but thought it was interesting that they catalogued them under "jewelry" rather than clothing. Linda Yordy Phone: 208/426-4034 Boise State University Center for Management Development 1910 University Drive Boise, ID 83725-1660 ******************************************************** Yordy's Law #3: When wearing white, apply your lunch directly to your shirt -- it will end up there anyway. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 10:32:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14553 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:32:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20644; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:43:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA20811 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:40:43 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f86.hotmail.com [207.82.250.192]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA20799 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 09:40:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 99824 invoked by uid 0); 23 Jul 1999 15:40:10 -0000 Message-ID: <19990723154010.99823.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 12.21.110.240 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:40:10 PDT X-Originating-IP: [12.21.110.240] From: "Karie Mitchell" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Use of linen in Italy and elsewhere Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:40:10 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Karie Mitchell" >-Poster: "Glenda Robinson" >I've worn all these on a hottish summer day without major problems >(the audience were wearing standard summer clothing). Glenda, What's a "hottish" summer day? 80? 90? It all depends on where you live. Those temps for me (living in Texas) are a balmy spring day. Temps here range somewhat higher for us in the South. I find few ladies in full Elizabethan during our fierce summer events. Certain styles just don't work in certain climes, unless completely indoors. We have a custom here in Texas of being Greek and Roman during the hottest of our summer months and reverting back to our "usual" styles during the rest of the year. It saves on medical bills and trauma. What I'm trying to say is that I would prefer more accurate measurements of time and temperature. I would hate for anyone (including myself) to make an outfit expecting to withstand a "hottish" summer day and wind up in the infirmary due to heat exhaustion. Sincerely, Karie Mitchell (Allessandre Desiderio) Arlington, Texas (Elfsea, Ansteorra) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 11:06:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA15058 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:06:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25404; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:12:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA27848 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:10:26 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail2.uts.ohio-state.edu (mail2.uts.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.31]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27841 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:10:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mai040RS1.lib.ohio-state.edu (mai040rs1.lib.ohio-state.edu [128.146.115.31]) by mail2.uts.ohio-state.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id MAA16520 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:10:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990723121401.006b71f4@pop.service.ohio-state.edu> X-Sender: mhamilto@pop.service.ohio-state.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:14:01 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: "Marsha J. Hamilton" Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot re-enactors In-Reply-To: <19990723154010.99823.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Marsha J. Hamilton" >What's a "hottish" summer day? 80? 90? It all depends on where you live. - - - - - - - - I just attended the small, but very fun, muster at Salem Village 1630, in Salem Massachusetts. It ranged from 87-93 degrees F and about 60% humidity. Admittedly, in 1630 Salem was a cooler place than it is now. I was not comfortable wearing a shift, corset, linen skirt, apron, and coif. I never did put on my bodice which is wool. It looked inaccurate but dropping dead seemed a little too authentic. I was surprised that some of the others less sensitive to heat were in full woolen garb doing heavy work. Admittedly, they were drenched, looked sick every once in a while and complained but they were functioning in multiple heavy wool layers. We assume some pilgrims froze to death in the winter. Just as they died being weakened from illness, cold, improper diet, etc. I wonder if any of them dropped from the heat as well? _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 11:10:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA15197 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:10:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26849; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:22:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA00118 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:20:41 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00108 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:20:38 -0600 (MDT) From: seamstrix@juno.com Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id EF8PQW22; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:20:07 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com Cc: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:02:39 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Wearing Stays Message-ID: <19990723.111644.-286635.0.seamstrix@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 8-9,19-20 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com I've found that one of the crucial aspects of wearing 16th century stays (not too different from 18th century stays) is the length around the back. I find that if the stays are cut even 1/2 an inch too long, you start to get what we call 'corset bite' which is a painful rubbing/irritation of the skin under the edge of the stays. Especially if you are buying yours ready-made, be sure that you are totally comfortable with their back-length, even a slight twinge when you first try them on can become agony a few hours later and the damage can take weeks to fully heal. Another aspect of wearing stays is that your breathing will probably need to be modified. I'm not saying that you won't be able to breathe, I do very nicely, but it will need to be from your upper chest rather than your diaphragm as the stays will restrict how much movement your stomach will have. Once you get used to the different style of breathing you should not find that you are restricted in your activities. Just watch out for sneezing. People generally don't warn one about it, but sneezing in stays can be really painful as the force of the sneeze in your abdomen gets trapped and bounced back into your body by the stays. It can feel a bit like being punched in the stomach, ouch! Karen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 11:43:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA15767 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:43:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01925; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:56:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA07385 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:54:17 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07371 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:54:15 -0600 (MDT) From: seamstrix@juno.com Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id EF8REZDB; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:49:38 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com Cc: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:43:21 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot re-enactors Message-ID: <19990723.114619.-286635.3.seamstrix@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 17-18 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com Well since we seem to be having a bit of a pissing contest, I'll throw in my two pence. I do an Elizabethan Ren-Faire on the Illinois/Wisconsin border all summer long. We are currently about halfway thru the run. I play a member of Queen Elizabeth's Court and I am typically found wearing more velvet, brocade, and padding than the average couch. We regularly have temps in the 90's with humidity about the same, one Sunday we found after we closed that the heat index had been 123! I have never gone down from the heat. Am I comfortable? Heck NO!!! I am usually sweating like a pig, at the end of the day we like to compare how many layers of our clothing we have sweated thru or how far down from the waistband of our skirts is soaked with sweat. You make your fun where you can. Fans are not a fashion accessory, they are a survival tool. And I am not a fan of hot weather, I like it cool, I'm usually the one in shorts when its 60 and I don't get out my winter coat until it hits freezing. But if you just accept the fact that you are going to be less than ideally comfortable and take some reaasonable precausions (unlike Court who routinely break almost all the recommendations for hot weather survival) it's not that bad. Just drink lots and lots of water! Karen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 12:04:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA16157 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:04:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05879; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:16:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA12153 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:13:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from april.dnaco.net (april.dnaco.net [207.238.206.9]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12112 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:13:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kirk.dnaco.net (aleed@kirk.dnaco.net [207.238.206.3]) by april.dnaco.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA02899 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:13:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (aleed@localhost) by kirk.dnaco.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA22325 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:13:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: kirk.dnaco.net: aleed owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:13:41 -0400 (EDT) From: aleed To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot re-enactors In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990723121401.006b71f4@pop.service.ohio-state.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: aleed When I was doing an internship thing at Plimoth Plantation (set in the 1620s),the re-enactors there said it was not unknown for women to strip down to their petticoat, corset & shift while doing hot work. I never pursued the documentation of that fact, but I consider Plimoth a reliable source. Drea On Fri, 23 Jul 1999, Marsha J. Hamilton wrote: > > -Poster: "Marsha J. Hamilton" > > >What's a "hottish" summer day? 80? 90? It all depends on where you live. > - - - - - - - - > I just attended the small, but very fun, muster at Salem Village 1630, > in Salem Massachusetts. It ranged from 87-93 degrees F and about 60% > humidity. > Admittedly, in 1630 Salem was a cooler place than it is now. > > I was not comfortable wearing a shift, corset, linen skirt, apron, and coif. > I never did put on my bodice which is wool. It looked inaccurate but dropping > dead seemed a little too authentic. > > I was surprised that some of the others less sensitive to heat were in > full woolen garb doing heavy work. Admittedly, they were drenched, looked > sick > every once in a while and complained but they were functioning in multiple > heavy wool layers. > > We assume some pilgrims froze to death in the winter. Just as they > died being weakened from illness, cold, improper diet, etc. I wonder if any > of them > dropped from the heat as well? > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 12:41:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA16784 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:41:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11193; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:49:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA19671 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:47:22 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19657 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:47:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.78 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:46:50 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: decorative sleeves Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:54:31 -0400 Message-ID: <000101bed534$88916c00$4e0bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-Reply-To: <1c77d491.24c9c77e@aol.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: RO -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Detachable sleeves are well-documented for British Isles, Low Countries, and Italy to my knowledge, and I suspect others could document them throughout the rest of Europe. Discussion of detachable sleeves in the Fifteenth Century and how they are embroidered by noble ladies as a form of self expression can be found in: Herald, Jacqueline. *Renaissance Dress In Italy 1400-1500*, from the History of Dress Series, edited by Dr. Aileen Ribeiro. New Jersey: Humanities Press Inc., Atlantic Highlands, NJ 07716, and London: Bell and Hyman, 1981 ISBN 0 391 02362 4 in USA 0 7135 1294 6 in UK, LC 82-5170. By ILL from Allegheny College, The Pelletier Library 393.00945 h412r. Out of print and hard to get even by inter-library loan, but well worth the trouble and the wait. Paintings by the Breugels and other Low Countries artists frequently show the detachable sleeves, held on by ribbons called "points." Paintings available on-line using search engines. I believe the Mayflower American colonists, male and female, had separate sleeves which were attached under the wings of their jackets (wrong word, I know), and that this was a very long lived and practical form of dress. I believe this is covered in Janet Arnold's *Pattern of Fashions 3* which covers the 15th(?), 16th, and early 17th centuries. Detachable sleeves in other time periods are discussed in Janet Arnold's *Patterns of Fashion 1*, p. 48 showing a 1798-1805 gown in the Salisbury Museum and on page 67, shown with two gowns of 1852 to 1860 vintage. I've seen photographs of embroidered sleeves from many centuries ago in historic embroidery books, too. No ready references, but try Digby's book on Elizabethan embroidery and also there may have been a pair in Beck, Thomasina. The Embroiderer's Story, Needlework from the Renaissance to the Present Day, 1995 Devon: UK: David & Charles, Brunel House, Newton Abbott, Devon, ISBN 0 7153 0238 8. Hope I'm not sending you on a wild goose chase with these two books, as I'm working strictly from memory on these--you won't regret having opened them, even if I am mistaken with regard to their containing sleeves. Hope H. Dunlap > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Gaelscot@aol.com > Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 9:26 AM > To: h-costume-digest@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: decorative sleeves > > > > -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com > > > > Hope, I am wondering about your reply to the 15th-century > sleeve question. I > have heard this many times but I haven't ever read it. > Considering how little > time I've had for research in the last five years, that wouldn't be a > surprise. Exactly how common was it to embroider or otherwise > decorate > detachable sleeves? What years? What countries? And how many > of these sleeves > would a woman have -- one extra pair for dressing up? As many > as she could > afford? > > Gail Finke > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 12:43:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA16794 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:43:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10965; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:48:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA19363 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:46:14 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from zeus.directcon.net (zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19357 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:46:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r4p23.directcon.net [206.170.184.72]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA27311 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 10:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907231745.KAA27311@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: H-COST: Copyright question Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson I'm working on my Gold Rush Costume website, and I have a question I think someone on the list might be able to answer. If I use an image, such as a painting or a photograph that was originally made in the 1850's and has since been republished in a book or displayed on a museum website, am I in violation? Are such images protected by copyright if they have been republished? If so, who owns the copyright, the physical owner of the image, such as the museum or lender, or the author of the book? Help! Margo Anderson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 12:45:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA16804 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:45:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12445; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:57:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA21113 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:54:53 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail.sun-spot.com (IDENT:root@mail.sun-spot.com [208.154.174.7]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21088 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:54:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brand (lon47-pm1.sun-spot.com [208.166.155.62]) by mail.sun-spot.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA23691 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:54:39 -0400 Message-ID: <002501bed535$0bc9a560$3e9ba6d0@brand> From: "M. Gregory" To: Subject: H-COST: Late 12th c clothing Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:58:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "M. Gregory" Greetings all, Does anyone know of a good (preferably online) source for basic men's clothing of the 12th century? I'm looking at the Richard I years, and need as much detail as possible, Thank you, M. Gregory =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." -Robert Wilensky, University of California =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 13:21:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA17466 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:21:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18542; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:34:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA28261 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:32:24 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f93.hotmail.com [207.82.250.199]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA28252 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:32:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 11702 invoked by uid 0); 23 Jul 1999 18:31:51 -0000 Message-ID: <19990723183151.11701.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 12.21.110.240 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:31:51 PDT X-Originating-IP: [12.21.110.240] From: "Karie Mitchell" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot re-enactors Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:31:51 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Karie Mitchell" Dear Karen (and members of this list), You mentioned: >Well since we seem to be having a bit of a pissing contest, I'll >throw in >my two pence. I did not mean to get into a "p---"contest. I was just concerned about terminology. Yes I'll admit it is picky, but I find it necessary since we are talking through a world wide list!! >I do an Elizabethan Ren-Faire on the Illinois/Wisconsin >border all summer long. We are currently about halfway thru the run. >I >play a member of Queen Elizabeth's Court and I am typically found >wearing >more velvet, brocade, and padding than the average couch. My goodness! But your costume sounds beautiful! >We regularly have temps in the 90's with humidity about the same, >one >Sunday we found after we closed that the heat index had been >123! I have >never gone down from the heat. You are very lucky! Unfortunately we seem to have people who do not know how to take care of themselves in this weather. I am usually careful but I have had a near miss myself. >Am I comfortable? Heck NO!!! I am usually sweating like a >pig, at the end of the day we like to compare how many layers of our >clothing we have sweated thru or how far down from the waistband of >our >skirts is soaked with sweat. You make your fun where you can. Fun? (Feeling a little squeamish here) But I guess you're right. You have to laugh or else you'd cry and somethings aren't worth crying over (lose salt). I guess I've never encountered people like that here. >Fans are not a fashion accessory, they are a survival tool. You don't have to tell me twice! >And I am not a fan of hot weather, I like it cool, I'm usually the >one in >shorts when its 60 and I don't get out my winter coat until >it hits >freezing. Ditto (more or less), sigh... sometimes I miss snow. >But if you just accept the fact that you are going to be less than >ideally >comfortable and take some reaasonable precausions (unlike >Court who >routinely break almost all the recommendations for hot >weather survival) >it's not that bad. Just drink lots and lots of >water! Yes! Water is very important down here. Thanks for your input and again I apologize for making my opinion seem more "pointed" than intended. >Karen Sincerely yours, Karie (SCA - Allessandre) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 13:21:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA17470 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:21:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18572; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:35:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA28310 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:32:43 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28302 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:32:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.78 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:32:05 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: pattern out of print Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:12:20 -0400 Message-ID: <000201bed53a$da3246a0$4e0bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-Reply-To: <000b01bed22b$effe4e00$59f1fea9@gunsafes> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Amazon Drygoods of Davenport Iowa has the Escape the Revolution dress pictured in their current catalogue, maybe still available at info@amazondrygoods.com 1-319-322-4138 Questions 1-319-322-6800 Business 1-800-798-7979 Orders 1-319-322-4003 Fax They keep things available until their inventory runs out. Hope H. Dunlap -----Original Message----- From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Michelle Sent: Monday, July 19, 1999 5:16 PM To: costume list Subject: H-COST: pattern out of print In the catalog I meantioned earlier, there was a pattern I wanted a copy of. It was put together by a museum out of London (unfortunately, I don't know which one). The pattern, which is actually supposed to be a lot of information, along with a scale model of the dress, is no longer in print. They were calling it the "Escape the Revolution" dress. Circa the French Revolution. A picture of the back side of it is in the catalog. Does anyone have this pattern? I am dying to see what the front looks like and would like to purchase a copy. Michelle _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 13:35:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA17643 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:35:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20469; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:49:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA01222 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:46:43 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01215 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:46:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.78 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:46:11 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: Late 12th c clothing Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:49:27 -0400 Message-ID: <000601bed53c$d2d23c60$4e0bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-Reply-To: <002501bed535$0bc9a560$3e9ba6d0@brand> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Richard Wydmarc or Wymarc has a site devoted to 12th century costume and medieval embroidery which may help, at least with links. Julie Zetterberg has a colossal library of links on her costume website which will also be helpful in getting you started. I. Marc Carlson's "textiles and clothing" and "shoes" websites are extraordinary for this historical period too. Try searching http://www.metacrawler.com with their names or "12th Century Costume," "medieval costume," etc. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of M. Gregory > Sent: Friday, July 23, 1999 1:59 PM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Late 12th c clothing > > > > -Poster: "M. Gregory" > > Greetings all, > > Does anyone know of a good (preferably online) source for basic men's > clothing of the 12th century? I'm looking at the Richard I > years, and need > as much detail as possible, > > Thank you, > > M. Gregory > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =- > =-=-=-=-= > "We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could > produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the > Internet, we know this is not true." > -Robert Wilensky, University of > California > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =- > =-=-=-=-= > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 13:42:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA17810 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:42:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21347; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:55:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA02486 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:53:29 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02479 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:53:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costume (207-172-86-125.s125.tnt6.rcm.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.86.125]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA12899 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00c501bed53c$7727be80$7d56accf@costume> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "h-costume" Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright question Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:52:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" Thanks Margo for asking prior to using. This shows that you are a very responsible individual. If a museum is the owner of an original piece of work, such as a painting, than they are the copyright holder. Where manuscripts are concerned, if you own an original copy or have permission to use from an original owner than you may use it, as long as it's copyright has expired and has not been renewed. One of the things people need to remember is that museum and library collections own the rights of originals. One of the money making venues for museums is in their granting publishing rights. An example, most museums charge for photographs of their collections. IF you want to publish the picture, you will have to pay a surcharge for using the image in that manner. This is one way that American museums are staying in business, since the cut in funding of the arts. What I am doing with my Vintage Publications site is that a private collector is loaning me the manuscripts (magazines) that are out of copyright. Some museums have offered to loan me some of their manuscript collections. Some images have not be seen by the general public but the museums want to help educate the general public. I plan one day to place on the net, the entire Bayeux Tapestry with the costumes of each character named. BUT I will have to obtain permission from the museum that houses the tapestry to do so. If I just placed it out on the web without permission and did not ask, I would be in violation and could be sued by the museum. Being a business, I would be more likely to be sued than a private individual. So there is a protocol that needs to be followed. I can not simply go to one of the books on the tapestry, scan the images, and publish them on the net. I will have to obtain images and publishing rights from the museum . My other option is to set up a photo shoot with the museum, which is not likely to happen. One of the museums that I am working with wants me to enbed codes in all their images that I use. They do not want anyone to take the images without permission. This was a major concern for the musem. I will have to pay for the software to embed the codes and track on the web if someone is using their images without permission. But this was part of the agreement we made. I would suggest that if you have found a picture of a painting in a book, look and see if the museum or private collector is mentioned. Then contact them. If the owner is not mentioned, contact the publisher of the book. Please remember though, many private collectors do not wish to be known. This maybe why they are not mentioned in the publication. But it does not mean that they don't care if you use. A good rule to follow is that if you do not own the image out right, ask for permission. But make sure that you are asking the right person. I'll jump up on my box now... I am very passionate about copyright issues and the web. Many people think they can just place anything out on the web and never ask for permission of use from the original owners. Some people try to stand on that educational use clause in U.S. copyrights. But that educational use clause is very vague and is hard to stand up in court. Museums in America stay in business due in large part to their publishing rights. Many museums are having a very hard time since the budget cut in the funding of the arts. If we take from the museums, they will eventually go under. Then our country will loose a major part of our history. Many museums have cut their staffs drastically since the federal budget cuts. Another way museums make money is from publishing their exhibition catalogs. I have seen so many people placing museum catalog images online without permission. Please ask the museums if you want to borrow an image. Off the box and back to work... Penny The Costume Gallery Visit our new 19th Century Fashion Bookstore at: http://www.costumegallery.com/Book/1800.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 13:42:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA17814 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:42:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21350; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:55:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA02523 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:53:39 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp.email.msn.com ([207.46.181.26]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02513 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:53:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.78 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:52:19 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: H-COST: Gown Colors 1860-1865 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:53:10 -0400 Message-ID: <000701bed53d$ac117860$4e0bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" I haven't seen an answer to this old query. The answer depends on the age of the woman, the time of day, the season of the year, her economic condition, and more, as illuminated in the excerpt from a Georgia girl's diary of the 1864-65 period: "Aug. 25, Friday. - The Ficklens sent us some books of fashion brought by Mr. Boyce from New York. The styles are very pretty, but too expensive for us broken-down Southerners. I intend always to dress as well as my means will allow, but shall attempt nothing in the way of finery so long as I have to sweep floors and make up beds. It is more graceful and more sensible to accept poverty as it comes than to try to hide it under a flimsy covering of false appearances. Nothing is more contemptible than broken-down gentility trying to ape rich vulgarity - not even rich vulgarity trying to ape its betters. For my part, I am prouder of my poverty than I ever was of my former prosperity, when I remember in what a noble cause all was lost. We Southerners are the Faubourg St. Germain of American society, and I feel, with perfect sincerity, that my faded calico dress has a right to look with scorn at the rich toilettes of our plunderers. Notwithstanding all our trouble and wretchedness, I thank Heaven that I was born a Southerner, - that I belong to the noblest race on earth - for this is a heritage that nothing can ever take from me. " The entire book is available with period photographs of people showing their clothes at http://metalab.unc.edu/docsouth/andrews/andrews.html#andr134 , Eliza Frances Andrews, The Wartime Journal of a Georgia Girl, 1864-65, written when she was 24-25 years of age. Fashionable wear, including minute descriptions and hand colored illustrations of the costumes of the day are in Godey's Ladies Book magazines, Leslie's Magazine, and Peterson's Ladies Magazine, a broad sampling of color illustrations from the 1850-1870 time period available on the web at http://www.costumes.org/pages/timelinepages/1850to70a.htm. Well-to-do and middle class women beyond the age of forty tended to wear black silk. Analine dyes made from coat tar derivatives were introduced in about 1860, creating some gastly bright colors such as magenta, turquoise, and orange in color combinations for ball gowns which appear completely tasteless to modern eye. But a wide variety of very tasteful colors were also fashionable too. *Patterns of Fashion 2* by Janet Arnold shows two English gowns from this period on pages 20-23 in great detail, including color, fabric, trim, linings, patterns, and construction methods. Peterson's Ladies Magazine --some patterns and color illustrations for January - December 1859 are on-line at http://home.earthlink.net/~chazengan/vintage/petersons.html. Hope H. Dunlap _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 13:55:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA18007 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:55:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22166; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:01:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA03653 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:59:16 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp5.jps.net (smtp5.jps.net [209.63.224.55]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03635 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:59:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [209.63.189.153] (209-63-189-153.sea.jps.net [209.63.189.153]) by smtp5.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA08462 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 11:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907231859.LAA08462@smtp5.jps.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.0c (197) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:00:08 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright question From: "R.L. Shep" To: h-costume@indra.com Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "R.L. Shep" My *understanding* is that if you get your image from the original - you are OK. If you get it from the place it was republished you are not. This is because an 1850 image is out of copyright, but the reprint is not really. ~!~ R.L.Shep http://www.mcn.org/e/fsbks ---------- >From: Margo Anderson >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: H-COST: Copyright question >Date: Fri, Jul 23, 1999, 10:45 AM > > >-Poster: Margo Anderson > >I'm working on my Gold Rush Costume website, and I have a question I think >someone on the list might be able to answer. If I use an image, such as a >painting or a photograph that was originally made in the 1850's and has >since been republished in a book or displayed on a museum website, am I in >violation? > >Are such images protected by copyright if they have been republished? If >so, who owns the copyright, the physical owner of the image, such as the >museum or lender, or the author of the book? > >Help! > >Margo Anderson > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 14:09:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18232 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:09:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24685; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:23:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA07568 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:21:03 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07560 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:21:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem24.hulk.pol.co.uk ([195.92.6.24] helo=heri) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 117ksM-0003Kh-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:20:59 +0100 Message-ID: <004301bed540$81ee1680$18065cc3@heri> From: "dave editors (Heritage Matters)" To: References: <199907231745.KAA27311@zeus.directcon.net> Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright question Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:56:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave editors (Heritage Matters)" Margo , You should look through your original source and see if they have claimed any copyrights; If they havent you can use anything until they tell you otherwise as you can say that it was public domain; This is especially true if it is an old photograph, which they may have taken from another site anyway. There is no real way of finding out who owns a copyright until somebodys says "hey its mine" If your original source is a book and you are scanning it in :. Then you are on slightly more dodgy ground than downloading from a website. The original copyright on the photograph may have timed out but the book will still be in copyright. That means ok you can use the image if you take it from the original photograph but you have to find it and get your hands on it. I can only be vague if you want me to be more accurate then I will need more details; Dave > > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > I'm working on my Gold Rush Costume website, and I have a question I think > someone on the list might be able to answer. If I use an image, such as a > painting or a photograph that was originally made in the 1850's and has > since been republished in a book or displayed on a museum website, am I in > violation? > > Are such images protected by copyright if they have been republished? If > so, who owns the copyright, the physical owner of the image, such as the > museum or lender, or the author of the book? > > Help! > > Margo Anderson > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 14:10:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18351 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:10:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24901; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:24:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA07777 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:22:38 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from tamago.synopsys.com (tamago.synopsys.com [204.176.20.21]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07769 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:22:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from javelin.synopsys.com (javelin.synopsys.com [146.225.100.38]) by tamago.synopsys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA28390 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from synopsys.com (ca11 [146.225.39.12]) by javelin.synopsys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA13563 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:05:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lmeyer-pc (dhcp-146-225-20-78.synopsys.com [146.225.20.78]) by synopsys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA29271 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990723120823.0097b850@ca11> X-Sender: lmeyer@ca11 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:08:23 -0700 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: Lynn Meyer Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Lynn Meyer >From: "Penny Ladnier" > >Thanks Margo for asking prior to using. This shows that you are a very >responsible individual. > >One of the things people need to remember is that museum and library >collections own the rights of originals. One of the money making venues for >museums is in their granting publishing rights. An example, most museums >charge for photographs of their collections. IF you want to publish the >picture, you will have to pay a surcharge for using the image in that >manner. This is one way that American museums are staying in business, >since the cut in funding of the arts. Since I too try to be responsible, I'm asking for a clarification here. If a museum owns something (e.g. medieval Italian textile), and I myself took a photo of it with my own camera (which the V & A allows without requiring any special permission), I was under the impression that I could in fact put that photo on a website without infringing any copyrights. (Haven't done so yet, just hoping to find time for it, so far...) Is that correct, or incorrect? Thanks! Lynn ---- Lynn Meyer, Mountain View, San Francisco Bay Area, CA (Halima de la Lucha, Crosston, Mists, West) LMeyer@netbox.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 14:37:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18724 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:37:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24370; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:20:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA06961 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:17:58 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from fep4.post.tele.dk (fep4.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.139]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06951 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:17:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from post12.tele.dk ([195.249.161.254]) by fep4.post.tele.dk (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with ESMTP id <19990723191756.OIHM1618.fep4@post12.tele.dk> for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 21:17:56 +0200 Message-ID: <3798BE94.85DEFA32@post12.tele.dk> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 21:12:20 +0200 From: leif drews X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [da] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: wearing stays Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: leif drews Dear Chantal Pecourt. About your questions on wearing stays. I have made some 18th.century stays wich are laced in the back. I have made half boned and fully boned ones. Actually i have tryed one also eaven that i am a man, because i just had to feel how it was like. Actually it is very comfortable i think, it is if your body is being carried by an invisible force. All the bones helps you to get a ridgid upright position and i can imagine that thease stays was a great help for those ladies who participated in court ceremonies and had to stand up for hours. Stays in the 18th. century was made both half boned and fully boned and with lacing in the back and lacing in the front. Some had lacing both in the front and back and some were made with a seperate stomacher to lace over. The ladies i have made stays for have been quite comfortable with them, except some times they have complainted that it is soar under the arms, because the bones is forced up here. This can be avoided by reducing the length of the bones here. Half boned stays is just as good as fullyboned ones, and easyer to make, as the sewing of all the pockets for the bones takes a while to sew. The correct shape is obtained and that is the most important matter. 18th. century stays is not laced as tight as the 19th.century corsets, where the waist was laced to scary inch numbers with damaging of the inner body parts, that is one of the better things to say of it. It is your own desition to make either half boned or fully boned, i have enjoyed to make fully boned stays also, because i think they are very elegant. At my homepage under underpinnings you can se some stays i have made, the one you se there has fully boned front and half boned sides. Happy staysmaking Use the first homepage adress below. My number 1000 visitor came today. Bjarne. -- Leif Drews Åboulevard 5, 3 th 1635 København V Bjarne Drews Åboulevard 5,3.th 1635 København V tlf. 35 37 13 70 Homepage: http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/~DeeDee_Revia/1index.html _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 14:38:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18731 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:38:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28445; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:51:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12820 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:49:19 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12812 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:49:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem120.barney.pol.co.uk ([195.92.7.120] helo=heri) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 117lJi-00045A-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:49:15 +0100 Message-ID: <008101bed544$74d79350$18065cc3@heri> From: "dave editors (Heritage Matters)" To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990723120823.0097b850@ca11> Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright question Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:48:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave editors (Heritage Matters)" ----- Original Message ----- From: Lynn Meyer > Since I too try to be responsible, I'm asking for a clarification here. > If a museum owns something (e.g. medieval Italian textile), and I > myself took a photo of it with my own camera (which the V & A allows > without requiring any special permission), I was under the impression > that I could in fact put that photo on a website without infringing > any copyrights. (Haven't done so yet, just hoping to find time for it, > so far...) Is that correct, or incorrect? > > Thanks! > Lynn > ---- Lynn. Its a very grey area. The V and A let you take photos for your own use. This permission does not necessarily imply permission for commercial use. I think that if your site is non commercial you will be OK; I haven't taken any pics at the VnA for a score years or so , so it might be different for now; but for journalistic photography they used to make special arrangements access time etc ( and on one occasion I was also treated to a meal by two of the staff who had worked overtime on my behalf; this turned into a trail of discovery around various West End drinking establishments, but that is another story) There was no charge but as I was selling the pics I had to get the equivalent of a model release form from them before editors would look at them or at the article for which they were illustrations. I was then good manners for me to send a thank you note to the relevant staff, enclosing copies of both the photographs and the articles concerned. I off course retained the copyright of the photographs throughout; but etiquette would not have allowed me to say anything if they should have used my photographs in any later publications although I would expect to be mentioned. A bottle of scotch at Christmas would have been going a little too far, unless they were really good photos that got into a major brochure. Anyway there is always some small print somewhere; Many people confuse Commercial photography with Journalistic photography any way ( like our English Heritage) and most photographers like to keep the question a bit on the murky side. I think that you should be ok using the pics you took, but dont forget to copright them and also to say where they were taken , perhaps also a small thank you to the VnA and maybe include a link to them . I think you will be on safe enough ground. Hope this helps; Dave _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 14:39:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18738 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:39:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28648; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:52:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA13229 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:50:42 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13208 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:50:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.217.210.117] (ell135.acadia.net [205.217.218.119]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA18509 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:50:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: pulliam@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:51:37 -0500 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Subject: H-COST: copyright issues Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) <> Copyright of the images, *in general* (there are exceptions) are held by the owner of the original. In many cases, that's the museum or collection that owns the photo/painting/print. The author of the book where you saw it asked and was granted permission to publish the image. You need to contact the owner of the image -- check the acknowledgements in the book, it should be listed. <> Yes, most likely you are. Posting something on a website is considered publication, and therefore goes beyond the concept of fair use (that says you can copy something for your own personal use.) Deborah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 14:39:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18742 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:39:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28611; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:52:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA13150 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:50:31 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13139 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:50:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.217.210.117] (ell135.acadia.net [205.217.218.119]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA18451 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:50:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: pulliam@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:51:23 -0500 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Subject: H-COST: heat Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: RO -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) << I wonder if any of them dropped from the heat as well?>> Oddly enough, the first fatality on the 1607 voyage to Jamestown was a man who died on Nevis (one of the islands in the Caribbean, before they got to VA). The contemporary account says he "boiled in his fat", which has been taken to mean he died of heat prostration or dehydration. Deborah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 14:47:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18910 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:47:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00100; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:00:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA14770 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:58:39 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from proxy3.ba.best.com (root@proxy3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.14]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14756 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:58:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from best.com (lavolta.vip.best.com [206.86.95.234]) by proxy3.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.out) with ESMTP id MAA06785 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3798C826.1B1663B0@best.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:53:10 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright question References: <199907231745.KAA27311@zeus.directcon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Lavolta Press Margo Anderson wrote: > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > I'm working on my Gold Rush Costume website, and I have a question I think > someone on the list might be able to answer. If I use an image, such as a > painting or a photograph that was originally made in the 1850's and has > since been republished in a book or displayed on a museum website, am I in > violation? Yes, you may be. The copyright protection for the original image may have expired (for an 1850s photo it certainly has). However, if you are taking an image from a web site or modern book, you are not dealing with the original, but a modern reproduction (photo and/or scan) of it, which is protected by modern copyright laws. If you own the original 1850s daguerrotype, then you can reproduce it without violating copyright. Some museums tightly control the creation and distribution of images of items in their collections. If there is revenue to be had from such images, they want it (and may need it financially). For that matter, it is not legal to borrow copyright-expired magazines from a friend and publish them on your web site, without the friend's permission. You might be able to buy your own copies of the exact same issues somewhere, and it would be perfectly legal for you to publish those. But _these_ copies belong to your friend, not you, and they have the right to control how their own property is used. The control of the use of property in this way is really a separate issue from copyright. > > > Are such images protected by copyright if they have been republished? > If > so, who owns the copyright, the physical owner of the image, such as the > museum or lender, or the author of the book? Publishing an image does not remove its copyright protection. If it is a modern copyright, _someone_ owns it. Copyrights can be transferred in various ways, and publication often involves such transfers. The owner could be the photographer, the museum or lender, the author of the book, or someone else entirely. It all depends on the contractual arrangements they worked out. The usual first step is to contact one likely person/business and ask if he/she is the copyright owner, and if not who to contact for permission. The book publisher or the museum is probably easier to find than an individual author or photographer, but it all depends. Hope this helps, Fran --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 14:47:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18914 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:47:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00293; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:01:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA14941 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:59:20 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14927 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:59:18 -0600 (MDT) From: RobesOf@aol.com Received: from RobesOf@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6NDAa24269 (546) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:53:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <662ca0c5.24ca2244@aol.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:53:40 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright question To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: RO -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com << My *understanding* is that if you get your image from the original - you are OK. If you get it from the place it was republished you are not. This is because an 1850 image is out of copyright, but the reprint is not really. >> This is my understanding as well. I have a book (can't remember the name) and, if my memory serves me right, it says copyrights last for 50 years after the artist/author is dead. As mentioned by another list member, if its the original you are working with you should be under the public domain laws. I'd have to read that book again to be positive. Why don't you ask a lawyer who specializes in copyright law? They should be able to tell you. Erica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 14:52:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19073 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:52:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00992; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:06:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA15806 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:03:33 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from proxy3.ba.best.com (root@proxy3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.14]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15800 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:03:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from best.com (lavolta.vip.best.com [206.86.95.234]) by proxy3.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.out) with ESMTP id NAA08886 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3798CAC6.57079344@best.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:04:22 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright question References: <3.0.5.32.19990723120823.0097b850@ca11> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Lavolta Press Lynn Meyer wrote: > -Poster: Lynn Meyer > > >From: "Penny Ladnier" > > > >Thanks Margo for asking prior to using. This shows that you are a very > >responsible individual. > > > >One of the things people need to remember is that museum and library > >collections own the rights of originals. One of the money making venues for > >museums is in their granting publishing rights. An example, most museums > >charge for photographs of their collections. IF you want to publish the > >picture, you will have to pay a surcharge for using the image in that > >manner. This is one way that American museums are staying in business, > >since the cut in funding of the arts. > > Since I too try to be responsible, I'm asking for a clarification here. > If a museum owns something (e.g. medieval Italian textile), and I > myself took a photo of it with my own camera (which the V & A allows > without requiring any special permission), I was under the impression > that I could in fact put that photo on a website without infringing > any copyrights. (Haven't done so yet, just hoping to find time for it, > so far...) Is that correct, or incorrect? > As I mentioned, the control of property is a separate issue from copyright.You do own the copyright to your own photo, and no one else could publish it without your permission. But if it depicts the property of the V & A, whether you can publish it on your web site or elsewhere depends on the policies of the V & A. For all I know their official policy is that people can take photos for personal study but not publish them without further permission; I think they can stipulate something like that if they want to. Or they could stipulate you have to give them a specific credit line, or something like that. I don't know what the policies of this museum may be; the best thing would be to just ask them. Fran --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 15:22:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19620 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:22:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05048; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:36:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA21905 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:34:00 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from proxy3.ba.best.com (root@proxy3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.14]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21898 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:33:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from best.com (lavolta.vip.best.com [206.86.95.234]) by proxy3.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.out) with ESMTP id NAA09123 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3798D11B.2B387820@best.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 13:31:23 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright question References: <00c501bed53c$7727be80$7d56accf@costume> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Lavolta Press > > > If a museum is the owner of an original piece of work, such as a painting, > than they are the copyright holder. Where manuscripts are concerned, if you > own an original copy or have permission to use from an original owner than > you may use it, as long as it's copyright has expired and has not been > renewed. > > One of the things people need to remember is that museum and library > collections own the rights of originals. One of the money making venues for > museums is in their granting publishing rights. An example, most museums > charge for photographs of their collections. IF you want to publish the > picture, you will have to pay a surcharge for using the image in that > manner. This is one way that American museums are staying in business, > since the cut in funding of the arts. > > > > One of the museums that I am working with wants me to enbed codes in all > their images that I use. They do not want anyone to take the images without > permission. This was a major concern for the musem. I will have to pay for > the software to embed the codes and track on the web if someone is using > their images without permission. But this was part of the agreement we > made. Is this for the Milanese Tailor's Handbook? Fran > > > I would suggest that if you have found a picture of a painting in a book, > look and see if the museum or private collector is mentioned. Then contact > them. If the owner is not mentioned, contact the publisher of the book. > Please remember though, many private collectors do not wish to be known. > This maybe why they are not mentioned in the publication. But it does not > mean that they don't care if you use. > > A good rule to follow is that if you do not own the image out right, ask for > permission. But make sure that you are asking the right person. > > I'll jump up on my box now... > I am very passionate about copyright issues and the web. Many people think > they can just place anything out on the web and never ask for permission of > use from the original owners. Some people try to stand on that educational > use clause in U.S. copyrights. But that educational use clause is very > vague and is hard to stand up in court. Museums in America stay in business > due in large part to their publishing rights. Many museums are having a > very hard time since the budget cut in the funding of the arts. If we take > from the museums, they will eventually go under. Then our country will > loose a major part of our history. Many museums have cut their staffs > drastically since the federal budget cuts. Another way museums make money > is from publishing their exhibition catalogs. I have seen so many people > placing museum catalog images online without permission. Please ask the > museums if you want to borrow an image. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 15:24:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19634 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:24:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05223; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:37:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA22081 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:35:12 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22068 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:35:10 -0600 (MDT) From: SNSpies@aol.com Received: from SNSpies@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6VJJa11392 (4396) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:25:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6e93bf33.24ca29b7@aol.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:25:27 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: heat To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: SNSpies@aol.com << Oddly enough, the first fatality on the 1607 voyage to Jamestown was a man who died on Nevis (one of the islands in the Caribbean, before they got to VA). The contemporary account says he "boiled in his fat", which has been taken to mean he died of heat prostration or dehydration. >> Deb, you constantly amaze me with the breadth of your information! Nancy _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 15:27:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19647 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:27:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05887; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:41:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA22874 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:39:27 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from lib.uttyl.edu (lib.uttyl.edu [192.88.13.225]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA22863 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:39:25 -0600 (MDT) From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Received: by lib.uttyl.edu for H-COSTUME@indra.com; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:40:50 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:40:50 -0500 To: H-COSTUME@indra.com Message-Id: <990723154050.3bd@lib.uttyl.edu> Subject: H-COST: Re: Copyright/usage question Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu I would assume that the need to get permission also extends to images used in a slide-show presentation at a conference, correct? That's on my "to do" list for a Civil War (ACW) conference next summer, anyway. Vicki Betts vbetts@gower.net _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 15:33:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19813 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:33:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06724; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:45:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA23775 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:43:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mx2.io.com (IDENT:root@mx2.io.com [199.170.88.18]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23770 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:43:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eris.io.com (IDENT:ches@eris.io.com [199.170.88.11]) by mx2.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA23365 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:43:33 -0500 Received: from localhost (ches@localhost) by eris.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11138 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:43:32 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: eris.io.com: ches owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:43:32 -0500 (CDT) From: ches To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright question In-Reply-To: <3798D11B.2B387820@best.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: ches What is this software? As far as I know there is no way to protect the images once you post them on the internet. I have activly searched high and low for a process and have found hoaxes and wanna be's but in the end print screen will catch whatever your cache will not. The only thing that comes close to protection is called Weft, but it is for fonts only, not images. I am in the process of creating images as font extensions and seeing if it will work. Taking a bit of time but I should have some results soon. Please share the name of your program! :) Sincerely, F. Havas ches@io.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 15:35:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19823 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:35:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07332; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:49:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA24463 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:47:03 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp1-alterdial.uu.net (alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.22]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24455 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:47:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jwilbur1 by smtp1-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: 119.pcpool89.corp.us.uu.net [153.39.89.119]) id QQgzdr24322 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:46:59 GMT Message-Id: From: "Jessica Wilbur" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:46:57 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: 15th century ponderings Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199907222315.TAA04503@bajor.ici.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > > -Poster: Irene leNoir > > Jessica Wilbur wrote: > > >Is it just me, or does it look like the woman in the middle > >has only one underdress sleeve? > > The blue sleeve is a pinned-on oversleeve. If you look carefully, you > can see a slight peak to the top edge of the blue where it is pinned. > You can also see the same pulling effect on the lady on the right, who > wears green oversleeves pinned to a pink gown. The lady in the center is > only wearing one of her oversleeves because she has removed the other so > that she doesn't get it wet while she tests the water. > Of course! I should have figured that out... Thank you for pointing it out to me. It makes perfect sense. > (While you can't see the pins in this painting, I have seen others where > the pin is very clear.) > I think I have too, but now I can't remember where. > >the woman on the right is wearing a diagonally striped gown. > >Is this another case of artist's imagination, or is this a > >plausible outfit? Would the stripes have been woven in > >vertically and the gown cut on the bias? > > While I suppose it is possible that such an outfit might actually have > been worn, I highly doubt it. I think it is more likely that the gown is > a fantastical or allegorical creation. Do you know the title of the > artwork or what scene it is supposed to represent? That might give a > clue. Unfortunately, no. There's no title given on that particular web site. I would be willing to guess that at least one or two of the figures is a saint, but I couldn't tell you which ones. I'll see if I can find any more info on it. Thanks! --Jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 15:59:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20155 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:59:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10676; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:13:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA29570 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:10:22 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29553 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:10:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.217.210.117] (ell241.acadia.net [205.217.210.97]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA03892 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:10:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: pulliam@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:11:17 -0500 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Subject: H-COST: copyright issues Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: RO -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) << I was under the impression that I could in fact put that photo on a website without infringing any copyrights. (Haven't done so yet, just hoping to find time for it, so far...) Is that correct, or incorrect?>> Incorrect. The V&A allows you to take photographs of their artifacts only for your own personal use. Posting on a website legally is a form of publication, and therefore you must have permission to post your photos (and I can guarantee you won't get it from the V&A but other museums do allow it.) << I think that if your site is non commercial you will be OK;>> This is not correct. Publication is publication, commercial or otherwise. <> This is *not* okay, unless you own the original photograph yourself. The Mona Lisa may not be copyrighted, but the Louvre owns the painting and the rights to reproduce it. The same is true of old photographs and other images. Deborah _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 16:15:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20461 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:15:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12528; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:27:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA02801 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:25:34 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from bsumail.idbsu.edu (bsumail.idbsu.edu [132.178.16.40]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02787 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:25:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cobfac.boisestate.edu (cobfac.boisestate.edu [132.178.51.3]) by bsumail.idbsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16198 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:26:39 -0600 Message-Id: <199907232126.PAA16198@bsumail.idbsu.edu> Received: from COBFAC/SpoolDir by cobfac.boisestate.edu (Mercury 1.44); 23 Jul 99 15:25:29 -0700 Received: from SpoolDir by COBFAC (Mercury 1.44); 23 Jul 99 15:25:20 -0700 From: "Linda Yordy" Organization: College of Business & Economics To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:25:11 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: 15th century ponderings Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <199907222315.TAA04503@bajor.ici.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Linda Yordy" > > Do you know the title of the > > artwork or what scene it is supposed to represent? That might give a > > clue. > > Unfortunately, no. There's no title given on that particular web site. When this .jpg was first posted, I backtracked the address to the main page. If you go through the front door at http://ps.theatre.tulane.edu/Period.Styles/Costumes/text/Cost.Per_ Styles.html you'll get titles and text. The painting is entitled: Unknown German Master Detail, BIRTH OF THE VIRGIN, c. 1460 Alte Pinakothek, Munich The caption below: All are wearing the COTE-HARDIE with sleeves detached. This is a great site! Linda Yordy Phone: 208/426-4034 Boise State University Center for Management Development 1910 University Drive Boise, ID 83725-1660 ******************************************************** Yordy's Law #3: When wearing white, apply your lunch directly to your shirt -- it will end up there anyway. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 16:35:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20801 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:35:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15112; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:48:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA06810 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:45:36 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06804 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:45:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem35.barney.pol.co.uk ([195.92.7.35] helo=heri) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 117n8G-0007ME-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:45:33 +0100 Message-ID: <002d01bed554$b3be60c0$23075cc3@heri> From: "dave editors (Heritage Matters)" To: References: Subject: Re: H-COST: copyright issues on this planet Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:44:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave editors (Heritage Matters)" Snipped ----- Original Message ----- From: Deborah Pulliam > > << I think that if your site is non commercial you will be OK;>> > > This is not correct. Publication is publication, commercial or otherwise. I am afraid that the taking of my comments out of context may allow you to say this. In context however it is a different matter.> > < photograph but you have to find it and get your hands on it.>> > > This is *not* okay, unless you own the original photograph yourself. > I am sorry again "get your hands on it " implies , in my language , ownership of some sort.be it transitory or permanent , rented hired or bought.> It seems that I should point out that I was responding from the point of view of the real world, ie what actually happens or is likely to happen; rather than some very tight analysis of what any law or regulations may say. Like many other such areas that of copyright legislation is a working thing , a pliant entity. Yes it can be manipulated and dissected to mean one thing or the opposite , if we really want to waste time. As an example ; In UK law putting something on an internet site only becomes publishing , if a) it was put there with the intention of being looked at in its own right by another party and b) another party has actually looked at it. Ludicrous possibly but I did warn about being pernickety rather than living in the real world. Furthermore there are ways of taking any image and changing it so that much that it is no longer the original; but a work of art (or whatever) in its own right. A chap named Warhol proved this along time ago. The degree of change is not as great as many might expect.; Personally I am thankful for this, otherwise my living and that of a number of colleagues would rapidly dry up. Then we would find the real world a very cold and hungry place Dave This mail is copyright 1999 to LD.Mundy Editor Heritage Matters Magazine > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 16:43:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20952 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:43:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16614; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:56:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA08379 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:53:57 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp1-alterdial.uu.net (smtp1-alterdial.uu.net [192.48.96.19]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08363 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:53:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jwilbur1 by smtp1-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: 119.pcpool89.corp.us.uu.net [153.39.89.119]) id QQgzdv05075 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 21:53:54 GMT Message-Id: From: "Jessica Wilbur" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:53:52 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: 15th century ponderings Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199907232126.PAA16198@bsumail.idbsu.edu> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" Ah, thank you! I will check out the other one as well. --Jessica > > -Poster: "Linda Yordy" > > > > Do you know the title of the > > > artwork or what scene it is supposed to represent? That might give a > > > clue. > > > > Unfortunately, no. There's no title given on that particular web site. > > > When this .jpg was first posted, I backtracked the address to the > main page. If you go through the front door at > > http://ps.theatre.tulane.edu/Period.Styles/Costumes/text/Cost.Per_ > Styles.html > > you'll get titles and text. The painting is entitled: > Unknown German Master > Detail, BIRTH OF THE VIRGIN, > c. 1460 > Alte Pinakothek, Munich > > The caption below: > All are wearing the COTE-HARDIE with sleeves detached. > > This is a great site! > > > Linda Yordy > Phone: 208/426-4034 > Boise State University > Center for Management Development > 1910 University Drive > Boise, ID 83725-1660 > ******************************************************** > Yordy's Law #3: When wearing white, apply your lunch > directly to your shirt -- it will end up there anyway. > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 17:13:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA21467 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:13:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21157; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:24:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA13782 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:22:30 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from komarr.local.thibault.org (adsl-151-197-16-76.bellatlantic.net [151.197.16.76]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13762 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:22:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thibault.org (granny.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.16]) by komarr.local.thibault.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11960 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:21:56 -0400 Message-ID: <3798EB04.4B11B479@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:24:17 -0400 From: Cynthia Virtue Organization: Virtue Ventures http://www.virtue.to X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright question References: <00c501bed53c$7727be80$7d56accf@costume> <3798D11B.2B387820@best.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Cynthia Virtue This discussion is useful - thanks to all of you. I am confused: > > If a museum is the owner of an original piece of work, such as a painting, > > than they are the copyright holder. How can a museum hold copyright on a 15th century painting, since they likely did not acquire the item from the artist, and thus could not have had copyright assigned to the museum by the copyright-holder? Moreover, the artist is dead, and the 70 years (or whatever) have expired, so the item should have no copyright on it at all, I thought, no matter who has posession. cv -- At the receptions or dinners given to the bride after the wedding she wears her wedding dress, that is, to all those given within three months after her marriage. --The Ladies' Home Journal, March 1894 _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 17:13:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA21471 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:13:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20904; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:23:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA13384 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:20:29 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp1-alterdial.uu.net (alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.22]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13375 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:20:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jwilbur1 by smtp1-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: 119.pcpool89.corp.us.uu.net [153.39.89.119]) id QQgzdx08458 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:20:28 GMT Message-Id: From: "Jessica Wilbur" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:20:24 -0400 Subject: Re: H-COST: 15th century ponderings Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199907222315.TAA04503@bajor.ici.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > While I suppose it is possible that such an outfit might actually have > been worn, I highly doubt it. I think it is more likely that the gown is > a fantastical or allegorical creation. Do you know the title of the > artwork or what scene it is supposed to represent? That might give a > clue. I found the citation for the second picture. It is: Jean Fouquet Frontispiece, THE DEBATE OF VIRTUE AND FORTUNE, c. 1460 Public Library, Leningrad And beneath that: "A diagonally striped (rayed) gown. There is a sense of gold threads woven through all the fabrics. " So yes, the gown does look allegorical/fantastic. I would guess that the woman in the striped dress is Fortune, since there is a wheel behind her. I wonder if the stripes have any significance... Thanks! --Jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 17:50:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22096 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:50:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25293; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:04:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA20559 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:02:12 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from proxy3.ba.best.com (root@proxy3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.14]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20551 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:02:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from best.com (lavolta.vip.best.com [206.86.95.234]) by proxy3.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.out) with ESMTP id PAA05289 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3798F40D.37DA0CED@best.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:00:29 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright question References: <00c501bed53c$7727be80$7d56accf@costume> <3798D11B.2B387820@best.com> <3798EB04.4B11B479@thibault.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Lavolta Press Cynthia Virtue wrote: > -Poster: Cynthia Virtue > > This discussion is useful - thanks to all of you. > > I am confused: > > > > If a museum is the owner of an original piece of work, such as a painting, > > > than they are the copyright holder. > > How can a museum hold copyright on a 15th century painting, since they > likely did not acquire the item from the artist, and thus could not have > had copyright assigned to the museum by the copyright-holder? > > Moreover, the artist is dead, and the 70 years (or whatever) have > expired, so the item should have no copyright on it at all, I thought, > no matter who has posession. > > As I mentioned, the owner of an item has a right to control its use, which is a separate issue from copyright. Leonardo da Vinci may be long dead--but his surviving works have owners, who can legally control the creation and use of images of those works. Re Dave's message--it is both more ethical and legally safer to ask permission to use images, than wait to see if "in the real world" the owner sues you. People do sue over these issues, and just going to court costs a lot of money and time, even if you win the suit. Is it really worth risking this to use a few images in your web site or other publication? When you can just contact the publisher or museum and ask permission? Fran > > -- > At the receptions or dinners given to the bride after the wedding she > wears her wedding dress, that is, to all those given within three months > after her marriage. --The Ladies' Home Journal, March 1894 > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME -- --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 18:51:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA23077 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:51:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03343; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:04:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA00166 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:01:17 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00142 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:01:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costume (207-172-86-125.s125.tnt6.rcm.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.86.125]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA17210 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:01:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <012a01bed567$70488060$7d56accf@costume> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright question Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:59:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" I have archived the name of the software on my old computer. I will ask DC Webwomen on Monday for the name of the program again. They are a quiet email list on the weekends. What the software does in the programming of the image file it embeds a series of binary codes in the images. The webwomen gave the program high praise. I'll get back to you, Penny >What is this software? As far as I know there is no way to protect the >images once you post them on the internet. I have activly searched high >and low for a process and have found hoaxes and wanna be's but in the end >print screen will catch whatever your cache will not. > >The only thing that comes close to protection is called Weft, but it is >for fonts only, not images. I am in the process of creating images as >font extensions and seeing if it will work. Taking a bit of time but I >should have some results soon. > >Please share the name of your program! :) > >Sincerely, >F. Havas >ches@io.com > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 19:11:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA23403 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:11:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06564; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:25:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA03238 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:23:04 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03231 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:23:02 -0600 (MDT) From: Morghana@aol.com Received: from Morghana@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6LYGa11045 (7986) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:15:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <61f795a0.24ca5f94@aol.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:15:16 EDT Subject: H-COST: Re: h-costume-digest V4 #453 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Morghana@aol.com In a message dated 7/23/99 7:05:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, owner-h-costume-digest@indra.com writes: << From: ches Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 15:43:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright question - -Poster: ches What is this software? As far as I know there is no way to protect the images once you post them on the internet. I have activly searched high and low for a process and have found hoaxes and wanna be's but in the end print screen will catch whatever your cache will not. The only thing that comes close to protection is called Weft, but it is for fonts only, not images. I am in the process of creating images as font extensions and seeing if it will work. Taking a bit of time but I should have some results soon. Please share the name of your program! :) Sincerely, F. Havas ches@io.com >> What I use is DigiMarc. I have an ID, and use PhotoShop to embed it in all my images. For more information (including free use of the software and the various services they offer), check out the following website: http://www.digimarc.com/ ~Morghana _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 20:11:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24354 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:11:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA11037; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:23:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA10511 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:21:14 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: (from eliz@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA10504; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:21:13 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:21:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199907240121.TAA10504@net.indra.com> From: Karalee Larsen Pugmire Subject: H-COST: Mongol, Russian, and other northern medieval clothing To: h-costume@indra.com Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Karalee Larsen Pugmire I've said yes to something I shouldn't have. I don't know anything about Mongol, Russian or anyother clothing. Some one asked me to do a little research for them. I've bounced around the web a bit looking. Found some great sites for Viking/Norse attire but I can't seem to find anything on Mongol and _medieval_ Russian clothing. I just may not know enough about the cultures to know when I've found a good site. I also need off web stuff. Help please. Francesca da Bari Cote du Ciel (Logan, Utah) Francesca.da.Bari _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 20:40:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24896 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:40:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13047; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:54:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA13686 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:51:40 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from ultra2.quiknet.com (ultra2.quiknet.com [207.183.249.4]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA13678 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:51:38 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:51:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 9651 invoked from network); 24 Jul 1999 01:44:44 -0000 Received: from 203.240.3-2.fo.pmpool.quiknet.com (HELO JOANJURA) (207.183.240.203) by ultra2.quiknet.com with SMTP; 24 Jul 1999 01:44:44 -0000 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19990723185209.3dbf4eb0@mail2.quiknet.com> X-Sender: joanj@mail2.quiknet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Re:H-COST: Simplicity Renaissance - Panic over! Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 10:02 AM 7/23/99 +0000, teddy1 wrote: > >Teddy >(Too many weddings, too many events and not enough time!!) Ah, the price one pays for talent! Joan _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 20:40:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24900 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:40:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13076; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:54:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA13780 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:52:23 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: (from eliz@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA13771; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:52:22 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:52:22 -0600 (MDT) From: Elizabeth Lear Message-Id: <199907240152.TAA13771@net.indra.com> To: h-costume@net.indra.com Subject: H-COST: Mongol, Russian, and other northern medieval clothing Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Elizabeth Lear Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24929 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:44:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13503; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:58:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA14313 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:55:50 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from ultra2.quiknet.com (ultra2.quiknet.com [207.183.249.4]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA14299 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:55:47 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:55:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 10261 invoked from network); 24 Jul 1999 01:48:53 -0000 Received: from 203.240.3-2.fo.pmpool.quiknet.com (HELO JOANJURA) (207.183.240.203) by ultra2.quiknet.com with SMTP; 24 Jul 1999 01:48:53 -0000 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19990723185618.3db7fce8@mail2.quiknet.com> X-Sender: joanj@mail2.quiknet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com, h-costume-digest@indra.com From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Re: H-COST: what's def? Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 09:18 AM 7/23/99 EDT, Gaelscot@aol.com wrote: > >Okay, I'll bite -- what's def? > [snip] >Gail Finke It's short for "defined [as]" or "definition" Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 20:45:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24937 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:45:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13508; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:58:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA14312 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:55:49 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from ultra2.quiknet.com (ultra2.quiknet.com [207.183.249.4]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA14298 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:55:47 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:55:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 10261 invoked from network); 24 Jul 1999 01:48:53 -0000 Received: from 203.240.3-2.fo.pmpool.quiknet.com (HELO JOANJURA) (207.183.240.203) by ultra2.quiknet.com with SMTP; 24 Jul 1999 01:48:53 -0000 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19990723185618.3db7fce8@mail2.quiknet.com> X-Sender: joanj@mail2.quiknet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com, h-costume-digest@indra.com From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Re: H-COST: what's def? Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 09:18 AM 7/23/99 EDT, Gaelscot@aol.com wrote: > >Okay, I'll bite -- what's def? > [snip] >Gail Finke It's short for "defined [as]" or "definition" Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 20:46:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24944 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:46:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13753; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:00:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA14660 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:58:16 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from ultra2.quiknet.com (ultra2.quiknet.com [207.183.249.4]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA14650 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:58:13 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:58:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 10653 invoked from network); 24 Jul 1999 01:51:19 -0000 Received: from 203.240.3-2.fo.pmpool.quiknet.com (HELO JOANJURA) (207.183.240.203) by ultra2.quiknet.com with SMTP; 24 Jul 1999 01:51:19 -0000 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19990723185844.3db7b428@mail2.quiknet.com> X-Sender: joanj@mail2.quiknet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Re: H-COST: Wearing Stays Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 09:48 AM 7/23/99 -0400, Chantal Pecourt wrote: > >-Poster: Chantal Pecourt > >Hello all > I am about ready to make my first purchass of 18th century stays. I am >looking at the back lacing with the shoulder strap version. I was >wondering, has anyone worn this type or another type of stay? How >comfortable or uncomfortable are they? Is Lightly boned better than >half-boned? Should they be the appropriate back lacing or should they be >front and back lacing? > >Thanks Be certain you have enough boning in the *backs* to keep the corset from wrinkling when you wear it. Such wrinkles are a *major* source of pain and possible welts. Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA joanj@quiknet.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 20:48:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24954 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:48:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13401; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:56:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA14001 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:53:49 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from ultra2.quiknet.com (ultra2.quiknet.com [207.183.249.4]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA13993 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:53:47 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 19:53:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 9941 invoked from network); 24 Jul 1999 01:46:54 -0000 Received: from 203.240.3-2.fo.pmpool.quiknet.com (HELO JOANJURA) (207.183.240.203) by ultra2.quiknet.com with SMTP; 24 Jul 1999 01:46:54 -0000 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19990723185419.3dbfb2ae@mail2.quiknet.com> X-Sender: joanj@mail2.quiknet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Joan M Jurancich Subject: Re: H-COST: White wedding dresses Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Joan M Jurancich At 07:51 AM 7/23/99 -0400, Melanie Wilson wrote: > >-Poster: Melanie Wilson > >>White was pretty much an established color for wedding gowns by 1894. >>Checkout this article in the Ladies Home Journal >>After the 1940s you mainly see white/candlelight gowns. Once in awhile you >>will see a dress in color, but it is rare. > >my grandma got married in blue in the 1930s England it wasn't that unusual >! > >Mel And my mother was married in a lime green suit in 1948 in Oakland, California. Joan _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 23 22:09:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA26349 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:09:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20827; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 21:21:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA23326 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 21:18:34 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from c2smtp.kentlaw.edu (c2smtp.kentlaw.edu [192.148.222.9]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23321 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 1999 21:18:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: X-SMF-Message-ID: ABE9983701AA3400 X-SMF-Hop-Count: 1 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 22:16:00 -0500 From: KATHARINE WHISLER To: h-costume@indra.com X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00102459 Subject: RE: H-COST: Copyright question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: InterChange (Hydra) SMTP v3.51 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: KATHARINE WHISLER Cynthia Virtue writes: >I am confused: > > > If a museum is the owner of an original piece of work, such as a > > > painting, than they are the copyright holder. >How can a museum hold copyright on a 15th century painting, since they >likely did not acquire the item from the artist, and thus could not have >had copyright assigned to the museum by the copyright-holder? >Moreover, the artist is dead, and the 70 years (or whatever) have >expired, so the item should have no copyright on it at all, I thought, >no matter who has posession. Maybe I can explain this more clearly, since the person you were quoting was a little inexact. Let's go back to a hypothetical someone mentioned earlier where you borrow a public domain magazine from your friend who does not want you to copy it. You are completely correct that if the hypothetical magazine is out of copyright, it is out of copyright-- copying it cannot be a copyright violation. And even if it were still protected by copyright, the hypothetical friend would still own only that *copy* not the *copyright*. What is confusing here is that even if the magazine is out of copyright, the person who owns the physical copy of the magazine has the right to control it, and if he or she lends it to you, you may only do with it what he or she intends for you to do with it. If your friend makes money by selling copies of the magazine, and lends with the understanding that you will not also make copies and sell them, then you have breached your contract with your friend who lent you the magazine-- an entirely different cause of action from copyright infringement. (Note, by the way, that the copies your hypothetical friend is making and selling are arguably themselves new works which may not be recopied without violating the friend's copyright in those *new* copies.) I am speaking of United States law only here. An even clearer example: if you "borrowed" your friend's public domain magazine without his or her permission and made copies, you still wouldn't be violating the *copyright* law. But, you could still find yourself in trouble with the police! (And with your friend, for trespass to chattel or whatever they call it in your state.) The situation with the museums is similar to the hypothetical. They are allowing you to take a picture (the copyright of which you will own) of their property (call this agreement a license, which is a kind of contract), but only so long as you use the picture only in the ways that they permit. If you use it in some other way, you will have breached your contract with them. The key in this situation is the "deal" between you and the museum. If they say "take all the pictures & do whatever you want with them" then you can go publish all over the place. Evidently, this is not the policy of the V&A. (Their "deal" seems to include "and we get a non-exclusive license to use your photograph" for one.) This distinction between copyright infringement and breach of contract may seem a minor one, but it really is not. The level of blame required for copyright violation is extremely low-- it is called "strict liability" because excuses like "I did through an innocent mistake" will not work. If you did it, you are guilty, game over. Breach of contract is a much more complex situation. It is, however, not a situation you want to get into. The bottom line is, to avoid trouble you should ask permission before you use the picture. I hope this is helpful! Katharine Whisler (taking a study break from studying for the Bar exam) P.S. This is not legal advice. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 24 01:51:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA30201 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 01:50:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA05009; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 01:03:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA14477 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 01:01:18 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from scorpion.netspace.net.au (scorpion.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.106]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA14469 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 01:01:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from whirlwind.netspace.net.au (whirlwind.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.70]) by scorpion.netspace.net.au (8.9.1/8.9.1/NS) with ESMTP id RAA01548 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 17:01:10 +1000 (EST) Received: from netspace.net.au.netspace.net.au (dialup-t1-364.Melbourne.netspace.net.au [210.15.251.110]) by whirlwind.netspace.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.1/NS) with ESMTP id RAA18657 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 17:01:07 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199907240701.RAA18657@whirlwind.netspace.net.au> From: "Christopher Ballis" To: Subject: H-COST: Copyright in Australia Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 16:51:30 +1000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" The following is a side bar to the copyright stuff discussed recently but may be of use to list members. I am not a lawyer but I have had some contact with copyright issues through work... In Australia, copyright is automatically assigned to the creator of the item in question. That creator has the right to sell or otherwise dispose of the work as they see fit. It is not required to place any copyright notice on the work or register it although it is advisable to do so to save confusion. There have also been cases of overseas users taking the work to thier country and assigning thier own copyright to it which is recognmised internationally, effectively stealing the work from the true owner. The lesson: Always identify your ownership to be on the safe side. You should also consult with a lawyer or similar type if you feel issues may arise. -C. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 24 02:52:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA31332 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 02:52:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA08426; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 02:06:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA18923 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 02:03:28 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from aus.compassnet.com.au ([203.26.180.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA18913 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 02:03:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from glenda-s-pc by aus.compassnet.com.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA00911; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 18:00:30 +1000 Message-ID: <01e901bed5aa$dd839fa0$8bb41acb@glenda-s-pc> From: "Glenda Robinson" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 18:02:22 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Glenda Robinson" Karie wrote:> >Glenda, > >What's a "hottish" summer day? 80? 90? It all depends on where you live. >Those temps for me (living in Texas) are a balmy spring day. Temps here >range somewhat higher for us in the South I can't remember, but I think it was about 80-85ish. We're in Sydney, Australia. Different temperatures affect people differently, though. In England (so I've heard on the tele) it's thought to be a heatwave at 25 celcius max., but here, that's just a hot winter's day, or an average Spring/Summer day. The same happens, of course, in reverse. I don't think I could cope with maximums of below zero celcius for days on end. >We have a custom here in Texas of being Greek and Roman during the hottest >of our summer months and reverting back to our "usual" styles during the >rest of the year. It saves on medical bills and trauma. We do this too, but I belong to a few different groups, two of which are ancient. Our ancient season goes from late October to Easter, and mostly the later period ones go from early March through to the end of November. If it's REALLY hot (over 100), I find that Roman/Greek women's clothing is only OK if it's pure linen or cotton, otherwise I just find it unbearable. The men are really lucky. > >What I'm trying to say is that I would prefer more accurate measurements of >time and temperature. I would hate for anyone (including myself) to make an >outfit expecting to withstand a "hottish" summer day and wind up in the >infirmary due to heat exhaustion. > Definitely! Though I found that the layers actually insulated me against the heat if I was resting. Dancing was another matter. Glenda _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 24 06:48:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA02215 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 06:48:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA16234; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 05:57:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA24556 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 05:52:22 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from bajor.ici.net (bajor.ici.net [207.180.0.58]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA24549 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 05:52:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (d-gnaps-33.ici.net [207.180.12.40]) by bajor.ici.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA29585 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907241151.HAA29585@bajor.ici.net> Subject: H-COST: Question about Tartans Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:52:18 -0400 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Irene leNoir To: "H-Costume" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id FAA24550 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Irene leNoir Hello Everyone, In my research, I've run across three possible definitions of a tartan, and I was hoping people could tell me which one they think is the correct one. 1) A plaid twill. 2) A plaid twill that represents a Scottish Clan. 3) Any plaid that represents a Scottish Clan. Jessica Clark SCA: Irène leNoir irene@ici.net http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 24 08:16:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA03629 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 08:16:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA20357; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:31:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA01750 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:28:45 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA01745 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:28:43 -0600 (MDT) From: BarbMVD@aol.com Received: from BarbMVD@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6MRLa16929 (4459) for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:26:59 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Question about Tartans To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: BarbMVD@aol.com irene@ici.net writes: << which one they think is the correct one. 1) A plaid twill. 2) A plaid twill that represents a Scottish Clan. 3) Any plaid that represents a Scottish Clan. >> Irene - the answer is none of the above: Tartan in the old sense (since this is historic costume) referred to a kind of cloth, a thin hard material made from wool spun very fine and woven at as many as seventy threads to the inch; its texture was more like linen. This old hard tartan was extremely durable and weatherproof. It is important to remember that prior to the nineteenth century uniform clan tartans did not exist. Going back to the writings of Martin in 1703 "Every Isle differs from each other in their Fancy of making Plades, as to the Stripes in Breadth and Colours. This Humour is as different through the main Land of the Highlands, in so far that they who have seen those places, are able at the first View of a Man's Plad, to guess the Place of his Residence . . ." Barbara Delorey List Manager: 18cWoman@onelist.com DAR/Reenactors: http://hometown.aol.com/barbmvd/page/dar.htm Battle Road Clothing: http://www.ziplink.net/~mrkmcc/delory.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 24 08:39:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04012 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 08:39:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA21427; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:53:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA03578 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:51:12 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from munich.ixos.de (HOST.31.95.ixos.de [149.235.31.95]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA03569 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:51:09 -0600 (MDT) From: costume@gmx.net Received: from gmx.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by munich.ixos.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25876 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 15:51:18 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <3799A0F9.CA95212E@gmx.net> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 13:18:17 +0200 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: stays References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: costume@gmx.net > ><< Do you make your costumes on a dresstand that is fitted to the period? > > A modern dresstand is not good to fit garments on i think, the bust is > > wrong. > I always make my costumes on the real thing -- me. > That's why I've so far refused to make fancy gowns for > anybody else. They're never around to be fitted. i must say, even when the bust is wrong, a dress stand is a very helpful thing to have. i have difficulties fitting e.g. the back on myself... i have a 1950s dress stand made of wire. you can put it on like a jacket and mould it to your shape... and of course, you can mould it to a period shape as well. i've seen that there are similar devices out that work with electricity: they get soft if plugged in, you put it on and shape it, plug it out, and when it's cooled, it's stiff again. sounds like a good thing to have... if only they weren't so awfully expensive! salut, pompadour _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 24 08:39:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04016 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 08:39:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA21430; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:53:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA03583 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:51:13 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from munich.ixos.de (HOST.31.95.ixos.de [149.235.31.95]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA03577 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:51:11 -0600 (MDT) From: costume@gmx.net Received: from gmx.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by munich.ixos.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25880 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 15:51:22 +0100 (WET DST) Message-ID: <3799A313.BABA1740@gmx.net> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 13:27:15 +0200 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Norwegian jewelry question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: costume@gmx.net > too!) I doubt that I'll have much say in where the tour guide takes us, > but what should I be on the lookout for, museums in my spare time, etc? there's a list (incomplete, but i hope you'll have something to add to it once you come back) of costume museums in europe: www.marquise.de/misc/museums.html salut, pompadour _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 24 09:59:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA05259 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:59:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27970; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:14:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA10948 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:12:06 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.12]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10931 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:12:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem118.fred.pol.co.uk ([195.92.7.246] helo=heri) by svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 1183Sy-0005qn-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 16:12:00 +0100 Message-ID: <009c01bed5e6$e480c030$f6075cc3@heri> From: "dave editors (Heritage Matters)" To: References: Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright question -electronic fingerprints. Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 14:46:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "dave editors (Heritage Matters)" Just a few tips based on experience that might help The only way you can stop others from taking your images from the web is by not putting them there. Sorry to be so blunt but that is the main fact that one must accept. Electronic fingerprinting and watermarking doesnt really stop people anyone doing it; Its just a way of proving they have after the fact., and if all else fails you can take a pretty decent photo of something on the screen anyway. For years the high fashion business had people who would go to shows and then were able to make a drawing of everything they had seen, so that the imitators could get into production very quickly. The other important thing to remember is resolution factor. Dont put very high resolution pics on the web, either photos or graphics. then they cant be downloaded and used in printed material; ( some of our clients still will insist on negatives rather than digital downloads) We sell photos via our cooperative site; only our clients know where to look for the images and each have a entry code or password; we can tell who has seen which pics; Pics we post for public viewing , ie our Tewkesbury pics, are not the best shots, any sales having already been made before they were posted anyway. Any one that might wants to buy has already seen at least a sample image days before anyone can download them and try to sell; Adobe Photoshop has the facility to add a whole host of caption and details in text form, most picture editors will require these and this format ( you cant scribble notes on the back of a digital image) Cost effectiveness; if the amount of time and trouble as well as actual cost begins to add up rapidly, then balance this against the financial losses involved in others using your images; This is usually impossible to quantify anyway. One must have something that is very hot , and undeniable needs to put it on the web, before iy becomes worthwhile trying to protect it. +++ On the other hand if you really really need an illustration for your website, rather than pure decorative whim, and dont want to hazard the copyright maze, why not investigate other accepted and acceptable methods of circumnavigation; freehand drawings or recreation. I know it might be impossible to recreate a whole costume but for small details (if you have the skill) a small recreation can be made and then photographed from all angles in good lighting, and may be much better than the first image. Then there is just the worry of someone lifting your copyrighted recreation. Dave > -Poster: ches > > What is this software? As far as I know there is no way to protect the > images once you post them on the internet. I have activly searched high > and low for a process and have found hoaxes and wanna be's but in the end > print screen will catch whatever your cache will not. > > The only thing that comes close to protection is called Weft, but it is > for fonts only, not images. I am in the process of creating images as > font extensions and seeing if it will work. Taking a bit of time but I > should have some results soon. > > Please share the name of your program! :) > > Sincerely, > F. Havas > ches@io.com > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 24 11:01:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06345 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:01:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05911; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 10:15:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA16632 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 10:13:30 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from zeus.directcon.net (zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16626 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 10:13:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r4p29.directcon.net [206.170.184.78]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA05917 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907241612.JAA05917@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright question Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson Thanks, everyone, for copyright advice. I've consulted the only lawyer I can afford, my Mom, and she says she's not knowledgable enough in the field to advise me. (she also says I should have gone to law school, but that's an old story). Not wanting to spend hundreds in legal fees to produce a not for profit page, I've removed most of the images. It's not so pretty but I'm not breaking the law, either. It should be up in a few days. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 24 11:25:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06670 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:25:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08093; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 10:39:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA19260 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 10:37:45 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from ic.net (ic.net [152.160.8.96]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA19255 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 10:37:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199907241637.KAA19255@net.indra.com> Received: (qmail 17802 invoked from network); 24 Jul 1999 16:28:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO p143.204.ic.net) (206.84.204.143) by unknown with SMTP; 24 Jul 1999 16:28:17 -0000 From: "Steve & Michelle Plumb" To: "historic costume group" Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:41:02 -0400 Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.96a For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: H-COST: Question about Tartans Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Steve & Michelle Plumb" Hello all. I also have a query about Tartans. I was watching the opening ceremonies to the Pan American Games last night, when a troupe of bagpipers marched onto the field. Some of them were wearing a tartan that just made me drool, and I was wondering about its name. It looked to be a maroon and grey pattern. Does anyone have any idea what its name is? I would LOVE to use that fabric! I have sources to buy tartan, but the search utility goes by name, not color. It would take a month of Sundays to find it by that method. Any ideas? TIA, Michelle =========================================================== Steve & Michelle Plumb -- splumb@ic.net Plymouth, Michigan USA "Gstaad. Today, a paradise in the Alps. Tomorrow, a wasteland. Compared to Clouseau, Atilla the Hun was a Red Cross Volunteer." -- Herbert Lom, in "Return of the Pink Panther" =========================================================== _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 24 12:20:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA07577 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:20:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13283; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:33:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA25277 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:31:35 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail.inil.com (inil.com [206.31.32.8]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25272 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:31:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [209.176.240.97] ([209.176.240.33]) by mail.inil.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 177-57935U7500L650S0V35) with ESMTP id com; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:31:30 -0500 X-Sender: baddorf@pop3.inil.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01e901bed5aa$dd839fa0$8bb41acb@glenda-s-pc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:31:23 +0100 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Deb Baddorf Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Deb Baddorf I've come up with a new idea that might keep me cool. It's not period, but if it works, I'll continue it! I have a Revolutionary War encampment next weekend (7/31, 8/1) (Wheaton, Illinois, for anybody near here) and our temperatures this current week are about 96 degrees real temp -- and 105 "heat index" (which is when they take the high humidity into account too, and tell you how hot it *feels* like it is.) Anyway -- after hiding a kitchen knife down the front of my corset one time -- where a busk might go -- and realizing how much space is available there -- I'm going to try a busk made out of ICE. After pondering how to make such a thing, I've settled on the "snack size" ziplock baggies. 5 or 6" wide (like a regular sandwich bag) but only 3" deep. They're made for kids' snacks. Partially filled with water, zipped closed so as to exclude air pockets, and frozen solid -- I'm hoping I can stick one down my corset front and cool myself off!! I'll bring a lot of them, in my ice chest, since they'll melt and lose their usefullness. I'm already in the habit of dropping an ice cube down my front occasionally. Heck, my corset is already wet and sweaty -- a little good clean ice water won't hurt it. With this new concept, the water ought to stay in the bag. I hope. After 8/1 I'll know if they did any good! I wonder if I can patent this ..... ;-) Deb Deb Baddorf http://www.inil.com/users/baddorf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 24 13:19:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA08547 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 13:19:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18310; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:33:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA02738 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:31:19 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from hotmail.com (f265.hotmail.com [207.82.251.156]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA02731 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:31:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 81214 invoked by uid 0); 24 Jul 1999 18:30:46 -0000 Message-ID: <19990724183046.81213.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 206.172.243.69 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:30:46 PDT X-Originating-IP: [206.172.243.69] From: "Andrea navin" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Question about Tartans Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:30:46 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Andrea navin" I believe that would be the Royal Canadian Air Force Regimental Tartan but I could be wrong. From far the blue could look grey and it has maroon it it. Here is a link to two variations of it. http://www.tartans.scotland.net/Pages/..\tartans\ts1343r.gif http://www.tartans.scotland.net/Pages/..\tartans\ts1342r.gif Back to lurking, Andrea >Hello all. > >I also have a query about Tartans. > >I was watching the opening ceremonies to the >Pan American Games last night, when a troupe >of bagpipers marched onto the field. > >Some of them were wearing a tartan that just >made me drool, and I was wondering about >its name. It looked to be a maroon and grey >pattern. Does anyone have any idea what >its name is? I would LOVE to use that fabric! > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 24 13:47:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA09094 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 13:47:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20596; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 13:00:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA05613 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:58:28 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from ic.net (ic.net [152.160.8.96]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA05605 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 12:58:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199907241858.MAA05605@net.indra.com> Received: (qmail 19941 invoked from network); 24 Jul 1999 18:49:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO p94.206.ic.net) (206.84.206.94) by unknown with SMTP; 24 Jul 1999 18:49:00 -0000 From: "Steve & Michelle Plumb" To: "historic costume group" Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 15:01:45 -0400 Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.96a For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: H-COST: More info on Tartan query Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Steve & Michelle Plumb" Hello again. I'm still looking for the name of the tartan I mentioned earlier, and thought I had better provide more info. It was spotted on the Pan American Games opening ceremonies last night. A marching bagpipe band came onto the field, and some of them were wearing a tartan (they were all wearing different ones, probably their clans) that I went crazy over. It is predominantly two shades of maroon (?), with what looks to be a light grey secondary color. It was suggested that the television could have made a light blue appear grey, and that is certainly true. As a matter of fact, my husband thought that the maroon could have been purple. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks, Michelle =========================================================== Steve & Michelle Plumb -- splumb@ic.net Plymouth, Michigan USA "Gstaad. Today, a paradise in the Alps. Tomorrow, a wasteland. Compared to Clouseau, Atilla the Hun was a Red Cross Volunteer." -- Herbert Lom, in "Return of the Pink Panther" =========================================================== _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 24 21:30:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA16711 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 21:30:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06475; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 20:44:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA20809 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 20:23:44 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20802 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 20:23:42 -0600 (MDT) From: Gwnvr@aol.com Received: from Gwnvr@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6USSa02144 (3936) for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 22:21:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 22:21:27 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: heat To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 24 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Gwnvr@aol.com In a message dated 7/23/99 3:51:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pulliam@acadia.net writes: << Oddly enough, the first fatality on the 1607 voyage to Jamestown was a man who died on Nevis (one of the islands in the Caribbean, before they got to VA). The contemporary account says he "boiled in his fat", >> I've been doing quite a bit of research on early Jamestown recently but had missed this little factoid. I had been wondering if the high mortality rate of the early years might have been as much from the extreme heat as from the cold in winter. It would be quite a shock coming from London to Virginia. (I know, I moved from San Francisco to Virginia in August once...;-p ) Jen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sat Jul 24 22:18:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA17440 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 22:18:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10562; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 21:31:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA26668 for h-costume-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 21:29:10 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26663 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 21:29:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer (ip168.r11.d.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.214.168]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA29285 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 20:29:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "Cathy Harding" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: More info on Tartan query Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 20:34:48 -0700 Message-ID: <000201bed64e$a5b44300$a8d614d1@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199907241858.MAA05605@net.indra.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Cathy Harding" I think that Lindsay and McPherson have a lot of purple in them.... Maeve > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Steve & Michelle Plumb > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 1999 12:02 PM > To: historic costume group > Subject: H-COST: More info on Tartan query > > > > -Poster: "Steve & Michelle Plumb" > > Hello again. > > I'm still looking for the name of the > tartan I mentioned earlier, and thought > I had better provide more info. > > It was spotted on the Pan American Games > opening ceremonies last night. A marching > bagpipe band came onto the field, and some > of them were wearing a tartan (they were all > wearing different ones, probably their clans) > that I went crazy over. > > It is predominantly two shades of maroon (?), > with what looks to be a light grey secondary > color. It was suggested that the television could > have made a light blue appear grey, and that > is certainly true. As a matter of fact, my husband > thought that the maroon could have been purple. > > Any info would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > Michelle > =========================================================== > Steve & Michelle Plumb -- splumb@ic.net > Plymouth, Michigan USA > > "Gstaad. Today, a paradise in the Alps. Tomorrow, a wasteland. > Compared to Clouseau, Atilla the Hun was a Red Cross Volunteer." > > -- Herbert Lom, in > "Return of the Pink Panther" > =========================================================== > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 25 01:29:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA20711 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 01:29:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA26082; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 00:27:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA13714 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 00:24:30 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from web601.yahoomail.com (web1106.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.126]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA13705 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 00:24:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19990725062331.12276.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Received: from [207.229.173.208] by web1106.mail.yahoo.com; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 02:23:31 EDT Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 02:23:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Carol Mitchell Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Carol Mitchell --- Deb Baddorf wrote: > > -Poster: Deb Baddorf Your idea sounds great. We were at the RennFaire all day today-wish we'd had something like it. Where in Wheaton is this event-is it Cantigny again? Thanks Carol Mitchell _________________________________________________________________
Carol Mitchell President Chicagoland Costumer's Guild
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_________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 25 06:59:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA26165 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 06:59:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA12231; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 06:13:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA22964 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 06:08:54 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from scorpion.netspace.net.au (scorpion.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.106]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA22956 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 06:08:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from whirlwind.netspace.net.au (whirlwind.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.70]) by scorpion.netspace.net.au (8.9.1/8.9.1/NS) with ESMTP id WAA02231 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:08:48 +1000 (EST) Received: from netspace.net.au.netspace.net.au (dialup-t1-250.Melbourne.netspace.net.au [210.15.250.250]) by whirlwind.netspace.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.1/NS) with ESMTP id WAA20945 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:08:45 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199907251208.WAA20945@whirlwind.netspace.net.au> From: "Christopher Ballis" To: Subject: H-COST: Costume-Con 20 ideas Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:06:37 +1000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Christopher Ballis" Dear all, A month or so back, on behalf of Costume-Con 20, I posted a request for what people would like to see at a really good costumers' convention. Thank you to all who submitted thier thoughts, many of which will be acted upon. We are always receptive to ideas and requests, fell free to, as Dino said, keep those cards and letters coming! For more information about the Australian Costumers' Guild or Costume-Con 20, feel free to E-mail or hit the web site at the bottom of this message. -C. Costume-Con 20, Melbourne Convention and Exhibition Centre, Melbourne, Australia Friday 16-Monday 18 February, 2002 Christopher Ballis, Evil overlo-err-chairman, Costume-Con 20, C/- Australian Costumers' Guild, PO Box 322, Bentleigh, 3204 stilskin@netspace.net.au www.vicnet.net.au/~costume/ _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 25 08:50:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA28018 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:50:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18817; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:03:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA01770 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:01:09 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01763 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:01:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Frntirfshn@aol.com Received: from Frntirfshn@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6ULWa12131 (3700) for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:00:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <73a6339d.24cc727c@aol.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:00:28 EDT Subject: H-COST: Storage and preservation To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 24 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Frntirfshn@aol.com Please direct to help on 2 ways to preserve these pieces of extant clothing. I would like to know a practical way of: 1. Displaying these pieces in a private home (full size dia-rama is out, my husband said so...) I do have LOTS of wall space and could actually have room on the walls to put up a full display if you could help me know the particulars for it. 2. storage the pieces are: 1. A man's linen shirt from the 1820's 2. Ladies chemises from late 1890's- early 1900's. one has crocheted yoke. 3. A full military outfit from W.W.II 4. A full length fur coat and midnight blue bias-cut velvet after-five long gown from the same era. I Have the picture of #3, 4 on their owners to go with the clothing. Thanks in advance, Eileen Watson _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 25 09:33:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28688 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:33:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA22009; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:43:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA05779 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:40:47 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp5.mindspring.com (smtp5.mindspring.com [207.69.200.82]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05773 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:40:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion (user-2iveh87.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.69.7]) by smtp5.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA09948 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:40:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00aa01bed6aa$1a640720$0745f7a5@pavilion> From: "Megan McHugh" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: White wedding dresses Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:29:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Megan McHugh" >>my grandma got married in blue in the 1930s England it wasn't that unusual >>! >> >>Mel > >And my mother was married in a lime green suit in 1948 in Oakland, California. > >Joan > And mine was married in a blue suit in 1959. But she was pregnant. Her twin sister was married in the full white gown. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 25 09:35:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28701 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:35:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA22811; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:49:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA06422 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:47:40 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp5.mindspring.com (smtp5.mindspring.com [207.69.200.82]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06413 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:47:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion (user-2iveh87.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.69.7]) by smtp5.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA22475 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:47:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00cb01bed6ab$0f9187e0$0745f7a5@pavilion> From: "Megan McHugh" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: stays Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:33:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Megan McHugh" I would love to have one of these easy to mold wire dress stands. The ones they sell don't work well as I am short waisted and of variable weight. ANybody know if anyone still sells them? (I've done the duct tape one, but need to redo it as I've lost weight) -----Original Message----- From: costume@gmx.net To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Saturday, July 24, 1999 9:51 AM Subject: Re: H-COST: stays > >-Poster: costume@gmx.net > >> ><< Do you make your costumes on a dresstand that is fitted to the period? >> > A modern dresstand is not good to fit garments on i think, the bust is >> > wrong. > >> I always make my costumes on the real thing -- me. >> That's why I've so far refused to make fancy gowns for >> anybody else. They're never around to be fitted. > >i must say, even when the bust is wrong, a dress stand is a very helpful >thing to have. i have difficulties fitting e.g. the back on myself... > >i have a 1950s dress stand made of wire. you can put it on like a jacket >and mould it to your shape... and of course, you can mould it to a >period shape as well. i've seen that there are similar devices out that >work with electricity: they get soft if plugged in, you put it on and >shape it, plug it out, and when it's cooled, it's stiff again. sounds >like a good thing to have... if only they weren't so awfully expensive! > > >salut, >pompadour > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 25 09:35:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28705 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:35:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA22815; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:49:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA06427 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:47:41 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp5.mindspring.com (smtp5.mindspring.com [207.69.200.82]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06420 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:47:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion (user-2iveh87.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.69.7]) by smtp5.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA04228 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:47:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00cc01bed6ab$101f7000$0745f7a5@pavilion> From: "Megan McHugh" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:36:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Megan McHugh" Sounds like a great idea!!! Let us know how it works for you. -----Original Message----- From: Deb Baddorf To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Saturday, July 24, 1999 1:32 PM Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors > >-Poster: Deb Baddorf > >I've come up with a new idea that might keep me cool. >It's not period, but if it works, I'll continue it! > >I have a Revolutionary War encampment next weekend >(7/31, 8/1) (Wheaton, Illinois, for anybody near here) >and our temperatures this current week are about >96 degrees real temp -- and 105 "heat index" (which >is when they take the high humidity into account too, >and tell you how hot it *feels* like it is.) > >Anyway -- after hiding a kitchen knife down the front >of my corset one time -- where a busk might go -- >and realizing how much space is available there -- >I'm going to try a busk made out of ICE. >After pondering how to make such a thing, I've >settled on the "snack size" ziplock baggies. >5 or 6" wide (like a regular sandwich bag) >but only 3" deep. They're made for kids' snacks. > >Partially filled with water, zipped closed so as >to exclude air pockets, and frozen solid -- I'm >hoping I can stick one down my corset front and >cool myself off!! I'll bring a lot of them, >in my ice chest, since they'll melt and lose their >usefullness. > >I'm already in the habit of dropping an ice cube >down my front occasionally. Heck, my corset is >already wet and sweaty -- a little good clean >ice water won't hurt it. With this new concept, >the water ought to stay in the bag. I hope. > >After 8/1 I'll know if they did any good! >I wonder if I can patent this ..... ;-) > >Deb > >Deb Baddorf http://www.inil.com/users/baddorf > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 25 09:35:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28709 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:35:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA22887; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:50:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA06466 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:48:11 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tn.home.com [24.2.7.66]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06460 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:48:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from home.com ([24.1.35.138]) by mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990725144809.MDX22986.mail.rdc1.tn.home.com@home.com> for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 07:48:09 -0700 Message-ID: <379B23A2.925E2084@home.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:48:02 -0500 From: Kat & Kent X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors References: <19990725062331.12276.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Kat & Kent Whilst mothering...uh, I mean, helping out the performers at the TN Ren Faire I kept two tubs of cold water with a few drops of peppermint oil added to it within which I put white cloths (scraps from every white garment I'd made the previous year that look period in weave). These could be carried, just used 'backstage' or stuffed under a hat or into a bodice. I also had two spray bottles of peppermint water to spray down the performers. A friend of mine who is a reenactor used lavender instead. Some have refused to use them because of fear that their very expensive costumes might be damaged but I've never seen any evidence of such on my own (of course, as a costumer I only repeated myself once during the 9 days and that was a fluke ). I shall have to remember the snack bag & ice trick...it sounds like a good one! Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 25 09:59:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA29034 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:59:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24907; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:12:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA08767 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:10:03 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08759 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:10:01 -0600 (MDT) From: KKlocko@aol.com Received: from KKlocko@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6WQRa27468 (4394) for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 11:05:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 11:05:22 EDT Subject: H-COST: Men's Elizabethan doublet pattern? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: KKlocko@aol.com Could anyone recommend a men's Elizabethan doublet pattern? I've seen a lot in various catalogs, but after a horrible experience with a Period patterns pattern, I'd rather get what other people think before randomly buying one! Thanks! _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 25 10:53:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA29953 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:53:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29587; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:07:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA13886 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:05:28 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail.greatbasin.net (mail.greatbasin.net [207.228.35.39]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13881 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:05:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from danhome (rno-max1-32.gbis.net [207.228.60.96]) by mail.greatbasin.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA14197 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <003b01bed6b7$88183680$603ce4cf@danhome> From: "Dan Fenwick" To: References: Subject: Re: H-COST: Men's Elizabethan doublet pattern? Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:05:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Dan Fenwick" > Could anyone recommend a men's Elizabethan doublet pattern? I've seen a lot > in various catalogs, but after a horrible experience with a Period patterns > pattern, I'd rather get what other people think before randomly buying one! > Thanks! I'd suggest getting "Doublet and Trunkhose" by Trump. I know Green Duck used to carry it. Follow the directions and draft a pattern for the specific person. My only suggestions doing this is to NOT calcualte any of the measurements, rather, actually measure the person for all of them. Worked really well for me. You can modify the design if you want a different style doublet, it's relatively easy to do once you get the idea of what is going on. Dan _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 25 14:35:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00730 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:35:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21540; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:49:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA04974 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:46:28 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04967 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:46:26 -0600 (MDT) From: Gerekr@aol.com Received: from Gerekr@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6GRa006085 (4464) for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:43:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6a5e86f1.24ccc2f8@aol.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:43:52 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Fwd: More on V. of Willendorf (fwd) To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Gerekr@aol.com On 7/7/99 6:53 PM h-costume@indra.com wrote: >>From another list, I found it to be a very interesting article. > >> > >> >STONE AGE FIGURINES DRESSED TO TELL Fascinating article (yes, I'm trying to catch up/clean up my mail) ... the connection that popped into my fevered brain was... "traveling fashion dollies" -- maybe the emphasis on the alleged textile details was at least in part a method of transmitting information about advances in fibre technology from one area to another?? If it IS possible to see knots and spinning directions... Patsy/Chimene _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 25 15:45:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01871 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:45:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29053; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:58:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA11612 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:56:16 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp.leading.net (root@smtp.leading.net [207.98.192.90]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11605 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:56:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from a39193-s2-19-243.leading.net (a39193-s2-19-243.leading.net [216.199.27.243]) by smtp.leading.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA15819 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 16:56:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907252056.QAA15819@smtp.leading.net> From: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" To: "h-costume@indra.com" Date: Sun, 25 Jul 99 16:46:01 Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.95a For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: H-COST: Storage and preservation Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Arianne de Dragonnid mka Grace Payne" On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 Eileen wrote: >Please direct to help on 2 ways to preserve these pieces of extant clothing. >I would like to know a practical way of: > >1. Displaying these pieces in a private home (full size dia-rama is out, >my husband said so...) >I do have LOTS of wall space and could actually have room on the walls to put >up a full display if you could help me know the particulars for it. > >2. storage > >the pieces are: >1. A man's linen shirt from the 1820's >2. Ladies chemises from late 1890's- early 1900's. > one has crocheted yoke. >3. A full military outfit from W.W.II >4. A full length fur coat and midnight blue bias-cut velvet after-five >long gown from the same era. >I Have the picture of #3, 4 on their owners to go with the clothing. `````````````````````` Eileen, If you can't get your husband to accede to displaying at least some of these on mannequins, it's a pity. Some of them, like the linen shirt, sound like they could be nicely displayed in the sort of shadowbox-type frames used for illuminated pages. The others, if they cannot be displayed, should probably be dry-cleaned and packed in one of those acid-free (and I believe vacuum-sealed) boxes they use to preserve wedding gowns. Any reputable seller of wedding gowns should be able to point you in the right direction. I have no idea how much that would cost, since the only time I've had anything like that done was when I had my wedding gown preserved, using a coupon from the lady who sold me the gown. The box is about the size and shape of a large suitcase, and one of the large sides lifts up to show a display window. Very nice. Yours, Arianne _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 25 15:46:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01879 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:46:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29205; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:00:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA11782 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:58:07 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11772 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:58:06 -0600 (MDT) From: Kwhykelly@aol.com Received: from Kwhykelly@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6PTEa11785 (4188) for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 16:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <956a4d7d.24ccd2f7@aol.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 16:52:07 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Samples and Sources To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Kwhykelly@aol.com I have natural silk/hemp fabric if you are interested. Kristi Kelly _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 25 19:35:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05615 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:35:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22310; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:49:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA02761 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:46:51 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02756 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:46:50 -0600 (MDT) From: RobesOf@aol.com Received: from RobesOf@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6UQKa19859 (14383) for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:43:06 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Storage and preservation To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com << Some of them, like the linen shirt, sound like they could be nicely displayed in the sort of shadowbox-type frames used for illuminated pages. >> If you frame these items in shadowboxes, be sure the mats lining the inside are acid free cotton rag (not paper). The glass should be "museum glass" used to preserve museum quality items from sun and artificial light. You could also use conservation glass, a less expensive and more easily obtained alternative. The former is obviously the type glass you will find in a museum. The latter is similar but only has 98% UV protection. Regular glass and matte glass will not protect against light at all. Displaying these items properly in a shadowbox frame will cost $200-500 at minimum for a shirt size. My husband was the head of a frame shop chain for years. If you have more questions regarding framing for preservation and display, feel free to contact me. Erica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 25 21:02:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA07053 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:02:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02755; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:15:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA11376 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:13:26 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail.inil.com (inil.com [206.31.32.8]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11369 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:13:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [209.176.240.116] by mail.inil.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 177-57935U7500L650S0V35) with ESMTP id com; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:13:20 -0500 X-Sender: baddorf@pop3.inil.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990725062331.12276.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:13:00 +0100 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Deb Baddorf Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors Cc: Carol Mitchell Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Deb Baddorf [ "busk" made of ice ] Your idea sounds great. We were at the RennFaire all day today-wish we'd had something like it. Where in Wheaton is this event-is it Cantigny again? Thanks Carol Mitchell Yup -- Cantigny. Corner of 38 and Winfield, Wheaton, Illinois. Sat, Sun ~ 10:00 - 5:00. Or maybe it's 9:30 to 5:00. Deb Deb Baddorf http://www.inil.com/users/baddorf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Sun Jul 25 21:07:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA07076 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:07:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04036; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:21:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA11980 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:19:08 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail.inil.com (inil.com [206.31.32.8]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11973 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 20:19:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [209.176.240.116] by mail.inil.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 177-57935U7500L650S0V35) with ESMTP id com; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:19:03 -0500 X-Sender: baddorf@pop3.inil.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00cc01bed6ab$101f7000$0745f7a5@pavilion> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:17:33 +0100 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Deb Baddorf Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Deb Baddorf >-Poster: "Megan McHugh" > >Sounds like a great idea!!! Let us know how it works for you. >-----Original Message----- >From: Deb Baddorf >> >>I've come up with a new idea that might keep me cool. >>I'm going to try a busk made out of ICE. >>.....the "snack size" ziplock baggies. >>5 or 6" wide (like a regular sandwich bag) >>but only 3" deep. They're made for kids' snacks. >> >>Partially filled with water, zipped closed so as >>to exclude air pockets, and frozen solid >>I wonder if I can patent this ..... ;-) Well, for starters -- a number of the baggies burst their seams while freezing. Just a little, but that means I'm going to get wet as they melt down my front. SO -- add to the "plan": I'll take a box of larger ziplocs to stick the ice busks INTO, before each use. And some muslin handkerchiefs (or scraps) to wrap the ice in, in case a chunk of ice right next to my heart proves to be a bad idea! Deb Deb Baddorf http://www.inil.com/users/baddorf _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 00:19:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA10176 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 00:19:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26599; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:32:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00420 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:28:37 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (root@lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net [209.165.6.246]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA00413 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:28:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from raiden.lightspeed.net (raiden.lightspeed.net [209.165.6.245]) by lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10586 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gunsafes (209-165-58-44.lightspeed.net [209.165.58.44]) by raiden.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14630 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002701bed727$ea044f80$744efea9@gunsafes> From: "Michelle" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:30:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Michelle" -----Original Message----- From: Deb Baddorf To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Saturday, July 24, 1999 10:24 AM Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors > >-Poster: Deb Baddorf > >I've come up with a new idea that might keep me cool. >It's not period, but if it works, I'll continue it! > > > >I'm already in the habit of dropping an ice cube >down my front occasionally. Heck, my corset is >already wet and sweaty -- a little good clean >ice water won't hurt it. With this new concept, >the water ought to stay in the bag. I hope. > >After 8/1 I'll know if they did any good! >I wonder if I can patent this ..... ;-) > >Deb > >Deb Baddorf http://www.inil.com/users/baddorf > My husband has an idea. How about hollow aluminium with coolant in it? He works with metal for a living. I will have to 'hint' that I need one made and see if he can come up with one. Deb and I can be the testers! Michelle > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 00:24:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA10318 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 00:24:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26935; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:37:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00961 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:35:21 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (root@lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net [209.165.6.246]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA00955 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:35:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from raiden.lightspeed.net (raiden.lightspeed.net [209.165.6.245]) by lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12166 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gunsafes (209-165-58-44.lightspeed.net [209.165.58.44]) by raiden.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17585 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <004101bed728$db31f2e0$744efea9@gunsafes> From: "Michelle" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Men's Elizabethan doublet pattern? Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:36:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Michelle" -----Original Message----- From: KKlocko@aol.com To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sunday, July 25, 1999 8:02 AM Subject: H-COST: Men's Elizabethan doublet pattern? > >-Poster: KKlocko@aol.com > >Could anyone recommend a men's Elizabethan doublet pattern? I've seen a lot >in various catalogs, but after a horrible experience with a Period patterns >pattern, I'd rather get what other people think before randomly buying one! >Thanks! > I am sorry if you have already shared this horrifying experience but, could you tell me about what happened with the pattern? My husband wants a jacket/dublet to use with his kilt and I want to not make the same mistakes. (We do Ren fairs. Tudor) Michelle __________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 00:46:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA10640 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 00:46:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA27662; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:46:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01594 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:44:31 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01587 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:44:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from home.com ([24.0.170.52]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990726054426.EIXI17489.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@home.com> for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:44:26 -0700 Message-ID: <379BF40D.2BD2C9A4@home.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:37:17 -0700 From: Russell Hedges Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors References: <002701bed727$ea044f80$744efea9@gunsafes> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Russell Hedges A trick used in film processing, is to make ice that won't dilute your chemicals when it melts. 35mm film cans (plasitcs?), the little plastic cans the film comes in. Fill them two thirds full of water, snap the caps on and put them in the freezer. You can get them free from most photo labs, they get so many and just throw them away. You can use them anywhere you would use ice. And re-use thme over and over. Russell _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 00:51:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA10782 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 00:51:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA28518; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:58:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA02617 for h-costume-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:56:45 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mongoose.slip.net (mongoose.slip.net [207.171.193.14]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA02610 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 23:56:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [207.171.230.131] (helo=default) by mongoose.slip.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #4) id 118dkg-0000MP-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:56:43 -0700 X-Sender: cjcannon@pop.slip.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:56:44 -0700 To: h-costume@indra.com From: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors In-Reply-To: <379BF40D.2BD2C9A4@home.com> References: <002701bed727$ea044f80$744efea9@gunsafes> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Carol J. Bell Cannon" At 10:37 PM 7/25/99 -0700, you wrote: -Poster: Russell Hedges ... ... 35mm film cans (plasitcs?), the little plastic >cans the film comes in. --Russell Thank you for the tip, Russell. To think, I've used them to hold quarters in... Carol _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 07:01:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA16991 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:01:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA17612; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 06:15:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA13346 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 06:13:16 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de (mail.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.4.15]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA13334 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 06:13:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from coal.bg.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.43.192]) by mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de with smtp (EXIM-3.02) for id 118jcq-00015S-00; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:13:00 +0200 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990726141156.0097f6f0@130.149.12.212> X-Sender: barbara@130.149.12.212 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:11:56 +0200 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: Barbara Maren Winkler Subject: Re: H-COST: 15th century ponderings In-Reply-To: <199907232302.RAA20610@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Barbara Maren Winkler >- -Poster: "Jessica Wilbur" > >I found the citation for the second picture. It is: ... at http://ps.theatre.tulane.edu/Period.Styles/Costumes/text/Late.Gothic/CH17.html >Jean Fouquet >Frontispiece, THE DEBATE OF VIRTUE AND FORTUNE, c. 1460 >Public Library, Leningrad > >And beneath that: > >"A diagonally striped (rayed) gown. There is a sense of gold threads woven through all the >fabrics. " > >So yes, the gown does look allegorical/fantastic. I would guess that the woman in the >striped dress is Fortune, since there is a wheel behind her. I wonder if the stripes have any >significance... To me, the image looks strongly allegorical and not in favor of Fortune. Fortune stands on bare rock, Virtue on green grass. Behind Fortune, there are the ruins of a city; in the background of Virtue, there are strong white towers and a lake. On Virtue's side, there is a green tree, on Fortune's side, the tree is withered. And, the judge between both of them leans towards Virtue. So, I'd say the image is a moral allegory, and Fortune's dress is striped in many colors (diagonally: at a (downward) angle) to symbolize her changing nature which in the end leads to decay. Virtue's gown is blue with gold... the color of the sky, and Virgin Mary. Neither dress color needs to have anything to do with actual colors worn at the time. -- Barbara Maren Winkler barbara@math.tu-berlin.de _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 07:56:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA17780 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:56:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA21128; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:11:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA18659 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:08:52 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA18654 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:08:51 -0600 (MDT) From: Marionetta@aol.com Received: from Marionetta@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6MUUa21301 (8029) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:03:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <52788bdc.24cdb6ab@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:03:39 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Marionetta@aol.com I used to go up to Ashland, Oregon once a year to see plays at the Shakespeare festival there. There were always several plays running outdoors in the heat of summer. I remember hearing on the backstage tour that some of the rather hot costumes (like the heavily padded Falstaff) had pockets sewn into them for blue ice packs to be put into to keep the actors from getting too hot...so there's actually precedent within the theatrical costuming circles. Cheers, Loren Dearborn marionetta@aol.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 09:33:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA19487 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:33:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA04055; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:47:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA04169 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:44:44 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail5.doit.wisc.edu (mail5.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.104.215]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA04154 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:44:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [144.92.15.219] by mail5.doit.wisc.edu id JAA17928 (8.9.1/50); Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:44:41 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19990723185419.3dbfb2ae@mail2.quiknet.com> References: <2.2.16.19990723185419.3dbfb2ae@mail2.quiknet.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:50:56 -0600 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Barbara Wolff Subject: Re: H-COST: White wedding dresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Barbara Wolff Pls excuse what is probably an ihnorant question, but what is candelight? Thanks in advance -- Barbara in Madison _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 10:41:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA20683 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:41:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17013; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:55:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA20418 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:52:49 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20413 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:52:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costume (207-172-86-68.s68.tnt6.rcm.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.86.68]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA23193 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:52:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <013e01bed77e$b5c21840$4456accf@costume> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: White wedding dresses Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:51:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" >Pls excuse what is probably an ihnorant question, but what is >candelight? Thanks in advance -- Barbara in Madison Candlelight is the name of a color, off-whitish with a hint of yellow. It really looks antique. My wedding gown was this color. Later... Penny http://www.costumegallery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 10:55:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA20912 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:55:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19268; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:09:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA23761 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:06:53 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail5.doit.wisc.edu (mail5.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.104.215]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23752 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:06:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [144.92.15.219] by mail5.doit.wisc.edu id LAA10646 (8.9.1/50); Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:06:50 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <013e01bed77e$b5c21840$4456accf@costume> References: <013e01bed77e$b5c21840$4456accf@costume> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:13:04 -0600 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Barbara Wolff Subject: Re: H-COST: White wedding dresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Barbara Wolff Sounds absolutely lovely, Penny -- is the naterial translucent, or a color? Thanks, Barbara in Madison _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 11:35:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21615 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:35:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25047; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:49:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03083 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:46:48 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03066 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:46:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sue.computercrafters.com (pm3frd1-68-102.intrepid.net [206.102.68.102]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA31670 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:46:44 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990726124932.008234b0@intrepid.net> X-Sender: sshatto@intrepid.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:49:32 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Sue Shatto Subject: H-COST: Mc Cardell gloves Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Sue Shatto Dear List, I can get Claire Mc Cardell gloves. They are never-worn in the bag that has the name and logo. There is red and white large checked gingham and black and white smaller checked gingham. The gingham is on the outside and white on the palm side.They are all the same size, which is 6 1/2.If I have enough orders I can get them for $18 each. Let me know if interested and how many pairs you would like. I will wait until Wednesday evening to see if I have enough orders to make it worthwhile. Cordially, Sue Shatto Sue@VictorianMillinery.com http://www.VictorianMillinery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 12:54:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA01959 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:54:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07125; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:05:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19814 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:03:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mx2.io.com (IDENT:root@mx2.io.com [199.170.88.18]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19788 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:03:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eris.io.com (IDENT:ches@eris.io.com [199.170.88.11]) by mx2.io.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19635 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:03:09 -0500 Received: from localhost (ches@localhost) by eris.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA27574 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:03:08 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: eris.io.com: ches owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:03:08 -0500 (CDT) From: ches To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Mc Cardell gloves In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990726124932.008234b0@intrepid.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: ches can you tell us more about who mccardell is and why the gloves are special? :) Sincerely, F. Havas ches@io.com On Mon, 26 Jul 1999, Sue Shatto wrote: > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:49:32 -0400 > From: Sue Shatto > Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Mc Cardell gloves > > > -Poster: Sue Shatto > > Dear List, > > I can get Claire Mc Cardell gloves. They are never-worn in the bag that > has the name and logo. There is red and white large checked gingham and > black and white smaller checked gingham. The gingham is on the outside > and white on the palm side.They are all the same size, which is 6 1/2.If > I have enough orders I can get them for $18 each. Let me know if > interested and how many pairs you would like. I will wait until > Wednesday evening to see if I have enough orders to make it > worthwhile. > > > > > > Cordially, > > > Sue Shatto > > > Sue@VictorianMillinery.com > > http://www.VictorianMillinery.com > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 13:01:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02132 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:01:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08286; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:13:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA21733 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:11:33 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from dias.net (dias.net [199.170.176.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21719 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:11:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (ophelia@localhost) by dias.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA09169 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:13:59 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ophelia@dias.net) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:13:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "Sara J. Davitt" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors In-Reply-To: <379BF40D.2BD2C9A4@home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Sara J. Davitt" Hi. this is a little trick that me and little sister used to play by the pool... take a whome bunch of Mr., Freezies icicle pops, and eat them. then. take some mud (dispensed in a a contraption much like a cake decorator) and put them into the clean empty Mr. Freezie tubes. tie off with string, or rubber bands. then Re- Freeze. and drop down the shirt of your local little sister. the mud keeps the ice frozen longer, for those hardcore chases across the yard. I do suspect that these could be tied into a farthengale or bodice (boning?) or something... Also... I saw Kama sutra last night, and at one point she lifts her skirt and stands over an incense pot to 'freshen herself'... Maybe someone could get some dry ice, and if not moving around too much, stand over a pot of dry ice, for relief. keepin' cool, Sarahj **2Y's**UR**2Y's**UB**IC**UR**2Y's**4Me** _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 13:42:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02844 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:42:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14782; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:53:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29963 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:51:18 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from zeus.directcon.net (zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29951 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:51:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r4p41.directcon.net [206.170.184.90]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA12533 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907261850.LAA12533@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: H-COST:Where is the list? Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson Where oh where is the web page that has information on subscribing to this list? Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 13:47:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02868 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:47:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15820; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:57:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA00843 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:55:24 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from pony.cleanweb.net (cw40.cleanweb.net [208.145.1.150]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA00834 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:55:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 19107 invoked from network); 26 Jul 1999 20:56:29 -0000 Received: from ws27.tpcgi.com (HELO tpcgi.com) (208.135.251.61) by cw40.cleanweb.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 1999 20:56:29 -0000 Message-ID: <379CB035.18213FC2@tpcgi.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:46:52 -0500 From: Paula Hanna X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST:Where is the list? References: <199907261850.LAA12533@zeus.directcon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Paula Hanna It's this list here, Margo. http://lists.ansteorra.org/lists.html --- Paula _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 14:06:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA03253 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:06:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19077; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:18:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA05145 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:16:06 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from exodus.phosphor-ink.com (IDENT:root@exodus.phosphor-ink.com [207.48.145.101] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05137 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:16:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lrh-g5116 (wcds6.orh.usace.army.mil [155.80.20.86]) by exodus.phosphor-ink.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA07390 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:15:50 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990726151902.008fe960@mail.ezwv.com> X-Sender: ttheisen@mail.ezwv.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:19:02 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Terry Theisen Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors In-Reply-To: References: <379BF40D.2BD2C9A4@home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Terry Theisen >Also... I saw Kama sutra last night, and at one point she lifts her skirt >and stands over an incense pot to 'freshen herself'... Maybe someone could >get some dry ice, and if not moving around too much, stand over a pot >of dry ice, for relief. > Thank you. I now have a vision of a woman in full elizabethan, standing next to the Sausage-on-a-Stick stand with wisps of smoke creeping from beneath her skirt. Well, it would increase air circulation by keeping people as far from her as possible. Gen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 14:23:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA03716 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:23:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21896; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:35:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA08755 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:33:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from deliverator.io.com (root@deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08746 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:33:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eris.io.com (IDENT:ches@eris.io.com [199.170.88.11]) by deliverator.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08209 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:33:32 -0500 Received: from localhost (ches@localhost) by eris.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA31836 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:33:31 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: eris.io.com: ches owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:33:31 -0500 (CDT) From: ches To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: STOP! Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990726151902.008fe960@mail.ezwv.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: ches Ok folks this has gotten into that realm of TOO MUCH INFORMATION! Take there rest of this part of the thread to private mail. Leave the rest of it here under a new heading! :) Sincerely, F. Havas ches@io.com On Mon, 26 Jul 1999, Terry Theisen wrote: > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:19:02 -0400 > From: Terry Theisen > Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors > > > -Poster: Terry Theisen > > >Also... I saw Kama sutra last night, and at one point she lifts her skirt > >and stands over an incense pot to 'freshen herself'... Maybe someone could > >get some dry ice, and if not moving around too much, stand over a pot > >of dry ice, for relief. > > > Thank you. I now have a vision of a woman in full elizabethan, standing > next to the Sausage-on-a-Stick stand with wisps of smoke creeping from > beneath her skirt. Well, it would increase air circulation by keeping > people as far from her as possible. > > Gen > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 14:43:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA04205 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:43:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26101; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:55:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12634 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:51:59 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12626 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:51:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costume (207-172-61-102.s102.tnt1.rcm.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.61.102]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA22101 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:51:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001601bed7a0$1f159580$663daccf@costume> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: White wedding dresses Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:50:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Penny Ladnier" Candlelight is a beautiful color, especially for those of use who do not like to wear stark white. If you look at the wedding gowns on this page, http://www.costumegallery.com/dresser.htm the first row second gown is a candlelight color. Then look at the second row second gown, it too, is a candlelight color. The dress on the second row fabric is similar to the fabric on my gown. Although the fabric on the second gown feels a whole lot better than my 1970s version, it is Chinese translucent silk from 1902. This fabric is the softest thing you could ever feel. All of us who displayed this gown could not keep our hands off the fabric. Whoever previously owned it, really preserved this gown well. It is in perfect condition. My gown was a silk translucent chiffon overlay with a satin undershirt and bodice. Working on these wedding dresses was my favorite part of my internship. Second best was the photo shoot with the bustle dresses. I think I must be obsessed with gown trains. Later... Penny >Sounds absolutely lovely, Penny -- is the naterial translucent, or a >color? Thanks, Barbara in Madison > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 15:46:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05178 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:46:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07072; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:52:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA27100 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:50:06 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail5.doit.wisc.edu (mail5.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.104.215]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27093 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:50:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [144.92.15.219] by mail5.doit.wisc.edu id PAA13814 (8.9.1/50); Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:50:03 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001601bed7a0$1f159580$663daccf@costume> References: <001601bed7a0$1f159580$663daccf@costume> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:56:19 -0600 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Barbara Wolff Subject: Re: H-COST: White wedding dresses Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Barbara Wolff >Hi Penny -- >The dress on the second row fabric is similar to the >fabric on my gown. Although the fabric on the second gown feels a whole lot >better than my 1970s version, it is Chinese translucent silk from 1902. Exquisite! I can just imagine how the fabric must be to the touch, and how wonderful your own dress must be! (Whoever said A pix is worth 1,000 words surely was on to something, no?) Thanks for the insight -- Barbara in Madison _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 15:58:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05379 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:58:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10379; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:10:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA01147 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:08:21 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (root@lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net [209.165.6.246]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01140 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:08:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from raiden.lightspeed.net (raiden.lightspeed.net [209.165.6.245]) by lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA28502 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gunsafes (209-165-58-65.lightspeed.net [209.165.58.65]) by raiden.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07363 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000601bed7ab$3057ea40$65f8fea9@gunsafes> From: "Michelle" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: pattern out of print Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:09:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Michelle" -----Original Message----- From: Hope H. Dunlap To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Friday, July 23, 1999 11:29 AM Subject: RE: H-COST: pattern out of print Hope, >Thank you for your help in locating this pattern for me. I called Amazon. The also said that it was no longer in print. They are out of stock too. Are there any other catalogs out there that may still have one? The people at Amazon were much nicer about it than Alter Years, as they provided me with an address to write the museum. (Alter Years said they didn't know what it was when I asked them for the address.) Michelle >-Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > >Amazon Drygoods of Davenport Iowa has the Escape the >Revolution dress pictured in their current catalogue, maybe >still available at > >info@amazondrygoods.com >1-319-322-4138 Questions >1-319-322-6800 Business >1-800-798-7979 Orders >1-319-322-4003 Fax > >They keep things available until their inventory runs out. > >Hope H. Dunlap > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-h-costume@indra.com >[mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Michelle >Sent: Monday, July 19, 1999 5:16 PM >To: costume list >Subject: H-COST: pattern out of print > > >In the catalog I meantioned earlier, there was a pattern I >wanted a copy of. It was put together by a museum out of >London (unfortunately, I don't know which one). The >pattern, which is actually supposed to be a lot of >information, along with a scale model of the dress, is no >longer in print. They were calling it the "Escape the >Revolution" dress. Circa the French Revolution. A picture >of the back side of it is in the catalog. > Does anyone have this pattern? I am dying to see what >the front looks like and would like to purchase a copy. > > Michelle > > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 16:16:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05727 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:16:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14020; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:28:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA05446 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:26:23 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05438 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:26:21 -0600 (MDT) From: seamstrix@juno.com Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id EGGYCUTU; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:24:44 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com Cc: h-costume@indra.com Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:01:19 -0500 Subject: Re: H-COST: Hot reenactors Message-ID: <19990726.162047.-286635.0.seamstrix@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,12-13 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: seamstrix@juno.com On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 02:23:31 -0400 (EDT) Carol Mitchell >Your idea sounds great. We were at the RennFaire all day today-wish >we'd had something like it. Well Carol, and everyone, at Bristol Faire this weekend, the court actually did have frozen Freezer Pops (the long, thin, kind in the plastic) in our clothing at various points. The only problem being that we were so hot that we'd melt them in a matter of minutes. If you took them out at just the right point tho, they were melted but still cool and you could drink them for extra liquid before going and getting another one. Both the ladies and the gentlemen were using them in this manner. Karen _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 16:29:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05907 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:29:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16799; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:41:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA08091 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:38:58 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08080 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:38:57 -0600 (MDT) From: RobesOf@aol.com Received: from RobesOf@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6KYQa22454 (399) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:36:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:36:22 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: pattern out of print To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com << The also said that it was no longer in print. They are out of stock too. Are there any other catalogs out there that may still have one? >> What pattern are you referring to? Maybe I can help. Erica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 17:51:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA07462 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:51:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA02047; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:03:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA24546 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:00:55 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24534 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:00:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sue.computercrafters.com (pm3frd1-68-98.intrepid.net [206.102.68.98]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA12309 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:00:46 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990726190334.007fe1e0@intrepid.net> X-Sender: sshatto@intrepid.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:03:34 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Sue Shatto Subject: Re: H-COST: Mc Cardell gloves In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990726124932.008234b0@intrepid.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Sue Shatto Ches, Someone may be more able to speak of Claire Mc Cardell than me. (I have no training in the fashion industry) But here goes my meeger attempt. (Also, I am on the Board of Directors for our Historical Society and claire grew up and went to college in Frederick.) The Maryland Historical Society has or had? a terrific show on her this year. Also I attended the special Mc Cardell introspective at the FIT in NY. a few years ago. She was (and is) considered the first designer that took comfort and function into account in her designs for women. Lots of playsuits, bathing suits, sarong treatments, circular skirts,atheletic wear (such as ski clothing). Also sunglasses, shoes, purses, an apron w/ detachable oven mitts, etc. There is really nice book that just came out this year. You can find it in your library. She died in the 50's of cancer. She was very prolific for such a short life. I hope someone will help me out here... I don't know too much more to tell you. At 01:03 PM 7/26/99 -0500, you wrote: > >-Poster: ches > >can you tell us more about who mccardell is and why the gloves are >special? :) > >Sincerely, >F. Havas >ches@io.com > >On Mon, 26 Jul 1999, Sue Shatto wrote: > >> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:49:32 -0400 >> From: Sue Shatto >> Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com >> To: h-costume@indra.com >> Subject: H-COST: Mc Cardell gloves >> >> >> -Poster: Sue Shatto >> >> Dear List, >> >> I can get Claire Mc Cardell gloves. They are never-worn in the bag that >> has the name and logo. There is red and white large checked gingham and >> black and white smaller checked gingham. The gingham is on the outside >> and white on the palm side.They are all the same size, which is 6 1/2.If >> I have enough orders I can get them for $18 each. Let me know if >> interested and how many pairs you would like. I will wait until >> Wednesday evening to see if I have enough orders to make it >> worthwhile. >> >> >> >> >> >> Cordially, >> >> >> Sue Shatto >> >> >> Sue@VictorianMillinery.com >> >> http://www.VictorianMillinery.com >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com >> with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > Cordially, Sue Shatto Sue@VictorianMillinery.com http://www.VictorianMillinery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 18:21:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA07931 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:21:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06395; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:33:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA27243 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:15:33 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27218 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:15:27 -0600 (MDT) From: tylerweiss@excite.com Received: from almond.excite.com ([198.3.99.227]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990726231454.JJGQ296.kuku@almond.excite.com> for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:14:54 -0700 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Subject: H-COST: loking for pattern help Message-Id: <933030893.24089.884@excite.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:14:53 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 198.151.12.16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: tylerweiss@excite.com > > Michelle > > You can use them anywhere you would use ice. And re-use thme over and > over. > I'm looking for a pattern for a ladies 1890's Norfolk shooting jacet. Can any onegive me any advic where to find one. Thanks oodles Tyler ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 19:10:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA08910 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:10:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12316; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:22:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA07752 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:18:44 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from web601.yahoomail.com (web1103.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.123]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA07742 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:18:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19990727001903.16214.rocketmail@web601.yahoomail.com> Received: from [38.226.171.42] by web1103.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:19:03 EDT Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:19:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Carol Mitchell Subject: Re: H-COST:Where is the list? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Carol Mitchell --- Margo Anderson wrote: > > -Poster: Margo Anderson > > Where oh where is the web page that has information > on subscribing to this list? > > Margo > > Use the same address as for unsubscribing, which is sent with each message. Carol Mitchell > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME >
Carol Mitchell President Chicagoland Costumer's Guild
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_________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 19:17:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA08936 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:17:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14304; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:29:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA08714 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:26:05 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from web1105.mail.yahoo.com (web1105.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.125]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA08707 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:26:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19990727002525.4290.rocketmail@web1105.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [38.226.171.42] by web1105.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:25:25 EDT Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:25:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Carol Mitchell Subject: Re: H-COST: Mc Cardell gloves To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Carol Mitchell What years were those gloves popular? Carol Mitchell - === Carol Mitchell President Chicagoland Costumer's Guild _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 22:10:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA11823 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:10:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06080; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:21:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA03535 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:18:00 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA03530 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:17:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sue.computercrafters.com (pm3frd1-68-88.intrepid.net [206.102.68.88]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA28744 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:17:56 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990726232045.007f7480@intrepid.net> X-Sender: sshatto@intrepid.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:20:45 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Sue Shatto Subject: Re: H-COST: Mc Cardell gloves In-Reply-To: <19990727002525.4290.rocketmail@web1105.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Sue Shatto I imagine they were late 40's, possibly early 50's. At 08:25 PM 7/26/99 -0400, you wrote: > >-Poster: Carol Mitchell > > >What years were those gloves popular? >Carol Mitchell >- >=== >Carol Mitchell President Chicagoland Costumer's Guild >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > Cordially, Sue Shatto Sue@VictorianMillinery.com http://www.VictorianMillinery.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Mon Jul 26 22:21:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA12108 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:21:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA07125; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:33:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA05517 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:31:24 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from zeus.directcon.net (zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05508 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:31:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r9p12.directcon.net [206.170.184.111]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA11627 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907270330.UAA11627@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: H-COST:Where is the list? Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: RO -Poster: Margo Anderson >> >> Use the same address as for unsubscribing, which is sent with each message. >Carol Mitchell > Right, I know that will work. I should have been more clear: I was looking for a Web page to which I could link that would have the various commands such as subscribe, subscribe digest, unsubscribe, etc, along with a description of the list and its mission, guidleines, charter, or what have you. Is this anywhere on the Web? Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 27 00:18:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA14069 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:18:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA17820; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:28:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA19256 for h-costume-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:25:41 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu10.smtp.email.msn.com [207.46.181.60]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19245 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:25:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.206 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:25:08 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: pattern out of print Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 01:30:56 -0400 Message-ID: <000801bed7f1$972f4420$bf0bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-Reply-To: <000601bed7ab$3057ea40$65f8fea9@gunsafes> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" If someone is selling an old copy of it on the Web, then doing a search on www.metacrawler.com might turn it up. Use the actual name on the pattern package. Other than that , I really dont know. The front was extremely plain, disapointing as I remember. You might be able to recreate it--the back wasn't that hard--using similar dress in a book like Arnold's patterns of fashion or somesuch. Good luck. (I liked it too, but never bought it.) Hope H. Dunlap > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Michelle > Sent: Monday, July 26, 1999 5:10 PM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: H-COST: pattern out of print > > > > -Poster: "Michelle" > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hope H. Dunlap > To: h-costume@indra.com > Date: Friday, July 23, 1999 11:29 AM > Subject: RE: H-COST: pattern out of print > > > Hope, > >Thank you for your help in locating this pattern for me. > I called Amazon. The also said that it was no longer > in print. They > are out of stock too. Are there any other catalogs out there > that may still > have one? > The people at Amazon were much nicer about it than Alter > Years, as they > provided me with an address to write the museum. (Alter Years > said they > didn't know what it was when I asked them for the address.) > > Michelle > >-Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > > > >Amazon Drygoods of Davenport Iowa has the Escape the > >Revolution dress pictured in their current catalogue, maybe > >still available at > > > >info@amazondrygoods.com > >1-319-322-4138 Questions > >1-319-322-6800 Business > >1-800-798-7979 Orders > >1-319-322-4003 Fax > > > >They keep things available until their inventory runs out. > > > >Hope H. Dunlap > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-h-costume@indra.com > >[mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On Behalf Of Michelle > >Sent: Monday, July 19, 1999 5:16 PM > >To: costume list > >Subject: H-COST: pattern out of print > > > > > >In the catalog I meantioned earlier, there was a pattern I > >wanted a copy of. It was put together by a museum out of > >London (unfortunately, I don't know which one). The > >pattern, which is actually supposed to be a lot of > >information, along with a scale model of the dress, is no > >longer in print. They were calling it the "Escape the > >Revolution" dress. Circa the French Revolution. A picture > >of the back side of it is in the catalog. > > Does anyone have this pattern? I am dying to see what > >the front looks like and would like to purchase a copy. > > > > Michelle > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 27 01:05:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA15002 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 01:05:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA20536; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:17:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24529 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:14:42 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA24518 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:14:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-70-91.irvn11.pacbell.net [206.170.70.91]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA17872 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <379C6ED9.F446322F@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:21:18 +0000 From: Dietmar Organization: Completely Disorganized X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04C-PBI-NC404 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Re: Hot reenactors References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Dietmar Greetings, Sarahj wrote: > Maybe someone could get some dry ice, and if not moving around > too much, stand over a pot of dry ice, for relief. Heat rises and cold sinks, so this wouldn't be too effective. However, you could make a 'cold shower' ( and patent pending ;-) by putting the tub of ice on an overhead stand and making a round shower curtain arrangement to keep the cool in. Simply step in and let the cool shower down on you. Just a thought, Dietmar "Victory or Defeat rests in God's hands; over Honor, we ourselves are Lord and Master." _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 27 01:09:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA15057 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 01:09:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA20782; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:21:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA24914 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:19:37 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (root@lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net [209.165.6.246]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA24907 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:19:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from raiden.lightspeed.net (raiden.lightspeed.net [209.165.6.245]) by lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA29796 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gunsafes (209-165-57-226.lightspeed.net [209.165.57.226]) by raiden.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA05050 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:19:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <004f01bed7f8$38a8cb40$74befea9@gunsafes> From: "Michelle" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: pattern out of print Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:21:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Michelle" -----Original Message----- From: RobesOf@aol.com To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Monday, July 26, 1999 3:03 PM Subject: Re: H-COST: pattern out of print > Erica, Oops, I thought it was in the message already from the previous posts. Sorry. I am looking for a pattern, actually a packet of info with a pattern for blowing up, not a full size. It was put out by a museum in Europe. They are calling it the 'Escape the Revolution' dress. It went out of print a few years ago, so I have been told. Wish I had known that then! I will try the link for a used copy as Hope suggested. I didn't even know that existed. I am new to this web thing. Thank you all for your help and ideas. Michelle >-Poster: RobesOf@aol.com > ><< The also said that it was no longer in print. They > are out of stock too. Are there any other catalogs out there that may still > have one? >> > >What pattern are you referring to? Maybe I can help. > >Erica > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 27 03:36:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA17767 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 03:36:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA29859; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 02:49:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA07383 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 02:47:02 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.6.11]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA07371 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 02:46:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) id <01JE1ZJGPPGW00DF3K@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:52:56 BST Received: from mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk (mdx-ref1.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.57.8]) by mdx.ac.uk (PMDF V5.2-32 #37790) with ESMTP id <01JE1ZJFCNJ200EMG4@mdx.ac.uk> for h-costume-digest@indra.com; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:52:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from MDX-REF1/SpoolDir by mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk (Mercury 1.44); Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:46:44 +1100 Received: from SpoolDir by MDX-REF1 (Mercury 1.44); Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:46:36 +1100 Received: from bg_lib_07475 (158.94.53.126) by mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk (Mercury 1.44); Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:46:31 +1100 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:46:31 +0000 (GMT) From: teddy1 Subject: H-COST: 15thC diagonal stripes (WAS: 15thC ponderings) In-reply-to: <199907261952.NAA12743@net.indra.com> To: h-costume-digest@indra.com Message-id: <9C1B77F4227@mdx-ref1.nw.mdx.ac.uk> Organization: Middlesex University MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: teddy1 > > Frontispiece, THE DEBATE OF VIRTUE AND FORTUNE, c. 1460 > > Public Library, Leningrad > > > > And beneath that: > > > > "A diagonally striped (rayed) gown. There is a sense of gold threads > > woven through all the fabrics. " > > > > So yes, the gown does look allegorical/fantastic. I would guess > > that the woman in the striped dress is Fortune, since there is a > > wheel behind her. I wonder if the stripes have any significance... > > So, I'd say the image is a moral allegory, and Fortune's dress is striped > in many colors (diagonally: at a (downward) angle) to symbolize her > changing nature which in the end leads to decay. Virtue's gown is blue > with gold... the color of the sky, and Virgin Mary. > > Neither dress color needs to have anything to do with actual colors worn > at the time. I think somebody was asking about the diagonal stripes (in an earlier post that I didn't get around to replying to) being a period (15thC) thing and if they were woven diagonally or if the gown would be bias cut....? I don't know about plain stripes, but there's a chasuble in the Victoria and Albert Museum (14th or early 15th century I think - I'm working from memory of seeing it once, several years ago) that is in a brocade with a very elaborate pattern of birds and flowers woven into it in diagonal stripes, the stripes angle down from left to right. Light blue background, main pattern woven in the same colour (outline of birds and flowers) with the flowers themselves in several different colours. So, diagonal stripes of sorts *were* woven and used around that period. Also, I'm fairly certain I have noticed brocades in other paintings that are patterned in diagonals.... not that I could tell you which ones, offhand. Hope this helps Teddy (Trustworthy Evil-Bunny of Destiny, part-time Knave and Creature of air and darkness, apparently!) _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 27 14:39:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA30812 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:39:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14711; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:51:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA04177 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:48:37 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp5.jps.net (smtp5.jps.net [209.63.224.55]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04165 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:48:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [209.63.113.172] (209-63-113-172.sea.jps.net [209.63.113.172]) by smtp5.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA14560 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907271948.MAA14560@smtp5.jps.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.0c (197) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:50:13 -0700 Subject: H-COST: New Domain From: "R.L. Shep" To: "h-costume" Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: RO -Poster: "R.L. Shep" Fred Struthers has set up a domain name for our website. it is www.rlshep.com ~!~ R.L.Shep http://www.rlshep.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 27 18:34:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA05291 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:34:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16357; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:48:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA11735 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:45:42 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11713 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:45:38 -0600 (MDT) From: JPMcTeer@aol.com Received: from JPMcTeer@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.25) id 6WVPa22454 (3924) for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:44:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9576df50.24cf9e77@aol.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:44:55 EDT Subject: H-COST: electric dress form? To: h-costume-digest@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: JPMcTeer@aol.com recently someone mentioned <> Does anyone know about these hot and cold dress forms? I deal with corsets of different periods and this might be very useful. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 27 18:36:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA05338 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:36:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16354; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:48:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA11788 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:45:52 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11773 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:45:51 -0600 (MDT) From: JPMcTeer@aol.com Received: from JPMcTeer@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id 6MHGa01828 (3924) for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:45:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:45:01 EDT Subject: H-COST: leftover copyright thread To: h-costume-digest@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: JPMcTeer@aol.com In the great copyright debate, someone asked specifically about using slides in lecture programs, but I may have missed the answer. I also do lecture programs using slides I have taken at museums. It would slow me down unbearably to mention the source of each image in a three-hour lecture, although I do have records of the sources the images come from. I only speak at schools and non-profit organizations. What problems should I be aware of? I do not make copies of my slides or lend them out to others. Can I give them to a school when I stop giving lectures? Thanks for any insights, Joan _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 27 20:44:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA09701 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:44:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA27749; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:56:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA29329 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:54:08 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from proxy3.ba.best.com (root@proxy3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.14]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA29324 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:54:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from best.com (lavolta.vip.best.com [206.86.95.234]) by proxy3.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.out) with ESMTP id SAA14827 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <379E6294.2E73132B@best.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:53:25 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: leftover copyright thread References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Lavolta Press JPMcTeer@aol.com wrote: > -Poster: JPMcTeer@aol.com > > In the great copyright debate, someone asked specifically about using slides > in lecture programs, but I may have missed the answer. > > I also do lecture programs using slides I have taken at museums. It would > slow me down unbearably to mention the source of each image in a three-hour > lecture, although I do have records of the sources the images come from. I > only speak at schools and non-profit organizations. What problems should I > be aware of? > > I do not make copies of my slides or lend them out to others. Can I give > them to a school when I stop giving lectures? As far as I know, your use of these slides, and how you should credit the museums, depends on the policies of the specific museum. So you need to ask them. Fran --------------------------------------------- Visit our web pages! Books on historic costume and vintage clothes http://www.best.com/~lavolta/index.htm Historic and vintage dance http://www.best.com/~lavolta/dance/index.htm _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Tue Jul 27 21:36:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA11580 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:36:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03532; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:49:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA06796 for h-costume-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:46:30 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06783 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:46:28 -0600 (MDT) From: Natekakar@aol.com Received: from Natekakar@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id 6QTQa06268 (4400) for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 22:45:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9c294ff3.24cfc8d6@aol.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 22:45:42 EDT Subject: H-COST: would like to subscribe To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Natekakar@aol.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 28 03:24:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA22897 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 03:24:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA02226; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 02:38:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA21538 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 02:36:02 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: (from eliz@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA21532; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 02:36:01 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 02:36:01 -0600 (MDT) From: Elizabeth Lear Message-Id: <199907280836.CAA21532@net.indra.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST:Where is the list? Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Elizabeth Lear Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA31244 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:11:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA13078; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 06:25:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA27936 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 06:23:28 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA27924 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 06:23:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.217.218.106] (ell122.acadia.net [205.217.218.106]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA20814 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:23:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: pulliam@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:24:27 -0500 To: h-costume-digest@indra.com From: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) Subject: H-COST: book for sale Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: pulliam@acadia.net (Deborah Pulliam) For sale: Autobiography and Correspondence of Mrs. Delany, revised from Lady Llanover's Edition, and edited by Sarah Chauncey Woolsey. Two volumes, Boston: Roberts Brothers, 1880. Excellent condition. E-mail me *privately* for more details, including price. Deborah For those of you not familiar with her, Mrs. Delany was born in 1700 to the minor aristocracy of England, and lived a very long and active life. She married several times, was well known at the English court, and was an intimate of Queen Charlotte (wife of George III). She was also well known for her handwork, including knotting. She also talks about clothing and fabrics in many of her letters, and describes what was worn at various court functions, including coronations. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 28 07:34:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA32147 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:34:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA14925; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 06:48:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA00670 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 06:46:01 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from web803.mail.yahoo.com (web803.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.63]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA00662 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 06:45:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19990728125002.7798.rocketmail@web803.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.247.217.34] by web803.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 05:50:02 PDT Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 05:50:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Sarah Toney Subject: H-COST: Embroidery To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Sarah Toney I am looking for a good resource book on medieval embroidery... both patterns and "how-to"... does anyone have any suggestions on what book I should get? Thanks! Sarah _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 28 15:01:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01212 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:01:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24344; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:11:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA04950 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:08:57 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail.zebra.net (mail.zebra.net [209.12.13.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04936 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:08:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zebra.net ([209.12.15.181]) by mail.zebra.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:05:16 -0500 Message-ID: <379F7E9F.4D59C0F7@zebra.net> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:05:19 -0700 From: Meribeth McCombs X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Strange Living History Question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Meribeth McCombs Hello again everyone... Now that I've mostly recovered from having my baby, I've run into a small problem. How does one conceal a diaper bag at a living history event where everything else is period? Anyone have ideas for a Civil war era solution? MeriBeth _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 28 15:19:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01788 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:19:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27188; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:30:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA09345 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:28:29 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09331 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:28:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.204 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:27:56 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: Strange Living History Question Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:35:05 -0400 Message-ID: <000e01bed938$e0b66b80$0a0bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <379F7E9F.4D59C0F7@zebra.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" The carpet bag would be the period substitute, and they are still available from some importers of Turkish and mid-eastern rugs. They may be a little expensive and heavy for your purposes. A small wicker suitcase or soft oval folded two-handled basket of some kind might be quite appropriate, too. Even a quarter or eighth bushel fruit/vegetable basket with a cloth over the contents would pass muster. These are readily available from places like Pier I, but check some period plates and drawings for style precision. Immigrants were plentiful at that time, and they carried satchels and bundles in a variety of styles. Hope H. Dunlap > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Meribeth McCombs > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 6:05 PM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Strange Living History Question > > > > -Poster: Meribeth McCombs > > Hello again everyone... > > Now that I've mostly recovered from having my baby, I've run into a > small problem. How does one conceal a diaper bag at a living history > event where everything else is period? Anyone have ideas for a Civil > war era solution? > > MeriBeth > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 28 15:52:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA03283 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:52:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02831; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:04:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA17264 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:02:12 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.tn.home.com [24.2.7.66]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA17245 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:02:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from home.com ([24.1.35.138]) by mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19990728210207.ZARA22986.mail.rdc1.tn.home.com@home.com> for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:02:07 -0700 Message-ID: <379F6FCD.BDE21C74@home.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:02:05 -0500 From: Kat & Kent X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Strange Living History Question References: <379F7E9F.4D59C0F7@zebra.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Kat & Kent When I was hauling babies around the SCA I would put their diapering needs into a cloth bag with a long enough string I could carry it over my shoulder...and Elizabeth Lee Designs carries a sling pattern so you could make a sling using metal or wood circle pieces rather than plastic. Kat _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 28 15:56:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA03407 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:56:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03361; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:08:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA18277 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:05:19 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (root@lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net [209.165.6.246]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA18261 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:05:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from raiden.lightspeed.net (raiden.lightspeed.net [209.165.6.245]) by lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA04848 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gunsafes (209-165-57-247.lightspeed.net [209.165.57.247]) by raiden.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14273 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001501bed93d$21b69980$4b16fea9@gunsafes> From: "Michelle" To: Subject: H-COST: Diaper bags Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:06:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Michelle" When I had my first child and wanted to take her with me to a Ren I ran into this problem too. Having a child makes you go accustom to carrying a lot of stuff. I have a homemade bag. It has a large flap to cover the opening and has no real closure. It's straps are extra long so that you put it over your head as well as a shoulder, this keeps it from falling down while wrestling with the kids. I hope my description is clear enough for you to visualize. A version of this type of bag is pictured on a pattern from Period Patterns. As long as it is from an earlier, not later, time period it is usable, right? I like the carpet bag idea that Hope mentioned but, knowing Pier 1 and those types of places, it sounds very costly. A homemade version may not set you back as far. Those dresses are enough to make you take out loans! Michelle -----Original Message----- From: Meribeth McCombs To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 1:04 PM Subject: H-COST: Strange Living History Question > >-Poster: Meribeth McCombs > >Hello again everyone... > >Now that I've mostly recovered from having my baby, I've run into a >small problem. How does one conceal a diaper bag at a living history >event where everything else is period? Anyone have ideas for a Civil >war era solution? > >MeriBeth > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 28 17:02:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA06105 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:02:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA12902; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:14:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA04046 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:11:52 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04032 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:11:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.4 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:11:20 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: Diaper bags Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 18:18:33 -0400 Message-ID: <001001bed947$516f32e0$0a0bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001501bed93d$21b69980$4b16fea9@gunsafes> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" As with any garment, there is a right look for one's economic station. A Southern lady would have her maid trail, carrying the necessities. A slave would throw the works, including apparatus, toys, and various siblings into her cotton picking sack. A farm wife would carry it in a fruit-picking basket, and a Northern lady would carry it wrapped in brown paper and tied with string like a daily purchase from some town shop. Women who traveled carried a "necessary" bag (while and their trunks followed) and that could be the basis for your carry-all. An immigrant would sew a fabric covering around her bundle of possessions, tie it with rope and hoist it on her back while she carried her infant. In Louisa May Alcott's books, didn't Jo carry a net (string) bag for her purchases? I would want a wooden pushcart, dog-cart, or wicker perambulator to hold both baby and gear! Whatever you choose, you will make a charming picture! Hope H. Dunlap > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Michelle > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 5:07 PM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Diaper bags > > > > -Poster: "Michelle" > > When I had my first child and wanted to take her with me to a > Ren I ran into > this problem too. Having a child makes you go accustom to > carrying a lot of > stuff. > I have a homemade bag. It has a large flap to cover the > opening and has > no real closure. It's straps are extra long so that you put > it over your > head as well as a shoulder, this keeps it from falling down > while wrestling > with the kids. I hope my description is clear enough for you > to visualize. > A version of this type of bag is pictured on a pattern > from Period > Patterns. As long as it is from an earlier, not later, time > period it is > usable, right? > I like the carpet bag idea that Hope mentioned but, > knowing Pier 1 and > those types of places, it sounds very costly. A homemade > version may not > set you back as far. Those dresses are enough to make you > take out loans! > Michelle > -----Original Message----- > From: Meribeth McCombs > To: h-costume@indra.com > Date: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 1:04 PM > Subject: H-COST: Strange Living History Question > > > > > >-Poster: Meribeth McCombs > > > >Hello again everyone... > > > >Now that I've mostly recovered from having my baby, I've run into a > >small problem. How does one conceal a diaper bag at a living history > >event where everything else is period? Anyone have ideas for a Civil > >war era solution? > > > >MeriBeth > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 28 22:03:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA17449 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:03:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18185; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:14:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA21409 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:12:31 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from zeus.directcon.net (zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21404 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:12:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r4p27.directcon.net [206.170.184.76]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA23975 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 20:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 20:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907290311.UAA23975@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: H-COST: Strange Living History Question Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson At 03:05 PM 7/28/99 -0700, you wrote: > >-Poster: Meribeth McCombs > >Hello again everyone... > >Now that I've mostly recovered from having my baby, I've run into a >small problem. How does one conceal a diaper bag at a living history >event where everything else is period? Anyone have ideas for a Civil >war era solution? Ditch the diaper bag and get a large basket. If you're more organized that I was, you'll make a cloth liner for it with lots of little pockets. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 28 22:58:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA18635 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:58:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA24063; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:10:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA01660 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:08:18 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01635 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:08:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from erols.com (207-172-44-191.s191.tnt3.brd.va.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.44.191]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA16341 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 00:09:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <379FBC0D.472E5DCA@erols.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:27:25 -0700 From: "David S. Mallinak" Organization: Red Dragon Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: Sailor suit fly References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "David S. Mallinak" RobesOf@aol.com wrote: > Someone has asked me to make a boy's sailor suit in a man's size. He is > going for accuracy and I have researched and designed an appropriate suit. > The problem is he has mentioned several times about the "fly" and I am afraid > I may not be understanding him. Here is what he wrote: > Is this just a regular fly or is it something different? Does anyone have a > picture or a different explanation for what this gentleman may be looking > for? I am losing my mind with this small detail and want to get it right. > Please help! Sound like a "fall front". (as oppose to a "french front" or modern front closure) Find a copy of "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" by Ellen J. Gehret, chapter 3.2 Breeches pg.125. This will provide patterns and the best instruction on its construction. David S. Mallinak matchlck@erols.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Wed Jul 28 23:01:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA18776 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 23:01:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA24421; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:13:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA02059 for h-costume-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:11:12 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02046 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:11:08 -0600 (MDT) From: AliaClaire@aol.com Received: from AliaClaire@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id 6KRa009412 (550) for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 00:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 00:10:02 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: ACW Diaper Bags To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 15 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: AliaClaire@aol.com For Civil War times, go with a carpetbag from The Carpetbagger. He's expensive, but he's so incredibly researched- and he'll share everything with you if you ask. His bags hold up though rain, sleet, snow, and all the other insane weather we've gone through (and mine still looks good!). And it's authentic as you can get. You can reach him at The Carpetbagger 7805 Mainstreet Middletown, VA 22645 540-869-7732 And I believe there's a 10% discount if you tell him you're a reenactor. -Alison Stacy AliaClaire@aol.com Medina, Ohio _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 29 08:56:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA05437 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:56:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA09547; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:08:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA22993 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:05:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from deliverator.io.com (root@deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA22972 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:05:36 -0600 (MDT) From: ches@io.com Received: from fnord.io.com (IDENT:ches@fnord.io.com [199.170.88.12]) by deliverator.io.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04245; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:05:31 -0500 Received: from localhost (ches@localhost) by fnord.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA16294; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:05:30 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: fnord.io.com: ches owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:05:30 -0500 (CDT) To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME cc: SCA-GARB@LIST.UVM.EDU Subject: H-COST: flaminco dress Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: ches@io.com I do not remember who it was but for the person that is looking for flaminco dress patterns here is a lead. Vogue has a pattern that may fit the bill. Vogue 7644 it is an old pattern number so it may no longer be avaliable but here it is on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=135419461 Sincerely, F. Havas ches@io.com _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 29 09:31:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA06561 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:31:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA13891; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:43:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00308 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:41:42 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA00293 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:41:40 -0600 (MDT) From: Gaelscot@aol.com Received: from Gaelscot@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id 6PBMa28691 (4255) for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:41:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1c9869b9.24d1c1fb@aol.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:40:59 EDT Subject: H-COST: re: candlelight To: h-costume-digest@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Gaelscot@aol.com For my wedding, I wore my mother-in-law's gown. It was a gorgeous satin gown from the 50s, with a vaguely baroque cut. Anyway, it was originally white but had changed to ivory over 30 years. The new veil I bought (an exact match) was candlelight. It's a very soft ivory color, so light that it looks white when it's not next to anything really white. Gail Finke _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 29 09:59:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA07180 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:59:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18102; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:11:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA06590 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:09:20 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06583 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:09:19 -0600 (MDT) From: DELTAYLOR@aol.com Received: from DELTAYLOR@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id 6HNRa01404 (3963) for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:08:36 EDT Subject: H-COST: fabric request To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 24 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: DELTAYLOR@aol.com I would like to find some gingham with one inch checks, color unimportant, to follow the instructions in a new book called "Bodymapping". I want to make a pattern on my body that can then be used to make all kinds of clothing including the Italian Ren dress I have been dreaming about. Dianne in TN _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 29 10:12:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA07625 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:12:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19953; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:25:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA09299 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:22:58 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from pony.cleanweb.net (cw40.cleanweb.net [208.145.1.150]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA09293 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:22:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 13326 invoked from network); 29 Jul 1999 17:23:59 -0000 Received: from ws27.tpcgi.com (HELO tpcgi.com) (208.135.251.61) by cw40.cleanweb.net with SMTP; 29 Jul 1999 17:23:59 -0000 Message-ID: <37A072F0.453A899F@tpcgi.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:29:44 -0500 From: Paula Hanna X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: fabric request References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Paula Hanna I know that over near the interfacing in most cloth stores they have a peylon product that is divided into one inch squares. It's dirt cheap, too. I use it all the time to make patterns from. Maybe this could be of use? Paula _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 29 10:19:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA07742 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:19:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21045; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:31:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA10775 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:29:54 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10765 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:29:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail-out-3.tiac.net (mail-out-3.tiac.net [199.0.65.15]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA16898 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:29:50 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from kdp@tiac.net) Received: from kdp.tiac.net (kdp.tiac.net [206.119.75.41]) by mail-out-3.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12368 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:29:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from kdp@tiac.net) Message-Id: <199907291529.LAA12368@mail-out-3.tiac.net> From: "John Page" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: Strange Living History Question Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:00:23 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "John Page" > How does one conceal a diaper bag at a living history > event where everything else is period? A large picnic basket works, so does a fabric workbag. Ditto a carpet bag. Kristin Page _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 29 10:49:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08548 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:49:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25037; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:01:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA16897 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:59:23 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from plaid.engin.umich.edu (root@plaid.engin.umich.edu [141.213.42.62]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16884 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:59:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (parsla@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by plaid.engin.umich.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA08304 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:59:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:59:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Parsla Liepa To: h-costume@indra.net Subject: H-COST: Copyright Myths Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Parsla Liepa Since the isue of copyrights seems to rear its head on this list time and again, I thought I would post this web page that I found. 10 Big Myths about Copyright Explained http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html Parsla Vita brevis est, saxulum edeste. ***************************************************************************** _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 29 11:34:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA09802 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:34:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02342; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:46:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA27037 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:44:07 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from zeus.directcon.net (zeus.directcon.net [206.170.184.2]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27027 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:44:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from DNYEAQVF (r9p6.directcon.net [206.170.184.105]) by zeus.directcon.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA23782 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907291643.JAA23782@zeus.directcon.net> X-Sender: margo@directcon.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: H-COST: fabric request Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Margo Anderson At 11:08 AM 7/29/99 EDT, you wrote: > >-Poster: DELTAYLOR@aol.com > >I would like to find some gingham with one inch checks, color unimportant, to >follow the instructions in a new book called "Bodymapping". I want to make a >pattern on my body that can then be used to make all kinds of clothing >including the Italian Ren dress I have been dreaming about. >Dianne in TN Where have you looked? Just about any fabric store carries gingham. It's often with the kid's decorating fabrics. If you can't find 1" checks, try 1/4". It works even better, IMHO, because you can make more minute markings and adjustments. Margo _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 29 12:02:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10611 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:02:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08364; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:14:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03452 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:11:18 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03440 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:11:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.201 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:10:46 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: H-COST: RE: E-mail, intage patterns. Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:17:44 -0400 Message-ID: <000701bed9e6$7f4b4f60$e00bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" Dear Rowena, You might want to consider signing up for a free e-mail account at metacrawler, yahoo, or hotmail to name just a few. This is the second time in a year that your server has been kaput for an extended period. Link below to e-bay vintage patterns--very extensive site--click on the vintage patterns link (small) near the top of the page, then bookmark the master site. It's fun! Catch ya later! Love, Hope > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of ches@io.com > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 10:06 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list H-COSTUME > Cc: SCA-GARB@LIST.UVM.EDU > Subject: H-COST: flaminco dress > > > > -Poster: ches@io.com > > I do not remember who it was but for the person that is looking for > flaminco dress patterns here is a lead. > > Vogue has a pattern that may fit the bill. Vogue 7644 it is > an old pattern > number so it may no longer be avaliable but here it is on ebay. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=13541 9461 > > Sincerely, > F. Havas > ches@io.com > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 29 12:31:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA11395 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:31:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13739; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:43:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA10346 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:41:22 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10335 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:41:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [209.63.113.250] (209-63-113-250.sea.jps.net [209.63.113.250]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27211 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907291741.KAA27211@smtp6.jps.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.0c (197) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:43:11 -0700 Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright Myths From: "R.L. Shep" To: h-costume@indra.com Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "R.L. Shep" This is a very interesting discussion on the website mentioned. I urge everyone who has any notion of reproducing something - in terms of printed material - to read it and learn from it. ~!~ R.L.Shep http://www.rlshep.com ---------- >From: Parsla Liepa >To: h-costume@indra.net >Subject: H-COST: Copyright Myths >Date: Thu, Jul 29, 1999, 8:59 AM > > >-Poster: Parsla Liepa > > >Since the isue of copyrights seems to rear its head on this list time and >again, I thought I would post this web page that I found. > >10 Big Myths about Copyright Explained >http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html > > > Parsla > > Vita brevis est, saxulum edeste. >*************************************************************************** ** > > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 29 15:36:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA16371 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:36:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11810; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:48:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16956 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:45:42 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (root@lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net [209.165.6.246]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16942 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:45:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from raiden.lightspeed.net (raiden.lightspeed.net [209.165.6.245]) by lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13257 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gunsafes (209-165-57-115.lightspeed.net [209.165.57.115]) by raiden.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA08937 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002f01beda03$959e7720$eec1fea9@gunsafes> From: "Michelle" To: Subject: Re: H-COST: pattern out of print Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:47:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Michelle" I still haven't managed to track down a copy of the pattern (escape the revolution). Alter Years and Amazon no longer have any in stock. I tried Hope's idea with the internet search and it didn't come up there either. Would everyone be so kind as to keep their eyes and ears open? Please let me know if one surfaces somewhere. Thank you all for your help. Michelle _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 29 15:49:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA16697 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:49:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13508; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:01:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA19429 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:58:33 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from mail1.gmx.net (mail1.gmx.net [194.221.183.61]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA19417 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:58:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 4535 invoked by uid 0); 29 Jul 1999 20:58:28 -0000 Received: from pd4b892d6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (HELO lestat) (212.184.146.214) by mail1.gmx.net with SMTP; 29 Jul 1999 20:58:28 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990729225319.00a562d0@post.strato.de> X-Sender: marquise_de_pompadour@gmx.net@pop.gmx.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:56:35 +0200 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Pompadour Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright Myths In-Reply-To: <199907291741.KAA27211@smtp6.jps.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_6845373==_.ALT" Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Pompadour --=====================_6845373==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:43 29.07.99 -0700, you wrote: >This is a very interesting discussion on the website mentioned. >I urge everyone who has any notion of reproducing something - in terms of >printed material - to read it and learn from it. ye-e-e-s... i couldn't help but think of certain purveyors of historic costume patterns and costumes whose line drawings of the clothes in question look as thought they'd been traced off the drawings in the arnold books... and according to the copyright site, that's obviously a copyright infringement. salut, pompadour --=====================_6845373==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 10:43 29.07.99 -0700, you wrote:

>This is a very interesting discussion on the website mentioned.
>I urge everyone who has any notion of reproducing something - in terms of
>printed material - to read it and learn from it.

ye-e-e-s... i couldn't help but think of certain purveyors of historic costume patterns and costumes whose line drawings of the clothes in question look as thought they'd been traced off the drawings in the arnold books... and according to the copyright site, that's obviously a copyright infringement.

salut,
pompadour --=====================_6845373==_.ALT-- _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 29 16:05:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA17231 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:05:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16090; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:16:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA22892 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:14:27 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from Mail.austin.rr.com (sm2.texas.rr.com [24.93.35.55]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22884 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:14:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from PENNY ([24.93.63.229]) by Mail.austin.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1875.185.18); Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:10:13 -0500 From: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: H-COST: pattern out of print Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:08:49 GMT Organization: The Corner of my Desk Message-ID: <37aec197.113159731@smtp-server.austin.rr.com> References: <002f01beda03$959e7720$eec1fea9@gunsafes> In-Reply-To: <002f01beda03$959e7720$eec1fea9@gunsafes> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id PAA22887 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:47:32 -0700, you wrote: > >-Poster: "Michelle" > >I still haven't managed to track down a copy of the pattern (escape the >revolution). Alter Years and Amazon no longer have any in stock. > I tried Hope's idea with the internet search and it didn't come up there >either. > > Would everyone be so kind as to keep their eyes and ears open? Please >let me know if one surfaces somewhere. > Try Lacis! If it's the same pattern, and I'm pretty sure it is, they have it in their non-illustrated online catalog: SP509 N. SOCIETY: #02 Drsss of Revolution, 1793 14.00 Go to http://www.lacis.com/catalog/catalog.htm click on catalog price list in the upper frame scroll down to patterns in the side menu frame click on 'misc patterns' it's the 4th in the list. You may want to call and ask if they have it in stock and if this is indeed the pattern you are looking for. I have a dim memory of the pattern description from reading the envelope, and I think it is indeed the pattern, or a similar pattern. Good luck. Margery "Do you have any files?" "We're the government, of course we have files." Millenium {*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*} _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 29 16:51:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA18500 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:51:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA22061; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:02:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA01811 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:00:36 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01799 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:00:35 -0600 (MDT) From: RobesOf@aol.com Received: from RobesOf@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id 6MHRa23997 (7808) for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:59:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <508eba36.24d228b2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:59:14 EDT Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright Myths To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com << ye-e-e-s... i couldn't help but think of certain purveyors of historic costume patterns and costumes whose line drawings of the clothes in question look as thought they'd been traced off the drawings in the arnold books... and according to the copyright site, that's obviously a copyright infringement. >> Although, I agree that tracing someone else's art is copyright infringement, I wanted to point out that this article is referring to written works, not art. Art copyrights are a little different. In fact, I will make a trip to the library tonight and post some wonderful excerpts from a book on copyright laws for artists for all on this list. I seem to remember something written about changing the art at least 10% will make it a new work of art, a derivative work (but not the same as mentioned on the website). Also, clothing designs fall into the utilitarian category, in which the designs themselves are not able to be copyrighted. The sketch of the design is copyrighted. Like I said, I will get the specifics for all to see, instead of trying to remember. I admit my memory isn't perfect. Keep an eye out. Erica _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 29 17:44:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA19899 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:44:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29605; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:55:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA12918 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:53:27 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.11]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA12911 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:53:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem116.fred.pol.co.uk ([195.92.7.244] helo=heri) by svr-a-01.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 119z3D-0005H5-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:53:24 +0100 Message-ID: <003201beda15$2e25cc30$f4075cc3@heri> From: "L.D.Mundy (Editors-Heritage Matters Magazine)" To: References: <508eba36.24d228b2@aol.com> Subject: Re: H-COST: Copyright Myths Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:48:30 +0100 Organization: Wysewords Cooperative MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "L.D.Mundy (Editors-Heritage Matters Magazine)" As there have been so many recent changes ; I would suggest thta nybody wanting to find out what the current situation is to get hold of the current copy of both the Freelance Photographers yearbook and the Writers and Artists yearbook, both excellent although they occasionally seem to differ in opinion; ? With British copyright law anything before 1996 is out of date and 1998 may be abit questionable. The section in the latter on the Copyright Licensing Agency will be of interest to those in the academic world. Dave > -Poster: RobesOf@aol.com > > > << ye-e-e-s... i couldn't help but think of certain purveyors of historic > costume > patterns and costumes whose line drawings of the clothes in question look as > thought they'd been traced off the drawings in the arnold books... and > according to the copyright site, that's obviously a copyright infringement. > >> > > Although, I agree that tracing someone else's art is copyright infringement, > I wanted to point out that this article is referring to written works, not > art. Art copyrights are a little different. In fact, I will make a trip to > the library tonight and post some wonderful excerpts from a book on copyright > laws for artists for all on this list. I seem to remember something written > about changing the art at least 10% will make it a new work of art, a > derivative work (but not the same as mentioned on the website). Also, > clothing designs fall into the utilitarian category, in which the designs > themselves are not able to be copyrighted. The sketch of the design is > copyrighted. > > Like I said, I will get the specifics for all to see, instead of trying to > remember. I admit my memory isn't perfect. Keep an eye out. > > Erica > _________________________________________________________________ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Thu Jul 29 22:55:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA28437 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:55:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02451; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:06:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA29469 for h-costume-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:03:33 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from ares.flash.net (ares.flash.net [209.30.0.41]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA29464 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:03:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from flash.net (p229.amax50.dialup.hou1.flash.net [209.30.106.229]) by ares.flash.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA02822 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:03:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37A123FE.5580906D@flash.net> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:03:10 -0500 From: Charlene Charette X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: H-Costume List Subject: H-COST: OT: Do you have "The medieval horse and its equipment"? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Charlene Charette This is one of the books in the Medieval finds from excavations in London series. I know several people here have the whole series. Can someone who has this book please check to see if there are any horseshoe nails in it? Email me at charlene@flash.net. Thanks! --Charlene -- A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking. _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 30 06:00:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA07237 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:00:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA24882; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 05:12:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA23572 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 05:09:29 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net (svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net [195.92.192.12]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA23562 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 05:09:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from modem58.tweety.pol.co.uk ([195.92.6.186] helo=heri) by svr-a-02.core.theplanet.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 11AAXU-0008Nv-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:09:24 +0100 Message-ID: <004001beda7c$0068f170$ba065cc3@heri> From: "L.D.Mundy (Editors-Heritage Matters Magazine)" To: References: <37A123FE.5580906D@flash.net> Subject: Re: H-COST: OT: Do you have "The medieval horse and its equipment"? Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:48:36 +0100 Organization: Wysewords Cooperative MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "L.D.Mundy (Editors-Heritage Matters Magazine)" > -Poster: Charlene Charette > Can someone who has this book please check to see if there are any > horseshoe nails in it? Email me at charlene@flash.net. > They are constantly referred to in the shoeing section and illustrated. there is also a photo of part of a shoe with two nails;Other than in that context they are not greatly covered. Dave _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 30 08:57:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA12575 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:57:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07049; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:10:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA12158 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:07:35 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from c2smtp.kentlaw.edu (c2smtp.kentlaw.edu [192.148.222.9]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA12150 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:07:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: X-SMF-Message-ID: C36AA13701AA3400 X-SMF-Hop-Count: 1 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:05:00 -0500 From: KATHARINE WHISLER To: h-costume@indra.com X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00102459 Subject: H-COST: RE: Storage and preservation (long post) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: InterChange (Hydra) SMTP v3.51 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: KATHARINE WHISLER A few days ago Eileen Watson wrote asking how to preserve and display some garments from the late 1800's and from WWII. Someone else suggested that the garments be dry cleaned and packaged in a shrink-wrapped wedding preservation box. That poster was correct that dirt on a textile will cause deterioration, and that it is important to pack the garments in an acid free box. However, please reconsider carefully whether you have the garments dry cleaned! Dry cleaning is actually quite hard on textiles. Dry cleaning solution is *a lot* heavier than water, and most dry cleaners tumble the garment with the solution in the same way a front-loading washing machine works. This can abrade the fabric, and because of the weight of the solution, can cause tears just from the tumbling and increased weight of the fabric. Many dry cleaners will also iron the garment with very hot irons and steam afterward. This can also weaken fibers and even shrink them. I would not consider it unless the garment is very strong. The military uniform might make it, but I wouldn't be very sure about any of the others. If you do decide to dry clean, find a dry cleaner who will agree to clean the garments by hand, using clean solution. Depending on how the garments were originally put away by the original owners (i.e. did they clean them before sticking them in the back of the closet) cleaning may not actually be necessary. In many cases, simple vacuuming is enough! Get a section of clean fiberglass window screening from the hardware store (bind the edges somehow) lay it on your garment, and vacuum through it, using an upholstery attachment (not the brush). The screen will prevent the garment from being sucked into the vacuum, and will protect it from abrasion by the vacuum head. This will allow you to vacuum out the dust that has settled on the garment. If the garments are dirty, I'd consult a qualified textile conservator in your area about what to do. If you are near a large city, ask at the historical society or art museum for a recommendation. Please DO NOT have the garments given the wedding gown "heirlooming" treatment. Even assuming that the garment survives dry cleaning, it will not do it any good to be jammed in a box and crunched down. Please note that these boxes aren't holding much of a vacuum to speak of, they are simply airtight. Airtight is bad for textiles. The boxes have not been sealed with any special "clean" air, it is my understanding that it is simply the atmospheric air where the box is packed-- humid air summer air right now, for example. This means that you will have a sealed, damp, dark environment for mold and other nasties to grow in. This is really not worth the money. Instead, get yourself some acid free tissue and acid free boxes and pack the garments yourself. You want all folds supported by tissue so they don't become creases-- old textiles can crack along creases. Don't seal the box airtight, and don't bother with those plastic "textile storage bags" that they sell. Then, store the box somewhere where temperature and humidity are as constant as possible-- within your living quarters rather than in the attic or basement. Under the bed is great. For a very strong garment that doesn't lend itself well to boxing (such as the tailored jacket from the uniform), a well-padded hanger might also be acceptable storage. As for shadowboxes for your non-white non-linen garments: It is understandable that you would want to display these things in your house, but they will last better and longer if you keep them in the dark when you are not looking at them. There is a great little chemical reaction you get between moisture in the air and ultraviolet light-- it makes hydrogen peroxide. This is a big part of the reason things fade when exposed to sunlight. (And why the classic linen bleaching techniques involved laying the fabric out in the dew to be dried by the sun.) UV opaque shadowbox or no shadowbox, I'd consider either 1) only displaying the items some of the time or 2) displaying them in a room that is quite dark except when you are actually in it, like a windowless upstairs hallway. The fur coat presents its own special problems. Fur is subject to attack by moths, and can crack if it dries out. Hot, dry rooms are especially bad. I'd contact a reputable furrier in your area, and if it is already dried out and in bad shape, I'd consider letting them clean and glaze it. I don't know the condition, but it is probably better stored on a well-padded hanger rather than in a box. I hope this all helps. There are a number of useful books on this topic that you might consult, including one by Janet Arnold, and one by Jane Ashelford. Much of this depends on how great the garment is (or if it belonged to an ancestor) and how much you are willing to spend to preserve it. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Sincerely, Katharine Whisler _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 30 09:07:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA12856 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:07:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08235; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:20:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA13985 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:18:08 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA13975 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:18:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.93 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:17:35 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: Embroidery Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:39:34 -0400 Message-ID: <000301beda97$77c88760$780bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <19990728125002.7798.rocketmail@web803.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" You'll have a tough time finding it, and it probably doesn't circulate, but this book is fabulous (in two huge volumes): Shuette or Schutte with an umlaut over the "u." Originallly in German, translated into English: *The Art of Embroidery,* co-authored by Sigrid Muller-Christensen, and translated by Donald King. I think the English publication was Thames and Hudson and published around 1964. Thomasina Beck's book, which has a similar title, is far more readily available, covers Renaissance to 1940's. There are a number of books available showing Elizabethan and Renaissance period stiches, reprints of period "Modelbuchs," with design charts, but no "how to." If you want medieval, that's tougher. There's a little on the web, mostly tapestries and reliquary bags on Richard Wydmarc's pages, and I think he's connected to a webring too which should have more. Do a http://www.metacrawler. search for Wydmarc, medieval embroidery. Hope H. Dunlap > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Sarah Toney > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 8:50 AM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: H-COST: Embroidery > > > > -Poster: Sarah Toney > > I am looking for a good resource book on medieval > embroidery... both patterns and "how-to"... does > anyone have any suggestions on what book I should get? > > Thanks! > > Sarah > > > ____________________________________________________________ _ > Do You Yahoo!? > Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 30 09:24:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13342 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:24:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10106; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:37:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA16918 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:35:17 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu10.smtp.email.msn.com [207.46.181.60]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16896 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:35:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.16 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:34:42 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: pattern out of print Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:40:53 -0400 Message-ID: <000001beda99$d6cf16a0$100bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <37aec197.113159731@smtp-server.austin.rr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" My guess is that is is a Caraco jacket over a basic dress. Or alternatively a caraco over a petticoat. The pattern was a charted design, not a real pattern, with instructions, from the Northern Society of Textiles and Costume in England, called "A Dress of the Revolution Worn to Escape". I wonder if any of our Web friends on the list in England can track down the address and e-mail of the Society? E-mail link to the Victoria and Albert Museum, including the shop I think is available throught the V & A website. If anyplace still carries it, I would think they might. The pattern was taken from a dress in the private collection of the seymour family, whose ancestor Louise Seymour used it in 1793. If you are patient, it is possible to reconstruct the pattern from Janet Arnold's charts in *Patterns of Fashion 1.* On page 24-7, there are five jackets, which taken together, contain many of the details you need. Use the set-in sleeve from one, the method of draping the back from another, etc. On page 30-31, the white quilted silk traveling costume from Snowshill Manor shows a petticoat charted in precisely the shape you need. In addition, the jacket has many of the design elements you need, particularly the method of draping the back and skirts. The polonaises shown on pages 36 to 41 show how the front of the garment might have been constructed. On page 46-47, the 1795-1810 riding habit is high waisted, not what you want, but the vestigial skirt on the back of the jacket is very similar to what you want to achieve. Utilizing this detail, you could sew your petticoat to the lining of your gown, and let this little skirt hang loose over the top. Use the little bustle pad shown, but set at the waistline, to give the little vestigial skirts the poof they need. If you have the picture of the garment from the Amazon Drygoods catalog page 23 or another source, these charts can help you get to where you need to be, but not without trouble. Also, search through the links and post requests on the chat sites at http://www.oldpatterns.com/links.html . Also, at http://www.patternsoftime.com/Catalog34.html, the back of the "middling jacket" and the front of the "caraco" pattern would sort of get you there too. Similar jacket patterns are available at http://www.longago.com/colonial.html. The little vestigial skirt on the back of the jacket/bodice is shown on the back of La Mode Bagatelle jacket at http://www.longago.com/regency.html. This type of travelling suit would be the kind of thing that *might* show up charted in the tailors section of Diderot's Encyclopaedia, as it was a practical long lived style, similar in many ways to a riding habit, which was a tailored garment. If you can get to the volumes in a library it would be fairly easy to search. It was published in France many times starting in 1766. Parts of it have been reprinted by Dover. U of Chicago is slowly putting the whole thing up on the Web, God bless them, but to date there's only a tantalizing few of the 26+ volumes up and no index. Searching is very slow, but often very rewarding. http://tuna.uchicago.edu/forms_unrest/ENC.query.html It is the plates (planches) which will contain the charted garments. Not saying its there, or there yet, for sure, but Diderot's does depict a chart of the corset, the banyan, the sack-back gown, and a number of things like that. Best of Luck Hope H. Dunlap > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of StrangeGirl > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 5:09 PM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: H-COST: pattern out of print > > > > -Poster: rio@austin.rr.com (StrangeGirl) > > On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:47:32 -0700, you wrote: > > > > >-Poster: "Michelle" > > > >I still haven't managed to track down a copy of the pattern > (escape the > >revolution). Alter Years and Amazon no longer have any in stock. > > I tried Hope's idea with the internet search and it > didn't come up there > >either. > > > > Would everyone be so kind as to keep their eyes and ears > open? Please > >let me know if one surfaces somewhere. > > > > Try Lacis! > > If it's the same pattern, and I'm pretty sure it is, they have it in > their non-illustrated online catalog: > SP509 N. SOCIETY: #02 Drsss of Revolution, 1793 14.00 > > Go to http://www.lacis.com/catalog/catalog.htm > click on catalog price list in the upper frame > scroll down to patterns in the side menu frame > click on 'misc patterns' > it's the 4th in the list. > > You may want to call and ask if they have it in stock and if this is > indeed the pattern you are looking for. > > I have a dim memory of the pattern description from reading the > envelope, and I think it is indeed the pattern, or a similar pattern. > > Good luck. > > Margery > "Do you have any files?" > "We're the government, of course we have files." > Millenium > {*to reply take spambegone from my reply-to address*} > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 30 10:56:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA15795 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:56:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22051; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:09:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA06041 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:05:51 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06029 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:05:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sharp-9070- - 208.253.11.212 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:05:19 -0700 From: "Hope H. Dunlap" To: Subject: RE: H-COST: Embroidery Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:39:38 -0400 Message-ID: <000b01bedaa6$86137140$100bfdd0@sharp-9070-> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000301beda97$77c88760$780bfdd0@sharp-9070-> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" In German Schutte's book was published in Leipzig 1927-30, under the title *Gestickte Bildteppishe des Mittelalters.* > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Hope H. Dunlap > Sent: Friday, July 30, 1999 8:40 AM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: RE: H-COST: Embroidery > > > > -Poster: "Hope H. Dunlap" > > You'll have a tough time finding it, and it probably doesn't > circulate, but this book is fabulous (in two huge volumes): > Shuette or Schutte with an umlaut over the "u." Originallly > in German, translated into English: *The Art of Embroidery,* > co-authored by Sigrid Muller-Christensen, and translated by > Donald King. I think the > English publication was Thames and Hudson and published > around 1964. > > Thomasina Beck's book, which has a similar title, is far > more readily available, covers Renaissance to 1940's. There > are a number of books available showing Elizabethan and > Renaissance period stiches, reprints of period "Modelbuchs," > with design charts, but no "how to." If you want medieval, > that's tougher. There's a little on the web, mostly > tapestries and reliquary bags on Richard Wydmarc's pages, > and I think he's connected to a webring too which should > have more. Do a http://www.metacrawler. search for > Wydmarc, medieval embroidery. > > Hope H. Dunlap > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-h-costume@indra.com > [mailto:owner-h-costume@indra.com]On > > Behalf Of Sarah Toney > > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 8:50 AM > > To: h-costume@indra.com > > Subject: H-COST: Embroidery > > > > > > > > -Poster: Sarah Toney > > > > I am looking for a good resource book on medieval > > embroidery... both patterns and "how-to"... does > > anyone have any suggestions on what book I should get? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Sarah > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > _ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Free instant messaging and more at > http://messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > _____ > > To leave this mailing list, send mail to > majordomo@indra.com > > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ _____ > To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com > with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME > _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME From owner-h-costume@indra.com Fri Jul 30 11:16:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA16353 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:16:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by server.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24687; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:28:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA10339 for h-costume-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:26:36 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: net.indra.com: majordom set sender to owner-h-costume using -f Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by net.indra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10326 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:26:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ibm.net (slip129-37-169-195.pq.ca.ibm.net [129.37.169.195]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA62700 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:26:31 GMT Message-Id: <199907301626.QAA62700@out1.ibm.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:24:31 -0400 From: Hilary Doda To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: H-COST: Musketeers X-Mailer: Hilary Doda's registered AK-Mail 3.0b [eng] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-h-costume@indra.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: h-costume@indra.com Status: O -Poster: Hilary Doda A few related questions to the list: Are there patterns available for the musketeer costumes *as seen in* Man in the Iron Mask? (thinking specifically of the black w/ red lining on the Three themselves at the end) Are the musketeer costumes from Man in the Iron Mask anywhere near accurate? Is there information available (webbed or library-available) on the actual Musketeer uniforms, re: fabrics, cut, trim, etc. Thanks in advance! Hilary Doda. ************************************************************************** There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry _________________________________________________________________ To leave this mailing list, send mail to majordomo@indra.com with the message UNSUBSCRIBE H-COSTUME